← Not Skinny But Not Fat
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- [00:01]
Amanda Knox
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:05]
Amanda Hirsch
Welcome back to the Not Skinny But Not Fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast, where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hey, guys. Happy Tuesday. Welcome back to another episode of Not Skinny But Not Fat, the podcast that sounds like it's about weight loss or freaking. I don't know what. What? The Amanda. The Amanda. They came up with this dumbass name that stuck with you forever. Don't hate the player, hate the game. You guys, I am recording this with a sheet mask on that I hope doesn't break me out because I've never used this before. And it is Friday. Right now, we're heading into the weekend. Noah has been home this whole week. For parents, you all know the in between the. The. The. The end of camp and the start of school. Like, the world likes to give you a little test and say, no, you have to deal with your kids. You can't just ship them off to, you know, different. Different activities. And, you know, they have to be home at some point in time. So. So you know what? And I have to be honest, like, I can relate to, like, both sides of parenting. Like, the other day, I went out to dinner with my friend. She made fun of me. She was like, I literally threw up. When you got asked a question, what gives you the most fomo? And you said, not being with my kids, she was like, that was so triggering for me. Like, she was like, I hated that. And I was like, I'm sorry. Like, that's what I felt like. When I answer questions, I really answer the first thing that comes to mind. So when I was asked that, I was like, the last time I felt like, ugh, I wish I was there was when I wasn't with my kids and I saw, like, a picture of my kids or a video of my kids, but I can also go the other way and really relate to memes that are. Like, one just came up that was like, when your kids go back to school and it was like, huge party huge. Like, like, screaming excited. But of course, like, life isn't black and white. There's gray, there's in between. There's feeling two feelings at once and all the things. So I was really dreading this in between time because I remembered from past years how hard it was. Like, when they don't have anything to do and you have to really be like, mommy day camp. And it's hot and it's summer, even though it's not really hot. It was literally like 60 degrees here the other day anyway, but, like, you know, lower your expectation, guys. That's another mantra of mine in life. Like, I was expecting the worst and this week has been the best. We've had so much fun with Noah. His temperament was just the best that it's been, I guess because he's not getting those high energy vibes and going to camp where you're like being rowdy all day and then coming back and having that be a huge kind of shock to your system the night you have to be chill. He's just kind of at this level 5 of Chill all day. And I'm like, I'm obsessed with you. Like, this is so fun. We've had cute lunch dates, brunch dates, like, a little bit of running around time. Just had the best time. So I hope it continues this way, which it won't. When I post that, all of you were like, you're going to jinx yourself. I'm like, yeah, you're right. You know when you enter the right passcode on your iPhone, but it's still like, no, that's incorrect. And you're like, I'm putting in the fucking same number five times and that's the number. Don't you fucking lie to me. Anyway, this sheet mask is making me rowdy. In important news, before we get into today's guest, Millie Bobby Brown Bon Jovi is a mommy mamacita, which I've seen a lot of. So she and her husband, Jake Bon Jovi, son of Jon Bon Jovi, adopted a baby girl, which I feel like is so on brand for Millie. She has a gazillion animals. She adopts them, she fosters them, she cares for them, she does all these things. She has a huge farm. She's just like this mama goose, mama bear, whatever you will call it. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if this post was about, like a baby pig, but it's actually a baby girl. Because they say that. Oh, it's so funny because they write at the end of the announcement, which is so weird because the announcement looks like an ad for, like, an old person home. Like, I don't know why they didn't just, like, put a cute picture of them. I get not showing the baby, but, like, they could just what something. This thing is weird. Go to her profile. It's literally like a weird tree. Anyway, it was funny because at the end they write. And then there were three. Love comma, Millie and Jake Bon Jovi. So I think there were people that thought the name of the baby was Love, like love Millie and Jake. But I think it was just like, like love Amanda. We're smart over her. Anyway, she is 21, which is a baby having a baby. A lot of people are asking how an adoption agency is giving a baby a baby. But like, you know, she's not a, a regular baby. She's a really rich baby. So maybe that matters and maybe her parents said they were helping. We don't know the deal. Okay. What I do know is like what I've seen from her, which feels like she's ready, you know, which feels like she's a mommy. And you know, when you're in the industry from age like 10, you do mature really quickly. These people are around adults all the time. They're not. Listen, when I was 21. No, no, like bitch wasn't ready till 32. Anyway, that was the most important and interesting thing I think this week. By the way. Another important and interesting thing from this week is that I started watch the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. It's on Hulu and I listen this, this whole Amanda Knox case happened in like 2007. She studied abroad in 2007 wherein she was accused of her roommates murder, got imprisoned in freaking Italy for four years. I was. Let's make this about me. I studied abroad in 2009. Like this was all happening. I think Amanda is like around my age. This all I remember living this as most of us do. So seeing this again being on tv, but in the form of a, of a show. She. She is played by Grace Van Patten, who we love Adore from Tell Me Lies by the way. She is stunning in this. She is amazing and the show is so good. And even though we know a lot of the facts, there are a lot of facts we don't know. Especially if you haven't read Amanda Knox's books and got all the details. And again, Grace is just so amazing at portraying her, I think and it really just taking you on this ride of like anxiety and emotional roller coaster. But we already had Grace Van Patten on the pod, so it's not her today, you guys, it is Amanda Knox. Yes, Amanda Knox is here today and we're discussing it all. We're getting into all of that from the insane headlines to her new show, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox now on Hulu. And I'm so excited for you guys to hear this conversation so enjoy. Amanda Knox is here, you guys. And I, I spoke about this this week because I started the show as the world has on Hulu. It's called the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. Grace Van Pen plays you. Stunning. She was here too. She was here right before she left for Budapest.
- [07:35]
Amanda Knox
Oh, really?
- [07:36]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [07:37]
Amanda Knox
Oh.
- [07:37]
Amanda Hirsch
And she was like, I'm. And I was like, oh my God, that's so, so cool. When, when she told us about the project, I was like, that is insane. And what a leap from what she has done and so different. And you'll have to have her back.
- [07:49]
Amanda Knox
On to talk about the whole process because.
- [07:52]
Amanda Hirsch
Wow.
- [07:52]
Amanda Knox
I think that, I mean, you know, I didn't know her personally before all of this. Like I saw that she was, you know, I saw from her previous work that she's very versatile, she was very professional. But like the journey that she had to go on to, to take on this role. Yeah, just the emotional journey of like this very extreme circumstance. These. The worst experience of my life. The best experiences of my life. This wide age range. Like she had to show this like personal evolution from like really young, innocent, you know, 20 year old to like haunted, you know, 35 year old with a mission. And, and then to do it in English and Italian. Like the. She worked her ass off for this role.
- [08:39]
Amanda Hirsch
Wow.
- [08:39]
Amanda Knox
And I'm so proud of her and I hope that she gets all the awards for her work on it because she fricking deserves it. And I feel like if any, like there are so many reasons to watch this show, but like of all of those that I was not like expecting. It's like this is a huge moment for Grace.
- [08:56]
Amanda Hirsch
Like watch her, like watch the story, but watch her performance.
- [08:59]
Amanda Knox
Watch her performance.
- [09:00]
Amanda Hirsch
I'm telling you, I was getting physical anxiety watching her get anxiety. You know, like, I feel like she plays that so well. The, the. The anxious and everyone's screaming at her at the same time. Like it's almost. You feel like you are there.
- [09:17]
Amanda Knox
Well, and that was the whole point. I mean, you're referring to the interrogation scene, which is the, the big scene in the second episode, which is those that have released. Those are the two that have released the first and second episode. And, and I mean talk about just like the emotional journey her character goes on in those two episodes. Like she comes to Perugia just bright eyed, bushy tailed, you know, ready to have the world happen to her. And then the world happens to her and it like bears its weight on her and she's like having like to navigate all of that in A. In a state of, like, confusion and not like. And miscommunication and just awkwardness and, like, she plays all of that so. So well.
- [10:00]
Amanda Hirsch
You almost see the, like. No, she actually doesn't get that this is going this way.
- [10:07]
Amanda Knox
Exactly.
- [10:08]
Amanda Hirsch
Which I was. I'm around your age, and I, like, I studied abroad in Barcelona in 2009. You were in 2007. Like, I lived. We lived your story. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Remember it, thought about it, the press of it all, everyone talking about it, but never were we able to see it from really, your point of view. And I think that's what's so special about the show. Yeah, but seeing her play those moments of. Yeah, because she didn't think. No, it would have. She had no idea until. She doesn't have any idea. Like, the. What the show portrays at this moment is she doesn't even know why she thinks she's a witness until. Yes, I'm saying she. And it's you.
- [10:50]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, Yeah, I know, but I've also. I've also had to do that, like, different. Like, this, like, break myself off from, like. Okay, yes, Amanda, in this moment is like, I can now. It's really nice because I can have, like, Grace stand in for me and my brain sometimes. And it's like, the relief of having to just, like, relive the actual memories. It sort of takes the edge off.
- [11:09]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [11:10]
Amanda Knox
Because I can be like, yes, like, Grace, Amanda, me, walks into this room with a completely different idea about what is happening. She's just answering a few questions while she's waiting for her boyfriend to be done answering a few questions. She's been doing the same thing, answering those same questions over and over again throughout, you know, five days of questioning, all because, you know, she's trying to help the police figure out what happened to her roommate. She has no idea what happened. You know, like, she doesn't know, and she has no idea that she's about to enter into a trap. And it's this psychological journey of, like, coming to that realization over and over and sort of, like, pushing back and. And being like, wait, wait, why. Why are you talking to me like this? You know, like. And not understanding why they're angry at her. They're angry at her because I don't speak Italian well enough.
- [12:01]
Amanda Hirsch
Like, the language. As of. First of all, I feel like that adds to the anxiety, which I'm sure was. This was a. Obviously what. What happened, but also a choice and to really throw us into it.
- [12:12]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [12:13]
Amanda Hirsch
Like, that's what's happening. You're being screamed at Italian. You don't understand what they're saying. Then there was a translator somewhere saying it in English. And you're trying to think, like. And that's so. By the way, that comes across greatly. But that bugged me. I was like, get. First of all, at the beginning. Get her a translator. Yeah, get her a translator. Like, yeah, how are you expecting. But it was that perugia at that time, we're like, sorry, we don't speak English.
- [12:36]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Even though this is. This is not Rome.
- [12:38]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [12:39]
Amanda Knox
You know, this isn't the kind of. You know, this isn't the big police force. This is a small town.
- [12:44]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [12:44]
Amanda Knox
And this is the. This is the people who are there. These are the law enforcement authority figures. Like, there are only so many people who actually speak English. And so especially when they call you in the middle of the night, there's only so many people who are going to be awake to call to speak English. And clearly, I mean, I think the thing that also the show really shows, that was unbeknownst to me at the time, is that the police were targeting me from very early on, but in this sort of, like, unspecified way. Like, they hadn't fully wrapped their minds around, like, what they thought had happened. They just were very convinced early on that I knew something that I wasn't saying. And so they thought, if we can just put her in the right conditions, under the right amount of pressure, we're going to crack her and we're going to get the truth out of her. And that's what they're thinking. And in the meantime, I'm just like, I literally have no idea what happened to my roommate. And I'm telling you everything I could possibly know. And I don't understand why that doesn't seem to be enough for you. Like, I'm giving you everything I have, and there's nothing more to give. And until they just convince me that I'm crazy, like, it's just.
- [13:55]
Amanda Hirsch
And by the way, this happens. Like, my husband is super into, you know, like, so many people, like, murder mysteries and crime junkies and all those things. So I've watched so many, like, documentaries with him and so many interrogational moments. And this is the thing. This wasn't just a you thing. This happens where they're trying to pin it on somebody, lead it that way, crack them through this, like, intense, you.
- [14:21]
Amanda Knox
Know, coercive, Coercive questioning process. It involves lies and involves gaslighting. Yeah, no, it's that, like, of all of the scenes in this whole series, I feel like that is the scene where my advocate self is coming through because I'm like, there's been so much resistance on the part of just, I think the general public, but especially law enforcement, to recognize that, like, what happens behind closed doors and interrogation rooms is not okay. Like, it's not actually doing justice and it's, it's thwarting the course of justice. And what. And there are very common sense, like, things that we can do to prevent the kind of thing that happened to me from happening. And like, for those who think that this was just a thing that happened in Italy and the exact same kind of interrogation techniques happen here in the United States. And so it was really, really important for me. And obviously everyone that I worked with, you know, K.J. steinberg, the creator and showrunner, she did so much research and she talked to so many experts and just to get like a sense of like, trying to understand what is the psychology, not just of the person who's being interrogated, who's being led to imagine alternative realities and like, being led to believe that these alternative realities might actually be her real memories instead of the ones that she thinks are her real, like this whole, like, maybe black. Yeah, this whole psychological, like, mind games that are being played. But also, like, what is the psychology of the interrogators? How are they leading themselves to believe a story? And how does that story become this boulder that gains momentum as it rolls faster and faster down the hill?
- [15:59]
Amanda Hirsch
Have you connected with other people that have been in your situation?
- [16:03]
Amanda Knox
Oh, 100%, yeah. In fact, I have a podcast called Hard Knocks and I've done. If you go to amandanox.com, i've done a whole big series about false confessions where I've interviewed other people who have gone through the exact same experience.
- [16:15]
Amanda Hirsch
And so you get common thing.
- [16:16]
Amanda Knox
It's a very common thing. And like, weirdly much more in, like, high stakes cases, you'd think that maybe, like, if you're accused of a lesser crime, like, and this is an issue with like the guilty plea sort of situation where somebody is like, well, no one's going to believe me, so I might as well just say I'm guilty and I'll just get it over with, it's a minor crime, whatever. But, like, you think that in a case where you're being accused of murder and like your life is at stake, you would never, you know, implicate yourself. But no, like, that's when, that's when the police really start using this, like, very Pressured technique to make you feel like you are crazy or there's no way to escape, and you just have to tell them what they want to hear.
- [17:01]
Amanda Hirsch
Tell me why you decided to do the show now or how it came up or has it come up before and you didn't want to do it or tell us.
- [17:09]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, so, I mean, ever since I came home from prison, I've had people come to me and say, your story is insane. We would love to tell your story. And I resisted for a really long time because it didn't really feel like my story. Right. Like, what. What happened? You know, two young women go to study abroad in Prugia, Italy. They're, you know, 20, 21, and only one of them survives the end. Like, what a horrible. Like what a horrible story that has. That says nothing about both my roommate Meredith and me. Like, it's just a bad thing that happened to us, and only one of us got to live to tell the tale and is, you know, now living with survivor's guilt for it. You know, like, that does. That didn't feel like anything that said anything about me as a person. And so I didn't really feel comfortable participating in anything because I was just, you know, a victim of this circumstance that. And got twisted into a villain. But that was just another way that I was victimized. And so it was just. It just felt wrong, and it felt just too, like, trauma Y. And it wasn't until I started really processing what this experience meant to me in my real life and how I was feeling propelled forward by it, and I started making decisions. Like, the decision to reach out to my prosecutor and to, like, try to make a connection and try to understand him, was when I felt like I truly was making the first move in my adult life in response to this story, a thing that really said something about who I was. I was taking action. I was not just reacting to a bad situation. I was taking action.
- [18:55]
Amanda Hirsch
Tell me about your decision to do that.
- [18:57]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [18:58]
Amanda Hirsch
To reach out to your prosecutor.
- [19:00]
Amanda Knox
Well, and something I think the. The series does really well and something that was really important to me and Monica Lewinsky, who's executive producer on the show, is where this show is exploring the. The long tail of trauma. Like, the trauma isn't just, like, the overwhelming thing that happened in this moment. It's this thing that you carry with you into your life long, long afterwards as you're processing it and you're trying to make sense of it. And, like, one of the things that I was really tortured by in the aftermath, you Know, even after being like, vindicated and freed and no longer hunted was just like, why? Why did this ha. Like, and this is the question that any person who's been hurt asks, why? Why did you hurt me? Why me? Yeah, you know, like, I had. Like, there's no reason for. You have to have believed that I had anything to do with this crime. Like, truly, it was a huge mistake. Like, what, what. What was going on in your mind? How did you look at a girl who had no motive and no precedent and no evidence that put, like, put me at the crime scene? Like, why did you think there's my rapist and murderer? Like, why, when there was clear evidence of who actually committed this crime? And I didn't want to subscribe to some of the answers to that question that were coming my way, which was there. The law enforcement and prosecution in. In Perugia is corrupt and evil, and they don't care what the truth is. All they care about is their reputation. And. And so, like, they're sitting there watching an innocent girl, you know, suffer these horrible consequences, and they just don't care. Like, I didn't believe that was true. Yeah, I didn't believe that was true. I just, I. I do not think that there's that many psychopaths in the world.
- [20:46]
Amanda Hirsch
What was your hunch? Like, what was. What was your guess?
- [20:50]
Amanda Knox
My guess. And I think that this leads to why the show is truly relevant to this day. Because I think it's. It's a really important lesson that I learned is that there are people who have. Who believe in themselves and believe in their perception of reality so much that they are willing to impose that reality on other people and cause harm in the process, but feel justified and righteous at the same time. Like, you can have the very best intentions based upon your context and your perspective and your ideology and try to enforce that reality on other people and in the process harm them. And I think that that is something that we do, like, we see in the world all the time. Like, if you think of just like, how our, you know, our country is to this day, like, it feels like we are living in a world where there are people who have completely alternate realities that they are living in, where the. We can't even agree on what the facts are anymore must, much less an interpretation of the facts or how to approach those facts. So how do you have a conversation with somebody who believes that the world is the opposite of what you believe? And how do you. Like, how do you derive truth out of that? How do you. How do you establish what truth is in a world that is just flooded with misinformation. And. And I think a perspective that is derived is like a motivated perspective.
- [22:24]
Amanda Hirsch
So you think that they. He really thought his truth within himself is that he was right. So he believed it?
- [22:32]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [22:32]
Amanda Hirsch
Wasn't like he didn't believe and he was just like, let's pin it off.
- [22:35]
Amanda Knox
He believed it.
- [22:36]
Amanda Hirsch
He believed it.
- [22:37]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [22:37]
Amanda Hirsch
He believed it. We'll be right back after the break. Back to school means schedules, long list of to dos, Getting your kid ready for school, getting your household ready. The whole energy shifts, the vibe shifts. It's a new school year. You could check wellness off that to do list with Ollie. Ollie is the number one kids supplement brand that offers effortless solutions for you and your family. They have a kids a multiplus probiotic and it's a tasty essential that kids love. You can also make bedtime a breeze with kids sleep. This is gentle support that helps them rest. Ali has parents back with multivitamins that provide key nutrients for their immune system and more. If you need help shutting down at night sleep gummies will help you get a peaceful rest. Let Ali support you and your crew this season. Shop@ollie.com or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the fda. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Sometimes I don't get it. Like, I get, you know what, I get it. I get that you guys are sometimes skeptical and you get sold a lot of things and told a lot of things. But if somebody is telling you do this for free. Nobody's asking you to buy anything. But if you buy something, use this thing so you could get money back. And then you don't do it. Then I'm just like, I don't got. I don't care. I'm of course talking about Rakuten. Because when you shop with Rakuten, you can stack cash back on top of sales, on top of deals at your favorite stores, like Ulta, like Fenty, so many, like Adidas. It's so easy to use. You get your cash back sent to you either through PayPal, Ching. Or a physical check. If you're dramatic and you want to feel like I'm going to check in the mail, the idea is really simple. Okay? The stores pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers like you. Rakuten shares that money with you as cash back. So all your favorite stores think fashion, beauty, electronics, home essentials, travel, dining, and so much more. Okay? And you just use Racket in to shop. Sign up is absolutely free and takes seconds. Guys, 17 million Rakuten members are saving, okay? In fact, They've earned over 4.6 billion in cash back. So get in on it. Get in on it. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. That's Rakuten. R A K U t e n rakuten.com I just got a message today. True story of a follower who was like, fine. I ordered from Quince. Like, hi, hello. How are you? Thanks for telling me. And I got what she's talking about because I'm always telling you about Quinn's and convincing you and trying to be like guys if you want good stuff. And if you want to like refresh your wardrobe, September is coming up. I'm really all about lately, like getting rid of the old so I can really buy the new. And what I love about Quince is this isn't like a fast fashion vibe. This is really luxury. High quality essentials. They are just at better prices. There are half the cost of similar brands. You could get chic cashmere and cotton sweaters that started just $40. Washable silk tops, classic denim, really timeless styles. I actually just ordered these clogs that I'll tell you about soon when I get them, but they look so cute. They're from Quince and they're kind of giving like a Birkenstock vibe, but they're like a cream color. I've been really, really eyeing them. Like, you guys know I've been buying from Quince from forever from linen tops, linen pants, cashmere tops. My bed is from Quint. I have luggage from Quint. Like, I just love Quint. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quint. Go to quint.com not skinny for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quint.q-u I n c e.com not skinny. To get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quin.com not skinny. Hi, I'm Caroline Stanbury, star of the Real Housewives of Dubai. Entrepreneur, wife and mother of three, once divorced and now remarried to a much younger man. Uncut and Uncensored with Caroline Stanbury follows me as I live my life unapologetically and shows you that there is life after 40. I discuss everything from relationships, health, wellness, business, parenting, friendships. I'm here to let you know that not only is there a life after divorce, but you have the power to make it your best one yet. Just like I did listen to all new episodes every Wednesday, anywhere you get your podcasts. And we're back. I asked you before, like, what were, you know, the. The versions of the truth out there? What were people saying? What were people thinking? What was your hunch? Sexism.
- [27:39]
Amanda Knox
Sure. And yeah. Yes. So now we're getting into context, right? So, like, now we have to recognize that there's cultural differences and there are diff. Like, you know, there's misogyny in our culture as well. But, like, there's a certain flavor of misogyny within the Italian culture that I just was unfamiliar with and unprepared for. It meant that when I, as a young American girl, especially from, like, progressive Seattle, show up in this small, very Catholic, very traditional kind of town, I stick out a little bit like a sore thumb without even realizing it and not understanding how certain ways, like, certain energy that I put out or certain ways that I communicate are not going to be received the way that I normally experience them. Received.
- [28:27]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [28:27]
Amanda Knox
And so. And then, of course, there's the language barrier and there's the. The experience barrier. I mean, if you just look at me and my prosecutor, who are like, these huge characters in the show, like, one thing that we've really tried so hard to do is show not just my context, but his. You do what is his world? What is. What is going on in, like, what is informing the lens through which he sees reality. And it's a very different world and a very different culture and context than what I am.
- [28:59]
Amanda Hirsch
Like, you're doing him kind of like a. You're doing, like, a nice deed for him that you're doing this. Do you know what I mean?
- [29:06]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I feel like I'm doing the ethical thing. Like, nice or not? Yes. Yes, it's nice because it could have.
- [29:13]
Amanda Hirsch
Just been like, he's an. You know, he's missed out. But you're right. The show really does show him his family, like, things that have happened in his past to kind of. It's sort of like you're looking for a reason. Like, again, we're looking for the why.
- [29:27]
Amanda Knox
Like, and I'm looking for the truth, right? Like, I feel like the world is flooded with easy answers that are just not true. And so what? What does it cost? Like, what. What do you have to do to really confront the truth? And sometimes it means putting aside all of your pain in order to try to see someone clearly, which doesn't mean that you don't stand up for yourself, and it doesn't mean that you don't confront that person with a reality that they may not be ready, unwilling and prepared for, but you can do that and you can stand up for yourself while also being kind and giving the person the benefit of the doubt, which was the very thing that I didn't get in the first place.
- [30:10]
Amanda Hirsch
It was shocking, the moment in the show where the woman walks in that's working with the prosecutor and she's like, bad news. Like, the only DNA at the crime scene was not. Was Rudy Good days. And it was like having her say, like, bad news, not good news, not.
- [30:29]
Amanda Knox
Oh, interesting.
- [30:30]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [30:30]
Amanda Knox
Oh, this should inform us.
- [30:32]
Amanda Hirsch
Right, Right. This will move us in. To the, you know, in the truth. In. In the direction of the truth. It was like, oh, this doesn't align with our theory.
- [30:41]
Amanda Knox
Yes. And this is going to be bad for us.
- [30:43]
Amanda Hirsch
And this is going to be bad because we already spun this whole. This whole sex orgy, whatever.
- [30:49]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I love that you picked up that. Those. That, like a minor thing, because that.
- [30:53]
Amanda Hirsch
I was like, that's like a.
- [30:55]
Amanda Knox
That would. That is good writing. Right, right. That's when, like, so much is conveyed in such an offhand remark.
- [31:02]
Amanda Hirsch
So much. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. I love Inside Baseball behind the scenes, like, hearing your story, obviously, but also how you made your story. By the way, you were executive producer as well, so how involved were you in the.
- [31:18]
Amanda Knox
Oh, I mean, soup to nuts? I was involved. And I mean, I have to, again, like, this experience could have been a very different experience. Like, Hollywood is not typically involving sources with, like, not giving sources quite the opportunity that I was given today. I mean, I feel like, you know, Monica, obviously, Monica Lewinsky, is forging the path forward. But I think even so, I feel like I was given more creative input than anyone in my position has ever been given creative input. And that's because my partners, you know, K.J. steinberg, the creator and showrunner, Warren Littlefield, the lead producer, you know, all the people at Hulu and Disney, they really. Like, I could sit down with them and convey, like, this is what's important to me. This is why this scene, you know, should be the way it is. And I feel like I was really valued as a creative partner. So, like, from anything from casting decisions to talking about how do we break this story, to being on set and giving, you know, notes to, you know, all of that, I. I felt very creatively embraced and very involved, you know, giving notes on all of the, like, all the different versions of the episodes. I've seen every single one.
- [32:32]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [32:33]
Amanda Knox
And so to finally arrive here, I get to have the satisfaction not just of watching the world live my experience, but also watching the world, like enjoy the creative work that was, that was put into it. Like, I can't tell you how satisfying it was at the premiere to like be in a room full of strangers, also freaking nerve wracking, but who are responding emotively to, you know, the jokes that were put in and, you know.
- [33:03]
Amanda Hirsch
And, and the little moments like the little one we just talked about. But I was on TikTok and that, you know, it's probably wild for you because it's such a, you know, serious topic, such a, an important part of our kind of collective history in our core memory. But seeing people pick up on like the minutia. Like I saw this girl do like a green screen, you know, tick tock about the show and she was like talking about the moment with the blood on the, on the bath rug. And she was like, did she just say, I'm not gonna clean her period blood? You know, like, so she was making light of that moment, like, duh, like, why would you clean your roommate's period blood?
- [33:43]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [33:44]
Amanda Hirsch
So people were kind of enjoying that moment of. Did that actually happen? Did you, did you actually say that?
- [33:51]
Amanda Knox
I mean, yeah, sure. I mean, like when I, again, like I was being asked these questions over and over and it felt like every single choice that I had made that morning was being always called into question. Like, oh, why did you go into your house when you saw that the door was open? Like, even just something like that, Like, I would say, oh, I went. Like I came home, I saw the door was open and I went inside and to check and see if like, oh, is anyone here?
- [34:15]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [34:16]
Amanda Knox
And they were like, well, why would you ever go into your house when the door is open? It's like, well, what do you mean? Like, I didn't, I wasn't expecting there to be a murder inside. Like, I had no idea. Like, that's just. I feel like it was one of the things that the show does really well is it also shows how when you do not have all of the information, how that changes the way you approach a situation. So it's like for the police to say, well, now we know that there's a murder in there. Now we're going to judge your behavior based upon our knowledge that there's a murder in there. Well, you're not putting yourself in my shoes. Like, I'm a 20 year old kid who's never had anything bad happen to me in my, in My life. When I see a front door is open, I just assume that someone accidentally left the front door open. I don't assume that something bad is happening. Like, it's just a completely different mindset. And when you're. And I can, like, and I can put myself in the police's shoes and think, well, they spend their every. They live and breathe every single day with the worst of human experiences. They see all of the bad stuff and they assume always the worst of everyone. And that's just not who I was.
- [35:24]
Amanda Hirsch
Are you, like, now, like, have you changed in that way? Like, do you think of situations through that lens?
- [35:31]
Amanda Knox
Good question. I mean, I think the. Yes. Like, I'm not there. What. And I think the show does a really incredible job of, of doing this is showing how I ha. I am changed from this experience. I am no longer just the, like, Disney princess version of myself that I was when I went to Italy and that a part of me, like, did not survive the experience. Right. A part of me didn't get to come home. And I had to then evolve as a human being with this, like, this, this darkness that had entered into my life. And I tried not to let that darkness completely take over me. And it was almost like that. That version of me that just really believed in the goodness of the world is. Is reasserting itself, but from a. Also a deep place of like, grief and mourning. So, yeah, I, I, the. The person I am today is a much more reflective and sad. Like, sadness is a big, like, you know, I loved watching Inside out and like, you know, joy was absolutely at the, at the reins when I was on my way to Perugia, Italy. And I think that for a very long time, sadness then was. Took the reins of my life and now they're sort of holding hands and at the reins together. And I feel like a much better person for that. I feel like I'm a much more effective person in the world for that because I also understand. I understand in a way that I did not understand people's pain and like, and that makes me also really receptive to the pain of everyone who experienced this, like, perfect storm of a tragedy.
- [37:31]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah, right.
- [37:32]
Amanda Knox
Like, I'm not just acutely aware of my own pain. Like, I'm acutely aware of everyone's. And that's something that was really important for me in the making of this show is it's like, one, I don't want to cause more pain, and two, I want to honor the pain that has been experienced because it's real and the Way that this story has been told for so long has been just so shallow and exploitative and scandalous. And that's not like at the store. At the heart of the story are real people who yes, lived a very extreme experience and some of them did not survive. But like they're real people and they're still like the majority of us are still living with the consequences of choices that were made out of, you know, fragile egos and, and miss, you know, not complete understandings of the scenario. Like I think it's really important for people to know how much we didn't know at the very beginning.
- [38:31]
Amanda Hirsch
I remember obviously living this and watching it on the news and you know, one of the biggest like accusations of the public was like the way you like behaved around the, the police officers at first. And Grace does this on, on the show as well. It's like the yoga and the police station or the, the kissing Rafaeli outside that the police kind of raised an eyebrow. How do you like today sitting here? Are you mad at Amanda? 20 year old Amanda? Like why, like if you didn't have. Because I'm just thinking of me like how I would, you know, self talk and, and blame myself. Like, why'd you kid, like do you connect to that moment of what you were doing and ever think if I didn't do, if I didn't have these like weird moments of maybe acting not like people expected, maybe this wouldn't have snowballed this way? No, no.
- [39:27]
Amanda Knox
I mean I, I used to give myself a lot harder of a time before when the whole world was still, I mean in some ways the whole world. Well, not the whole world. In some ways some people still victim. Blame me for what happened and say like, well even if you had nothing to do with your roommate's murder, you were basically asking for it like by the way that you were acting. And like there are, there's a contingency of people who assert that, but I just know that that's not true. Like I wasn't actually acting like a guilty person. Like there was a guilty person who did act in a very guilty way by fleeing the country.
- [40:06]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [40:06]
Amanda Knox
And assuming a false identity like that. You know, like by throwing away his, you know, all his clothes and all the evidence of having committed this crime. Like that's guilty behavior. Being comforted by my boyfriend, stretching after hours of questioning on hard plastic chairs. This is not guilty behavior. I feel like instead what I've really come to recognize is that and this is something we try to really show in the show is it's like you see what you want to see and you can, especially in a world that loves finding fault in women. If you just look at any of our behavior, you're going to find something you don't like. You're going to find something that when you look through the filter of your fault finding filter, you're going to say, oh, I would not have done that, or, oh, this. I'm going to like, impose some like, oh, she's kissing her boyfriend because she doesn't care about her roommate. It's like, no, maybe she's in shock and she does very much care and her boyfriend is responding to the fact that she is looking like a deer in headlights and is trying to like, bring her back and comfort her. Like, I feel like the world was very, very primed from past experience.
- [41:15]
Amanda Hirsch
Look at us now.
- [41:16]
Amanda Knox
We're even worse than women. Yeah. I mean, and, and like to like just cherry pick little moments of people's lives and say, oh, let's find fault in her for this reason. I mean, to this day, you know, like, even just like, I, I mean, I can't imagine Daily Mail, you know, talking about the premiere and like they took one photo of me like, you know, laughing with my, with my husband and being like, look at her laughing her ass off at the, you know, the premiere.
- [41:41]
Amanda Hirsch
And it's like the Daily Mail, you.
- [41:42]
Amanda Knox
Know, so it's just like this. I'm so like used to people trying to find food fault in me.
- [41:50]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [41:50]
Amanda Knox
And I'm just not buying it anymore. I'm just not. I'm like, so not like you reach a level. Obviously it is, but it's just like.
- [41:59]
Amanda Hirsch
You know, I mean, the thing is now I'm thinking this is 2007. Maybe there was Facebook.
- [42:04]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So yes, there was. There was Facebook, but it was like super early. Was like maybe like iPhone came out that year. The first ever iPhone. So social media is absolutely at its infancy. The tabloid media, this traditional media, is in this crisis point where they're trying to retain attention because it's being dispersed now online and they don't know, like their whole economic structure is being called into question. And then all of a sudden, this perfect little story that they can just exploit the crap out of.
- [42:36]
Amanda Hirsch
This was like a tabloid, this was moment.
- [42:38]
Amanda Knox
This was a tabloid moment. And I think an example of how media was using a story to try to salvage itself and justify itself, but at the expense of the truth.
- [42:51]
Amanda Hirsch
You know, Amanda, it really makes me think about how much has not changed today because the Amber Heard of it all. I mean, so many other not, not exact, you know, cases and what happened. But the villainization of women, the media. I mean, I couldn't imagine if social media was where it is today with the tick tocks and the Instagram. How. I mean, who knows? Maybe they would have Karen Reed. I mean, maybe they would have Karen Reed's style, like, helped you and been on your side. You never know.
- [43:25]
Amanda Knox
I mean, and even then at the time, like, it was this early stages of like, the, the Internet, like, fracturing into saying, like, into different parts and like, some people just like, odiously hated me and were just maliciously going after me and other people were just like, you know, defending me and like, really just doggedly, like, gathering the evidence and trying to, like, convince the side. But it was like a really, like the first stages of those. Like, there wasn't the term echo chamber back in the day, but now that's like a term that we all know and we're all familiar with, and that was happening in this case. And so I think this case helps us reflect upon how those things emerge, but also how do we try to unravel them. How do we, how do we unspin out of our, like, how do we build bridges between these seemingly opposing, like, opposite and impossible factions and find common ground? And like, that's the journey that I, Amanda, character, goes on after having experienced this whole horrible adversarial scenario.
- [44:33]
Amanda Hirsch
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Check them out in stores today. Additional terms and conditions apply. The code is not skinny 30 when you go to buy hard.com and we're back. What is the best thing that has happened since the show came out? Did you connect with anybody?
- [51:04]
Amanda Knox
Well, it's been super recent.
- [51:07]
Amanda Hirsch
With the screeners. A little Bit. So I'm, like, living. You're right. Only two episodes are out by this time this comes out, there might be four, but has anything. I'm wondering if you connected with anybody maybe that you haven't since it happened.
- [51:22]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I've honestly been, like, on the hook promoting.
- [51:25]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [51:26]
Amanda Knox
So I feel like I'm. I'm actually headed home tomorrow, and I. I feel like that's when I'm gonna have a time to settle.
- [51:32]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [51:33]
Amanda Knox
And take in. I mean, I'm very happy for the actors and, like, my creative partners that people seem to be really recognizing how, like, how bold this show is as well. Like, this is. This show, like, breaks the mold of true crime. It breaks the mold of biopic. It's. It's, like, took some really, like, you know, strong, you know, swings at, like, creative choices that I think are really good. And. And so I hope. I want. I want us, like, see how people absorb it and. And, like, appreciate that, like, this is attempting to do something much more than what you would expect a show like this to do.
- [52:17]
Amanda Hirsch
Do you see yourself continuing in this world of, like, making.
- [52:21]
Amanda Knox
Oh, yes.
- [52:22]
Amanda Hirsch
Oh, yeah.
- [52:22]
Amanda Knox
I mean, now I'm like, four years of executive producing this show. I've been working on this show for four years.
- [52:27]
Amanda Hirsch
Wow.
- [52:28]
Amanda Knox
And I've learned so much. Like, again, KJ Steinberg really took me under her wing, really supported me, really. I mean, I co wrote the final episode with her and. And then, you know, Warren has been. Warren Littlefield has been, like, mentoring me and my husband throughout this entire process. And so we've learned so much, and we really enjoy the process of telling stories. And, like, it would be awesome if I could help someone else tell their story or it would be awesome if, like, I could inhabit another person's, like, identity for a while instead of being so, like, deeply entrenched in my own.
- [53:07]
Amanda Hirsch
Are you done telling this story? Is this the, Like.
- [53:12]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I don't know, because, like, it's a living thing in me. It's still evolving in me. So I feel like it just really depends upon what happens and how. I mean, again, because, like, trauma is a thing that you carry with you your entire life. And so in a way, this. This experience will inform me.
- [53:29]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [53:29]
Amanda Knox
My whole life. And it will inform me as a storyteller my whole life. Do I know what that's going to look like down the road? Not necessarily. But, like, I feel like the one other thing that's really interesting about this story is there's so many things to unpack. Like, if you want to focus on one thing, like, if you want to just focus on the misogyny, like, you can, like, go down the rabbit hole. If you want to focus on, you know, the interrogation, you can go down the rabbit hole. If you want to talk about, like, you know, what is it like to be abroad and, you know, different, you know, like, the clash of cultures, you can go down the rabble. So, like, there's so many different ways that I have over the years processed this story from so many different angles. But again, like, I think that this also is a show that is so definitive in a way, and so, I don't know, we'll have to see. I'm excited also to pursue other stories is the thing.
- [54:22]
Amanda Hirsch
You're so right about the show having these different facets. Because even for me, all those little things that. Amanda, Amanda here, Amanda there. Is being asked. And if you're looking at her from a guilty lens, then it's like, why was her phone off? Why did she answer? But what the show does so well, I feel like, is show, like, you know, the scene of her shutting off her phone, and you're like, that's completely normal. Especially before smartphones and all that stuff. Like, right. Like, I don't think I studied abroad. I didn't have a phone. I was calling my mom from, like, a card somewhere. Like, so this is international, too. Who's paying for international?
- [55:01]
Amanda Knox
Exactly.
- [55:02]
Amanda Hirsch
But when you showed that, like, oh, my God, my boss, you know, didn't. Shutting off my phone. I don't want my dad to bother me. So it was like, oh, duh, you know, or like we talked about before, you walking into the. To the apartment and not thinking about why it was open. By the way, guys, this show has seeped into. And I have to tell this really quickly into my soul and brain, because last night, after I've been watching the show, I forgot that I put my son asleep in my room because he had asked. He's like, can I sleep in your room? Yes. Forgot was on the phone later at night with, like, my sister. I'm screaming on the phone, going to my room, turning on the light, going to pee with the door open, whatever, whatever. And I'm like, no. But I look over, I see my. My son sleeping on the bed, like, snoring. Because they get to an age, you guys, where they can sleep through anything.
- [55:49]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [55:50]
Amanda Hirsch
And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so fudgeing. How did I not pay attention? So of course I think of Amanda Knox, because I'm watching the show and thinking of her because you guys showed that moment. All those moments like getting in shower, tippy toeing out, blow dryer, see the poop. And I. I felt like I saw an Amanda knocker. She was in that moment because I was like, it would be like, are you okay? Yeah. How did you walk into the room, not see your son sleeping, turn on the light, go pee with the door open, scream on the phone. All that to say is not only the show really good, it really took over me because that's when I get into something, then it lives with me, you know, And I'm like thinking of her in the moment that I'm.
- [56:32]
Amanda Knox
Thank you for empathizing. But yeah, you're right. Like, here we are. And this is how this experience is so universal and the story is so universal, is it's like we're all going about our lives and we're not just seeing the world clearly. We have our certain set of expectations as we approach every situation. And we don't always have all the information because we're just going about our lives. And I remember there's this really beautiful moment that KJ wrote in the first episode that was hinting at what was to come for Amanda. And it's when she's walking home from Rafael's house. She hasn't yet discovered, you know, she's on her way home to discover that it's a crime scene now. Right. And she's just singing to herself, la la la la. And then boom, she almost gets hit by a moped. And it's just. And then she's just like, huh. And then goes back, you know, like. Because you're not expecting to get hit by a moped that day. And then you don't. And so you're like, oh, all right, never mind.
- [57:36]
Amanda Hirsch
All right.
- [57:36]
Amanda Knox
You know, like, it's just like you're just in a completely different momentum.
- [57:40]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [57:41]
Amanda Knox
All of us are bringing to every situation our own momentum. And sometimes that. That leads to a horrific and horrible crash.
- [57:50]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [57:51]
Amanda Knox
And that's what happened in this case. And the untangling and. And trying to like, heal the wounds of that incident of these people who, like, ran into each other in all the wrong ways.
- [58:04]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [58:05]
Amanda Knox
Is part of what this show is attempting to do.
- [58:08]
Amanda Hirsch
I know it's really important to, you know, remember, obviously, that this happened to a lot of people, happened to you, happened to Meredith, who is no longer with us. But obviously, because you're sitting here, I want to ask you, you know, it's so easy, like we said things happen in life. You're walking down the street, you could get hit by that moped and fucking.
- [58:26]
Amanda Knox
That's it.
- [58:27]
Amanda Hirsch
And that's it. And that's. And that's life. Like, things happen. People are in car accidents. Like, oh, if I didn't stop for gas at that one gas station, I wouldn't have been. So how do you wreck. Because you've. It's been a long time. How do you reconcile that? Like, why did this happen to me? How did this. If I didn't go to Perugia, if I didn't pick that flat? Like, how do you do that to kind of get out of the. Of the loop?
- [58:49]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I think that I tend to lean on gratitude for what I have at. To, like, as a reminder. Because, like, again, like, the way that you could. The way I've. I've felt I've been able to approach this scenario so that it doesn't feel so, like, personally harmful is. It's like I was in the middle of a natural disaster. And this natural. Like, I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a natural disaster happened, which was, you know, this young man who was spiraling out of control and aggressive towards women, broke into our house and like, talk about wrong place at the wrong time. My roommate, who did everything right, who, like, never walked home alone, like. Like that. But that bothers me to this day. Like, the reality that in life you can do everything right and still get hit by a freaking train.
- [59:44]
Amanda Hirsch
Right? Like, it's not like you didn't look both ways. No, exactly.
- [59:49]
Amanda Knox
And. And so, like, stuff will happen to us and there is no way to necessarily prepare for it.
- [59:57]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [59:57]
Amanda Knox
If you survive it, how do you keep it from diminishing you? How do you take ownership over who you become in the aftermath instead of allowing, like, the hurt to own you? How do you own the hurt? And that's been my personal journey and something that, you know, gratitude has helped me. You know, you speak about a car crash. Like, literally, like two days ago, a very, very good friend of mine got into a very, very bad car crash and called me and like, almost, you know, almost died and is. And is very much like. Like, I'm, like, they called me to be like, how do I. How do I deal with this? Because they were like, I didn't even know they were in the hospital like, a month anyway. So it's just like this whole finally sort of wrapping their heads around the fact that, like, I almost died. How do I deal with that? And it's like, well, you're alive, right? You're alive. And like, I know that you're in pain and I know that there's a lot of struggle that now is ahead of you, but you're alive.
- [61:00]
Amanda Hirsch
You're alive.
- [61:01]
Amanda Knox
And like, what a gift to be alive. And. And so like, hold on to what you still have. And also know that like, the pain doesn't exist forever. Just like all the stuff that you have that's good doesn't exist forever. Neither does the pain. It evolves with you and it. And if you decide to be the guiding force of that pain, it can evolve into something that isn't self destructive, but something that really like, propels you forward in a positive way.
- [61:30]
Amanda Hirsch
I love that your murder conviction was overturned, obviously, but the, the, the slander charge is really interesting to me because we don't have that in the United States. Right? Yeah, because he didn't basically. Patrick. I don't want to say his last name wrong.
- [61:45]
Amanda Knox
Lumumba.
- [61:46]
Amanda Hirsch
Lumumba. When you were being interrogated, we see this on the show for the 53 hours and they, they start telling you that you texted your boss and you said, see you later. And they don't get that it's the slang, that they thought you had a meeting with him and that your alibi is. So you guys watch the show if you haven't, but you'll see this moment and you end up saying his name because it was thrown at you and you were gaslit into thinking it was him. So basically, Italy, like, they're.
- [62:14]
Amanda Knox
They held me criminally liable.
- [62:16]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [62:17]
Amanda Knox
For lying to the police and saying that somewhat. They, what they claim is that I knowingly and willingly falsely accused an innocent man. That is not what happened. One, I didn't know who committed the murder, so I didn't know who was innocent or who was guilty. I didn't knowingly do anything. And I neither did that willingly either.
- [62:37]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [62:37]
Amanda Knox
But like, they say that I wasn't even being interrogated, I was being interviewed, which is why I didn't have the right to an attorney. The European Court of Human Rights disagrees with them and says that I absolutely was being interrogated and I did have the right to an attorney and my human rights were violated. So, yeah, here I am 18 years later with the Italian justice system saying that I am guilty of maliciously slandering an innocent person and three of the years that I spent in jail were deserved. And that is patently false. So I'm fighting that.
- [63:15]
Amanda Hirsch
You're still fighting it. Okay. What implications does it have on your life? Aside from just knowing that.
- [63:21]
Amanda Knox
That I have a criminal record. So is that.
- [63:24]
Amanda Hirsch
Does that. Does it transfer over? Like, it's.
- [63:27]
Amanda Knox
Well, like, for instance, recently I tried to do. I was invited to do a little bit of work in Australia, and my. I was denied entry due to my criminal background.
- [63:40]
Amanda Hirsch
Okay. Okay.
- [63:42]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [63:43]
Amanda Hirsch
So that's important.
- [63:44]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Yeah. No, it's. It's a.
- [63:46]
Amanda Hirsch
It's not just a principal thing that.
- [63:48]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I mean, there's the principle of the thing, but there's also a practical reality of the thing. And like, I. And again, this is something that you see a lot in wrongful conviction cases where, like, there's this tendency to try to convict the person of, like, a lesser crime or to say that they're at fault for their own wrongful conviction, so that there. There is no accountability on the part of the law enforcement who put an innocent person in jail in the first place. And so one thing that one of my attorneys has always said is that the only reason I was ever convicted of that was as a content dina, which is a little contentment to the prosecution so that they wouldn't be completely humiliated.
- [64:29]
Amanda Hirsch
Got you. That makes sense. That makes sense. But it's interesting because at first when this was spoken about, I thought it was Patrick. Right. Like, you slandered my name that this was coming from him.
- [64:42]
Amanda Knox
He did have a civil attorney who was there in court acting as a kind of second prosecutor. He was the one. In fact, it was Patrick Lumumba's attorney who invented the Luciferina term. He was the one who started calling me Luciferina, female Lucifer. So Patrick Lumumba's attorney was. Was ruthless in his pursuit to get compensation for Patrick for his losses. What he didn't recognize, though, was that I was not at fault for Patrick's arrest. It was the police who arrested him and it was the police who held him, even though there was no evidence of his involvement in this crime and even though he had an ironclad alibi. So I feel like there was a. A misdirection of trying to find fault and trying to attribute blame for this. A very clearly bad thing that happened to my boss, Patrick Lumumba.
- [65:38]
Amanda Hirsch
So this sort of thing doesn't happen in the US Right, where the slander, this charge this.
- [65:45]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, and that's a really interesting point. Like, there are a lot of cases of wrongful convictions here in the U. S. Where, like. Are you familiar with the Central park five case?
- [65:57]
Amanda Hirsch
They have a show about it.
- [65:58]
Amanda Knox
They Do. Yeah. Yes.
- [66:00]
Amanda Hirsch
So I think I. I watched the show.
- [66:01]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that is. It's a very famous false confessions case where these.
- [66:06]
Amanda Hirsch
With the kids, Right? Yes.
- [66:07]
Amanda Knox
These. These teenagers were all, you know, con. Coerced into implicating each other.
- [66:12]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [66:13]
Amanda Knox
And what if that. If what had happened in my case happened in their case, not only would they have all been accused of, you know, committing this horrible, like, rape and attack on this woman, but they also would have been accused of falsely accusing each other. And so they would have been charged and convicted of that lesser crime. And they didn't obviously, that, that they didn't get charged of that crime here.
- [66:36]
Amanda Hirsch
Because that doesn't happen here.
- [66:37]
Amanda Knox
I mean. Yeah, they didn't charge. They don't charge for that.
- [66:39]
Amanda Hirsch
They don't charge for that kind of. Yeah. Patrick Lumumba, is he still alive?
- [66:45]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [66:46]
Amanda Hirsch
Did you speak to him? Is there any.
- [66:49]
Amanda Knox
I have spoken to him. And I mean, it's. It's tough because he, I mean, he was wronged, Right. He was deeply wronged and he's convinced that I'm the one who wronged him.
- [67:04]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [67:05]
Amanda Knox
And like, I try to explain to him what really happened, but I think that he's just so entrenched in the narrative that his own attorney represented to him. And so it's just been like a non starter. And it's unfortunate because that's not uncommon. And again, it like, really taught. Lends to this idea that, like, once this boulder of a narrative starts going down the hill, it just gains momentum and it's so hard to stop. And like, at a certain point, like, it just wrecks everything and there's only so much like, damage control that you can do.
- [67:42]
Amanda Hirsch
I know that you've spoken before about how you didn't get to like, properly ever meet Meredith's family, grieve with them, speak to them, anything.
- [67:51]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [67:51]
Amanda Hirsch
Do you think that might change with the show coming out?
- [67:54]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I never give up hope.
- [67:56]
Amanda Hirsch
Okay.
- [67:56]
Amanda Knox
You know, I'm. I'm always a hopeful person. I also know that, like, you know, the way that this story has been told, the. What happened to Meredith, like, the truth of what happened to Meredith got lost in this, like, whole scandalous story. And for good reason. There is pain and grief in that. And so. But I have hope.
- [68:19]
Amanda Hirsch
You have hope. Rafaeli.
- [68:22]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, he was here for the premiere.
- [68:24]
Amanda Hirsch
Oh, he came for the premiere?
- [68:26]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [68:26]
Amanda Hirsch
Okay. I thought that I, like, my eyes were playing tricks with me. I was like, was that the actor? Was that the real. So he was There?
- [68:33]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, he was there and all.
- [68:35]
Amanda Hirsch
Scarf and all.
- [68:36]
Amanda Knox
Well, no, he wasn't match anymore.
- [68:39]
Amanda Hirsch
No, no, Rafaeli was here. Yeah. What was that like after all these years?
- [68:44]
Amanda Knox
Well, I think the last time I saw him was three years ago.
- [68:47]
Amanda Hirsch
Okay.
- [68:48]
Amanda Knox
When I went. Yeah, three years ago. And I mean, we've kept up over the years, and he's in Italy, obviously, and, like, we've both had. I mean, talk about an ordeal of, like, the long tale of trauma.
- [69:02]
Amanda Hirsch
After dating for a week.
- [69:03]
Amanda Knox
After dating for a week, we go through this, like, horrible experience together. And now we're living the rest of our lives with, like, the stigma of this accusation hanging over us and, like, really being a huge, defining moment in our lives.
- [69:19]
Amanda Hirsch
Was it for him, though, do you think? As much as for you?
- [69:22]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, it was 100%. I mean, absolutely. Like, he did not come out of this story unscathed. He was accused of heinous crimes. And, like, the. The stigma of that hovers over him to this day. And he's worked so hard, and he's been. He's done so well considering all of the obstacles that he's faced and the, you know, the slammed doors in his face, he's really had to, like, prove his innocence every single day. But he's like. He's doing much better now. And, like, you know, we still are very connected and are processing this experience in our own. In our own ways. I think that he. It's really cool. We actually are both big meditators, and that's been a huge, huge help because, like, one of the things that meditation teaches you is that if you just like, sit quietly with yourself right here, right now, you're okay. Like, no matter what is going on in the world and all the problems that you need to solve, like, right now, you're okay. And, like, just. Just knowing that, like, knowing that there's a rep, a place to retreat to where you're okay is such a relief.
- [70:35]
Amanda Hirsch
So you connected on that with him?
- [70:37]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Yeah, That's.
- [70:38]
Amanda Hirsch
So did you. How did you think to invite him to the premiere? How did that happen?
- [70:42]
Amanda Knox
I mean, this is a huge story for him as well, and I wanted him to have a sense of, like, here are all these people who have been working so hard to tell this story. Right? And obviously, like, this show is very grounded in my perspective.
- [71:00]
Amanda Hirsch
Right.
- [71:00]
Amanda Knox
Like, it's. I'm going back to Italy to confront my prosecutor. That is something that I did. And to understand and appreciate that decision, we have to go back in time and relive this terrible experience. From my perspective, but, like, something that I really wanted to do was to honor things that he lost, like, through this and how that impacted our relationship. Like, one of the sort of lesser. Like, it's a big thread in the series for me, but I'm curious to see how, like, the audience picks it up. Is this story of love lost, like, the love that could have been, but then was tortured through this torture that we went under. Like, there's. Have you seen the final episode?
- [71:44]
Amanda Hirsch
I did.
- [71:44]
Amanda Knox
Okay. There's this beautiful scene between me and Rafaele where we. We reckon with the fact, like, it is not lost on us that, like, if we hadn't met, you know, seven days before this crime occurred, his life would have been completely different. And does he, like, does he regret ever having met me? And, like, we have that discussion.
- [72:10]
Amanda Hirsch
Tune in for his answer, I guess.
- [72:12]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [72:12]
Amanda Hirsch
Oh, that's a hook. I had another question about Rafaeli, and this is a logistical one for me, a practical one. Did he actually turn on you in his interrogation and say that you weren't together that night, as it says on the show, or were there?
- [72:27]
Amanda Knox
I mean, yeah, all of these are so. Well, so what happened is, again, he was put through the same kind of horrific scenario, and the police wrote up a thing for him and he signed it out of, like, just exhaustion and fear and confusion. So, like, same scenario. And I do not hold any of that against him.
- [72:46]
Amanda Hirsch
So it wasn't like, okay, that makes sense, because I was like, oh, my God, why'd he turn on her? But you're saying it was the same.
- [72:52]
Amanda Knox
Oh, yeah.
- [72:53]
Amanda Hirsch
Situation.
- [72:53]
Amanda Knox
And there's a mo. Like, in the series, we see. It's really cool. We see the same scenes from different angles. And so we also see his interrogation and what was happening at. At the. At the same time that I was being interrogated in a later episode. So we can appreciate, like, what was going on.
- [73:13]
Amanda Hirsch
Have you returned to Italy since 2022?
- [73:16]
Amanda Knox
I have, yes. So talk about the slander trial. So the European Court of Human Rights sanctioned Italy for violating my human rights during my interrogation. And I used that ruling to overturn my slander conviction in Italy. And then I was sent back for retrial. So I was tried again in 2024 for this crime, and they found me guilty again. So I'm appealing again to the European Court of Human Rights as we speak.
- [73:44]
Amanda Hirsch
And that is it like being in Italy with the Italians probably still screaming at you in Italy, In Italian, and being in a court and being like, does that.
- [73:55]
Amanda Knox
It's so hard Bring you back. It's. I hate being in courtrooms. I hate it. And standing in front of a, a court of, you know, people who are not my peers and opening, pouring my heart out to them about the worst experience of my life and then having them go into a room and come back and say, we don't believe you and you deserve to be punished is like so heartbreaking. It's, it's so hard and like I'm being punished for having been harmed.
- [74:29]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [74:30]
Amanda Knox
And it's so, like, at this point in my life, like, like, I know, I know what happened and I know that I'm not at fault and that I was tortured, but for that not to be like, officially recognized and validated is an ongoing trauma.
- [74:49]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [74:49]
Amanda Knox
And so I'm just, I'm still carrying it to this day.
- [74:54]
Amanda Hirsch
Like, you really feel like that's maybe the last missing piece of feeling kind of more of a closure with this, Especially the case? Yeah, yeah, with the case.
- [75:05]
Amanda Knox
With the case, certainly.
- [75:06]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah, I understand that. But it's just grief.
- [75:09]
Amanda Knox
No.
- [75:10]
Amanda Hirsch
Do you feel like you're fighting with this specifically? Like a, just like a battle? Because I feel like if they're, you know, the way they're portrayed on the show, so hard headed, so keen on making you out to be this person, and you were saying before what your lawyer said, like, this is the thing they have, you know, and they're not going to let it go. Are you not letting yourself think negatively? Are you like, I'm gonna keep fighting even though.
- [75:42]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing about life is like you fight for what you know is right. Not knowing if you're going to get right. You're not knowing if you're going to be vindicated and, and acknowledged. But that doesn't stop you from fighting for what you know is right. So I have to be okay with uncertainty. And that's been my entire adult life.
- [76:01]
Amanda Hirsch
Well, I hope that that happens for you.
- [76:03]
Amanda Knox
Thank you.
- [76:04]
Amanda Hirsch
I really hope that that happens for you. You know, I think this was like a theme in our conversation because I think I now, knowing you a little bit better, kind of know the answer. But I'll just ask you before we're done, do you ever think that you'll truly move on from.
- [76:19]
Amanda Knox
From this frustrating answer? Yes and no. In the sense that like, in a way, I already have moved on from it because I, I feel free. I wrote a book that came out earlier this year called Free. And it's about like trying after having my freedom stolen from me. How do I Make sense of that. And how do I reclaim freedom when I feel like freedom isn't what I thought it was anymore? What does it mean to be free? And today I do feel free. Like, I do not feel like I'm at the mercy of someone else. I feel like I have agency in my life. And no matter what, you know, the Italian justice system decides, it doesn't, like, have any say over who I am. I. I know who I am. I. I know the trajectory of my life. Like, I know that I am in sync with the truth and, and with, you know, an ethical decision making matrix. Like, I'm. I feel very comfortable with myself and my decisions and my place in the world that I have fought for. And. And so in that way, I have moved on because I don't feel trapped anymore. But does this ever go away?
- [77:34]
Amanda Hirsch
No.
- [77:34]
Amanda Knox
No. This is my life.
- [77:35]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [77:36]
Amanda Knox
And I can embrace that and you can embrace that.
- [77:38]
Amanda Hirsch
Well, thank you so much for coming personal.
- [77:41]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [77:41]
Amanda Hirsch
I want to know about your tattoos.
- [77:43]
Amanda Knox
Oh, okay. Well, there's a lot of them. Are you most curious about this one, that one, this one, and this one. Okay, so this one. Are you familiar with the semicolon tattoo?
- [77:52]
Amanda Hirsch
That's the thing. Yeah. I understand anxiety well.
- [77:56]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So this is originally. Yeah. Depression, suicidal ideation. This. The idea being that you think your life is at an end, but actually it's just a pause.
- [78:05]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [78:06]
Amanda Knox
And the girl who gave me this, this was very early on in my journalistic career of interviewing people, was a young girl named Daisy Coleman who had survived being raped and taken advantage of at a very young age. And then when she went to the police, she was not believed. And then slut shamed in her local community.
- [78:25]
Amanda Hirsch
And.
- [78:25]
Amanda Knox
And she attempted to take her own life and thankfully survived, but went on to, like, tell her story and went on to become a tattoo artist. And so when I interviewed her, I had her tattoo this for me.
- [78:37]
Amanda Hirsch
Did you relate to that one?
- [78:39]
Amanda Knox
Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, I mean, I've dealt. I felt like my life was over and it wasn't.
- [78:44]
Amanda Hirsch
And it wasn't.
- [78:45]
Amanda Knox
You know, the sad thing about this one is Daisy is no longer with us because she still struggled with all of the stuff, all of the trauma that she experienced, and then a series of events, including the untimely death of her younger brother. And, like, all of that just became overwhelming.
- [79:05]
Amanda Hirsch
And so this is extra meaningful, like, extra extra.
- [79:09]
Amanda Knox
This is me carrying this young woman who I encountered forward.
- [79:13]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah.
- [79:14]
Amanda Knox
This one is a resistor symbol from electrical engineering. And for me, it is a symbol of, like, the world is going to give you energy, right? It's not always going to be great energy. You don't have to take it in, and you don't have to be a conduit for the energy. You know how, like, sometimes you're just. You'll start off on the wrong foot and you and your, you know, spouse will just be sort of, like, nitpicking at each other, and it's like, you know what? Like, you don't actually have to, like, be in this negative feedback loop. You can just, like, stop it and start over. And so for me, this is a symbol both of, like, being really mindful about the kinds of energy that I take in and the kinds of energy that I put out, but also, similarly, information. Like, there's a lot of crazy, bad information that comes our way every day. I don't have to be a conduit of that. I can be skeptical. I can be mindful. I can. I can decide, does this. Is this truthful or is this just, you know, what is it called, though? A resistor symbol. So it resists the current that it restricts. A current that goes, let's get it, guys.
- [80:19]
Amanda Hirsch
Yeah, Tattoo people. Let's get it.
- [80:21]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. My husband and I both have these.
- [80:23]
Amanda Hirsch
Oh, really?
- [80:23]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [80:24]
Amanda Hirsch
I like it. Thank you so much for coming on. It was so lovely to meet you. You guys go stream the twisted tale of Amanda Knox. It's on Hulu. I love that shows have started not coming out all at once. So it's not binging. It's. You're waiting. You're waiting for the next episode.
- [80:37]
Amanda Knox
It's a hard one to be.
- [80:38]
Amanda Hirsch
It's a hard one.
- [80:39]
Amanda Knox
It's a lot.
- [80:40]
Amanda Hirsch
You're right. Thank you.
- [80:41]
Amanda Knox
Thank you.
- [80:42]
Amanda Hirsch
Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Knott's Kenny but not fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not skinny but not fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcasts and write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.
- [81:11]
Amanda Knox
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.