LAW ROACH: HOW ZENDAYA'S STYLIST BUILT HIS OWN EMPIRE

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Law Roach: How Zendaya's Stylist Built His Own Empire"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Not Skinny But Not Fat
• Host: Amanda Hirsch
• Guest: Law Roach
• Episode Title: LAW ROACH: HOW ZENDAYA'S STYLIST BUILT HIS OWN EMPIRE
• Release Date: November 26, 2024

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1. Introduction and Amanda’s Initial Impressions (00:00 - 03:09)

Amanda Hirsch kicks off the episode with her signature casual and engaging style, expressing her initial intimidation upon meeting Law Roach. She shares a candid anecdote about wearing an "ugliest outfit" to impress him, only to find him to be "kind and so warm" contrary to her expectations.

"I can't believe I did. I did. I wore the ugliest outfit that day...he was so kind and so warm." — Amanda Hirsch [00:03 - 01:31]

2. Amanda’s Celebrity Commentary (03:10 - 09:21)

Before delving deeper into her conversation with Law, Amanda takes a moment to discuss current celebrity news. She reflects on the resurgence of Lindsay Lohan, praising her comeback and expressing mixed feelings about the overhype surrounding her recent projects. Additionally, Amanda touches on Ariana Grande's personal life, offering her perspectives on public relationships and the pressures celebrities face.

"What movies has she been in? Like Georgia Rule. Fudgeing. Loved it." — Amanda Hirsch [03:10 - 09:21]

3. Meeting Law Roach: A Surprising Experience (09:21 - 19:07)

Amanda introduces Law Roach, highlighting how his demeanor contrasts her initial fears. Law shares his experiences attending prestigious events like the CFDA Awards, emphasizing inclusivity in the fashion industry. He discusses his friendships within the fashion community and his approach to styling diverse clients.

"I think that fashion should be not so behind the red velvet ropes." — Law Roach [10:36 - 11:02]

4. Career Highlights and Transition to Retirement (19:07 - 26:19)

Law Roach opens up about his career trajectory, detailing his transition from a high-demand stylist to a semi-retired status. He explains that while he has stepped back from managing numerous high-profile clients, he continues to work closely with Zendaya and Celine Dion—both of whom have profoundly influenced his career.

"I am now 95% retired from being a stylist...so I just couldn't say no." — Law Roach [20:14 - 20:59]

5. Personal Struggles and Mental Health (26:19 - 33:07)

Law delves into his personal struggles with mental health following his retirement. He discusses the challenges of redefining his identity outside the bustling fashion industry and highlights the importance of cultivating happiness as a daily habit.

"Happiness is a habit and you have to work on it." — Law Roach [25:30 - 26:19]

6. Identifying as Aromantic and Personal Relationships (36:18 - 37:59)

In a deeply personal segment, Law reveals his identification as aromantic, explaining his lack of interest in romantic relationships. He shares how he finds purpose through friendships, professional achievements, and his contributions to the fashion world.

"I've never been in a serious relationship ever." — Law Roach [37:07 - 37:19]

7. Law Roach’s Book: "How to Build a Fashion Icon" (37:59 - 41:39)

Law discusses his upcoming book, clarifying that it's more about building confidence and personal growth than mere fashion tips. He emphasizes the role of fashion in enhancing self-esteem and shares actionable advice for listeners to cultivate their own confidence.

"It's about the confidence to be able to do whatever you want to do." — Law Roach [38:03 - 38:55]

8. Fashion Trends and Styling Philosophy (41:39 - 46:54)

The conversation shifts to current fashion trends and Law's personal styling philosophies. He advocates for versatility and authenticity in fashion, encouraging individuals to embrace their unique styles. Law also shares his thoughts on sustainable fashion practices, such as thrift shopping, which has been integral to his personal style.

"You chose your outfit for a reason...I think you look beautiful." — Law Roach [45:39 - 45:47]

9. Embracing Public Presence and Reality TV (46:54 - 47:20)

Law reflects on his foray into reality television, which has increased his public visibility. He discusses how these opportunities have allowed him to explore new facets of his career beyond styling, aligning with his long-term goals and personal growth aspirations.

"I've always kind of had that in the back of my mind...I've always had an exit plan." — Law Roach [44:25 - 44:52]

10. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts (47:20 - End)

Amanda and Law wrap up the episode with final questions about fashion essentials and Law's enduring contributions to the industry. Law shares his pet peeves and reinforces his commitment to fostering confidence through fashion. Amanda encourages listeners to check out Law's book and follow his journey.

"A beautiful coat. A beautiful dress coat. I cannot stand to see women dressed up with, like, a parker or a puffer coat." — Law Roach [45:56 - 46:04]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "That's what I like to put forth. Don't tell anybody that I'm nice." — Law Roach [00:03 - 01:31]
• "Happiness is a habit and you have to work on it." — Law Roach [25:30 - 26:19]
• "I've never been in a serious relationship ever." — Law Roach [37:07 - 37:19]
• "It's about the confidence to be able to do whatever you want to do." — Law Roach [38:03 - 38:55]
• "You chose your outfit for a reason...I think you look beautiful." — Law Roach [45:39 - 45:47]

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Conclusion:

In this insightful episode of "Not Skinny But Not Fat," Amanda Hirsch and Law Roach engage in a heartfelt and comprehensive discussion that transcends fashion. They explore themes of personal growth, mental health, and the true essence of confidence. Law Roach's candid revelations about his career, retirement, and personal identity offer listeners a profound look into the life of one of Hollywood's most respected stylists. Whether you're a fashion enthusiast or someone seeking inspiration for personal development, this episode delivers valuable lessons wrapped in engaging conversation.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory remarks, and other non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Amanda Hirsch and Law Roach.

Transcript

[Law Roach]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Welcome back to the Not Skinny But Not Fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars from my very own podcast, where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hey, guys. Happy Tuesday. Today's episode with Law wrote you guys. I was very intimidated by him. You know, he just gave Miranda Priestley Devil Wears Prada energy. And I was like, oh, my God. And I can't believe I did. I did. I wore the ugliest outfit that day. Like, I wore a blouse. I don't know why I put a blouse on. Like, I should have tried to impress him. And instead, sometimes when I get, like, extra stress, I just go in the other direction. I completely lean in. So it's, like, scary to dress ugly. Dress your ugliest that day. So what was shocking to me is that he's not Miranda Priestley at all. He was so kind and so warm, and he even told me when I was like, just, you know, like, I. I just thought you were, like, that kind of vibe. He said to me, like, I know. That's what I like to put forth. Don't tell anybody that I'm nice. Literally, he said that to me. So, sorry, Law. I'm telling the world that you are, in fact, nice and kind and complimentary. Like, even though I could tell he didn't like my outfit because at some point I was like, I don't even.

[Guest]

Know what I wore today.

[Amanda Hirsch]

He's like, you know, you decided to put that on. I was like, you're right, I did. But anyway, you're going to love this one. I love talking to him, but I just want to say hi. What else is up, you guys? A lot is up. Listen, there's a lot up. And you guys that know me know that I have this issue. You know, this might be pick me. I think this is what the kids call pick me. And if it's called pick me, then fudge that. Because I don't think I'm pick me. I'm more like, I question society. When society is all on one page, I want to know why. Like, what's the other page? Why are we all in this crazy town? I just want to question other stuff. So there's a lot of hype right now about Lindsay Lohan, and I'm game. That's the thing. I'm so game. I fucking love Lindsay Lohan. I love freaky Friday. I'm so excited for the reboot. I love Mean Girls, obviously. What kind of fudgeing millennial would I be? And I'm of course happy for her that after literally 13 times in rehab, she's back. She's looking healthier than ever. She's looking better than ever. She has a child, she's married. Like, so fudgeing happy for her. But I do feel like it's a little much. So much. So much that we're acting like pure royalty. We are acting like she's an Oscar winning actress and honestly think no one agrees with me. But she went and watched what Happens live and she wasn't even smug about it, to be honest. But Andy just asked her, was there any movies that you auditioned for that you didn't get that you can tell us about that you were bummed about? And she was like, I didn't audition since Parent Trap. And everyone's like, oh my God. Oh my God. You didn't audition since Parent Trap? Like, what a queen, Lindsay.

[Guest]

What a queen.

[Amanda Hirsch]

And I'm like, you guys, what movies has she been in? Like Georgia Rule. Fudgeing. Loved it. Okay. Even though read up Jane Fonda was not happy with her back then. I loved it though. But yeah, she was in Mean Girls. I kind of get why she didn't have to audition for that. It was like fucking practically written for her. But yeah, since her comeback, let's just take a moment and. And say what? The truth is that's my problem with society. If you're gonna over hype, just let's be honest about what's going on. What's going on is she's in Christmas movies. Christmas Netflix movies. And you know what? I'm sure none of you fucking watched the last one. That holiday one where she like has a concussion, wakes up, doesn't remember her fiance. Like, let's be honest, none of you watched it, so stop pretending like she's like in your ghost. Lanthimosa's newest film. I wish. I want her to be the next Emma Stone, but for now she's in Netflix Christmas movies, so that's all. I just like us to just note what's going on. At the same time, we have Ariana Grande, who. Who obviously gets so much for her love life. And I will say this, obviously the timing is us, you know, the timing of her and Ethan Slater and when she got divorced and when he got divorced and obviously his situation is kind of really icky because he had a tiny little baby when this all went down. And to be honest, I will always tell you the truth of what I've heard. And the truth of what I've heard is that that is true that he did meet Ariana on the set. He did leave his wife and baby. That's obviously grows. There is a small part of me that will say love is love. And like if two people fall in love, what are you gonna do? Even though it's so gross. And obviously if it was done to you or done to me, we would fudgeing, kill, kill them. But I'm also like, yeah. The bright thing would have been like I met someone, fell in love with Ariana Grande. I'm breaking up my fam. I mean, Olivia Wilde did it for Harry. That didn't end up working out. I will just say at the end of the day, even though I did hear whisperings, it's at that that's what went down Re him, I think re her. Her and Dalton were long gone. What I've hear when they were married, at the beginning it was Covid and like he didn't experience like the real outdoors. Ariana Grande experience that. Like she's at home with me. I'm a real estate agent. Literally a Douglas Elliman. She likes normies, you guys. Oh my God, that's the pattern. She likes normies a little bit. Because Pete was pretty normie when she dated him and was engaged. Never forget fucking that Douglas Elliman fogging real estate agent. She was married to Dalton and now Ethan Slater. I mean Normie. I will say that I did see his audition for something else. I won't tell you what I did see. I was audition tape for something else that I was like, oh my God, a little cringe. But I know his press tour for Wicked people like Tim, he seemed really sweet and really genuine. So it's hard because you're like, okay, tell us something that will make us not hate you for leaving your new baby and wife. And after, I think they were like high school sweethearts or something. Anyway, yes, don't love it. But I did also hear like, you guys don't know the whole story. Obviously Ariana has said there's a lot of untruths going on. So I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt of like, okay, we don't know everything. We can't assume. Even though I did really assume about Olivia Wilde because I was like, you guys, you blew up your family. Even though I did also hear that. Anyway, I'm all over the place. My point is Ariana Grande. I will separate that from this Ethan Slater thing is the cutest thing on this press tour. Obviously, they're all the jokes about her and Cynthia basically having sex and in all their interviews and being all over each other. Drew Barrymore.

[Guest]

What?

[Amanda Hirsch]

But I think at the end of the day, I love seeing gratefulness. I love seeing humility, and I love seeing her appreciation. I love her saying, of course I auditioned. What do you guys think? This was handed to me. This was my dream role. Even though her dream role was Elphaba, which is interesting, but since she was, like, 10 years old, she wanted to do this. She's like, of course I auditioned. I trained my ass off. I worked my ass off. This is all earned, and I love that. And now there's even buzz about her being an Oscar nom contender, which, again, I do love. Like, I love hard work. I love appreciation, and it really does feel like she's there. So I'm excited to see it. I have not seen it yet. I also want to see Baby Girl. Listen, is there a part of me that's a little over Nicole Kidman? Yes. Is she in every movie and show this year? Yes. Like, I'm watching Lioness. She's there. That Zac Efron movie. Here's the thing. That Zac Efron movie with Joey King, like, she was the older woman having an affair with the younger guy, which I love, by the way, that that's a new trend for movies. Usually it's the older guy having an affair with a younger girl. I do like it. I feel like it's been done a lot lately, and especially by Nicole Kidman. But I am really excited for this because this Harris Dickinson guy is one of those, like, unexplained. I mean, not unexplained hotties. Like, he's very straightforwardly hot, but I feel like his riz, if you will, just in the trailer alone, I'm like, oh, my God, I understand the affair. Like, honestly understand the affair. So it looks so hot. I think, like, one of Nicole's, like, famous headlines from it is like, she was so sick of orgasming, she, like, needed a break. I don't know if that was a joke. I don't know if she was, like, pretend orgasming, but they're literally calling it an erotica. Like, they're calling it an erotica. So I don't know what is in store for us, but I am very, very excited to see it. Anyway, that's all for me, guys. On the latest, like, on updates that are going on it is Friday morning. As I'm recording this, Noah is sick and throwing up all over. Lenny decided to be back to waking up a gazillion times a night. Heading into the weekend, where it's a new thing when your parents. You wait for the week, wait for the week. It's not wild. You no longer wait for the weekend. You wait for the week to start. But anyway, enjoy this episode with Law Roach. I can't wait for you to hear it. And obviously, as always, let me know what you think. And also, don't forget to rate and review the podcast.

[Guest]

You guys, La Roach is here.

[Law Roach]

Hi.

[Guest]

I'm so excited that you're here.

[Law Roach]

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[Guest]

And I have to say off the bat that you're, like, different than I thought you were going to be.

[Law Roach]

Really?

[Amanda Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And what way that I, like, was a little intimidated at the thought of you, and then I'm like, you're so disarming when you meet you.

[Law Roach]

Okay.

[Guest]

Do you get that sometimes?

[Law Roach]

No, I get that a lot of times people, people have this, this thing, think I'm going to be like this diva, like this, you know, nose in the air, whatever. I can't be touched, I can't be bothered. I am nothing like that.

[Guest]

Nothing like that. I don't know if I thought diva, but maybe just like, you know, maybe more guarded or like, more.

[Law Roach]

Well, maybe I will get guarded.

[Amanda Hirsch]

I know, maybe you're kind of like.

[Guest]

My walls are about to go.

[Law Roach]

You haven't started asking questions yet, so maybe.

[Guest]

Well, it's going to be chill. So you're in town for the CFDA's?

[Law Roach]

I was, yeah.

[Guest]

How was that?

[Law Roach]

CFJS is always nice. Yeah, it's like all your fashion friends, you know, we all get together, you know, celebrate each other, so.

[Guest]

Because I was going to ask, because I remember it being super, like, prestigious, getting an invite to that.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Right.

[Guest]

And now, like, you see some people that are maybe not as much in the fashion industry, not a listers. How do you feel about that?

[Amanda Hirsch]

Like.

[Law Roach]

No, I think it's great. I think, I think just celebrating our community so what it is. I think it's like some of the brands have tables and they bring people that aren't so closely related to fashion just to give them that experience. And I think that's great. I think that fashion should be not so behind the red, you know, the red velvet ropes. Yeah, I think so. Should be a little bit more inclusive.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Really?

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Cause I was thinking.

[Law Roach]

Tell me.

[Guest]

No, I was just like, you know, there's some things that have such a, like, prestigious vibe where you're like, wow, like, to get an invite to that. That's like chic.

[Amanda Hirsch]

That's.

[Guest]

And then, like, you say it gets opened up to, like, maybe influencers and aren't so much in fashion. But I love that you love it. I was wondering if you were judging.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

I just think that for me being trying so hard and working so hard to be in this industry and accept it and also to thrive in this industry, like, who am I to say that somebody shouldn't be somewhere. Right. Because that's the same. Those. That's the way people looked at me when I first started. So I would be contradicting everything that I stand for to say, oh, they don't deserve to be here.

[Guest]

So true. It's such a healthy mindset, unlike my own. So you said seeing all your fashion friends. So you're friends with, like, other stylists and. Yeah, a little.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, a little. I mean, you know, it's a community. And so, you know, it's people I've worked with over the years, designers and. And, you know, just, you know, former clients and the people that you just been in these rooms with for so long and, like, it's nice to everybody be dressed up and to see each other and also celebrate. Celebrate people. Like, I wore Willy Shavario, and he actually won the menswear designer of the year, and so it was really great to be dressed by him there with him, you know, like people that you've rooted for.

[Guest]

Right. Cause it's not just like I saw there were so many that were honored like, that won. You won in 2022, right?

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Amanda Hirsch]

The inaugural stylist award.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

The only. Nobody's won it since.

[Guest]

Damn. How long does that stay? Like, is there a.

[Law Roach]

Possibly forever. I want to be the only one.

[Guest]

I hope. I hope that you are.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And you were also here, I saw for that bureau, Tom Hollands.

[Law Roach]

No, I wasn't here. I actually was in Morocco, but I dressed in Dan. She was there.

[Guest]

Because you had that really good vid.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

That you. You posted it, right?

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Of her dress.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So did. Cuz Tom was wearing a similar color. Did you. Do you ever dress him?

[Law Roach]

So I used to dress Tom before I re. Before I retired, I dressed Tom for three. So, like all the Spider man press tour, all that stuff. So I did all that. Used to dress him and Zendaya together. And when I retired, I. I don't know the right word, but my assistant became his stylist. My sister, Crystal Cox became his stylist.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

So she's one of my fashion babies. So, you know, you love that. I love him and I love her. And I wanted to make sure that he went to someone that could take care of him and understand his needs. And so she had worked with me, with him over the years, so it was just like an easy, nice transition for both of them.

[Guest]

That's so cool, if you guys think about it, because we know how you dress Zendaya.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Right.

[Guest]

And it could be very, like, out there. Different looks that are daring and stuff. And then you have Tom Holland, who's more straightforward and, you know, more conservative in a way.

[Law Roach]

Tom's a boy's boy. Like, he's a boy. You know what I mean?

[Guest]

And, like, you do both, and that just shows you, like, the job of a stylist.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, you have to have range. If you're good at it, you have to have range.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Law Roach]

Cause Tom. Tom is British, so he grew up wearing suits. He's. You know, the Brits are really into tailoring and the fit of things. And so. Yeah, so he's different in that. In that aspect. So I just found something that worked for him and created kind of, like, cultivated a style for him that worked. And now Crystal is working with him, and the style is changing a little bit. It's changing to more who he is right now in his life. And it's just. It's so great to watch someone who worked for me and was trained by me. That's so cool to be successful.

[Guest]

That is really cool.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Hirsch]

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[Guest]

Do you ever try to push your clients? Let's say Tom Holland, right. And he's more like, I'm used to suits. Are you ever like try this bell bottom?

[Law Roach]

Never.

[Guest]

Really?

[Law Roach]

No, I just, I, I don't think that's what a real stylist does. You don't change people. Right. You just elevate them. And so maybe it's not a bell bottom that I, that I led him towards, but maybe it's just a different color combination in a silhouette that he understood but just a different color that he had never worn before. So I think those are the tiny little pushes that you want. You don't want somebody to completely become someone else because they won't be comfortable and they won't be confident. And our job is to have our clients as confident and as comfortable as possible so they can just get out and get out and be who they are and be the superstar they are and not think about the clothes, what they're wearing. Yeah.

[Guest]

When you say comfortable, do you actually care about comfort? Because I mean, because I was like, what do you mean by comfort?

[Law Roach]

Comfortable in your own skin. Not so much comfortable in the clothes I got you.

[Guest]

And that is true. Cuz if you're wearing something that you feel like isn't you?

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Then you'll be like thinking about it the whole time.

[Law Roach]

And people, people notice that and people notice that.

[Guest]

But okay, we have to go back to this. You keep on saying I'm retired, but I did this, I'm retired, but I did that. So what is it though? Are you retired or are you not retired?

[Law Roach]

So I am, I am, let's say 95% retired from being a stylist. When I retired I had 12 clients. I carried 12, 15 clients of the biggest stars in the world, through music, through Hollywood, through sports, you know, Lewis Hamilton, Venus Williams, Zendaya, Kerry Washington, you know, all these people. And so I stepped back from all of that. And so now I only work with Zendaya and Celine Dion because these are two women who had. Who've really changed my life and changed the trajectory of my career and really made me who I am today. So it's like, how could I say no? And Zendaya is like my sister, so I just couldn't say no. She probably punched me in the face.

[Guest]

But she like, you're not leaving me.

[Law Roach]

Oh, no. She did say that.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Law Roach]

It was very serious about it.

[Guest]

Like, you can't. You can retire. But not for me.

[Law Roach]

She was very serious about it.

[Guest]

Wow. So it's like retired with an asterisk.

[Law Roach]

Correct.

[Guest]

Okay. Because let's remember all. We all remember, which I can't believe this is now a year ago, right? Almost a year that you said you were, you got upset about something, right. And you did. Was that really the catalyst, though, like that moment that happened for you to retire, was it like building up?

[Law Roach]

It was, it was, it was building. I was just. People don't really understand that a stylist, that is a service job because people think it's glamorous, right? People like, oh, you get to be with celebrities and you get to fly here on private jets and the clothes and the diamonds. And I think it's really, really glamorous and is probably one of the most non glamorous jobs. And people don't know that. Right. And so it was just me being of service to people in that way. You know, it's no different from the gardener or the babysitter or the chef or the housekeeper. It's the same thing. I'm just carrying clothes and not a mop, right? But I'm on call 24, 24 hours a day. Whenever they need something, I'm picking up the phone. If they say, I'm going to New York, I need you to be in New York tomorrow. I'm calling my agent, we're booking a flight. And I just was. And that part had got started getting to me and also, you know, feeling disposable, you know, at any time, they can choose to go to somewhere else. So. And then it's always optically. It's always looked at it like it's our faults. And now I'm speaking for all stylists, right? So it's that burden that you're carrying. And it's also me being. Being black and being in a space where there's not a lot of people that look like me and wearing that burden of I have to be 10 times better than the others and work harder.

[Guest]

But you did it. But you did those things.

[Law Roach]

I did those things with. With this burden. Right. And so it was just. It got to me, and I was tired of carrying. Carrying that burden and tired of being of service. And so I started to figure out ways to be of service to people in a different way that filled me up instead of, you know, depleting me. And so that's why I am now in my life.

[Guest]

How did your other clients feel about it?

[Law Roach]

I mean, you know, it was a lot of people that felt the way about it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

You know, and some were really nice and, you know, called me and made sure I was okay mentally and everything. And, you know, some asked, said it would have been nice to. For me to say something to them, but I didn't know I was going to do that. It was. It was impromptu.

[Guest]

You mean they saw the Instagram like everybody else.

[Law Roach]

Zendaya too. No one knew.

[Guest]

Wow.

[Law Roach]

No one knew. Zendaya text me. She was like, well, you know, you probably could have called me in. It was just. I had just. At that point, I was so overcome with emotion and I was crying, and I really wrote it because I wanted the phone to stop ringing.

[Guest]

You wrote it with intention. It wasn't like, you don't regret it. It was like, I'm putting this out there. And then you would kind of be.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. I just didn't know that it was gonna turn into what it turned into. Like, it turned into this huge news story.

[Guest]

It did.

[Law Roach]

That actually stuck around for a while, which I was surprised about. And. But I just. At that moment, it was like. It was. So the Met Gala was coming and people were calling, and, you know, my agent was calling, a publicist was calling. It was all these things, and I was just like, I wanna have some peace. But when I said it then, I was like, okay, now I have to stand in it because I said it. Ah, right.

[Guest]

Take accountability for your.

[Law Roach]

Right. And so I said it. And so when I did that, I. Now I know that I made the right decision.

[Guest]

So you're. You're. You feel good about that?

[Law Roach]

I feel great about it. It's the best thing I ever did in my life.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Wow. I'm really happy for you.

[Law Roach]

Thank you.

[Guest]

And then you clarified. You said, y'all really think I'm Breaking out with Z. We are forever.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Because she's my little sister.

[Guest]

And it's real love, not the fake industry love.

[Law Roach]

Right.

[Guest]

Which is a little zingerang towards someone that we don't know. Like, will we ever know what happened that time with the Met Gala? What client pissed you off?

[Law Roach]

Like, will you ever know when the memoir comes out? I'm not writing the memoir right now, just to be clear. But, like, yeah, it's a story that should be told. It should, you know, but I'm just in a place where I am still in the industry. I still have a lot of respect for the industry that made me who I am and. But when it's time for me to tell my complete story, yes, I will definitely tell the story.

[Guest]

And you wanted to focus on your mental and physical health. Like, were you able to do that? Do you feel. Do you feel at a better place?

[Law Roach]

Yeah, I was depressed for a while after the retirement because I just didn't know who I was outside of being, you know, Law Roach, the stylist. Law Roach to image architect, you know, so I had to find me and figure me out and learn how to love me and find joy and happiness. And I figured out one of my biggest lessons is I figured out that happiness is a habit and you have to work on it. Just like, you know, you want to work on, you know, eating well and exercising. It's a habit. You know what I mean? And I had to figure out that happiness was as well, and I have to work on it. And so every day I work on being happy, I wake up happy. Even when people piss me off, I, you know, I rebound for it and say it's not worth sacrificing my happiness for that. And, you know, I just feel so.

[Guest]

They even say, you guys, they even say that if you smile, like, if you fake smile, you are. Can trick your brain.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And you can actually do that as an exercise.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. Difference, Right. Your brain doesn't know the difference.

[Guest]

And you are right. It's a habit. It's not a choice. Like, you're right. You can be depressed. You can have bad days, but there are choices you can make, maybe to not get as upset as you would about. About something.

[Amanda Hirsch]

But.

[Guest]

When did your fashion interest start?

[Law Roach]

When I was a little boy, I just really. I'm just obsessed with women. I am so obsessed with women. And I think being a woman is an art form. And as a young boy, I knew that I would want to. I wanted to play a part in that some type of way. It Took me a long time to figure out that styling and clothes would be it. But I just. I just used to love to just see women be women and the makeup and the hair and, you know, getting dressed up and, you know, I'm really, really obsessed with the women who. It's like a 24 hour thing for them, like they always done. You know, I just heard a story, I forgot who it was, but they said that their husband had never saw them without makeup.

[Guest]

I love that.

[Law Roach]

I love, I love. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, so I knew from a young age that I just thought that women were these things, these beings that needed to be celebrated. And I wanted to figure out a way that I could be a part of that.

[Guest]

Did you ever think of other avenues, like hair or cosmetology?

[Amanda Hirsch]

Like.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, yeah. Makeup, like, you know, my mother used to let me play with. My mother used to let me do a lot of things, which I. I'm thankful for her.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

Like, she would let me play. What, like playing. Put makeup on her and everything. But that just. That never really hit for me.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

You know, so I wish I did, though, because I could have been like Pat McGrath, I think. Could you imagine? I've been so successful as a makeup artist.

[Guest]

Well, you're so successful as a stylist.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You're. What are you, a grass is greener type of guy? Like, do you. Yeah, like, do you think. Because you're saying I could have been like that. Yeah, but like, people want to be like you.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. No, no, no. I'm very. I think my life is. I think I've been living the life that I'm supposed to live.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Law Roach]

No, I'm very happy.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Okay.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. I was just saying. I was just thought about it because I've never told anybody that story before. So I'm like, shit, maybe I could have been. Yeah, maybe it could have been like LA Roach Cosmetics.

[Guest]

Still could be. Still could be.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, for sure.

[Guest]

So you're saying your mom was supportive from the get, like when you showed.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Interest in these things?

[Law Roach]

Yeah, I think my. I think my mom let me do a lot of stuff, including play with Barbies, because she really just wanted me to babysit my little sisters.

[Guest]

How many sisters do you have?

[Law Roach]

Two. I have two younger sisters.

[Guest]

And you're the oldest?

[Law Roach]

I'm the oldest of five. So two younger sisters, two younger brothers. And, you know, me playing with Barbies with my sisters kept them occupied. So I think she kind of just like took advantage of me in that space. But she still let me do it.

[Guest]

Right. Yeah.

[Law Roach]

So. And I always say that Barbie was my first client.

[Guest]

So did you love the movie Barbie and like everything.

[Law Roach]

I didn't see the movie. Can you believe that?

[Guest]

I. Yeah, I can believe that. But like, she was your favorite thing or.

[Law Roach]

She was my favorite thing and you still.

[Guest]

Maybe you didn't want to see it so it wouldn't ruin her for you.

[Law Roach]

This is true.

[Guest]

Oh, it is true.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. I just didn't want to ruin my. You know who I think Barbie is.

[Guest]

Really kind of love that. Okay. So your mom was always supportive. Then I saw that you owned a used clothing shop.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Guest]

How did that happen?

[Law Roach]

Just like obsession with thrift stores. Like, everything I'm wearing now is thrifted.

[Guest]

Stop.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You have to do videos. Are you are, you know, really good at.

[Law Roach]

I'm. I'm going to get better at that. But yeah, everything. Everything I have on this is used that you find? Yeah, I found it myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

What are some good thrift stores?

[Law Roach]

Well, it's always like, I don't know thrift stores in New York, but in Chicago when I was there was like Salvation army was one. It was like Value Village. It was like, you know.

[Guest]

Wait, that's so cool.

[Law Roach]

And you would go to the neighborhoods where people weren't looking for, like, you'll go to the neighborhoods where people was looking because they really needed a winter coat. Right. Not they wasn't looking for a vintage Yves Saint Laurent.

[Guest]

Right.

[Law Roach]

You know what I mean?

[Guest]

But you can find that. Like you.

[Law Roach]

Of course.

[Guest]

Wow.

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

And then so you said before that the turning point is when Kanye visited.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

In 2009. Like randomly. Cuz he's from Chicago.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. And he. And my best. One of my best friends was really close friends with him. And so he popped in to say hello. And then it became like a news story. And so I started to get all these calls from stylists. I'm like, okay, so this is a viable job. Right? Like, people are really making money all around the world doing this. And like, so I'm like, so I want to do it too. And I just start calling myself that.

[Guest]

So then what. How did you get going? Like, how did you get your first client? Who was your first client?

[Law Roach]

My first client was a R and B singer named K. Michelle. She was signed to Atlantic Records at the time and they hired me to do her album rollout. So I did her album cover and like music videos and I had no idea what I was doing.

[Guest]

Wait, did you study at Any point or nothing. No, but how do you even to the store? How do you even open a shop, get the used clothes? Like, how old were you when you did that?

[Law Roach]

I was young, but I was just a hustler, and I was a bartender. That was my main source of income. So I would take my bartender money, spend it in a thrift store, get alterations, sell it out the trunk of my car. And when that became a decent business, then we opened up a small shop.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

And then, you know, one thing led to another.

[Guest]

Oh, my God.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So then from that first client, it kind of.

[Law Roach]

I was doing her. Then I met Zendaya, and so then my focus. Then I moved to LA to kind of, like, be with Zendaya full time.

[Guest]

How did you meet her?

[Law Roach]

I met her through a family friend. Just happened to be a client of deliciously vintage.

[Guest]

And this was before Euphoria? Before?

[Law Roach]

No, no. This is her first. First season of Shake it up on the Disney Channel.

[Guest]

Wow.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. She was a baby.

[Guest]

So you're with her since then. So you really saw her evolve?

[Law Roach]

No, we evolved together.

[Guest]

Evolved together.

[Law Roach]

Grew up together. Thirteen years.

[Guest]

And then I saw that you had mentioned before that you. If there are designers that didn't want to work with her from the beginning, you're not giving them another chance.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Amanda Hirsch]

You still stand by that?

[Law Roach]

No, I. I mean, I don't really. I mean, that. That. That podcast, that part blew up. But that's something I had said years ago, and she just asked that question, and that is the way I felt years ago. But now, you know, it is what it is, you know?

[Guest]

Yeah, no, I can feel that. I think it's a debate.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Right.

[Guest]

Cause sometimes you want the opportunity, but at the same time, like, you wanna stand on your moral drive.

[Law Roach]

The thing about it is that there's a lot of beautiful clothes in the world, and I learned that early in my career.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

And I would rather give an emerging designer, someone who's just started and that makes beautiful things, the opportunity rather than running and chasing behind some big brand just because other people think it's cool.

[Guest]

Right. I love that.

[Amanda Hirsch]

We'll be right back after the break. You guys, listen, at the end of the day, these Kardashians, they know what they're doing. And especially, I have to say, my girl Chloe, because her good American jeans are just amazing. I love when a celebrity brand actually takes off and. And has a life of its own. It's not like, oh, this is Khloe Kardashians. No, it's good American. Like, they are great jeans. They fit well. They are quality jeans. They feel good. They're like, nice and thick. Like, I just love that they're real jeans and I love that they're made for all body types because they fit like a dream. And this is actually wild because they're always fits. Jeans are super cool because they actually fit a variety of sizes and because they have this, like, incredible stretch and it moves with your body. Like, no matter what you're doing, it literally feels like these jeans were made for me. You never have to worry about them losing shape or feeling too tight. And again, what I love so much about Good American is, like, literally, it's all about inclusivity and it's all about really creating denim that feels as good as it looks and catering to all body types. You can shop [e-mail] and this is exciting, you guys. There is a promo code. It's not skinny and it will get you $50 off your first pair. So don't forget to use my promo code, not skinny for $50 off your first pair. And don't forget to select podcast at checkout and choose my show not skinny but not fat to let them know I sent ya. You're welcome, Coco. It's wild the amount of times I get messages on Instagram being like, what's your neutrophil code? Please send it to me. But listen, it's no surprise that I get asked for my Nutrafol code all the time, because most of you that have followed me forever know that after I had Noah, I was like, hello, I need some help with this thinning and shedding. So I started taking it and I saw a very obvious difference. Obviously it takes a little bit of time, so you have to be pretty consistent with it, but you do see results. When I got pregnant with Lenny, I literally had my postpartum neutrophil bottles lined up, which, yes, that means that it's breastfeeding friendly. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. It's trusted by over 1 million people. You can see thicker, stronger, and faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. So whether you're gifting one to yourself or a loved one, give the gift of great hair growth this holiday season. Right now, Nutrafol is offering my listeners $10 off any order. Enjoy free shipping. When you subscribe, go to nutrafol.com and enter the promos code Not Skinny Gift nutrafol.com spelled N U T R A F O L dot com. The promo code is Not Skinny Gift. That's neutropul.com promo code, Not Skinny gift. And we're back.

[Guest]

An interesting thing about you is that you suggested. Tell me if this is completely wrong. That you identify as aromantic.

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

Does that still. Is that still how you feel?

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

Okay, Very interesting, because I haven't heard about this, but you said it. It's something where you don't really feel the desire to. To have a romantic love.

[Law Roach]

No, I just. I just really asked. No. As a young. As a young boy, I always felt like, you know, how you grew up, you picture yourself, your wedding day, and this person that you're going to spend the rest of your life with and, like, you want to wake up with and talk to all day, FaceTime and all that. I just never, ever had a craving for that still to this day. And I always say, like, if the universe puts that in my life, I'm fine with it. I'm open to it, but it's not something that I'm praying for at night.

[Guest]

That you ever were.

[Law Roach]

Never.

[Guest]

Wow.

[Law Roach]

I've never been in a serious relationship ever.

[Guest]

Ever. But does that mean that you can't be in unserious relationships? Like, does that mean you're not interested in those either?

[Law Roach]

I mean, I'm interested in, you know, having fun sometimes. Yeah. But I'm not. I. Like, I can have fun and then never talk to you again.

[Guest]

Oh, wow. Yeah, but, like, in friendships, you're different.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, for sure.

[Guest]

So there's, like, romance is one. Yeah.

[Law Roach]

I feel like I was put on this earth to be loved in a certain type of way. Like, I've been doing all these things for my book and meeting all these people, and when they tell me how much that I mean to them and how they love me in that way, that gives me a sense of purpose, and I love being loved that way. And writing my book and starting a school of style is my way of giving people and showing people my love and with opportunities and. And helping people.

[Guest]

Let's talk about your book.

[Law Roach]

Sure.

[Guest]

How to Build a Fashion Icon.

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

So tell me, how do we build a fashion icon?

[Law Roach]

So the title of the book is very deceptive because it's not about fashion at all. It's about confidence, and it's about building yourself into becoming an icon of whatever you do. You know, like making yourself an icon in your podcast. Right. You know what I mean? It's about the confidence to be able to do whatever you want to do. When you want to do it. And there are ways to use fashion to help build that confidence or maintain it. But the book is not about fashion. Like, there's no fashion tips in the book. So if people are looking for that, you're going to be disappointed.

[Guest]

Well, I read that there are, because I didn't get the book. I don't know who we're blaming, but I mean.

[Amanda Hirsch]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Guest]

I didn't get. I didn't get the book, so I didn't get to read it. But I read that it is about tips and tricks and memorable styling moments. Is that not in there?

[Law Roach]

That's not true. It's a. There is anecdotes about clients. Like, I write about clients throughout my career, but it's also about their confidence and how, you know, I was able to help them build confidence, whether it's in just situational or in life, period. Right. And so that's what it's about. But there's no, like, oh, you shouldn't wear that color because it's not good for your skin tone.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

Like, it's not. It's not that.

[Guest]

Were you always confident? Yes, you were.

[Law Roach]

So at a very young age.

[Guest]

Wow. Do you think it's from your mom? Like, how.

[Law Roach]

No, I think it's because I grew up in a tough neighborhood, and my last name is Roach.

[Guest]

That is a last name.

[Law Roach]

Right. You know what I mean? So it's like I had to have some tough skin.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So you kind of built your own confidence.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So you know how to teach other people to kind of help them.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. And it's not. It's not like you sit someone down and be like, oh, let me teach you how to be confident. It's. It's arming them with different tools and tricks to. To help them find it on their own. Give me.

[Guest]

Give me a good one.

[Law Roach]

So one of my favorites is to find your power piece, and that's a piece of clothing that you already own, that you know exactly how it makes you feel. Right. And you know how it makes you look. You know, you maybe got a lot of compliments last time you wore it or the time before you. You wore it. And if you wake up in. You're not feeling confident. Right. You put that on. And what it does, it has the powers to transform your mood and make you feel better, because you already know how you look. And a lot of times, if we don't go out the house feeling confident, then your head is going to be in your closet all day.

[Guest]

Right.

[Law Roach]

You know what I mean? So. And also encourage people to rewear their clothes. I think it's stupid that we think that we can't repeat stuff anymore.

[Guest]

Do you repeat stuff?

[Law Roach]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[Guest]

Because you are right. There is those comfort clothes that, you know if you put them on, you're going to feel good. So you're saying if you want to, like, feel confident, start there.

[Law Roach]

Right.

[Guest]

But also, you are very into, like, experimenting with different.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, it is. That's in the book, too. It's like, go into a department store, try on a bunch of things that you don't think you'll like. Because what happens is just like, our palette for food matures, our palette for fashion and style matures. So every now and again, you have to test your palette out.

[Guest]

Yeah, I love that. This is like part self help, part manifesto, part. It's like a bunch of different things in this book. And it's out already, right?

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

How. How to build a fashion icon. You guys should check it out. You even like personal anecdotes too, right?

[Law Roach]

Yes, a lot of personal anecdotes. A lot of. There's a lot of. Part of me, how I grew up and, you know, a lot of things like that in the book. But at the end of every chapter, there are assignments and kind of like action items for you to kind of, like, use these things to build confidence.

[Guest]

Oh, that's amazing. We need that in today's day and age, with social media and everyone comparing themselves to each other. I have to ask you this question that I've had for a long time. So red carpets became really different over the past few years. I would say over the past, like, 20 years. But today there's this thing of dressing, like, on theme with a movie, which I. What do you think about it? I mean, you did it, though, for Dune.

[Law Roach]

I did it for my whole entire career. Now other people.

[Guest]

Now I see. Ding, ding, ding. I see why the iron. Why the highs went like that.

[Law Roach]

No, I've always. I've always done it like, we've always done it. Now it has a name now it's called method dressing.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Law Roach]

But something that.

[Guest]

So you've always done it, and now it kind of caught wind.

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

So you're into it.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. I didn't create it.

[Guest]

Yes, you did.

[Law Roach]

I didn't create it.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Law Roach]

But I did make it trendy. I would say.

[Guest]

When is the first time you remember doing it?

[Law Roach]

I mean, Zendaya at Greatest Showman Zendaya for All the Spider Man.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah. That's true, right? For all the spider. That is true.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. We've always done it.

[Guest]

Okay, guys, I'm going to translate. Law invented it. And now everybody that's doing it is basically copying. I mean, I said that and I am.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Just to be clear.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

The Met gala, how far in advance do you start working on. On something?

[Law Roach]

Well, it depends on when you get an invite. So, you know, if you have a designer that wants to work with one of your clients, you start pretty early.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

But sometimes, you know, people get invites last minute, so it just depends.

[Guest]

It depends.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Do you like going?

[Law Roach]

Oh, yeah, I do.

[Guest]

You do?

[Law Roach]

I do.

[Guest]

It doesn't stress you out? I know a lot of people, it's like their most stressed time of the year.

[Law Roach]

It is stressed. It's a. That, that, that walk up those stairs is a lot. It's a lot of cameras and. No, but I just think all that's. I like the chaos of it. I think it's fun. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

The confidence speaking. That's what it is. I have another question. A lot of stylists are in. In the backstage.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Right.

[Guest]

We don't see them. We may know their names. With you, you are pretty front facing. Is that a decision you made? Is that a choice that. Did you want that. Did that kind of happen?

[Law Roach]

Well, it just started to kind of happen because I've also done a bunch of reality television. So I did two seasons of America's Next Top Model. I was on a show called Legendary for three seasons. And then I just did OMG Fashion with Julia Fox for a season. And so that was part of it. But I also always had an exit plan. Like, I know I didn't want to be a stylist for the rest of my life. And I think when you become public facing, you just get more opportunities to do other things. And so I've always kind of. I always had that in the back of my mind. And then with Zendaya, she always, like, if I'm dressing her for a carpet, she always be like, come take a picture with me. And so that started to happen.

[Guest]

And you're her date for, like, a lot of this stuff.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, me and her assistant, Darnell.

[Guest]

That's you and her what?

[Law Roach]

Assistant Darnell. It's like a thruffle.

[Guest]

Oh, but that's smart because you're right if you want a backup plan. So this was all premeditated. Like, this is in your mind. It didn't just, like, happen. We're like, oh, I'm glad that I.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Was, you know, people know me so.

[Law Roach]

Right.

[Guest]

But it was kind of like in the back of your mind.

[Law Roach]

Yeah, I started doing reality TV in 2017.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Law Roach]

So it's just, you know, it's. And. And. And me. And I think also me. My fame or whatever is also a product of the work. Like, people just really enjoy the work and, you know, are entertained by the work.

[Guest]

And so that's why everyone was so sad when you posted that post.

[Law Roach]

Yeah. And it's just curious. They. Everybody just kind of like, it wanted to know who was the person behind the thing. Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay, so I want to do some quick cues. Some fashion cues. One trend, you're ready for it to be over.

[Law Roach]

One trend, I'm ready for it to be over. I don't know.

[Guest]

Are you really anti skinny jeans like, Gen Z is?

[Law Roach]

I'm not anti anything. Like, I think people should wear whatever they want to wear. Whatever makes you feel good.

[Guest]

Don't look me up and down.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Okay.

[Guest]

I don't know what I put on today.

[Law Roach]

You do. You chose that.

[Guest]

I saw that. You were like, I don't know what I'm into.

[Law Roach]

There's no shame.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Okay.

[Law Roach]

No, you. You chose that. You chose your outfit for a reason. I think you look beautiful.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Thank you.

[Guest]

Law. He did say that before. I don't know if you caught it.

[Law Roach]

Before you start filming. I told you he did.

[Guest]

Yeah, you did. Okay. One essential that everyone should have in their closet.

[Law Roach]

A beautiful coat. A beautiful dress coat. I cannot stand to see women dressed up with, like, a parker or a puffer coat.

[Guest]

But what do we do if cold.

[Law Roach]

It drives cold crazy fur. They make long, nice trench coats. Wool. It's really warm. Yeah. Vintage fur.

[Guest]

You're right. Because a trench, even if you're wearing, like, sweatpants.

[Law Roach]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Can make it look sexy. Yeah. Okay, I. I hear you. Favorite color of the season.

[Law Roach]

I love neutrals. I love grays. Beige.

[Guest]

Most creative fashion house of the season.

[Law Roach]

Schiaparelli.

[Guest]

Is there anybody that would make you come out of retirement aside from Zendaya and Celine Dion?

[Law Roach]

Kamala Harris.

[Guest]

Manifest. Manifest. Did you ever have a red carpet.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Mistake, like something that went wrong?

[Law Roach]

Oh, yeah. Myself. Somebody should Google me. At the CFDA Awards last year.

[Guest]

Last year.

[Law Roach]

Lash. I look crazy.

[Guest]

What, you regret it?

[Law Roach]

No, I don't regret it. It was fun. It was. But it was. It was a. It was a choice.

[Guest]

It was a choice. Okay, Google right away. What was the first designer you ever bought? What's your biggest pet peeve with a client? Like, the thing that, like, annoys you.

[Amanda Hirsch]

The most about styling.

[Law Roach]

Their management okay.

[Guest]

We know.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Lal.

[Guest]

Thank you so much for coming on.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Guest]

Everybody go get a copy of Law's book.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Yes, it's out now.

[Law Roach]

Yes.

[Guest]

And thank you so much for coming.

[Law Roach]

Thank you for having me.

[Amanda Hirsch]

Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but Not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcast and write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys. Thank you guys so much for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.