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- [00:01]
A
The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome back to the Not Skinny But Not Fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast, where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hi, guys. Welcome to a new episode of Not Skinny But Not Fat. Last week was crazy. Last week was crazy with a K. The way I kept that secret from you. The way Commander popped in again. Now, obviously, and honestly, a dream come true. Chris Jenner. That was just like a dream come true. A dream come true. And I'll just keep making those dreams come true, manifesting, believing and being entirely and totally delolo. Anyway, how is everybody? Welcome to this week's episode, which is going to air the day before my first live show. No, my live show is tomorrow. Oh, my God, no. I can't believe it's happening. Can't believe it's happening. So excited to see everyone who's coming. Like, so excited. But also, this is like a brand new thing for me. So they're like, those nerves of like, what the did I get myself into? Like, this is. This is brand new information, okay? And it's funny because after this show sold out, which obviously I was like, imposter syndrome central. Like, what? Some people are coming. It sold out so quickly. And I'm so grateful because if not, then I would like, I don't know, just run away or pull it. Justin Timberlake and like, say that I have Covid. So, so then it's like, oh, then let's do a tour. And I'm like, hold up, hold up, hold up. Let me see if I like this. And then everyone who kind of knows me is like, let me see if I like this. Like you dreaming to be on the stage since you were boring. Like, let me see if I like that. Like, all these people came for me and are like loving me and hanging out with me and. Yeah, let's see if you. Lincoln, that you're going to like, meet all your people and like, feel the community. Like, let me like it. Like telling jokes or see, I don't know, telling jokes. I'm not a stand up comedian. I don't want to pretend to be. I've seen people do live shows pretending to be stand up comedians. I did not like that. Anyway, on to the next. On to the next. We have a. No, I just. You know what happened to me right now? I just had a flashback that I Went to this event last week. I know Yervia. She's going, honestly was the coolest. Like, Lucas Gage's book party was honestly, like, the coolest event this year. Like, Lucas, just so you know, it was the sluttiest. Like, it was like a college party, but, like, with, like, young Hollywood, like, at a sleazy gay bar. Like that. But it was so cool and it was so funny because I, you know, was so. I was like, I was, like, mingling. Amanda, like, hello, Hello.
- [03:10]
B
Hi.
- [03:11]
A
I know you and me. And then, you know, so many people came up to me and talked to me about the pod, which literally, imposter syndrome. Because I act like I am the only listener of the pod. Like, oh, my God, you know me. Vodka. And they're like, yes. Like, everybody does. I'm like, no, they don't. But then, like, there was, like, this mini roast of my pod that ended up happening between, like, in this area of the bar. And I was kind of living for. And I'm like, am I like, Baldwin right now? And is this, like, is Nikki Glazer doing my roast? And I loved it. And then I left and I was like, should I have loved that as much as I did? Because they were, like, kind of. They were like, we love it. But, like, here's how you talk. And, like, here is, like, here are, like, the kinds of questions that you ask and, like, kind of making fun of me in a loving way. And I kind of loved it. I was like, roast me. Roast me. Anyway, that was just a side note. Side story. In a. In a sharp turn to the left. To the left. No, just the amount of millennial, like, references in my life are just embarrassing. Beyonce is never embarrassing, by the way.
- [04:15]
B
So to the left.
- [04:16]
A
To the left. We are having such an interesting conversation today with such a fun person. Reality star. She's on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which I got so much for saying Sister Wives by accident when I had Jennifer Affleck on. Have you heard of mom Brain? Like, have you heard of not getting enough sleep at night? Like, could you believe that? I listened to my episodes after, and I didn't hear me saying it, but so many people heard me by accident say, sister wipes were like, she should apologize to Jan. Like, are people literally okay? Like, I watch the show, if you follow me, you know that, like, watch the show. I'm obsessed with the show. I know all the girls. Like, it was a slip up. Okay. And they kind of are sister wives. No, they're not sister wives. Anyway. Non sister wives. But Mormon Wives. So Macy Neely is on today. I was fascinated by her from season one because she has such an interesting story that the show doesn't really delve into, but it's, like, crazy. Okay. Like, teen pregnancy, dead boyfriend, like, just wild, wild, wild stories and how she got to where she is today. And she's such a lovely person. I feel like that always came across on the show, but we kind of didn't know, like, what's beneath that, like, kindness and that smile and that, like, acceptance, like, just so interesting to me. I read her book. It's called told you so. So good. Learned so much about her, and she's on today to talk about it. So Macy's book, told you so is available now everywhere. Books are sold. Enjoy my conversation with Macy Neely. So excited for you to be on Macy, especially after reading your book.
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B
Yeah. What'd you think?
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A
I was blown away. I was blown away by it. Like, your story, which. I'm kind of mad for you. Let's get right into it.
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B
Let's do it. Let's do it.
- [06:27]
A
Why wasn't it included in season one? I know you filmed for it a bit, and it's so important in such a big tragedy. Yeah.
- [06:38]
B
I mean, it's hard to say because I don't have any control over the edit, but I don't know. I always just say, like, I'm not enough drama for them. Like, I don't know. They always take, like, the juiciest stuff that's going on, like, in current time, and that's what they roll with. So I feel like the. Which is kind of sad because, like, the stories that are impactful and that are relatable sometimes get cut. So, like, mine got cut. I know Michaela's got cut season one, but she got it, like, part of it in season two, and I think she'll probably have it in season three. But, yeah, for whatever reason they. I don't know. And it happens pretty, pretty often, I would say. So. There was a lot more that, like, when they did show part of my story in season two, that was only, like, two scenes out of, like, six that I filmed for it. So it is, like, obviously a little disappointing. But at the same time, I was like, well, at least I can tell my story in my own way in my book. Yeah.
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A
Yeah, it worked out that way, I guess, because if you would have told it kind of all in huge detail, you know, maybe you wouldn't have.
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B
You may not have wanted to read it. Yeah.
- [07:38]
A
Or maybe. Yeah, you wouldn't have felt the need to kind of write the book, start writing it. Was this book born out of the journals that you mentioned you were writing in? In the book?
- [07:49]
B
Yes. Yes. No, it was so like, that was a big part of it. And I. That was the inspiration behind writing it, to be honest, was like my dad coming in and I was just like a bratty, you know, kid living with my parents again. I was just like, whatever. And then I started writing it because it actually felt good to write, which is funny because it feels like old fashioned, but I was like, I feel like it was like a way for me to vent how I was feeling. Like I couldn't share those feelings, like out loud. So it was like a good source for me during, like going through everything. And so I love that. And then it turns obviously into inspiration for the book. And then I also wrote a blog in the past. It's kind of like a framework of that with the diary. And like, I had read some other parts in the past too. I just never really, like turned it into a book. So it's kind of combining all that together and then adding obviously more like stories and like fun stuff that people don't know. And so, yeah, so I'm hoping people can get to know my personality in it too. Sometimes it's hard to relay it in a book, even when it's like so serious and stuff because we did cut some of like my really dark humor, which is probably for good reason because I think you have been like, there's something wrong with her, but it's just like kind of how I cope. But yeah, so I'm really happy that I could like, can put it together in a book.
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A
Tell me about you gave birth in July. End of July.
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B
And no.
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A
Charlie May. Three. Three. Three months.
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B
No, two. I think she wants today. Yeah, two months. Today on the 23rd of July.
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A
Oh, it's the 23rd today. 23rd. Two months.
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B
Yeah, I know. She's so cute. I, like, obsessed with her.
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A
You're in love?
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B
I'm in love. I'm in baby heaven, basically.
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A
And this is your third child?
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B
Yes, number three.
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A
So in the book it's called told you so. Which, by the way, is that your dad. Your dad told you so. Is that the vibe?
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B
Yeah. You're the first person to actually get it right off the bat. Yeah, it's basically the vibe of like my parents.
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A
And maybe I'm the first person that actually read it. Maybe.
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B
Truly. Maybe that's the case because you. You understood the assignment. Yeah, basically it Comes from, like, my parents and I told you not to date that guy. Told you not to be. And then it's like, see what happened? He didn't listen. This happened. And it's like. But I always say, like, I'm someone who kind of has to figure things out for myself to know what I want to do. Like, I'm very, like, a curious person. I guess so either way, them telling me told you so didn't really affect my future.
- [10:11]
A
Yeah. It's kind of like you were saying before that some things don't get shown of yours because maybe you're not that, like, salacious and, you know, juicy. But, like, in this book, we really find out that you are, like, you are a naughty girl.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You are a naughty Mormon girl, which I feel like your vibe on the show doesn't really give that.
- [10:36]
B
Yeah.
- [10:36]
A
So you get to know this, like, other side of you. Like, you were drinking, you were doing sexual things, which you are very vulgar about in the book. I mean, you say it. You say the words. The. The I would say, you know, I'd be reading, then I'd be like, fingering me. You know what I mean? I'd be like, oh, okay.
- [10:53]
B
Hello. I know, right? I know. It's just, like, funny because that's, like, how I am in, like, real life, and I am who I am on the show, but I feel like, yeah, like, how things are edited, like, I can't control. Like, there's, like, little glimpses if you pay attention to the show, that you'll see. I think, like, season one, someone pointed it out how I said, like, when we had the Fruity Pebbles bag out, and I was like, oh, that smells like the weed I used to smoke. And someone's like, right. Like, there's, like, a couple people who noticed it, but it's like, it's funny because I get labeled as, like, a saint on the show, but people who know me or my pastor, like, how are you a saint? And I'm like, because I currently don't, like, do that stuff. It's because, like, in the past, maybe I was a sinner, sure. But I'm a label the same. Because I don't, like, do that stuff anymore because, honestly, I couldn't handle it. That's part of the big reason why.
- [11:38]
A
I mean, you've been through a lot in this book. You really detail this abusive relationship you had with a guy that you named Dick, which is. You name him Dick, right? That's not his name. Yeah, so we. We name him Dick, which is Kind of funny. Again, like you were saying with your dark humor, dick is a dick, so.
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B
Exactly.
- [11:58]
A
So tell me a little bit more about that abusive relationship, because you do get into it in the book, but I would like to hear from you, like, a little bit more about that.
- [12:07]
B
Yeah, and it's funny because I also did film a little bit of this story for the show as well. That didn't make it. I literally went to the site, like, the apartment complex where I was assaulted and stuff too, which is very vulnerable and stuff to do, but it's not shown. And I don't know if it's because it's too heavy of content for the show. I'm like, this is, like, too much for viewers to handle. But, I mean, I am glad that I could talk about in the book because it's freeing. But I also, like, wanted to expose, like, I don't know, kind of what was going on, because I think this can happen in a lot of relationships where maybe you have a partner who's older than you and so you. They try to make you feel like you don't know what you're doing. Because I think that was a common theme in this relationship. It was kind of like, well, you've never had a boyfriend before, so you don't know how to be a good girlfriend. This is what good girlfriends do and stuff. And so I was so, like, manipulated when I was younger by him. I just didn't realize, like, what was even going on. And so I think that's a big part of why I wanted to talk about it is because there probably are other younger women too, going through this, or maybe they aren't yet, and they meet someone and they can spot the red flags. And that's kind of my hope with writing it all. But, yeah, basically I was just in a very abusive relationship for, I think it was like a year, a full year, a little over a year. But it started out, like, very subtle, like, little. Little red flags. But I was so young, I knew.
- [13:21]
A
That he was, like, controlling. Right. Were those the red flags?
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B
Controlling, like, possessive, jealous, love bombing. But, like, at the time, since I never had been in, like, a real relationship, I was like. I didn't know, like, what to look for. I guess I didn't realize that those were, like, red flags, I guess. And so I kind of, like, went along with it. It's like little things, like, I'm trying to think, like, here's the many flowers in the regular, which is great. But like, stuff like that, like, big love bombing things, like Buy me a Tiffany's necklace. After knowing him for, like, a month and stuff, I was like, oh, my gosh, this Prince Charming, right? But then it came with a cost because then it's like, I would go to, like, tennis practice, and we'd do, like, dinners after, and he would freak out about me, like, because there would be, like, the opposite sex there. Even though these were, like, just friends, you know, little things like that. Like, not being able to go to, like, I talk about in the book, like, not being able to go to, like, a concert because other guys were invited, too. And it's like, so anywhere I went where there was, like, a male species nearby, like, was not allowed, he would freak out. He would freak out. It's like little things like that. That. It's like, well, you're. You've never been, like, a girlfriend before, so, like, you don't know that this is not okay. So I'd be like, oh, I guess this isn't okay. Like, I don't know. I was just, like, so manipulated that I just didn't understand, like, what was happening to me until, like, it got really bad.
- [14:34]
A
What was the first time you noticed that he was abusive or that he did something physical?
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B
The first time we did something physical, I feel like, was when we went to, like, college. So once I got to college, we were going to the same college together. That's when it turned physical. And that mostly happened, like, when he was drinking. Like, he turned into, like, an even worse person. I always. I said in the book, but, like, his eyes would turn, like, black. Like, it was, like, almost like a different person than he was, would come out as well. And the first things that happened were, like, subtle. It was more like, like, pushing and stuff. And then it turned, obviously, like, later, and I talked about, like, choking and things like that, like shoving and, like, it. And then obviously I was sexually assaulted by him. And that happened, like, multiple times. And I don't know how much detail I gave about that, but because I was like, I'll talk about the big events and, like, the little ones. I'm like, let's just not get any.
- [15:24]
A
Talks about a time where he would, like. He would also threaten in front of you that he would hurt himself. Right. He would, like, cut himself with scissors. And you thought he would be doing that to you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And you know what I noticed in the way you were writing it was that, you know, you would talk about these sexual things that you were doing with him, but none of it was fun for you at the time. Like, you just did it. Tell me about that. Like, you just did it because he expected it of you, because you were like, I'm doing it. It's not fun. And, like, those things are supposed to be fun, which I'm sure you found out, right?
- [16:00]
B
Yes. Which took, obviously, some time, because I felt like during it, it was like, almost felt like a chore. It's like how people feel, like, when they're married for 10 years. They're like. Like, a lot of women complain about that, right? But, like, that's how it felt. Like, when it should be fun, when you're, like, in a first relationship and you're experimenting and it wasn't like that. It was most definitely felt like a chore and, like, work and stuff. And it's like, I literally felt like as soon as I finished tennis practice, you'd pick me up. And I knew he would just take me to his apartment to try to, like, do sex with me. Like, it wasn't fun. Like, it was just, like. I just felt like it's something I had to do or to, like, yell at me and stuff. So I feel. I felt kind of trapped. It's like I did it just to not have a fight, you know? And, like, obviously, like, I could have said no. I fought back more, but I was just exhausted, like, at that point. And I was just like, hey, like, whatever. Let me just get it.
- [16:44]
A
You were really, like, it's caught in it. And also, he had stuff on you, right? You said that, like, because you kind of got into the drinking scene and you smoked and you did these sexual things. Like, you thought that he could expose you and you could get expelled.
- [16:59]
B
Yeah, and he threatened that, too. So it's not. Not even. Like, I thought he could. Like, if I ever tried to break up with him, he'd be like, okay, well, you're. You're screwed now. Like, I'm going to by and I'm sending them these pictures that I took of you, so. And I'd be like, oh, no, no, I was just kidding. Like, I love you. You know? Like, I'd have to, like, backpedal really hard because I was like, my tennis scholarship was everything I ever worked for. So, like, to have that taken away by this guy who's, like, ruining my life would be, like, devastating. Did you share that with everyone?
- [17:26]
A
Right. Did you share anything about him at the time, like, with your sister? Like, oh, I think he might be, like, a little bad news.
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B
No.
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A
No.
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B
And I feel like it's because I was so intertwined in it, too. And I just, like, I was trying to convince myself, too, that I, like, loved him. I was like, oh, like, I love this person. Like, this and that. Like, what? I knew it wasn't, like, real love, right? Because, like, sometimes just being around him, like, just. It honestly, he gave me the, like, all the time. Just because I was so annoyed by him and, like, grossed out because I always had to do sexual things. I was just over it. Like, he's a very. Like, he's an attractive guy and some great body, but I was like, after a while, it's just like, you don't love that person because of what they're doing to you. And I was, like, just so grossed out by everything he did, to be honest. But I didn't tell anyone because, I mean, I just felt so trapped in it. And I was like, if I tell a friend and they tell my sister, and then, like, she tries to get me to leave, then she doesn't know I'm being blackmailed, and then I get kicked out. Like, it was just kind of like a big web, right? Like, I could tell anyone because I felt like if I did, and my sister's like, you got to leave him. That she doesn't understand that I'm being blackmailed behind the scenes. And even if I told her, like, I know she tell my dad, and I'm like, is my dad to try to kill this man? And, like, I want to have a dad, not a dad in jail. So, like, I was like, I was going through, like, all these.
- [18:35]
A
You were spiraling and seeing, like, the worst case scenario if you opened your mouth.
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B
Oh, always, like. And part of me, like, goes back and, like, I wish I did, but at the same time, like, I was so young. I was, like, 18 and 19 during this time. So it was like I was doing it, like, the best I thought I could do at the time, you know? And that's part of the reason why the trauma from this is so hard to heal from, because I did put most the blame on myself, honestly, all the blame, until I went to therapy, because I was like, wow, you're so dumb. Like, how did you not know? But then I'm like, I had to look back and be like, Well, I was 18. Like, I only knew what I knew in that moment. And I did the best I could, like, in that moment, you know? But it definitely, like, was making me, like, a different person, too. Like, I was not a happy person during this time.
- [19:20]
A
So the worst thing he did was the. The sexual assault, which you detail in the book. So he.
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B
Yeah.
- [19:26]
A
He basically drugged you, right? To have sex?
- [19:30]
B
Yes.
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A
Did you ever find out exactly what was what. What you took or what he. What you ingested?
- [19:37]
B
No, I don't. Like, it's basically just coming from, like, assumptions, because at this point, I was drinking all the time. Like, I was not a lightweight. So for me to not even finish one drink, knowing that, like, this man had this, like, little lock box full of prescription pills. And, like, some of the things you try to get me to take in the past, like, you sometimes be like, oh, I'll take this pill, whatever. And it usually is, like, clonazepam and things like that. Like, when it's mixed with alcohol, it's like, memory loss and different things like that. So I don't have, like, definite proof, right. Because I couldn't know. But, like, that is obviously my assumption because he had prescriptions for that, like, clonal pin. Like, all those ones that, when you mix the alcohol, like, lead to memory loss and things like that. And I didn't take anything that night. Like, I remember that was done quite over.
- [20:21]
A
So you just woke up not remembering what happened, but you were just naked and you realized that this happened?
- [20:28]
B
Yeah, it's like, I had, like. So when I woke up the next morning and, like, we went to breakfast, as I talked about in the book, like, when he was like, oh, we had sex last night. I was like, no, we didn't. I was like, what is he talking about? I, like, started thinking about it over and over again, trying to remember what happened. I was like, I can't really remember anything last night. And then I. The only thing I could remember was, like, flashes. And it was like flashes of him on top of me. Like, I was naked. And I was like, it's like when you're in a scary dream and you, like, can't talk. Like, you have a voice or you're trying to run, but your legs don't work. Like, that's how it felt being like, I don't want to. I don't want to, you know? And that was, like, the only memory I had of the night was, like, that. And, like, just two flashes of that pretty much. And that was it. And so I knew in my gut, like, what had happened, But I don't know. Like, then he was pinpointing on me, like, how could you not remember our first worst time? Like, you're the worst girlfriend. And so I was like. Then I almost felt like I was like, the bad slate you. Oh. Like, everything was turned back on to me to where like I just always carried the guilt and the shame. So you like when I was trying to heal from all of this, like I put everything on myself because I'm like, why didn't I know? Why didn't I speak up? Why didn't I do this? There are so many things I wish I would have done but like obviously now, if it was me now, a hundred percent like I would have done, but like back then I just like didn't.
- [21:40]
A
What would you have done? What would you have done after today? Like, you think you would have went to the police?
- [21:46]
B
Honestly, yeah. If it, if this same situation happened to now, I would have for sure. Just because of the knowledge that I have now compared to back then and like sticking up for myself and advocating for myself, which I didn't do back then.
- [21:59]
A
We'll be right back after the break. So I've told this story before, but I will tell it again because it is important for everybody to know, for every mom to know. As you know, with my first son Noah, I breastfed up the wazoo literally over two years. It was Covid times, it was crazy. He never took a bottle. By the time I wanted to implement a bottle. By the way, if you want your baby to take a bottle at some point, you need to implement it from the beginning. So they are used to it. That's, that's a hot tip now because I knew that from my experience with Noah, I knew that with Lenny I was going to breastfeed, but I was also going to supplement with some formula I wanted to also pump. So if somebody else is taking care of him, they can give him a bottle. And if I didn't have any pumped milk, I wanted him to take formula as well. So I did a lot of research on what the best formula is for a baby and I found By Heart. So By Heart is an infant nutrition company that just makes the best infant formula. They use the latest in breast milk science. They created a clinically proven, easy to digest infant formula that's made with organic grass fed whole milk, certified clean ingredients. And they feature a patented protein blend that really gets the closest to breast milk. So when I found out that there is by hard and they make a formula with organic grass fed whole milk. Sold, Sold. And really this is the best formula that I found on the market. So I highly recommend it. If you're curious about buy Heart head to by heart.com that's spelled by B Y and then heart H E A R T. You can use my code not skinny30 to save 30% off your first subscription order for a limited time buy. Heart is also available at Target, Walmart, and major retailers nationwide. Highly recommend you guys use my code, not skinny 30, or check them out in stores today. Additional terms and conditions apply. You guys, I'm coming in hot from the studio. We were just saying it's so cold in studio today. That's why I'm wearing my Columbia amaze puff hooded jacket. This is the waist length one, so it gives a little bit of cropped vibes. And I love this color. This color is tobacco. They also have, like, more metallic colors if you're into that vibe. I'm kind of into this, like, brown shade this fall. This is my new color this fall. Mark my words, it's gonna be like the color. Mark my words. Like I said, it comes in three different lengths. It comes in a waist length, a mid, and a long. Kind of loving the waist length because when I stand up, it does give kind of cropped Also, you know, I love a little thumb hole situation. I also love how not only is it so cozy, warm, and comfortable, it's also chic. And that's important because I don't know if you guys remember, Law Roach was on my pod and he was like, getting the ick from winter coats. And he was like, people think that you could just like, wear winter coats and look ugly to be warm. Not the case with this amaze puff hooded jacket. You could do both. You could look cute, and you could be warm and cozy and comfortable. Also, this obviously water resistant and this hood that we like. It can come off if you don't want it. You guys, it's removable, which I love that because sometimes you just want, like, a cropped jacket look without a hood. Literally. This feels like I'm like, wearing a hug. I'm obsessed with it. I'm telling you guys, the amaze puff hooded jacket is the one that you need this winter season. Head to Columbia.com to get your amaze puff hooded jacket. They're tough on cold, soft on you. Okay, you guys, you need to hear this because I have the ultimate boot wreck for the season. Like, these are it. And I have a discount code for you, so don't go anywhere. If you know me, you know that I'm all about comfort, okay? I need comfort and I need cute and I need it together. And I found it in footwear, and it's called Frankie 4. So boot season is here, which I'm so excited about. There's nothing I love more than Like a jean and a boot like, like my fave. My fave, my fave. And if you're gonna buy one pair this year, it has to be the Liberty Boot from Frankie4. They've been the number one best selling boot for two years straight. And when you put them on, you're gonna get it. They're so comfortable. They're crafted with a podiatrist design footbed. Like actually a boot made to support your feet. But they still look chic. Okay. Because we're aging you guys, but we're aging chicly. All right. They also come with this little custom fit pack that lets you tweak the fit if you need it to be narrower, if you're just like a regular foot sized girl or wide. So this is super helpful. Super genius. Don't even get me started on their new After Dark collection. They have knee highs. They have sneakers, they have ballet flats, they have heels, they have loafers. They literally have everything. And if you want to check out their stuff, it's going to give just perfect fall turning into winter vibes. You're just gonna look like you're on the subtle Gossip Girl, honestly. So go to us.frankiefour.com and you can use my code, not skinny, to get 20 off your first order. That's us dot Frankie for the number four dot com. The code is not skinny for 20 off. Go get your boots before they sell out and thank me later. And we're back. So your saving grace was really that he left school?
- [27:44]
B
Yeah. Honestly, if he didn't, I don't know, honestly, what would have happened? Like, I don't. I bet I think I would have been so fed up because I already gained that point that maybe I would have just been like, screw it. Like, go ahead and send the photos. Like, see if I care. Because I got to that point where I was so over it. That was like, if he does do it, like, so be it. Because I, like, want to die being with him.
- [28:06]
A
When you say those things in the book, because you do say you have a dark humor, but you say a few times about wanting to die or not wanting to be alive. Like, were those serious thoughts? Like, did you feel that depressed at times that you did have thoughts like that?
- [28:21]
B
Oh, 100. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I never really was, like making an, you know, a plan or anything like that. Right. But it was like, it was a constant, like, stream of thought, like all the time when I was pregnant.
- [28:33]
A
When you're pregnant. So let's get to that. So you met. And is it Eric just with an A?
- [28:37]
B
Yeah. Okay, good.
- [28:39]
A
Sometimes I read names and I just make up my own pronunciation, so this is straightforward. Okay, so Eric with an A, which is just the tragedy that we hear a little bit about on the show, how you. The. The. The father of your first child died in a car crash. In the book, we really get into detail about your relationship, how your dad was against it, how you got pregnant, and ultimately he died when you were pregnant. Tell me about meeting him. How. How long after the Dick breakup did you meet him?
- [29:13]
B
So I had met him one time previously when I was dating Dick, but, like, obviously didn't think much of him because I was in a relationship. And then I think it was only two. It was two weeks after I ended my, like, things with Dick, and I, we kind of reconvene because he was hanging out with one of my friends. And so I saw him, and I think that was the first time I really saw him where I was like, wait, who is that? Like, he's, like, so attractive. I'm like, oh, that's Eric. And I know I met him, like, one other time, but, like, kind of overlooked everything because I was so deep in the thick of that abusive relationship. And I was like, oh, he's really cute. But, like, the first couple times we hung out, I just saw him as a friend because he was kind of like an annoying little brother or something, or he was kind of, like, trolling me, and I was like, hey, what? And then it was like, until I hung out with him alone, where I was like, oh, he's actually really cool. Like, he's really fun. He just has, like, a really, like, he's a big, like, jokester. Like, love to joke around, like, have fun and, like, sometimes be obnoxious. But, like, he stopped doing, like, the annoying things. Like, once I hung out alone with.
- [30:08]
A
Him, like, he tried to maybe get more, like, get more, like, player vibes and not, like, little brother vibes. Because maybe he liked you.
- [30:17]
B
Yes. Yes. No, for sure. Because in the beginning, like, I remember he's in the back seat. My friend's party kept, like, reaching his foot up and taking Snapchats of my double chin. And I was like, okay, you're done. Like, stop doing that. Like, stuff like that. Where I was like, okay, who is.
- [30:30]
A
Wow, you really loved Snapchat during this time. There's a lot of Snapchat in there.
- [30:35]
B
Snapchat was, like, the thing I feel like in college. Like, it was like, Snapchat, Instagram, and, like, everyone Snapchatted, like to talk to each other.
- [30:43]
A
Do you still Snapchat? People are back kind of on Snapchat though now.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah, my manager isn't trying to get me on there because she's like, everyone's going back on, like, it's a good like, platform, but I just, I don't know how to use it anymore.
- [30:55]
A
I know, I know. I look back on too at like the, all the selfies and the. Oh my God, it was a, it was even a more narcissistic time than I think Instagram, just because it was so self centered, the Snapchat. So Eric seems like a great guy and you meet him and he's not dick. But your dad, your parents, they, they're like not into him. They don't want this relationship. They want you to break up. What did they, what is the vibe they got from him? And why did, why do you think they wanted you to, to, to break up with him?
- [31:26]
B
I think it's because they saw like the player vibe. Like he looked kind of like a bad boy and he was. I mean, but keep in mind my parents didn't know that I was like drinking, like partying, having sex this time. So it's like, for them, like they assumed he was and they're like, okay, stay away from my daughter, you know, kind of thing, because I think that's like a big part of it. And then also because my, my dad had Snapchat too, because he'd like talk to me through Snapchat sometimes, not all the time, but like for fun, you know, and like to keep up with like what his kids are doing and so he can, you know, how I could be used to see like the people's top three people they snapped or whatever.
- [31:57]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [31:58]
B
So he was like on the top, but his username was Eric Mack Daddy 69. So my dad called that and he was like, okay, this is bad news. So like, yeah, it was a good snatch. I hit name he probably made like in middle school or high school or whatever. And so my dad saw that and like, he's a bad boy kind of thing. Like, the parents were like, not a fan and they didn't.
- [32:16]
A
I mean, then they had no idea about dick, so they didn't know that, like, you actually dated a really bad guy.
- [32:23]
B
Exactly.
- [32:24]
A
Before.
- [32:24]
B
Yes.
- [32:25]
A
So where are the good Mormons? Because all we're hearing about is like, like everyone you dated and you were around was drinking. Like, we're doing all the like naughty things. What's byu? Like, are most of the people like you guys or most of the people are like, straight edge and. And listening.
- [32:46]
B
And I would say most people are listening and good. I think it's like. I think it's just like any school, you could go to any school and find, like, what you're looking for. And so, like, if you want to go to a school and party, doesn't matter if it's a dry campus. I think you'll find it. I just so happen to find it very quickly. I wasn't looking for it because I went to BYU and I didn't drink or anything. So it's like, ironic that, like, I go to this. Like, you fell into it and like, become this, like, partier. Whatever. No, like, when I. It's so funny because I always had the culture shock. Going from California to Utah, going to byu, because my first week there, people are very nice. That's what I will say is people are so friendly in Utah. So that was a little different for me, like, coming from California. But I remember, like, walking down the dorm hallway and there were girls, like, sitting in like a circle listening to Frozen and like, singing Frozen songs, like, in a circle. And I was like, what the hell? I was like, where am I? Like, because I'm like, I'm Mormon. I don't. I follow the rules, but I'm not.
- [33:41]
A
Like that, you know, like, it's a little nerdy. Like a little like. Are you seven?
- [33:45]
B
Yeah. It's kind of like being in like, high school or like middle school, you know, where there's still rules. Like, there's so many rules even in the dorms. Like, you can't. If you have a guy in your dorm, the door has to be open and it ha. You have to have your feet on the ground. Like, you can't have. And by that it means, like, you know how the beds are kind of raised because you put like, your stuff. You can't have your. A guy on your bed. Like, their feet have to be in the grass. They don't want you to, like, hooking up in the beds or anything. And like, there are certain visiting hours that they could come. Like. So it's like very strict. Strict there.
- [34:13]
A
Very strict. But you got around it. And nobody would have found out if you didn't get Expose it.
- [34:19]
B
Yeah, well, I get pregnant. Yeah. And expose it. But like, even then, no one, like, what's written the book? No one knew this in real life because I never got in trouble with honor code at byu. It's like they have this big honor code, but I never Got in trouble because I withdrew. So I was no longer a student to get in trouble. So I kind of got away with everything.
- [34:35]
A
Wait, you withdrew only when you got pregnant? No.
- [34:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, I did. So, like, all the things I did before then, like, no one knew about because obviously never. No one ever told on me. I never got caught. And then I got pregnant. I never got into with honor code. I just withdrew. So I'm no longer a student to get in trouble. If honor could have come out, they would have kicked me out.
- [34:56]
A
But they let you come back knowing that you did get pregnant.
- [35:00]
B
Not honor code, but like, oh, I just kind of went around it, like, I just got my. You have to get this thing called your ecclesiastical endorsement through your church leaders. And so I just got that because I was like, did a whole repentance process. Pretty much was a gone for 11 months.
- [35:15]
A
Tell me about meeting with this bishop and him basically shaming you and, you know, telling you it's all your fault and. And continuing to have to do that, even though you clocked it that he was like this on the first time.
- [35:29]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, you know, my parents, I think, are. Even though I was pregnant, they weren't happy about it. My parents are pretty. Still pretty chill and stuff. So after I told my dad, like, that it was, like, the worst experience in my life. I was, like, so sad. I was crying to him about how awful it was talking to my bishop, and he was like, if he doesn't want you back in school. My dad was, like, so mad. He was, like, yelling, then he's going to have to go through me. My dad was, like, pissed that he, like, obviously treated me that way. And also, like, my dad's like, if he tries to prevent you from going back to byu, like, after a full year of repentance, like, we're going to have some issues here. So I think I'm really glad that my parents were always very supportive of me. My dad's kind of just like, well, just kind of kiss his ass and be nice and get that endorsement back, and then who cares, you know? So I feel like my parents, luckily, like, if my parents weren't as supportive as they were, I think it'd be a lot harder. But since they were always on my side of my team, it made things easier. Even though, like, going through that process with the bishop was just horrific.
- [36:23]
A
What if your daughter had to, you know, repent? Like, what. What would you. Would you want your daughters going to byu, being part of this world, like, if they were caught Doing something like this, would you be. How would you deal with that? Like, because I know how you felt doing it, you know?
- [36:41]
B
Yeah, no, I, I think that this is a lot, actually. And I, first of all, I don't want my daughter ever repenting to a middle aged man. Like, that's just not gonna happen. Like, I'm sorry. Like, it's just not. And I think it's just tradition in the church. My parents are kind of like, this is like the steps that you're supposed to do. Like, I don't know. And so we're all kind of navigating it together. So I obviously can't blame them for that. But I mean, I talk to my mom about it all the time. Like, I'm never having my daughter repent to a middle aged man. Like, it's just not happening. Like, she can work through it with me or like, if she really wants to do that repentance process, I'll be in the room with her with this man. Like, so that's kind of like my thoughts on that. As far as byu, I, Even though, like, obviously I had a rough time there for some of it. Like, I also had a great experience and I love, I honestly love the school. Like, I love the. I had great teachers, professors, athletic directors, and so I'm super grateful for that. So, like, I wouldn't be opposed to my kids going there. Like, I would, honestly, I would encourage it. But, like, if they mess up, like, I'm gonna be mama bear. Like, I'm there for them. Like, there's no doubt about it. Like, they were gonna get kicked out of the school. If they'd messed up, I'd be like, all right, let's go to a different school. Who cares? Like, I don't know.
- [37:43]
A
So are you raising them in a more. In a less traditional Mormon household? Like, you are Mormon, but there are things that are allowed. Like, how do you set that, Set those boundaries?
- [37:56]
B
Yeah, I, I would say exactly that. Kind of just. We're Mormon, we're active in the church, we follow mostly guidelines, but certain things that I don't agree with or how things are handled, like, I'm just gonna deal with that on my own. So, like, I mean, I would prefer my kids don't drink and have sex, right? But like, if they do, like, I'm. There's an open door, you know, Like, I'm here for you. Like, I don't want you to get hurt or get in trouble. Like, let me be there for you so you don't have to Like. Like, you don't feel like you have to hide anything. So that's kind of, like, my goal. My husband and I have talked about it because he also kind of, like, went through a little, like, party stage in high school and college or whatever. So we're both kind of on the same page where it's like, open door, like, here for our kids. Like, they don't have to feel shame or guilt, like, because, you know, like, they're teenagers. Like, kids are naturally probably gonna have sex before marriage. Like, it's fairly normal. Right. Like, for Mormons it's not, but, like. Yeah. So I think just keeping a very open environment, making my kids feel comfortable to come to us is very important to me.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah. Because. Do you drink now? Like, where are you at with that? You don't?
- [38:57]
B
I haven't drank since I got pregnant. Like, 2015.
- [39:01]
A
Really?
- [39:02]
B
Yes. Isn't that wild? And I also feel like it's because I didn't handle it well. Like, as you read in the book, like, I was like, all or nothing. And so I feel like that's kind of how I have as a personality. And I'm like, I just don't even want to open that door because I just don't think it would be good for me in general. So that's kind of like a big.
- [39:18]
A
I mean, the way you were writing was kind of, like, you liked the numb feeling. It helped you deal with things. So you're. You're saying the Mormon thing also, but also you feel like you could get out of control with it and you don't want to.
- [39:33]
B
Yeah, that's, like, one of the big reasons is that. And, yeah, I just don't know, because I think I was a different person back then. And I feel like I've done a lot to improve who I am. And so part of. Music off. I did that again.
- [39:43]
A
I.
- [39:44]
B
And I know it's not true, but I'm like, would I turn back into that person? Like, I. I don't know. Like, I have almost, like, a little superstition or something, and PTSD and superstition. Like, even in a religious context, it's like. I mean, I wasn't making great choices. Right. For a Mormon. And then, like, all these bad things happened. And so part of me is like. And I know God wouldn't do that, but, like, the superstition in me is like, oh. Like, I don't. I don't even want to think about it, you know?
- [40:10]
A
So tell me about finding out that you're pregnant. You're dating Eric. You're how old? 18 or 19 or.
- [40:16]
B
Yeah, I was 19 when I dated Eric. Yeah.
- [40:19]
A
You found out you're pregnant at first. You totally. You know, you describe really wanting to. Which. Which I think you. Sharing those moments is very vulnerable, and I'm sure hard to write and say and. But a lot of women have probably felt that before were you maybe didn't want this baby, and it came out of nowhere, and you are contemplating a bunch of things. Your family, Your dad even told you, like, to maybe not keep it, right?
- [40:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was just kind of like, we are here to support you, like, with whatever decision you make, you know? So, like, you want to get this baby up for adoption. Like, we're here to support you. Find the best place to do that, like, and find you the resources to where you could, you know, give your baby to someone you really trust and, like, love if that's what you want to do. But my parents never pressured me to do adoption. They're just kind of like, whatever you decide to do is like, what you decide to do, and we're here to support you. Which is. Which I'm super grateful for, because if I would have felt that pressure, I would have felt guilt keeping the baby. And if I would have felt that pressure, maybe I would have given my baby up for adoption, regretted it or. You know, I think that it can also. I think it's so admirable for people who do that. I think for me, if I did, I would have a lot of, like, what ifs, you know, And I think that would have been hard for me as well to do that. And so, obviously, I'm so glad that I kept my son because I. It did honestly change me for the better. Like, I think you're in the book. It's like, I went from getting, like, a 1.9 GPA because I just didn't go to school. I was like, whatever, I'm here for tennis, like, to being like, well, shit, I can be a single mom, so, like, I better get my shit together. And I started, like, trying hard in school, and, like, I overall, like, improved my life because of becoming a mom and, like, and wanting to be the best for my son. And that's why the book is dedicated to him. And that's also why I call him my saving grace, because, like, I feel like he's truly, like, not only changed my life for the better, but changed me as a person for the better. Like, everything that I went through, as traumatic and hard as it was changed Me into a lot better person today.
- [42:18]
A
And that's so. I mean, he's nine now, is he not?
- [42:21]
B
He just turned 10 on Sunday.
- [42:22]
A
Turned 10? That is crazy.
- [42:25]
B
So crazy. I can't even believe it.
- [42:27]
A
Do you see Eric in him as his dad?
- [42:30]
B
Yeah, it's hard to say because I feel like he does look like me, but I think he might be a good mixture. It's just hard to tell. But, like, he. He just has, like, this crazy, wild, outgoing personality that does remind me of his dad. Because I was a shy kid. Like, I was so shy, surprisingly, because it's funny, I'm now doing careers where I'm on camera, but, like, I was the shyest kid ever, and my son is the opposite. Like, he. To me. And I think it's because I was a single mom. And so growing up, he didn't really have little friends because none of my friends had kids. And so he's just around adults all the time.
- [43:00]
A
Yeah.
- [43:01]
B
So I. Everyone always says, like, he talks and acts like he's a teenager. Like, he's, like, 16. So he's. And he, like, teaches me new things all the time. And I always tell him, like, you keep me young. Like, he teaches me, like, all the slang. Now I'm like, I'm getting too old. I don't know the slang. And so he'll teach me, like, all these things, which is so funny. But. No. Yeah, it's. It's wild. He's just the best.
- [43:21]
A
And when did you. Did you tell him about what happened to his dad? Yeah.
- [43:26]
B
No, he knows. I told him when he was, like, four, I think. Like. But obviously he didn't really understand. And so, like, if he asked questions or anything, like, I'll answer them. He doesn't actually ask that much. Like, I think, actually, was it yesterday? He asked me a question. I can't remember what it was. He was like, did Eric do this? Or, like, was Enzoc. Like, answer them, however, but. And he also sees his grandparents on that side, too, so. Oh.
- [43:50]
A
So I was gonna ask, are you in touch with Eric's parents?
- [43:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So they do live now, like, 45, 50 minutes away. So it makes it a little bit harder to hang out. But they'll come to his, like, baseball games. I'll invite him, invite them to his baseball games. And then, like, we'll do dinner after, or sometimes we'll just, like, take him for a day and stuff. So he gets to have that. That part of his dad as well, which is really nice.
- [44:12]
A
That is nice. And does he Call Jacob your husband dad.
- [44:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, he's been his life since he was like 10 months old. So, like, that's all he knows. You know, it just happened naturally. I never said, like, call him dad. Like, he just did it naturally, which is like. So honestly, it's the best situation it could possibly be considering the circumstances.
- [44:31]
A
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See Mint Mobile for details. And we're back. So tell me a little bit about losing Eric in this way. You had a fight, your dad told you so, and you. Yeah, and by the way, I did not see that. Did not see that coming. You find out that he did up things while you were in a relationship, you're not answering his text, and the next thing you find out is that he's gone via Instagram. So tell me a little bit about. I mean, and you're pregnant at that time with his child. I mean.
- [50:29]
B
Yeah.
- [50:29]
A
Insane.
- [50:31]
B
I know. Sometimes it doesn't feel real. Like, you just saying that out loud, like, literally gave me chills in my arms because I, like, forget sometimes. Like, all that.
- [50:38]
A
Especially like you write. It's like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:41]
B
Like, sometimes I forget, like, that all happened to me, which is crazy because it's been like 10 years now. But, like, sometimes talking about it, it feels like it just happened, which is so crazy. And I think that's why when you watch the show and you see how emotional I am going to the crash site, it's because it's like, it does feel like yesterday sometimes. Like, I think healing grief, like, it's obviously not linear, as most people say, but it's like, you know, it comes in waves. Even now, it's like I'm happy, but, like, there's times where I still feel that, you know, usually every March is a little somber for me because that's the month he died. So every, like, anniversary of his death, like, it's just a hard day, even 10 years later, which is so crazy. But, yeah, no, in the moment when I. When I lost him, it was just. It was so bizarre. I talk about in the book, about how I called him, just being like, please, like, I hope it's just like a crazy nightmare I'm gonna wake up from. Like, please answer the phone. So just like, waiting for that phone to ring and go to, like, the dial town was just like. Like the most devastating thing. And then I called his dad right after. He was so calm and Just told me, like, he passed away. I don't want you to worry because you knew I was pregnant. Like, there'll be a funeral this weekend. Like, I'll send you the information. And like, he's just really chill, kind of trying to put out fires, I bet. Because I bet everyone's like reaching out to them. But no, it's the most devastating thing I've ever gone through my entire life. Like, I've never felt pain that way. Like, I've never felt like I. It was so painful that the pain was like, physical. Like, my chest hurt. Like, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, like.
- [52:08]
A
And you were pregnant.
- [52:10]
B
Yeah.
- [52:10]
A
And so everyone was really worried about you, I bet.
- [52:13]
B
Yeah, I know. My mom, bless her heart, because I was so annoyed with her. But she was like, she like, made me sleep in her room the night he died. Like, she made me shower in her room and she just like, sit there and like, watch me. I'm like, I feel like I'm being, like, observed. Like, I'm like an animal in a cage. But like, when I look back, I'm like, I would probably do the same thing. Like, she was worried. Like, I think like my mom, like, even though she didn't really want to admit it at the time, like, and it's really sad to say, but she definitely thought I was going to kill myself. So like, she was like on watch, like all the time. Like on that cruise I went on, I talked about in the book was probably the most depressed I felt because I'm on a cruise. My family, everyone's married and happy and I'm sleeping in my parents room, pregnant and single and lost my baby daddy. Like, I. It was devastating. I remember they played like, everyone's like, you know, you do the cruise, take off, everyone's all happy and dancing and just seeing everyone's happiness and feeling the way I did. I just started crying. Like, I just feel so miserable. Like, and I know I wouldn't actually jump off the cruise ship. I'm afraid of heights. But like, I wanted to, you know. Like, my mom knew that, so I. She wouldn't let me out of her sight. Like, even on that cruise, like, everywhere I went. And I think it was towards the end of the pregnancy when I was like, about to have the baby where things are getting a little bit better as far as, like, I'm like, okay. Like, that was the only thing I had to look forward to was like the baby. And so I think that's like, what really kept me going to Where I started feeling like, okay, like, a little bit better. Like, I can do this, you know, but still, I did car myself to sleep every single night my whole pregnancy. And once I had my son, like, a lot of my depression and stuff and feelings like, of sadness, like, they didn't subside, but, like, they got so much better that I was like, oh, my gosh, like, I feel so good. But as you can read in the book, like, it kind of comes in waves. And I'd feel like I got back to school and, like, lost friends and the depression would come back in, like, and then kind of go away and come back like, it. That's kind of how it was, honestly, for years.
- [53:59]
A
Tell me about, like, blaming yourself because you wrote about that a little bit. Since you did fight right before, how did you deal with that? And how did you. I hope. How did you stop blaming yourself since you fought kind of before?
- [54:15]
B
I mean, it took a while to stop blaming myself because I, in the immediate moment, I was like, it's my fault. Like, and I felt like that for, like, the first couple months. And there's so many, like, what ifs? Like, what if I didn't text him back? Like, what if this? Or what if I wasn't rude to him earlier? Like, when we fought? And, like, all these things that, like, were going through my mind constantly. Like, you just wish you could turn.
- [54:34]
A
The clock back because in your mind, you thought he went on this ride to, like, air, get some air.
- [54:42]
B
Yeah, he did. But do you know that for a fact? I did not know. No, I didn't know. So I didn't even know he was driving when he texted me. So, like, then I look back, I'm like, how would I have known? Like, I. I had no idea he was driving and texting me. I had no idea. She's like, I. Oh.
- [54:55]
A
But then you find out he was physically driving and texting. It wasn't right before. It was during.
- [55:01]
B
Yeah, no. Like, he died sending me a text. Like, that's what happened. Like, he hit into the car trying to send me a text. Or he hit into a truck that was carrying, like, loads of coal. And so he hit it. And because they hit so hard, isn't it's in a really dangerous canyon, by the way, to where, like, people die every year in that canyon. I guess that's dangerous. So regardless, it's like, like the dangerous canyon. He's texting me and driving, and then he hits head on into the semi truck carrying coal. And he wasn't wearing a seatbelt so he was ejected from the car, like, flew through the windshield. And, like, his body was actually pretty far from his car. I guess it just flew out. And so, yeah, like, even that, like, visual, like, I can still see it in my head when I talk to you about it. It's like, I can still picture watching the news report seeing, like, his body covered in a blue tarp with like, a. Like, these semicircle of pop cars around him. Because they didn't want people, like, around to see the body. No, it's just, like, devastating. Like, even talking about it now, it's like I still feel that, like, heaviness and, like, grief from, you know, going through that. And, like, I was obsessed with, like, watching the news reports. Like, I need to see. Like, I want to see everything. I want to know everything. Because it just didn't feel real. Like, it wasn't hitting me. Like, I, you know, it wasn't really real until I went to the funeral. And even then, like, talking about it, I'm like, I can't. I still can't even believe it happened, you know?
- [56:18]
A
Did you ever feel like anyone else was blaming you? Like, his family or friends or anyone asking you questions like. Or anything like that? Or was it just. No, just you being hard on yourself?
- [56:29]
B
It was just me being hard on myself. No one ever, like, blamed me in real life until I posted about it on social media. And then I had people blaming me. Like, random people who don't know me, being like.
- [56:40]
A
You wrote out, like, that you were fighting at that time.
- [56:44]
B
No, I didn't. I just said, like, how, like, my boyfriend died texting and driving. Like, I made TikToks about my story. And, like, I think I made one that, like, hit like, 50 million views about it. And I was like, it's like that one where it's like, you can't hurt me. Like, I went through this type thing. Oh, yeah, it was one of those. And it was like, my boyfriend died, like, while texting and driving, you know, and then I. Yeah, I had a lot of nasty comments on that one. Being like, you're the reason he's dead and like, blah, blah, like, like, but it doesn't phase me because I'm like, I know that, like, that's not true. Like, I didn't know he was driving. Like, I, you know, it's not my fault. But I mean, it still hurts. Like, there's still a lot of regret there, like, for the things that I said before he passed away and stuff.
- [57:22]
A
That, like, the last things you Said to him weren't positive.
- [57:26]
B
Kind. Yeah, like, they weren't positive. So, like, that's what hurts. Oh my God.
- [57:32]
A
Forgiven him so.
- [57:34]
B
Oh, for sure. Yeah. No, like, I feel like the only thing that I feel in my heart for him is like, love, you know, Like, I still feel like just the only things I really remember are the good moments, the happy moments and like, just like love. Because I think it's like I have my son running around, like there is part of him living in my house.
- [57:52]
A
You know, that is really beautiful. That is like, you know, because the same thing could have happened and in an alternate universe where you weren't pregnant and you know, he wouldn't have had a legacy and.
- [58:04]
B
Yeah, no, I know. Exactly. So, like, how could I feel anything but love when I have exactly a crazy little 10 year old running around? So now I. I only feel like happiness and joy, like when I talk about him and think about him. Like, I don't really think about any of the negative things, like, unless I get into the nitty gritty details. Obviously I wrote things in the book, but like, he honestly was an amazing person. And you think back and like everyone makes mistakes. Like he was 19. Like, I think when I look back, I remember like he was just a kid like you. And so yeah, it like makes sense and stuff. But no, I only have positive things to say and like. Yeah, so I feel good about it.
- [58:41]
A
Well, thank you for sharing that. And. And it's all in her book, told you so. And then flash forward. How many years do we meet you on Secret Lives? Oh my God, how many years later is that?
- [58:56]
B
So 2015 was when that was all happening. And then we filmed a pilot for Secret lives in 20. I think it was fall 2022, but the show came out fall 2024.
- [59:09]
A
So. Yeah, as shy you were saying before, girl, growing up, would you ever think you'd be on reality tv? Did you have any, like, yearning to be like, famous or known when you were younger?
- [59:21]
B
No, I mean, I think when I was like a little kid, like, I think every little kid's like, oh, I want to be famous one day. But like, I was never one of those kids who is like, you know, like when you watch old, like, home movies and it's like, oh, this kid was meant to be a star.
- [59:32]
A
Like, that was not singing or whatever.
- [59:34]
B
Yeah, no, that was not me because I was like, shy. Like, I was the youngest of the family too. So I feel like when I would do stuff like that, my siblings would like, laugh at me. So I get like super insecure and stuff. So I mean, it still comes out every once in a while. Like when I was filming the show, like doing interviews and stuff. And sometimes you have to do like, you know, pickup interviews or like, like, oh, can you repeat like what you said here? You know, I sometimes, even now, I'll sometimes get shy. I'll be like, oh, okay, like, did I do that? Okay, like, oh, it's like even like recording my audiobook. If I record something and like the. You have an audio producer in your ear listening and like, oh, like, can you do that again? Like, change the tone of it? I'm like, in my head I'm like, oh my gosh, like, did I sound stupid? Like, that's bad. Like, I'll get like a little shy still. Like, so I still have that in me. But I mean, overall, like, I have no problem, you know, like doing stuff on camera and whatnot. I think it helped too, cause in college I did broadcast journalism, so I had to go like, pack this like old fashioned camera around campus and like set it up and like film myself doing like news reporting because like, it's not as glamorous as it looks like. I had to go film myself and like, I didn't even know what I was doing. And people would be walking by on campus and like looking at you and so. And then when I first started doing that, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. And then like after, I'm like, oh, whatever, because you have people like coming in and waving. I'm like, hey, get out of my shot. Like, because you get to the point where you're like, you get used to it and you're like, hey, like, let me get my work done. Like, so I feel like that definitely helped with like camera stuff. And you know, like, I learned how to read a teleprompter pretty good and whatnot. So I think it definitely helped with like the career I have now.
- [61:02]
A
So how did it, how did the Mom Talk piece start for you? Were you doing your own videos and then you joined them?
- [61:09]
B
Yeah, so I was doing social media already. Like, I kind of told my story in the blog and that's kind of how I even started social media is because I wasn't trying to be an influencer. I was like, I just want to tell my story so I can feel like it's gonna be healing for me. But also I know it can help other people, especially like other Mormons who are like, I'm not perfect. Like, I'm not worthy. Because that's, like, that's how I felt. And I wanted to tell my story to help those people and just women in general who have been through, like, similar things. And so I started with a blog, and then I grew, like, my first 10k on Instagram and I was like, holy crap, 10k, this is wild. And then. Which really means nothing. But anyways, that's what I was doing. And I was, like, also working corporate at the time at an advertising agency, and I was doing videography on the side for money. Like, I was just doing a lot. Like, I was just hustling because.
- [61:50]
A
Which is so funny, the book. You, like, thought you weren't going to work a day in your life. You were.
- [61:55]
B
Exactly. And I'm over here, like, grinding like, 60 plus or more hours a week. And then, then TikTok started, right? Like, and I was doing IVF at the time, and I was just like, I don't know, like, sad. And I had this, like, video I was sitting on for a while that it was hilarious. It's basically of my son at the batting cage and my husband, and, like, they're doing, like, hitting balls with a te. And he hit the ball and he says, you bitch. I have no idea why he said it. Like, no idea. I think it's because he watched Impractical Jokers and they say that word a lot. So anyways, he does that. And then I was like, oh, I never post it because, like, I don't want people to mom shame me. But then I was bored and I was on Tick Tock and it was like, during, right before quarantine happened. And so I, like, posted it and I got like my first 60, 000 followers and all these accounts. Like, can we. Can we take this? Like, Barstool is picking it up and all these people. And I was like, oh, this is kind of crazy. And then I was like, well, maybe I should keep posting on Tick Tock because maybe it'll be like the new Instagram, you know? And so I just kept posting on it, like once a day or whatever during quarantine. And I think after a year, I grew like a million followers. It was like a year and a half. I hit a million. And then I was like, at like 1.2 million when I got invited to mom talk or whatever.
- [63:01]
A
Because I think, how do you get the invitation? Like, how does it come? Yeah, I'm like, picturing like, a trader's envelope. Like, you have been.
- [63:10]
B
No, I wish it was that cool, but, like, no, me and Taylor have been following each other on social media for, I think, over a year, a couple years, but at that point. And then I ended up going to a Christmas party where I met Taylor and, like, Miranda at this, like, house. And they're like, oh, you should come for next mom talk day. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like. But at first I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna go to that. Like, because they, like, make these, like, sexy, like, hot mom videos.
- [63:32]
A
I'm like, I'm not about the swinging at this point anything.
- [63:36]
B
This is all before. Yeah. So, like, I. You know, I've seen their videos and stuff, and they were like, kind of more like sexy, hot mom videos. And I was like, I'm just making, like, like, regular mom, you know, mom life videos. I don't think I'm, like, hot enough to, like, do their videos. And then I was like, you know what? Maybe I'll go, because I, like, want to make more mom friends. Especially, like, if they have kids similar ages. We're in the same career, and, like, I need to make more mom friends. And so I was like, okay, yeah, like, I'm down, like, and then collab, and it's great for your career. So I was like, cool. So I went to the first, like, mom talk day. I think it was, like, two months later. It was, like, January of 2022. And then that was, like, the first day where you see us doing the, like, come here, girl. Come to the back. Like, that's like that.
- [64:18]
A
How many girls were there on that first day?
- [64:21]
B
It was me, Miranda, Taylor, Whitney. They say Layla. There's, like, six of us. There was, like, six.
- [64:30]
A
I thought it'd start out more okay. And who did you. Did you know anybody before, Like, Taylor, or was she the kind of first person you know?
- [64:39]
B
Yeah. I only knew Taylor from social media. Then I met Miranda, so I just knew them. And then I was friends with Michaela on social media for, like, two years by then. So then I invited her to come. I was like, hey, why don't you come with me to this? Because I don't have someone I really know well. And so then she came. The group just kept getting, like, bigger and bigger.
- [64:57]
A
And then brought Whitney.
- [64:58]
B
I think Taylor or someone invited her actually in, like, and then she brought Layla with her. I think that's how it works. Worked.
- [65:05]
A
What's going on with you and Whitney now? Because I feel like in the last season, you guys had, like, I was kind of rooting for your friendship to. Because I liked how you Were able to navigate the different friendships, you know, and kind of be like, I don't have to choose. I can be friends with Michaela and friends with Winnie. But by the end, you weren't really able to do that. I feel like when you tried to meet them up, you were in her ear. It got a little. There were a little bit, I'll be honest with you, like, mean girl vibes in that moment. Not from you, from the situation of, like, her not knowing her, like, doing the alert she wants to get out of there and saying your code word, which felt like out of character for you to be kind of not so neutral in that moment. So what was that like?
- [65:51]
B
I think, like, for me, it was like I would kind of go back and forth where, like, just look at that situation with what happened. I think I have to give context to the backstory of it all because, you know, the she didn't come to my baby mama event, which, like, to me, like, people don't see, like, it wasn't about her not coming to the event. Like, that was just kind of like the tipping point for me. It was, like, everything leading up to it because I was always in the middle of her kind of trying to defend her constantly, like, off camera. I'm like, texting on, hey, how are you doing? Like, sending her cookies to her house, like, just trying to be a great friend. And then it's like, the one time I need support, like, you're not there. And, like, like, also to give more context, because I don't know if you remember, if you heard about, like, how she posted her text online, like. Like, after. I think it was right after the show came out, being like, I did text her about her event. So, like, so that's kind of, like, kind of where all this problem comes from is that, like, I text her being like, you did not just unfollow everybody. Because, you know, you had that scene in the show where, like, everyone's like, she unfollowed us. And, like, I was, like, so caught off guard in that moment. I was like, she didn't. Like, I looked. I was like, you did not unfollow everyone. But I wasn't, like, being rude. I was just, like, I was, like, shocked, you know, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, like. And then she was like, I think mad at the way I texted her that. And she was like, I need a boundaries, blah, blah. I don't know the exact words, but long story short, she was kind of pissed in that moment, like, almost at me. Too. And then I don't think I respond to her last message and because I was sitting there filming and I didn't want to be like, oh, Whitney's text me saying this and expose like what she's saying to everyone because I wouldn't do that. And then she text me again, like I want to say 20 minutes after that, after she's already heated saying like, hey, and by the way, I'm not coming to your event. Like I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah. So in my head I was like, oh, she's heated in this moment. So she's like saying this because she's upset and she'll probably try to come, you know. And like she was already kind of mad at me. So I was like, I'm not, I didn't want to expose that text online on the show either, being like, oh, she just text me saying she's not coming to my event because I didn't want to do that. You know, I was like trying to almost protect her in that moment. So her later on exposing the text and being like, see, I did text her and she's not showing that. It was multiple days before the event. It wasn't the night of the event. Which I'm like, like that's when I needed support. And I also left it open ended for her because I was like, I don't want to guilt trip her into coming to support me. Like I don't want to ever ask my friends to support me. I hope they would do that naturally. Especially because I try to be a good friend. I try to support all my friends. So that was one thing and why I didn't respond back to her. And then also because I was like, I think she's just angry right now and like needs to cool down. Like she used to do this a lot where she kind of make rash decisions in the moment, but I'm not doing that this. And then she would do it right. Like before the show even was a thing. She's like, I'm not doing the show, I am doing the show. I'm not doing the show. I am doing the show. So she kind of goes back and forth. So I was like, I'm just gonna leave this here.
- [68:32]
A
Yeah.
- [68:32]
B
And then like I. So I assumed she would come and she didn't for a long explanation which like obviously hurt because I was like, I've done a lot, you know, to try to be your friend. And then filming raps and I still was reaching out to her. I feel like I'm trying To be there for her and stuff. And it wasn't really reciprocated that, like, pretty much at all. And I was just like, okay, like, whatever. And then the show's about to come out, and she started getting, like, more chummy with me again. And we were trying to, like, become friends and navigate it and, like, work through it. And, like, I think we had conversations being like, okay, this is, like, how I felt in that moment. And, like, we were kind of just trying to hash it out, right? And then out of nowhere, she just, like, post my text online between her, between us, to try to make me look bad, though. Like, there was no context, There was no dates shown, that it was multiple days before almost to make me look like I'm a liar, which is not the case. And so I feel like because of that, I was, like, really frustrated. But we still tried to, like, work through that. But that's when Michaela started, like, very much disliking Whitney, because Michaela and I are, like, best friends too.
- [69:27]
A
She was protective of you.
- [69:29]
B
It was protective. So her resentment, I think a lot of it comes from that, you know, and so. So that, like, it's like a protective mechanism. And throughout season two, which you see, like, they cut a lot of the conversations out of season two that we had. But it was like, like, the reason why I started feeling resentment towards her again. Like, I got over it. I was like, I'll navigate these two friendships. But I start. I started to feel that resentment again because I felt like she kept bringing up the past but justifying it.
- [69:57]
A
And I was like, wait, like, I remember that. Yeah, she didn't regret it. She couldn't say. I asked her. She was on my pod. And I remember telling her, like, you couldn't say I regretted it? Like, she got so stuck on the, like, yeah, literal meaning of girl.
- [70:12]
B
Yeah, of the regret.
- [70:14]
A
Instead of saying like, like, I should have been there. She was like, I can't regret it because I didn't do it. Like, she just wouldn't give it to you.
- [70:20]
B
No. And even then, we had conversations off camera where she's like, let me look up the definition of regret. And then she was like. And she was like, oh, I guess I do. So in that moment on the. You know, I know. So on the truth box in Arizona, I wrote that question. Cause I was like, this will make her look great. Like, this will kind of justify, like, everyone will be happy. Because I think people did still feel those feelings, like, when you can't, like, take ownership for this. Right? And So I wrote the question, like, do you regret not coming to me for the bench? I thought she was gonna say yes, and then she said no again. And I was like, whoa. Like, what is happening? Like, I was so caught off guard. Cause I was, like, doing this to help her in a way. You know, I was like, and I'll be Kumbaya. Everyone be friends and, like, blah, blah, blah. And, like, so that kind of, like, sucked again. Cause, like, now I feel like we're backtracking again. And we had other conversations in this season, like, in New Orleans that were cut, where she basically was like, well, did me. And so. And so post these texts online, but when I do it, it's bad. And I'm like, like. Because they were fighting you. You weren't fighting when you did that. Like, I think we had a lot of moments where I felt like she was justifying, like, what she did, like, to me. And I was like, wait, you just gotta say sorry and, like, we can move on. Like, why don't you bring me it up? Like, so I feel like I started harboring resentment again for Whitney, and it kind of carried through season three. And, like, I just felt this. So, yeah.
- [71:31]
A
Where are you now?
- [71:32]
B
Yeah. So, like, long story short, I'm like, that was a long explanation. I just, like, I had to get context. I don't think I've ever actually explained this on a podcast before, but actually, like, I still feel like over time, Whitney has made a lot of improvements, and I feel like she. I want to say, like, I feel like the old Whitney is coming back that I, like, love. But, like, I do feel like she has made a lot of improvements and, like, self reflection and, like, has been a little more selfless. And honestly, like, I feel like me and Whitney are good. Like, I genuinely like her. Like, I don't know what else to say about it.
- [72:03]
A
Like, I. I was reporting on Dancing with the Stars.
- [72:07]
B
I was just gonna say that.
- [72:08]
A
Yeah, you have to check text for one. One. One of the girls. Who are you texting for?
- [72:13]
B
Oh, my gosh. Both. I'm sorry. Like, call me a fence writer all you want. Like, I will not be picking sides. Like, obviously, like, people want us to. And I bet on the show they're gonna want us to. Right? And people will. But I genuinely, like, am. So are you voting, though?
- [72:28]
A
For real? Are you texting? Are you voting?
- [72:31]
B
Yeah.
- [72:31]
A
You are?
- [72:33]
B
Because you can get 10 per. You get 20 total. I think it's like, 10 per person.
- [72:37]
A
So you're doing it. You're literally you're doing it.
- [72:39]
B
Okay. Yeah. 10 and 10.
- [72:41]
A
Do you think the rest.
- [72:42]
B
Like, unless someone pisses me off, then I'm just kidding. But, yeah, no, I. Yeah, no, they are. I'm pretty sure. I mean, I haven't asked, but I'm assuming they all are. But, like, as far as right now, like, I love Whitney. I am so excited for her on Dancing with the Stars. Like, I genuinely feel like. And she's, like, radiating light, like, right now. Like, I just feel like she feels so much happier. Like. Like, almost like stepping into her authentic self. And just, like, I think she has, like, progressed a lot. And so I have, like, nothing but, like, you know, love. Like, the past. The past. I did. Like, I had to explain it because.
- [73:12]
A
I wanted to just, like, say, what if everything's Kumbaya? What are we gonna see in this new season?
- [73:18]
B
Or buckle up. It's crazy. I, like, can't give too much away, but, like, something.
- [73:25]
A
Give a little tease. Give a little tease.
- [73:27]
B
I will say, like, sometimes we go into filming where I was like, what are we even gonna film? Like, nothing crazy is happening. I'm not kidding. I was. Day one or day two, I walk in and it was like, a shitstorm. And I was like, what is happening? Like, it was. It's just. It's a little bit messy. But, like, I feel like this season is probably my favorite because I did get to see it ahead of time. And the one thing I did love about this season is because a lot of times everyone like, oh, they're mean girls, and, like, they, like, they're not real friends and blah, blah. And I think it's too, because, like, sometimes the fun stuff gets edited out, right? Because there's so much drama going on. And I do feel like this season they kept some of that fun, like, light feeling in it, at least in the first half. I felt that a lot of the. This is fun because it's, like, showing, like, little things on our personality. It's showing some humor. It's showing, like, some of the bloopers that, like, normally don't make it in, right? Because they polish things. Like the interviews, right? Like, like, little bloopers in the interviews of, like, you saying side comments that, like, make it in. So I thought that was really fun. And honestly, I do think this season is so far, like, my favorite, I would say.
- [74:25]
A
Okay, so excited. Wish you could give us, like, a little storyline. Some. Some to grab onto. I know. We'll have to wait. We'll have to wait. I don't want to get your BFF TFP becoming the new bachelor.
- [74:40]
B
Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I am so excited, like, for multiple reasons. Because I'm like, this will finally be like the split of her and baby daddy. Because we all know that's been a mess.
- [74:49]
A
But you think that this will, like, mark the end of it for real?
- [74:52]
B
I'm praying for it.
- [74:53]
A
You hate him. You're his biggest hater. No.
- [74:57]
B
So I would say yes. I was like, I don't hate. I don't hate him. I just, like, dislike him with Taylor. Like, if he's gonna do his own thing, like, I. And I said this to him. I was like, I genuinely, like, wish you the best. I don't think you're a bad person, but you are with Taylor. And I think that, like, something between the two of you is just messed up and, like, it's never gonna work. So, like, please, for the love of God, like, just move on. And she needs you too. And, like, so you can both be happy and you can, like, co parent, like, amicably. Like, that's all I want for you guys. Like, I don't hate him by any means. I just very much dislike him with Taylor.
- [75:30]
A
So what kind of guy do you want Taylor to find on the Bachelor? Who would be your dream guy for her?
- [75:35]
B
I think someone's like, based on Taylor and I know, like, that she likes it like someone very down to earth, obviously. Someone who's really good kids, loves kids, wants to be a dad. She likes guys who can, like, get their hands dirty. I will say so. She kind of likes. She always like cowboys, but I don't think she wants like a real, real cowboy. But I mean, I would just love someone who's a little more calm, someone who can handle, like, chaos. And I just kind of like. I don't say calm her down, but like someone who's more chill, who can like, balance. Balance everything out. And they're just like supportive of her, you know, because I don't think she's had that in the past with, you.
- [76:10]
A
Know, does she mind a non Mormon?
- [76:13]
B
Oh, no, she. I don't think she cares at all.
- [76:15]
A
She doesn't care. So this will be like a pool of guys.
- [76:18]
B
Yeah, as far as I know. I don't think she cares about if they're Mormon or not. I think that she wants them to, like, be Christian or something, like. Or like have a belief in God and stuff, but I don't think she cares that they're Mormon.
- [76:30]
A
Do you think you will be going on the show and, like, giving her advice in an earpiece.
- [76:35]
B
I mean, I hope so. I feel like I'd be really good at that. Like, I feel like I'm really good at, like, sticking out the red flags now for my past. And so, like, I think you do need me to help you out. Like, I would love to think it'd be fun, but we'll see what happens. I don't know. So let me.
- [76:50]
A
This is our official pitch. Okay, Hulu? And I'm like, Macy, thank you so much for coming on. You're a jam. Yes.
- [76:56]
B
Thank you, guys.
- [76:57]
A
Macy's book, I told you so. It's so good. You will learn so much more about who you are and hopefully we'll also get more of you and all those other sides that you've been wanting to show.
- [77:09]
B
Yes. Thank you so much. It's been so fun.
- [77:12]
A
Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Knott's Kenny but Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not skinny, but not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcasts and write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday.
- [77:41]
B
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.