Penn Badgley: Seriously Unserious

Summary

Podcast Summary: Not Skinny But Not Fat

Episode: Penn Badgley: Seriously Unserious
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Amanda Hirsch
Guest: Penn Badgley

---

Overview

In this laid-back and candid episode, Amanda Hirsch sits down with actor Penn Badgley (of "Gossip Girl" and "You" fame), diving deep into his current life as a father of four (including newborn twins), his complex relationship with fame and authenticity, his strong opinions on astrology, the unlikely story behind his name, his unconventional educational path, and his evolving career—including his hit podcast and new book "Crushmore." The conversation flows effortlessly between pop culture nostalgia, personal revelations, and Penn’s signature blend of seriousness and unseriousness.

---

Key Discussion Points

1. Penn’s Online Presence & Content Creation ([04:13]–[07:00])

• Balance of Online Life: Penn discusses how, despite seeming very online lately, he typically keeps a healthy ratio between his time spent online and his content output.
  • “If I say so myself, I think my ratio of like, time spent online versus how much I post versus, you know, impact... Pretty great." (Penn, [04:44])
• Content Support Team: Credit to co-hosts Nava and Sophie (from his podcast "Podcrushed") for keeping him in the loop on trends, and a shout-out to the millennial/Gen Z ‘cuspy’ divide.
• The ‘Unserious’ Label: Penn reflects on how the traits that once marked him as too serious ("media trained") are now perceived as ‘unserious’ in today's culture.
  • “The funny thing is I think what seemed serious 20 years ago... has become unserious... I’ve always given authentic answers... I’ve always criticized the roles I’ve been a part of.” (Penn, [05:40])

2. Story Behind Penn’s Name ([07:29]–[09:01])

• Origin Tale: Amanda teases Penn about his “hot name”—he shares an anecdote:
  • "My dad played tennis and was gripping a pen. Tennis ball. And my mom said, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball right now. And... it is the only thing they've ever agreed on." (Penn, [08:09])
• Growing Into the Name: Although unique, Penn embraced his name’s individuality by age 15.

3. Life as a Dad: Twins & Family ([09:18]–[18:39])

• Newborn Twins: Penn recently welcomed identical twin boys (making four kids in all), describing the challenges and realities of having twins and balancing parenting with outside help (like a night nurse).
  • “The more kids we have, the more we understand. It's like we really want to be doing all of the parenting things.” (Penn, [09:46])
• Random/Spontaneous Twins: The twins were not a result of IVF, and Penn explains the rarity of spontaneous, identical twins ([11:33]).
• Stepson & Blended Family: Penn reflects on raising his stepson (now 17), and how parental cringe is universal.
  • “Any real parent figure is always gonna be cringe to some degree.” (Penn, [13:20])
• Reflections on Parenting: Insightful discussion about how every additional child changes parenting style, and reflections on the impact of the pandemic-era newborn experience.
• Pressure to “try for a girl”: Both joke about the expectation and probability of yet more boys if they tried again, with Penn highlighting the exhaustion and impracticality ([17:12]–[18:39]).

4. Thoughts on Childcare & Parental Leave ([19:04]–[21:25])

• Challenges Sourcing Support: Finding good childcare is both difficult and emotionally complex.
• Social Commentary: Penn notes the challenges in America’s system for supporting families:
  • “If we lived in a… social system that really supported everybody… everybody wants to raise their kids. Yeah, everybody does.” (Penn, [21:11])

5. Birthday Talk & Age ([26:25]–[27:22])

• Turning 39: Penn is about to turn 39 and laughs at the lack of fanfare or care about birthdays now that he’s deep into parenthood.
• “Zaddy era": Amanda coins Penn’s entry into the “Zaddy era”—something confirmed by Internet fans during "You"’s final seasons.

6. Astrology Deep-Dive ([27:22]–[31:14])

• Strong Critique: Penn details his skepticism of astrology, citing its inconsistencies and reductive system.
  • “There’s no kind of rhyme or reason to it... It's reductive because... astrology has become the new secular religion.” (Penn, [27:24]–[28:43])
• Science vs. Pop Belief: Emphasizes the lack of scientific backing, even as he admires self-reflection in any system.
• Notable Quote: “To be penetrating is a human quality. That's not astrology.” (Penn, [30:19])
• **Amanda teases Penn’s “Scorpio energy” throughout, playing into and ironically contradicting his points.

7. Growing Up (Quick Biography) ([31:21]–[36:46])

• Childhood Struggles & Acting: Shares early isolation and depression, and how his mom encouraged performing arts to help him ([31:46]–[33:12]).
• Moving to LA: The family’s move to LA was both to escape a toxic parental divorce and to let Penn pursue acting.
• School (& Lack Thereof): Penn never completed middle school and spent one month in high school, believing this let him retain his true love of learning.
  • “I never learned… to hate learning. I always love to learn because I never got, I think, that very institutionalized thing.” (Penn, [35:35])
• Discussing Kids’ Education: Penn and wife even tried moving for stepson’s high school but landed back in NYC, where the stepson now thrives ([35:52]–[36:46]).

8. Gossip Girl—The Backstory ([36:47]–[54:19])

• Reluctance to Take the Role: Penn didn’t want to play Dan Humphrey, feeling he’d already played similar roles and wanted to pursue music/other work ([37:37]–[42:44]).
  • “My response was essentially like, thank you so much… but I’m not really interested.” (Penn, [41:53])
• Gossip Girl’s Impact on Career: Manager and agent urged him to reconsider, suggesting it could be career-changing ([48:16]–[49:09]).
• TV Show Realities & Critique: Explains the challenges of being on a long-running ensemble drama—emotionally draining, repetitive storylines, potential for bad acting habits.
  • “It’s harder to get on a show and then get off a show like that... Once you’ve done one kind of conflict and resolution, you have to do another.” (Penn, [49:09]–[50:39])
• Favorite Guest Stars: Fondly recalls working with Hilary Duff (season-long arc) and Lady Gaga (before she was famous).
  • “I just remember meeting her... And I was like, what is this song?” (Penn, [53:15])
• Value of Filming in New York: One main draw for doing the show was living in NYC ([53:44]–[53:47]).
• Gossip Girl Rewatch? Would consider a rewatch podcast “if I haven’t worked in a few years and I am paying that... mortgage.” (Penn, [54:09])

9. About “You” and Comparing Joe vs Dan ([54:30]–[56:57])

• Ending the Role of Joe: Expresses satisfaction that “You” ended at the right time, before the story “jumped the shark.”
  • “That character has to come to an end... because it deals with such themes, if you really examine them, are... important.” (Penn, [54:40])
• Joe vs. Dan Showdown: When Amanda asks who would win in a fight—Joe or Dan:
  • “Dan would win in a fight, but then Joe would kill him... in a real spineless way.” (Penn, [56:45])

10. Podcasting & New Book “Crushmore” ([57:03]–[61:49])

• Origin of "Podcrushed": Started during the pandemic, with the central question for guests: “Who were you at 12 years old?” ([58:15])
• About the Book: "Crushmore" is a collection of personal essays—blending memoir, pop-culture, and self-reflection.
  • The first essay traces his lifelong love of dance and music as a “North Star” for creativity and play.
• Relationship with Fame & the Camera: Discusses a “crazy sex scene” filmed alone ("partner is the camera"), and how the very idea of the camera has changed society.
  • “Think about what Gossip Girl... that is an out of touch sentiment now... Now people out themselves.” (Penn, [61:49])

11. Closing Reflections ([62:59]–[63:15])

• Fatherhood: Amanda marvels at how “Dan Humphrey would become a father of 17”—Penn’s wit in response leaves the episode on a humorous, irreverent note.
• Promos: Quick plugs for “Crushmore,” Podcrushed, and lots of genuine thanks.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On authenticity in the spotlight:
  “I’ve always given authentic answers. I’ve always criticized the roles I’ve been a part of... In some ways it can be a shadow trait because you can be too cynical...”
  — Penn Badgley, [05:43]

• On astrology:
  “Astrology has become the new secular religion... It's reductive... by the way, just like, you know, everybody kind of rolls. The rise of religion. First of all, astrology has become the new secular religion. Everybody's just like, you're a what?”
  — Penn Badgley, [28:15]

• On parenting and guilt:
  “The only times that I would get upset was when I, like, imagined that I should be doing a better job than I am. And that's just like this harsh, critical, inner parent...”
  — Penn Badgley, [16:51]

• On the future:
  “If I haven't worked in a few years and I am paying that, by the way, mortgage... I have fallbacks. I don't. Nobody wants to fall back. But I do have some fall back.”
  — Penn Badgley, [54:09–54:21]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Penn’s approach to being online: [04:13]–[07:00]
• The story behind his name: [07:29]–[09:01]
• Twins and parenting insights: [09:18]–[18:39]
• Astrology skepticism: [27:22]–[31:14]
• Early life, acting, and education: [31:21]–[36:46]
• How Gossip Girl happened (and almost didn’t): [36:47]–[49:09]
• Repetitive cycles of ensemble TV shows: [49:09]–[51:19]
• Gossip Girl guest stars & NYC draw: [53:32]–[53:52]
• Rewatch pod? [54:00]–[54:21]
• Joe vs Dan fight hypothetical: [55:20]–[56:57]
• Origin of Podcrushed, and the book: [57:03]–[61:49]
• Media, cameras, and self-exposure: [61:49]–[62:45]

---

Overall Tone & Vibe

The episode is lively, irreverent, and smart. Amanda’s fangirl joy is persistent but she keeps things funny and real, while Penn brings a thoughtful, brutally honest, sometimes philosophical lens to all topics—never shying away from depth, even when it’s unserious.

---

For those who missed the episode:
Expect a deep but unserious hang with Penn Badgley, who doesn’t just revisit TV nostalgia but also offers candid wisdom on parenting, pop culture, fame, and why he genuinely hates astrology. His ability to blend sincerity with self-aware humor is ever-present, and the conversation delivers gems for longtime fans and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[A]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome back to the Not Skinny But Not Fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast, where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hi, guys. Happy Tuesday day. Welcome to a new episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. I'm your host, Amanda H. What's up? Booze. Boo. Boos. Remember we say that like my boo, but like, boo. And then it was like, my bow. My. Before anyone else. No, that was me. Okay? There was my boo. Like my boo. My boo. Okay? Then there was like, my bow, like B, E, A, U. Okay, That I might be making that one up. And then there was my BAE before anyone else, which I love. Little pass. Little P. I'm used to feeling dumb sometimes, but I felt really dumb next to today's guest who, like, is a genius or something, who literally barely finished middle school. That's why I asked a few weeks ago. I was like, is school a sham? Because, like, we went, we paid, we studied, and here I am, you know, being a dumb. And our guest today, smart as can be. Maybe they read more books. Maybe that's what it is. But maybe they need read, like, the. The smart, smart books. Anyway, today's guest. You guys, maybe you're guessing, maybe you're not. Maybe you saw the title of the episode and you already know who it is. And then I do this build up where it's like, Amanda, we read. It says Penn Badgley on, not schema, not fat. So pen batch on today. Oh, my God, how fun. I'm literally doing the hair thing that, like, basic do. Like, combing through the bottom of my hair like, Alexis, like, David L. Like, I'm doing that. So Pen Badgery is here, like, fangirling af like high school. Amanda could never Would never think this would happen. Like, I love to mention to him, like, I watch Gossip Girl in real time. Like, I tuned in to the cw. Like that means something. Okay? Like, I lived the Chuck and Bl. Like, say those three words that he couldn't say. Couldn't say, I love you. What the Chuck And I always knew. I always knew Chuck was British IRL because his American accent was so bad. But I don't think I was, like, looking it up on Google. Like, is Chuck Bass in real life British? But I knew. I knew because he's like that. And Serena's like, I should go. I should Go. Which, like, a lot of people are saying, like, like, people will note that she said I have to go a lot. But no, no, it's I should go. And the should is shortened to a she, so it's spelled I apostrophe S H, apostrophe geo. I should go. Yep. Look it up. Anyway, Penn Badgley is here. Huge fan. I mean, he was Dan Humphrey in Gossip Girl. He was Joe in you. He also hosts a podcast called Podcast, which is super popular. And he had come out with a book super recently called Crushmore, which is a personal essays. Kind of like the same vibe as his podcast. He also has two new baby twin boys in total. He has four boys. We discussed that. Obviously, he's deep, He's a kook, he's fun, he's charming, and he is super against astrology. He is Pen Badgley, which I also obviously had to tell him that his name is super hot. Like, Pen. What up? So it's Pen, you guys. Pen is on. Okay, bye. Enjoy this episode. Penn Badgley is here, everybody. Let's fudgeing. Take it in. Yeah, let's soak it in.

[B]

Take it in.

[A]

You know what I'm thinking, though? Because we're talking about reachability and the electronics of it all. And, like, when I look at you, I would see a guy that's like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

However, you've leaned into the content creation lately.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You're content king. I might.

[B]

Well, the last two weeks, I have been as online as people believe me to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But usually I. I mean, if I say so myself, I think my ratio of, like, time spent online versus how much I post versus, you know, impact.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pretty great.

[A]

Oh, so you're. Oh, I know.

[B]

I do not spend a lot of time online. What I have is I have two co hosts who. And a business partner, particularly in Nava, because we have a production company. So my two co hosts, Nava and Sophie from my podcast, and now my co authors. But Nava and I are in touch kind of like, all the time about other projects we're working on, so. But between Nava and Sophie, they'll alert me to maybe a certain trend. They're a huge part.

[A]

Oh, they get. They're like Gen Z vibes.

[B]

I mean. No. Because we're squarely millennial, so he's a bit. Sophie's younger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nava and I are Squarely millennial. Sophie's 31. She's cuspy.

[A]

Okay. That is.

[B]

She's cuspy. I have, like, some sort of gen Z spirit and maybe my, my, my. Like my ability to recognize how chaos is the most useful tool. You know, like just unseriousness and all that.

[A]

Are people calling you unserious?

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

Oh, it's like a thing now.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I'm not. I mean, the funny thing is I think what seemed serious 20 years ago, which was being I think essentially as I am now, has become unserious. And I think what I mean is I've never been super enthused in the sort of the more media trained fashion. Like I've never given in interviews what you're typically expected to give. I've always given authentic answers. I've always criticized the roles I've been a part of. You know what I mean? The project I've been a part of. In some ways it can be a shadow trait because you can be too cynical and too critical of. Of the things that you do and what you're a part of at the same time when you're part of such giant pop projects. You know, we shouldn't just. In terms of pop culture, I don't think we should just like lazily acquiesce to what it offers us. And so that's. So that. So I think that's what I do a little bit. I just.

[A]

You're really serious.

[B]

It's serious.

[A]

So that's what I'm saying.

[B]

You know, it's like, it's like I'm.

[A]

That's such a serious answer.

[B]

Such a serious answer. But you know what I mean? It's like I've been consistently. Yeah, I mean, I think I've been consistent. Maybe. Maybe I'm horribly wrong, but I think I've been consistent. And 20 years ago it was like, man, would you shut up? And 20 years later it's like they're into it. Okay, we like it. That's at least. That's my read on.

[A]

Well, you know who else is. Is kind of famously does that I feel like. Is Dakota Johnson, particularly with like Madame Web. Any chance she gets. Yeah, yeah, like any.

[B]

You've got to. With me.

[A]

Yeah, like any chance you get to be Madame Web. Yes, I do. I have a pronunciation issue.

[B]

Madame. No, it's Madame.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

Because in France.

[A]

Thank you. You guys.

[B]

It would be Madame, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Monsieur Madame. Well, I guess technically. And you were pronouncing correctly.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unserious Pen. First of all, I love that name. I was thinking about it today, the.

[B]

Whole thing on Serious Pen or just Pen.

[A]

On Serious pen is your next handle when you like, open a new tick tock. Just not enough. But Pen. Such a hot name.

[B]

Thank you. Hot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's the first. What? Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that it's not like I've not been called hot before, but not an account of my name. That's for. I mean, my name. My name sounds. It's brief. It's.

[A]

It is brief. I was like. Is it short for like.

[B]

No.

[A]

Panifer?

[B]

No, no, it's not. It's. No, it's a. My dad played tennis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And was gripping a pen. Tennis ball. And my mom said, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball right now. And. And as they have both quipped, it is the only thing they've ever agreed on.

[A]

And they named you Penn just in that moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Tennis ball.

[A]

Did you.

[B]

Unserious.

[A]

Are you being unserious or serious?

[B]

No, no, that's serious. But it's an unserious name.

[A]

It's so unserious.

[B]

But it sounds serious, right?

[A]

It sounds like it's after a philosopher, like from the 18. Yeah. Did you ever have like, issues with your. Did you ever have people like.

[B]

I mean, when I was young. Yeah. But I mean, I think by the time I was 15, I. I liked its uniqueness. And in the years before that, sure, it was. I was maybe made fun of a bit. But that's. That compared to the, you know, if I think of like constitutional insecurities that I grew up with. Not the name, the name wasn't really one.

[A]

Right. Because it's like, what hurts you? Like, for me it was like, call me ugly, call me fat, then, like, my feelings would be hurt.

[B]

So what's the deal with the name of this thing?

[A]

See?

[B]

Is that the deal part of that?

[A]

I guess. Yeah, I know. Were you like, where am I going?

[B]

So it's like not serious, not unserious.

[A]

You had twins last month. Yeah. Scary for me because I have two boys.

[B]

Oh, you do? Okay.

[A]

And you had two boys before these two boys?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, oh, no.

[B]

Yeah. Doubled the boys.

[A]

That's insanity.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

Tell me how it's a month in, right? Or a month and a half?

[B]

I think we're coming up on eight weeks this Monday.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In a few days.

[A]

How are you feeling? Are you sleeping? Are you.

[B]

We have a night nurse half the time.

[A]

Okay. That's nice.

[B]

So that. That's merciful. It's also its own rhythm. You know, I think you find we're hands on parents. And when you hire Any help. You know, the kind of support that somebody like a night nurse wants to be is like they want to do their job. They want to be integral, and they are, and they should be. But we kind of. The more kids we have, the more we understand. It's like we really want to be doing all of the parenting things. And then it's the other stuff that we need help with, you know, so. And it's hard to find that person. It's far. It's. It. Whenever you're hiring, like, critical support within your family, particularly childcare, like that word childcare. You have children, you know, it's like we say childcare like it's an easy understood thing. Child care are the. Is the place and the people who are raising your children when you are not. It's a big old and it's not easy to find. It's never cheap. And if it is, you have other things to worry about, you know, so being here is a strange wavelength compared to the wavelength I'm on, you know, the other 23 hours.

[A]

Twins is also like, when you have one, it's like, he's sleeping. I can chill or eat it, you.

[B]

Know, but now it's like, no, it's two is. I have a few friends with twins. First of all, I can't believe they didn't really say when they were going through it. Like, this is insane. Compared to one. It's like one. You know, you're like, that's easy. God bless everybody raising children because it's never easy. One is like 01. I'm like, whenever I'm handling them both well, I'm just like, oh, my God, if there was one less, I mean, I don't want one less because I love them, obviously. But I'm like marveling at the fact.

[A]

That no twins is crazy. There's no other ways. No other way. And was it. Can I ask if it. Was it a random twin?

[B]

Yeah, in the sense that it, like it wasn't IVF or it wasn't. Like, it wasn't the kind of deal where you're like, twins are a high ability. Yeah.

[A]

Like all of a sudden they were like two heartbeats.

[B]

Spontaneous.

[A]

Spontaneous. They call it an identical.

[B]

Identical, which is also the. The more rare kind. Which is. Which is the most spontaneous because from what I understand, fraternal is genetic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Run in a family. This is not that kind.

[A]

So do they actually look identical?

[B]

Well, in the. In the very beginning, it was very easy to tell them apart. And it's still for us, easy. But the bigger they get, the more they grow. It's. They're becoming more and more identical.

[A]

And you haven't shared, like, their names or anything?

[B]

No, their names are. Are a sound bite. I'm not going to share them yet. In years to come, I'm sure I will.

[A]

Yeah, but it's a choice. What do you mean they're a sound bite?

[B]

Their names. Not to be that now I'm like, drawing attention to it. Their names are.

[A]

We're gonna be surprised.

[B]

Their names are.

[A]

It's not Mike and Ben. No, no, not. Yeah. And you have a five year old, right? Because I saw that he was born in August 2020. My son was born in August 2020. What date? What day? 10th, 5th for me.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, cool.

[A]

So like, Covid babies as yo.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Different time too, right? Because then we were at home, like, weren't leaving. So you had more time.

[B]

Yeah, in a way. It was kind of. Well, also not twins, so I have four.

[A]

Not twins.

[B]

I have four children, but one of them is. Is my stepson, and I met him when he was five. He's now the age of my. My firstborn son. So I never knew zero to five. And that's an extremely formative time.

[A]

Your stepson is how old now?

[B]

My stepson is now. He's almost 17. Oh, whoa. Yeah.

[A]

Is. Does he. Are you cringe to him? Are you cool?

[B]

Any. Any real parent figure is always gonna be cringe to some degree. Yeah, I mean, definitely. But I think there is also this. I mean, I am who I am, and I am not the most uncool step parent you can have.

[A]

You are right.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? So.

[A]

But does he get it? Like, is he. Does he get it? Has he watched Gossip Girl? You. Has he watched anything I watched?

[B]

I think. I think a few years back, we watched some. No, you know what it is? He and his mom, my wife, they. They. I think while I was like, on a trip, they watched the first episode of Gossip Girl, the first probably 20 minutes. And then I think he was like. He was young enough that it wasn't inappropriate, but that he was uninterested.

[A]

He was just uninterested.

[B]

He was just kind of like, okay, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think maybe he's definitely getting to the age where, I mean, I still think 16, 17 is young to be watching you, because. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The themes that it's dealing with, even with its camp and humor and unseriousness, to really, I think, grasp it and not be somehow internalizing the. The thing it's sat to rising.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think you have to be older. I think you have to be like in your 20s, personally, you know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But anyway, anyway. He hasn't really seen a lot of the stuff I've done, but he sees my. He sees my. My TikTok your content.

[A]

No, I'm sorry. I'm telling you. Do we have a tiktoker? So in terms of the kids, what have you learned from having. I mean, you were dad to a stepson and also the five year old. What has really helped you prepare for the twins? Like what?

[B]

Prepare? Yeah. You know, I think what I knew going into it was that I couldn't be prepared. There was nothing. I mean, I don't know what your feeling is on parenthood, but like I don't think anything really prepares you. I think you're ready to be in it or you're not. And then if you're in it, you're in it anyway and suddenly you're ready. You know what I mean? It's a strange thing where you can't really like you gotta.

[A]

They give you the baby and you go home. Like it's on you. Yeah.

[B]

It's not like you suddenly. Yeah.

[A]

Do you feel. With the. The thing that I felt because usually when everyone in the world tells you something, you're like, is that true? So everyone in the world always says that with your second like your chiller. Like you're not the crazy overprotective, like listening to the breathing on the. And that's how the second kids are usually the ones that play out by themselves, like are more independent because you kind of change. Do you, do you feel that or are you.

[B]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Well, because I. Because my second born.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Are the twins.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's doubly like you're going to figure this out, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sorry. Go ahead, guys. Like definitely. And if I can recall Covid newborn phase with a five year old. I mean. Yeah. So precious. But see my now having parented like a lot of different ages, I feel like, you know, newborn, you're not, you're not parenting. You are, you're, you're, you're caretaking, you're raising. You're like, it's hard physical work but you know, you're not gonna lose your temper, I think with, with this helpless completely. I mean, and if you are, by the way, you're clearly like struggling with all these things that you're actually struggling with your Parents and like this, the only, you know, for the first, like three or four years of my five year old's life, I feel like the only times that I would get upset was when I, like, imagined that I should be doing a better job than I am. And that's just like this harsh, critical, inner parent kind of stuff that we're all.

[A]

Yeah. The guilt.

[B]

So to me, I don't know really what kind of parent, what kind of father I'm going to be to these twins, in fact, because again, right now it's just like keeping them alive.

[A]

Yeah. You're calling the twins. I feel like they're forever going to be the twins. Yeah.

[B]

There's two of them. There's two of them. They look, you know, like they don't even get to look unique.

[A]

Did you guys have any? Because once you have boys, even I have two boys now. Everyone's like, are you going to try for a girl? Like, do you guys get that? Especially you have people who say that.

[B]

And I'm like, I do not want 17 children.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we actually have a friend. My. My wife's business partner. She works in. In. In the birth field. Like, she's a birth worker in Doula, and her. Her colleague had two sets of twins in a row.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

They have seven children.

[A]

Wait, after having kids?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no. Is she Hilaria Baldwin? She's not.

[B]

She's hilarious.

[A]

Yeah, she is.

[B]

She is. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, look, once you've had twins, the probability of having twins again goes up. So it's like we, if we, if we were to. I mean, why, why would, why would we try? But like, if we were to try, I mean, we could have twins.

[A]

Wait, but you're not.

[B]

And they could be boys, by the way.

[A]

But you're not saying. No, we had six. This was.

[B]

So if somebody says you're trying for a girl, I'm like, trying for what?

[A]

I know.

[B]

Trying for.

[A]

But how does your wife feel? She feel that is. She. Did she.

[B]

I don't want to call her out, but she was saying like a week after childbirth, like, call this postpartum mania. She did say, like, you know, I think we could have a. You know, should we. No.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I was like, baby, you do not. You do not want. I. I'm saying this for you. Yeah, we, you know, but I even had shades of it. The funny thing about newborns is that you're in this weird kind of like, altered state. You don't you don't know what's really going on.

[A]

You.

[B]

You don't. You're not rational. You're like. It's just such a different wavelength. Oh, my God.

[A]

I know. Are you so tired? Is that what.

[B]

I'm tired? I'm just.

[A]

And you're, like, coming out with a book. Like, you're. This is what I'm talking about right now. What was this timing about? Does Dom wanna. Can I call it Dom? Okay. I made a tort for everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such a cool name.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

She's so cool, that whole family.

[B]

Yeah, the Kirks. That's true. They are very.

[A]

Is she like, why the heli. Would you line up the. Your book coming out.

[B]

I line up. So here's the thing. So. So you don't line that you cannot change a due date and you cannot change a publishing date.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You can, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The. We agreed that this publishing day, like a year and a half ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we conceived this child like a year ago. You know, it did occur to me right after.

[A]

These children.

[B]

Yeah, these children. At first I was like, children. And I was like, oh, yeah. What do you mean?

[A]

You're still digesting this?

[B]

Four of them. No. Yeah. Two of them, though. Yeah, I. I did. It did. It did occur to me. And I told. Right after we knew she was pregnant, I was like, this is going to pull me out of paternity leave too soon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we were prepared.

[A]

Yeah. And she's a doula, so, like.

[B]

Yeah. So there. So there's this time around, you know, the pandemic kid, we had no support for like a year, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which was, in its own way, kind of great. But you also weren't pulled out into the world so much. I mean, I did shoot a season of my show, and there were some things were pretty intense about it, but. But there was a specialness to it.

[A]

I agree. You know, because it puts you kind of like in the trenches where I feel like everyone, even if you can get help, should have an experience of raising their kid, if you can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like just doing it. Like just you guys in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

You know, sometimes we tiptoe around this because for obvious reasons, like, some women have to go back to work after two weeks.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, some. You know, but if we lived in a. In a social system that really supported everybody. Really supported everybody. Everybody wants to raise their kids. Yeah, everybody does. And if there's. I mean, what we've also come to say, I think is, like, Whatever makes the mother happiest is best for the children, which I in large part agree with. Again, I think in a social system where that's truly just, it's truly equal, it truly supports all people. I, I think, I think any parent is going to be happiest being able to parent their children, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, that's what you want. We're, we are, we are hardwired to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, all this kind of negotiation around that. I think it's very simple. If you. The only reasons that you're not able to be there are reasons that are usually out of your control.

[A]

I agree. We'll be right back after the break. Oh my God, you guys. I just literally filmed myself making a smoothie because I, I've showed you my smoothie before. I kind of told you how I make it. But people want to know. People want to know like the deeds, like exactly, like how much water, how much ice. And I'm like, so let me film myself. And then I filmed myself and I was like, oh my God, how do like the aesthetically pleasing influencers do it? Because like I just don't look cute doing things. And it looks just like, why is there a normal person making a smoothie on the Internet? But I guess like everyone's a normal person. Anyway, what I was going to show you in this video that maybe I will post or maybe will not is that I make a morning smoothie with protein powder and I use Clean Simple Eats. I love Clean Simple Eats protein powder. It's amazing. I use their chocolate flavor. I'm obsessed with their chocolate flavor. I'll put it in a smoothie. Sometimes I'll use like one scoop vanilla and one scoop chocolate so you get like 40 grams of protein. What I love is that there's nothing artificial in Clean Simple Eats protein powders. They're third party tested, they're non GMO and there is zero added sugar. And by the way, the, the protein is grass fed weight protein isolate. So that makes me happy. That makes me feel good. It's good. I highly freaking recommend it. So you can VisitClean Simple Eats.com and you can use my code not skinny10 at checkout for 10% off your order. That's Clean Simple Eats.com. the code is not skinny10 for 10% off your order link is also in the show notes. I've told you once, I've told you again about this, about this specific issue, which is baby onesies, that when you have a baby you just know if you get a gift from anyone that has snaps, okay? Like, the closure is snaps. Like, ask them if they are re gifting a gift from 2003, because it went from snaps to zippers to, like, two way zippers that sometimes that scares me could get, like, caught on their skin. And in the middle of the night, you don't know what you're doing, where you're pulling a leg out from. If that zipper goes up, goes down, it's like a whole thing. And that's why I fell in love with Magnetic Me. Magnetic Me is so freaking good. It makes it so much easier to get your baby dressed, especially if they're being fussy and rolling around, especially in the middle of the night when you barely can see anything. Magnetic Me is just such a perfect mom hack and also such a perfect gift. If your friend is having a baby and you want to, like, buy, buy her some stuff that you know that you would like and that has like, a thing. Like, you're not only getting her PJs, you are getting her magnetic PJs. Okay? Magnetic me makes changing time quick and easy. By the way, their clothes are so comfortable, soft, made out of, like, amazing fabric that is gentle on the skin. And I love their designs. They come out with new collections all the time, and I'm always checking their site for the latest prints. So do what I did. Order Magnetic Me today to make changing time easier for you and your little one. And these make great gifts, like I said, for friends or family with babies. New customers get 15% off your first order when you go to magnetic me dot com. Don't wait. Order today at magnetic me dot com. All right, let's talk vitamins, because if you're anything like me, you've definitely bought a random multivitamin at some point at cvs, taken it for three days, and then never again. And that's why I love Ritual, because it's the first vitamin that I've actually stuck with. Ritual makes vitamins that are clean, traceable, and formulated with exactly what you need. And none of the weird, shady extras like you can actually literally see the ingredients right there inside the capsule. It's cute, it's transparent. It's literally like me, cute and transparent. Plus, it doesn't make you nauseous on an empty stomach. So I take the essential for women every morning. It's got all the good stuff, like D3, Omega 3s, B12, everything that I'm probably not getting from my morning coffee and vibes. They also have options for men, prenatal postnatal teens. They literally have everyone covered and they also have you covered from like, you know, if you choose to get pregnant. So from pregnancy to postpartum, they literally support your entire pregnancy journey and you can trust them. So if you've been wanting to get your vitamin life together but don't know where to start, this is your sign. Ritual is the number one best selling prenatal. Don't settle for less than evidence based support. My listeners get early access to their Black Friday sale for 40% off your first [e-mail] not skinny. That's ritual.com not skinny. For 40% off your first month. Don't miss out on the best sale of the season. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, prevent any disease. And we're back. Your birthday is coming up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, why do you laugh at a birthday guy?

[B]

Like, why? I mean, at this point I'm almost 40, I have 8 million children and I'm just like, I'm just like, no.

[A]

One'S going to care.

[B]

What is a birthday?

[A]

Like, like everyone, like, it's another day of the. Yeah.

[B]

But yes, my birthday is coming up.

[A]

And also it's 39 this year. Right. So it's not even the 40.

[B]

It's not 40. No.

[A]

So you're like, no one's gonna care this year.

[B]

40. 40 would be an interesting moment.

[A]

Yeah. Are you nervous about turning 40?

[B]

No.

[A]

Are you like excited to step into that?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Zaddy era.

[B]

As. I mean, I think I'm already in it. If the comments are.

[A]

The comments are zaddy on Syria. Zaddy pen.

[B]

Yeah. I think I got to be honest, I got zaddy more like, I think the. Here's a word. Penultimate season of my show. You. So the fourth season, the second and last season, I got a lot of zaddy. I. I haven't heard it in a while.

[A]

I'm bringing it back. It's my cringe. I'm saying it.

[B]

Yeah. I think cringe is even a bit cringe. It is.

[A]

Are you into astrology because you're a Scorpio?

[B]

I'm not. I. So here's why, though. I studied it and there is so much inconsistency within the system that I feel like it's like there's no kind of rhyme or reason to it. Everybody. It's a little, it's a little like you tried. You're just studied it. You're like, read a natal chart and I'm telling You that the more you, the. The more you kind of look into what every practitioner. It's just. I mean.

[A]

Wait, are you calling on all of astrology?

[B]

Both full. No, because I think that the human spirit, the human mind is so impressive, is so capable of understanding itself, that even if you use a really flawed and fallacious system, that you can understand things about yourself. But I think the idea that there's only 12 types, for instance, that's like. That becomes spiritual eugenics.

[A]

12 types. Like what about your moon, your rising?

[B]

Okay, so 12 multiplied by 12. Let's call it 144 types. Let's. Let's just say for variability.

[A]

Let's do really quick math.

[B]

Let's just do really quick math. For variability, we're saying there's 144 types. Like that is even. It's just so reductive. Here's what it is. It's reductive because by the way, just like, you know, everybody kind of rolls. The rise of religion. First of all, astrology has become the new secular religion. Everybody's just like, you're a what? I mean, that's what. That's what I get religious people used.

[A]

To do, by the way.

[B]

It's so superficial. It's like not even understanding your own system. Tell me something about a Scorpio.

[A]

Wait, let me tell you something about it. Are you this defensive because Scorpios get so much.

[B]

See, it's like, it's so. It's self perpetuating like any like any bullshit system.

[A]

Like if you. Good sign. I'm just kidding. You wouldn't feel this way.

[B]

Yeah, well. Cuz you know what the best sign Scorpios are? Dark and sexy. Who doesn't want to be dark and sexy? Come on.

[A]

Well, so Ryan Gosling had this interview, I don't know if you saw it, where they asked him about his sign and he said like that he hates saying what his. He's a Scorpio.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. He hates saying what a sign is. And he was like, people just say like, better watch out for that tail. Sure. Like. And you get all this. So is that why you're secretly against astrology?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Do you know your moon and sun and rising? All of it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, what is it?

[B]

I have five planets in Scorpio and my.

[A]

That's a lot of planets.

[B]

My son, my moon.

[A]

But see, here's rising.

[B]

The ones that rising is Sagittarius. The ones that.

[A]

Oh, me too. Sagittarius is a nice.

[B]

You have to keep in mind like when you get into the planets, the planets that are real far away. Guys, there's millions of people in the same generation as you. Millions upon millions of people. They all have the same Pluto. They all have the same Uranus. They all have. They all have it, y'. All. No, the variability really comes from the rising and the houses, because the rotation of the house.

[A]

And what's your rising?

[B]

Nobody knows anything about the houses, y', all, because you don't study it. You practice it, but you don't study it. Guess what? That's dumb. So it doesn't even matter that astrology is or isn't our practice of it is.

[A]

So do not identify with any Scorpio. No. And with any Scorpio attributes where you're like, that's so Scorpio.

[B]

Scorpionic attribute is not unique to astrology. To be penetrating is a human quality. Yeah, that's not astrology. To look deeply into something, that's a human quality. It's not just astrology.

[A]

You are right there.

[B]

It's human. So here's why astrology.

[A]

But do a lot of Scorpios have a penetrative quality? I don't know.

[B]

Because if we haven't actually done a scientific inquiry into it, is what I'm saying. If you believe in science and modernity, then you have a serious schism in you. If you believe in astrology without studying it.

[A]

I just know what the podcast title is going to be.

[B]

It's going to be all of this.

[A]

No.

[B]

Fit. All of this.

[A]

No. It's going to be like, there's nothing. I feel like that more describes a Scorpio than. No, not Scorpio. You is, like, so unseriously serious.

[B]

Someone's here. Yeah.

[A]

Because, like, that's really you.

[B]

I'm telling you.

[A]

The question is if it's a Scorpio thing. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No more Scorpio. Scorpio talk. You started this career when you were.

[B]

I thought you're gonna be like, you started this.

[A]

You started this career when you were a child. You're a child actor.

[B]

I'm a child.

[A]

You're a child and a child actor.

[B]

I am, Yes. I started when I was. I started when I was nine. Kind of like formerly, but unprofessionally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In community theater and the like. And then I was professional living in LA by the time I was 12.

[A]

You moved with your mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was that a mom? Was your mom seeing something in you? Did it come from. From you?

[B]

She was like, he's a Scorpio. I think he's gonna be a performer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom was definitely so. Well, first, what she was seeing was my isolation and my kind of like, early onset of depression in response to what was happening in our kind of. In our family system. We had moved. We had no neighbors, I had no friends. I was not in school for the first while because it was summer. We'd moved across the country kind of suddenly, and so she knew that I did like music, I did like to perform, just little bits that I'd done in school. So she found a playhouse that was 50 miles away from where we lived at that point on Tiger Mountain in Washington State. Probably don't know it. And then I started doing more kind of like semi professional kind of amateur theater companies in Washington state and Seattle. So the first. The first opening night of my first play was like, this is incredible. You know, I want to do this for the rest of my life. Because it was so not the kind of environment I'd been in. It was really social, really, relatively speaking, diverse. Really, like, great. It was. It was stimulating. It was like. It was like. It was like being a part of culture, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. That was great. Did either of us. Could we ever foresee that that was going to become, only in a few short years, like a. A serious professional pursuit? No.

[A]

But when you moved to la, that was the intention now.

[B]

Yeah. So a few years later, after so many people saying, you should go to la, you should go to la, I mean, there's a whole thing you could explore there. Like, why are so many people saying that? What? But anyway, yeah, they. That was the, like, the thing. And ultimately we went to la. Really. Which. And I do write a whole lot about this in the book because it's kind of my whole formative time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like starting at 12 out now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know. Yes.

[A]

Promote it.

[B]

Is that now already a bestseller?

[A]

Shut the.

[B]

I found out yesterday. I was like. And I kept on. I kept on being like, so you can leave. I know, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why am I doing this? I have. I have children at home who are crying. Yes. We moved to LA for two equal reasons. One was because it was really what I wanted to do. But part of what really motivated us to go and really made me want to do it and my mom think it was possibly a healthy move was because my parents, they were not only divorcing, they. They had. They had a. I think what is common but not still like the average, it was very toxic. It was like. It Was like a particularly. And I was an only child, so, like, it was. It was. The vibe at home was real because change was necessary.

[A]

You wanted to get out of that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We. We all needed a change. And so this. This was, in a way, almost the lowest hanging fruit, it seems. Like, not just we're getting a divorce and doing all that. It was like, there's a reason to go somewhere else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It literally is sunny. You know, like, Washington state is rainy, and it's like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it just. It just. There were many things. Yeah, many things. And by the way, you. You find that in, I would say, a majority of child actors, there's some really, like, driving force behind them, some familial impulse, really. Driving. Because why otherwise would it seem ever at all good, practical, desirable, healthy to. To, like, uproot a child's life with one of their parents?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rarely, both parents are going to be able to go.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Move from wherever they live to, like, to Hollywood. And that's not. You know.

[A]

But you enrolled in, like, school. Like, were you doing the normal.

[B]

I was doing homeschool.

[A]

Oh, wow. So I didn't.

[B]

I didn't finish middle school. Yeah, I didn't finish middle school, and I went to one month of high school.

[A]

And you're, like, the smartest person alive. School is such. No, I mean, listen to this dude on this pod.

[B]

You know what it is? I didn't. I never learned. I never came to hate learning. I always love to learn because I never got, I think, that very institutionalized thing. Not long enough, you know?

[A]

So if your kids want to drop out of school.

[B]

If my kids want to drop out of school. Well, okay, so my stepson, we actually tried to move out of the city for his first year of high school. We thought New York City high school, way too intense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Way too much of a thing. Ever seen Gossip Girl?

[A]

It's just like, that guy.

[B]

It's all like that. Yeah, it's all like that. But. But it is a thing. Everybody knows. I mean, in New York City, like, even you're going to public school, whatever you're doing, it's crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But for a number of factors, it seemed like, all right, he might actually flourish here. And I gotta say, he is. He is. He's. He's really. He's going to a very, like, intense, serious school. He's in his 11th grade year, so he's. What we talk about now is, like, you. You. He might be in the hardest year of his entire academic career, no matter where he goes. Because he's in such a, Like a rigorous. Good school. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, wow. Intense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, well, I didn't finish middle school.

[B]

Right, Right. And so. But he's flourishing, and I think he needed that.

[A]

So we're going to jump a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, let's keep talking about the institutional.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's a separate part. So 11, you're starting to act in L. A. Yeah. Let's jump on over to 20. When you get Gigi.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you get Gossip Girl.

[B]

More girls.

[A]

When you get Gossip Girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One of my favorite shows of all time. Okay, sorry.

[B]

No apologies. That's just.

[A]

Okay. Watching it in real time for astrology.

[B]

You do not have to be sorry for. You do not be sorry.

[A]

I'm that you guys. Basic as they come as astrology. Gossip Girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I watched was what? You know, I feel like a lot of people say this. I was watching in real time because there's so many people re watching and Gen Z jumping on, but, like, we're talking about, like, living it. Like, living in that moment of watching it and loving it. So I heard that you didn't want it at first. Didn't want to take the role.

[B]

Yeah, like, like much things in my life. Yes. Yeah.

[A]

I kind of vibe with that, though. That's so me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is that? Is it a Scorpio thing? I'm just kidding. Is it, what is it? Like, what was it about Gossip Girls specifically that you, you didn't want to take it?

[B]

Okay, well, the real answer is that I had been doing it for nearly a decade. Right, Right. I had been doing it for a decade. I'd been in LA for eight years. I'd been working already for eight years. At 20 years old and a young 20, I'd, like, just turned 20. I was tired of it. I, I had not been to school, college. I had gotten into USC years earlier, but never went because been on a show, you know, I, I, I, I felt like I had, I'd read hundreds of television scripts. They all had the same or very similar voices. I really wanted to get an, a regular job because I was just about to need to, you know, for the first time, like, I had to be. I had been financially independent for many years, kind of supporting my parents on and off when they needed it. And then I finally was like, all right, I'm gonna have to get, you know, a real job. Okay. So probably a waiter maybe. I entertained the idea of, like, delivering alcohol to, like, the homes in the hills, because that was like, before, Before Delivery was a thing. You could get everything delivered. It was like this sort of novel. It was like you make good tips.

[A]

Like a premium service.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was something that my mom suggested. I remember being like, that's an idea.

[A]

Then you can meet people and go into their homes and network. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it was really like, you know, I was again, a young 20, and I was like, I was willing to try a number of things and, and excited about that opportunity because I knew how strange and unusual the bubble I'd grown up in was. But as a Scorpio, I love to pop that bubble. You know what I'm saying? So. And I also really wanted to play music. Music had always been my first passion. I never had the time to actually kind of like, really workshop it, work on it. I really wanted to do that. And then thinking, so there used to be a thing called pilot season. I guess there is still a pilot season now, but it's. Streamers have changed. Just the rhythm of everything. But it used to be big. Like, pilot season was, you know, if. Unless you are just like film, film, film and only film. And I don't know, I don't know who's really able to start that way, at least in the early 2000s. Because you gotta work that pilot season, which always starts like January, February. Ish. At least you're getting scripts. Then I got the script for Breaking.

[A]

Bad to be Jesse.

[B]

Yeah. And, and that script I read. And I was going into this pilot season being like, I told my agent, like, I don't want to go out on anything. And I had done it long enough that they had to respect that. They were like, yeah, fair. But they did send me that. They sent me that. I think they were like, we're going to send you a few things. And I got the script for Breaking Bad and I was like, that is to that day. It was, it was, it was the, it was by far and away the best and most compelling television script I'd ever read. It had a different voice. It really did. It had a different quality to it. So I went out on that. It actually ended up being me and Aaron Paul, who tested for it. And of. You know, and I tell this not as like a, you know, it's obviously he was meant for it. Great. Awesome. So happy that didn't happen for me. Like, all good. But I, I.

[A]

You are happy it didn't happen for you. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, well, also, it's a complete fantasy. Who knows? Like, if I lived in New Mexico for.

[A]

Right. It would have been a different parallel universe. Yeah.

[B]

Like, I. I actually don't wish that had happened, but the project was clearly amazing. I knew it was like, this is. This is different. This is the beginning of something different. And yeah, I tested with Aaron Paul, one of three auditions ever that I thought, I'm gonna get this. And the other two I did get. So, you know, I went on the audition for Breaking Bad rather than network test and really thought, like, I think I'm gonna get that. And I didn't. And I wasn't even crestfallen. I was like, okay, so I'm done with tv. I really don't want to do tv, you know? And I think a few weeks later, soon after the creators of Gossip Girl, one of the co creators, Stephanie Savage, emailed me with a script and said, we have a role here for you that we think you would like. Because I had done a show with her a few years prior. See, I mean, I've been working.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, a while, so.

[A]

Was it an offer only sitch?

[B]

It was, yeah. She was offering it to me.

[A]

She was offering it.

[B]

She was offering it to me. I mean, definitely offering it to me once. And, and she. She even said the words, I think you will have. Feel that you have done this already, which is to play these sensitive, like, awkward, nice guy, but we really think you're this guy. And I. And I read it and, and I, I. My response was essentially like, thank you so much. You're right. I do feel as though I've done this. And I. And I'm not really interested, and I wish you very well. And it was, that was. That, like, it was a very. It was kind of like, I don't think they're on her part. I, I have no idea what she thought then.

[A]

But what were you thinking? Were you thinking, like, I think, I.

[B]

Think it was clear to me. I didn't. I did. I wasn't interested because I wasn't interested.

[A]

You just weren't. And that was important to you to be interested in the project. Yeah. Because a lot of you.

[B]

Because what you do is you sign your life away for at least six years, possibly more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you know, a television contract is. Yeah. It's a big commitment. So, you know, I just was like, I. I really want to explore music. I want to work in film more. Yeah. Thank you, but no, thank you.

[A]

We'll be right back after the break. You guys know that I'm the kind of makeup girl that actually makes sense. Like, makeup that makes sense. Like, why are we still using heavy, Cakey Foundation. 2025, like, when there is say. Okay, Say is a clean makeup brand that manages to make you look like yourself, just like, better. Just like the Paris filter. Okay. I really became obsessed with their slip tint. It's a tinted moisturizer with SPF that gives you, like, glowy hydrated. But, like, I don't care. I'm too cool to, like, even own a foundation vibe. I love a tint. I love a tint. And this is a really, really good one. It's clean, it's easy, super blendable. I highly recommend it. Another thing is, like, say has the best lip glosses. I have three. Three in every single bag. It is the perfect amount of glossiness. It is the perfect amount of non stickiness. And it just, like, has a shine. It stays. And like I said, it's like a clean, good brand you want to use. Okay? So listen to me when I tell you that. I also love their blush. It's called Do Blush. It's super blendable. It's a buildable, liquid cool cream blush. I have, like, a really baby pink one that I love. I'm obsessed with it. So with this, you can literally say goodbye to harsh lines. They have an amazing creamy formula. It literally is seamless. It's never patchy or streaky. You can find say spelled S A I [e-mail] and every Sephora store across the United States and Canada. [e-mail]. i'm really into recycling, you guys. And my favorite new form of recycling is the real real. If you guys are not shopping or consigning on the real real, what are you doing? It's the perfect place to get authenticated luxury. We're talking Gucci, Prada, the row, but at prices that don't make you feel like you need to call your accountant and warn them or have the bank call you and warn you. Okay? What I love about the real real, always new finds, always exciting new pieces, and everything is authenticated by actual experts. So no, you cannot land on a fake. There is no sketchy vibes. It's all legit. Legit, real, verified, amazing. Okay, Highly recommend it. Highly recommend. If you have an event, a wedding, like, make the real real. One of the stops you go to to look for a dress. And actually what a perfect place to look for a dress because especially when you're a guest at, like, a wedding, like, okay, wear it, sell it. Like, you don't need that in your closet anymore. You wore it already. Also, this holiday season, Coming up, you can shop 10,000 pre loved designer items that drop daily. Okay, so you're not on the real Real. Get on it. The real real is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale. With thousands of pre loved luxury arrivals daily. No one does resale like the real real and no one makes the holidays shine brighter than the real real. Now you can get $25 off your first purchase when you go to the realreal.com/not skinny. That's the real real.com/not skinny. To get $25 off, start shopping now at the realreal.com not skinny. You guys, I'm coming in hot from the studio. We were just saying it's so cold in studio today. That's why I'm wearing my Columbia amaze puff hooded jacket. This is the waist length one so it gives a little bit of cropped vibes and I love this color. This color is tobacco. They also have like more metallic colors if you're into that vibe. I'm kind of into this like brown shade this fall. This is my new color this fall. Mark my words, it's going to be like the color. Mark my words. Like I said, it comes in three different lengths. It comes in a waist length, a mid and a long. Kind of loving the waist length because when I stand up, it does give kind of cropped also, you know, I love a little thumb hole situation. I also love how not only is it so cozy, warm and comfortable, it's also chic. And that's important because I don't know if you guys remember Law Roach was on my pod and he was like getting the ick from winter coats. And he was like, people think that you could just like wear winter coats and look ugly to be warm. Not the case with this amaze puff hooded jacket. You could do both. You could look cute and you could be warm and cozy and comfortable. Also, it's obviously water resistant. And this hood that we like, it can come off if you don't want it. You guys, it's removable, which I love that because sometimes you just want like a cropped jacket look without a hood. Literally. This feels like I'm like wearing a hug. I'm obsessed with it. I'm telling you guys, the amaze puff hooded jacket is the one that you need this winter season. Head to Columbia.com to get your amaze puff hooded jacket. They're tough on cold, soft on you. And we're back. Was there a voice in your head saying this might like catapult me, am I.

[B]

Well, it wasn't my voice. It ended up being my, my manager's voice. Because two months go by, she comes back. At that point, they hadn't cast anybody once they'd cast everybody except for Dan. They came back and were like, we haven't, you know, I don't know how many people they saw. I don't know how hard they looked, but they were like, we. I don't. Maybe the whole time they're like, we'll get him. Just wait. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But they, but they, they came back and we're like, we really think you're the guy. Really reconsider this. And at this point, my manager and agent took a different position before. They were very accepting. And then they were like, we. You know, this could be huge. That's what it's positioned to be. This is the kind of thing that you could do, as you say to catapult. Now keep in mind though, it's hard. It's hard to get on a show like that. It's harder to get on a show and then get off a show like that. It's hard to actually continue a career. You know, you think of a giant, giant project like that, right?

[A]

I mean, you guys think about like Vampire Diaries, like, yeah.

[B]

And you. And you think of also the pedigree. It's like it's. I think it's, it's a great writer's medium. You know, writers love that kind of, that, that form, that kind of show. It's not an actor's show. You know, I mean, that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say.

[A]

It's like in terms of like. What do you mean? Like showing your abilities.

[B]

It's not. I think if anything, you know, and I say this with compassion, force sensitivity, the whole system. I think if anything past the like second season, you start developing bad habits on a show like that. As an actor, you know, like what? You know, you're just, you, you can be careless with things. You're not gonna, you know, you're just not bringing your A game bp. And here's why. It doesn't matter if it's the best of an Emmy winning show or something that's on stars. Sorry, Stars. But you know, it's. It's. Or to be right or sorry to be. Sorry to be. Next I'm gonna be Roku.

[A]

Sorry. Roku. No, I'm just kidding.

[B]

You know, think about it this way. You got six series regulars on a show like that. Or, let's say four. Four to six. What is. What is a show like that about? It's about their relationships. What does a show need to do? It needs to. It needs to highlight conflict and drama and then resolve it. So what it does is it necessarily puts all the series regulars in constant tension and conflict with one another that they have to resolve in order to sort of, like, stay together so that the show can keep going. But once you've done one kind of conflict and resolution, you have to do another.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it keeps. They keep doing worse and worse things to each other. And the only reason they ultimately are able to resolve it is because the show's still going. And so it actually gets to the point where everybody has liked each other and fucked over each other in the same way. It's just like. It becomes this, like, this knot, this nonsensical knot of relationships that if there was any shred of reality to it, it'd be like, I'm done.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm extricating myself from this social circle like anybody would. But you say so. I'm just saying, like, just. Just. It's. It's. This is not unique to Gossip Girl. It's not unique to. It's. It's a. It's a facet of television.

[A]

Wouldn't you just say, like, fudge it? It's entertaining, the end of the day?

[B]

Yeah. If you're watching it, you can.

[A]

If you're watching it, right?

[B]

If you're spending 14 hours a day, five days a week, 10 months a year.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, I'm devoting my life to this.

[A]

So were you dying for it to end?

[B]

I wasn't dying for a 10. I was. I was happy for it to end.

[A]

You were? When it ended?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, do you like how it ended? Not only that you were Gossip Girl, but there were some other things.

[B]

Like, weird. What some of them are.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

What are some of those things?

[A]

Like, you got married, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean. But see, that happened, like, right in the last 30 seconds.

[A]

I know. And I remember, like, I remember the feelings of being like, wait, what? Like, I remember the ending. I don't know if I would call it disappointment pointing. Then I think it was more like, wait, where did we go?

[B]

Here's also my other thing about, like, sorry, it's too practical. It's seriously unserious like that. A show like that is never about how it ends.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

It's always about how it keeps going. It can't end. It can't end. In a way. That that is satisfying or. Or. Or sensible to anybody.

[A]

Do people ask you about reboots?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what do you say?

[B]

I mean, by what I've said, I think it's probably pretty clear what I think about a reboot, you know, like.

[A]

What were one of your favorite, like, guest stars? I saw Hillary. The clip popped up for me today.

[B]

And that's a guest star. She actually. I forget, but she had a real. She was. She was in for like a whole season. I think she. She was in there a lot. That was nice. I did really like working with her. I think actually my. Just as a thing. Lady Gaga was, you know, we. She was on. And from what I recall, it was a scene with me and Leighton. I don't know who else of the main cast was in it. A bunch of that, like, storyline. I don't remember at all why she's in the show. Not remotely. I know where we were shooting. That's all I can recall. And I just remember meeting her. And this was before she'd had a hit. So the song that had not come out yet was playing over and over for the playback when they were shooting. Her song.

[A]

What was it? Was it Poker Face?

[B]

It must have been if it was the first. What was her first song?

[A]

I think it was Poker Face. Yeah. Or Just Dance Gonna Be okay.

[B]

I think it was. Yeah, because that was. And I was like, what is this song like? I mean, and it was so, you know, it was such an earworm having not heard it anywhere else. I remember being like, okay, this is a thing. And then she. She. I mean, she's amazing. So I think.

[A]

I think that was a fun one.

[B]

That has an interesting, like, gem.

[A]

What was it like for you living in New York for six years?

[B]

Amazing. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, that was.

[B]

That was really the reason why I did it.

[A]

Yeah. Because it wasn't in, like a. I mean, shade to New Mexico. We're shading a lot of things today, but, like, of the.

[B]

Of the news.

[A]

You have the news.

[B]

It was a good new.

[A]

Would you ever do like a re.

[B]

Watch of Gossip Girl?

[A]

Yeah, you know, you could troll it.

[B]

Do you mean like the whole.

[A]

I mean, people do like, re watch pods.

[B]

It's a whole rewatch pod.

[A]

I mean, you're a pod guy.

[B]

Yeah, I suppose if I haven't worked in a few years and I. And I am paying that, by the way, mortgage.

[A]

That is such a good fallback.

[B]

So. Yeah, I have fallbacks. I don't. Nobody wants to fall back. But I do have some fall back.

[A]

Yes. Some Fallbacks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean, you did. You had a pretty great career up until now. Like, iconic characters that everyone will remember their name. No one will forget Dan Humphrey.

[B]

They're easy names. Joe and Dan.

[A]

Not like Pen. Not like Pen. Joe and Dan. How did you feel when Joe came to an end? When you came to an end, when.

[B]

Similarly, it was time, you know, it was time. It was like. It was definitely time. You know what? I. Because that character has to come to a. To an end, like, in some kind of proper way, because you can't. I think it's fun and stuff, and it does have camp to it, but it deals with such themes, if you really examine them, are like, they're important. You know what I mean? I'm not saying the show is important, but I'm saying what it's about is really important to handle with some real sense of justice and truth and. You know what I mean? So that character had to come to an end before it completely jumped a shark. And I think we did that. I think we ended it kind of in the only way that you could.

[A]

Who would win in a fight? Joe or Dan?

[B]

Dan. I mean.

[A]

I mean, could Dan surprise us, you know? No.

[B]

No, no. Well, if they have the exact same physical makeup, then I don't know. Maybe it would be fine because it's not like Joe's Dexter.

[A]

Look how deep you are. Like, exactly. Same physical makeup. Yeah, he's too deep for us. You know what I mean?

[B]

Just a bunch of words to say if they're the same.

[A]

If they were the same.

[B]

No, I know. And they are the same. So I don't know. I. I'm. I. I'm always. I'm the least fun answerer of fantastical questions. I mean, I guess it would be Joe, but maybe. I mean, Dan punched. See, Joe. Joe would never. I feel like Joe is actually, technically speaking, way more of a loner and way nerdier than. Than Dan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dan. I was thicker than, like, you think early season Gossip Girl? I was, like, a little bit thicker and, like, had my short hair, and it was like, yeah. Kind of talking like this, and. And he was angry. He punched people.

[A]

Like, he was a little angry kind.

[B]

Of right from the jump. Whereas Joe waits and waits and waits and waits. He would let somebody punch him and then, like, stab him in the back.

[A]

So are you changing your answer?

[B]

Joe is actually. Technically, he's more spineless. Even though everybody thinks of him as a strong dude. He's really spy.

[A]

He's so he's spineless. Maybe with Other dudes. Like, he has more.

[B]

He's real spineless.

[A]

Like, with women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's different.

[B]

So it's like. So here's the thing. Here's my answer. I think. I think Dan would win in a fight, but then Joe would kill him. He would kill him in a real spineless way.

[A]

But Joe would kill him.

[B]

He'd, like. He'd trick him and kill him.

[A]

Dan and Joe. You guys, Ben Badley is here. He has a new book coming out. Came out.

[B]

It's out.

[A]

It's out. Crushmore. It's a bestseller. You don't need to get it.

[B]

It's the best.

[A]

Yeah, get it, get it. So what, you started this pod?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What made you even start a pod? Like you're an actor. What. What got you to start this pod?

[B]

Maybe. Maybe.

[A]

Such a good name for a pod, too.

[B]

Thank you. Started it. The idea came about a few months into the pandemic from my business partner in Ava. We were forming a company. We were like. We were. Yeah. The idea came from her originally. We were narrating story. I was narrating real stories from real people who had sent them in. So that was something that we did as part of the first season. I really wanted to help with the narration initially. Of course, you involve anybody who is of my, like, celebrity stature. Immediately it's like, oh, it's Penn Badgley's podcast. So we knew that. We knew that I would have to be incorporated more than just narration. That doesn't really make sense. Am I a host? So then, you know, I became a host and, yeah, we just started asking people I knew to come on every episode of the podcast, we ask whoever our guest is, from Ariana Grande to Conan o' Brien to Bedeb and Iowa.

[A]

Name dropping.

[B]

Not name dropping. I'm name heaving is what I'm doing.

[A]

What do you ask them?

[B]

Who were you at 12 years old?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so we start. The book starts with me at 12 years old, landing at LAX in 1999. 1999.

[A]

1999. I'm singing for the third time.

[B]

Is that a song?

[A]

That's Miley Cyrus.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. See what I mean? I don't know. I know so little about culture, really make it. It's a flex, right?

[A]

It's such a flex. Like, I don't scroll. I just create.

[B]

I don't scroll. I just. Yeah. So when I. When I first moved to Los Angeles to become an actor, I still was transitioning out of my deep passion and love for music, which has always sustained, but which I was Toying with becoming professional. In part of that somehow when, when people move to, to la, every. Everybody toys with the idea of dancing. Not professionally, but like, it's a thing. It's a thing that, like there was this studio called Millennium.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

Everybody went. I don't know really what that is. Like, plenty of people who didn't dance would, would go and try. But see, I loved to dance. I loved to dance. Can you love hip hop? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I can. I, I. It's, it's uncomfortable to dance on command, so I certainly won't do it here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, I do it a bit on TikTok, but even in a way that's not like. But I really loved to dance. And I, and I. And R and B was, was my music. Like, it was not. I took it very seriously.

[A]

Okay, save the last dance.

[B]

Right. And. And so I would go to these hip hop classes. And basically the first essay is tracing my serious love of dance and music and R and B music and how that started from such an early age. But then I went through a period where I was really uncomfortable with dancing and then weirdly, have reclaimed a little bit of it, barely some, in this strange way on TikTok. And so just kind of, it's really using this, this vehicle of dance as a personal examination of this North Star that we all should have, which is play, you know, play and expression. We all need to play, we all need to express ourselves. That's a healthy, human thing.

[A]

It is true.

[B]

Right. And so, like. And for me, dance has always been a way to access that. And when I know that I'm uncomfortable to dance or afraid to dance, there's obviously something obscuring that North Star. And so, no, you know, so in some way, dance is a sign of, of health, I think, for all people. But I'll go ahead and just say me. And so I just kind of use that as a.

[A]

And there's another essay where you talk about like a really crazy sex scene that you had to do by yourself and you.

[B]

Yes, that. So that season three essay is called In Camera, where I'm sort of examining my relationship to fame and therefore the camera. The Ed Felix is sort of the advent of the camera in my life, you know, and that's. I mean, what I'm doing in all of them is like, it's, it's like I'm. I'm seeing a constellation of, of memories and kind of stringing them together. And, and so in that first essay, it's dance in the. In that essay, the one where I talk about this. This sex scene where I'm actually just. My partner is the camera because my scene partner isn't able to be there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because the camera has to be real.

[A]

Close and you're looking straight into it.

[B]

Yeah. So. But that's the. That's the sort of final scene I describe in the essay. But the whole thing is just about my relationship to the camera, which is also a cultural thing. I mean, we all have relationships with the camera. The camera has changed us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Think about it. Think about. Think about what. Gossip Girl, right? That is an out of touch sentiment now, because here's what everybody did. They turned it around and put the camera on themselves. Like Gossip Girl. What? The whole point was that she was right.

[A]

She talks about other people.

[B]

She was like, she the helly. She Gossip Girl. I'm. I'm playing the game here, okay? Gossip Girl, she was like outing people. Now people out themselves. You know what I mean? Like, what Gossip Girl was a sign of and it. And it. And it's. And its hugeness was that nobody saw the selfie coming. Nobody saw this one movement coming. And that has changed us.

[A]

You know, like experiment to actually go back, watch Gossip Girl just to see if you can find any moment with a selfie. With a selfie.

[B]

You can't do a selfie with a BlackBerry.

[A]

You can. Huh?

[B]

Yeah. Deep. This man's a writer. You think it's not deep. It is deep, son. It is deep.

[A]

That was our age, right? We used to say son.

[B]

I've noticed that to my. To my little ones. I've been saying, my son.

[A]

My son. Could you believe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Dan Humphrey would become a father of 17.

[B]

17 children.

[A]

It's crazy. Well, thank you for being here.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Everybody go check out Crush more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So much good in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your pod. Pod. Crush.

[B]

Pod crushed.

[A]

It's crushing it.

[B]

It's crushing it.

[A]

Thanks again.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny but not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but not fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcasts and rates. Write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.