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#5: How to Raise Healthy Kids in a Screen-Saturated World | Dr. Michael Rich
01:07:53
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- [00:06]
A
Hi, everyone. It's Nora latorre here with Nourish with Nora, where we help you nourish your future today. I'm so happy because our guest today is Dr. Michael Rich, who is one of my favorite people. He's an incredible doctor. He is an md, MPH he's the founder of the Digital Wellness Lab at Boston Children's Hospital, and he's an associate professor of pediatrics at Harvard, as well as the Harvard School of Public Health. Additionally, I'll add that he has personally changed my family's life. He changed the way that I parent. He changed my children's life. And he's, you know, we talked about happy kids, happy parents, and I really believe that he set up my family for more success. And so I'm so excited to be here in conversation with you, Dr. Rich. Thank you.
- [00:51]
B
I'm glad to be here with you. You're a hero of mine.
- [00:54]
A
So let's just start with what got you into this.
- [00:59]
B
Well, I spent my wicked youth in the film industry. I was a screenwriter and a documentary filmmaker and actually had the honor and privilege of apprenticing to Akira Kurosawa in Japan as his assistant director for two years and actually came back to the US and helped prepare the international release version of it. And actually, even that short time in Hollywood after having been at the knee of a master made me say, I'm not sure I want to make films for the rest of my life. But I recognized how powerfully they engage young people in particular, but all of us, I realized they were incredible force for changing hearts and minds, and that if we could harness them in ways that would help us all be healthier and smarter and more kind to each other, this would be a phenomenal thing. And so I had a midlife crisis and went to medical school was the only other thing I was interested in
- [02:00]
A
that is a career pivot from Hollywood and media to helping families navigate the media landscape. And so this book is the Media Attrition's guide. You're actually known as the Media Attrition, and I think you're the authority on helping families navigate media. And so thank you for making the pivot and learning for all of us and becoming a doctor in which is such a unique kind of combination. And I love the kind of positive parenting approach that you take, and it's super empowering. So I first heard you speak, actually, before the pandemic, and you shared something with me that blew my mind. And so I just want to talk a little bit about that. So you told the AUDIENCE and I was there that when a child is looking at the TV screen or an iPhone or a tablet, they look kind of relaxed, they look engaged. And you said while they may look calm or relaxed or slightly zoned out, what's actually happening is for a child looking at a screen, especially a very young child, it's more like them seeing a saber toothed tiger, that their amygdala is so triggered that they have so much sensory overload and imagery, et cetera, that it's overwhelming for them. And then that is why they're in that state. So could you share a little bit about that and the amygdala and then the prefrontal cortex in children and et cetera, can you break that down? And I hope I'm remembering that correctly. But maybe, maybe there's even more science on it. But it actually, you know, then the guidance came out like as little, as few screens as possible, under two. And then we'll talk about what other guidance there is. But it really made me super intentional about what screens I expose my kids to, especially in that earliest part of development. So could you share a little bit about that phenomenon?
- [03:54]
B
Yes. We were talking about the baby videos. The concept that you could put a baby in front of a video and that would make them smarter and they would be absorbing information. The sort of observation is they're watching it, they're watching it intently, therefore it must be teaching them, they must be learning. What's actually happening with very young children is something called the orienting response, which is actually that they are drawn to anything novel that is either visual or audible in their environment, because it could be like a saber toothed tiger or a fire. It's a survival reflex. It is a way of paying attention to that which could harm them. And so I think we can't ascribe more adult, more learning to that. What's really happening there and is happening for a child at all times is they are building their brain around their experience. And we need to understand that one of the reasons that human beings end up being as sophisticated as we are cognitively is that we are born with an embryonic brain that unlike other animals that have reflexes built in for clinging to mommy's fur or finding the nipple to feed oneself, we don't give away any of those circuitry to those devices, those survival devices. What that means is we can build our brains in response to the environment we are navigating at all times, and it allows us to build our brains very, very quickly. And that's exactly what kids are doing at all times. Our brain triples in volume in the first three years of life. And what is happening is not that we're growing new neurons, new brain cells, but we are making connections between those brain cells and those connections that are used time and again are reinforced. Those that are not used so much get pruned away to improve our signal to noise ratio. Unfortunately, a screen is a relatively weak set of stimuli compared to the stimuli of the natural world. And one of the reasons why we help parents understand that we should limit screens in the very early ages of a child is that they will get more from connecting with other human beings.
- [06:26]
A
And then you also spoke about not only limiting exposure, especially in those first three years, but also modeling and the role. You called out every parent in the room. And that's something like I'm still working on, especially as a busy CEO. How do I put my screen down? How do I make sure that I have healthy relationship with my screen? Because not only am I trying to protect my child and help nurture a healthy relationship for them in screens, but they're looking at me and looking at my modeling. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of that?
- [06:55]
B
Well, first of all, one of the very subversive things I ask my adolescent patients when their parents are out of the room is what could your parent do better? Almost invariably, the first thing out of their mouths is, pay more attention to me. My parent is focused on their phone or on their laptop or on the television or whatever. And so even those kids whose parents are saying, he never talks to me, I have no idea what she's thinking. They want to be present with us. They want to have time with us. And so I think that not only are we modeling behavior for them, because they will hear 100% of what we do, even if they only listen to 1% of what we say. But also, they crave us. They really crave being present with us.
- [07:51]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [07:52]
B
And even when they seem like they could care less.
- [07:57]
A
Yeah. And we need each other. We need that social interaction and that social fabric and that time together and their looking for our cues and our eyesight and our. And so one thing, you know, that I love about you as the leading media attrition and this book, which I don't think parents of, like, that many people have heard about yet. Like, I'm like, this is like just one of the best books out there because it is a guide and it is. You give, you know, you give all. You are one of the people that is Working every single day with kids and with families. And so could you talk a little bit about your work with the Digital Wellness Lab and. And how you help families navigate media?
- [08:38]
B
Absolutely. I think one of the occupational hazards of being a pediatrician is I'm optimistic. I love kids and I love what I learn from them every day. I think more important than the title of this book, the Media Attrition's Guide, is its subtitle, which is a joyful approach to raising healthy, smart, kind kids in a screen saturated world. I think we have a zeitgeist right now that the screens are ruining a generation, that kids with smartphones, kids who have social media accounts, are getting ruined by this pernicious force of social media and smartphones. And in actual fact, we have to recognize that these are not vectors of harm so much as they are powerful tools. And those powerful tools are being used usually in quite unguided ways, because parents check out of their children's digital lives, they figure their children know more about it than they do. They figure, well, just let them have their way. But the problem is that this is a very sophisticated tool which is a million times more powerful than the computer that landed Apollo 11 on the moon. And they have them in their pockets. They can reach anybody, anywhere at any time. And that means a lot of really interesting things can be learned, A lot of interesting experiences can be had vicariously, but a lot of very dangerous information, content and experiences can also be had online. And we need to be present in their digital lives the way we are present in their physical lives and help them to balance the use of these powerful tools with their humanity.
- [10:29]
A
I love that you're bringing a positive lens because I think you're right that parents are very freaked out about social media, about cell phone use, tablet use, et cetera. And I think we're waking up to its impact on us, ourselves and our relationships. And then also watching in our kids and then watching it in society, and there's more moves to remove phones from schools, and then there's cyberbullying. And one thing that I really appreciate about your book too is just all the stories that you share that are just case studies, but then also lessons that then you read about an experience that an anonymous other family had. And then you can try to, you know, protect your kid and guide your family. I love the breakdowns that you give in every single chapter. Okay, this is the problem, and here's what we can do about it. And here's real life examples of how you make it better and here's one case that didn't go well. And here's one case that did go well. What are some tips, top tips and tricks that you have for families, especially with young children? And then let's talk about middle school and high school around navigating social media specifically, and then cell phones.
- [11:34]
B
Well, I think I would start with what I call the five M's of digital wellness, which you've already mentioned. The first one of which is model the behavior you want to see in your kids. The second one is mentor them as you introduce new devices or platforms or applications. One thing parents tell me is that they dread the Internet talk more than they dread the sex talk. Because rightly or wrongly, they think they know something about sex, but they know their kid knows more than they do about the Internet and they don't like not being the expert in the room. And I say, you don't have to be a teacher here, be a mentor. Because mentors learn as much from the mentee as the mentee learns from the mentor. Sit down with that smartphone when you decide that they are responsible enough to handle it, they can respect themselves and others in that space. Sit down next to them with curiosity, not with judgment, not with fear, not with guilt, and learn it with them. Yes, they will teach you things that you never conceived of, that they can do on the phone, even though they've never seen one before or they've never actually had one before they've seen them. Learn from them and listen to them with respect for who they are and what they want. But you can also bring in your more mature prefrontal cortex, your more mature executive functions of impulse control and future thinking, so that when they mention, for example, how they can get any, anywhere, anytime, you can talk to them about hate sites, you can talk to them about pornography, not as something awful to be avoided, but as something that they will inevitably run across and that they will need to be prepared for and also be prepared to share it with you and to help you parent them in that digital space, which brings up M number three, which is be able to monitor their digital lives. This is the one that parents push back against. Oh my God, I don't have the time to play video games or go on social media as much as she does. And the kids push back. Of course I want my privacy, even though to a 13 year old privacy means so mom and dad can't see. They don't think about the millions of other people out there who may not have the best of intentions. But what you do is not monitor them all the time, but be able to have their usernames and passwords. And here's the interesting thing. You don't have to monitor them, you just have to be able to, because that will change their behavior. The same way that drug testing in the workplace changes workers behavior. What it also does is it extends that mentorship relationship where you are talking back and forth, where they are teaching you, you are learning from them, you are sharing things with them. I even say to parents, instead of screaming at your kid to stop playing grand the auto, sit down next to him and play it with him. Because you're saying, I love you, I respect you. I want to understand what engages you here. And then when you finally figure out how to steal a car, you turn to them and say, okay, I figured it out. Yay. Now let's talk a little bit about why we want to practice this over and over and over again. Right? Is this helping you be the kind of person you want to be now?
- [15:02]
A
A little gta. Okay. But yeah, let's talk through it. And I think it's also this is both of these, all of these M so far are really creating an openness about it and a conversation, an ongoing conversation, because it is an ongoing part of our lives.
- [15:15]
B
Right? And here's the cool thing. The next two M's are real goodies. Things we get. The first one is make memories. We don't make memories of the video games we play. We don't make memories of the social media trolling or the doom scrolling or the TikToks we watch over and over again. We make memories of taking a walk in the woods with grandpa or trying to make spaghetti sauce and spilling it all over the kitchen floor, or spontaneous
- [15:45]
A
noodles on the wall to see if they're done.
- [15:46]
B
You got it. Absolutely. That's the stuff that sticks with us. Like the noodles stick to the wall. But the most important thing that comes from this is the final M, which is that in doing all these things, we achieve mastery of this very powerful tool. Mastery means using it mindfully, purposefully, and in a focused way to do what it does incredibly well and turning it off when it's not the best tool for the job and spending time with each other and doing physical things like your daughter sewing. Like, you know, all these things are the things that really stick with us and are what give us the richness of our lives. And I think one of the big problems about screen time, which everybody wants to know, you know, what is the screen time limit? What, like there's some magic number at which, you know, it goes from okay to toxic. The screen time thing doesn't fit anymore. We can't even measure screen time the way we currently use it. We are in and out of screens all day long, and the kids are even more seamlessly. The issue with screen time is not necessarily what you're doing on the screen, but what you're not doing because you're on a screen. Right. You are not living your life. I came out of the hospital a while ago after an exhausting day with a lot of really troubled young people. Turned toward where my car was parked and saw a brilliant sunset. Purples and pinks and golds and all of that exhaustion, all of that sort of sense of defeatedness sort of flowed out of me. And then I looked around the street and everyone was staring at their phones, and they missed it. They missed it. And so I think we have to value ourselves, value our attention, and also value our minds more. One of the things I actually say is we have to bring back boredom.
- [17:49]
A
I love that.
- [17:51]
B
And the reason I say to each
- [17:52]
A
other, it's okay for the kids. It's good for the kids. It's not just okay for the kids to be bored. It's good for the kids to be bored. Like, that's. I love that flip. Because I think we both are like, okay, you know, they schedule that. They have a lot of activities, and, like, we're like, wait, no. Create moments of boredom. I love that.
- [18:07]
B
It's good for us, too. It's good for us.
- [18:09]
A
I can be more bored more often.
- [18:11]
B
Yeah, right? I mean, we can't get into an elevator without staring at our phone. But think about what's happening is that we are giving away our precious mind, our time, our attention to whatever drivel happens to be on that phone.
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A
Right.
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B
Instead of giving away our moment, that moment.
- [18:28]
A
Sunset, or an interaction with a stranger or a moment to take a deep breath. Like that. We give away our moments.
- [18:34]
B
Absolutely. And, you know, boredom is the crucible of creativity and imagination, innovation, because it not only gives you that mind space, but that mind space is a little uncomfortable. So you fill it with new thoughts. You fill it with what ifs. You fill it with your imagination.
- [18:53]
A
When you go to visionary town, when you're, like, wandering and wondering.
- [18:59]
B
Absolutely, Absolutely.
- [19:01]
A
I love it. Get bored. I'm seeing a title for your next more bored kids. Like, that could be your next book, I think.
- [19:07]
B
Well, one of the things I actually say is instead of seeking killer apps, we should be developing our killer bees. And there are four killer bees.
- [19:16]
A
I love these M's. I got the M's and now the B's. Okay.
- [19:19]
B
Okay, the first one is be mindful in our use of screens and in our intentional non use of screens. Be mindful of that walk in the woods or the spaghetti. Right? And in the process of being mindful, be intentionally balanced between our screen and non screen time. Rather than having screen time limits that, you know, you cut off at a certain time, how about we have intentional non screen time every day? Now, they're obvious ones, like in the bedroom, at night, at the dinner table. But how about just intentional non screen times when we're just taking a breath, as you say, as we are, you know, kind of being with each other? So be mindful, be balanced, be bored for the very reasons we say be intentionally bored.
- [20:13]
A
A calendar, so my whole team can see it too. I love it. I love it. I think it would be great for team creativity and, you know, breakthrough ideas. I'm adding it. I'm all about, you know, I put my personal health plan on my calendar. I do, you know, put board. Put boredom. I schedule. It's all on there. So I'm open book. I love. Okay, I'm adding it next week.
- [20:36]
B
If you're a CEO, you can call board meetings.
- [20:39]
A
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Can you be and is. Okay, but you can be bored together, too. Like, we're just gonna.
- [20:45]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [20:47]
A
That's when, like, thumb wars happen or things like that, you know?
- [20:49]
B
And you know what? You walked right into the final B. Be present.
- [20:55]
A
Oh, I love it.
- [20:57]
B
Be present not just for your kids who want your attention, but be present for each other and for yourself. Be in the now. And these things are rejuvenating. They build our humanity. And that's why I talk about this as a joyful approach to raising healthy, smart, kind kids. Because the joy is in their humanity, in seeing them grow up and seeing them surprise the hell out of you from time to time with the amazing things that come out of their mouths.
- [21:27]
A
The best. It's the best. And to encourage them to be present, but then to be present yourself as a parent for those moments so that you can slow down time and.
- [21:34]
B
Absolutely.
- [21:35]
A
And my kids do say, mom, I painted that for you. It's the sunset. Look, there's pink in it. Like, we do soak up sunsets. And so. But how do you really be present so that you're available to them when they have those sweet, sweet moments, too? So. And I think we do health resets a lot. And I Think I've been thinking about, you know, we talk about digital detox, but I've been really thinking about my own personal digital reset. And just, like, what systems do I have and habits do I have that I need to take a break from and reimagine a little bit? So this is these. Be mindful, be balanced, be bored, be present. I think that that's I'm going to think about in my digital reset personally and as a leader, those bees. So thank you. Love it.
- [22:17]
B
The killer bees, the killer bees.
- [22:19]
A
The killer bees also. Yeah, go spend more time gardening. But also, I love it. So I just. I also. You do. You do bring such inspiration and joy to the idea of screens. I feel like you do make them just less scary for me and you just always make it more navigable in general. So thank you for all of your work.
- [22:40]
B
Well, I thank you for all of your work with nourishing the bodies of the children and the leaders of our future. So between the two of us, I'll take care of their minds, you take care of their bodies.
- [22:53]
A
And they talk to each other, too. So the brain, we can talk about that a little bit. So you're joining Eat Rail's new medical advisory board, where I'm the CEO. You and I have talked about addiction pathways and the connections between dopamine and screens and dopamine and food. If you just kind of share, like, why did you decide to join eatrail's Food? It's a, you know, it's a food nonprofit, a real food nonprofit. And how you saw the connections between mental health in youth and screens and food. And I'll start with there, and then I have a few specific questions for you, too.
- [23:26]
B
Well, I think, first of all, our digital diet is very similar to our physical diet in the sense that we can eat too much of the wrong thing or we can eat too much of the right thing, we can eat the wrong things, and we can eat not enough of the right thing. Depending on how we nourish our bodies. I think we have to think about how we nourish our minds exactly the same way, in the sense of it's about not just the content, the quality of what we're putting in, but it's also the context. How do we consume these screens, et cetera. And in fact, there's a whole chapter in this book about body image, about nutrition. And I at the Clinic for Interactive Media and Internet Disorders, which is the clinical arm, really, of the Digital Wellness Lab, I see kids who are on both ends of the spectrum, those Kids who are what we used to in the TV days called couch potatoes, who would sit in front of a screen snacking all day and are overweight. I also see the kids who get on social media and with upward social comparison, feel like everybody is thinner, prettier, richer, happier than they are.
- [24:43]
A
The stories in the book are errors. So especially as a woman and as a mom of a daughter, like, I have son too. But those are striking. The impact on that and body image in girls.
- [24:55]
B
Absolutely. And so I think that we have to really approach these two issues hand in hand very much. And that's why I appreciate what you do and I am honored to be asked to be on your board as a result. But it's also about approaching all these things with joy, not with fear, not with guilt, and not even thinking about the digital detox. One of the things that actually we have learned in the clinic over and over again is that actually the addiction analogy is inaccurate and actually counterproductive in the sense of. It's counterproductive because in our society, we think of addiction and addicts as weak in character, as needing pity or punishment or both. And so we resist the idea that our children might be like that until they look for all the world like a junkie staying up all night gaming or whatever, and then they show up on my doorstep clinically. But here's the interesting thing about addiction is that while it's not a medical term at all, we think of addiction as use of a pleasurable but unnecessary substance, whether it be nicotine or alcohol or cocaine that is driven by physiologic drivers of wanting to feel good and wanting to. I'm sorry, I. Should I say bless you. I. I'll go back.
- [26:25]
A
Okay.
- [26:25]
B
Sorry.
- [26:25]
A
Yeah, I just had to see.
- [26:26]
B
No, I. I didn't know if that ended up on the soundtrack, so.
- [26:29]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [26:31]
B
That use of that pleasurable substance is driven by physiologic need to feel good and then not to feel bad in withdrawing from continues despite negative consequences to our social lives, our academic lives, et cetera. And our therapeutic goal is abstinence. You don't need alcohol to survive. You don't need cocaine to survive. And it's causing more harm than good. Let's think now about interactive media online. I would argue that it is now a necessary resource. We need it to learn. We need it to learn to communicate, to connect, to be part of our world right now. And it is overuse of this necessary substance that is driven not by physiologic drivers, but by psychological drivers. What we have found is in the hundreds of kids we've seen in this clinic, the problem is not what the screen is doing to the kid. The problem is an underlying driver, whether it be attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, social anxiety, autism spectrum disorder and depression. Those four or one or more of those have driven every case we've seen with the kids. And they are coming to the screens to soothe themselves, to distract themselves, to feel better. And when we identify those problems and treat them, the drive to the screen lessens, in some cases disappears altogether because they're meeting their needs in ways other than the screen. So I think that what we are seeing actually is that a better analogy than addiction is actually the most common eating disorder, binge eating disorder, which is use of food, a necessary resource, that it gets out of control because of psychological needs, of wanting to feel better,
- [28:29]
A
self medicating with screens or with food, etc.
- [28:33]
B
Exactly. And that works a whole lot better in terms of actually helping these kids. And also, one of the big problems I have with the addiction thing is it's so much easier for the person who's struggling with it to say that thing, that alcohol or that video game did it to me rather than what I did with that thing.
- [28:54]
A
And I have to go a layer deeper and go into the underlying root causes of those in order to address that thing. It's easy to just blame the thing versus the root cause.
- [29:05]
B
And that's often where the parents are when they bring the kids in, right?
- [29:09]
A
Yeah, we're seeing screen use increase and we are seeing, seeing and underlying in our youth population. And this is what Eat Real is all about. Where we're seeing ADHD, fatty liver disease, chronic kidney disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity, depression, those kind of underlying causes that you mentioned starting to soar in our, in our children. And so I think that's also where how do these things interact and these phenomenons and then how do we help create a healthier base population? And you know, we think at Eat Real we talk about, people are talking about the screens a lot, they're not talking about the food as much and then how that is impacting development and neurodevelopment and then usage of screen, et cetera. So we need healthy humans that then can use the technology and the tools in healthy ways and to optimize their futures and their existence and augment it instead of take away from it.
- [29:59]
B
Right. The other thing I really want to emphasize is that while parenting can be guided and built on science, it really is more of an art than a Science. And as with any art, we are imperfect at it. We are a work in progress and always will be. And I think that we can't be perfect parents. We should just forgive ourselves from the get go, do the best we can and remember to enjoy our kids. I think that's so, so important. Kids will all, when they hit their adolescent years, they will discover how imperfect we are. So don't even bother to try. Just be with them, help them, and keep your eyes and ears on them. Because what they want more than anything else is to be seen and heard and to matter in the world, which is the huge draw to these interactive media in the first place. That something out there, someone out there is responding to me. That's why I'm making TikToks. That's why I'm playing Fortnite with strangers.
- [31:03]
A
I'm looking for a response.
- [31:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [31:06]
A
You're just the hope doctor. I just want to say it like you are the American hope doctor that we need right now. Now. And I'm just so thankful for your work.
- [31:14]
B
I don't want it to be out of naivete, though. I want it to be out of a real drive to find the best in ourselves and each other and to acknowledge that the best is still not good enough and frankly, never will be good enough. And that's the real drive is how can I be better? How can I be better for myself, for my children, for my world?
- [31:40]
A
What are some activities that you, or like some of the bees or like tools that you. That you offer to families so that they're as they're thinking about their child's day, not thinking about the screen time, but how many hours they have, how to really build those core memories and those presents. Like, what are some of your favorite kind of core memory sparks for families?
- [32:00]
B
Well, first of all, as you might imagine, when the families come in, to me, usually the parents are frustrated and the kids are conflicted and there's a lot of tension. And the first thing I say to the parents with the kid there is, stop being the police and start supporting success. And then we talk about their day. We don't talk about limiting screen time. We talk about, let's think about the 24 hour day as an empty glass that we fill up with this many hours of sleep, recognizing how important sleep is, particularly to teenagers who are doing a lot of physical and neurological growth. And they need that sleep. And yet we have designed schedules in many ways that deny them an adequate amount of sleep, which is why they sleep in on weekends to make up for sleep deficit.
- [32:51]
A
Is there a rating you encourage parents, like, you know, if adults are seven to eight hours, what are you thinking for teenagers?
- [32:59]
B
Well, I say at minimum eight hours. Some kids need 10 or more hours of sleep, depending on how rapidly they're growing. What we have to recognize is that this is the second most rapid growth spurt in their life after, immediately after birth. And one of the things that I tell the kids that they realize is we only secrete growth hormone at night. We only grow at night. And you know why that is? We're not fighting gravity to get taller. So is that the science behind it?
- [33:31]
A
Wait, wait, is that, am I supposed to already know that? Was I supposed to learn that? That Wait, what? I didn't this morning. And I said, nico, you look so much taller. And he said, mom, I slept last night. And he, he knew it, you know, innately. And then we talk about growing food and sleep and how sleep helps you grow and all of that. But wait, is it, is it actually you grow laying down for that reason? Because you of course. Say it again, say it again. Just say it again.
- [33:57]
B
You only grow when you're asleep. And your body only secretes growth hormone when you sleep. And that is incredibly efficient if you think about it. Because growth is long, bones getting longer, spinal vertebra getting taller. And if it has to fight gravity, you don't do it. In fact, right now, if you were to measure your height, your height in the morning.
- [34:21]
A
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
And before you go to bed, it will be less before you go to bed that you actually settle during the day. Like, like it's like geology a little bit more. It's, it's, it's like geology. Right.
- [34:35]
A
But I can't wait to tell my kids this. They're going to want to remeasure themselves on our little growth chart like
- [34:42]
B
morning and evening. Yeah, it's really quite interesting. But you still sleep.
- [34:45]
A
Paramount. And we talk in business, we talk about putting your big rocks in first, your jar like and then put the pebbles in first, the majors. So one of the majors of the big rocks to fill your day with is sleep. And then. Okay, but then what else?
- [34:58]
B
And well, I think and really figure out their day. Another really important thing is a sit down family meal every day without devices.
- [35:11]
A
I'm going to put my phone in device jail. Like they actually I got advertised a little locker. Like a nicely designed, pretty looking locker. And I was like. And so I like that idea. And when I was at dinner with some friends in Aspen actually, and they collected everyone's devices, one of our friends and he put them away off the table. And it was one of the best dinners I've had in so long because no one was getting buzzed like, but I mean no one was getting like, you know, like an alert on their phone and whatnot. And they were only buzzing off of conversation and presence and storytelling and prompts and. And it was, it was definitely one of my favorite dinners. And I think, I think zero screens like at the dinner table and at the breakfast table. My kids listen to Yoto, but that's like her news briefing, so I'm gonna let her do that. But yeah, the Yoda doesn't count, does it? It's fine.
- [36:01]
B
Well, I mean, I think it's always about whether it's at dinners or not. It's always about what are the alternatives? What is a better alternative? What is the best alternative available to me right now. We have to recognize that sit down meal or meals in your case, a day together is the sing protective thing we can do not just for their nutrition, but for their mental health. Practicing the original social media called conversation. Right. And just being together, spending quality time together. Absolutely. Laughing and getting silly together. I recommend that highly. But to actually be mindful in thinking through their day of what do I do between when I wake up and when I go to school? What do I do in school? And we should talk about phones in school too.
- [36:56]
A
Yes, let's talk about it.
- [36:57]
B
Okay.
- [36:59]
A
A balanced day.
- [37:00]
B
We'll pause the day there and talk about school and phones. I have a hard time with the idea of banning phones from schools for two reasons. Number one is that anytime an American in particular hears the word ban, they say, well, that's okay for other people. It doesn't apply to me. It gives you something to push back against, something to say I'm better than whatever the other piece of it is. This is incredibly powerful tool that unless we actively teach them to use it in mindful, directed, focused ways, they will figure it out on their own and it'll be Lord of the flies, as has happened with many kids. And this is the problem with parents and schools checking out from teaching them about, about how to use phones and
- [37:50]
A
so and AI and every, you know, like we want our kids to be adept at navigating technology.
- [37:56]
B
Right. And a big part of that is be critical thinkers, be critical consumers and critical creators online. And to look at the school experience as what is the goal here? And the two main pillars of school are the didactic learning of content matter, math, science, literature, all those things does that smartphone support that? Does it hinder that? Or is it neutral? The second goal of school is the social, emotional learning that happens in school. This is the first time in their lives kids get to be individuals in a society of their own making. This is when they figure out, who do I like, who do I not like, why do I like them, why do I not like them, how do I do projects together, how do I take on challenges, how do I pick myself up after failure, et cetera. If they have in their pocket mom or dad saying, how'd you do on the math quiz? Do I need to talk to your teacher? You know, what's going on in the kindergarten, in the playground or the lunchroom, they never get the opportunity to figure those things out for themselves. And I would argue that those skills are more important throughout their lifespan than the skills of arithmetic. If you think about it that how to interact with humans, the so called soft skills are the things that they will be using all their lives. So let's look at smartphones and say, what do they help? What do they hurt? And let's think about the prime directive, if you will, of school and see whether it supports it.
- [39:41]
A
So interesting having parents not text or communicate too much with it over cell phones with their kids, even though kids are texters because like saving those conversations for the dinner table when they're processing and like about how their day was and highs and lows and roses and thorns and then letting them navigate and digest it and learn how to reflect on their, think about their, how their class went themselves or how the playground was themselves. And it's always interesting. I was like, how do we raise, raise really healthy adults, right? And so like what skills are you giving them so that they can navigate adulthood without you? And so by constantly interrupting them and buzzing them with a question or a text, that's. I mean my kids don't have phones yet, but I can imagine that's speaking with my husband this morning about like bumper parenting. Does it actually be you want to be a bumper parent but not be and just be helping them, but not actually be clearing the path for them all times or zoning in and helicoptering with a text or an interruption and whatnot. So that's super interesting. Okay, so for, for, for screening schools, that's thinking about just being very intentional about whether it's helping or hurting those two types of learning.
- [40:42]
B
Absolutely. And then they come home from school and the thing I tell the parents is the first thing you do, put some food in their mouths, their blood sugar is Low. Their energy is low. They're kind of feeling dragged down. Give them a snack and then get them outside or, you know, get them some physical exercise, some strenuous physical exercise, because they've been sitting on their rear ends all day for the most part.
- [41:04]
A
And that's nature, that's outdoor times, maybe some evening light, that sunset. That's like getting some fresh air. There's so many benefits.
- [41:11]
B
Hearing some burns and their friends are out there. Right. You know. Yeah. And. And so then. And then think through the time between. When they get done with that, you know, you have the dinner. You know, many kids have homework. Let's set aside homework time and then see what time is left for screens, allowing, of course, an hour of screen free time before sleep time.
- [41:36]
A
Right.
- [41:37]
B
The reason I talk about sleep time, not about bedtime, is that so many kids have screens with them at bedtime. And in fact, there is a whole school of media made for your kids to go to bed with, which is kind of ironic that we're going to have your kids stare into a blue light screen that suppresses their melatonin to help them get ready for sleep. But all that being said, you know, an hour before sleep time is precious. Time for talking, for reading, for just, you know, sitting in a bathtub and just, you know, really reconnecting with your body, with each other, et cetera. And so I think that this is the way you approach the day mindfully, as you say, bumper parents or a structured plan. Right. That doesn't mean it's locked in, it's set in stone, but it means it gives structure and the ability to expect and anticipate what's going to happen. It doesn't say, I'm keeping you from watching screens. It's also not saying I owe you X number of hours of screens each day, because that's the flip side of it is kids who have screen time limits feel that they are owed that
- [42:50]
A
then sometimes and allows for, you know, oh, you're on a. You're going on a road trip for part of that. Yep. Stare out the window and be bored. And for part of that, here's the screen and that like that. And we are not rigid about only 35 minutes and 40 seconds a day, you know, so, like allowing some. Some ease in that. And in your book, you talk about how when you say you can't have it or it's only for adults, kids want it more. And like we saw with tobacco, we see that with alcohol, like, when it's too restricted, it's more Desirable. So to not create this extra desire around the screens. That was super interesting in your book.
- [43:25]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, we can see screen use as part of a rich and diverse menu of experiences the kids have. Right. Because there are things you can do on screens you can't do with any other tool in our lives. So let's enjoy it, but let's also respect it as well as love it for what it can do for us.
- [43:46]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I love it. My daughter, my husband did an AI generated animation of her doing Jiu Jitsu. She just started Jiu Jitsu and she got her first stripe. And she's like doing that and winning competitions, you rocking it and losing and learning in those two old bronze. And then she's learning, I'm gonna get gold next time, mom. And I did and she did. And it just felt like I did because when she wins, I win, you know, like. But they generated this. This image of her and then printed it and she colored it and it was this like her as a superhero. And I thought, you know, that's a very cool way to teach her. Cutting a tack and give her some quick exposure, but then have it bring it back into the art room and have her drawing and coloring and tactile and all that. So that was like. I felt like a fun, creative example of that.
- [44:31]
B
And it's exp. It's using media and extending it into other kind of activities that enrich it and go forward and that. Actually, I don't know why I made this connection, but we'll go with it. One of the things that made me realize, and I've realized over the years that I've taken care of kids is I hate the term neurotypical. Neurotypical kids are. All that means is kids like me or kids like my kids are. And all it does is other kids. I genuinely think that we are all neurodiverse in so many different ways. Some people are good at jujitsu and can't hold a tune. Other people are musical geniuses and can't kick a soccer ball. That diversity actually enriches us. Us and is something that we can all be expanded by as opposed to fear or hate. And one of the things that I'm often asked is, what age should I give my kid a smartphone?
- [45:34]
A
Yeah.
- [45:36]
B
And there are groups out there that talk about at certain ages when they're able to handle a smartphone. No kid is the same at the same age. Every 13 year old is not alike. There are kids who are not ready for a smartphone at age 13, they're kids who are ready for one at age 10 and some that are not ready until they're 20.
- [46:00]
A
The parents already, I'm like, am I going to be ready at 13? I think I'll be ready when she.
- [46:03]
B
Absolutely.
- [46:04]
A
Does that count too?
- [46:06]
B
Like absolutely.
- [46:07]
A
When can I be a really good mentor? Maybe not until she's 16 and doing it well. Yeah.
- [46:12]
B
First you have to clean up your own act, right?
- [46:14]
A
No, I know. No, for sure. No, I'm working on, I'm dedicated to it. I'm doing a reset. Yes, I know.
- [46:22]
B
No, but I think that one of the things that I really as, as well intentioned as it is, I have problems with the idea of age appropriate screen media. And the two reasons I have problems with it are first the age thing, which we've already talked about, that all kids are the same age, are not the same.
- [46:41]
A
Right.
- [46:42]
B
But the word appropriate is a values laden word. And what's appropriate in California or Massachusetts and what's appropriate in Maine or in Florida or in Texas, they're all different. And let's move this away from the good and bad, the values laden thing, into the what is healthy and what is less healthy. And so what we talk about instead of age appropriateness is what is developmentally optimal. That doesn't exclude the neurodivergent kids, as they are called. Right. That doesn't exclude the kids who struggle with something because they have ADHD or they're on the autism spectrum. They have special skills of their own. And I think that we need to be really conscious of our own kids. And we have to have the confidence that we know our kids better than anyone on the face of the earth does. So instead of listening to somebody like me say at age 13, they can do it, listen to their own hearts and minds and say, you know what? My daughter needs a smartphone now for these reasons, my daughter has shown me that she's responsible, that she respects herself and others. And we're going to try it and we'll try it together. We will mentor its introduction, but we'll stay in touch and we'll work through it. And you know what, if she stumbles and there's a high likelihood she will, then we bring the guardrails in a little closer. We let her drive, but we bring the guardrails in. And as she shows she's able to handle it, you expand them a little bit. And not to risk, we're going to
- [48:26]
A
try this and we're going to see how it impacts you and impacts our family and Then we'll. Without being like you. You said that I could do it. I'm like this, this, right? This ship has sailed. It's like, no, let's. I mean, my daughter's a very strong negotiator. So I'm already, I'm like just, she's six, but I'm already preparing, you know, for sure, sure.
- [48:45]
B
And it's all about what works best now and what they do. I often talk about it like walking a dog, right. The dog wants to run ahead, you give them plenty of leash. But when the dog gets in trouble, get starts growling at another dog or
- [49:02]
A
a car is coming, right.
- [49:04]
B
You shorten the leash a little bit. Right. Not to restrict them, not to punish them or deny them something, but to keep them safe, to keep them healthy. And the same thing with kids. This is not about punishing them for being bad so much as by the rules or by what we are doing, the way we behave with them. We are helping them become the kind of humans they want to be and that we want to see them be.
- [49:34]
A
I love it. One question just while we're on this topic. I know, I'm like, you know, by the time my daughter is, you know, in years and years when she then has access to a smartphone or whatnot, the whole landscape will change. There'll be all new technology in those years. But one thing, you know, I hear friends talk about and people talk about is that one reason parents are so nervous about what's going on right now with screens at kind of the, the abyss that happens in social media and the unknown is that you don't know what's out there. But then also it's that people feel relieved. And in my generation, I'm like an elder millennial. I'm a geriatric millennial. And so, you know, I didn't have a smartphone and I didn't have a huge social media footprint. And I was relieved that I wasn't tweeting @15 because like 15 year old Nora, now 39 year old Nora, would disagree with 15 year old Nora. And I've changed. I've become so many different versions of myself. And if there was a digital footprint that would. I've gone through so many phases and versions in any given time and so that I get particularly, and I think I hear other people get nervous about your, not only the kid child's experience and how it affects their development and then the exposure that they can have, but then their digital footprint. Can you talk a little bit about that or what you're Thinking along those lines, just a little worry that I hear a lot out there.
- [50:58]
B
One of the things that I talk to parents about doing actively with their kids is to create online in this space. Why would I do that? Because it's to help them understand, both the parents and the kids understand that what they put online is going to go far, it's going to go fast, and it's going to be sticky and the edgier it is. And kids tend toward the edgy because that's what gets people's attention, too.
- [51:28]
A
So then they get the feedback and the likes and the stars. Yep.
- [51:31]
B
You got absolutely. Is that that will be somewhere. Somewhere, you know, and it'll end up in their college admissions folder or in their employment folder in the future. Now, kids can't think that far forward. They can't think past the weekend, let alone getting into college or getting a job. So what I actually advise them to do is not to put anything online that grandma couldn't see, wouldn't see that they don't want Grandma to see.
- [51:59]
A
Because like you kind of said, you know, just have the monitoring on there. Pretend grandma is monitoring everything and that grandma will find everything. And then. That's a good. That's a good.
- [52:08]
B
Yeah. The grandma rule really works because, you know, while parents don't have a problem pissing off their parents, they kind of are testing those limits all the time in one way or another. Grandma, they want to love and respect them unconditionally. And so I just say, don't put anything there. Grandma can't see, because she can. Right?
- [52:28]
A
I love this grandma role. I love that someone I know is just at TED and there was someone talking about building your brand at ted. I didn't go this year. I've gone every year. I love TED because you learn all these concepts and whatnot. They were talking about building your own brand. And it's interesting to think about that and starting to teach youth and mentor them on your digital identity and presence. And so, yeah, you do want to think about your kind of presence. What are the. If you are going to be a creator. And when you said be a creator with your child made me very nervous, but I could see why, because you're mentoring and you're learning together and you're having them be intentional about what is your online present? What types of things will you reshare? What types of things? Even when you, like there's a footprint, who are you surrounding yourself with on the Internet and kind of what is your digital presence and helping kids think through Their, their personal brand. What are the things that they care about? You know, that I care about animals, you know, whatever. I care about this sport that I'm doing or this hobby or the outdoor backpacking, whatever it is that the kids really care about, but just helping them, having them think through strategically. Not just what wouldn't grandma want to see, but how do you show up and who are you and what are your value, helping your kid develop their digital values system as well, but also
- [53:44]
B
not to be so self conscious about it.
- [53:47]
A
Okay.
- [53:47]
B
That you know, it's all about intentionally building your brand. Right, right.
- [53:53]
A
We're not trying to create little marketers. Yeah, yeah.
- [53:55]
B
What seven year old is building a brand, right?
- [53:58]
A
No, no, I just, yeah, no, you
- [54:00]
B
know what I'm saying though is I think that it, I just think it's more.
- [54:06]
A
There are those like YouTube, you know, but, but yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [54:09]
B
Yeah.
- [54:09]
A
But you know what they want to be is an influencer right now in high school. High school and in college.
- [54:14]
B
Yeah. Oh absolutely.
- [54:15]
A
I do think kids are thinking about who am I on the Internet. Even though they're not like what brand? And we don't want to make kids to, you know, we're not trying to be like what I love about your messages, don't freak out parents and don't freak out kids about media and digital. It's here and it's here to stay and we need to live with it and move with it. You were saying though, about, about that seven year old or don't you're giving guidance there?
- [54:36]
B
Well, I want them to, I also want them to enjoy life. I want them to giggle. I want them to be silly. I want them not to worry about, you know, whatever I'm doing, whether, you know, 10 years from now, someone will come back to harm me. I think it's more about really being present within oneself and being, you know, being a seven year old. When you're a seven year old.
- [55:03]
A
Yeah.
- [55:04]
B
Not worrying about what, you know, 39 year old me is going to look back at and say, oh my God, that's why I don't want her on
- [55:10]
A
the Internet for a while. Because I'm like, just be a kid. Like I want her to have this, like just be, just enjoy and live and move and yeah, yeah.
- [55:19]
B
And, and, and interestingly, when I was actually in my pediatric training with actually the pediatrician who was the first one who really identified and developed a clinical response to child abuse, oddly enough, taught me that what every child needs is someone who's just crazy about them. Just the way they are. Right? Just the way they are. Yes. They will be silly. They will make mistakes, and we all make mistakes. And it's really not a matter of avoiding mistakes so much as it's a matter of healing those mistakes. Not just correcting them, but healing them for both yourself and for the person who may have been harmed
- [56:07]
A
and creating a space where kids can
- [56:11]
B
be kids and that.
- [56:13]
A
Where they feel. Where they can be kids. Yeah, exactly. And where they can just feel like, I'm loved for all the different parts of who I am, you know, all the different dynamic parts of me as a kid. And I am funny and I can be serious and I can't, you know, and just. I love that of just like, really the. The importance of families adoring young ones for who they are.
- [56:34]
B
Right. And I can play Grand Theft Auto even though it makes my mother's skin crawl. Right.
- [56:40]
A
I was actually good at gta, so I don't know what that means about me, but I'm like. I was like, oh, that's interesting.
- [56:46]
B
Right? But. But that's exactly what your children need to say, because here's the other thing that happens when we push back against. Reiterates, that forbidden fruit thing. It makes it that much more attractive. And one of the things that kids will tell me is, you know what? It gets boring after a while. All these games get boring because, you know, they're. They're built on algorithms that the kids figure out and so allow them to get over that sort of frisson of feeling, you know, like I'm being bad, I'm being, you know, outrageous, whatever, and understand, you know, and value their time and attention that they're giving to this game, for example, and say, you know, what do I really do? I really want to spend my time doing this.
- [57:35]
A
Right. And give them other options and other opportunities and absolutely want to go on that walk with you or do that project with you, or we have be bored with you. Yeah, I love it. Well, so just, I guess in closing, I want to. I want to hear a little bit like, what are you reading right now? What are you thinking about? What new concepts are you kind of exploring in this field?
- [57:59]
B
I'm doing a lot of work, really thinking about this idea of us all being neurodiverse in fascinating and interesting ways. In fact, one of the really interesting things that's coming out of the rapidly evolving AI situation is that young people on the autism spectrum actually are incredibly talented at AI coding at really, because their minds work very similar to that. And I think that we have to look at autism not as a disability, but as a different ability. And as you know. And autism is just one example of that.
- [58:43]
A
You know, there are so many. Yeah. I was hearing Richard Branson speak in New York about dyslexia and how it helped him think differently.
- [58:52]
B
Absolutely. And you know, I see adhd. I take care of lots of kids with adhd. I see it as a normal variant, not as an abnormality. And the reason for that is think about us. Many generations ago, as hunter gatherers, we crawled out of the cave in the morning in search of food and to not become someone else's food. Right. And so that level of distractibility, that level of hypervigilance is adaptive. And that allowed them to pass those skills down. Those, you know, genetic and epigenetic traits were passed down generation after generation until one generation gets told, sit down, shut up and listen to that person in the front of the classroom. And they go, hey, look at the bird. Right.
- [59:44]
A
Yeah.
- [59:45]
B
Right. And so what was adaptive is now maladaptive, not because the kid is abnormal, but because we've changed the environment. And so I think that we have to take a step back and say, first of all, to look at the whole screen issue not as vectors of help or harm, but as the environment in which these kids are growing up. It's like the air they breathe, you know, and yes, we can work to make that air more healthy, but we also have to help them learn to breathe in healthy ways right now. And one of the worries I have is with all the attention and energy that's being put to, let's get legislation, let's protect the poor, innocent children, you know, that's, you know, whatever, you know, litigate and force people into change. These things take a lot of time, they take a lot of resources, a lot of energy. And during this whole time, kids are growing up without any guidance, without any help, and we have to build in them the ability to thrive. And so I will say to parents who want software to protect their kids online, I say that software sits between your kids ears. Build that protection in, help them to be digitally literate. And the way you do that is you give them digital tools, you teach them digital tools, you have them create on digital tools, you have them make mistakes on digital tools and correct them
- [61:20]
A
and be that mentor and be that guide.
- [61:22]
B
Yeah, right. And enrich that software in their head.
- [61:26]
A
Are there any meta things? If you had a magic wand, though, if it's not, if you don't think it is like totally going to scream the schools. And, and you know, sometimes I as a mom, I'm like, ooh, screen the school sound in some, in some ways like our phone lockers. That sounds really enticing to me and I could see the real positivity around that. But I am curious, like, if you had a magic wand, what are some kind of, of national initiatives that you think could really help boost kids resilience when it comes to being able to navigate media and screens?
- [62:04]
B
Universal summer camp without electronics.
- [62:07]
A
Whoa. Summers. Summers. It's like an operation summers. And it's like you would have. Okay, tell me more about this. Yeah, for summer camp corps. And it's like absolutely. All the college camp. Every, all of America goes to camp. And it's also a child care solution. I like this, like, it's like, oh, like that because you know, there's a care gap for parents in the summer. I haven't had to do summer camp yet or figure out summer, but whoa, I'm about to. And it's daunting. So it's win win for parents and students. I lucky.
- [62:35]
B
What's really, what's, what's really interesting about this is that summer camp, you know, offers an opportunity for not only not having all those screens stimulating, but having all these cool things and new people to do that.
- [62:53]
A
Horseback riding. Yeah.
- [62:57]
B
And they're all a little dangerous, you know, and you know, would make mom nervous, which is kind of scary.
- [63:03]
A
You're by yourself, you're going, yeah, absolutely.
- [63:06]
B
Yeah. No, and, and you know, like, for example, even during the school year for these kids who are heavy duty gamers, what else do I do? I urge them to take up parkour, you know, in the city. Right. You know, and I say, my mom will never let me do that. I said, yeah, but your mom lets you, you know, play Fortnite for 16 hours.
- [63:26]
A
Yeah.
- [63:26]
B
How about, you know. Right.
- [63:29]
A
At least out you're out there. You know what I mean?
- [63:31]
B
Like, yeah, I would rather, I would rather a child break their leg than break their spirit. And we could. I, I can fix a broken leg. I'm not sure I can always fix a broken spirit. And so I think that we have to really be conscious of how precious these years are in terms of shaping not just the kid who is now, but the adult who they will be in the future. Not just for themselves, but for all around them. And I think we're at a, a difficult time in our world right now where it's very Machiavellian. It's all about surviving. It's all about beating the other guy. And it's not about a consciousness that we're all in this together. We all have different skills to bear. We also have different limitations that we can compensate for each other with. But it requires a level of trust and love for each other, for humanity writ large to make that work. Is that naive? Maybe. But otherwise, what are we going to work for? Right, here's. Here's my great fantasy. You look for my magic wand.
- [64:53]
A
Yes.
- [64:54]
B
I think the. The biggest structural problem with social media right now for kids is that they use it the way that the corporations do. They use it to market themselves to the world, to show that, you know, the cool vacation I went on, or my dad's new sports car, my hot new boyfriend, and other kids come to it seeking connection, wanting to, you know, get, you know, make friends and belong, and they see that everyone is happier than they are, is, you know, more fulfilled than they are, is richer, is prettier, is thinner, whatever. Right. And projecting.
- [65:36]
A
Everyone's projecting. There are all these projections of people, and they're in their best light. Yep.
- [65:41]
B
Brand building. They're brand building right there.
- [65:44]
A
Brands of people. There are versions of people. There's like a image of people that's not the full human image.
- [65:52]
B
Absolutely. And so in the Facebook papers hearing in Congress, Senator Blumenthal asked the meta representative, can't you stop making finstas Now? Finstas are fake Instagram accounts that kids make that their parents don't have access to, but they're for their closest friends and they is, you know, they're the ones where they talk about who they have a crush on and who upset them and all the various things that happen. I think finstas are the future of good social media because they're authentic. They're not branding themselves.
- [66:33]
A
That's interesting. It's like you're actually your closest friends, and it's like.
- [66:37]
B
Right.
- [66:37]
A
As a. As a platform for conversation and authenticity.
- [66:43]
B
Absolutely. And so my fantasy is that someday there will be a kid in the equivalent of Ukraine and a kid in the equivalent of Russia at that time who are on social media with each other authentically. And their respective leaders say, that is the enemy. Take up arms and. I'm sorry, did we lose you?
- [67:07]
A
No, no, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
- [67:09]
B
Okay. So my. My fantasy is that there will be a kid in the equivalent of Ukraine, a kid in the equivalent of Russia that are authentically on social media with each other. Their respective leaders will say, take up arms against the enemy. And the kid will say, I don't know you as well as I know this kid, that is not my enemy. I think that if we can learn to use social media right, it can be an instrument of peace.
- [67:37]
A
Yes. I love it. And of connection.
- [67:41]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And just being authentic.
- [67:44]
A
Thank you. You are the doctor of hope, and I am so thankful to be in conversation with you.