A former Meta executive characterizes company leadership as "careless" in new memoir

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: "Careless People" by Sarah Wynn Williams – Episode Summary

Release Date: March 24, 2025

NPR's Book of the Day, hosted by NPR, delves into today’s most compelling books in a concise, engaging format. In the episode titled "A former Meta executive characterizes company leadership as 'careless' in new memoir," host Steve Inskeep interviews Sarah Wynn Williams, a former executive at Meta (formerly Facebook). Williams shares insights from her memoir, "Careless People," revealing inner workings of Meta and critiquing its leadership and policies.

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Introduction to Sarah Wynn Williams and Her Memoir

The episode begins with Andrew Limbong introducing Sarah Wynn Williams, highlighting that Meta's higher-ups have attempted to silence her by restricting the promotion of her memoir. Despite these efforts, Williams previously engaged in an interview with NPR's Steve Inskeep, which forms the core of this episode.

Why "Careless People"?

Sarah Wynn Williams titles her memoir "Careless People" to encapsulate her perception of Meta’s leadership:

[01:45] Sarah Wynn Williams: "Because it's true."

She elaborates that Meta leadership exhibited carelessness both in minor and significant aspects, from restricting employees’ ability to use Meta platforms personally, to collaborating with authoritarian regimes like the Chinese Communist Party to develop censorship tools.

Meta's Approach to Censorship and Authoritarianism

Williams provides insider details on Meta’s strategies to navigate censorship, particularly in authoritarian contexts:

[01:47] Sarah Wynn Williams: "In the smallest and biggest ways. Little things. Like how many people who worked at the social media company that wouldn't let their own children on the service through to really big things like working with the Chinese Communist Party to build a censorship tool to meet their specifications."

She discusses Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg's worldview, likening it to a strategic board game:

[03:20] Sarah Wynn Williams: "He sort of looks at the world as if it's a board game, like a game of Risk, and it's about occupying every territory, building an empire. Those are the things that concern him, not the sort of real world impact of what that means."

Efforts to Enter the Chinese Market

The conversation delves into Meta's attempts to penetrate the Chinese market, a significant challenge given China's strict internet regulations:

[03:34] Steve Inskeep: "I'm interested by that analogy because you quote a memo that Mark Zuckerberg writes, I believe in 2014, in which he essentially says, we've got to get China or we will retreat in the world. It does sound a little bit like, as you say, a game of risk, the board game where you're going for world domination."

Williams explains that Meta considered using sensitive user data from Hong Kong as leverage to negotiate entry into China:

[04:11] Sarah Wynn Williams: "The suggestion was that as part of the negotiations for the company to enter into China, the data of users in Hong Kong could be put in play."

She also details the development of censorship tools that monitored and controlled viral content in regions like Hong Kong and Taiwan:

[04:37] Sarah Wynn Williams: "The censorship tool was developed, which included monitoring content that went particularly viral. So virality counters were installed on viral content both in Hong Kong and also in Taiwan. Any content that got more than 10,000 views would automatically be sent to the censorship editorial body that would review that content."

Impact on the 2016 U.S. Presidential Election

Williams recounts Meta's involvement in the 2016 U.S. election, highlighting ethical concerns:

[05:52] Steve Inskeep: "That became clear to her in 2016, the year of Donald Trump's first election. Facebook embedded a team in the Trump campaign to help deploy campaign ads, a service his opponent Hillary Clinton had been offered and declined."

She describes Zuckerberg's initial resistance and eventual realization of Meta's influence on the election outcome:

[06:10] Sarah Wynn Williams: "Initially, he was quite frustrated at the suggestion that Facebook had had anything to do with the win... over time, he came to see the way that the company had had impact and sort of ruminate on what that meant."

Zuckerberg’s Contemplation of Political Power

Following the election, Zuckerberg contemplated a more direct role in politics, indicating the blurring lines between tech leadership and political ambition:

[06:55] Sarah Wynn Williams: "He started to say, oh, I think I should get out into some of these states. Iowa, New Hampshire. He started naming all these swing states."

Allegations of Inappropriate Conduct and Firing

Williams alleges misconduct by Meta executives, specifically Joel Kaplan and Sheryl Sandberg, leading to her dismissal in 2017:

[07:04] Steve Inskeep: "Sarah Wynne Williams was on her way out. Her memoir alleges inappropriate conduct by her boss, Joel Kaplan, and by top executive Sheryl Sandberg. Wynne Williams complained to the company about Kaplan, but Facebook fired her in 2017."

Meta, however, defends its actions, citing poor performance and dismissing her harassment claims as unfounded and outdated.

Legal Actions and Current Relevance

The episode touches on Meta's recent legal actions against Williams, enforcing a non-disparagement clause and halting her book promotion:

[07:58] Steve Inskeep: "This may be the last you hear for a while from Sarah Wynn Williams. After our interview, Meta gained a temporary injunction from an arbitrator because she had signed a non-disparagement clause with the company. She's been told to stop promoting her book, which is called Careless People."

Williams emphasizes the importance of her memoir in understanding the consolidation of power between tech CEOs and political leaders:

[07:46] Sarah Wynn Williams: "The moment that we're in now, where tech CEOs and political leaders are joining forces and combining their power and influence. It's the sort of moment that means we need to understand what's really been going on."

Conclusion

The episode underscores the significance of Williams' revelations about Meta's internal practices and leadership, especially in the context of global influence and political dynamics. Her memoir, despite Meta's attempts to suppress it, offers a critical perspective on the intersection of technology, power, and governance.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Wynn Williams [03:20]: "He sort of looks at the world as if it's a board game, like a game of Risk, and it's about occupying every territory, building an empire."

• Steve Inskeep [04:31]: "This was a decade ago when Hong Kong had more freedoms and Facebook was available as it still is."

• Sarah Wynn Williams [07:46]: "The moment that we're in now, where tech CEOs and political leaders are joining forces and combining their power and influence."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Sarah Wynn Williams' interview on NPR's Book of the Day, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the key discussions surrounding her memoir and her critique of Meta's corporate practices.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. This next interview is with someone that the people at Meta, Facebook's parent company, do not want you to hear from. It's with Sarah Wynn Williams, a former executive at Meta who's out with a memoir about her time at the company. It's titled Careless People. And the higher ups at Meta have successfully stopped Wynne Williams from promoting the book for the moment anyway, but not before she talked to NPR's Steve Inskeep. And in this conversation they get into the inner workings of the company. Wynne Williams observations on how it dealt with censorship and authoritarian regimes during her time there and how Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg viewed the world like a board game. That's ahead.

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[Steve Inskeep]

The social media company Meta gained an injunction against a former employee this week. She is now banned from discussing her criticism of the company. But before that injunction, Sarah Wynn Williams recorded an interview with npr. So we will play that conversation. Wynn Williams wrote a memoir of working with company leaders, including Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg. Why do you call the book Careless People?

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

Because it's true.

[Steve Inskeep]

In what way are they careless?

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

In the smallest and biggest ways. Little things. Like how many people who worked at the social media company that wouldn't let their own children on the service through to really big things like working with the Chinese Communist Party to build a censorship tool to meet their specifications.

[Steve Inskeep]

It's well known that Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg desperately tried to gain access to China. What Sarah Wynn Williams adds is details from a former insider. She quotes from what she says are internal email and describes her revulsion at her employer, even though she once was obsessed with joining the company. Wynne Williams was a diplomat from New Zealand who was working at the United nations when she began cold calling Facebook in search of a job.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

I thought it was historic. I thought it was this world changing technology. But I could just see how powerful it would be if everybody was in the same place on The Internet.

[Steve Inskeep]

At the same time, I'm fascinated that you were working for a global institution, the United nations, and you concluded that essentially all of the droning on and discussion of resolutions at the United nations was pointless, but that this other global institution could actually make a difference.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

I still believe that.

[Steve Inskeep]

In 2011, she talked her way into a position focused on global public policy. She met Zuckerberg, who she describes as aggressively uninterested in global public policy. She tells of cringe worthy efforts to introduce the CEO to world leaders. And she contends that for Zuckerberg, the world and its people were an abstraction.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

He sort of looks at the world as if it's a board game, like a game of Risk, and it's about occupying every territory, building an empire. Those are the things that concern him, not the sort of real world impact of what that means.

[Steve Inskeep]

I'm interested by that analogy because you quote a memo that Mark Zuckerberg writes, I believe in 2014, in which he essentially says, we've got to get China or we will retreat in the world. It does sound a little bit like, as you say, a game of risk, the board game where you're going for world domination.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

Exactly that. But it's important actually to come back to now because he's not wrong on that.

[Steve Inskeep]

China matters to many US firms with its 1.4 billion consumers, Zuckerberg learned Mandarin and eventually met China's president and win. Williams says Facebook at least considered taking extreme measures to meet the demands of an authoritarian state.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

The suggestion was that as part of the negotiations for the company to enter into China, the data of users in Hong Kong could be put in play.

[Steve Inskeep]

This was a decade ago when Hong Kong had more freedoms and Facebook was available as it still is. And Facebook collected data that the Beijing government would want.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

That appeared to be one of the possible negotiating chips that matter thought it was holding.

[Steve Inskeep]

How far did that idea get?

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

I can't speak to it exactly, but I do know that the censorship tool was developed, which included monitoring content that went particularly viral. So virality counters were installed on viral content both in Hong Kong and also in Taiwan. Any content that got more than 10,000 views would automatically be sent to the censorship editorial body that would review that content.

[Steve Inskeep]

Are you saying that the idea was to make Facebook a little bit like WeChat? It's the Internet, it's free, except it's not free. It's filtered by the government.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

Exactly.

[Steve Inskeep]

It seems to me that Facebook ultimately did not meet whatever China's demands were. Facebook is still banned for the most part in China. Right.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

It's still an $18 billion market for.

[Steve Inskeep]

Meta, though Facebook is blocked. The company does business selling ads to Chinese companies, which promote products in the US and elsewhere. Gradually, Wynne Williams concluded the company did not share her values.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

It wasn't a lightning bolt. It was sort of a steady drip, drip, drip. And it just became clear to me that there was this lethal carelessness, she says.

[Steve Inskeep]

That became clear to her in 2016, the year of Donald Trump's first election. Facebook embedded a team in the Trump campaign to help deploy campaign ads, a service his opponent Hillary Clinton had been offered and declined. When Trump unexpectedly won, Wyn Williams says it made Zuckerberg uncomfortable.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

Initially, he was quite frustrated at the suggestion that Facebook had had anything to do with the win. Soon after that, we were on a flight and members of his team walked him through piece by piece, the way that the company had impacted the election and at first he was very resistant to the idea, which on one level, when you run a company that is premised on the basis of being able to influence people to change the brand of toothpaste they prefer is a bit surprising. But over time, he came to see the way that the company had had impact and sort of ruminate on what that meant.

[Steve Inskeep]

You say he came to his own dark conclusions from that. What were his dark conclusions?

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

He started to say, oh, I think I should get out into some of these states. Iowa, New Hampshire. He started naming all these swing states.

[Steve Inskeep]

By visiting early primary states. He seemed to be exploring a run for president, although he never did. Sarah Wynne Williams was on her way out. Her memoir alleges inappropriate conduct by her boss, Joel Kaplan, and by top executive Sheryl Sandberg. Wynn Williams complained to the company about Kaplan, but Facebook fired her in 2017. This week, the company said she was fired for poor performance and that their investigation at the time found she made misleading and unfounded allegations of harassment. Meta also says her claims about China are old news. Wynn Williams argues her book is relevant and Zuckerberg showed why when he turned up on the presidential inaugural stage in January.

[Sarah Wynn Williams]

The moment that we're in now, where tech CEOs and political leaders are joining forces and combining their power and influence. It's the sort of moment that means we need to understand what's really been going on.

[Steve Inskeep]

This may be the last you hear for a while from Sarah Wynn Williams. After our interview, Meta gained a temporary injunction from an arbitrator because she had signed a non disparagement clause with the company. She's been told to stop promoting her book, which is called Careless People. We should note that Meta is a financial supporter of npr. Obviously we cover them like any other company.

[NPR Sponsor]

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