An early biography paints Pope Francis as 'The Great Reformer' of the Catholic Church

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: An Early Biography Paints Pope Francis as 'The Great Reformer' of the Catholic Church

Episode Release Date: April 22, 2025
Host: Andrew Limbong
Guest Author: Austin Ivory
Book Discussed: The Great Francis and the Making of a Radical Pope by Austin Ivory

---

Introduction: Pope Francis’ Sudden Impact

In the April 22, 2025, episode of NPR's Book of the Day, host Andrew Limbong delves into the transformative papacy of Pope Francis through the lens of Austin Ivory's biography, The Great Francis and the Making of a Radical Pope. Limbong opens the discussion by highlighting the swift and profound changes Pope Francis instituted within the Catholic Church, characterizing him as a "radical figure" and "change agent." The episode sets the stage by referencing Pope Francis' untimely death on a recent Monday, underscoring the lasting impact of his leadership.

Notable Quote:

“He didn't ease into his tenure as a pope on the world stage. It seemed like he came out swinging.”
— Andrew Limbong [00:02]

---

Pope Francis’ Reformation of the Catholic Church

Austin Ivory presents Pope Francis not merely as a leader who addresses contentious issues like homosexuality and abortion, but as a pioneer who redefined the papal approach to engaging with everyday believers. Ivory emphasizes that Francis' unique contribution lies in how he interacts with people, making ordinary individuals the focal point of his ministry.

Notable Quote:

“The difference between him, I think, and other popes is that he frequently stops and makes the person that he's talking to the protagonist.”
— Austin Ivory [01:46]

---

Focus on Ordinary People

Ivory contrasts Pope Francis' approachable demeanor with that of his predecessors. While Pope Benedict was perceived as reserved and John Paul II as an imperial figure capable of captivating large crowds, Francis introduces a new model of papal leadership centered on ordinary individuals. This shift fosters a more relatable and inclusive image of the Church.

Notable Quote:

“That's a new style of pope, a new way of being pope among the people.”
— Austin Ivory [01:46]

---

Sensitivity to Poverty and Liberation Theology

As the first pope from the New World, Francis brings a heightened awareness of poverty and vulnerability to the Vatican. Ivory attributes Francis' radicalism to his roots in Latin American liberation theology, which emphasizes the Church's role in advocating for the marginalized and oppressed. By identifying with the "existential margins," Francis aims to position the Church within the realities of those living in poverty, particularly in Latin America's shanty towns.

Notable Quote:

“He's the first Pope really to come out of that context where poverty is dominant.”
— Austin Ivory [02:24]

---

Controversy During Argentina’s Dirty War

The episode addresses the controversies surrounding Francis' past in Argentina during the Dirty War of the 1970s and 1980s. Accusations of complicity and criticism from human rights activists are discussed, with Ivory providing context for Francis' cautious approach during that tumultuous period. Francis prioritized protecting Jesuits and aiding victims over opposing the regime publicly, a strategy that, according to Ivory, effectively safeguarded lives and offered sanctuary to those fleeing persecution.

Notable Quote:

“Not one Jesuit lost his life and he did protect, we now know, and sheltered dozens of people who were fleeing the dictatorship.”
— Austin Ivory [03:37]

---

Doctrinal Consistency vs. Evangelization

Austin Ivory addresses perceptions that Pope Francis' progressive statements indicate a shift in Catholic doctrine. He clarifies that Francis maintains orthodox positions on core teachings while simultaneously promoting a message of mercy and forgiveness. This dual approach aims to attract individuals to the Church through compassion before guiding them towards traditional moral teachings.

Notable Quote:

“On all the core Catholic teachings, he is an absolutely straight down the line orthodox Catholic.”
— Austin Ivory [04:39]

Supporting Quote:

“Conversion is when somebody first experiences the love and mercy and forgiveness of God and then having assimilated that then... chooses the Christian life.”
— Austin Ivory [04:39]

---

Lasting Impact and Future of His Reforms

When questioned about the urgency of labeling Francis a "radical reformer" after just over a year as pope, Ivory expresses confidence that history will recognize Francis as a monumental figure in Church reform. He highlights the irreversible governance changes initiated by Francis, which are poised to reshape the Catholic Church for decades. Ivory believes that subsequent popes will continue to implement and build upon these foundational reforms, ensuring their enduring legacy.

Notable Quote:

“I'm very confident that history will judge Pope Francis to be one of the great church reformers...”
— Austin Ivory [06:19]

---

Conclusion: A Transformative Papacy

The episode concludes with the affirmation that Pope Francis has already left an indelible mark on the Catholic Church through his reformative actions and compassionate leadership. Austin Ivory's biography serves as a testament to Francis' role as a catalyst for change, ensuring that his vision and reforms will influence the Church long after his tenure.

Closing Quote:

“...the next papacies will implement the reforms that he has begun.”
— Austin Ivory [06:19]

---

This detailed exploration of The Great Francis and the Making of a Radical Pope offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of Pope Francis' profound influence on the Catholic Church. Through Austin Ivory's insightful analysis, the episode encapsulates the essence of Francis' reformative spirit and his enduring legacy as a transformative leader.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. As you've probably heard, Pope Francis died Monday. He was a bit of a radical figure, a change agent within the Catholic Church. What's interesting is that wasn't a slow development. He didn't ease into his tenure as a pope on the world stage. It seemed like he came out swinging. Case in point, writer Austin Ivory came out with his biography of Pope Francis in 2014, a little over a year into Francis tenure. The book is called the Great Francis and the Making of a Radical Pope. Ivory spoke with NPR's Eric Westervelt back then, and the interview is an interesting snapshot of how drastically Pope Francis changed the perception of the Catholic Church. That's coming up.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month, shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 dollars for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required, new customer offer for first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Pew Charitable Trusts sharing about the state of housing in America on the after the Fact podcast available at pewtrusts.org afterthefact alright, before we get.

[Andrew Limbong]

Into this interview, I just want to set it up a bit. It's 2014, and Pope Francis has been pope for a year and he was already talking about homosexuality and abortion. But writer Austin Ivory argues that the thing that made Pope Francis different from other popes wasn't his tendency to weigh in on hot button topics, but how he spoke to regular people.

[Austin Ivory]

The difference between him, I think, and other popes is that he frequently stops and makes the person that he's talking to the protagonist. So suddenly the focus really is on ordinary people, the people that he's talking to. And I draw the contrast between that and, say Pope Benedict was very shy, so he would withdraw from people. John Paul ii, of course, was like a great emperor. He could hold great crowds in thrall. So I think this is a new style of pope, a new way of being pope among the people. And that is, as it were, to make the ordinary people the protagonist and.

[Eric Westervelt]

Not just among the people. I mean, you suggest he's got a new way of sort of walking the talk about the dispossessed, perhaps in a way recent popes have not.

[Austin Ivory]

Yeah, I mean I think he's. He's the first Pope to come, of course, from the New World. He's the first Pope really to come out of that context where poverty is dominant. Now, that's a very different kind of context from which popes have traditionally come. That gives him a sensitivity to poverty. It gives him a sensitivity to need and to vulnerability. And from the very beginning, therefore, he's identified with and used the language of what he calls the existential margins, the existential peripheries, as he calls them. Now, existential peripheries is often, obviously, are places of pain and suffering, but it also has a kind of concrete sense in Latin America as being the shanty towns that encircle the cities. So this is the place he wants the Church to be seen in, to identify with, to speak from, to evangelize from. That's what also makes him a radical in that Latin American liberation theology tradition.

[Eric Westervelt]

His time in Argentina was not without controversy. He's been accused by some human rights activists for complicity in the Argentine dictatorship and the so called Dirty war of the 70s and early 80s. Francis tried to shelter Jesuits, but the left attacked him for not speaking out. Why didn't he speak out more?

[Austin Ivory]

Well, he didn't speak out because speaking out would have contradicted his two objectives during the Dirty war, which were objectives, in fact, given him from Rome. One was to protect the Jesuits from the regime, and the second was that he should help the victims of the dictatorship. And of course, he couldn't fulfill either of those objectives if he took a position of opposition to the regime, which anyway wouldn't have resulted in anything because anybody who did speak out against the regime was quickly silenced or exiled. So those were his two objectives and he pulled it off to a remarkable extent. Not one Jesuit lost his life and he did protect, we now know, and sheltered dozens of people who were fleeing the dictatorship.

[Eric Westervelt]

I'm speaking with Austin Ivory. His new book is the Great Reformer Francis and the Making of a Radical Pope. He's made some comments that seem to bolster liberals. He said Jesus had redeemed everyone, including atheists. He said the Church spends too much time talking about abortion and gay marriage. But you write that his comments should not be misinterpreted as doctrinal flexibility.

[Austin Ivory]

I feel very strongly that he's been consistently misjudged by one group of Catholics and also, of course, by certain parts of the liberal media which are trying to paint him. They know he's shaking things up, which he is, but they mistake that for a kind of attempt to change doctrine. I mean, on all the core Catholic teachings, he is a absolutely straight down the line orthodox Catholic, but he is also an evangelizer and a missionary. And his observation, the famous observation that we shouldn't bang on too much about abortion and those other issues, his point is not that abortion isn't wrong. I can cite you many speeches in which he gives searing denunciations of abortion. It's that he says it is not enough for people to look at the Catholic Church and say, yes, that's what the Church stands for. What's missing from the picture, he says, is the merciful face of Christ, the Church that heals the wounds, that raises people up, that nurtures them, that forgives them. And so what he's trying to do is to say, actually that's the face of the Church that needs to be presented. Now, this isn't a PR exercise. What he's actually saying is that people need to experience that before they are ready to accept the rest of it. So what is conversion? Conversion is when somebody first experiences the love and mercy and forgiveness of God and then having assimilated that then, as it were, chooses the Christian life, chooses the moral life, and so on. But you can't go to the second without the first.

[Eric Westervelt]

Austin, in both tone and title, you call Francis a radical reformer. But he's only been Pope for a little over a year. Isn't that a bit premature? What has he really reformed in terms of the way the Vatican and worldwide Catholicism are run?

[Austin Ivory]

I'm very confident that history will judge Pope Francis to be one of the great church reformers, even if his papacy comes to a close within the next couple of years for reasons of age or infirmity. And I'm convinced of that because he has already done and said enough to have turned round so many things in the church. And he's put in train reforms of governance which I think are irreversible and which are at the moment transforming the church and will actually transform the church for many years to come. So I'm convinced actually that the next papacies will be papacies that actually implement the reforms that he has begun.

[Eric Westervelt]

That's Austin Ivory. His new book is the Great Francis and the Making of a Radical Pope. Austin, thanks for coming in.

[Austin Ivory]

Thank you.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Schwab at Schwab. How you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own, plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

This message comes from Thrive Market. The food industry is a multibillion dollar industry, but not everything on the shelf is made with your health in mind. At Thrive Market, they go beyond the standards, curating the highest quality products for you and your family while focusing on organic first and restricting more than 1,000 harmful ingredients, all shipped at your door. Shop at a grocery store that actually cares for your [e-mail] podcast for 30% off your first order plus a $60 free gift.