← NPR's Book of the Day
NPR's Book of the Day
Books We’ve Loved: Jane Austen’s Pride & Prejudice, a blueprint to the modern romance
00:35:35
Loading summary
Transcript202 lines
- [00:01]
A
You're listening to books we've loved from npr.
- [00:03]
B
Yes. You're still listening to the Book of the Day feed.
- [00:07]
A
Yeah. We're usually giving you some of the latest releases, but we're gonna be spending the next couple weeks rereading old favorite.
- [00:15]
B
Books and tell you why they still matter today.
- [00:18]
A
Yeah, we're making timeless books timely again.
- [00:22]
B
Now, I'm B.A. parker. I'm one of the hosts of NPR's Code Switch.
- [00:26]
A
And if you're a regular listener to this feed, you've probably heard me. I'm Andrew Limbong.
- [00:30]
B
And.
- [00:30]
A
And I am very excited to be hanging out with you, Parker, and talk about some of our favorite books.
- [00:35]
B
Thanks. Me, too. And on our first episode, we get to speak to one of our great colleagues here at npr, Pop Culture Happy Hours, Linda Holmes. Hey, Linda.
- [00:47]
C
Oh, I'm so excited to be here, you guys. I'm so excited.
- [00:49]
A
Wow. We are about to enter a world I'm relatively new to, to not tease this out anymore. We are talking about Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. It's a big one.
- [00:59]
C
Yeah, it's a big one.
- [01:01]
A
This is a doozy.
- [01:02]
C
It looms large in many minds. I'll just put it down 100%.
- [01:05]
B
Wait, are you a big Austin head?
- [01:07]
C
Linda, I'm not a big Austin head. I have read some of the books and I have seen some of the films, but I am not the kind of Austin head that many of my acquaintances and friends are, which is to say, one of my friends has led Austen tours around parts of England, and I'm not that kind, but, you know.
- [01:29]
A
My friend has been booked and busy this year. Yeah.
- [01:31]
C
And I really, really. I really, really like this book. So.
- [01:35]
A
Yeah. All right. For the people who haven't read it, I just got a quick synopsis here. It's about how you cannot tell Lizzie Bennet what to do. Right. This book follows Elizabeth Bennet and her four sisters travails with men and marriage. The central relationship in the book is the courtship between Lizzie, who comes from a relatively poor family, and the super rich Mr. Darcy. There'. There's a lot of poor communication between the two, which sort of gives the book its juice until, spoiler alert, they end up happily ever after. Mm.
- [02:06]
B
Mm, mm.
- [02:07]
D
What?
- [02:07]
A
Yeah, sort. We'll see. Yeah, I think that's fair, right? That's a fair summation. Mm. I'd never read this book before, Andrew. I somehow made it through my life. It was never assigned to me in high school. By the time I got to college and was serious about, like, Studying literature. I was pretty focused on, like, American modernism, and I just had no time for anything.
- [02:24]
B
Sure, Just you and Kerouac, and you were just like, no more.
- [02:27]
A
You know the deal. Come on.
- [02:29]
C
Nobody reads everything. There are just certain people who are very good at giving you the impression that they read everything. They actually don't.
- [02:36]
A
Yeah, but, you know, this is the big 250th anniversary of Jane Austen. I know there's a lot of stuff going on, and I felt it incumbent to give it a shot. I'll just, like, give the top line. Quite a fun read.
- [02:48]
C
Mm.
- [02:50]
B
Not bad.
- [02:50]
C
It is a fun read.
- [02:51]
D
I like it.
- [02:52]
A
I'm into it.
- [02:52]
C
It is a fun read. I think that's the thing that sometimes surprises people if they think of this as, like, a swoony romance book. I think when people find that it is a really funny book, they are sometimes a little bit surprised. Cause, I mean, it is a general problem throughout society that people think jokes were invented in, like, 1980. You know what I mean? And it is sometimes really funny when people come across, like, one thing fairly early in the book that I had highlighted is this moment when Darcy is talking about the fact that he had noticed that she has, like, lovely eyes, and he's starting to kind of be attracted to her and then talks about her eyes. And then the book says, to this discovery succeeded. Some others equally mortifying, which is very funny. It's the idea that, like, he's horrified to find how pretty she is when he had been kind of trying to keep distance from her. And those kinds of little asides, I think, sometimes startle new readers to this book who expect it to be very staid and very what they think of as early 19th century British. It's a very funny book.
- [03:55]
B
Oh, I found it to be hilarious. Like, reading this as an adult, because I'd read it as, like, a teenager, was, oh, this isn't as romantic as I remembered it to be. It's a way more practical approach to relationships.
- [04:13]
A
Wait, Parker, when did you first read it?
- [04:15]
B
I read it when I was. I want to say 15, because I.
- [04:19]
A
Was it like, a school thing?
- [04:20]
B
No, the first DVD I ever got was for Christmas. It was Bridget Jones Diary.
- [04:25]
C
There you go.
- [04:26]
B
That my mom got me. And then so I saw that was my connection to Bridget Jones Diary, and then I got the book from the library of Bridget Jones Diary, and then I got to Jane Austen. So it was a little backwards way of getting there.
- [04:41]
A
What about you, Linda? When did you first read it?
- [04:43]
C
You know, I don't remember exactly when I first read this book, I may have come to it via the BBC adaptation in 1995 that Colin Firth is in and Jennifer ehle is in.
- [05:00]
E
Ms. Bennet, please allow me to apologize for not receiving you properly just now. You were not leaving?
- [05:06]
B
We were, sir. I think we must.
- [05:09]
E
I hope you're not displeased with Pemberley.
- [05:13]
B
No, not at all.
- [05:14]
C
Which is a very specific kind of take on the book. And I think for people who are American adults now, I most often encounter people who, from a film adaptation perspective, Favor either the BBC adaptation with Colin Firth or the 2005 film adaptation that Joe Wright directed with Keira Knightley and Matthew McFadden, who if you've seen Matthew McFadden as Tom on Succession, be very surprised to see him playing. Darcy's a little different.
- [05:49]
A
Yeah. Well, like we said, this novel does loom large in culture, which we're gonna take a break and then get to the sort of cultural impact of Pride and Prejudice. We'll be right back.
- [06:05]
F
This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.
- [06:19]
D
This message comes from NPR sponsor 1Password Protect your digital life with 1Password. If you're tired of family members constantly texting you for the passwords to streaming services, 1Password lets you securely share or remove access to logins access from any device anytime. 1Password lets you securely switch between iPhone, Android, Mac and PC with convenient features like autofill for quick sign ins or right now, Get a free 2 week trial for you and your family at 1Password.com NPR this message comes from Progressive Insurance.
- [06:56]
F
Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [07:09]
A
All right, we're back. Before the break, we talked about our personal connections to Pride and Prejudice, but I want to zoom out and talk about the sort of cultural influence of the book. Let's just run through some quick Jane Austen bio just to give us some grounding here. This book, pride and Prejudice, was first titled First Impressions. Austen completed the draft in 1797, but the book itself wasn't published until 1813. All sections of her novels published during her lifetime were credited only as By a Lady and her name didn't appear on a book until after her death. She didn't really pop up. She had a modest readership, but wasn't, you know, capital J, capital A Jane Austen until later in the 19th century, she sold the rights to Pride and prejudice for £110, which I think amounts to about £9,000 today.
- [07:57]
C
Jane.
- [07:59]
A
Yeah. So she never got any royalties. You know, she signed one of those bad deals, like she was like a Motown act, you know, back then. And then she died relatively young. She died at 41. All of that said, my first sort of way to talk about how this book is around US culture is Elizabeth Bennet is on the Mount Rushmore of I'm not like those other girls. Right?
- [08:25]
B
I think so.
- [08:26]
A
Am I wrong here?
- [08:27]
B
I think so. But it's like it's her and maybe like Jo March. I feel like in my teenage brain they were on the same level of like, I'm a fierce independent. I'm not silly like these other girls who are focused on marriage and money.
- [08:42]
C
I think that's right. I think one thing that's interesting about this book is it was published at a time when marrying for position was still expected from probably a larger proportion of people than it's expected from now. And yet there is a yearning to marry for, if not love, then affection. The interesting thing about the sort of transmogrification of Lizzie Bennet into Bridget Jones is that Lizzie is not as insecure as Bridget is. Bridget kind of takes the Lizzie Bennet idea of being outspoken and sort of not fitting in. And it's seen through a lens of being very self doubting and sort of self loathing. Whereas Lizzie is very. For much of the book, she's very like, well, this is how I see it. This is what I'm gonna do. This is what I'm not gonna do, like it or lump it. And so in that way, I like her as a character for that reason.
- [09:38]
A
Yeah, it's interesting. So while we're on the topic of Bridget Jones, I dug up this interview with Helen Fielding, who's the author of Bridget Jones, that she did with NPR back in 1998. Shout out to Talk of the Nation.
- [09:49]
F
Yeah.
- [09:50]
A
Our colleague Lynn Neri was hosting this day. And so the topic of this segment was approaching female singledom with humor. And here is what Fielding had to say about Pride and Prejudice.
- [10:01]
G
I think, you know, Bridget has got quite a lot of links with Jane Austen. I based the plot on Pride and Prejudice. And in some ways, times are very similar to Jane Austen's day and women's preoccupations are the same in some ways, but what is different is economic power now and that a woman can make a very good life for herself on her own in every sense. And so there is a lot more to give up. And I think probably what's happening is lots of women are not prepared to compromise and not prepared to be with someone who is unkind to them or doesn't get on with them or whatever. And that's the reason, perhaps, why there are many more single women than there were, but they're still looking for an identity.
- [10:45]
A
I think it's an interesting reading. Right, because the implication here is that women, again, this is in 1998, that she's talking. Right. Have more to give up because they have more agency. So that means people in Lizzie Bennett's have less to give up because they lacked agency. But I don't know. When I was reading this novel, I found that because they had no agency in other spaces of life, marriage was such a huge step and a huge decision to make. To me, it seemed like they had more to give up because they had no other outlets for decision making.
- [11:18]
F
Yeah.
- [11:18]
B
Cause I think a part of, I would say my maturity reading this now as an adult is I finally side with Mrs. Bennet. I'm like, wait, Mrs. Bennet is right. Does she lack discretion and is easily vexed?
- [11:32]
A
Yes.
- [11:33]
B
But she understands the rules of the game that, like, this society has created in a way that the Bennet daughters don't fully grasp. She wants her kids to be okay because she can see, essentially, the writing on the wall about, like, what are the family's options? This was, like, the first time I was like, oh, Mrs. Bennet, I get it. Like, are you embarrassing sometimes? Yeah. But, like, you just want everyone to be okay.
- [12:04]
A
I was really frustrated with. I just watched the 2005 Keira Knightley virtual movie yesterday. I was really frustrated with the depiction of the mom with Mrs. Bennet in that film, because in the book I read her as, like, listen, she just knows the game, whether, you know, whether you like it or not. She just knows how to play. It's irritating sometimes, but understands that she is genuinely genuine. It comes out of a place of, like, worry and care for her kids. Yeah, right. And in the movie, she's portrayed as this, like, ditzy, kind of dumb, and, like, all over the place woman. And the dad, played by Donald Sutherland, is played by as this, like, kind and gentle father figure. And I was like, that is not at all.
- [12:44]
E
Your mother insists on you marrying Mr. Collins?
- [12:47]
F
Yes.
- [12:48]
G
I shall never See her again.
- [12:50]
E
From this day onward, you must be a stranger to one of your parents.
- [12:54]
H
I will maintain you when your father is dead.
- [12:56]
E
Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins. And I will never see you again if you do.
- [13:02]
B
Mr. Bennet.
- [13:03]
C
Thank you, Papa.
- [13:04]
B
That version is so like whimsical and it's like, it's sweeping and it allows for the idea that this is like a romance book, right? So when you go back to reading it and reading like, it is about manners and it is about like women being practical in their decisions. Cause there are parts in the book where Elizabeth Bennet very practically is like, maybe I should marry Mr. Darcy. Like, he is kind and maybe I jumped the gun and made a bad decision. Whereas in like a very like, practical, I need to be married kind of way that it wouldn't be as romantic if said in the movies.
- [13:40]
A
Can we talk about where the swoony reputation comes from? Is it because of these adaptations or is it because of. Up until reading this today, my only experience with the book was through like cultural osmosis, right? And so you got male or whatever, you know, and they're talking about how like romantic it is. Is it this book's fault that we as a culture walk away with that interpretation? Or is it like the bajillion other iterations of this book, you know, things that have been inspired by this book, yada, yada, yada.
- [14:07]
C
I mean, it is a romantic book. Like it is a book with a love story, right? It is a book with a love story where, you know, the people meet, they don't like each other. I mean, this is sort of like your basic enemy.
- [14:18]
A
Star wars is too, right?
- [14:19]
C
This is your basic. This is your basic enemies to lovers. People sell a million cop of this to this day, right? Yeah, it is that. It's just that it's also a bunch of other stuff. And I think the adaptations have in some ways found it easiest, particularly when you're dealing with something shorter, like a feature film as opposed to a six part miniseries, have sort of found it easier to streamline in favor of the romance.
- [14:48]
B
I think that. But I also just think that we as a culture are guilty of reinterpreting things to benefit our perceptions of what romance is like. We think Romeo and Juliet is the greatest romance of all time, but they're like 13 year olds who kill themselves. We need to look at some nuance. With Jane Austen, I do feel like, me personally, I think some of her work has been flattened in the culture and Just put into this box of Regency era, like Bridgerton, you are the.
- [15:20]
E
Bane of my existence.
- [15:27]
C
And the object.
- [15:28]
B
Of all my desires. All this kind of stuff that we need it to, like, get that love dose real quick where it's like, we're all guilty of being Mrs. Bennet and being like, three of my daughters are engaged at the end of the book. Success like that is. Everyone's doing like that. She won, she won, she won. Like, that's how we consider success in the terms of these books. And how even when I was talking to you, Andrew, about the movie earlier, I was like, did you get the American version or the British version of the 2005 film? Cause in the British version, Darcy and Elizabeth don't kiss at the end. In the American version that we get, they kiss.
- [16:10]
C
I did not know that.
- [16:11]
B
Yeah.
- [16:12]
A
So it's like the British version, the one that's on hbo, Max, ends with Donald Southern smiling happily.
- [16:17]
B
Love him, Rip. But that's not what we're here for. So, like, even now, like, I'm like, they didn't kiss at the end. Does it count? Like, it's.
- [16:29]
F
Well, yeah.
- [16:29]
C
I mean, it's interesting. Cause you can easily stand in judgment, as we've talked about, stand in judgment of Mrs. Bennet and her attitude that a romantic attachment is the goal of everyone. Right. But on the other hand, any piece of traditional romantic fiction, when you talk about what the elements of a romance novel are and the romance community, I think certainly much of it embraces this as a romance novel. Not everybody. The romance novel has to end with the people getting together at the end. And I think that the key ingredient is the romance genre asks for the people to be happy, and Mrs. Bennet only asks for the people to be married. And I think that's maybe where the tension comes in between those two ways of thinking about this kind of story.
- [17:16]
B
A word.
- [17:17]
A
Yeah. All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then after that, we're going to dig into the meat of the book, get into some textual business. We'll be right back.
- [17:30]
F
This message comes from BetterHelp. To mark World Mental Health Day, BetterHelp is thanking the therapists who change people's lives all around the world by providing accessible mental health Support. With over 12 years of experience matching clients with therapists, and one of the world's largest online therapist networks, BetterHelp can help you find the right therapist. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your first month.
- [17:55]
A
All right, we're back. Linda, you're in the romance world. Right.
- [17:58]
C
I am in the.
- [17:59]
A
Involved in the scene. Right. Knowing what's up. You refer to this book as a classic sort of like enemies to lovers trope. Is this like the Patient Zero of that?
- [18:11]
C
I think the vast majority of tropes like this go back much farther than that. So I would not call it the Patient Zero. I would definitely call it one of the most frequently referenced, probably versions of that. Although, as I said, the interesting thing about it is this book denies you some of the pleasures of a traditional romance novel and some of the beats that would be expected to be included. But I think what you see in this book is a really funny, really clever and witty and timeless story about a couple of people who are both super stubborn. There's a great moment where Lizzie basically says to him, well, I think you're a lot like me. I don't think either one of us says anything unless we think it's gonna impress everybody in the room. And I just thought that is clever and self knowing and yeah, it's emotional intelligence. Yeah, it's a really sharp and pleasurable book, I think. And so it should not be read as work and it should not be read as, you know, necessity. It should be read as pleasure, which I think it is.
- [19:16]
A
Do you know what's interesting? I keep thinking about how relevant the questions in this book are today, particularly in like non western cultures where these discussions of like marriage is much more like it's still a business. Right? My folks got married partly, not 100% out of love. There was like immigration stuff to deal with. There's like status stuff to deal with. And it's like, oh, this stuff. Like maybe this is why I'm so forgiving to Mrs. Bennet, because she reminds me of like my mom, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, I completely understand where you're coming from because these are questions my aunts are still having today with their kids.
- [19:55]
C
100%. It's very over broad, as I think some people who are contemporary white Americans maybe is what I mean to say. It's wildly overbroad to say, you know, now people marry for love. They used to marry for position and money, now they marry for love. First of all, plenty of people who don't marry for position in the traditional sense are not marrying for love, right? Yeah, there are plenty of places where people are very invested still in lots of things besides your personal fondness for each other. So if anybody in this book kind of decides to set aside the need to marry for status It's Darcy, probably, right? Because he's a very fancy person. Lizzie is a less fancy person. And there's an interesting moment in the book when Jane, her sister, asks Lizzie, like, when did you first know that you loved Mr. Darcy? And she says, I think it was when I saw his house. Like, that's a. And listen, there's a lot of. There's a lot of, you know, like, texture to that scene. She's saying a bunch of different things, I think. But it is a funny line in light of that kind of hyper romantic, don't marry a rich guy. Cause he's a rich guy. Marry for love a guy who happens to be rich. Like, that's. There's an interpretation of the story that I think is unfair. If you see it in that way.
- [21:17]
B
That'S like a really thoughtful interpretation that I've never really thought of. Like, is the marriage the win, or is the love the win?
- [21:24]
C
Well, I mean, Jane and Lizzie both end up marrying men that they loved and wanted to marry and who loved and wanted to marry them, who love and treasure. And so they win in that regard.
- [21:39]
B
They just happen to be in positions of power and stature and wealth.
- [21:42]
C
Right. Whereas Charlotte, Lizzie's friend who marries Mr. Collins, has succeeded, according to Mrs. Bennet, because she is married, she is secured in her future. She has a place to live. She has a husband. She's not going to, as is mentioned at one point in this book, die an old maid. But it's clear in Austen's vision that she does not have the same kind of happy ending as Lizzy and Jane because they marry someone who's lovely to them.
- [22:15]
B
Well, there is that moment in the book where the family, like, comes together and is, like, completely embarrassing, but they're being their true selves, though. Like, the sister wants to play the piano, the mom wants to gossip, the dad. I mean, everyone is.
- [22:32]
C
No one wants to run off and have sex with a soldier. You know what?
- [22:36]
B
If you like it, I love it. But, like. But it is who they are. And I think there's a moment where Darcy is brutally honest about his. Like, he's in love with Elizabeth Bennet, but is also brutally honest about who her family is. And there's a part of me that couldn't get past that of, like. He's, like. It doesn't shift that much.
- [22:56]
C
It's a very tough moment. And I think one of the things that I find fascinating about this is that they, you know, Austin doesn't give you a lot of super demonstrative business about him and his feelings beyond this kind of outpouring to her, which turns out to be really not well done at all. Cause he comes in and he's like, it's a terrible idea because you're not suitable and I hate your mother and all this other stuff is, you know, you're completely unsuitable, but I love you anyway, so marry me, because it's too painful for me if you don't. And she sort of has this wonderful, I think has this wonderful reaction that's basically like, thanks. And then she just sort of says, no, thank you. You have done this in a very horrible and insulting way. Plus, she is carrying a couple of misunderstandings about things that he has done. But she sort of reacts with a revulsion, I would say, doesn't want anything to do with him. And it takes other information coming to light about these other things that she was under the impression that he had done that perhaps he had not done to kind of repair that. But to me, yes, to me, it would be very difficult to get over some of the things that he said about Christmases.
- [24:13]
B
Would be difficult.
- [24:14]
C
Yeah, it would be difficult. It would be difficult. Although, is it Colin Firth? Maybe less difficult.
- [24:21]
B
I'll push through. Up next, we'll have our final verdict, some recommendations, and hear from another fan of Pride and Prejudice. Stick around.
- [24:41]
F
This message comes from Saatva, official mattress and restorative sleep provider for Team usa. All athletes have to clear hurdles at some point, one of which is the need to get quality restorative sleep to perform at their peak. That's why Saatva is proud to be providing athletes with mattresses and bedding for the LA28 Olympic and Paralympic Games. You can enjoy that kind of sleep, too. Visit saatva.com NPR and save $200 on $1,000 or more.
- [25:11]
A
All right, we're back. I think I know the answer to this, but the final question is, why do we think this book is worth reading today?
- [25:19]
C
I would say, one, for its influence on other elements of culture, which is always worth, worth understanding. And two, for its love story, which, despite how unusual it is in some of the ways that we've talked about, is still really compelling to me. And three, because it is so funny and so much fun and mean in a.
- [25:44]
A
Funny and mean at times.
- [25:45]
C
Very mean at times. It is mean. She is cutting.
- [25:49]
E
Yeah.
- [25:49]
B
I mean, Austen's feelings are strong, I think. I think it's like this becomes this kind of shorthand when we are trying to navigate some of these stories about relationship. Like, oh, this is clearly like an Elizabeth Bennet character. And I think the way that we started with Andrew being, like. He read it to understand, like, where more contemporary works are, like, getting not their ideas from, but, like, it's like.
- [26:17]
A
Listening to the Beatles is what I was thinking of it. You know, it's like you kind of gotta.
- [26:20]
B
Yeah. Listen to the Beatles before you can.
- [26:22]
A
Understand contemporary music, before you can get.
- [26:24]
B
To take McRae, like. I don't know.
- [26:25]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [26:26]
B
All right.
- [26:27]
C
Well, I was gonna say it's like reading the Bible in some ways that even if you don't, even if it's not your religion, it's very influential and you're gonna hear about it a lot. So for some people, it turns out to be worth it, knowing what it says, even if they don't have a religious attachment to it. So even if you do not have a spiritual attachment to Jane Austen or to romance, perhaps it's worth knowing what's going on in there.
- [26:54]
A
Yeah.
- [26:54]
I
All right.
- [26:55]
A
I think it's time for. If you like this, read that. Parker, do you want to go first?
- [26:59]
B
Sure. Okay. So I think it was in 2019. I have a friend from Pakistan who was like, you've got to read this book called Unmarriageable. And so I read it. I was like, oh, it's basically. It's Pride and Prejudice set in contemporary Pakistan. And does it retread a lot of the plot of Pride and Prejudice? Yes, but it leans itself to the cultural mores of today within Pakistan and how it relates to that Austin world. And I just think it's a really lovely, funny, like, quick read, to be honest. Unmarriageable by Sonia Kamal.
- [27:40]
A
I'd said before that by the time I was, like, getting serious about literature, I was really thinking a lot about American stuff. And the book I was thinking a lot about was William Faulkner's Absalom. Absalom, in the sense of the weight of the family is on your shoulders, fairly or unfairly. You can complain and whine and moan about the game sucks and the deck is loaded against you, but the weight of the family and the family honor is rested on your decisions. And what you do speaks to your family name, and that's a heavy burden to carry.
- [28:13]
C
Nice poll. I like it. Andrew.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah.
- [28:16]
C
I would say if you come to this conversation as a romance reader, you already know this book, probably. But if you come to this conversation as not a romance reader, then maybe you don't. I would mention Red, White, and Royal Blue, which is a romance by Casey McQuiston, which is about a prince who's a member of the British royal family and the son of the U.S. president. And they meet and they hate each other, and they are enemies. They can't stand each other. And then they start, like, emailing and texting, and they fall in love. And it is a pretty hot book. If you miss there being sex in Pride and Prejudice, there's. This is a hot book, but it's also. It has a lot of stuff in it about the burdens of family and the sort of the public implications of your relationship. And some of that is related to the fact that they're both guys, but some of it is really just the what's expected of them because they're both incredibly high profile. It's just a. It's also just a super charming book. Casey McQuiston is one of the current, like, super major writers in that genre, so their work is always worth paying attention to.
- [29:27]
A
All right, well, cool. Well, Linda, thank you so much. This is a lot of fun. I really appreciate it.
- [29:30]
C
Oh, thank you. I'm glad that you guys motivated me to reread this book because I definitely had not revisited it in a bit.
- [29:35]
B
And since Linda brought up Red, White, and Royal Blue as her recommendation for Pride and Prejudice, I thought I'd give its author, Casey McQuiston, a call for our segment. Phone a fan. Hey, Casey.
- [29:51]
F
Hi.
- [29:52]
H
How's it going?
- [29:53]
B
Doing all right. I'm very jealous of this beautiful, gorgeous version of Pride and Prejudice that you have right next to you.
- [30:00]
H
Yes, it's the beautiful Barnes and Noble exclusive gilded edition.
- [30:06]
B
I love when the edges of the book are lined in like a gold. Mm.
- [30:11]
H
Yes. Gilded, as we say. It's like a Catholic hymnal.
- [30:16]
B
All right. Okay. So you've written four novels.
- [30:19]
H
Yes, four romance novels. Working on five.
- [30:22]
B
Hello?
- [30:22]
C
Yeah.
- [30:23]
B
Okay. Cause I was gonna talk about, like, your most recent was the Pairing.
- [30:26]
F
Yes.
- [30:26]
B
That came out. Was it 2024?
- [30:28]
F
Yes.
- [30:28]
B
But you've said in other interviews that Pride and Prejudice inspired your first novel, Red, White, and Royal, particularly the enemies to lovers trope. Have you continued to find inspiration in Jane Austen's work?
- [30:46]
H
Oh, absolutely. I could almost, like, graft a Jane Austen book onto each of my books. Like, I would say, do it well. One last thought was a little harder. Maybe Sense and Sensibility or something. But I know I. Kishar Wheeler is Emma all the way down. And then Persuasion and the pairing. Persuasion, I think, is. There's so much yearning and Persuasion that I really. I felt really inspired by when I think on a conscious level when writing the pairing. And, yeah, unfortunately, I'm running out of Austen books, so I'm gonna.
- [31:18]
B
There's only six.
- [31:19]
C
I know, I know.
- [31:20]
H
I'm gonna have to, like, dive into her deep cuts, like Juvenilia or something, but.
- [31:24]
B
Okay. Much like Austen, I find myself laughing throughout the books. How has humor and romance inspired your writing? Cause your stuff is also funny.
- [31:36]
H
Thank you. I think Austen is such a great example of the best type of romantic banter and, like, funny dialogue. Most recently, as I was rereading Pride and Prejudice ahead of this, I was just struck by how I would say, like, 70% sometimes of the book feels like it's dialogue.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah.
- [31:56]
H
And something I think is really great and smart and sharp about her writing that I take a lot of inspiration from when I see it in other books, when I see it in her books, is the way that these characters are all super smart. They all are very presenting their points of view and are taking and thoughtful ways, and they're doing this banter. And even when they are kind of sniping at each other, it doesn't feel like there's this competition of trying to one up each other's jokes. There's this room to breathe where not everything has to be more clever than the last thing that was said. And it's okay to engage with the last thing that was said and play with it and subvert it. And these characters are really engaging with each other rather than showing off how clever the writer thinks they are or how clever the characters think they are.
- [32:39]
B
I will say, while reading Pride and Prejudice, Lizzie and her banter game. Yeah, I was a little exhausted. I was just like, girl, calm down a little bit.
- [32:50]
H
I know that is one thing about Lizzie. She cannot give it a rest.
- [32:53]
B
But it's like he enjoys the game as much as she does. But Parker at home reading the book was like, I am tired.
- [33:01]
H
That's so true.
- [33:02]
B
This is a terrible transition.
- [33:04]
F
Yeah. I love it.
- [33:05]
B
But do you have time to play a game with me?
- [33:08]
H
I absolutely have time to play a game.
- [33:10]
B
All right, so the 2005 Pride and Prejudice film famously has two endings. There's the UK audience one and one for the US audiences, where Lizzie Bennet and Mr. Darcy finally kiss. Cause Americans need contact for it to be real.
- [33:28]
H
We do.
- [33:29]
B
So in the spirit of playing director Joe Wright, I want to play a game called Alternative Endings where we make up another ending to Pride and Prejudice. All right, so, Casey, think about it. You wanna go first?
- [33:44]
H
I've given this a lot of thought. It's hard because I Do think that Lizzie and Darcy have such a good ending in the book, and the ending that leaves me least satisfied in the book is actually Charlotte Lucas marrying Mr. Collins. I've always found that, like, a really depressing ending. But as an adult now I look at it and I'm like, what if? So come with me on this journey. Okay.
- [34:07]
B
Okay.
- [34:07]
H
So I feel that, like, Charlotte Lucas could very much be read as a Regency era lesb who is just entering into a marriage. She's like, that'll do. He's gonna go listen to himself talk with his bros, or if he can make any friends, he'll go hang out with them. I'm gonna stay home. I'm not gonna be bothered by my husband. We'll have a couple kids, and then I can maybe, like, meet a nice woman who takes care of horses or something. And so my alternate ending is actually, I think, Lizzie and Darcy, instead of retiring to Pemberley at the end of the book, perhaps they go on, like, a honeymoon to go Visit Charlotte and Mr. Collins. And Mr. Collins is away, and we see that Charlotte is not stuck dealing with this man every day, and instead, she's really happy and she's writing little short stories, and she's just hanging out around the house and maybe having a flirtation with a nice cute seamstress in town or something. Now, if I'm changing Lizzie and Darcy's ending, okay. I think that it would be kind of amazing if they found a way to get the house back, to get Lizzie's family house back. I know that technically Charlotte would become the lady of that house.
- [35:29]
B
Yeah.
- [35:30]
H
But there has to be a way for maybe Mr. Collins to be persuaded to timeshare it, maybe, or something.
- [35:39]
B
What's the Regency version of timeshare?
- [35:41]
F
I don't know.
- [35:41]
H
I mean, I think it would be amazing if somehow we have an epilogue where Elizabeth and Darcy have the family home, at least for Christmas time, and we have an extremely awkward meeting of in laws with, like, Wickham and everyone being really rude to him.
- [35:57]
B
So your version of it is that Charlotte marries Collins as her beard, and.
- [36:03]
H
Then, yeah, lavender marriage, even maybe a.
- [36:04]
B
Lavender marriage where she secretly falls in love with a horse girl and then benevolent leaves the Bennetts their home back for the holidays.
- [36:13]
H
Yeah, perhaps.
- [36:14]
F
Yeah.
- [36:15]
H
It's a timeshare situation. My happy ever after is a timeshare situation.
- [36:21]
B
But yours, Mine would be like, oh, sadly, Wickham gets run over by a rogue carriage mid saucy remark, leaving Lydia with all of his earnings. And then she's forced to make better choices.
- [36:36]
F
Yeah.
- [36:37]
B
And while, like, you know, the Bennet d' Arcys no longer have to deal with that man's brand of menace, I.
- [36:42]
H
Think that's really fair as well. I mean, I do think that I would love to see Wickham be hit by a horse and buggy, especially if it was being driven by the, like, hot horse girl that is having an affair with Charlotte Luffy.
- [36:54]
B
Full circle.
- [36:54]
H
Here we go. We're looping it all together and it's at Family Christma.
- [36:58]
B
It's a Christmas miracle.
- [37:00]
H
Absolutely.
- [37:02]
A
Wow.
- [37:02]
B
All right, Casey, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm so glad to have you here. And be sure to pick up Casey's latest novel, the Pairing, out now.
- [37:14]
A
And that's the show. This episode was produced by Cher Vincent and edited by Megan Sullivan.
- [37:19]
B
Engineering support by Robert Rodriguez. And our executive producer is Yolanda Sanguini.
- [37:25]
A
Thank you for listening to books we've loved from npr. We'll see you next time.
- [37:34]
F
This message comes from the Council for Interior Design Qualification. Interior designer and CIDQ president Siyavash Madani explains the value of having an NCIDQ certification.
- [37:46]
I
An NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete a minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience and pass the three part NCIDQ exam.
- [37:56]
D
Exam.
- [37:57]
I
All three exams emphasize and focus on health, safety and welfare of the occupants. It's really about the implementation of design. Good design is never just about aesthetics. It's about intention, safety and impact. We take the responsibility of protecting the public seriously. A space needs to be functional, safe and accessible.
- [38:21]
F
To learn more about NCIDQ certification or to hire a certified designer, visit CIDQ.org NPR this message comes from Carvana. Buy a car 100% online@carvana.com with financing to fit your budget. Enjoy seven days to return. If it's not a fit, limitations and exclusions may apply. See return policy@carvana.com.