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Andrew Limbong
Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. The new movie Nickel Boys is already getting some rumblings for awards. It's about a young African American kid in the 1960s who gets sent to a reform school in Florida. You can probably guess, but the conditions there were pretty bad. The movie is based on a book by the acclaimed novelist Colson Whitehead, and he was on NPR talking about the book when it first came out in 2019. And in this interview with NPR, Scott Simon Whitehead talks about the real reform school that inspired the one he wrote about and the emotional bond he developed with his characters as he was writing. That's coming up.
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Scott Simon
Elwood Curtis is a brilliant and earnest young African American man growing up in Florida during the Civil Rights movement. His most treasured possession is a recording of speeches by Dr. Martin Luther King.
Colson Whitehead
He loves the person and hates the evil deed. And I think this is what Jesus meant when he said love your enemies. And I'm happy that he didn't say like your enemies because it's pretty difficult to like some people.
Scott Simon
Elwood will see plenty of evil deeds during the course of Colton Whitehead's new novel, the Nickel Boys, when he's sent to a juvenile reformatory called the Nickel Academy, which turns out to be a house of horrors. And Colson Whitehead, author of the Underground Railroad, which won just about every award in existence, and a book called the Noble Hustle, the only good book about poker I've ever read, joins us in our studios in New York. Thanks so much for being with us.
Colson Whitehead
Yeah, thanks for Having me.
Scott Simon
This novel is inspired creatively at any rate, by a real place, the Dozier School.
Colson Whitehead
It was a reform school in Florida. And they would take in juvenile delinquents, they would take in orphans wards of the state. And the idea was that instead of locking up kids with grown up criminals, give them an education, have them do some work on a farm, and after 18 months, they might be set on a better path, as happens in places like this, where people are unsupervised and there's a culture of impunity. There's a lot of abuse, physical, sexual. Some kids were killed and they finally ended up closing the place in 2011.
Scott Simon
What did it set off in your mind to read these accounts of the Dozier School?
Colson Whitehead
It was horrifying. You know, it was summer of 2014. It came up into my newsfeed and I think I was struck by the fact I'd never heard the place. It dawned on me, if there's one place like this, there's dozens and dozens, and where are those places and what happens to the kids afterward? And immediately I felt I wanted to write about it.
Scott Simon
Tell us more about Elwood. His favorite record isn't Martha and the Vandella's Motown in the 60s, but a recording of speeches by Martin Luther King.
Colson Whitehead
Yeah, he's been raised by his grandmother, who's very strict and thinks that's like the devil's music. He's very studious. He works in a stationary store and has been reading accounts of Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, and he sees himself as joining them. He wants to protest. He thinks that he can, like the people he admires, change the world. And that's where you find him, in the state of wanting to make the world a better place.
Scott Simon
I liked him so much. He believes in goodness, in practicing goodness. And then you wince when acts of goodness. He stops a shoplifting against the old man who owns the store where he works. He hitchhikes to get to his first day of college classes. And those acts of goodness put him in harm. Reader wants to shout, elwood, don't be so good.
Colson Whitehead
You know, he's an impossible creature. And I think, you know, when I was trying to figure out which King speeches to use for the book, it seemed that Martin Luther King was an impossible person, too. Like, how could this person sort of be among us? His voice and his words were so stirring and so unlikely. So King and Elwood are these people who ignore the facts and think that they can change the facts.
Scott Simon
Actually, I don't get A vote in the matter. But wasn't the point of what Dr. King was talking about the power of, I think, what he called Soul Force, that African Americans would gain a special power and wisdom from their history?
Colson Whitehead
It's a very lovely notion. Do we have that? Can we achieve that? And what's it worth when you're pushing against the forces of centuries of cruel treatment, the machinery of the world? What is Soul Force? I would have an answer, and definitely Elwood is searching for that in the book.
Scott Simon
Your previous novel, the Underground Railroad, received by force of habit. I was gonna say nearly universal acclaim. I can take out the nearly universal acclaim and success. Is it intimidating to say, well, I've got another novel ahead of me and maybe 10 more, 20 more after that?
Colson Whitehead
You know, I've been writing for 20 years. I've written nine books. And sometimes a book comes out and people get what you're trying to do or critics do and readers don't, or vice versa. And books where after the first week it came out, no one really wanted to talk to whether it went well or poorly. It's never easy. This book was hard because I was depressed. This book was hard. I was broke. This book was hard. I was broke and depressed. And you just find the time and hope not to screw it up page by page.
Scott Simon
When you say you were broke and depressed, can I get you to talk about that?
Colson Whitehead
Oh, you know, when I started out as a freelance writer working for the village voice, making 35 cents a word.
Scott Simon
35 cents a word would encourage you to put in the subordinate clauses that now that you're a big successful author, you would long quotes from the book.
Colson Whitehead
I'm reading and stuff like that, and, you know, plot summary. And then, you know, things are happening in your life, like having kids, and then you're just too tired to work at the end of the day and you lose a year here and there, but no one else is going to do the work. So you find that afternoon, did you.
Scott Simon
Go to sleep having nightmares about what you were writing, about what these young men that you had created were living through?
Colson Whitehead
This is the first time I ever had an extreme emotional reaction to working on something. And definitely the last six weeks of the book, I was bummed out a lot because I can't actually hang out with these boys all day and then continue to imagine what's happening to other people in the world. And when I was done, I handed my book in and this. Played video games for six weeks and thought about nothing and cooked. And now that was my healing just taking my mind completely off of what I've been living with for the last year.
Scott Simon
Well, thank you so much Colson Whitehead, his novel the Nickel Voice. So glad you could be with us.
Colson Whitehead
No, thank you.
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NPR's Book of the Day: Colson Whitehead's 'The Nickel Boys' Adaptation
Released on December 16, 2024
NPR's "Book of the Day" delves into the cinematic adaptation of Colson Whitehead's acclaimed novel, 'The Nickel Boys'. Hosted by Scott Simon, the episode offers an in-depth exploration of the book's transition to the big screen, the real-life inspirations behind the story, and the profound emotional connections Whitehead developed with his characters.
Colson Whitehead's 'The Nickel Boys' tells the harrowing tale of Elwood Curtis, a young African American man in the 1960s who is unjustly sent to the Nickel Academy, a reform school in Florida. The narrative unfolds against the backdrop of the Civil Rights Movement, highlighting the brutal realities of institutional racism and abuse.
Scott Simon introduces the protagonist, Elwood:
"[Elwood Curtis] is a brilliant and earnest young African American man growing up in Florida during the Civil Rights movement. His most treasured possession is a recording of speeches by Dr. Martin Luther King."
[01:42]
Colson Whitehead reveals that the Nickel Academy is inspired by the real Dozier School, a notorious reform institution in Florida. He discusses the historical atrocities committed there, including physical and sexual abuse, and the untimely deaths of numerous students, which ultimately led to the school's closure in 2011.
"It was a reform school in Florida. They would take in juvenile delinquents, orphans, wards of the state... there's a lot of abuse, physical, sexual. Some kids were killed and they finally ended up closing the place in 2011."
[02:34]
Whitehead emphasizes the shocking revelation of the school's existence:
"It was horrifying... if there's one place like this, there's dozens and dozens, and where are those places and what happens to the kids afterward?"
[03:18]
Elwood Curtis embodies unwavering goodness and moral integrity. Raised by a strict grandmother who discourages popular music, Elwood immerses himself in the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., viewing himself as a participant in the fight for justice.
"He's very studious. He works in a stationary store and has been reading accounts of Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, and he sees himself as joining them."
[03:38]
Whitehead draws parallels between Elwood and Dr. King, portraying both as individuals who believe in changing the world despite overwhelming odds.
"King and Elwood are these people who ignore the facts and think that they can change the facts."
[04:36]
A central theme in 'The Nickel Boys' is the paradox of goodness. Elwood's virtuous actions, such as stopping a shoplifting incident and pursuing higher education, inadvertently lead him into greater danger within the oppressive environment of the Nickel Academy.
"I liked him so much. He believes in goodness... And then you wince when acts of goodness... put him in harm."
[04:36]
The concept of "Soul Force," inspired by Dr. King's philosophy, is explored as Elwood grapples with the power of his convictions against systemic brutality.
"What's the worth when you're pushing against the forces of centuries of cruel treatment... Elwood is searching for that in the book."
[05:16]
Whitehead candidly shares the emotional toll of writing 'The Nickel Boys'. He describes experiencing depression and financial struggles during its creation, highlighting the personal investment and emotional depth required to bring such a poignant story to life.
"This book was hard because I was depressed. This book was hard. I was broke and depressed... you find the time and hope not to screw it up page by page."
[05:55]
He reflects on his intense emotional connection to the characters, admitting that he had unprecedented emotional reactions to the narrative.
"This is the first time I ever had an extreme emotional reaction to working on something... Now that was my healing just taking my mind completely off of what I've been living with for the last year."
[07:06]
Colson Whitehead's 'The Nickel Boys' serves as a powerful testament to resilience and the enduring fight for justice. Through meticulous research and profound emotional engagement, Whitehead brings to light the dark chapters of America's past, urging readers and viewers alike to confront and remember these pivotal moments in history. The NPR "Book of the Day" episode not only celebrates the novel's cinematic adaptation but also honors the true stories that inspired it, emphasizing the importance of storytelling in illuminating societal issues.
For those seeking a deeper understanding of 'The Nickel Boys' and its transition to film, NPR's "Book of the Day" offers a compelling and informative listen, enriched with firsthand insights from Colson Whitehead himself.