For her latest novel, Patricia Lockwood says she wanted to write about confusion

Summary

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NPR's Book of the Day: Patricia Lockwood on Writing, Illness, and the Puzzle of Brain Fog

Episode Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Ari Shapiro (with introduction by Glenn Weldon)
Guest: Patricia Lockwood, author of Will There Ever Be Another?

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Episode Overview

This episode of "NPR's Book of the Day" centers on Patricia Lockwood's new novel, Will There Ever Be Another? The discussion delves into how Lockwood draws on her personal experience with long COVID—specifically, its confusion, dissociation, and "brain fog"—to craft a highly meta, disorienting reading experience. Host Ari Shapiro explores how Lockwood sought to document and creatively reframe the challenges she faced during and after her illness, including encounters with other writers who experienced similar symptoms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Writing About Confusion and Dissociation

• Meta-Narrative Structure: Lockwood’s novel features a fictionalized version of herself on a book tour, blurring reality and fiction in ways that mirror the disorienting effects of illness and the pandemic.

  • “It's in Patricia Lockwood's new novel. The narrator is a novelist named Patricia…” (01:22)

• Intention and Creative Process:

  • Lockwood set out to explore confusion itself as a literary subject, describing her book’s mission statement as, in her own words:

    “I was going to write a masterpiece about being confused.” (03:00)
    “I just strongly felt that no one had done that before… It’s really what I was doing. Yes, it's absolutely. It's a mission statement. It's my motto.” (03:18)

• Immediate Documentation:

  • The writing began almost as soon as she fell ill in March 2020, serving both as observation and as an act of survival during her dissociation.

    “I immediately went into a state of disorientation, dissociation, confusion, seeing gorillas in the trees… The process of writing this book really began in summer of 2020.” (03:57)

2. Encountering Other Writers with Similar Experiences

• Susanna Clarke’s Brain Fog:
  • Lockwood meets and is moved by Susanna Clarke (author of Piranesi), who also struggled with illness-induced cognitive impairment. Audio from Clarke herself describes the pain of being unable to write.
    • [Susanna Clarke]:

      “At some points during my illness, I'd suffered very badly with cognitive impairment, with what they call brain fog. So it had been impossible to write. But... the pressure of all the years when I hadn’t written… weighed very heavily.” (04:53)

  • Lockwood found hope in Clarke’s recovery and success:

    “She was such a hero to me… When she did win [an award], thank God, she grabbed me from behind… I will never forget this in my entire life, that Susanna Clark, the great genius, grabbed my elbow to steady herself… I mean, this means that I'll be able to do it again.” (05:32, 05:40)

3. Humor and “Brian Fogg”

• Embodying Symptom through Language:
  • Lockwood foregrounds the distorted perception caused by brain fog, even jokingly spelling it as “Brian Fogg,” which resonates with the tone of her writing and the communal experience of online sufferers.

    “It's absolutely Brian Fogg… I was reading a lot of Reddit at that time. People… misspelling things. They were saying that they were suffering from Brian Fogg. And I just felt that I was like, I'm on the front lines of something…” (06:34)

    • Ari Shapiro:

      “That’s one of the things that I love about your writing, is that even as you're describing near death experiences, you're doing it in a way that takes very serious things not too seriously.” (07:01)

    • Patricia Lockwood:

      “I just think that both things are present… you have to keep both bits in… that's part of what makes it true.” (07:11)

4. Mind and Body: Juxtaposing Visible and Invisible Illness

• Concrete Tasks During Dissociation:
  • Lockwood describes how her husband's health crisis required her to address a tangible, physical wound—even as she herself battled the intangible confusion of long COVID.

    “It put me back into the realm of the concrete. Yeah, it filled me back to my fingertips. I had a job to do on this planet Earth… And I tended my husband's wound. You know, it just felt… you had something to do.” (07:54)

  • She notes the importance of feeling needed, which offered a reprieve from her own “uselessness.”

5. Searching for Wholeness and Identity

• On Assembling the Self:
  • Lockwood reads from her novel’s end, contemplating the incomplete yet vital process of assembling herself, both body and mind:

    “The end was an oasis you never wanted to reach. The best version was when you were in it and all the components were in a hurricane... If I could communicate the way it was put together or the act of putting togetherness, this was a kind of immortal life. Her body was to be found. Her correct body and mind were to be found in the process of assembly.” (08:34)

  • Asked how she feels today, Lockwood says:

    “I feel closer to my own name. I do feel more like myself and I am much better.” (09:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On confusion as a subject:

  “I was going to write a masterpiece about being confused… It's a mission statement.”
  — Patricia Lockwood (03:00, 03:18)

• On brain fog and humor:

  “It's absolutely Brian Fogg… I was like, I'm on the front lines of something.”
  — Patricia Lockwood (06:34)

• On the hope from Susanna Clarke:

  “The fact that you were able to do it again… I just felt in that moment that I'll be able to write another book.”
  — Patricia Lockwood (06:03)

• On wholeness in recovery:

  “I feel closer to my own name. I do feel more like myself and I am much better.”
  — Patricia Lockwood (09:13)

• On her experience caring for her husband:

  “It put me back into the realm of the concrete… You know, it just felt you were on your feet.”
  — Patricia Lockwood (07:54)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:22] Ari Shapiro introduces the novel’s meta structure
• [03:00] Lockwood articulates her mission to write about confusion
• [03:57] Lockwood describes her immediate post-COVID symptoms
• [04:53] Susanna Clarke shares her experience with cognitive impairment
• [05:40] Lockwood’s moving interaction with Susanna Clarke
• [06:34] The “Brian Fogg” anecdote
• [07:54] Lockwood on caring for her husband and reconciliating physical/mental health
• [08:34] Reading from the novel on assembling the self
• [09:13] Lockwood on her current state of recovery

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, witty, and suffused with both gravitas and humor—mirroring Lockwood’s own literary style. Both interviewer and guest interweave serious topics (illness, cognitive struggle, care for loved ones) with irony and playfulness, creating an accessible yet deeply thoughtful exchange.

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Summary prepared for readers who want a comprehensive yet engaging overview of this NPR episode—and the ideas that animate Patricia Lockwood’s latest work.

Transcript

[Glenn Weldon]

Hey all, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Glenn Weldon. Writers and artists will be grappling with the COVID 19 pandemic for many years to come, which only makes sense. It was a rare, universal experience in a world that's growing more and more atomized every day. In her new novel, Will There Ever Be Another? Your author Patricia Lockwood documents one particularly puzzling aspect of that time that is still with us, the so called brain fog of Long Covid. And if the experience of reading the book is at times disorienting, that's kind of the Lockwood strives to capture the sense of confusion and dissociation she experienced for years after contracting Covid in March 2020. She talked with NPR's Ari Shapiro about it. Here's that conversation.

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[Ari Shapiro]

This might be the most meta introduction to an author interview that I've ever delivered. It's in Patricia Lockwood's new novel. The narrator is a novelist named Patricia, who describes a book tour to promote a previous novel. In early 2021, I am readying myself.

[Patricia Lockwood]

For another interview when the crowd bursts into the Capitol. I have to go get a haircut with my phone held tensely in my lap under the barber cape and wonder the whole time whether the speaker of the House is having her head chopped off. The haircut itself is administered by a stylist in his 50s who believes in me in a way that no one ever has before, that I can carry off an early 90s fly girl situation. When I step out of the salon and back into the stream of what is happening, I have a feeling that I've possibly never had before.

[Ari Shapiro]

American 4 years ago I was part of that book tour she describes in this latest book. Well, Trisha Lockwood's novel is out now. It's called no One Is Talking about this. That was then, this is Now. Patricia Lockwood's new novel is called Will There Ever Be Another your Tricia, thank you for joining us again for this Russian nesting doll moment.

[Patricia Lockwood]

Ari, thank you so much for having me. I remember you most of all as a man of taste. I believe we discussed the sapphires and nipple moments.

[Ari Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Patricia Lockwood]

Yeah. I was just so grateful. I was like someone finally who gets it.

[Ari Shapiro]

Well, I should say. I almost never interview an author about two books in a row, and it's a testament to you that here we are back again.

[Patricia Lockwood]

Thank you.

[Ari Shapiro]

I don't know if that introduction left people a little disoriented, but this is a disorienting book. The way you phrase it is. I was going to write a masterpiece about being confused.

[Glenn Weldon]

Yeah.

[Ari Shapiro]

Why did you want to write about confusion?

[Patricia Lockwood]

I just strongly felt that no one had done that before. That was a line that I kept popping in and taking out, thinking it's a little bit on the nose. Do I really want this kind of tagline for the project? But it's really what I was doing. Yes, it's absolutely. It's a mission statement. It's my motto. I just had this interest the entire time in what I was doing in my notebook and why I was attempting to observe this thing that sort of categorically or definitionally couldn't be observed.

[Ari Shapiro]

We're talking around this thing and your notebook. Tell us what happened to you, Trisha, the author, to help us understand the experience of your narrator.

[Patricia Lockwood]

Yes, I became extremely ill in March of 2020 with what we all know as the Thing that Shall Not Be Named, the long C word. The long C word. The eternal C. And I immediately went into a state of disorientation, dissociation, confusion, seeing gorillas in the trees. And this state really went on for about four years. And so the process of writing this book really began in summer of 2020. I was doing it right away. I was like, why do I feel this way? Why am I seeing gorillas? Why am I afraid of the floors? The entire time, it was documentation. Documentation.

[Ari Shapiro]

Okay, this is about to get meta again, because at one point, your narrator is in England and meets an author named Susanna who struggled with illness and brain fog. Oddly enough, I interviewed the author, Susanna Clark in 2020 about her experience writing the novel Piranesi. And here's what she told me.

[Susanna Clarke]

At some points during my illness, I'd suffered very badly with cognitive impairment, with what they call brain fog. So it had been impossible to write. But I came to a point where I felt I could write. But the pressure of all the years when I hadn't written and all the stories I hadn't written weighed very heavily.

[Ari Shapiro]

You can imagine, as I was reading.

[Mike Danforth]

This book, I was like, wait a.

[Ari Shapiro]

Second, I know who she's talking about here. I did that interview with that other author. So, Tricia Lockwood, what did you learn by talking to a writer, Susanna Clarke, who had been through something so similar to what you were living through?

[Patricia Lockwood]

She was such a hero to me, and I wanted her to win so badly, just so I didn't have to give a speech, first of all.

[Ari Shapiro]

So you meet her at this awards ceremony?

[Patricia Lockwood]

Yes, yes. Now, when she did win, thank God, she grabbed me from behind. She was standing behind me, and she grabbed sort of my elbow to steady herself. And I was just like, I will never forget this in my entire life, that Susanna Clark, the great genius, grabbed my elbow to steady herself. And I just turned to her and I said, I mean, this means that I'll be able to do it again.

[Glenn Weldon]

Wow.

[Patricia Lockwood]

The fact that you were able to do it again, it showed me. I just felt in that moment that I'll be able to write another book. I'll be able to do what she did.

[Ari Shapiro]

One small detail that I want to mention, because I bring it up whenever I'm telling other people about this book, is that you write the phrase brain fog as Brian Fogg, which I find to be such a perfect distillation of kind of your writing style, where you are embodying the thing you're talking about in a way that is funny, but also more real than any analytical description of what brain fog feels like could possibly be.

[Patricia Lockwood]

It's absolutely Brian Fogg. I originally had a little bit more about that, but I liked it just to leave it as that line. I was reading a lot of Reddit at that time. People were describing their symptoms, they were misspelling things. They were saying that they were suffering from Brian Fogg. And I just felt that I was like, I'm on the front lines of something. I'm sort of witnessing. People talk about this new illness in real time and try to figure out what it is and what might help them. But it's also funny, isn't it? A little bit.

[Ari Shapiro]

Oh, it's hilarious. And that's one of the things that I love about your writing, is that even as you're describing near death experiences, you're doing it in a way that takes very serious things not too seriously.

[Patricia Lockwood]

Yeah, I just think that both things are present. It was always like that in my household. And I just think you have to keep both bits in. Like, that's part of the observation. That's part of what makes it true.

[Ari Shapiro]

Okay, so the narrator's Husband has a near death experience, hemorrhaging, emergency surgery when he gets home from the hospital. The wife is responsible for cleaning the wound. And your own husband had an event like this. How did you think about the juxtaposition between this very visible physical problem of the body and the experience that you and your narrator were having of this much more kind of invisible, slippery problem of the mind that you were wrestling with?

[Patricia Lockwood]

Yeah, it's such a great question. It put me back into the realm of the concrete. Yeah, it filled me back to my fingertips. I had a job to do on this planet Earth. I woke up in the morning, I drank my coffee and then I went into that room with the Chihuahua mistake all over the carpet. And I tended my husband's wound. You know, it just felt you were on your feet. You had something to do. And you also, you know, that sense of your own uselessness just went away. You're like, I can handle this. Let me do this. Let me in there. Let me take care of you.

[Ari Shapiro]

There's a moment towards the end where you talk about this kind of movement towards conclusion. Could you read from page 240?

[Patricia Lockwood]

Yes. The end was an oasis you never wanted to reach. The best version was when you were in it and all the components were in a hurricane. No one could ever read that but you and the people who inherited your papers. But it was the real thing in its way. If I could communicate the way it was put together or the act of putting togetherness, this was a kind of immortal life. Her body was to be found. Her correct body and mind were to be found in the process of assembly. Hmm.

[Ari Shapiro]

How are you now? Do you feel assembled? Do you feel in the process of assembly?

[Patricia Lockwood]

I feel closer to my own name. I do feel more like myself and I am much better.

[Ari Shapiro]

Patricia Lockwood, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Patricia Lockwood]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Ari Shapiro]

Her new novel is called Will There Ever Be Another your foreign.

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[Ari Shapiro]

Wait, Wait, don't tell me.

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