In 'The Science of Revenge,' an expert explains why humans are hardwired for payback

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: Summary of "The Science of Revenge" Episode

Release Date: June 25, 2025

In the episode titled "The Science of Revenge," NPR's Book of the Day delves into the intricate workings of human vengeance, exploring why the desire for payback is deeply ingrained in our biology and psychology. Hosted by Michelle Martin, the episode features an insightful conversation with Yale psychiatry Professor James Kimmel, Jr., the author of the book The Science of Revenge. The discussion sheds light on the neurological underpinnings of revenge, its parallels with addiction, and potential pathways to overcoming this primal urge.

---

1. James Kimmel's Personal Journey [02:24 – 04:04]

Professor Kimmel opens up about his own experiences with revenge, providing a poignant backdrop for his academic insights.

• Personal Story of Revenge: Kimmel recounts a tumultuous period during his adolescence when he faced relentless bullying after moving to the countryside. The escalating harassment—from verbal taunts to acts of violence like killing his dog and destroying his mailbox—culminated in his contemplation of using a revolver to exact revenge. However, a moment of self-realization halted him: “if I killed them, I'd be killing the person I knew myself to be” (03:33).

• Professional Involvement in Revenge: Transitioning into adulthood, Kimmel pursued a career in law, which he describes metaphorically as entering the "professional revenge business." He reflects on how the legal profession allowed him to channel his revenge instincts in socially sanctioned ways, but the underlying craving for vengeance remained ever-present (03:44).

2. The Neuroscience of Revenge [04:04 – 05:33]

Kimmel delves into the scientific aspects of revenge, highlighting its deep-rooted presence in human behavior.

• Revenge and the Brain: Drawing on a 2004 neuroscience study, Kimmel explains that the pursuit of revenge activates the same brain regions associated with substance use disorders. He emphasizes that emerging research supports the idea that “your brain on revenge looks like your brain on drugs” (04:11).

• Hardwired Impulses: According to Kimmel, the drive for revenge is an evolutionary trait dating back to the Ice Age. While it originally served to protect lives and ensure survival, in the modern context, it often becomes a compulsive response to perceived slights, targeting not just physical threats but also one's ego and self-image (04:52).

3. Revenge as an Addiction [05:33 – 06:14]

The conversation transitions to the addictive nature of revenge and its broader societal implications.

• Addictive Properties: Kimmel posits that revenge can become an addiction, offering "great soaring highs" much like those experienced during moments of drug use. This addiction-driven behavior can lead to persistent cycles of retaliation, causing long-term harm both individually and geopolitically (04:52).

• Political Manifestations: Using Donald Trump as a case study, Kimmel discusses how public figures may embody the thirst for revenge on a large scale. He clarifies that this is not confined to any particular political ideology but is instead a universal human issue: “it's not a conservative or a liberal issue. It's a human issue, a deeply human issue that's hardwired” (05:54).

4. The Thin Line Between Revenge and Accountability [06:14 – 07:02]

Kimmel examines historical instances where actions driven by revenge blur the lines with notions of accountability.

• Governmental Actions: Citing former President Barack Obama's pursuit of Osama bin Laden, Kimmel argues that such actions, while presented as measures of accountability, are fundamentally acts of revenge. He further critiques the extended conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq under both George Bush and Barack Obama as manifestations of vengeance that result in widespread suffering without lasting satisfaction (06:30).

5. Forgiveness as a Therapeutic Alternative [07:02 – 08:13]

Exploring remedies for revenge addiction, Kimmel advocates for the power of forgiveness.

• Cultural and Philosophical Support: While acknowledging that literature and sacred texts often depict revenge, Kimmel highlights that these same sources also champion forgiveness. He notes that “philosophy preaches forgiveness, and now neuroscience shows that forgiveness has direct pain-relieving brain biological benefits” (07:23).

• Practical Application: Kimmel suggests that practicing forgiveness can provide ongoing emotional relief and healing from past traumas. Unlike revenge, which offers fleeting satisfaction, forgiveness can be a continual source of comfort and recovery, reinforcing his belief in its effectiveness as a countermeasure to revenge (07:02).

---

Conclusion

Professor James Kimmel, Jr.'s exploration of revenge as an innate and potentially addictive behavior offers a compelling perspective on both personal and societal levels. By intertwining personal anecdotes with scientific research, Kimmel presents a nuanced understanding of why revenge is so pervasive and difficult to relinquish. Importantly, he provides a hopeful outlook by advocating for forgiveness as a viable and sustainable alternative, supported by both philosophical teachings and neurological benefits. This episode of NPR's Book of the Day not only illuminates the dark corridors of human vengeance but also paves the way toward healing and reconciliation.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "If I killed them, I'd be killing the person I knew myself to be." — James Kimmel, Jr. (03:33)

• "Your brain on revenge looks like your brain on drugs." — James Kimmel, Jr. (04:11)

• "It's not a conservative or a liberal issue. It's a human issue, a deeply human issue that's hardwired." — James Kimmel, Jr. (05:54)

• "Philosophy preaches forgiveness, and now neuroscience shows that forgiveness has direct pain-relieving brain biological benefits." — James Kimmel, Jr. (07:23)

Transcript

[Andrew Limbaugh]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. I love a good revenge story, a novel about a person wronged who goes to the ends of the earth to get revenge. But the beauty of fiction is that the story ends once you turn the last page. In reality, revenge can have long term geopolitical consequences because the thirst for revenge is something we all have hardwired into us. That's according to Yale psychiatry Professor James Kimmel, Jr. Who's got a new book out titled the Science of Revenge. Up ahead, he speaks with NPR's Michelle Martin about what's going on in our brains when we seek revenge and how it might actually be pretty similar to drug use. That's after the break.

[NPR Sponsor]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from indeed. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out. According to INDEED data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs. More visibility@ Indeed.com NPR terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. This message comes from dsw. Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker, and everything in between because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com a guy.

[Michelle Martin]

Cuts you off in traffic, you have the chance to do the same to him at the next light. Do you do it? Or how about a group that sees itself as oppressed attacks random members of the group they see as their oppressors, even if they're not personally responsible or what should happen. Our next guest thinks there is a human desire to get even. It might even be an addiction. But he also thinks there's a way out. James Kimmel, Jr. Is a lecturer at the Yale School of Medicine and Psychiatry, and he's the author of a new book titled the Science of revenge. James Kimmel, Jr. Thank you so much for joining us.

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

Thank you, Michelle. It's my pleasure to be here.

[Michelle Martin]

You know, in the book you tell this really poignant story about how you as a young person realized that you had a taste for revenge I mean, as briefly as you can. Do you mind telling us that story?

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

When I was a teenager, my family had moved to the country, and I wanted to befriend the neighboring farm kids. The harder I tried to connect with them, the more they resisted that. And that eventually turned into several years worth of bullying, actually. And, you know, it started with unkind words and moved to some physical forms of violence. They killed my dog, blown up our mailbox, staged an explosion at our house. And I decided that I needed to do what I wanted, which was go get some revenge against them. So, being in the country, my family owned a lot of guns. I had been shooting guns since I was probably about 8 years old. I grabbed a loaded revolver from my dad's nightstand, and at the last second, I had this kind of insight, this flash of inspiration that if I. I killed them, I'd be killing the person I knew myself to be.

[Michelle Martin]

And then you became an attorney, and in your own account, basically, you found that this was a socially acceptable way to bully people, and you were good at it. What made you want to stop and take a look at this?

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

I kind of went into the professional revenge business, where the lawyers are the people that have the rare license in society to prescribe, manufacture, and distribute revenge in society. Like, I couldn't get away from it. It always called me back, those great soaring highs that I was getting from getting justice in the form of revenge.

[Michelle Martin]

How did you arrive at the notion that. Well, first of all, that revenge seeking is something that's almost hardwired.

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

You know, there's no 12 step programs for revenge addicts in society or rehabs. But I felt like I needed something like that. And this NeuroScience study in 2004 showed that it activates the same area of the brain that activates for substance use disorders, for drug addiction. But it took 20 years to get from that first study to today, I think, for us to be able to conclude now that your brain on revenge looks like your brain on drugs. And that's exactly what the brain scans show.

[Michelle Martin]

What I'm hearing you saying is that we all have the capacity for revenge, but some people pursue it. So why is that?

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

We're hardwired to do this back as early as perhaps the Ice Age and coming forward. But what has happened now, and what happens all too frequently is that that natural desire for revenge that we all have becomes a compulsive desire for people, and it can be activated not just for attacks that would threaten our lives or our ability to procreate, which is the evolutionary process. But simple attacks or perceived attacks, they can be real or imagined that target our egos, our identities, our self image.

[Michelle Martin]

You wrote an opinion piece for Politico titled what the Science of Addiction Tells Us About Donald Trump. And in the book, you expand on this. Donald Trump as a candidate, I mean, particularly in this election, made it clear that part of his motive was seeking revenge. So what's your take on that? Like, what do you think it's about?

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

It's not only Donald Trump, but he's really in the public eye right now and is willing to use his desire for revenge on an almost daily basis. But as I said, all of us have it. So it's not a conservative or a liberal issue. It's a human issue, a deeply human issue that's hardwired.

[Michelle Martin]

You write that former President Barack Obama, in pursuing Osama bin Laden, who is the Mastermind of the 911 attacks, you cite that as kind of a case of revenge. But this is where I think some people might say, well, what's the difference between revenge and accountability?

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

What I talk about with Barack Obama is not only the Osama bin Laden experience, but the way that George Bush and Barack Obama led the nation into the killing of people in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars to get that vengeance. But is this the only way for humans to make themselves feel better after they've been wronged, when it causes so much pain, additional victimization, and only lasts a few minutes or hours?

[Michelle Martin]

Do you think that there's hope for this? Because as you pointed out in the book, there are deep cultural warrants for revenge seeking. It's part of our literature, it's part of our culture, it's part of our sacred texts. For some of us, what persuades you that you can persuade other people that there's a better way?

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

In all of those sacred texts, we also have a deep philosophical and spiritual warrant for forgiveness. Philosophy preaches forgiveness, and now neuroscience shows that forgiveness has direct pain, relieving brain biological benefits. Forgiveness is a practice you can imagine thinking of a grievance right now in your mind. And now just imagine how you would feel if you decided to forgive it. Normally, when I ask that question of people, they'll respond, well, if I decided to forgive it, gee, I would feel better. Now, that might only last for a few moments, but with forgiveness, you can do that again and again and again, as often as you like. It's all in our best interest. If we want healing from trauma and pain and the wrongs of the past, there it is. It's available for you right now.

[Michelle Martin]

James Kimmel, Jr. Is the founder and co director of the Yale Collaborative for Motive Control Studies, and he's the author of the science of revenge. Mr. Kimmel, thanks so much for talking to us.

[James Kimmel, Jr.]

Thank you, Michelle. It's been my pleasure.

[Andrew Limbaugh]

And just a reminder that signing up for Book of the Day Plan plus is a great way to support NPR's book coverage and public media. And you'll get to listen to every episode sponsor free. So please go find out [e-mail] BookOfTheDay.

[Michelle Martin]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it.

[NPR Sponsor]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Thrive Market delivering you organic first groceries while restricting over 1,000 harmful ingredients because your standards deserve better. Get 30% off and a $60 [e-mail] podcast.