Ken Liu’s latest novel ‘All That We See or Seem’ is speculative fiction about AI

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day — Ken Liu: "All That We See or Seem"

Air Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Andrew Limbong (interview conducted), with intro by Chloe Weiner
Guest: Ken Liu, author

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights Ken Liu’s new sci-fi thriller, All That We See or Seem, a speculative fiction novel exploring the societal and personal impacts of AI through the lens of human dreams and creativity. Liu and host Andrew Limbong discuss the book’s central premise, its approach to AI as neither utopian nor dystopian, the invention of dream-guiding artists, and how Liu’s background in programming and law influences his storytelling. The conversation examines the power of mythmaking in science fiction and what’s next for the protagonist, Julia Z.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Premise and Setting of the Novel

• The story takes place in a near-future where AI is more thoroughly embedded into everyday life, offering both new opportunities and challenges.
  • Limbong (01:26): "Ken Liu's new sci fi thriller. All That We See or Seem takes place in a world not too far out from ours. It's just one where AI is slightly more ever present, a bit more embedded into every nook and cranny of our lives."
• Main character: Julia Z, a famous hacker trying to live quietly, is approached by Piers to find his missing wife, Ellie, an "Oneirofex."
  • Liu (02:43): "An Oneirofex is a special kind of artist... It's Ellie's job to use AI to ascertain the mood of the crowd and to take them together into a collective dream experience. That's what she does. She's a dream guide."

2. Exploring the Role of AI in Art and Dreams

• Liu is interested in how AI creates new forms for human artistic expression and knowledge:
  • Liu (03:15): "I've been thinking a lot about how can human art remain relevant and what kind of new forms of art would be possible in a world in which AI is omnipresent. And... I'm very interested in dreams as a mode of knowledge."
• Dreams are presented as a neglected but profound way of understanding ourselves:
  • Liu (03:52): "Dreams are one of the most important ways for us to sort of figure out who we are and where our place is in the universe... our deepest commitments are dreams. You know, we speak about the American dream, about I have a dream. These are important concepts."

3. A Non-Binary Take on Technology

• Liu intentionally avoids painting AI as purely beneficial or harmful:
  • Liu (04:48): "The world I'm trying to create here is neither a dystopia nor a utopia... It amplifies our tendencies in both directions. So I wanted to sort of explore all the potential ways in which AI will make life much worse... but also all the ways that AI will empower individuals..."
  • The novel encourages readers to decide for themselves what kind of future is desirable.

4. The Role of Science Fiction: Myth, Not Prediction

• Liu sees science fiction as mythmaking, not prognostication:
  • Liu (05:33): "I take the position that it's almost never possible for science fiction writers to predict the future in a meaningful way. And that's not what our job is. What we do is to construct the mythology of the future, and that's far more important."
• Example: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is influential not for its accuracy, but for the myth it created around technology:
  • Liu (06:02): "We invoke the creature every time we discuss new technology... In fact, the creature is incredibly relevant today because... if you try to remember how the creature learned to speak, it did so by reading a copy of Paradise Lost. So what does that remind you of? A large language model."

5. Liu’s Background and Philosophy of Storytelling

• His careers in programming and law shaped how he views storytelling:
  • Liu (07:19): "Because I was a programmer, I had a particular way of viewing the world... later on, when I was a lawyer, it's the same thing, but now you're doing it with different symbols... And that very naturally led me into thinking about what other ways do we spin these spells? And the answer is, you know, stories. Stories are the original programming code, the original contract, the original means by which we know the universe."
• Liu describes his fiction as "technology stories in the deepest sense" — stories about how human mental patterns materialize in the world.

6. The Future of Julia Z (and the Series)

• Julia Z’s journey will continue and deepen in the next book(s):
  • Liu (08:28): "We get to know Julia better, we get to know more about her internal struggles... She's always going to be there trying to do the right thing because she's driven by this deep sense of internal justice. But she's not without her shadows and her past. And the darkness in her psyche will come back to haunt her."

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• Ken Liu on the purpose of science fiction:

  "What we do is to construct the mythology of the future, and that's far more important." (05:36)

• Ken Liu on dreams and their power in our lives:

  "Our deepest commitments are dreams. You know, we speak about the American dream, about I have a dream. These are important concepts." (03:59)

• Ken Liu on AI’s impact:

  "It amplifies our tendencies in both directions. So I wanted to sort of explore all the potential ways in which AI will make life much worse in specific ways, but also all the ways that AI will empower individuals in specific ways." (04:54)

• Ken Liu on storytelling:

  "Stories are the original programming code, the original contract, the original means by which we know the universe." (07:28)

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Notable Segments Timeline

• 00:02-01:26: Introduction and summary of Ken Liu and the novel’s premise (Chloe Weiner, Andrew Limbong)
• 02:18-03:09: Liu explains the Oneirofex—a dream guide artist role—within the novel’s world.
• 03:15-03:42: Liu discusses his inspiration for the novel’s central artistic premise and focus on dreams.
• 04:21-04:48: Exploration of how technology and AI shape daily life and personal relationships in the book.
• 04:48-05:23: Liu outlines his "middle path" vision for AI’s impact, deliberately avoiding extremes.
• 05:33-07:08: Discussion on science fiction’s role as future mythmaking, with concrete examples.
• 07:12-08:19: Liu reflects on how programming and law fed into his approach to storytelling and speculative fiction.
• 08:19-09:02: Hints about Julia Z’s personal arc in the upcoming sequels.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a concise yet profound dive into the thematic heart of Ken Liu’s All That We See or Seem. By blending discussions about AI, the nature of myth, dreams, and technology, Liu and Limbong provide a nuanced look at how speculative fiction doesn’t just predict change—it shapes how we imagine and navigate it. The episode is essential listening for anyone interested in science fiction, the ethics of AI, and the future of storytelling.

Transcript

[Chloe Weiner]

Hey, this is NPR's book of the Day. I'm Chloe Weiner, producer of the podcast, filling in for Andrew Limbong this week. Ken Liu is a well known author of speculative fiction, so I was curious to see how he'd approach the topic of AI it's something he explores in his new novel, all that We See or Seem. And for a sci fi writer, his take sounds pretty measured. In today's interview, which happens to be with our own Andrew Limbong, Lou says he was interested in presenting a world that's neither dystopic nor utopic. He says he doesn't think AI will make things 100% better or worse, but that it will amplify our own human tendencies in both directions. Lou explores that in part by creating a character whose job it is to use AI in order to guide our dreams. It's a very human centered philosophy of technology. More on that ahead.

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[Andrew Limbong]

The other day I was chatting with my buddy about something. I forget the details. It was one of those bar conversations that's like, oh, who was that drummer on that one song? Or how fast can a cheetah actually run? It doesn't matter the question. The point is he pulled out his phone and asked AI and it felt normal because it is normal. This technology is everywhere, in our casual conversations, our jobs, our relationships. Ken Liu's new sci fi thriller. All that we see or seem takes place in a world not too far out from ours. It's just one where AI is slightly more ever present, a bit more embedded into every nook and cranny of our lives. Lou is a big name in sci fi and speculative fiction. His previous story, the Paper Menagerie won the Hugo, the Nebula and the World Fantasy Award. That's a sci fi hat trick. And he joins us now. Hey Ken, welcome to All Things Consider.

[Ken Liu]

Hi Andrew. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Andrew Limbong]

I mentioned at the top that this book is a thriller, so let me lay out the plot for the audience. Julia Z is our hero, right? She's a famous hacker trying to live a chill and quiet life when a guy named Piers comes knocking on her doorstep because he needs help finding his missing wife. And his wife, Ellie is an Oneirofex. Can you explain to listeners what that is?

[Ken Liu]

Yeah. So an Oneirofex is a special kind of artist. So picture somebody like a rock star who's giving a kind concert, except the audience is sitting in their seats and they are falling asleep. And it's Ellie's job to use AI to ascertain the mood of the crowd and to take them together into a collective dream experience. That's what she does. She's a dream guide.

[Andrew Limbong]

And what made you start thinking about this as a job, as a career profession for Ellie?

[Ken Liu]

So two things. One is, as somebody who works in the creative fields and who's in the conversations about AI and the potential threat of AI. I've been thinking a lot about how can human art remain relevant and what kind of new forms of art would be possible in a world in which AI is omnipresent. And the second piece of it is I'm very interested in dreams as a mode of knowledge.

[Andrew Limbong]

I was going to say that makes me feel like dreams are more tangible thing compared to AI, but they're not tangible. They're sort of by definition out there in the mist. Right.

[Ken Liu]

If you read religious literature, wisdom literature and history, dreams are one of the most important ways for us to sort of figure out who we are and where our place is in the universe. You know, it's the closest we get to travel to the collective unconscious. And in the modern world we seem to have sort of pushed that away. We really don't trust dreams, but our deepest commitments are dreams. You know, we speak about the American dream, about I have a dream. These are important concepts.

[Andrew Limbong]

You write naturalistically about how technology works in this world. Right. Julie uses AI to help her with hacking and her sort of day to day life, but she isn't naive about it. But also there's one scene where like the goon's chasing her and Piers will sometimes just like kill time by talking to an AI girlfriend the way, sort of the way someone today might pull up a YouTube video on their phone or something. Can you talk a little bit about the mood and the tone you wanted to set as you built this world?

[Ken Liu]

So the world I'm trying to create here is neither a dystopia nor a utopia. I don't actually think AI is necessarily going to make things 100 times better or 100 times worse. What it does is it amplifies our tendencies in both directions. So I wanted to sort of explore all the potential ways in which AI will make life much worse in specific ways, but also all the ways that AI will empower individuals in specific ways. And then it's up to the reader to decide whether these speculations are plausible, 1 and 2, whether they are desirable.

[Andrew Limbong]

Is you sort of weaving in between those two poles, those two extremes, based on your own predictions or what you think the audience should think about?

[Ken Liu]

I take the position that it's almost never possible for science fiction writers to predict the future in a meaningful way. And that's not what our job is. What we do is to construct the mythology of the future, and that's far more important. So by constructing a mythology of the future, we sort of give our readers a new way to think about these issues and to ask interesting questions. So I think a concrete example might illustrate my point. Well, so let's take Mary Shelley, right, who wrote Frankenstein. The story is still read today, not because we think her predictions about how you take cadaver pieces and create new life is true, but because the creature as a mythological figure is very potent. We invoke the creature every time we discuss new technology. We talk about Frankenstein's monster or the creature all the time. And in fact, the creature is incredibly relevant today because if you try to remember how the creature learned to speak, it did so by reading a copy of Paradise Lost. So what does that remind you of? A large language model. Right? A creation that ingests our artistic output and then thereby able to replicate our cognitive patterns. So I think it's that sort of thing that's very potent, the idea of creating a mythological figure, something that Mary Shelley pulled out of the collective unconscious, then became part of our mythological imagination. It became part of how we think about the future.

[Andrew Limbong]

You know, before you were a full time writer, you had a day job as a lawyer, right?

[Ken Liu]

I did, yeah. I was a programmer first and then I became a lawyer.

[Andrew Limbong]

How did those two careers sort of lead you to writing speculative fiction?

[Ken Liu]

I think what happened to me was this, because I was a programmer, I had a particular way of viewing the world. I sort of view the world as a set of symbols you had to sort of construct and arrange into some sort of structure to achieve the result that you wanted to achieve. And then later on, when I was a lawyer, it's the same thing, but now you're doing it with different symbols, you know, different rule system. And we sort of construct our lives based around these patterns, tangible patterns, whether it's programming code or contracts. And that very naturally led me into thinking about what other ways do we spin these spells? And the answer is, you know, stories. Stories are the original programming code, the original contract, the original means by which we know the universe. And I wanted to, you know, all of my speculative fiction is centered around that idea. How do human mental patterns manifest themselves in the world in tangible ways, become, in other words, technology. All my stories are really technology stories in that deep sense.

[Andrew Limbong]

So the title page of this book lets us know that this is just the first book in a series of novels following Julia Z. What do you think is in store for her in the future?

[Ken Liu]

So I've already written the second book, so I know what's happening to her. But it's I think we get to know Julia better, we get to know more about her internal struggles. When Julia is out there facing the monsters outside, she's also really facing the monsters inside her own psyche. And more of that comes through in the next books. She's always going to be there trying to do the right thing because she's driven by this deep sense of internal justice. But she's not without her shadows and her past. And the darkness in her psyche will come back to haunt her.

[Andrew Limbong]

Ken Liu's new book is all that We See or Seem. Ken Liu, thank you so much.

[Ken Liu]

Thank you, Andrew.

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