NPR's Book of the Day — Ken Liu: "All That We See or Seem"

Air Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Andrew Limbong (interview conducted), with intro by Chloe Weiner
Guest: Ken Liu, author

Episode Overview

This episode spotlights Ken Liu’s new sci-fi thriller, All That We See or Seem, a speculative fiction novel exploring the societal and personal impacts of AI through the lens of human dreams and creativity. Liu and host Andrew Limbong discuss the book’s central premise, its approach to AI as neither utopian nor dystopian, the invention of dream-guiding artists, and how Liu’s background in programming and law influences his storytelling. The conversation examines the power of mythmaking in science fiction and what’s next for the protagonist, Julia Z.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Premise and Setting of the Novel

• The story takes place in a near-future where AI is more thoroughly embedded into everyday life, offering both new opportunities and challenges.
  • Limbong (01:26): "Ken Liu's new sci fi thriller. All That We See or Seem takes place in a world not too far out from ours. It's just one where AI is slightly more ever present, a bit more embedded into every nook and cranny of our lives."
• Main character: Julia Z, a famous hacker trying to live quietly, is approached by Piers to find his missing wife, Ellie, an "Oneirofex."
  • Liu (02:43): "An Oneirofex is a special kind of artist... It's Ellie's job to use AI to ascertain the mood of the crowd and to take them together into a collective dream experience. That's what she does. She's a dream guide."

2. Exploring the Role of AI in Art and Dreams

• Liu is interested in how AI creates new forms for human artistic expression and knowledge:
  • Liu (03:15): "I've been thinking a lot about how can human art remain relevant and what kind of new forms of art would be possible in a world in which AI is omnipresent. And... I'm very interested in dreams as a mode of knowledge."
• Dreams are presented as a neglected but profound way of understanding ourselves:
  • Liu (03:52): "Dreams are one of the most important ways for us to sort of figure out who we are and where our place is in the universe... our deepest commitments are dreams. You know, we speak about the American dream, about I have a dream. These are important concepts."

3. A Non-Binary Take on Technology

• Liu intentionally avoids painting AI as purely beneficial or harmful:
  • Liu (04:48): "The world I'm trying to create here is neither a dystopia nor a utopia... It amplifies our tendencies in both directions. So I wanted to sort of explore all the potential ways in which AI will make life much worse... but also all the ways that AI will empower individuals..."
  • The novel encourages readers to decide for themselves what kind of future is desirable.

4. The Role of Science Fiction: Myth, Not Prediction

• Liu sees science fiction as mythmaking, not prognostication:
  • Liu (05:33): "I take the position that it's almost never possible for science fiction writers to predict the future in a meaningful way. And that's not what our job is. What we do is to construct the mythology of the future, and that's far more important."
• Example: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is influential not for its accuracy, but for the myth it created around technology:
  • Liu (06:02): "We invoke the creature every time we discuss new technology... In fact, the creature is incredibly relevant today because... if you try to remember how the creature learned to speak, it did so by reading a copy of Paradise Lost. So what does that remind you of? A large language model."

5. Liu’s Background and Philosophy of Storytelling

• His careers in programming and law shaped how he views storytelling:
  • Liu (07:19): "Because I was a programmer, I had a particular way of viewing the world... later on, when I was a lawyer, it's the same thing, but now you're doing it with different symbols... And that very naturally led me into thinking about what other ways do we spin these spells? And the answer is, you know, stories. Stories are the original programming code, the original contract, the original means by which we know the universe."
• Liu describes his fiction as "technology stories in the deepest sense" — stories about how human mental patterns materialize in the world.

6. The Future of Julia Z (and the Series)

• Julia Z’s journey will continue and deepen in the next book(s):
  • Liu (08:28): "We get to know Julia better, we get to know more about her internal struggles... She's always going to be there trying to do the right thing because she's driven by this deep sense of internal justice. But she's not without her shadows and her past. And the darkness in her psyche will come back to haunt her."

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• Ken Liu on the purpose of science fiction:

  "What we do is to construct the mythology of the future, and that's far more important." (05:36)

• Ken Liu on dreams and their power in our lives:

  "Our deepest commitments are dreams. You know, we speak about the American dream, about I have a dream. These are important concepts." (03:59)

• Ken Liu on AI’s impact:

  "It amplifies our tendencies in both directions. So I wanted to sort of explore all the potential ways in which AI will make life much worse in specific ways, but also all the ways that AI will empower individuals in specific ways." (04:54)

• Ken Liu on storytelling:

  "Stories are the original programming code, the original contract, the original means by which we know the universe." (07:28)

Notable Segments Timeline

• 00:02-01:26: Introduction and summary of Ken Liu and the novel’s premise (Chloe Weiner, Andrew Limbong)
• 02:18-03:09: Liu explains the Oneirofex—a dream guide artist role—within the novel’s world.
• 03:15-03:42: Liu discusses his inspiration for the novel’s central artistic premise and focus on dreams.
• 04:21-04:48: Exploration of how technology and AI shape daily life and personal relationships in the book.
• 04:48-05:23: Liu outlines his "middle path" vision for AI’s impact, deliberately avoiding extremes.
• 05:33-07:08: Discussion on science fiction’s role as future mythmaking, with concrete examples.
• 07:12-08:19: Liu reflects on how programming and law fed into his approach to storytelling and speculative fiction.
• 08:19-09:02: Hints about Julia Z’s personal arc in the upcoming sequels.

Conclusion

This episode offers a concise yet profound dive into the thematic heart of Ken Liu’s All That We See or Seem. By blending discussions about AI, the nature of myth, dreams, and technology, Liu and Limbong provide a nuanced look at how speculative fiction doesn’t just predict change—it shapes how we imagine and navigate it. The episode is essential listening for anyone interested in science fiction, the ethics of AI, and the future of storytelling.