Looking back at 'Normal People,' before Sally Rooney’s rise to fame

Summary

NPR’s Book of the Day: Looking Back at 'Normal People,' Before Sally Rooney’s Rise to Fame

Host: Andrew Limbong
Guest: Sally Rooney (interviewed by Rachel Martin, 2019)
Date: January 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode revisits an insightful 2019 interview with Irish author Sally Rooney, discussing her breakout novel Normal People shortly after its release. Before Rooney became a literary sensation, this conversation explores the novel's central themes of class, social identity, intimacy, and self-awareness through the complicated relationship of Connell and Marianne. The interview provides a window into Rooney’s thought process and the nuances that made Normal People a touchstone of millennial fiction.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Enigma of Connell and Marianne’s Relationship (01:22–02:19)

• Andrew Limbong sets up the central dynamic: two young people—deeply attached, perpetually out of sync.
• Rooney describes the secretive nature of their early relationship as both “oppressive” and “liberating,” shielding them from social pressures at the cost of open expression.
• Quote:

  "Even though that secrecy is in a way a little bit oppressive for both of them, I think it's also in a strange way kind of liberating...they find new ways to express themselves and to kind of carve out an identity or a sense of self just for one other person."
  — Sally Rooney (01:39)

2. Suffering and Mutual Recognition (02:19–03:13)

• Martin asks if their mutual suffering binds them together.
• Rooney reflects on this, noting the universality of suffering but suggesting Connell and Marianne uniquely “see each other” in a way others cannot.
• Quote:

  "Maybe it is that they can instinctively recognize that there's a commonality in the kind of suffering that they're experiencing and that they're just not able to recognize that commonality in other people necessarily."
  — Sally Rooney (03:01)

3. Self-Awareness and Youth (03:13–04:10)

• Martin and Rooney discuss the characters’ limited self-awareness—how emotional myopia is typical of youth but not necessarily left behind with age.
• Quote:

  "I don't think that it's necessarily age limited, it may just be individual limited in the sense that that's just the kind of people that they are."
  — Sally Rooney (03:59)

4. Class and Social Identity: The Power Shift at University (04:10–05:40)

• Martin prompts Rooney to discuss a key plot shift, when both characters enter university in Dublin.
• Rooney explains the reversal in social fortunes: Marianne flourishes, Connell struggles—particularly with how his working-class masculinity is devalued in the new context.
• Quote:

  "Whereas Connell, who had so many things going for him in school, finds that the particular forms of masculinity, I suppose specifically working class masculinity, just isn't really available for exchange in this social environment. It's just not working for him. And he feels, like, very confused and puzzled as to why he can no longer trade on the same kinds of charisma..."
  — Sally Rooney (05:13)

5. Living Apart: Marianne in Sweden (05:40–06:30)

• Martin touches on the period Marianne studies abroad, which marks another seismic shift.
• Rooney: Although both are suffering, it is less because of the physical distance and more about lacking their usual coping mechanisms—each other.
• Quote:

  "...the kinds of suffering that they encounter, they don't necessarily have the same coping mechanism they might have if they were together, because they're so used to sort of having each other on hand to work through all the various crises..."
  — Sally Rooney (06:10)

6. The Ongoing Life of Characters: Letting Go (06:30–08:05)

• Martin asks about the creative process and whether Rooney continues to “check in” on her characters after finishing the book.
• Rooney acknowledges the difficulty of letting go but leaves open the possibility of revisiting Connell and Marianne in the future.
• Quote:

  "I do like the idea that they're kind of there and that I can check in with them to see what happens in their later lives. Because I suppose to me, whether or not I did justice to this in the book, I can't obviously say. But to me they really did feel like full human beings, as it were."
  — Sally Rooney (07:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|--------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:39 | Sally Rooney | “That secrecy is…liberating…they find new ways to express themselves…and carve out an identity…just for one other person.” | | 03:01 | Sally Rooney | “Maybe it is that they can instinctively recognize…a commonality in the kind of suffering that they're experiencing…” | | 03:59 | Sally Rooney | “I don't think that it's necessarily age limited, it may just be individual limited…” | | 05:13 | Sally Rooney | “Connell…finds that the particular forms of…working class masculinity just isn't really available for exchange…” | | 06:10 | Sally Rooney | “…they don't necessarily have the same coping mechanism they might have if they were together…” | | 07:39 | Sally Rooney | “They really did feel like full human beings, as it were…that I can check in with them to see what happens…” |

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Key Segments with Timestamps

• 01:22–02:19 — The complexity of Connell and Marianne’s secret relationship
• 02:19–03:13 — Suffering as a source of connection
• 03:13–04:10 — The limits of self-awareness in youth and beyond
• 04:10–05:40 — Social class role reversal at university
• 05:40–06:30 — Life changes with distance: Marianne’s year in Sweden
• 06:30–08:05 — The creative process: keeping characters alive after publication

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Tone and Style

• The tone is reflective, intimate, and analytical. Rooney speaks with an understated warmth, exploring her characters’ interior lives, while Martin gently probes for deeper insight.
• The conversation is accessible to both readers of Normal People and those unfamiliar with her work, providing a meaningful exploration of universal themes like identity, class, and youth.

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Summary Conclusion

This episode of NPR’s Book of the Day offers a behind-the-scenes look at Sally Rooney’s thinking when Normal People was just beginning its cultural ascent. Through the lens of an honest and searching conversation, listeners gain a richer understanding of the novel’s meditation on intimacy, class, and personal growth—and a rare glimpse at the humble beginnings of one of contemporary fiction’s biggest stars.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. These days, the Irish author Sally Rooney is a straight up star, as big of a star as can come from the literary fiction world. But way back when, in those hazy, crazy days of 2019, she was out promoting the book that would become her breakout hit, Normal People. If you haven't read it or seen the Hulu TV show adaptation, it follows Connell and Marianne, two young people in love and in lust. But they're at an age when it's hard to figure yourself out, much less someone else. And this interview from 2019 between Rooney and NPR's Rachel Martin is an interesting glimpse at how Rooney was thinking about class, masculinity and the social strata, themes she'd spend an entire career exploring. That's ahead.

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[Andrew Limbong]

Real quick, just to set it up. Rooney's novel features two people who, for whatever reason, just can't make it work. But they keep trying anyway. Here's Rooney.

[Sally Rooney]

The opening phase of their relationship when they're in secondary school is, for various reasons, kept a secret. And even though that secrecy is in a way a little bit oppressive for both of them, I think it's also in a strange way kind of liberating because it means that their relationship is kept apart from the social world and kept protected from it in a sense. And they find new ways to express themselves and to kind of carve out an identity or a sense of self just for one other person. You know, they're at that age where they're really trying to figure out who they are going to be as adults. You know, they're 17, 18, 19. They don't really know themselves very well yet. And so, yeah, I think their intimacy is a really formative part of how they develop an identity in those years.

[Rachel Martin]

They are each suffering in some way. Is that what continues to draw them to one another over time? Do they recognize that in each other?

[Sally Rooney]

Yeah, I mean, it is certainly true that both of them suffer. But then to what extent do they suffer more than others? You know, I mean, I think it's probably true that everyone around them is suffering too. And maybe they're not attuned to the suffering of other people as much as they are to their own. And maybe at that age, for some reason they offer one another a window into each other's lives that when they look around them at other people in their social lives and their families, among their friends, they just, just don't seem to be able to see through other people in the same way that they can see through each other. So maybe it is that they can instinctively recognize that there's a commonality in the kind of suffering that they're experiencing and that they're just not able to recognize that commonality in other people necessarily.

[Rachel Martin]

I guess that's also what struck me is that they don't seem that self aware, which is kind of what it means to be an 18 year old or a 20 year old, that your own perception of your or pain is all encompassing and perhaps disproportionate to the kind of suffering or pain that other people have.

[Sally Rooney]

Yeah, I mean I definitely think there are moments in the book where their self awareness fails hugely. And it may be, you know, because they are very young, I mean they're almost children when we meet them and then when we leave them they're 22. But it may also just be that that's what people are like or I suppose that's what these people are like. I mean, I don't know if we met Conell and Marianne down the road 20 years later that they wouldn't necessarily still be trying to learn some of the same lessons. Like I don't think that, I don't think that it's necessarily age limited, it may just be individual limited in the sense that that's just the kind of people that they are. I think I'd like to ask about.

[Rachel Martin]

Two specific pivot points in the plot. Connell and Marianne grow up together in the same community and they are affected by the social strata that puts them into various groups, locks them there. What happens when they go to college? They end up going to the same place.

[Sally Rooney]

Right, Right. So Marianne has kind of convinced Conal to apply for the same university that she's going to, which is a university in Dublin. And he does then their relationship in the meantime has completely fallen apart. So they're not even on speaking terms, but they both end up going to the same university. And of course, inevitably, because Dublin is small and because this college is small, they do run into one another. And when they do, they're meeting each Other in a very different social context, with, you know, having developed kind of different identities in the meantime. So Marianne, who was a social pariah in secondary school, has now become a little bit popular, almost celebrated. Whereas Connell, who had so many things going for him in school, finds that the particular forms of masculinity, I suppose specifically working class masculinity, just isn't really available for exchange in this social environment. It's just not working for him. And he feels, like, very confused and puzzled as to why he can no longer trade on the same kinds of charisma that apparently were so effective when he was in school. And he does feel very lost. So the social positions that they were in seem to have almost exchanged themselves completely.

[Rachel Martin]

And then I wanted to ask about another moment where things change for them. When Marianne goes to Sweden, Things seem to shift profoundly again then.

[Sally Rooney]

Yeah. So Marianne takes in Erasmus Year, which is like a program where you can study abroad for a year, and she goes to Lund in Sweden, and Connell stays behind in Trinity. And during that period, they're both suffering, I think, not simply or not even primarily because they're apart, but it does mean that the kinds of suffering that they encounter, they don't necessarily have the same coping mechanism they might have if they were together, because they're so used to sort of having each other on hand to work through all the various crises they encounter, many of which are caused by one another. And so when they're apart, I think it is. It's different for them.

[Rachel Martin]

You have noted a couple times in the course of our conversation that for you writing this story, it's not like you had agency over every development, that you were, in fact, just kind of observing the characters and the tale that was unfolding before you. And I wonder if it's. Does it just stop when you finish the last page, or do you find yourself continuing to watch that story unfold? I mean, do you imagine who these people are in middle age, for example?

[Sally Rooney]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny, certainly when I finished the book, I was still very much with the characters in my mind, and I found these two very hard to let go of. I mean, just because I suppose in one sense, I'd spent so much time with them in my brain that I was kind of used to relying on them in a way. So they did stay with me, definitely. But since then, I've started working on new things, and I guess I spend most of my time now with sort of new imaginary people in my brain, and I don't find myself returning to Conell and Marianne in quite the same way or quite so often. But I don't necessarily think it would be impossible for me to return to them substantially later on and sort of find out what they're up to. Like I do. I do like the idea that they're kind of there and that I can check in with them to see what happens in their later lives. Because I suppose to me, whether or not I did justice to this in the book, I can't obviously say. But to me they really did feel like full human beings, as it were. So I almost believe that they're out there having a life and that it's just maybe my job down the line is to check in and see and see whatever became of them.

[Rachel Martin]

The novel is called Normal People, written by Sally Rooney. Sally, thank you so much.

[Sally Rooney]

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

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