Mark Lilla's new book explores the psychology and consequences of willful ignorance

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: Exploring Willful Ignorance with Mark Lilla

Episode Release Date: January 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of NPR's Book of the Day, host Andrew Limbong introduces Mark Lilla’s latest work, "Ignorance and On Wanting Not to Know." Lilla, a historian at Columbia University, delves into the psychology and societal implications of willful ignorance. The conversation primarily features journalist Asma Khalid, who engages with Lilla to unpack the complexities of human nature in the pursuit and rejection of truth.

The Nature of Willful Ignorance

Mark Lilla begins the discussion by posing a fundamental question: "Is ignorance actually bliss?" (01:30). He explores the delicate balance humans maintain between the desire to know and the instinct to avoid uncomfortable truths.

Asma Khalid responds by acknowledging that individuals vary in their inherent curiosity. She states, "We've all met people like this, someone who can't let their curiosity go" (02:33), highlighting that while some relentlessly seek information, others deliberately limit their knowledge to prevent distraction in their lives.

Personal vs. Societal Ignorance

The dialogue transitions to the broader societal implications of willful ignorance. Lilla questions what drives large populations to disengage from factual information (03:25). Khalid attributes this phenomenon to significant social changes and the widening gap between the educated and less educated segments of society. She notes, "There's great distrust now between the two groups, and we know all about that." (03:39)

Lilla further inquires about specific information types that people are more inclined to ignore. Khalid points out that medical conditions and mortality are prime examples where individuals both desire and resist knowing the truth. She explains, "There are often situations where both of them are at play. And understandably." (05:12)

The Role of Social Media in Promoting Ignorance

Mark Lilla probes the influence of social media on information consumption. Khalid responds by emphasizing the double-edged sword of constant accessibility to information. She remarks, "Incentive to sort of build walls against all of this or to group yourself among, like, friends." (04:13)

Khald cites examples from both political spectrums:

• Trump followers dismissing facts that contradict his statements.
• Biden administration allegedly withholding President Biden’s health status from the press.

These instances illustrate how social media fosters environments where willful ignorance thrives on all sides (04:13).

Types of Information People Avoid

The conversation delves deeper into specific areas where willful ignorance is prevalent. Khalid highlights personal health and mortality as significant areas of avoidance. She explains, "The will to know and the will not to know is within all of our heads." (05:12)

This duality reflects the universal human struggle to balance the need for knowledge with the desire to remain unburdened by certain truths. Khalid emphasizes that this internal conflict is a natural part of human psychology, influencing how individuals interact with information on both personal and societal levels.

Conclusion

Mark Lilla and Asma Khalid conclude their discussion by reiterating the pervasive nature of willful ignorance in contemporary society. They underscore the importance of recognizing and addressing the factors that contribute to information avoidance, especially in an age dominated by digital media. Lilla thanks Khalid for her insights, encapsulating the episode's exploration of the intricate dance between knowledge and ignorance.

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Notable Quotes

• Mark Lilla (01:30): “Is ignorance actually bliss?”

• Asma Khalid (02:33): “We've all met people like this, someone who can't let their curiosity go.”

• Asma Khalid (03:39): “There's great distrust now between the two groups, and we know all about that.”

• Asma Khalid (04:13): “Incentive to sort of build walls against all of this or to group yourself among, like, friends.”

• Asma Khalid (05:12): “The will to know and the will not to know is within all of our heads.”

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Key Takeaways

• Dual Dispositions: Humans possess both the desire to seek information and the inclination to avoid certain truths.

• Societal Impact: Willful ignorance is exacerbated by societal divides and social media’s role in creating echo chambers.

• Information Avoidance: Critical areas like health and mortality are common subjects of information avoidance.

• Digital Age Challenges: The accessibility of information online can lead to deliberate disengagement and selective ignorance.

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Mark Lilla's "Ignorance and On Wanting Not to Know" offers a profound examination of why individuals and societies choose to remain uninformed and the consequences that follow. This episode of NPR's Book of the Day serves as a compelling introduction to the book's themes, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the perpetual tension between knowledge and ignorance.

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Timestamps:

• 01:30 – Introduction to Mark Lilla’s book and the central question of ignorance.
• 02:33 – Discussion on individual curiosity and information-seeking behaviors.
• 03:39 – Exploration of societal distrust and educational divides.
• 04:13 – The influence of social media on information consumption and ignorance.
• 05:12 – Examination of specific information types people tend to avoid.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. I remember when I was just starting here at NPR as an intern and then attempt being broke as hell. It was my first time really living on my own and rent was way more expensive than I thought it would be. And I specifically remember never wanting to check my bank account because to not know how small that number was somehow made me feel more free, more comfortable than to know the cold hard truth. You can see this incentive structure play out in fascinating ways, particularly in politics, in Mark Lilla's book Ignorance and On Wanting not to Know. Lilla is a historian at Columbia University. And the book is kind of an interrogation of human nature and the search for truth. And in this conversation with NPR's Asma Khalid, they talk about how there is willful ignorance on both sides of the political aisle. That's ahead.

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[Mark Lilla]

Question for you all. Is ignorance actually bliss? Well, we're going to try to figure that out in the next few minutes. A new book by Columbia University professor Mark Lilla breaks down the constant and very human struggle between wanting to know things while also rejecting truths that might challenge us. The book is called Ignorance and Unwanting Not. Mark, welcome to the show.

[Asma Khalid]

Good morning.

[Mark Lilla]

So I've got to ask at the outset here because I'm in the news business and there feels like there is such a desire these days for people to just tune out the news. You know, people say it stresses them out. They they don't have time for it. Are these non news consumers onto something?

[Asma Khalid]

They are. There are all sorts of reasons, for example, to limit your flow of information. And so it certainly can be a good thing to sort of decide who's trustworthy and who's not trustworthy and sometimes just to step back and reorder your thoughts and priorities.

[Mark Lilla]

You write in your book that some people are naturally curious and seek information and some people have little to no desire to ask questions. Are we all prone to both dispositions?

[Asma Khalid]

I think we are. We've all met people like this, someone who can't let their curiosity go. And then there are people who either rightly or wrongly, make the judgment that being curious all the time doesn't help their lives. It just sort of distracts them and that they'll only pay attention when they think it's important. And so they don't treat curiosity as if it's some overriding human virtue. Then there's a third type of person who has a different disposition. And at times, all of us have this temporarily, and that is we just want to shut the windows.

[Mark Lilla]

So there's the personal aspect of not wanting to know, and then there's society at large. What causes a surge in large groups of people not wanting to engage with information, not wanting to engage with facts.

[Asma Khalid]

So when there are large social changes, you can understand that people might just want to stay in place while these things come at them until they figure out what is going on. But what's happening now has to do with the huge gap between our educated caste, you might say, and a less educated cast. And there's great distrust now between the two groups, and we know all about that.

[Mark Lilla]

I have often wondered if you see a role for social media in. In how we think about information.

[Asma Khalid]

In fact, everything is accessible all the time, and so the incentive to sort of build walls against all of this or to group yourself among, like, friends. And I suppose you've seen this on both sides, the willful ignorance of Trump followers who ignore the facts, for instance, that he contradicts himself. But on the other side, you know, the reports that have come out the past couple days about the way that the Biden administration kept from the press the health status of President Biden. So, you know, we all have, it's always available, that kind of willful ignorance.

[Mark Lilla]

Mark, I want to know, though, are there certain types of information that most people do not want to know and that they are more susceptible to saying, yeah, I'm fine being ignorant about that.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, one of those things is our medical condition if we get sick, and certainly also mortality. And so we both want to know and don't want to know what our medical condition is. And in fact, many of the things in life are like that. You know, as I try to point out in the book, the will to know and the will not to know is within all of our heads. And there are often situations where both of them are at play. And understandably.

[Mark Lilla]

Mark Lilla is the author of Ignorance and Bliss on Wanting not to Know. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Asma Khalid]

Thanks for having me.

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