'The Golden Road' and 'The Lucky Ones' examine India's ancient and recent history

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: Exploring India's Past and Present

Episode: 'The Golden Road' and 'The Lucky Ones' Examine India's Ancient and Recent History
Release Date: May 16, 2025
Host: Andrew Limbong, with contributions from Scott Simon and Hirina Dipo Fernandez

In this compelling episode of NPR's Book of the Day, hosts delve into two pivotal books that shed light on India's profound historical legacy and its contemporary societal challenges. William Dalrymple discusses his new work, The Golden Road: How Ancient India Transformed the World, while Zahra Chaudhary shares her memoir, The Lucky Ones, detailing her harrowing experiences during anti-Muslim violence in Gujarat. The episode masterfully intertwines ancient contributions with modern-day struggles, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of India's multifaceted narrative.

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Ancient India’s Global Legacy: The Golden Road with William Dalrymple

The Golden Road: A Historical Overview

William Dalrymple’s The Golden Road serves as an extensive exploration of India's historical influence on the world. According to Dalrymple, “India is a crucial economic fulcrum and civilizational empire” (02:03). He emphasizes that India's contributions extend far beyond commonly recognized philosophies, such as Buddhism and Hinduism, delving into areas like mathematics and astronomy.

India's Contributions to Modern Civilization

Dalrymple highlights the significance of India in shaping global mathematics: “India is also the source of the number system we all use. In the West, we call it Arabic numbers because the west got it from the Arabs, but the Arabs got it from the Indians” (02:14). This insight underscores the foundational role India played in the development of algebra, algorithms, and the concept of zero—integral components of today's technological and scientific advancements.

Overcoming Colonial Narratives

The historian addresses the obscured recognition of India's contributions due to colonial narratives: “During the colonial phase of India's history, when the Victorian British ran down the subtlety and brilliance of Indian learning” (03:15). Dalrymple critiques historical figures like Macaulay, who dismissed Indian literature and scholarship, contributing to a lingering western ignorance about India's true impact.

Monsoon Winds and Maritime Networks

Dalrymple explains how India's geographical positioning facilitated its role as a maritime hub: “India lying under Tibet is the beneficiary of an extraordinary, unique wind system” (04:16). The monsoon winds enabled extensive trading networks, allowing Indian merchants to establish communities across East Africa, the Red Sea, Singapore, and Burma, thereby disseminating Indian culture, goods, and ideas widely.

Buddhism and Sanskrit’s Spread

The conversation shifts to the dissemination of Indian religions and languages: “Buddhism was a historical figure who lived in the mid 5th century BC... and his ideas spread out in about 500 years all over Asia” (05:15). Dalrymple notes the unparalleled spread of Indian philosophies compared to the reverse, highlighting the pervasive influence of Buddhism, Hinduism, and the Sanskrit language across Asia.

India's Moment in the Modern World

Dalrymple poses a reflective question: “Has India's moment come once again? What sort of India will it be?” (07:20). He expresses optimism about India's economic future but also cautions against authoritarian tendencies that could stifle the very openness that historically fueled its creativity and global influence.

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Experiencing Anti-Muslim Violence: The Lucky Ones with Zahra Chaudhary

A Memoir of Survival and Resilience

Zahra Chaudhary's The Lucky Ones offers a poignant, first-hand account of the devastating anti-Muslim violence that erupted following a mysterious train fire in Gujarat in 2002. Chaudhary recounts the intense fear and chaos that ensued: “We had been hearing rumors that they were usually followed by mobs who would come in and murder and massacre people” (12:31).

The Human Toll and Government Accountability

Chaudhary grapples with the alarming discrepancy in reported casualty figures and the apparent inaction of authorities: “The official figure initially was above 2000. Eventually it was brought down to 1200... it really sounded like all of the state was on fire and it was really thousands of lives upended” (09:20). She questions the government's failure to protect its citizens, especially in a city as divided as Ahmedabad.

Personal Stories Amidst Chaos

Through vivid storytelling, Chaudhary illustrates the personal impact of the pogrom on her family. One gripping moment occurs when police officers arrive at her building: “The two policemen were trying to break open the gates so that they could come in” (12:31). Her father's courage in defusing the situation and the mutual support between families exemplify the resilience amidst adversity.

The Hindu-Muslim Divide

Chaudhary reflects on the historical coexistence between Hindus and Muslims in her upbringing: “We had exposure to all of this diversity that India can hold” (15:11). She emphasizes that the pre-existing harmony was abruptly shattered by orchestrated violence, a narrative she attributes to lingering colonial-era “divide and conquer” strategies.

Narendra Modi’s Role and Contemporary Implications

Addressing the political dimensions, Chaudhary critiques Prime Minister Narendra Modi's ascendancy despite his controversial past: “I think that’s a post-colonial society wanting so much to rush into the next century... the divide and rule policies of the British have never left” (13:53). She laments how Modi's authoritarian stance enables continued targeting of minorities, questioning the broader societal and political motivations behind such leadership.

The Path Forward

Despite the trauma, Chaudhary remains hopeful about healing and societal reconciliation: “Writing this book was my act of reckoning with that fear, looking it in the eye and seeing the immense harm it can do” (17:32). She underscores the importance of confronting historical wounds to foster a more inclusive and unified India.

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Conclusion

This episode of NPR's Book of the Day eloquently bridges India's illustrious past with its turbulent present. Through William Dalrymple’s exploration of ancient influences and Zahra Chaudhary’s intimate memoir, listeners gain a nuanced perspective on India's enduring legacy and the urgent social issues it faces today. The discussion not only celebrates India's contributions to the world but also calls for reflection and action to address its internal divisions and strive towards a more harmonious future.

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Notable Quotes:

• William Dalrymple on Indian philosophies: “Over half the world today lives in places that once were or are now strongly influenced by ideas that came out of India” (02:14).

• Zahra Chaudhary on the aftermath of the pogrom: “What we've ended up doing to ourselves is twisting and warping numbers just to sort of diminish the sort of damage this has done on our own psyche” (09:20).

• Zahra Chaudhary on societal division: “We've not bought into that idea. We still believe in this country for all, which is why we continue to fight for it” (17:15).

This rich dialogue not only informs but also inspires listeners to explore these critical narratives further, fostering a deeper understanding of India's role both historically and in contemporary society.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. India is in the news these days for trading blows with its neighbor Pakistan. It's a delicate situation and the outcome, whatever it is, will have far reaching effects for the people there and us in the States. But we thought it'd be a good time to take a step back and look at two books that examine the history of India, both long term and short. In a bit, we'll hear about a memoir about experiencing anti Muslim violence in India firsthand. But first, let's take a long look back. The book the Golden How Ancient India Transformed the World is a tallying of the number of things we encounter in the world today that trace their roots back to ancient India. Historian William Dahl Rumpel talks to npr. Scott Simon about Buddhism, heliocentrism and the number zero after the break.

[Scott Simon]

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Before the Silk Road, there was India's golden road, says historian William Dalrymple. It was a route that ran from the Roman Empire in the west to Korea and Japan in the Far east, enriching the world with spices, gems, oils, ivory, language, goods, literature, science and people, faiths and ideas that change the world. His new book is the Golden How Ancient India Transformed the World. And William Dal Replin joins us now from Houston on his U.S. book tour. Thanks so much for being with us.

[William Dalrymple]

A great pleasure, Scott. Thank you for having me on.

[Scott Simon]

You call India a crucial economic fulcrum and civilizational empire. How did it influence the world? Or maybe I should say, where do we begin telling how it influenced the world?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, most obviously in its philosophies and ideas. Over half the world today lives in places that once were or are now strongly influenced by ideas that came out of India, ideas like Buddhism and Hinduism, but more universally, and I think people don't realize this, India is also the source of the number system we all use. In the West. We call it Arabic numbers because the west got it from the Arabs, but the Arabs got it from the Indians. Without it we wouldn't have any of the higher mathematics that we all live on today. No algebra, no algorithms, no binary and.

[Scott Simon]

The decimal system and zero, for that matter.

[William Dalrymple]

Exactly. And I think over the last 40 or 50 years, people have come to realize that how many of these ideas came to Europe from the Arab world. But I think people are still largely unaware in the west that all these things came originally from India.

[Scott Simon]

What do you think has made many of us in the west unaware of India's contribution?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, I think the colonial phase of India's history, when the Victorian British ran down the subtlety and brilliance of Indian learning, people like macaulay in the 19th century used to say that a single shelf of a good English library is worth all the native literature of India and Arabia. And although we laugh at those attitudes today, the import of those ideas still exist in our education system. Most of us, for example, will have learned about Pythagoras or Archimedes in his bath, shouting eureka. By our seventh or eighth birthday. But very few people will know, for example, that Aryabhata came up with the exact circumference of the Earth, the distance from the Earth to the moon, and the fact that the Earth is heliocentric, that we travel around the sun. This was discovered in India thousand years before Galileo. And it's astonishing, really, that in the 21st century that so few people are aware of this.

[Scott Simon]

How did India's central position kind of open it to the world centuries ago?

[William Dalrymple]

It's the meteorology. It's the winds. India lying under Tibet, is the beneficiary of an extraordinary, unique wind system, which means that when Tibet freezes over in winter, the winds blow in, and when it thaws in summer, the winds blow out. And this means that uniquely in India, you have the monsoon winds which blow in one direction six months of the year very fast, and then reverse cells and blow back in again. So this is a kind of unique gift that means that India has always been the center of a maritime trading network. And why? Historically, we've always had big Indian trading communities from the west coast, in places like East Africa and Aden and the Red Sea. And on the east coast of India, you've had Tamil and other east coast Bengalis in Singapore and in Burma.

[Scott Simon]

Tell us about the Indian influence on faith and belief, beginning with the birth of Buddhism.

[William Dalrymple]

Today, we often think of Buddhism as being a very otherworldly religion. And, you know, in Hollywood movies, Buddhist monks are sort of symbols of mysticism and intense spirituality. But early Buddhist monasteries were banks which lent merchants money where Merchants would shelter. We have inscriptions from Indian sailors who report repaying the money lent to them by Buddhist monks and giving gifts to the monasteries as interest. So this extraordinary expansion of Buddhism. Buddha was a historical figure who lived in the mid 5th century BC in the Gangetic plain on the banks of the Ganges. And his ideas spread out in about 500 years all over Asia. So there's this whole world which is totally transformed in every direction around India. And that's not true in reverse. You know, you don't find a Chinese philosophy taking over India, but you do find an Indian philosophy, Buddhism taking over China and other Indian ideas of Hinduism, Sanskrit taking over Southeast Asia. In fact, there's this whole world called by some scholars the Sanskrit Cosmopolis, where you have this Indian sacred language, Sanskrit being used all the way from Afghanistan all the way to Bali in Indonesia, right through.

[Scott Simon]

Let me ask you to tell us how you've explored some of this thinking and this history. You didn't just look this up on the Internet, did you?

[William Dalrymple]

I didn't. This was five years of work. I've traveled all over Southeast Asia and this, I have to say, is stuff that specialist scholars know about, but in an odd way, it hasn't reached popular consciousness. I think it's time that changed. India is one of the world's most important civilizations. Within a few years, it'll be again the third biggest economy in the world. And it's time that we learned this stuff and gave it the honor and the centrality in human civilization that it holds. But we remain in the west very ignorant about it.

[Scott Simon]

You pose the question toward the end of your book, has India's moment come once again? And you raise this question too. What sort of India will it be?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, that's the great question. I'm very optimistic economically about India, but who knows what sort of India we will see. I mean, where India has now got a very authoritarian right wing government. It doesn't always treat dissent with warmth, shall we say. And I think history shows that India is at its most creative when it is most open, when it is willing to receive and give ideas as well as put them out. And for that we must remain hopeful.

[Scott Simon]

William Dalrymple's new book, the Golden How Ancient India Transformed the World. Thank you so much for being with us.

[William Dalrymple]

Thank you, Scott. Great pleasure.

[Scott Simon]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less and all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text and nationwide coverage. See for [e-mail] Switch In 2002, there.

[Andrew Limbong]

Was a fire on a train filled with Hindu pilgrims in Gujarat, a state on India's west coast. 59 people died and to this day nobody knows who or what started the fire. But what's well reported is the huge wave of retaliatory violence. Hindu leaders blamed Muslims which led to waves of mobs killing Muslim people. Zahra Chaudhary lived through that time. Her memoir, the Lucky Ones is a first hand telling of what it was like to be a Muslim in India at the time. She talked about the book to Hirinas Dipo Fernandez and started by explaining exactly how many Muslims were killed in the aftermath.

[Zahra Chaudhary]

I think that has become the sort of eternal evasive question over 22 years because what we've ended up doing to ourselves is twisting and warping numbers just to sort of diminish the sort of damage this has done on our own psyche. So the official figure initially was above 2000. Eventually it was brought down to 1200. Now the BJP government and its allies like to say 700 or so, but, but really if you were there bearing witness and hearing testimonies, it sounded like all of the state was on fire and it was really thousands of lives upended.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

And there were so many horrific stories that happened during this time and Muslim areas were locked down. You didn't leave your tiny flat for three months while this violence raged. Why didn't the authorities do more to stop it?

[Zahra Chaudhary]

That is a question that has haunted all of us and it's a question that we continue to look at the government with. Why wouldn't the state protect its own citizens? Why is it that a city that is sort of divided by this river, where one side of the city is Hindu and new and modern and has all this infrastructure and the other side is essentially a Muslim ghetto? Why is it that one side was not protected and the other side life just went on as normal? These are the sort of haunting questions that this book is trying to answer of what is this preferential treatment for a majority? What is, why is a minority looked at with this sort of question of their loyalty? We're not an insignificant minority. We're India's largest minority and that is 200 million humans. That is not a Number you can take easily.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

You tell powerful stories of how this murderous pogrom impacted your family particularly. You were a young teenager set to take some high stakes school exams. And then suddenly, this begins. First, just tell us how close the mobs got to you and your family.

[Zahra Chaudhary]

Did you fear for your life all the time. I think that experience of being stuck in an apartment with only a balcony on which you could step out and breathe. And even then you saw skies around you just filled with columns of smoke. And that smoke was not just fires. It was humans being burned alive.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

You know, one close call that your family had that you talk about in the book was when angry men arrived at your building gates in the middle of the night. And your father and an elder woman, pant auntie managed to send them away. And you write that you and your sister return after that to the little mattress that you share. You lay in the darkness and you intertwine your fingers. And that image, Zara just really got me of two young traumatized girls comforting each other. It seemed like that was all you had. And adults didn't hug you or hold you. They didn't check in to see how you were doing. It seemed a bit like emotionally you were on your own. And I'm wondering, as you look back, how you dealt with that.

[Zahra Chaudhary]

I mean, I think that's what happens in genocide or in a pogrom or in ethnic cleansing, right? We each eventually become for our own selves and we have to do what we can to protect our bodies, let alone the scar, the sleeves on our souls. But those were not only random men. Those were two cops. And the two policemen were trying to break open the gates so that they could come in. And we had been hearing rumors that they were usually followed by mobs who would come in and murder and massacre people. And so my father goes down with this woman who's Hindu and who was the widow of a late cop. And it's that sort of illustration of our coexisting lives together, which were now suddenly being torn apart by this event.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

You know, we can't continue talking about this without looking at the current Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi. He was the chief minister of your state, Gujarat, like the governor, where all these massacres were happening. And there was so much evidence that Modi not only did nothing to stop it, but also encouraged it. And after this pogrom, he rece some flack, even denied a visa. He's banned from entering the United States, yet he goes on to become one of India's most popular leaders ever is embraced by successive US Presidents. How is he able to skirt accountability and in fact go on to India's top job?

[Zahra Chaudhary]

That's the big question that I'm really trying to excavate. I think I'm trying to understand why a post colonial society want so much to rush into the next century and rush into the arms of neoliberalism and modernity and, you know, to have big cities and flashy flyovers and all of these promises that were given that we're willing to then drink the poison that comes in. Where the divide and rule, the divide and conquer policies of the British have never left and we're still being turned into, you know, against each other. And we're living these separate lives in these ghettos and urban environments just so that one half can have modernity. I think it's those who have the safety of still having jobs and being upper class and upper caste in these societies who are a lot more vulnerable to the appeal of a strongman. And then there's those who really fear for their very existence under those men.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

The Hindu Muslim divide is really personal in your telling of this pogrom, yet you also tell stories of harmonious communal living prior to this, as you said, Pantantius Hindu lived in a building that had many Muslims. Did you grow up mixing only with Muslims, Hindus with Hindus?

[Zahra Chaudhary]

Not at all. Which is why the book is titled as it is. I think there are many things that make us lucky, but I think the one thing that really stood out for my sister and I growing up was that we had exposure to all of this diversity that India can hold. And there's two specific instances which is really what illustrates sort of Hindu Muslim harmony for me. Of course there's the family that eventually help us relocate and rehabilitate us. And these are friends of my dad's from grad school, from college, who are Hindu. And then there is my school teacher, who's my history teacher and she's also Hindu. She also happens to be the wife of a cop who's serving at the time during the pogrom. And she calls us up one night while we're in lockdown and have very little food left and. And she simply says, are you okay? Do you need vegetables? Can I send milk? And it's that tiny act of being seen that means so much to a 16 year old kid at that point.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

You know, I have to say, Zara, it made me wonder why there weren't more people in your life in the Hindu community who weren't outraged by what was happening. And I got that you as a teenager would just as puzzled about that as well.

[Zahra Chaudhary]

To understand that, you have to understand that Ahmedabad is one of the first, earliest cities in India that was sort of used as a laboratory to test out this Hindu Muslim divide and to see how far the violence could be pushed. Today, that is being replicated in a lot of Indian cities because we see that sort of rising violence against minorities. But ours was very much a city that divided itself along the river into this east and west side. But even beyond that, I think that this idea of, you know, Hindus and Muslims are just always at each other's throats is a very British idea. And it's those of us who have bought into it that still think that that's the way it needs to be for most Muslims, for Christians, for Sikhs. We've not bought into that idea. We still believe in this country for all, which is why we continue to fight for it.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

And, you know, today in India and over the last decade under the rule of Prime Minister Modi, we have seen a rise in the targeting of Muslims in all kinds of different ways. It's a really dangerous moment for you to put this book out, Zara. Are you afraid?

[Zahra Chaudhary]

I have been afraid since 2002, and if anything, writing this book was my act of reckoning with that fear, looking it in the eye and seeing the immense harm it can do to me and my family, but also realizing how much work it could do in repairing these broken relationships in my country and my society. And when I put those things side by side and hand in hand, it feels like a very small price to pay.

[Hirina Dipo Fernandez]

My conversation with author Zahra Chaudhary about her book the Lucky Ones. You can find an [e-mail] that's it.

[Andrew Limbong]

For this week on NPR's Book of the Day. Let us know what you think. You can write to us at Book OF the [e-mail] I'm Andrew Limbong. The podcast is produced by Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan. Our founding editor is Petra Maher. The show elements for this week were produced and edited by Todd Munt, Emiko Tamagawa, Melissa Gray, Samantha Balaban, de Parvaz, Ryan Bank, Gabe o' Connor, Martin Patience, Michaela Rodriguez and Thomas Daniellian. Yolanda Sanguini is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.

[Scott Simon]

This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month shop plans [e-mail] switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Cunard inviting you to sail in luxurious style to over 250 destinations with Queen Mary 2, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth and their newest ship, Queen Anne. Enjoy spacious accommodations, fine dining, award winning entertainment and exceptional service, all with a British flair. While on board, join Cunard's Insights Enrichment Program. For thought provoking stories from famous faces and notable guests, visit cunard.com NPR support for NPR and the following message come from the Pew Charitable Trusts sharing about the state of housing in America on the after the Fact podcast [e-mail] afterthefact.