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NPR's Book of the Day
'The Serviceberry' and 'Birding to Change the World' draw lessons from nature
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- [00:02]
Andrew Limbong
Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Alright, as I write this, my X timeline is flooded with people talking about, you know what, it actually doesn't matter because by the time you hear this, something new in the news will have happened that will overshadow whatever it is that's going on now. So today I want to rescue you from the hyperspeed of the news cycle and bring you two interviews that are about slowing down and looking to the outdoors for inspiration. In a bit, we'll hear from a journalist and activist whose life was radically changed after she took up birding. But first, the botanist Robin Wall Kimmerer's book Braiding Sweetgrass became a slow burn hit. It's a book about gleaning life lessons from plants. And now Kimmerer's out with a follow up titled the Serviceberry. And in this interview with NPR's Ari Shapiro, she talks about fighting back against an economy that begs us to consume more. That's coming up.
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Ari Shapiro
Since she's a botanist, let's say Robin Wall Kimmerer's last book bloomed slowly. It was called Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants. A small nonprofit press published the book in 2013. It spread by word of mouth and seven years later it hit the New York Times bestseller list in paperback. It has now sold more than 2 million copies and the author was recognized with a MacArthur genius grant. Professor Kimmerer, who is a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, has followed up Braiding Sweetgrass with a new book length essay that explores similar themes. It's called the Service Abundance and Reciprocity in the Natural World. So good to have you with us.
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
It's an honor to talk with you.
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Ari Shapiro
The Serviceberry begins with a scene of harvest. So tell us what you were doing and what went through your mind.
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
I was harvesting service berries, also known as June berries, and they were so abundant I was picking them by the hands full and really got to Thinking about kind of the economy of abundance and what the generosity of a tree, like service berries, could teach us about our own human economies.
- [02:55]
Ari Shapiro
Let's dig into that phrase, economy of abundance, because at the heart of this book, you, a botanist, are making an economic argument. What is the shift that you're encouraging people to make both conceptually and in their actual lives?
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
Yeah, you know, what I'm really interested in is thinking about how could we imagine a human economy with a kind of currency that works like ecological economies, the economies of nature? And when we think about the extractive capitalist economy that we're all enmeshed in, it breaks a lot of the rules of how natural landscapes are organized. And so it's really an inquiry to say, could we imagine a human economy which is based on reciprocity rather than extraction? Could we imagine an economy which is circular and regenerative rather than an industrial pipeline, et cetera? So it's kind of an examination of biomimicry, of what could we learn from the economies of nature?
- [04:08]
Ari Shapiro
And it does exist in some places in our lives. As you say, this doesn't have to come entirely from our imagination. What are some places in the human world where we can see this in practice today?
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
Well, you know, gift economies are quite well known and widespread in indigenous cultures, particularly traditional peoples. So there are many examples, both in my Potawatomi cultures and potluck cultures, in Polynesian cultures, that use the gift economy in order to distribute goods and services without a market. But, you know, I think there are also lots of examples in our everyday life if we really pay attention. You know, one that I like to think about is things like little free libraries. That's a way of sharing literature with your whole community. Right. And then we scale that to public libraries. So the notion is we don't all have to own everything. Abundance comes from sharing what we have.
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Ari Shapiro
As I read it, I wondered if public radio could be considered a gift economy, but that probably shows my own bias.
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
You know, you're absolutely right. We just finished pledge week here, and I was thinking that the whole time I thought I should have included and PR as a gift economy. It totally is.
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Ari Shapiro
You write, recognizing enoughness is a radical act in an economy that is always urging us to consume more. What does that mean in practice, to recognize enoughness?
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
Well, you know, I think of it as a radical act because of all of the messages that we get from corporate America telling us, oh, if you buy this, you'll be more successful, you'll be happier. You just can't Live without this. Right? There are all these messages that tell us, consume, consume, consume. In fact, you know, we are often referred to not as citizens, but as consumers. And so this idea of putting the brakes on consumption is really important, particularly when we know that climate change is a product of hyper consumption. Right? The more we consume, the more damage that we're doing to the planet. And so if we can start to put the brakes on consumption through practices like gratitude and reciprocity, we say, you know, I already have everything that I need. I really don't, I really don't need to buy that next thing. Instead I'm going to invest in relationship, I'm going to invest in belonging rather than belongings. And you know, I think it's good for, I know it's good for the planet, but it's also good for us.
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Ari Shapiro
As somebody who is a trained botanist, how did trained economists respond when you approached them and started to describe some of these ideas?
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
I was really pleased that they listened with me and could imagine, in fact, in many cases are already engaging in this idea of biomimicry, of how can we change our economic systems so that they, they don't degrade the very life support systems that all life depends on. So ecological economists are already thinking this direction and working in really creative ways that as a botanist I, I can only barely understand. And so it was exciting to me to know that the economics community is, is thinking about this, at least some of them.
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Ari Shapiro
Has it been surprising for you to see the way these ideas that you put forward in such a humble, small way, initially in 2013 have just, I mean, forgive the metaphor, but spread like a tenacious plant?
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
Yes, it is to me again, really uplifting and gives me a lot of hope because, you know, what I hear from readers practically every day is this real longing to live in a world that values that native species around us, that values the natural world. And it was as if braiding sweetgrass and the work of so many others gave people a permission to passionately love the world and to act on its behalf. One of the things that is most moving to me is that people will write to me and say, you issued an invitation to reciprocity, to give back to the earth. And so here's what I'm doing. There are people who are, you know, changing their classrooms, who are changing their careers, who are changing their landscapes. And to me it represents a movement in which people are reclaiming their role as healers of land, not just despoilers of land.
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Ari Shapiro
Robin Wall kimmerer's latest book is the Service, Abundance and Reciprocity in the Natural World. So good to talk to you than.
- [09:31]
Andrew Limbong
Thank you.
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Robin Wall Kimmerer
Thank you Ari.
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- [09:52]
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Andrew Limbong
Discover more@viking.com looking to nature for inspiration can feel a bit frou. Frou navel gazy maybe. But Trish okay's memoir, Birding to Change the World gets into how birding led to actual tangible good in the world. Here's her interview with Here Now's Robin Young.
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Trish O'Kane
Are you looking for a break from the news? How about birding? Maybe don't think about birds. Trish O'Kane didn't used to think about them at all. For years she was a busy human rights investigative journalist, a teacher at Loyola. Then, after Hurricane Katrina destroyed her home and so many lives, she heard a bird call which launched her second life as a ornithologist, then a third as an environmental activist saving green space. A fourth, she created a birding program for little kids and a birding class for students at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and then later at the University of Vermont. Every year, the kids becoming a flock, the older mentoring the younger. Then she wrote a memoir. And what's this? The Burlington Choral Society and Orchestra put together a program of bird related songs based on her book. Trish O'Kane's memoir is burning to Change the World. She is now a senior lecturer in environmental justice at the University of Vermont. Boy, Trish, we leave you alone for one second and you add another layer to your story. Hi.
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Robin Young
Hi Robin. Thank you.
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Trish O'Kane
And this program reminds us, you know, how composers love birds. But I want to go back to how this all started. You did deep human rights investigative journalism in Nicaragua covering the Sandinistas. I think you interpreted once for visiting Jimmy Carter.
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Robin Young
That's correct, yes.
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Trish O'Kane
Researched hate crimes back in the US for the Southern Poverty Law Center. But then Katrina in New Orleans, it seemed it just completely threw you off your axis.
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Robin Young
Well, it wasn't just the devastation itself. It was realizing that the reason the hurricane was so severe was because the waters of the Gulf were hotter than they had been before, and hot water fuels hurricanes. And Robin, at that time, I didn't know anything about climate change or climate science. And I was just horrified that this, this is going to be the future.
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Trish O'Kane
You were also, it sounds to me, you know, a little bit in shock, numb, like everybody was. And then in this eerily silent New Orleans, there was a sound that changed your life.
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Robin Young
Yes. Woke up to silence. I'm not hearing traffic, I'm not hearing neighbors, because so many thousands of people were dead or hadn't returned. And then I hear a clicking and I look out the window and it's this beautiful red cardinal. And I realized, oh, my God, there's something alive out there. It's something beautiful and wild. And that was the beginning.
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Trish O'Kane
Yeah, it was the beginning of birding. You say suddenly the birds seem like the most precious being on Earth. You want to study, get your PhD.
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Robin Young
Yes. I wanted to know what happened and how am I a part of this.
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Trish O'Kane
Right. So you and your husband Jim move to Madison, Wisconsin. You're gonna pursue this environmental studies PhD, you study ornithology, and you live right on Warner Park. People in the area know this, but it's this gorgeous public space with a.
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Robin Young
Wetland in the middle and meadows and woods and all kinds of birds. And we started going into it every day. It just saved our souls.
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Trish O'Kane
Well, and it was set for development. And here's where you kind of become like the Norma Rae, if Norma Rae were in a wetland, but an activist who didn't want to be, you know, the white savior in this diverse neighborhood. Talk about how you approach this with the people you lived with.
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Robin Young
First of all, listen and spend a lot of time in the park talking to neighbors and, you know, knocking on doors and walking with people. And I found a lot of neighbors who depended on the park, as I did, for their mental health. And this was a lower income neighborhood. I mean, the park was their wealth, our wealth. And then I started reading city studies about my neighborhood and realizing, well, the city's trying to do the development for good reasons, because there are some serious socioeconomic issues. But is developing the park going to solve them? I didn't think so, and a lot of other people didn't think so.
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Trish O'Kane
And you are now presenting before a parks commission. One day, I think when you're going for a big presentation, you walk through the park and another bird inspires you. I just want to listen for a second. We've got some sound here of the rare bittern. It's like a glugging frog. Let's listen. Those are the peepers in the back. But that's the bittern.
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Robin Young
Yes.
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Trish O'Kane
And there's another hosanna moment. You're walking to do this big presentation, and you see this rare bird.
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Robin Young
Yeah. Well, this was the first meeting of this type I'd ever been to. I had no idea how we'd be received. We were coming in complaining about the city plan, and I just thought, you know. Well, I'm just. I know this bird's incredible. I know it's a rare sighting in an urban setting like this. I'm just going to talk about it. And as soon as I mentioned, I saw I had seen an American biddern in Warner park. That morning, the president of the commission sat straight up and looked at me. And then he said, I have that bird's call on my cell phone. And he tried to play it in the public meeting. And people were like, what is going on? And I thought, oh, my God, this guy is a birder. Maybe we have a chance.
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Trish O'Kane
Yeah, you and your neighbors end up winning. But you go speak to a city councilor, and this is someone you want her to understand. You're not a Patagonia clad birder. You care about the neighborhood, and she's the one who told you, well, what about all the children that live around it and don't ever get to go to the park?
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Robin Young
Yes. You know, don't just complain. You're a graduate student. Why can't you do something positive in this park? And that was the beginning of the Birding to Change the World program, a children's program.
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Trish O'Kane
And then you layer on that having college kids take a class where they could mentor them. What did you learn, Robyn?
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Robin Young
I'm still learning. I'm bringing the kids tomorrow to campus for our end of the semester party. I guess the most basic thing is how much we need relationships. And every week I get to watch, you know, my students walking hand in hand, literally, with these little kids, fourth and fifth graders, chattering away and learning from each other.
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Trish O'Kane
At one point, I think some of the little kids from the neighborhood showed up without the right socks and shoe wear. The college students were. Well, who would send their kids out like this?
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Robin Young
Yes, that's right.
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Trish O'Kane
You did a lesson. You had them account, you know, add up the cost of all of their outdoor clothing.
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Robin Young
Yeah, well, I added it up in class, what I was wearing that day, and I was wearing $600 worth of clothes and boots. And I said to my students, you know, add it up, make your list. And then they did. And they were shocked. And I said, okay, let's look at what, you know, salaries are minimum wage, and some of our kids, parents are working two jobs and they have three or four kids. How many people can afford a pair of these socks? I just had that conversation with my students this semester here in Burlington. How do kids, how do people get outside if they can't afford this expensive stuff? But one of the things I have my students do, Robin, I learned that, you know, if you reverse the power hierarchy, you really get some magic moments. My students have to do homework. The children assign them two homework questions. It's just hilarious to see my students running around doing their assignment and then turning it in to this kid who's got grades. It immediately while we're in School, a 10 year old.
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Trish O'Kane
Just what are some of the questions they might ask?
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Robin Young
What is the biggest, you know, shark or flower or, you know, how many kinds of cheese are there in the world? But I'll tell you, we had a question this semester from a little boy, very tender question for his mentor, who's male, about crying and, you know, is it okay to cry? And who was the first person to cry? So, I mean, the kids, when they trust their mentor, they'll ask things they wouldn't ask somebody else. So there are these really beautiful exchanges, you know, unexpected.
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Trish O'Kane
Look, how would you tie together all these strands? Birder, teacher, activist. You credit a Jesuit priest, mentor, mentor in Nicaragua.
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Robin Young
Yes, that was Father Javier Garostiaga. Yeah. He said, trish, you don't do what you want to do. You do what your community needs you to do. I. I thought about that a lot in Warner park because my first instinct wouldn't have been to do a children's program because I have no children and I had no experience teaching children, much less outside. But it was the city councilor said, we need this. And then it was like, okay, well, maybe I could try. Javier's voice was in my head. He's in my conscience telling me, you know, you should try this. You should do this, because they're asking for it.
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Trish O'Kane
And then what you learned from the birds.
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Robin Young
Yes, I was out this morning looking for a snowy owl because there are arctic owls that come down this time of year. Yeah, I go out or I just sit in my backyard because why? Because it's my medicine, Robyn. It's my mental health. It's also the news. Right. I tell my students the news is not just what's in the media. There's news out there every day. As soon as you open your window. You can hear it. What are the birds saying? Go and watch. Go and learn. They're also our teachers and they have news to share.
- [20:03]
Trish O'Kane
We are where we started, which is if you want a break from the screen news, check out the news, you know, maybe right in your backyard. Trish O'Kane, her memoir is Birding to Change the World. And we're going to leave with a little more sound from the other layer to your life, which is that you sing in the Burlington choir. They've adapted your book in this gorgeous program of bird related music. Did you ever see that coming?
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Robin Young
No. I sat in the first rehearsal for that concert in tears thinking never could I have imagined in the ruins of New Orleans that years later I'd be in Vermont in a community choir and they'd be singing about birds because of that hurricane. No, Never could have imagined was beautiful. It was very special.
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Trish O'Kane
Yeah. Thanks so much.
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Robin Young
You're welcome, Robin. Thank you.
- [21:04]
Trish O'Kane
The Burlington Vermont Chorale and Orchestra. Trish O'Kane's memoir is birding to Change the.
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Andrew Limbong
And that's it for this week on NPR's Book of the Day.
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Trish O'Kane
Let us know what you think.
- [21:19]
Andrew Limbong
You can write to us at Book OF the day@npr.org I'm Andrew Limbong. The podcast is produced by Danica Panetta and Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan. Our founding editor is Petra Mayer. The show elements for this week were produced and edited by Avery Keatley, Timby Ermias, Danny Hensel, Ed McNulty, Catherine Fink, Ashley Brown, Hafsa Qureshi, Michaela Rodriguez, Todd Munt, Michael Levitt, Christopher Intagliata and Karen Miller. Medicine Yolanda Sanguini is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.
- [21:57]
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- [22:06]
Trish O'Kane
Trip.
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