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- [00:02]
Andrew Limbong
Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. Today, we've got two books that deal in their own ways with this feeling of not being able to say the thing you want to say, especially if you're a woman. In a bit, we'll hear from comedian, actor and writer Jenny Slate, who has since shed this feeling and now shows up to readings with her own harpist, apparently. But first, Kate Kennedy's memoir, One in a Millennial, is about girl and womanhood in a very specific time period. The Internet is rel relatively new, MTV is still zeitgeisty, and female wants and desires are still dismissed. Kennedy spoke with NPR's Juana Summers about how friendships were key in getting through this time and how the expectations of growing up never quite meshed with the reality that's ahead.
- [00:50]
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- [01:49]
Kate Kennedy
Millennials have experienced an interesting evolution of.
- [01:53]
Stereotypes, starting out in a place that was lazy and titled basement dwelling, and then the mid to late 2010s as saying we killed major industries and economic sectors like paper napkins or low fat yogurt. And then to the 2000s where we kind of have been mocked by Gen Z for like, side parts and skinny jeans.
- [02:11]
That's Kate Kennedy. She's out with a new book called One in a Millennial on friendships, feelings, fangirls and fitting in. Kennedy explores the experience of being a Millennial woman, complete with references to aol, Instant Messenger, Going Out Tops, and the Spice Girls. But she also explores why we Millennials get such a bad rep and where those stereotypes come from. She says, we are a misunderstood generation.
- [02:36]
When I got into the workplace in the early 2010s and people were saying millennials were lazy and entitled. I would notice things like, you know, seeking more work, life balance, being labeled as lazy, or, you know, calling us job hoppers. But when you graduate in the most severe, you know, economic recession since the Great Depression and you've never had a company be loyal to you, of course you're going to look out for your best interests.
- [03:01]
As a fellow Millennial, I found Kennedy's memoir deeply relatable. Even though our life experiences were completely different.
- [03:08]
I wanted to kind of revisit the pop culture and zeitgeisty elements that make us a product of our time and wanted to detail the way we engage with that media and pop culture in real time and kind of reclaim the experiences of our girlhood that were easily written off as frivolous and unimportant.
- [03:25]
Shared experiences of girlhood written off as frivolous. One example, Kennedy gives the iconic 2000s college getting ready RIT known as the pregame.
- [03:35]
It was an interesting time where, you know, for me in college, we would have these all girl get togethers that were to me, electric. They were safe spaces where people would build you up and tell you how hot you looked. And we'd take pictures with our point and shoots dangling from our wrists that almost beautifully, we couldn't post in real time, so we had to be present. And there was a lot of support found within those environments when we were getting ready, when we were building each other up, and, you know, we joke would put up away messages that said things like, live for the nights you'll never remember with the friends you'll never forget. And the joke is I forgot all the parties. The pre games to me are the main event far more than the event we were pregaming for.
- [04:18]
When I was reading the part of your book where you talked about this particular fixture of our millennial life, it immediately made me think back to my days in a sorority at a big state school where I was trying really hard to fit in and not having the greatest time. And I just remember the women that I surrounded myself with being literally life saving in some cases. And I mean, can you talk a little bit about this particular era of female friendships and what they mean and meant to you.
- [04:44]
It's interesting when you're in a situation where people tell you that you're going to have the time of your life, but you don't feel like you are. But you can have good times when you're not having the time of your life. And for me, college was really challenging. I found it destabilizing and I felt a little bit lost without the friends and places that made me who I was. And I think joining a sorority is an interesting thing where Greek life has its many issues that it should have evolved from, but it also provides you a sense of security and makes a big school much smaller. And while I now look back and laugh at, you know, the late nights during recruitment or how many $12t shirts I was forced to pay for, I also acknowledge that without having those close relationships, I'm not sure how I would have gotten by. We were all finding ourselves and supporting each other the best way we could. And the thing you don't know about life is that as you get older, you don't have hours and hours to kill to just watch TV together. You don't get to wake up with all your friends and laugh about the previous night's events. And as your first glimpse of adulthood, you're almost misled to think you'll always get to live and exist with your friends when you get older and everyone's lives divert, it's really never the same. And I think part of my fondness for that period of time is the longing for when we got to spend all of our time together supporting one another.
- [06:11]
There is a thing that you point out over and over again in this book, and it's this idea of self editing that we've been conditioned to do, particularly girls and young women. This idea that we downsize our feelings about the things that we love, particularly when we're talking about traditionally feminine and pop culture related interests, because we want to feel accepted and legitimate. And I have to say, as I was reading your book, it struck me that this is something that I still do today to some degree, because I want to be seen as respected. Where do you think all of that comes from?
- [06:44]
You know, I think that it has even deeper origins when you think about women's interests being labeled as guilty pleasures or romance novels being trashy novels in the book, I say, you know, why did I let people who draft make believe football teams make me believe my interests weren't important? It's not that sports aren't, it's that they're both valid forms of leisure. But feminine, coded interests typically get a harsher edit. And even dating back to the 50s, when, you know, soap operas were getting the most viewership and they were showcasing the economic viability of female audiences, they were the only shows that weren't even reported and reviewed in newspapers because they weren't considered sophisticated enough. And I think that kind of represents the, you know, paradox of how much economic viability there is in feminine related interests, yet how oftentimes they aren't considered sophisticated or important by society. And it's just this interesting experience where in every single context, I found myself self editing, whether it was when I was dating when I was younger or got to the workplace and we were doing Icebreakers and they asked our favorite movie, and I said, how to lose a guy in 10 days. And then I quickly realized, oh, I should have. I should have said Citizen Kane. They're going to use this isolated pop culture reference to project onto my whole personality that I lack depth.
- [08:10]
I want to end this conversation on a topic that you get into late in the book, and that's millennial motherhood. And you teased out something that I don't think we talk about enough. And that's how we. And by we, I mean women in our 20s and 30s are raised and talked to as though the path is really linear. You grow up, you go to college, you meet a partner who's normally a man in this telling, and get married, and then you have kids. And it is all presented as inevitable. But that's not always the case. And the feelings that come along with all of that are so intense and complicated.
- [08:43]
They really are. In the book, I talk about the playground song, you know, the love marriage, baby carriage of it all, and how that is kind of the oversimplified way we look to our futures. And then when there are inevitable complexities with dating and finding a partner and the process of deciding if you want kids and the lack of control you have over if you were even able to have them, among other things. I think it becomes really clear when you get older that these things are not guaranteed. They're a product of both our choices and our chances. And, you know, getting married and having kids may not be something you one desire. And you have to ask yourself, you know, is this something that I really want or something that I always thought I'd have? And two, they're not always within our control. And I find that a lot of women beat themselves up about, you know, their relationship status or the difficulty of getting pregnant or experiencing loss, as if they did something wrong. But I really think so often the tension we're feeling is a departure from our expectations.
- [09:44]
That's Kate Kennedy, host of the podcast Be There in Five. Her memoir, One in a Millennial, is out now. Kate, thank you so much.
- [09:52]
Thank you so much. This was so much fun. And thank you for reading the book and for sharing it with people.
- [10:02]
NPR Sponsor
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- [10:36]
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- [11:07]
Andrew Limbong
Interview was about growing up, this next one is about what it's like when you've actually grown up but still don't quite feel like it. Comedian and actor Jenny Slate's new book Lifeform is an essay collection about being single, finding love, having a kid. And yet, in true Jenny Slate fashion, it's hilarious and weird. She spoke with Hirones Emiko Tamagawa at a live event in Boston. And like I mentioned up top, she showed up with her own harpist. Here's the interview.
- [11:34]
Jenny Slate
This is called True Love Garlic Chicken. I am in a restaurant and what I am eating is mostly the wine. The woman next to me is telling her tablemate about Norway and Stockholm and why it is worth traveling to these places.
- [11:56]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
Don't you want to be accompanied by a harp, like all the time? Just have a harp follow you around?
- [12:01]
Jenny Slate
Yes, but I don't want like a lute. You know what I mean? I don't want like one of those like Shakespeare guys with the like puffy pants and the skinny legs and the like tiny little thing.
- [12:11]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
One thing that I just. And it's really a chicken and the egg question. Did the pieces come first or did you decide to write a book?
- [12:21]
Jenny Slate
I asked to write a book. What came first were just like little visuals basically. And if I could remember or if I had the confidence, I would write them down. And like, it's actually crazy how much confidence it takes to just even write down an idea. At least for me. Like, I get the idea and I want to write it down. But there's also another part that is like, oh, man, it'll feel so bad if this idea is stupid if that was the case.
- [12:45]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
Because the part being single, you have, I'm fine, I'm confident. I'm fine, I'm single, I'm okay. And then you have this other really, like, I'm not okay. I mean, like, what was it like to go back into that space?
- [13:00]
Jenny Slate
I think it's natural instinct for me to be like, how did I get here? I want to know why I am, where I am. Like, what have I been doing to get myself here? Both good and bad. So it was actually really energizing to go back into journals or little things that I was trying to write while I was single that I was like, it was too burdensome to try to finish. I really, really liked it because also, I could see how far I had come. It's sort of like if you go back to your elementary school and you see how small the toilets are, I know you're like, wow, I use the big one now.
- [13:33]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
Boy, were all the door handles really that low?
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Jenny Slate
Totally.
- [13:37]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
But then comes the section of true love, and still again, it's like, how can I be so happy? And at one point you talk about dealing with the low expectations. What was it like to go back into that other? I mean, I'm just going through these spaces to get to where you are.
- [13:55]
Jenny Slate
Yeah. In my last stand up special, I talked a little bit about, like, having to be brave for love and, like, how freaky that is and having to try to just force yourself to make, like, new choices. But I actually was not done talking about that. And, like, I hold or held. I think I held. Now I actually, like, feel okay about it, I think, from writing this book. But, like, a lot of shame over having trust issues of, like, just being so afraid of being, like, betrayed. It was just like this, like, gigantic central fear that, like, someone would keep me in a relationship but, like, be lying to me. It was mine. It wasn't like, you know, something that my lovely partner was doing to me. And it was good to go back and write those things because sometimes even if we get over stuff and we're like, phew, I'm so glad that I'm not like that anymore. We can just not want to talk about it at all. But I feel more comfortable being myself, knowing that I can say out loud, like, yeah, I used to be really scared and had, like, really a big struggle with feelings about self worth. It was like, very good for me to actually lay it all out and be like, this actually just is not as gross as you think it is.
- [14:58]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
It feels like you're trying to understand happiness A number of years back. Things just seem so dark and unhappy and you're doing something you didn't want to do. This seems to be like, I am doing what I want to do and coming to terms with that happiness.
- [15:15]
Jenny Slate
Yeah. The feeling is like, oh, it looks like how it looks, you know, like, oh, it really does. I think at this point, like, the things that I want aren't outrageous to me. I don't, like. I don't know why I always use this example, but, like, I don't want to Jet Ski, you know? Not that if you have a Jet Ski, I don't have an issue with you. I'm just saying, like, I don't, like, actually want, like, big, flashy things. I like what I want to have. Like, I want to, like, be an actor and be able to be in, like, one to two good movies a year, hopefully. And, like, I want to be able to reupholster my couch when I want to, but just forever. I've always felt like there's a little bit of a price to pay. Like, you just shouldn't be allowed. It's just rude to be even privately happy. You know, that was a list of, like, possessions or situations. There used to be this feeling that, like, I could never hold it. Like, I don't have that type of, like, cistern or system in me. A lot of writing this book was clearing things out and just showing myself actually how robust my systems of sustaining personal happiness are. But that they are, like, really weird. But they're the only ones that work, so I have to, like, feed them also.
- [16:28]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
The fears don't quite go away. They have different. I mean, the one thing that really struck me when you're talking about how when your daughter was born and they had to take her away. Yeah, they had some issues and they wanted to deal with that. And you were talking about how I wanted to be everything. I want to be the one to help her, you know, now they're taking her away from me, and it's making you vulnerable, making you afraid.
- [16:58]
Jenny Slate
Yeah. Giving birth to my daughter is something like, I'm really proud of. And I thought it was a very positive experience. And it was also one of the experiences in my life where I feel sorrow because I felt so much shame that it didn't go totally perfectly. And she was in the nicu and I felt horrible about it. And you can hear that and be like, oh, but you got over it. But it's like, no, I thought about it a lot and, like, I had it with me for a long, long time until I wrote the piece that you're talking about, which I decided not to read tonight because sometimes it, like, makes me cry. And then I feel like that's cheesy because it's like, oh, she's crying at her own thing. How profound. She just shed a tear. So I, like, I don't know. But I really, really, really want to be able to prove that things can exist at once.
- [17:45]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
Yeah. You're so vulnerable on the page. Is there part of you that feels like saying, okay, this is the character Jenny that I've created?
- [17:53]
Jenny Slate
No, I think this is what I'm like, okay. It's really important to me as much as I'm like, yes, let's be simultaneous. It's okay to have ambivalence, duality, like multi things. It's cool. But that I don't want to be different people to different people or different person to different people or something. I think I can feel pretty confident that my close friends that are here tonight are like, yeah, she seems like herself. Yeah. There's stuff in here that is personal and that for many people would be in the area of privacy that's private. But this all feels really good to me to be connected and to be consistently myself, because I just think it would be really, really bad to know that people thought you were one way, but you're actually something else right now.
- [18:38]
Hirones Emiko Tamagawa
You have a whole new life form to worry about. Do you still struggle with having those fears sort of pop up?
- [18:45]
Jenny Slate
Yeah, I think my old fears. I'm so happy to say that a lot of things that I was afraid of maybe five years ago, I'm really not anymore. It's great to feel safe in your life. It's great to feel safe that you're, like, worthy of respect and you're given it, you know, like, that's lovely. But there are things that I'm really, really scared of. They're like, they feel so much larger now. Like, I don't really understand what's, like, going on in culture. Like, I'm like, what is TikTok? I've never been on it for the first time. I, like, have this sense of, like, what if I'm on a super old ship? And, like, you know that sound in movies, like, with old ships, where you just, like, hear the wood creak, you know, like, this is like, creaking in the middle of the ocean. Like, I'm like, am I completely, like, obviously we're all here tonight. Like, this is good. Everything's, like happening. I don't have, like, massive career concerns, but it's more of a feeling of like, do I still know who to perform for? Like, what's going on out there? Like, how do I connect if I don't want to do TikTok, if I don't, like, want to? Like, I'm not really into that. Am I allowed to, like, still be here? Like, I feel afraid of disconnection. So I have fears and gigantic concerns about, like, does my daughter eat enough vegetables? You know, like, I'll try to tally up, like, did she have enough, like, broccoli and avocados can, like, make me faint? Like, I just want the best for her. Yeah, the fears are bigger and they're just like, way harder to figure out. And I am a very fearful person. But the other side of that is like, I know how brave I am because I know how scared I am.
- [20:19]
Andrew Limbong
That's it for this week on NPR's Book of the Day. Let us know what you think. You can write to us at Book of the day@npr.org I'm Andrew Limbong. The podcast is produced by Danica Panetta and Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan. Our founding editor is Petra Maher. The show elements for this week were produced and edited by Samantha Balaban, Melissa Gray, Karen Miller Medson, Michael Scotto, Julia Corcoran, Fernando Now Roman, Emiko Tamagawa and Todd Mundt. Beth Donovan is our managing editor. Thanks for listening.
- [20:58]
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