'What Will People Think?' and 'Climbing in Heels' star women trying to make it big

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: Women Navigating Show Business and Societal Expectations

Release Date: June 6, 2025

In this compelling episode of NPR's Book of the Day, host Andrew Limbong explores two insightful novels that delve into the lives of women striving to make their mark in show business while grappling with societal constraints. The featured books, "What Will People Think?" by Sarah Hamdan and "Climbing in Heels" by Elaine Goldsmith Thomas, offer nuanced portrayals of female ambition, friendship, and resilience within the challenging landscapes of comedy and Hollywood agencies.

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1. What Will People Think? by Sarah Hamdan

Plot Overview: Sarah Hamdan's debut novel, "What Will People Think?", centers on Mia Almas, a Palestinian American woman leading a dual life as a fact-checker by day and a stand-up comedian by night. Mia grapples with the necessity of keeping her comedic aspirations a secret from her family to protect her heritage and maintain familial harmony. The narrative deepens as Mia discovers her grandmother Zana's diary from the 1940s in Jaffa, unveiling that Zana had also kept a forbidden love affair hidden from the family. This revelation creates a poignant parallel between Mia and Zana, highlighting the recurring theme of balancing personal passion with familial expectations.

Key Discussions and Insights:

• Cultural Representation Without Stereotypes: Sarah Hamdan emphasizes her intentional choice to portray a Palestinian woman authentically without reducing the narrative to themes of religion or conflict. As Hamdan states, “[...] I wanted to see if it was possible to write a really great story that happened to feature a Palestinian woman who is American and messy and funny and real and not just reduced to these headlines...” (02:20).

• The Role of Comedy in Challenging Stereotypes: Mia's career in stand-up comedy serves as a vehicle to address and dismantle cultural stereotypes. Hamdan explains, “I could think of no better way to talk about cultural stereotypes than through comedy because it's a wonderful way to be honest, but also to show vulnerability.” (03:07).

• Exploration of Different Forms of Love: The novel intricately weaves various types of love—platonic, romantic, and familial—demonstrating how these relationships shape the protagonists' lives. Hamdan remarks, “[...] the story about how some of those women inadvertently become very much like the monsters they worked for.” (07:39).

• Literature's Role in Highlighting Humanity: Amidst the backdrop of regional turmoil, Hamdan underscores literature's power to humanize and build bridges. “[...] literature has a quiet but powerful role here because it reminds us of people's humanity.” (04:57).

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Hamdan on portraying a multidimensional Palestinian woman: “We’re not monoliths.” (02:54)
• Hamdan on the essence of real love: “Real love builds bridges and it's just a way of connecting.” (04:57)

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2. Climbing in Heels by Elaine Goldsmith Thomas

Plot Overview: Elaine Goldsmith Thomas's "Climbing in Heels" offers a riveting glimpse into the cutthroat environment of a 1980s Hollywood talent agency through the eyes of three female secretaries. The novel navigates themes of sexism, power abuse, and the struggle for professional recognition in an industry dominated by male executives. As the characters confront and navigate the dark underbelly of Hollywood, they grapple with personal ambition, friendship, and the moral compromises necessary for survival.

Key Discussions and Insights:

• Authentic Hollywood Experience: Drawing from her extensive career in Hollywood, Goldsmith Thomas brings authenticity to the narrative. She shares, “I had to tell the truth... the more they said no, the more I wanted it, I knew I would be a good agent.” (09:35).

• Depiction of Power Dynamics and Abuse: The novel does not shy away from portraying the pervasive sexual harassment and abuse within the industry. Goldsmith Thomas recounts a personal anecdote involving Bill Cosby to illustrate the systemic abuse: “[...] I decided to tell the truth. And I could only have the truth from my experiences.” (10:40).

• Character Development and Resilience: The protagonists exhibit resilience and strategic thinking as they navigate their professional landscape. Goldsmith Thomas describes Beanie, one of the main characters, as someone who “cannot, will not take no.” (08:18), highlighting her unwavering determination to break through glass ceilings.

• Intergenerational Struggles and Legacy: The narrative explores how past and present generations of women endure similar struggles, reflecting on the cyclical nature of gender biases and the fight for empowerment.

Notable Quotes:

• Goldsmith Thomas on character motivation: “Beanie especially cannot, will not take no. No just means try again. And yes means love.” (08:27)
• On navigating power dynamics: “This is a book about the people behind the people and the secrets and the secrets.” (13:01)

Personal Anecdote: Goldsmith Thomas shares a poignant story about an interaction with Bill Cosby, highlighting the pervasive fear and manipulation women faced. This real-life experience underscores the novel's themes of power abuse and the difficult choices women must make in hostile environments. As she narrates, “I was scared enough that I just didn't do it and regretted it forever.” (12:00).

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Conclusion

This episode of NPR's Book of the Day masterfully highlights two novels that not only entertain but also provoke thoughtful reflection on the complexities women face in male-dominated industries. Sarah Hamdan's "What Will People Think?" celebrates the intersection of cultural identity and personal passion, while Elaine Goldsmith Thomas's "Climbing in Heels" exposes the harsh realities of gender dynamics in Hollywood. Together, these stories illuminate the enduring struggle for recognition, authenticity, and love amidst societal expectations and systemic challenges.

Notable Episode Highlights:

• Sarah Hamdan's focus on love and humanity beyond political narratives (02:20, 04:57).
• Elaine Goldsmith Thomas's authentic portrayal of Hollywood's dark side and personal resilience (10:40, 12:00).

Whether you're seeking a heartfelt exploration of personal and cultural identity or a gritty look into the power structures of Hollywood, this episode provides rich narratives that resonate with the broader themes of ambition, love, and survival.

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Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Today we've got two novels for you about women trying to make it in show business, but they're also more generally about the boxes women get placed into, the societal roles women have to navigate in order to achieve their dreams. In a bit, we'll hear about a novel centered around women in the 1980s entering the boys club of Hollywood talent agencies. But first, Sarah Hamdan's novel what Will People Think? Is is about a Palestinian American woman doing stand up comedy, a fact that she has to keep secret from her family. Hampden talks to NPR's Elsa Chang about writing a book starring a Palestinian American woman without making it all about religion or conflict or war. That's coming up.

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[NPR Host]

Mia Almas lives a double life. She works as a fact checker for a news publication by day and as a standup comedian by night. And then one day she discovers her Palestinian grandmother's diary dating back to the 1940s in what was then Jaffa, only to learn that her grandmother decades before, also kept a secret from her family, a forbidden love. How Mia and her grandmother disclose their mutual secrets to each other forms the storyline of the new novel by Sarah Hamden called what Will People Think? It's a book that reckons with how the pursuit of passion can collide with a family's love and the consequences of being forced to choose. Sarah Hamden joins us now. Welcome.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Hello.

Thank you so much for having me.

[NPR Host]

We're so excited to have you, Sarah. Well, I want to just begin by saying it is refreshing to see a book that it's about Palestinian women, but it's a book that's not primarily about religion or politics or regional conflict. And I was wondering how intentional was that choice to make this a story more about love and family and comedy?

[Sarah Hamdan]

It's exactly that. I mean, this is the message that I wanted to put out from day one and especially for an Arab woman, and especially so even now more than ever, perhaps for someone of Palestinian heritage, because it's a very misunderstood politicized identity. And I just wanted to see if it was possible to write a really great story that happened to feature a Palestinian woman who is American and messy and funny and real and not just reduced to these headlines and just centered around joy because we're not monoliths.

[NPR Host]

It is so fun to see an Arab woman, particularly a Palestinian woman, who is not a stereotype. Right. Like, why did you choose to make Mia a New York City comedian specifically?

[Sarah Hamdan]

I could think of no better way to talk about cultural stereotypes than through comedy because it's a wonderful way to be honest, but also to show vulnerability. And comedians, they just stand up on stage and they bear their souls and they make people laugh by sharing these little insecurities. And they want to feel seen, literally seen and understood. And I just thought that this was a beautiful way to tell the story.

[NPR Host]

Well, Mia, she has to keep her comedian life a secret to protect her family. And we won't get into why that is right here. But decades before her, her grandmother Zana also pursued a forbidden passion that placed her family at risk. And it made me wonder, you know, these two women, they're connected at that level. What is it that you wanted to show about the trade offs of a family's love?

[Sarah Hamdan]

So I think this is such a beautiful question because this book really does tackle different forms of love. So you have platonic love with Mia's friendship with Katie, her co worker. You have the forbidden crush that Mia has on her boss at work. And then you have the Zana story, who's her grandmother, and this illicit affair she has with a British soldier. And all of this behind the family expectations of you're supposed to marry the right kind of guy. And I think part of this is coming of age for both of them. It's just showing that at any age you can find the right love that's meant for you. So I think my approach was just to show a very layered look at the different ways that we fall in love and how our own family expectations play into that.

[NPR Host]

What do you hope people will reflect on when they think about love after reading your novel? Because we've talked about so many different kinds of love. The love of friendship, the love in romantic love, a family's love. What is it about love that you want people to take away?

[Sarah Hamdan]

I think real love builds bridges and it's just a way of connecting. And this is what life is about. It's just experiencing joy. And I do say that with the full acknowledgement that the last couple of years has been so heartbreaking, not just for me as someone of Palestinian heritage, but just as a mother, as a journalist on so many levels. What's happening in the Middle east and Palestine is devastating. And literature has a quiet but powerful role here because it reminds us of people's humanity. And this is what I've tried really hard to do in this novel.

[NPR Host]

Sarah Hamden's new book is called what Will People Think? Congratulations on your debut novel, and thank you so much for speaking with us.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Thank you for this honor. It's been wonderful speaking to you.

[Tonya Moseley]

I'm Tonya Moseley, co host of FRESH air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, tv, music and journalism. Here, our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the FRESH Air podcast from NPR and whyy.

[Andrew Limbong]

ELAINE Goldsmith Thomas used to be a Hollywood agent. Her new novel, climbing in Heels, is about three female secretaries in a Hollywood agency. And they're dealing with sexism that ranges from comments in the office to sexual assault. And when NPR's Leila Fadel asks her how she approached writing this dark side of Hollywood, all she says before getting into kind of a wild anecdote is that she she had to tell the truth. Here's Layla.

[NPR Host]

What do you get when you mix the plot lines of Mad Men and Sex and the City? Our next guest has some ideas. ELAINE Goldsmith Thomas is the author of Climbing in Heels, a new novel that follows the precarious path of three women secretaries at Hollywood's hottest agency in the 1980s. It just came out and it's already being developed into a TV series. It's Goldsmith Thomas's debut novel, but she knows Hollywood. She was an agency executive, studio partner, producer, and she started, like her characters in this book, as a secretary. And she joins me now. Elaine, welcome.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Thanks, Laila.

[NPR Host]

So this book is a ride. There's backstabbing, illicit affairs, men using their power to take advantage of women. And there was this one line about the three main characters that stood out to me. They were women trying to rewrite a rule book for a place that didn't recognize them as players. ELAINE if you could just describe these three women at the heart of the novel and what they're navigating.

[Sarah Hamdan]

You know, I like to think of it as a story of friendship, of survival, of betrayal, of standing up when they walk by, of saying, I won't quit when they want you gone. But it's also the story about how some of those women inadvertently become very much like the monsters they worked for. And I try not to judge These characters, it was the terrain in front of them, it was the mountain in front of them, and they wanted to break through. And all three of them had one, a few things in common. But Beanie especially cannot, will not take no. No just means try again. And yes means love.

[NPR Host]

And Beanie is the character that really wants to be an agent. She's gonna find a way in. Even though every answer is no. Women don't get to be agents.

[Sarah Hamdan]

It's the sliver of hope that she hangs onto. It's the idea that if you try, right, if you do it again, if you can make them see you, you can show them how sm, even if you don't look the part. And in the 80s, there wasn't a girls club.

[NPR Host]

Let's talk about that. Because you broke in in the 80s and you started as a secretary, right, at the William Morris Agency.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Oh, yeah.

[NPR Host]

So is this how it was for women then? Because in your book, the male agents refer to secretaries as secretaries. And God forbid they get a secretary with a degree and ambition. They're just looking for women they're attracted to.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Well, you weren't allowed. You weren't. I mean, first of all, not all of them were like this. And some of this is. Most of it is completely made up, but some of it isn't. You realize that people like Harvey Weinstein were not the exception. They were the rule. Wow. While they would get their hand slapped sometimes, the bad boys, they were secretly celebrated by the boys on the first floor who had their days in the 60s when they were the raucous young bucks. So, again, it's fictional, but some of it isn't.

[NPR Host]

So how did you break in? I mean, you ended up with this incredible career working with Julia Roberts, Jennifer Lopez, Nicolas Cage, so many others.

[Sarah Hamdan]

First of all, I would say that I stood on the shoulders of some remarkable women and I had a rather abusive boss. And it was difficult at times and I was able to survive it, barely. But it was difficult and ingrained in my memory. But the more they said no, the more I wanted it, I knew I would be a good agent.

[NPR Host]

You know, your novel is described as sexy and smart and entertaining, and it is all of those things. But it's hard to read in moments, reading the way women are contorting themselves to be what a man wants to try to have the things she wants in life, which is in places, what these women are doing. How did you navigate writing about this darker side of Hollywood, including sexual assault and know that sort of whisper network? Everybody knows. And men are Celebrated for.

[Sarah Hamdan]

I decided to tell the truth. And I could only have the truth from my experiences. Right. I decided to tell it.

[NPR Host]

Yeah.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Do I have time to tell you my Bill Cosby story?

[NPR Host]

Yes, tell me your Bill Cosby story. I was gonna ask about that.

[Sarah Hamdan]

So Mr. Cosby was giving a luncheon for the secretaries at William Morris. Very nice of him, because his show was such a success. And I was invited. And again, when you're a secretary, you just say, you want to be a secretary, because the personnel finds out, oops, you can lose your job. Or so I believed. So I was there. And he came up to me, and, you know, I had a name tag. He goes, elaine, tell me about you. Where did you go to college? And I said, berkeley and UC Santa Barbara. Wow. What do you want to do with your life? I said, I want to be a secretary. Really? You went to those two universities. You want to be a secretary? Come on. What do you want to do? And I said, you want to know what I want to do? He said, yeah. I said, I want to be an agent. I want to be the best agent that ever lived, and I want to represent you someday. And I want you to say, she was the best there ever was. And he laughed out loud. And then he left. And later on, I got a call from one of the executive secretaries on the first floor who said to me, Mr. Cosby has some contracts and has asked that you come to his hotel room and wait for him to sign them.

[NPR Host]

No way.

[Sarah Hamdan]

And I was so excited. I was like, yes. And I went to the bathroom, and I was fluffing my hair or whatever, and the secretary to the president of the agency walked in and said, don't do it. Wow. Now, she didn't say anything untoward would happen. She just said, you want to be an agent? And anybody else who's ever done anything with him or for him, they always end up, you know, he helps them get other jobs. I think she said.

[NPR Host]

And knowing what we know now, though, right?

[Sarah Hamdan]

But she scared me. And she scared me enough that I just didn't do it and regretted it forever. Until I realized I would have been the person who said, yeah, I'll have another Kool Aid. You know, that would have been. Cause I felt so seen by him. Isn't that interesting?

[NPR Host]

Which is so much of what's in your book. And you do so well in this book, seeing the way that these power dynamics are abused and the way that people have to navigate them, also abuse them back. Like, okay, if this is what I have to do. Let me figure out how to create the rule book that works for me.

[Sarah Hamdan]

Yeah, the strategy, because it is strategy. The people behind the people are the ones that hold their legacies and their secrets. And this is a book about the people behind the people and the secrets and the secrets.

[NPR Host]

That was Elaine Goldsmith Thomas, author of the novel Climbing in heels. More than 60 women have accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault. In 2018, he was found guilty of drugging and sexually assaulting a woman at his home and citing a violation of his due process rights, that conviction was overturned in 2021. Cosby has maintained his innocence.

[Andrew Limbong]

That's it for this week on NPR's Book of the Day. If you want more, you can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter Books I'm Andrew Limbaugh. The podcast is produced by Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan. Our founding editor is Petra Maher. The show elements for this week were produced and edited by Shannon Rhodes, Samantha Balaban, Patrick Jaron Watanan, Jason Fuller, Todd Munsch, Julia Corcoran, Ed McNulty, Andrew Craig CRISPR and Tagliata Gurjeet Kaur, Natalie Winston and Taylor Haney. Yolanda Sanguini is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.

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