'You Didn't Hear This From Me' is Kelsey McKinney's gossip bible

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: "You Didn't Hear This From Me" by Kelsey McKinney

Release Date: March 4, 2025
Host: Andrew Limbong
Interviewee: Kelsey McKinney
Interviewer: Juana Summers

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Introduction to Kelsey McKinney and Her Work on Gossip

In the March 4, 2025 episode of NPR's Book of the Day, host Andrew Limbong introduces Kelsey McKinney, the former host of the podcast Normal Gossip and the author of her latest book, You Didn't Hear This From Me: Mostly True Notes on Gossip. The book is described as a blend of essay, memoir, and criticism that delves into the intricate dynamics of gossip and its impact on society.

Andrew Limbong sets the stage by highlighting McKinney's central thesis: gossip itself is morally neutral. Instead, it is a tool whose ethical implications are determined by how it is utilized. This foundation paves the way for a deep exploration of gossip's role in various aspects of human interaction.

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The Irresistible Nature of Gossip

Juana Summers initiates the conversation by probing the allure of gossip, questioning its pervasive presence across pop culture. McKinney responds by referencing British anthropologist Robin Dunbar, emphasizing the evolutionary significance of gossip in human communication.

Kelsey McKinney [00:50]: "Robin Dunbar argues that we as a species developed language so that we could talk to each other and keep ourselves alive. And that that is a key part of gossip because you don't language if you're not going to gossip."

She further elaborates on the unique human capacity for a "theory of mind," allowing individuals to discuss topics beyond their immediate perception, thereby cementing gossip as a fundamental aspect of human nature.

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Gossip in Kelsey's Evangelical Upbringing

McKinney shares a deeply personal narrative about her upbringing in the evangelical church and how it shaped her perception of gossip. She recounts being taught that gossip was a "thorn in my side," an obstacle that aligned with her moral and spiritual development.

Kelsey McKinney [03:08]: "I was told by church leaders that the thorn for me was gossip. And I realized in high school that I didn't know that I believed that anymore."

This realization in high school led her to question the blanket negativity associated with gossip, prompting her to explore its multifaceted nature more thoroughly in her work.

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Gossip vs. Misinformation

Addressing the delicate balance between harmless gossip and harmful misinformation, McKinney differentiates the two by intent and impact. She warns against the intentional spread of false information, which she categorizes as libelous rather than mere gossip.

Kelsey McKinney [05:12]: "Someone who's spreading something they know is not true is not definitionally gossiping. They're libeling, slandering, defaming."

However, she acknowledges the "dark underbelly" of gossip, noting that while it can strengthen social bonds, it can also be weaponized to sow confusion and anger.

Kelsey McKinney [05:56]: "Gossip is just a tool that we use in our civilization. And a hammer cannot be morally good or bad. It is just what it is."

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The Allure of Reality TV and Its Reflection on Gossip

Shifting the focus to popular media, Juana Summers and McKinney discuss how reality TV serves as a mirror to societal behaviors surrounding gossip. McKinney posits that reality television allows viewers to engage in gossip without personal stakes, facilitating a safe space for social learning and emotional exploration.

Kelsey McKinney [06:26]: "Reality television gives you the ability to talk about people and the way they behave without any personal stakes."

She highlights how shows like Real Housewives enable audiences to form and express opinions about individuals, fostering a sense of connection and shared experience without direct repercussions.

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The Power and Utility of Gossip

McKinney delves into the constructive aspects of gossip, framing it as a "whisper network" that fosters solidarity and protection within communities. She cites the MeToo movement as a prime example of how gossip can serve as a mechanism for individuals to safeguard themselves against those in power.

Kelsey McKinney [07:27]: "Something that I consider gossip, and that is gossip, definitionally, is something like a whisper network. So the idea that people are talking to each other in order to protect themselves from someone in power."

Additionally, she points out smaller-scale applications, such as colleagues warning each other about problematic bosses or friends alerting one another to untrustworthy individuals in social settings.

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Harnessing Gossip for Self-Understanding and Societal Insight

In her closing remarks, McKinney offers practical advice on leveraging gossip to gain personal and collective insights. She suggests that awareness of one's own biases can be heightened through the analysis of gossip dynamics.

Kelsey McKinney [08:14]: "Gossip is really good at showing you your own biases. So if you can pay attention to the way that you talk to people and the way that they talk back to you, you can start realizing the parts of the world that you're biased against."

By observing and reflecting on the ways gossip is exchanged and received, individuals can better understand their prejudices and the societal constructs that shape them.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with McKinney hinting at the endless nature of gossip, leaving listeners intrigued by the limitless stories that exist within this social phenomenon. Her insights encourage a nuanced appreciation of gossip, recognizing its potential both to harm and to empower.

Kelsey McKinney [08:44]: "The amount of gossip I would love to tell you, but that I cannot tell you on National Public Radio is infinite."

You Didn't Hear This From Me: Mostly True Notes on Gossip emerges as a compelling exploration of gossip's dualistic nature, offering listeners a thought-provoking examination of how this ubiquitous aspect of human interaction shapes our lives and societies.

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Notable Quotes

• Andrew Limbong [00:02]: Introduction of Kelsey McKinney and her book.
• Kelsey McKinney [00:50]: Discussing the evolutionary role of gossip.
• Kelsey McKinney [03:08]: Personal reflection on gossip from an evangelical perspective.
• Kelsey McKinney [05:12]: Distinguishing gossip from libel and slander.
• Kelsey McKinney [06:26]: The impact of reality TV on gossip dynamics.
• Kelsey McKinney [07:27]: Gossip as a protective whisper network.
• Kelsey McKinney [08:14]: Using gossip to uncover personal biases.
• Kelsey McKinney [08:44]: The boundless nature of gossip.

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"You Didn't Hear This From Me: Mostly True Notes on Gossip" is available now, offering readers a deep dive into the complexities of gossip and its significant role in shaping human relationships and societal norms.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Kelsey McKinney is on the pod today. She is the former host of the podcast Normal Gossip, a podcast about gossip. And now she's out with a new book about, you guessed it, gossip. It's titled you didn't Hear this from me, Mostly True Notes on Gossip. And it's a combination of essay, memoir and criticism about the power of gossip. In this interview with NPR's Juana Summers, McKinney makes the point that gossip doesn't have inherent moral value. It's not good, it's not bad. It is a tool like any other. But it's how we use that tool that dictates who gossip helps and who it hurts. That conversation is up ahead.

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[Juana Summers]

What is it that makes gossip so irresistible? Examples of its pull and power. They exist all over pop culture.

[Andrew Limbong]

XOXO Gossip.

[Juana Summers]

Did you write this? No, I swear.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Then you told so somebody she told what?

[NPR Sponsor]

And she stayed all night. Yeah, I know.

[Juana Summers]

Are you lying?

[Kelsey McKinney]

I don't believe that.

[Juana Summers]

Are you spreading rumors?

[Kelsey McKinney]

We were literally just talking about that. How could you know? Everybody knows.

[Juana Summers]

And if you ask Kelsey McKenney, we might just be born with the desire to gossip for good reason. She offers this take from a British anthropologist.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Robin Dunbar argues that we as a species developed language so that we could talk to each other and keep ourselves alive. And that that is a key part of gossip because you don't language if you're not going to gossip. We're the only animal that can contain theory of mind. The idea that you and I are talking about something that isn't right in front of us and you can imagine it, that is like a fundamental part of being human.

[Juana Summers]

McKinney has studied gossip and made a whole career out of it. She's co creator of the podcast Normal Gossip. Each episode serves up some anonymous tea and guests react to all of the twists and turns of the stories being told. At the end of last year, McKinney stepped away from the podcast, handing the reins over to a new host. And her next big move is the Release of a new book this week. It's called you Didn't Hear this from Me. Mostly True Notes on Gossip. And Kelsey McKinney stopped by NPR studios in D.C. to talk about it. You talk a lot about growing up in the evangelical church and what you took away from church about gossip. You described it as something that wasn't allowed, that was seen as sort of an affront against God, but it didn't go away. It stuck with you. You enjoyed it, even though you tried to put some distance. There's the story you tell early in the book about the moment that were first told that gossip was this thorn in your side. Can you tell us that story?

[Kelsey McKinney]

So in the Bible, Paul, he says, thorn was put in my side and that this is what is supposed to remind me of Christ, to remind me that I'm broken in this way. I was told by church leaders that the thorn for me was gossip. And I realized in high school that I didn't know that I believed that anymore. When I'm talking about gossip, I'm talking about it in its most broad term. So two people talking to each other about someone who's not there, which in that definition means that prayer requests, where I say, can you pray for my friend who's going through this thing is gossiping. Yeah. And so for me, realizing that this thing I had been told was bad across the board in every scenario meant that I had to question everything I had been told.

[Juana Summers]

I want to switch gears a little bit. Even though you defend and participate in and have built a career on gossip, you don't ignore the topic of misinformation and the role that gossip plays in it. I want to quote something that you wrote in one chapter. Uh oh, A good conspiracy theory is built of gossip that has flown too close to the sun and been burnt to a crisp. There's always a hint of truth there. So how do we keep a safe distance then? How do we stop a story from going too far, possibly even causing harm to someone?

[Kelsey McKinney]

I think the safest bet is to gossip about your own community, people that you know, who you interact with. But part of defining gossip so broadly is recognizing when it's no longer gossip and has evolved into something more sinister. For conspiracy theories, you can usually flag those just by trying to determine whether it has some kind of nefarious intent to it.

[Juana Summers]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Am I being told this story because someone wants me to believe that the government is against me or that someone is hiding something very important? Or am I being told this story as a form of entertainment?

[Juana Summers]

So there will always be people who seek to sow confusion and anger for their own benefit by spreading a rumor or intentionally distorting the facts. So I wonder, can we have one without the other? Are these two things that are always going to coexist?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, so I would push you on that at first, because someone who's spreading something they know is not true is not definitionally gossiping. They're libeling, slandering, defaming. Those things, I think, are universally bad. You should not make things up and spread them. It's hurtful. But I do think you're right. There is a kind of dark underbelly to gossip. It's not a universal good. Right. I think there's a kind of tenor in the air right now of people saying, oh, gossip is this moral good. Gossip is this great thing for society. And I think that's equally as dangerous as saying gossip is an evil mortal sin that is going to ruin society. Like, gossip is just a tool that we use in our civilization. And a hammer cannot be morally good or bad. It is just what it is.

[Juana Summers]

You mentioned entertainment, which means I have to talk about something that I love because I am trash, and it is reality tv.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God.

[Juana Summers]

And, I mean, you wrote about how it shows us that gossip is how we decide who to trust, who we shouldn't trust, and how watching all of these narratives play out in these people that we have absolutely no personal connection to. We are seeing people build communities, and we're also watching them, at times, burn them to the ground. How would you describe, like, what reality TV reflects back to us about ourselves and why is it so irresistible?

[Kelsey McKinney]

I think reality television gives you the ability to talk about people and the way they behave without any personal stakes. I can watch the Real Housewives of New York reunion, and I can text my friend the whole time and be like, I think that this person's lying. I think this person's doing it wrong. Right. And you can have all of these opinions and there are no repercussions for you. But part of that is also social learning, which I think is so fascinating and so fun and a great excuse to consume way more reality television. Love any excuse for that. And we know that social scientists have studied that even the act of gossiping with someone will lower your heart rate. It makes you feel calm to be in that kind of trusting relationship with someone. That is really interesting with reality TV and gossip in general is that it gives you a way to connect yourself to someone even more intimately.

[Juana Summers]

And the other part of it Is though. And I think that this, as you have pointed out and as you've written, gossip is also incredibly useful and it can be powerful. Can you talk about the power and utility of gossip?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. So something that I consider gossip, and that is gossip, definitionally, is something like a whisper network. So the idea that people are talking to each other in order to protect themselves from someone in power, A great example of this is the MeToo movement where you have women talking to each other and saying, hey, we need to be careful about this. But that also exists at way smaller levels. It's people telling each other which bosses to be aware of. It's women saying, watch out for this man at a bar.

[Juana Summers]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It's this kind of solidarity that exists within in that talk. We use gossip as a way to protect ourselves from people who don't need gossip because they can just make decisions for us.

[Juana Summers]

I want to end on this. What is your best advice for how all of us can use gossip to help us better understand ourselves and the world around us?

[Kelsey McKinney]

It sounds a little woo woo, but I do think, you know, if you're crossing some kind of line, if it feels bad in your body and then in terms of understanding the world around you, gossip is really good at showing you your own biases. So if you can pay attention to the way that you talk to people and the way that they talk back to you, you can start realizing the parts of the world that you're biased against. And I think that that is a great way to interact with the world.

[Juana Summers]

I lied. One more question.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Not a lie.

[Juana Summers]

Have you heard any good gossip lately?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God. The amount of gossip I would love to tell you, but that I cannot tell you on National Public Radio is infinite.

[Juana Summers]

We have been Talking with Kelsey McKinney. Her new book, you didn't hear this from me. Mostly True Notes on Gossip is out now. Kelsey, it's been such a pleasure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Thank you for having me.

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