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- [00:01]
Phil Agnew
On today's episode of Nudge, I attempt to persuade 20 strangers to listen to this podcast. I didn't show the strangers any 5 star reviews. I didn't say Nudge topped the marketing charts. I didn't use an economic incentive. No. Instead I used a pre suasion tactic taught to me by today's guest.
- [00:23]
Brian Ahern
Hi, I'm Brian Ahern, Chief Influence Officer at Influence People.
- [00:27]
Phil Agnew
And Brian's advice? Well, it worked.
- [00:30]
Stranger
I think I would listen to a podcast like that. I absolutely would. Yes, I'd definitely listen to a podcast like Nudge.
- [00:37]
Phil Agnew
Find out how I persuaded these 20 strangers in today's episode of Nudge. All of that coming up.
- [00:45]
Natalie Gingrich
The OPS Authority, hosted by Natalie Gingrich, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Every week on the OPS Authority, you'll hear transformational stories of powerhouse business owners who value business operations. You can't ignore the back end pieces that have to work together and flow smoothly to build a brand, grow a community, or disrupt an industry. If the operations side of your business is a mess, putting out fires will always take priority, leaving no room for the behavioral science improvements that I think every business needs to make. So listen to the OPS Authority wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:26]
Phil Agnew
A few years back, on a baking hot summer's day holiday in Spain, I read Robert Cialdini's best selling book Pre Suasion. The book's premise is that individuals are more likely to comply with your request if you pre suede them. The idea is that before you make your request, you share something that will subtly influence them. Take this example. In his book, Cialdini shares how researchers Balkan and Anderson made their request 165% more persuasive by using Suasion. They started by asking random passers by to take part in a survey. Unsurprisingly, most people say no. But then they tweaked their ask. First they asked the passers by, do you consider yourself helpful? Then they asked, will you take this survey? That pre suasion question simply asking them, do you consider yourself helpful? Which most people agree to? Well, that pre suasion question increased the amount of people who agreed to answer the survey. Those who were asked the pre suasion question agreed at a rate of 77.3% and those who weren't agreed at a rate of 29%. This pre suasion tactic, well, it worked. Now, I have always wanted to test this out with my podcast. I've always wondered if I could pre suede people to listen. So to help me out, I contacted Brian Ahern, one of Robert Cialdini's most trusted students.
- [02:47]
Brian Ahern
I have the privilege of being one of only a dozen people in the world who've been personally trained and certified by Dr. Robert Cialdini in his method of teaching. Others influence. I've been working with Dr. Cialdini's material for more than 20 years now and have been certified with him for more than 15. I work with individuals and organizations helping them bring the research from social psychology into their communication to make it easier for them to hear yes.
- [03:15]
Phil Agnew
After learning about pre suasion, Brian realized that he had been using these tactics intuitively his whole life. In fact, it's how he persuaded his wife to say yes to his engagement.
- [03:25]
Brian Ahern
My introduction to pre suasion came really by accident, but out of desperation. When I started my first job out of college 38 years ago, and I was sitting in the HR conference room and in walks Jane Bailey. And I looked at her and I thought she was beautiful. And she honestly said that when she first saw me, she thought, what an egghead. But within a few weeks, Jane and I started dating, and the longtime girlfriend I had was no longer going out with her. And Jane and I fell in love and it was awesome. Until one day that fall, the old girlfriend called and it really threw me for a loop. I wasn't sure who I wanted to be with, and I was indecisive for six months. Now, for those of you who are listening to this, imagine that somebody can't make up their mind between you and another person for six months. Well, Jane and I still work together. And because of my on and off again after about six months, I saw her in the break room one day and asked how she was doing. And she announced that she would never go out with me again. And I couldn't blame her because of my indecision. But here's the thing. I felt like I'd settled things in my heart. I really knew she's the one I wanted to be with. And I was actually thinking I wanted to marry her. Now, if you would have known me back then, you would have said, don't do this. Don't get into a relationship that you cannot commit to. And if you would have known her, you would have said, look, he's bad news. Ron, Don, go through this again. So I knew I was going to have to do something big. And here's where pre suasion came in. On her birthday, which was May 14, 1987, I asked her If I could take her to dinner. And she had agreed. So for her birthday, I sent her a dozen roses at work. Of course she liked that. She liked the attention she received. And because she had said yes to dinner, I showed up at her apartment with another dozen roses and a bottle of wine. So now she's thinking, this is turning out to be a pretty good birthday. Well, before we leave, there's a knock on the door. And standing at the door is a chauffeur. I had rented Silver Cloud, Rolls Royce and chauffeur to take us to dinner. And we drove to downtown Columbus. It was about 15 minute drive from where we were to one of the tallest buildings in the city at the time. And this building had a glass elevator. So we rode this glass elevator up more than 30 stories. We had dinner on the top floor with this romant view overlooking the city skyline and in the back of the Rolls. On the ride home, I popped the question and she said yes. If I hadn't engaged the psychology of pre suasion to make it easier for her to say yes, then none of this wonderful life that I'm now experiencing would have happened. Because I could have asked her that day in the break room when she said never again. I could have said, jane, I'm sorry, I love you. Please will you go out with me again? I want to marry you. And I'm sure she would have said no way. But when I persuasively set the stage with romance, almost fairy tale like, it made it much, much easier for her to say yes. And it's turned out to be a wonderful decision for both of us.
- [06:36]
Phil Agnew
Brian's engagement story is very sweet and compelling. There is no question that his partner was persuaded by the Rolls Royce, the flowers and the restaurant. A proposal after a date at McDonald's would not have been as persuasive. But what's the difference between normal persuasion and Cialdini's pre suasion? Well, I asked Brian.
- [06:57]
Brian Ahern
Well, Dr. Robert Cialdini defines pre suasion as arranging for an audience to be receptive to a message before they ever encounter it. I like a more simple definition. Setting the stage. Presuasion is what can you do to set the stage to make it easier for someone to say yes to you?
- [07:17]
Phil Agnew
It's arranging for an audience to be receptive to a message before encountering it. So we're not talking about changing the message itself. This is about changing what comes before the message. And persuasion can make it easier for the audience to say yes. Now, I understand how this worked for Brian and his fiance. But I wanted to know if the same techniques could be used for big brand advertising campaigns.
- [07:42]
Brian Ahern
There's an insurance company, a very large company here in the United States called Nationwide Insurance, and they always have these commercials about mayhem and they have this individual and he's talking to you about this could happen to you, but they create this sense through mayhem that something bad could happen to you. So it's getting your mind in that space of what if this happened to me? They're not really talking about the features and benefits at all of the product. They're simply saying if you have cut rate insurance, you know, you might be out a lot of money.
- [08:16]
Phil Agnew
Here's one of those Nationwide classic ads.
- [08:19]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
Honey?
- [08:20]
Stranger
Yeah?
- [08:21]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
Do you know what this light switch does?
- [08:23]
Stranger
Which one?
- [08:24]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
The one on the right.
- [08:25]
Stranger
I never used that one.
- [08:27]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
All right. Will you look?
- [08:28]
Stranger
Yep.
- [08:28]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
On. Off. On.
- [08:32]
Stranger
No.
- [08:32]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
Are you looking?
- [08:33]
Brian Ahern
Yes.
- [08:35]
Nationwide Commercial Voice
Off. On. Off. On. Off. On. Off. On. Off.
- [08:40]
Brian Ahern
Life comes at you fast. When it does, nobody covers your car like Nationwide Investments Retirement insurance.
- [08:49]
Phil Agnew
The camera pans to the outside of the house and shows the light switch repeatedly opening and closing a neighbor's garage door on top of the neighbor's car. The neighbor is sitting in the car while the garage door is slowly crushing the car to pieces.
- [09:05]
Brian Ahern
So I think they effectively utilize this spokesperson mayhem and then everything that happens around him to get people in a different frame of mind than they would be if they just sat down and talked to you about the need for insurance.
- [09:17]
Phil Agnew
In Pre Suasion, Cialdini writes how simply superimposing a brand of Belgian beer five times on pictures of pleasant activities such as sailing, water skiing and cuddling increased viewers positive feelings towards the beer. Similarly, superimposing a brand of mouthwash on pictures of beautiful nature scenes six times led observers to feel more favourably towards the brand right away and still more favourably three weeks later. And yet, I think this is all a bit high level. To convince strangers to listen to this podcast, I'd need to know the reasons why Pre Suasion works. Well, Brian has three reasons for me, which he calls his three brain rules. The first rule is attention.
- [09:59]
Brian Ahern
When it comes to attention, Daniel Kahneman, the late Daniel Kahneman, one of the most well known behavioral economists in the world, said that he was asked the question one time, somebody said, what is the best piece of advice you can give for understanding the world better? And his response was, nothing is as important as you think it is while you're thinking about it. And that is because in the Moment we begin to think about something, our brains and our limited capacity, we seem to block out almost everything else. And we give that thing more importance than perhaps it deserves. And this was really highlighted in a bit of research around 9 11, around the 10th anniversary of the 911 tragedy, where in the months leading up to the 10th anniversary, people were asked the question, what are two of the most important events of the last 70 years in American history? And as you would imagine, a good number, 30% said 911 was one of the two most important. Interestingly, as they continued to ask the very same question in the days leading up to the 10th anniversary, that number spiked from 30 to 65%. Now, the reality is 911 didn't suddenly become twice as important in American history. What was happening was people's limited attention was being consumed by all of the media coverage as they approached that 10th anniversary, right? People are being inundated with this media coverage of 9 11, and all of a sudden it's right there in front of them, and they can't see the forest for the trees. And we know that to be the case because in the weeks after, as they continue to ask that very same question, the number fell down to 30%.
- [11:48]
Phil Agnew
Nothing is as important as you think it is while you're thinking about it. When our attention is drawn to something, it alters our behavior and attitudes. Airline sales following 911 followed this same rule. After September 11th in 2001, thousands of Americans with long distance travel plans abandoned their plane tickets and drove instead. However, the fatality rate for highway travel is considerably higher than for air travel, making the choice, unfortunately, a much more deadly one. It is estimated that about 1,600Americans lost their lives in additional car accidents as a result, six times more than the number of passengers killed in the only US commercial plane crash in the 12 months following 9 11. All that's sad. Research shows how attention is needed for persuasion. Next up, Brian says you need to get your audience into the right mindset.
- [12:43]
Brian Ahern
So when we talk about mindset, we say who you are in the moment you make a decision is where you are when you make that decision. Now, what do we mean where you are? Well, where you are emotionally makes a huge difference. Where you are physically, where you are mentally. All of these can change how you make a decision. And so if you're able to change where somebody is, where that mindset is, you have a much better chance of ultimately persuading them. So I'll give some examples here. Emotionally, I talked about him in my TED Talk, A young lady who worked for me at the insurance company. When she came in to my department and she interviewed for the job, we had this opening and one of the things that she talked about was a fear of public speaking. You know, that's not a really good thing when you're moving into a training department and there's going to be an expectation that you're going to help to facilitate training. Now, her fear was so intense that when she had been married some 15 years before, she said the fear was so intense that she was physically getting sick in the days leading up to her wedding at the thought of being the center of attention. But she came to me one day and she said, I still get so nervous before I get ready to speak. So there's her emotional state. And I asked her, I said, when you say nervous, describe what you, what you're thinking and feeling. So she began to describe her thoughts and feelings. It occurred to me and I said, you know what, I think many of the same things and I feel many of the same feelings, but my frame of reference for that is excitement. Now, I know you don't enjoy things you're nervous about, but I know you really look forward to things you're excited about. If we can reframe those thoughts and feelings from nerves to excitement, I think it's going to make a big difference for you. So we began to work on that in our coaching and some time passed and she comes to me out of the blue and says, it really works. I don't get nervous anymore. I really get excited before I get ready to speak. And by the time she left our company, she was leading eight hour workshops on her own.
- [14:56]
Phil Agnew
Brian doesn't just have anecdotal examples of changing someone's mindset, he has evidence to back it up.
- [15:03]
Brian Ahern
So here's a bit of research around this that I think shows changing mindsets. Imagine you walk into a grocery store and there's somebody like me shortly after you get into the door. And I say, hi, I work for a marketing firm. We represent ABC Company. They've just come out with a new type of pop, or maybe where you're listening at soda, but they've come out with this new drink. And we're asking customers like you if you're willing to give us your email address, we will send you an email with coupons for free samples. Would you be willing to share your email? And in that case, 33% of the people said sure. They willingly gave their email so they could get that their email address so they could get that Email. In the free coupons at a different time, 76% of people said yes to the exact same request. The difference was a pre suasive opener. So when you would walk in, in that second scenario, before I launched into my ask, I would ask this. Do you consider yourself to be adventurous, the kind of person who likes to try new things? Well, we all try new things all the time, right? And we probably all have had times in our lives where we were a little wild and crazy and adventurous. So as you might imagine, nearly every person said yes. And then at that point I would say, I work for a marketing firm. We represent ABC Company. They've come out with a new type of soft drink. And we're asking customers like you if you're willing to give us your email address, we'll send you an email with coupons for free samples. Once people saw themselves internally as those who are adventurous or those who like to try new things, it became easier for them to say, yes, it's only consistent. Why wouldn't I want to try this new type of pop since I'm the kind of person who likes to try new things? So that's an example of changing where somebody was in the moments before launching into the ask.
- [17:06]
Phil Agnew
This study was also conducted by Balkan and Anderson, the two researchers I referenced at the start of the show. And it gave me an idea for how I might persuade strangers to listen to Nudge. Perhaps I'd just ask them a pre suasion question first. But before starting my experiment, Brian was keen to tell me about the final brain rule. And that rule is triggers.
- [17:28]
Brian Ahern
Triggers when we talk about triggers, sight sounds and surroundings. So a study was done where individuals would go into a wine shop and they wanted to see if something as simple as music playing very softly in the background would impact people's purchasing decisions. They either played French or German music, and lo and behold, when they played French music, they sold 333% more French wine as compared to the German. But when they played German music, it flipped and they sold 275% more German wine as compared to the French. Now, interestingly, when people would leave the store and they were asked about the music, more than half of them didn't even recall hearing it. Now, as you might imagine, those who did recall hearing it, most of them insisted it had no impact on their decision making.
- [18:20]
Phil Agnew
The first ever episode of Nudge I released was with the researcher behind this study, Adrian North. In the episode, Adrian shared his surprise at how much this background music affected sales and how the customers who were led to buy German or French wine truly didn't believe that the music had had any impact. But in addition to sounds, our surroundings can persuade as well.
- [18:43]
Brian Ahern
The final thing that we talk about are surroundings. Well, there was an interesting study that was done where a young man was given a task and that task was strike up a conversation with random women with one goal in mind. Can you get these complete strangers to give you their phone number? So no easy task in this day and age. Well, he made his ask in front of one of three places, either a bakery, a shoe shop or a flower shop. So in my limited experience with women, I'm 60 years old, I've been married for 36 years now, raised a 28 year old daughter. I know a lot of women, but in the scope of the universe it's a very small number. But I will say that the women I know, generally they really like sweets, they seem to really enjoy shoes, buy the shoes, build the outfit, and I've not met any that didn't enjoy getting flowers. So I say this to say that each of these places has a very positive association for most women. But the question is, would this young man be better at reaching his goal in front of one of the spots versus the others? And there was a clear winner. Twice as often, 24% of the time he was able to get that phone number from a complete stranger when he was in front of the flower shop, as opposed to the bakery or the shoe shop, which was about 12, 12 and a half percent.
- [20:13]
Phil Agnew
Now I'll be honest, I'm always a little wary of studies like this one, studies where a small intervention like standing in front of a flower shop can double the effectiveness of a request. Well, I always think these studies should be questioned. These small interventions with large impacts, it's often difficult to replicate. It's interesting, but it won't mean that you'll pick up more women outside a flower shop. The world is just too chaotic, there's too many variables for that. Yet there are other studies that do seem to replicate some of these findings. Cialdini writes about a small study conducted in France. The researchers arranged for an attractive 19 year old woman to approach two random samples of middle aged men. The 19 year old woman was walking alone and she would ask the men for a hazardous type of help. She pointed to a pack of four young thugs who were in fact research assistants and said that they had stolen her mobile phone. Could you get it back for me? She would ask. Now understandably, most lone men are very reluctant to intervene under these circumstances, and in a control sample, only 20% of them men, took up the young woman's request. But in a variant sample, almost twice as many confronted the thugs. What accounted for the difference? Well, a few minutes before the young 19 year old woman asked the men this, all of the men were approached by a different young woman who asked for street directions. However, half had been asked for directions to Martin street, whereas the others had been asked for directions to Valentine Street. Those asked about the latter location made up a far braver sample of men. According to the researchers, the word valentine triggered their bravado, propelling them to act now. It is a compelling example, but will it work for me? Can I use persuasion to persuade strangers to listen to Nudge? Well, find out after this short break.
- [22:06]
Natalie Gingrich
Once on holiday, a local asked me to explain what marketing actually is, and I struggled. How do you even begin to describe marketing? You have to generate leads, you have to score leads, you have to contact leads, you have to create content, you have to gather data. And the next day you'll need to do it all again. And you wonder if it's even working. It's clear that marketers are spread far too thin trying to do so many different things, but HubSpot really can help. With the help of Breeze, HubSpot's collection of AI tools and features like Content Remix can really help. With Content Remix, you can turn one piece of content into a suite of assets. With HubSpot, you can also pinpoint the best prospects with a predictive lead scoring system. And you can level up your campaign's KPIs with a new analytics suite so.
- [22:55]
Phil Agnew
Your day to day becomes less busy work and more driving revenue through the roof.
- [23:00]
Natalie Gingrich
Even if all of that won't actually help me explain what marketing is, visit HubSpot.com marketers to learn more.
- [23:10]
Phil Agnew
Hello and welcome back. You are listening to Nudge with me, Phil Agnew. But what persuaded you to listen to Nudge originally? What made you download this podcast episode? It is something I think about a lot. I've always wanted to reach a wider audience and this conversation with Brian got me wondering if I could persuade a stranger to listen. So I asked Brian what he'd suggest I do.
- [23:34]
Brian Ahern
Well, my question for you, Phil, would be what would be the optimal mindset or what is the target listener for you?
- [23:46]
Phil Agnew
I think at the broadest level it is people who are curious about how the mind works and interested in perhaps learning how they could alter the decisions, the decisions other people make. That's the broadest level.
- [24:04]
Brian Ahern
So curious about how the mind works and then how they would be able to optimize that to get to a yes response. So maybe focusing on words like curious and mindset. So maybe I say, phil, you seem like the curious type to me. Am I right? And then you come back and say, yeah, I consider myself to be kind of a curious person. We're both here to learn a little bit more about marketing. Right. And. And I found that understanding how people's minds work make it a lot easier to be a successful marketer is, you know, has that been the case for you? You might come back, yeah. I mean, absolutely. Marketing is all about grabbing attention, et cetera. You know, I got so curious about this, I started a podcast called Nudge. You know, what are these, like, seemingly small things that we can do that might nudge people in our direction? You might be interested in checking it out. I've had some interesting guests, so maybe an approach, something like that, but it's getting them to raise to the surface. Now, you could also ask about, do you listen to podcasts? What are some of your favorite? So there's a lot of angles there, but I think the curiosity, the mindset, and the podcast are the three things.
- [25:18]
Phil Agnew
I like this example. I could pre suede strangers by asking them a question to change their mindset. This will replicate what Balkan and Anderson did in their studies where asking strangers if they were helpful or adventurous made them twice as likely to agree agree to a request. So I will try and do the same. But of course, I wanted my test to be at least a little bit scientific. I wanted a control group to compare my results. So I got back in touch with the folks at voxpop Me. Voxpop Me helps brands and agencies learn from customers. Using video surveys, brands and agencies ask questions and over 5 million people have responded with videos explaining their thoughts. It's an incredibly fast way to ask thousands of people a question and get informative, qualitative results. So using Voxpop me, I told 20 strangers in my control group a bit about Nudge and then asked them if they would listen. Here's what I said. I host Nudge Podcast, a podcast listened to by thousands of curious people who want to understand how the human mind works. On Nudge, I interview psychologists who explain how we can use psychology to improve our productivity, explain how our habits work, explain how advertisements try to manipulate us, and also how humans make decisions. So would you listen to a podcast like this? Out of the 20 strangers I asked this question to, the vast majority said they would listen.
- [26:46]
Stranger
Yes. That actually sounds Very interesting. Right up my alley. I would absolutely, definitely listen to the podcast. I do find like psychology and sociology and all that pretty interesting. So yeah, I might give it a listen too. I would definitely listen to a podcast like this. So this is a podcast that would definitely capture my attention. I would listen to a podcast like that.
- [27:09]
Phil Agnew
Yeah, I think I'd give it a go. However, four out of the 20 said they would not listen to Nudge.
- [27:15]
Stranger
I don't think I would. I am not a fan of podcasts to start off with. They're not something that I listen to. The topic of the podcast that I've just been shown isn't something that interests me. I probably wouldn't listen to the podcast. I feel that there's a lot of things like that out there already. So no, I do not think I'm interested in the subjects, but I'm not interested in listening to a podcast. So I would not listen to this podcast.
- [27:44]
Phil Agnew
So to test pre suasion, I asked a different set of 20 people a mindset shifting question. To start, I asked them this. Are you a curious person who wants to learn more about how the human mind works? Just like Brian predicted, all 20 strangers said they were curious people.
- [28:07]
Stranger
I would definitely say I am a curious person. Yes, I definitely have a curious mind.
- [28:13]
Phil Agnew
Yes, I'm definitely a curious person.
- [28:15]
Stranger
I am a very, very curious person. Yes, definitely. I'm a curious person. Yes, I'm a very curious person.
- [28:23]
Phil Agnew
So people say they are curious, but would this tactic make them more likely to listen to Nudge? Would it actually pre suade them? Well? Yes, it did. Out of the 20 people who were first asked if they were curious, 19 said they would listen to Nudge.
- [28:39]
Stranger
Yeah, I'd really be interested in listening to a podcast like that as I would listen to this podcast.
- [28:45]
Phil Agnew
Yes, I would listen to a podcast like that.
- [28:48]
Stranger
I would 100% listen to this. I absolutely would. Yes, definitely. I would like to listen the podcast.
- [28:54]
Phil Agnew
So I would definitely listen to this podcast.
- [28:57]
Stranger
I think I would listen to a podcast like that. I absolutely would. Yes, I definitely listen to a podcast like Nudge.
- [29:03]
Phil Agnew
Only one of the pre sued group said they wouldn't listen.
- [29:08]
Stranger
I would say for me personally, I wouldn't listen to a podcast like this only because I am not really into podcasts now.
- [29:17]
Phil Agnew
It's small numbers of people, it's not scientifically reliable, it won't be published in a peer reviewed journal. But it did convince me. I asked 20 strangers if they would listen to nudge and four said no. I asked another 20 strangers if they were curious about the human mind and then asked if they would listen to Nudge. And then only one stranger said they wouldn't listen. That is a fairly dramatic change from just the addition of one innocuous question. Pre suasion seems to work. It convinced Brian's wife to marry him, it persuaded men to help a woman with a stolen phone, and it persuaded 19 out of 20 strangers to listen to Nudge. That is all for today folks. Thank you so much for listening. I had great fun chatting with Brian. He is incredibly knowledgeable on all things persuasion. If you want to learn more from him, here's where you should connect.
- [30:09]
Brian Ahern
Best place is LinkedIn and I will tell you if you don't give me a reason that you reached out to connect, you will hear from me, I will go back and say, how did you find me? And if you do give me a reason, I will still thank you. So you're going to have some actual communication with me. I like to keep social media social. The other place people can find me is my website, which is InfluencePeople Biz.
- [30:32]
Phil Agnew
B I Z. I've included links to Brian's LinkedIn and website in the show notes, so head there to connect with him. Secondly, a big thank you to Voxpop Me for running the video survey for me. With Voxbot Me, you can quickly run qualitative research using video surveys and live interview solutions. You can invite participants from their enormous panel and for video surveys, see results within a few hours. It's a fantastic tool, not just because it's fast and informative, but also because it has some wonderful analysis tools as well. If you want to try out Voxbot Me, go to the link in the show notes now. As you can imagine, when I'm running experiments like this, these episodes tend to take quite a lot of time to put together. This one took me a few weeks to create. So if you did enjoy it, I would really appreciate it if you would just share it with a friend or perhaps leave a review wherever you listen or maybe even share on your social media account. Anything you do, I will really appreciate it. But obviously do feel free to ignore me. You absolutely don't have to. As always, I'm your host, Phil Agnew. This is Nudge, the UK's number one marketing podcast, and I'll be back next week for another episode. Thank you so much for listening.