Jaeger Wise (2:39)

My name is J Gwise. I am a brewer, a broadcaster and I'm a food journalist as well.

Phil Agnew (2:45)

Jaga first heard about the Scottish tea scandal while working on the BBC's food programme.

Jaeger Wise (2:50)

So, on the food program, we like to say it's a program about food, from politics to pleasure. So we cover everything about food. But from a food journalistic perspective.

Phil Agnew (3:02)

In mid-2025, Jaga and her team started to look into Scottish tea.

Jaeger Wise (3:07)

Scottish tea is quite simple. It's tea that's grown in Scotland. And if you think about some of the places in which tea is grown, so places like India, China, Kenya, and you think about some of the climates in those regions, Scotland doesn't naturally fit within that growing geography. But the claim goes that because you are able to grow tea in places that are very mountainous, so places like Darjeeling, for example, you can take some of those skills and try and input it into Scotland. Scotland has quite unique challenges. It's a cold climate. There are very harsh winters, harsh in terms of wind, lots of exposure, frost damage. It doesn't naturally lend itself well to growing tea, but the marketing and the branding goes well. You can grow it in mountainous areas, in places of India, in places of China. You should be able to grow it in Scotland, too.

Phil Agnew (4:12)

Now, this claim, the claim that because you can grow tea in cold, mountainous places like Darjeeling in India, means you can also grow tea in cold places like Scotland. Well, it's an important claim. No one would ever believe a story about a tea plantation in Norfolk or a tea plantation in Malaga, because the climate in those regions are just so obviously wrong. But the altitude of the Scottish Highlands, it made Tam's claims more believable. Here's how the media described Tam O' Bran's tea. In 2016, O' Bran imported trees from

Interviewer/Interjector (4:45)

the foothills of the Himalayas before allowing them to acclimatise to Scotland's own harsh climate. The fog, rainfall and rich soil has in fact proved ideal for growing. And o' Brien says the cold produces a chemical stress in the leaves that actually helps create the appealing sweet flavour.

Phil Agnew (5:04)

Now, before we discuss whether or not this is true, and spoiler alert, it's not true. But before we get into that, I want to first highlight why this all seems believable. Because it does seem believable. I hear that news clip and I intuitively think that, you know, this makes sense. Tea grows in the Indian Highlands. Well, why can't it grow in the Scotland Highlands as well? Well, there's a reason this seems believable, and evidence for it comes from a really important 1978 experiment led by Ellen Langer. I've spoken about it before on the show. So for those who have heard it before, it's a bit of a repeat, but for many of you, it'll be new. Langer, along her colleagues Blank and Chenowitz, they tested what led people to process information mindfully, or what led people to use automatic cues, shortcuts to respond. In other words, why do some stories like TAMS really convince us immediately while others seem less believable and make us think twice? The main part of Langer's experiment was use of a library copy machine. So this is the 70s. Libraries would often have long lines of people with waiting to use the copy machine. And for the experiment, Lange and her colleagues attempted to cut in line to use the copy machine. So they needed to persuade people to let them cut in line. For the test, the researchers gave one of three reasons as to why they should cut in line. They only ever said one of these three reasons. They tested these three reasons on 120 different adults waiting in line across multiple days over a two week period. The first was what they called no reason. They simply asked, may I use the Xerox machine? That was the name of the copy machine and this was the control. The second is what they called the placebo reason. It said, may I use the Xerox machine because I have to make copies? It's kind of a null reason. People who are asking to push in line obviously need to make copies. You don't have to say may I use the machine because I want to make copies. And then the third reason was what they called the real reason. It was may I use the Xerox machine because I'm in a rush. The results are fascinating. When they gave no reason that first one, the control, 60% of people complied. Some people are very nice. They'll just let you push in line even if you don't have a reason. And then when they used the placebo reason, when they said may I use the Xerox machine because I have to make copies, this almost null reason, a massive 93% complied. And that's only slightly less than when they said the real reason, because I'm in a rush. When 94% complied, essentially they found something bizarre, even a meaningless reason. Dramatically increased compliance, saying may I use the Xerox machine because I have to make Copies increases compliance by 33 percentage points compared to just saying may I use the Xerox machine? It is a meaningless reason. It shouldn't make a difference to compliance, and yet it does. Langer went on to confirm this finding in two follow up experiments, this time with mailed questionnaires and inter office memos. She concluded that when communication follows familiar structural patterns, people often comply without really processing the semantic content. A simple structural cue like the word because can trigger automatic compliance. The paper argues that much complex social behaviour is mindless. It is driven by shortcuts rather than active reasoning. Tam o' Bran described tea growing in Scotland in very simple terms. He gave a believable reason as to why it would grow. He said the tea plant grows in the Highlands of India. We propagate it here in Scotland and it grows just as well, similar altitude. He doesn't just stop there. He goes on to say that in many ways the conditions in Scotland are actually better for growing tea.

Additional Expert/Commentator (8:41)

With modern agronomy techniques, we can take the benefit of brilliant soil, the best soil in the world in Scotland, very, very good water and abundance of it, and then manipulate the level of sunshine and also the humidity that that can bring about and then tea can grow in Scotland.

Phil Agnew (8:59)

Tam is lying here, but not everything he's saying is fictitious. It is actually possible to produce some tea in Scotland and Jaeger has tried some.

Jaeger Wise (9:08)

So I'm very lucky. On the food programme, we do get to taste a lot of food and drink, which is fantastic. So I've tasted a lot of tea in my time at the food program. But Scottish tea was something quite unique and quite different and I got the opportunity to taste it blind against other well known teas from around the world. And this particular brand that I tried was called Kineto's Gold. It was grown in Angus and it had a very fruity floral note. There was almost like a blackcurrant hint to it. Visually, it was a lovely golden orange hue and it was really quite delicious and very easy to pick out of the three tea samples that I tried. So there is a uniqueness in to it. But that uniqueness has a potential high

Phil Agnew (10:01)

price point, which makes you think buyers of Scottish tea should surely be doing a lot of due diligence. If they're spending 10 times, potentially 100 times more per kilo for Scottish tea rather than Indian tea, you'd think they would want to know a lot about the person who was growing the tea. So who was Tam o'? Brien?

Jaeger Wise (10:20)

Tam O Brand was a man who started a company called the Wee Tea Plantation and he claimed to be one of the first tea growers in Scotland. He was claiming to both grow tea in Scotland and also have the knowledge in order to procure and grow plants. So he. So there was two sides to this story. He was selling the Finished product, tea wise, the tea leaves. And he was also selling plants to other potential growers. His real name was Thomas Robinson. He claimed all sorts. So he claimed to be a tea expert, he claimed to be a scientist, a chemist, he was in the army. He claimed he invented the bag for life.

Phil Agnew (11:05)

We'll get to some of these claims later on, but before we do, I asked Jaeger to share exactly what type of tea Tam claimed to sell.

Jaeger Wise (11:12)

It was a type of tea called white tea, which is one of the least processed of all tea types. It comes from very young buds and it's known for its delicate flavors and has a very unique, very pale straw color. But the type of tea he chose was actually quite important because there's a lot of fairly poor quality white tea on the market. So it's quite a style that could be seen as quite forgiving. The fact that it wasn't top quality, the fact that it had a fantastic story, it was being grown in Scotland, the first tea being grown in Scotland, and the fact that he chose white tea did, to a certain extent help to cover up for a longer period of time the overall fraud that he was committing.

Phil Agnew (11:57)

With white tea. It's a little hard to gauge the provenance and the quality just by tasting it. And that made it easier for Tam to fool so many people. And Tam really did fool a lot of people.

Jaeger Wise (12:09)

Apparently he was a gentleman that came across as a bit of a country gent, very charming, and he fooled a lot of people. So a lot of people bought plants from him and he was able to sell his tea that he claimed, who grew in Scotland to the highest end of hotels possible, so places like the Dorchester, the Balmoral in Edinburgh, Fortnum and Masons. And he fooled the media. So we had all sorts of publications covering this story, the highest end publications, including the BBC.

Phil Agnew (12:44)

The BBC recorded several interviews with Tam o', Brien, including this interview on the One show, which at the time was a show that attracted around 5 million viewers per episode.

Jaeger Wise (12:54)

Surprisingly, here in not so sunny Scotland, we are now producing our very own home brew. The Wee Tea Company have become the first ever plantation in the country.

Phil Agnew (13:05)

Most marketers would kill for this level of promotion. So how did Tam manage to attract the eyes of so many journalists?

Jaeger Wise (13:12)

A lot of it was good old fashioned charm. So he was a very charming man. When you hear what others say about him, he's someone you wanted to trust. But there is that element of the whole tea industry wanted this story to be true. So there was a fair amount of leeway given and he was also everywhere. He was all over the press.

Phil Agnew (13:34)

The BBC covered it, ITV covered it, and even the international media profiled Tam. Here's a 2016 clip from CCTV News. This is the national television broadcaster for the People's Republic of China. Now let's meet a man who has led several lives. A soldier, an agronomist and an entrepreneur. Tam o' Brien now grows tea in the foothills of the Scottish Highlands and is the envy of those who once called him crazy. Jaeger was quick to tell me why so few broadcasters properly investigated Tam's claims.

Jaeger Wise (14:08)

It was done with very little scrutiny because the story was just so incredible. But he made a massive effort to just be in front of a lot of cameras and to get the word out there in the press. And the press really ran with this story. It was an exciting story. It's a story about provenance. It's a story about a Scottish producer doing something unique that hadn't been done before. The media definitely bit for the food

Phil Agnew (14:35)

program, Jaga interviewed one of the reporters who covered the story back in 2016.

Jaeger Wise (14:40)

It was interesting because one of our sister programs is a program called on youn Farm. BBC on youn Farm. And it was a producer and presenter called Kaz Graham who went to speak to Tam o' Brien and had him on the show. It's an interesting one because he kind of set it all up so that she didn't go to his actual production facility. There was always a reason why she couldn't see behind the curtain. It was too late in the season. There was this happening. There was. There was this plant down, et cetera, et cetera. There was always a technical reason. So they ended up on the show, show meeting at another production facility that wasn't his. But. But he'd kind of set it up in advance, but he was able to do this with. With all of the media. So when I spoke, spoke to Kaz, it was really interesting hearing from her perspective and the fact that she said she probably wouldn't do anything differently because it's. It's a very difficult kind of fraud to catch. And especially when you have the world's top tea buyers who have got tea sommeliers, tea experts on their side. So as far as the due diligence, you're looking towards them saying, oh, okay. Well, it's obviously gone through several layers of tea expertise to be able to be sold in these kind of establishments.

Phil Agnew (15:54)

This leads to the second psychological principle. Turmo Brand used to run this fraud. He. He extensively linked himself and his brand with other huge brands and organisations.

Court Reporter (16:07)

His tea was being sold at the Dorchester in London and at the Balmoral in Edinburgh, two of the UK's most luxury hotels. And media reports continued to fuel his popularity.

Phil Agnew (16:19)

In interviews he'd repeatedly claim that his tea was being drunk in a number of famous locations and by very well known people.

Additional Expert/Commentator (16:26)

The finest hotels and restaurants in the world in Paris, London, Edinburgh, New York and also we understand it's a favourite of the Queen.

Phil Agnew (16:36)

By linking his tea with top brands and influential people, Tam was benefiting from a behavioral science heuristic known as the halo effect. Put simply, the halo effect means that the positive impressions of one person or brand automatically spill over onto Tam's brand because of their perceived connection. And this boosts his perceived quality and credibility with without any real evidence. One 2023 study in the Journal of Marketing investigated this. Here the four researchers created ads for fictitious products. They'd promote these ads on Instagram, show them to participants in the lab and test them in many different real world settings. The ads were always identical except for one crucial difference. In some of the ads the researchers would claim that the product was co developed in collaboration with a very well known university. So for example, one ad for a skincare product would read formulated in collabor with researchers at the University of Oxford. But in the control condition this exact same ad would just read formulated by our in house research team. Across seven experiments, the researchers found that the university co developed products were perceived as more attractive and more innovative. People were willing to pay 65% more for a co collaborated product, 16% more likely to click on the ads and 2.46 times more likely to recommend those products to other buyers. In other words, linking your product with high profile, well regarded organizations and people makes others view your product far more positively.

Jaeger Wise (18:11)

There was a claim. Obviously we can't say whether this is true or not, but there was a claim that it was given by the Scottish government to Barack Obama.

Phil Agnew (18:19)

Tam o' Brien went even further claiming he got the idea to grow tea in Scotland from none other than Winston Churchill.

Additional Expert/Commentator (18:26)

The idea of growing tea in Scotland is not new. It was originally offered by Winston Churchill. He absolutely wanted to save the lives of merchant seamen who were bringing in shiploads of food and if we could have grown tea in Scotland the way he wanted, we would have ended up without so many loads coming in, without so many lives being risked.

Phil Agnew (18:47)

I found no evidence to back up that claim and I'm not surprised. Barack Obama, the Queen, Winston Churchill. This is a calculated almost Certainly fictitious use of the halo effect to make Tamo brands tea seem more attractive. There is a wealth of research to back this up. In another 1990s study, this time in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, researchers measured the persuasiveness of different claims based on who shared the actual claim. It turns out students found a speech about acid rain more persuasive when they were told it was written by an environmental studies major rather than a mathematics major, despite the content being identical in both scenarios. In other words, the exact same message becomes more convincing when it is associated with someone who seems credible in that domain. And which British citizen in 2015 seemed more credible on the quality of tea than the Queen of England?

Jaeger Wise (19:39)

The reputational gain that he had from very big companies accepting the tea and also selling the tea also helped as well.

Phil Agnew (19:51)

But it didn't help enough because eventually doubts began to emerge about Tam O Brand's claims.

Jaeger Wise (19:56)

The doubts actually began quite early. So there's one particular woman called Beverly Wainwright, who Tam o' Brann actually called at the beginning of the wee tea plantation. She said she became suspicious the minute she saw the tea. She said when she looked at it, the tea looked Chinese to her. It had very large tips on it. And he also said some other things that were suspicious. Number one was selling a huge quantity of tea. So to give you an example, Scotland at the moment, they are able to produce, as a tea industry, kilograms of tea. He was selling tons. So that gives you an idea in terms of just quantity wise, it wasn't really possible for him to be growing the amount of tea that he was selling in comparison to other producers. He also claimed to be selling tea two years after growing it. And Beverly says this is just impossible. If it could be done, people would be doing it. He also started claiming that he was making Scottish Matcha, which is just not possible. It's an incredibly complex process. He began to say he was making Scottish oolong, and that in particular requires quite complicated equipment. And there was just no evidence of any kind of equipment or production. There's no pictures. No. There was no one who was able to look behind the curtain of his factory to see this very expensive equipment. So a complaint was made to Food Standard Scotland and the Scottish Crime Unit began to look into it. And that's really where things really began to fall apart for Tam o'. Bran.

Phil Agnew (21:36)

And we'll cover exactly how Tam was caught after this quick break. The podcast I'd like to recommend to you today, after you finish listening to Nudge, is the Hustle Daily Show. It is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. The Hustle Daily show brings you a very healthy dose of irreverent, offbeat and informative takes on business and tech news. If you'd like an interesting episode to get you hooked on this podcast, there's a recent episode called the AI App that makes your dream vacation a digital reality. If you want to listen to that, just go and search for the Hustle Daily show wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome back. You are listening to the Nudge Podcast with me, Phil Agnew. Today with Jaguar Wise. We're covering Tam o', Bran, his fictitious Scottish tea plantation, and how he was eventually caught.

Jaeger Wise (22:27)

There was a big part to play about Aberdeen University, so they developed a test that showed a relationship between plant chemistry and the soil it's grown in. So they were able to gather samples from the other tea producers in Scotland and able to create almost a fingerprint. And they were able to do the same for tea grown in other regions around the world. And they tested their the tea that he claimed was his, and it really gave them pretty irrefutable proof that the tea that he was producing was not grown in Scotland. It then goes to the Crown Prosecution Service and Tam is now serving three and a half years in jail. And he committed over half a million pounds of tea fraud.

Court Reporter (23:18)

Mr. O' Brien told the court today his arrogance made him believe he knew best, jailing him to three and a half years. The judge said this £550,000 scam had taken significant and complex planning and wasn't victimless.

Prosecutor (23:34)

The tall tales of Tam o' Bran weren't limited to tea. He told people he'd spent years living in a canoe on the Amazon, that he'd been an army bomb disposal expert and that he invented the supermarket bag for life. During his trial, prosecutors said he'd lied to everyone he encountered.

Phil Agnew (23:54)

When I read about his sentencing, I've got to say I thought Tam's claims, I really thought they sounded ridiculous. It's so clear in hindsight that he was such a blagger. He lied about his name, his career, his inventions. He lied about who he sold the tea to and where the tea came from. He was so clearly a serial liar. And it kind of surprised me how he fooled so many people. Massive brands like Fortnum and Mason, huge media outlets like the BBC and thousands upon thousands of customers. And the main reason, the main reason I think he got away with it is because really, despite being A nation of tea lovers, us Brits, we know very, very little about the product.

Jaeger Wise (24:34)

Yeah, there is a shocking lack of tea knowledge within the uk considering we're such high tea consumers. So a lot of consumers do think tea is grown in the uk, which. Well, there is some tea being going in Scotland, but the majority of our tea obviously does not come from the uk. It comes from places like Kenya, China, Sri Lanka.

Phil Agnew (24:55)

On the food programme, Jaeger reported that around 20% of Brits actually think Yorkshire tea is grown in Yorkshire. Now, when I heard this, I thought it was a bit silly. I've been lucky enough to go to tea plantations in India, in Sri Lanka, in Malaysia, I've seen the bright, sunny, high altitude climates that are needed for tea to grow. And I thought it was kind of incredible that any Brit would ever believe that tea could possibly grow in damp, wet, overcast British Isles. But then I googled it and it turns out lots of people think this as a very popular Reddit thread, which is someone asking, is Yorkshire tea grown in Yorkshire? Again, you kind of think this is ridiculous. Until I then went and had a look at my box of Yorkshire tea. The box which I've got right in front of me right now, I'd argue this box. Now I've taken a closer look at it, it's quite misleading. So I'm going to walk you through the box. On the top you've got the logo and it reads Taylors of Harrogate. Harrogate is a town in Yorkshire. And then the main logo obviously says Yorkshire Tea. On the front it says outstanding tea since 1886. The box is covered all around with idyllic paintings of the Yorkshire countryside. You've got a small brick cottage with a little red door. You've got a cricket match going on, sheep resting in the field, castles in the background. It's all very, very British. On the back of the box there is a long description about how Yorkshire tea is a proper brew. It states, and I quote, when we say our tea is proper, we mean it's really good quality and it's made with respect for people and the. And yet nowhere does Yorkshire tea mention the actual people who are picking the tea leaves. They don't tell you where the tea is actually from. On the underside of the box you get to the product's detailed information and I was quite certain I'd find out more about the tea's origin. Here there is a section on brewing instructions on how to recycle their brew. Promise nothing on origin yet in the ingredients. It just reads black tea, not Indian black tea or Sri Lankan black tea. In fact, there's just one line which alludes to its origin. It reads, blended and packed in the UK by Taylors of Harrogate, North Yorkshire. HG27LD. There is nothing on this box that indicates where the tea is from, who picked it and how it arrived in the uk. But it's not just negligent descriptions. It is considered because all of the information on the box is designed to give you the impression that this tea could be grown in Yorkshire. Everything on the box, from the imagery to the words, allude to the fact that it has proper British tea. So why does Yorkshire tea do this? Why doesn't it say, this is a blend of 20 teas from across the world and here are the types of people who pick it? Well, it's quite simple. Evidence reveals that we unfortunately have a bias for products produced in countries that we already hold in high regard. Evidence for this comes from a 2012 study in the Journal of International Marketing. It's been cited over 600 times. It's called, are consumers really willing to pay more for a favorable country image? A study of country of origin effects on willingness to pay. To explain the study, I want you to imagine a scenario. Imagine you are thinking of buying a new pair of running trainers. Usually you buy Nike, but this time you're considering Umbro, a lesser known brand. Then you find out that Umbro makes their shoes in the UK and you're from the uk, so you think, nice, it's good to support locally made brands. You're willing to pay a decent price for it. But the next day you hear that Umbro are moving their production to South Korea. Now, would you still pay the same? Well, according to the researchers, no, you wouldn't. When Umbro was said to have been made in the UK, people were happy to pay 81 pounds for it. This is Brits and Westerners who lived abroad. But when they heard that the shoes were actually made in South Korea, the amount people were willing to Pay dropped to pound 61. Same shoes, different country of origin, 18% drop in willingness to pay. The researchers called this the country image. Effectively, researchers ran a similar test with bottled water. They told people the same brand either came from France or Austria. People were willing to pay 33% more if it came from France, not because they liked the brand anymore. They didn't even know the brand. It was purely about how they felt about the country. France sounded premium, Austria less so. I believe Tam o' Brien benefited from the Same effect with his tea. By selling Scottish tea, a product from a country that people have exceedingly positive associations with, knew people would be more willing to believe his story. But more importantly, he also knew that they'd be willing to pay much more for his tea. This clip makes it clear, he says Scottish tea will obviously be better because Scotland is better.

Additional Expert/Commentator (29:30)

With modern agronomy techniques, we can take the benefit of brilliant soil, the best soil in the world in Scotland. Very, very good water and abundance of it.

Phil Agnew (29:39)

And he says how British producers of tea will obviously be better than Sri Lankan or Indian producers. Because us Brits know so much about

Jaeger Wise (29:46)

tea, you're hoping to export this and for the Chinese to be drinking Scottish homebrew.

Additional Expert/Commentator (29:51)

We've got a lot of people interested. The British know a lot about tea. We know the flavour of it, we understand what's in the cup.

Phil Agnew (29:58)

TAM is just using the country of origin effect here. The strong bias Western customers have for Western countries. It's fraudulent, but unfortunately, I think it is commonplace. From what I can tell, Yorkshire tea attempt to use the exact same tactic. They promote their tea as if it's grown right on the Yorkshire Dales and remove any reference on their packaging to the real locations and individuals actually picking the tea. It's major tea producers in the UK that contribute to the lack of knowledge consumers have. And it's that lack of knowledge that helped TAM sell so much tea.

Jaeger Wise (30:27)

So that that lack of education really did help him to commit this fraud, because, for example, he was claiming to be the first tea grower in Scotland. So you had this situation where no one knew what Scottish tea tasted like, so there was no benchmark to compare his tea against. And also the particular type of tea he chose helped. So the white tea in particular, it did help to cloud a lot of perspectives. But absolutely, the lack of general UK tea knowledge was a massive factor in why he was able to get away with it. For the length of time. He was able to get away with it.

Phil Agnew (31:09)

I asked Jaeger to sum up why Tam o' Brien's story garnered so much attention.

Jaeger Wise (31:14)

People wanted tea to be grown in Scotland. There's a charm to that story and

Phil Agnew (31:20)

it's a story that so many wanted to believe.

Interviewer/Interjector (31:23)

The 500kg he produces each season isn't much, but his artisanal tea is in great demand. Already sold out for the next four years.

Jaeger Wise (31:32)

There was a charm to him. I think it does speak to the power of a good yarn, the power of a good story. He was able to sell his story and he was believed we are selling

Additional Expert/Commentator (31:47)

tea to China, we're not selling sand to Arabs or ice to the Eskimos.

Jaeger Wise (31:51)

He sold his story and as a consequence sold lots and lots of tea.

Phil Agnew (31:57)

There's not much more left to cover. In today's episode, we've broken down the fraud. We've covered how providing a fictitious yet easy to process reason made his claims more believable. We've highlighted his use of the halo effect, linking his tea to high profile organisations and people made it even more popular. And most importantly, I think we've gone over the country origin effect, this subconscious bias that most of us have for products produced in regions that we already have a strong preference for. Tam's guilty of pulling the wool over his customers eyes. But I think the tea industry as a whole attempts some of the same things. No leading British manufacturer of tea is proudly sharing where their tea is actually from. And many, especially Yorkshire tea, go out of their way to imply that the tea is actually produced just on your doorstep. This allows them to benefit from the same country of origin effect that Tam leveraged himself. But above all the effects, all the psychological tactics that Tam used to persuade, above all, he was just a very good liar. In researching today's episode, I found this old interview with Tam in the depths of YouTube. Only 300 other people have viewed it, so I think it's relatively obscure. But in this interview, about halfway through, Tam does something which I think is really interesting. He says a lie. It's an obvious lie, but this time he's called out for the lie. And yet his response to being called out for lying reveals an awful lot about the type of person he was. It's an interview with BBC Radio Scotland and in it he is talking about why Scottish tea is able to grow despite there being so much less sunlight in the Scottish Highlands to explain it. He gives an example of asparagus and rhubarb growing in total darkness. All of that is true. Asparagus and rhubarb can grow in darkness, especially rhubarb. But then he says an obvious lie. He says that asparagus and rhubarb can grow so quickly in the dark that farmers can actually hear it growing.

Additional Expert/Commentator (33:45)

The asparagus growers of Spain and France do exactly the same. And you can hear, if you stand in the growing sheds, you can hear those plants growing, they're growing so fast.

Phil Agnew (33:54)

But the interviewer, he just doesn't believe him.

Interviewer/Interjector (33:57)

So if that's not literal, you can't seriously hear them.

Phil Agnew (34:01)

What would you do here? Now, most of us have got to this stage before we've exaggerated a bit like this before we've said something, we've exaggerated a little bit and then someone's called us out. Okay. Someone says, come on, that can't be true. I think the vast majority of level headed people would back down here. They'd say, oh, you're probably right. Yeah, I probably overached that. But that is not what Tam does.

Interviewer/Interjector (34:24)

So that's not literal. You can't seriously hear them.

Additional Expert/Commentator (34:28)

Oh, wow. Yes you can. Can you? Yeah. What does it sound like? It sounds like a rather eerie form of slow creature who's eventually going to eat you. But no, no, no, you can. It's like a. You can hear a crackling, a groaning and crackling as those plants grow. So with.

Phil Agnew (34:48)

With aspiring, Tam doubles down on his lie. He is a serial liar. I think if you listen carefully, you can even tell that he knows he's making it all up. And yet he shows no remorse for doing so. And no filter, no ability to stop. This is a man who was, I think, addicted to lying. He couldn't help himself and for years, so many people believed him. But eventually all of those lies caught up with him. That is all for today's episode of Nudge, folks. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to the brilliant Jaeger Weiss for coming on and sharing so much about this story. For more about Jaeger, you can visit her website. Just click the link in the show notes. And if you want the sources for the papers cited in today's episode, you can find them in the show notes. I'm the host and creator of Nudge Podcast, Phil Agnew, and I'll be back on Nudge with another episode next Monday. Thank you so much for listening. See you next Monday. Bye bye.