Learn 7 scientifically-backed marketing tips in 27 minutes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nudge – "Learn 7 Scientifically-Backed Marketing Tips in 27 Minutes"

Episode Details:

• Title: Learn 7 Scientifically-Backed Marketing Tips in 27 Minutes
• Host: Phill Agnew
• Guest: Bas Wouters, Author of Online Influence and CEO of Cialdini Institute
• Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Nudge, host Phill Agnew sits down with Bas Wouters, a renowned expert in persuasion and behavioral design. Together, they explore seven scientifically-backed marketing strategies that can significantly enhance your marketing efforts. Drawing from real-world examples and behavioral science principles, Bas provides actionable tips to help marketers drive better results.

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1. Harness the Power of Social Proof

Key Points: Social proof leverages the actions of others to influence potential customers. By showcasing what similar individuals are doing, businesses can significantly boost their sales and engagement.

Example:
Bas shares a compelling case from Nyx Cosmetics, which initially added the line "71 beauties have viewed this product today" beneath their buy button, resulting in a 33% increase in purchases. By refining this to "71 beauties have purchased this product," Nyx saw a staggering 300% uplift in sales.

Notable Quote:
"When we learn that 71 others have bought the product, we are far more likely to buy it ourselves." – Bas Wouters [00:40]

Actionable Tips:

1. Personalize Your Audience: Use terminology that resonates with your customers (e.g., "beauties" for makeup buyers).
2. Specify Desired Behavior: Clearly state the action you want users to take (e.g., "purchased" instead of "viewed").
3. Use Exact Numbers: Precise figures enhance trust (e.g., "71" vs. "70").

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2. Leverage Anticipatory Enthusiasm

Key Points: Anticipatory enthusiasm refers to the dopamine release experienced when anticipating a reward, which motivates action more effectively than the reward itself.

Example:
A café implemented a surprise offer where customers could receive a gift by scanning a QR code, leaving a review, and asking the staff. This approach harnessed dopamine's anticipatory effect, encouraging customers to engage and leave reviews—something they ordinarily wouldn't do.

Notable Quote:
"Dopamine is released when we see a future reward, giving us the power to move forward." – Bas Wouters [06:26]

Actionable Tips:

1. Offer Variable Rewards: Uncertain rewards can double the motivational effect.
2. Visualize Benefits: Make sure customers can clearly imagine the rewards they might receive.

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3. Break Down Big Steps into Smaller Commitments

Key Points: Large, daunting tasks can deter potential customers. By dividing these into smaller, manageable steps, you can increase engagement and conversions.

Example:
A job vacancy platform requiring users to download an app and record a video initially faced low application rates. By introducing an intermediate written application step, they boosted video applications by 25%.

Notable Quote:
"Big steps can be off-putting, but paving the way with small steps increases the likelihood of commitment." – Bas Wouters [10:32]

Actionable Tips:

1. Introduce Intermediate Steps: Ease users into the process with smaller commitments.
2. Provide Guidance: Offer tips and support at each step to facilitate progression.

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4. Utilize Loss Aversion Messaging

Key Points: People are more motivated to avoid losses than to achieve gains. Framing your message around what customers stand to lose can be a powerful motivator.

Example:
Bas discusses an experiment where loss-framed messages—such as "Only 15% of women live five years or more with late detection"—resulted in a 125% increase in breast cancer screenings compared to gain-framed messages.

Notable Quote:
"We are twice as motivated to avoid loss than to gain something." – Bas Wouters [12:38]

Actionable Tips:

1. Frame Messages Around Losses: Highlight what customers miss out on if they don't take action.
2. Use Relatable Examples: Ensure the loss is something your audience values.

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5. Provide a Reason to Act

Key Points: Offering a reason, even if it's not particularly strong, can significantly increase the likelihood of customer action. People are more inclined to comply when given a rationale.

Example:
A Dutch postal service increased conversions by 41% by redesigning their landing page to include clear reasons for forwarding mail, coupled with supportive imagery and a streamlined design.

Notable Quote:
"Giving a reason boosts action, even if the reason isn't particularly valid." – Kip Bodnar [16:31]

Actionable Tips:

1. Always Provide a Reason: Whether it's personal or transactional, a reason facilitates decision-making.
2. Keep it Simple: Avoid overcomplicating the message; clarity drives effectiveness.

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6. Reduce the Number of Choices

Key Points: Too many options can overwhelm customers, leading to decision paralysis. Limiting choices can streamline decision-making and increase conversions.

Example:
Unbounce reduced their available time slots from four to three for demo bookings, resulting in a 16% increase in conversions. Similarly, a web shop selling boots saw sales rise by 25% by simplifying their filter options.

Notable Quote:
"We are not so good at making choices when presented with too many options." – Bas Wouters [19:08]

Actionable Tips:

1. Limit Options: Aim for a minimum of three and a maximum of five choices.
2. Simplify Navigation: Apply this principle to product filters and decision points on your website.

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7. Always Offer More Than One Choice (Hobson Plus One)

Key Points: Providing at least two options prevents customers from experiencing decision fatigue and increases engagement. The "Hobson Plus One" rule suggests adding an additional choice to ensure customers feel empowered to make a decision.

Example:
A Dutch bank enhanced their survey response rate by doubling it when they introduced a second option alongside the main call-to-action. Similarly, an insurance company saw a 244.7% increase in conversion rates by providing an additional, albeit unconventional, choice.

Notable Quote:
"Offering more than one choice prevents decision paralysis and encourages action." – Bas Wouters [21:04]

Actionable Tips:

1. Provide Dual Options: Always include at least two actionable choices for the customer.
2. Avoid Restrictive Options: Ensure that customers don’t feel forced into a single path.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Bas Wouters shares seven actionable, science-backed marketing strategies that can transform your approach:

1. Personalized Social Proof: Enhanced engagement by showcasing relatable actions.
2. Anticipatory Enthusiasm: Leveraged dopamine's power to motivate customer actions.
3. Incremental Commitments: Increased applications by breaking down processes.
4. Loss Aversion Messaging: Significantly boosted responses by framing around losses.
5. Providing Reasons: Enhanced conversions by giving customers a rationale.
6. Choice Reduction: Streamlined decisions to prevent overwhelm and boost sales.
7. Hobson Plus One: Offered multiple choices to encourage greater engagement.

Notable Quote:
"These seven tips are all backed by reliable behavioral science. Whenever I've referenced a paper or a study, I've cited it in today's show notes." – Kip Bodnar [23:35]

Bas also invites listeners to explore more through his Online Influence Academy, which offers in-depth lessons and a community forum for continuous learning and application of these principles.

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Additional Resources:

• Online Influence Academy: [Link in Show Notes]
• Full Study References: Available in the episode’s show notes.
• Follow Bas Wouters: For more tips and insights on behavioral design and marketing strategies.

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By implementing these scientifically-backed strategies, marketers can effectively enhance their campaigns, drive higher conversions, and build more meaningful connections with their audience. Whether you're looking to optimize your website, refine your messaging, or streamline your customer journey, these tips offer a robust foundation grounded in behavioral science.

Transcript

[Bas Wouters]

And what I think is the most valuable tip I can give about social proof is the following.

[Kip Bodnar]

That is Bas Walters. He is an expert in the field of persuasion and behavioral design. And today I have asked him to share seven scientifically backed tips to improve your marketing. To start with, he shared a study involving the beauty brand Nyx Cosmetics.

[Bas Wouters]

They had a buy button. So they sell makeup, the web shop and they had a buy button. And then they added one sentence, small sentence underneath that buy button, which says 71 beauties have viewed this product today.

[Kip Bodnar]

Why would they say 71 beauties have viewed this product? Well, to leverage social proof. Social proof is the principle that suggests we follow the actions of others. Adding a most popular title to an option on a menu is proven to boost the sales of that item by 13 to 20%. So did NYU NYX increase sales with their 71 beauties copy?

[Bas Wouters]

Well, yes, the amount of purchases increased with 33%.

[Kip Bodnar]

But Nyx found that they could tweak this social proof to make that line even more persuasive.

[Bas Wouters]

Now they changed one word and the plus 33% became plus hundred, or in other words, another increase of 300%. If you go from plus 33 to plus 100, the word they changed was viewed and the sentence became 71 beauties have purchased this product.

[Kip Bodnar]

Today we follow the actions of others. When we learn that 71 others have bought the product, we will be far more likely to buy it ourselves.

[Bas Wouters]

And now my tip for everybody is how can you create such simple and powerful sentence? We have this data what people doing on a product page or a landing page. Like I said, it's often in Google Analytics and we can even automate it to show it. How do you create those sentences? Three criteria. One, people like me on Nyx, they named them beauties. Because if you buy makeup, probably you want to be beautiful. Then the second criteria is name the desired behavior literally. So what Nyx wanted was not people viewing their product, but purchasing their product. So when they changed that word, they saw a huge increase. The third criteria is exact numbers boost trust. So they didn't have 70 beauties, but 71. That's something funny in our brain. If we see 70, then we think, well, maybe you made that up. 71, we think, wow, that cannot be made up. It's completely true.

[Kip Bodnar]

Show your audience what people like them do. Name the desired behavior literally and use exact numbers to boost trigger trust. I wanted to test this specifically, I wanted to test the people like me part of social proof. Nyx referred to their customers as beauties because that's how their customers want to be perceived. But my audience wants to be perceived as great marketers. So for my experiment I created two subject lines for my email newsletter. The control read why these four ads stick in your mind and then I created a variant, a variant which leveraged this People like you social proof. This variant said why the best marketers study these four ads. So one was why these four ads stick in your mind. The other, the variant was why the best marketers studied these four ads. By saying the best marketers, I hoped to benefit from the people like me tactic. And I did. Each email went to 1,379 marketers and the second version, inspired by Bass, had a 6.4% higher open rate. You can click the link in the Show Notes to view the full stats on that study, but that is just one tip. After this break, BAS will cover six more scientifically backed marketing tips that you can use online. Cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty impossible even with the best behavioral science, but that is exactly what Sandler training did with HubSpot. They use Breeze, HubSpot's AI powered tools to tailor every customer interaction without the interaction sounding robotic or predictable. And the results were pretty incredible. Click through rates jumped by 25%, qualified leads quadrupled, and people spent three times longer on their landing pages. Go to HubSpot.com to see how Breez can help your business grow. Today I'm joined by the fantastic Bas Wouters.

[Bas Wouters]

I am author of the book Online Influence and I'm also the co founder and CEO of Cialdini Institute where I partner with the godfather of influence, Dr. Robert Cialdini.

[Kip Bodnar]

Now let's face it, many of you have probably heard of that social proof example before. I've shared examples like that plenty of times on the show, so BAS was very quick to give me a tip that he thought some of you would not have heard of before.

[Bas Wouters]

For me, this is a very interesting principle that often not so many people are aware it has to do with dopamine release. And most people know dopamine is a neurotransmitter, but it's associated that we are feeling good, feeling happy. But dopamine does something else. It gives us power to take action. Now there's an interesting study because previously scientists assumed that dopamine is released when we have the reward. But like I said, dopamine is also giving us power and you need power to get the reward.

[Kip Bodnar]

Bass is suggesting that dopamine is released not once a reward has been received. But when we're anticipating that reward, here's a study to prove it.

[Bas Wouters]

So what a study done. And don't ask me about opinion about animal testing, but this was done with a monkey. And the monkey saw images. And when a banana showed up, if he pressed the button, the monkey got banana juice, which the monkey liked.

[Kip Bodnar]

This is a 2015 study which, as always, is cited in the show notes.

[Bas Wouters]

And then they saw when the dopamine actually was released. The dopamine was released when he saw the image of the banana, not when he got the banana juice. Actually, then the dopamine was reduced. When we see a future reward, dopamine is released. It makes us feel good and we create power to move forward.

[Kip Bodnar]

This is known in the literature as anticipatory enthusiasm. Our dopamine levels increase when we anticipate a reward, and they actually decrease when that reward is gained. But the researchers in that 2015 study found a way to double the amount of dopamine the monkey experienced. It wasn't by offering more banana juice or showing more banana images. In fact, it was doing the opposite.

[Bas Wouters]

But maybe then, a very interesting thing in that study, then what they did, the Monkey got only 50% of the time, it got banana juice. So the reward became uncertain. Then the amount of dopamine, what was released, doubled. This also explains why gambling is addictive. It's an uncertain reward and people keep on pressing buttons or keep on going on, because all the time, dopamine is actually released on the gambling itself, not on winning the prize.

[Kip Bodnar]

Uncertain rewards are incredibly motivating. I have experienced this myself at a cafe. I was sitting in the cafe, I was enjoying my coffee, and I saw a sign on the table. The sign said, do you want to receive a surprise? It went on to say, here's what you've got to do. One, scan the QR code. Two, give us a review. And three, ask the staff for your surprise. Now, I really hardly ever leave reviews, but I just couldn't help myself. The dopamine I experienced, just anticipating what this surprise reward could have been, it motivated me to act. I did. I left my review, I went to the staff and I got an energy bar as a gift. Now, if the cafe had said, leave a review and we'll give you an energy bar, there is absolutely no way I would have left a review. I don't even like energy bars. But it was the unexpected surprise that drove me to act. So, two lessons from Bassett. One is to try and offer uncertain rewards, and two, make sure customers can visualize those rewards and benefits.

[Bas Wouters]

I have one example here. It was from a company that sold custom license plates and they first had a pretty generic image and then they had a Porsche with a cool license plate on it. The amount of conversions was 210% more, only changing the image, showing what people actually got. They could visualize what they would get if they would buy.

[Kip Bodnar]

It doesn't just work with benefits, it works with punishments as well. The Behavioural Insight team helped redesign the DVLA letter to encourage British drivers to pay their tax on time. Now, many drivers ignore these letters and in the past it cost the DVLA £40 million in yearly lost revenue. The Behavioural Insights team ran an experiment where some drivers received an image of themselves in the vehicle driving the vehicle, and that image was added to the letter. The hypothesis was that the image might help drivers to visualise the punishment. You're losing this car, this car you're driving, which we've got a picture of in the letter, if you don't pay your tax. The trial involved 250,000 unlicensed vehicles and the new letter visualising the punishment was 20% more effective than the original, which, of course, when you're losing £40 million a year, is an awful lot. Alright, let's move on to another tip. This one was used to increase job applications.

[Bas Wouters]

What the example is, it was a company that wanted to get more people to opt in to acquire the job.

[Kip Bodnar]

The company was a job vacancy platform that allowed people to apply for jobs via video messages.

[Bas Wouters]

But they had quite a tough flow, so to say, with what we call hard steps, not baby steps, big steps.

[Kip Bodnar]

Applying for these jobs was difficult.

[Bas Wouters]

You clicked on an ad, then you were asked to download an app. When you download the app, you were asked to record a video. So these are quite big steps for people. Now I need to download an ad. That's not common to need to do. And then you needed to record a video of yourself.

[Kip Bodnar]

Bass and his team implemented a change that increased video applications by 25%. Here's what they did.

[Bas Wouters]

So what happened? What we did was click on the ad come to explanation page. No, you got a message. Ah, great, you're here. You can go to the next round. To go to the next round, download the app. So one step, one message in between.

[Kip Bodnar]

And one step in between, they added a step. They didn't immediately ask the applicant to download the app. They first asked them to do a short written application. Shortly after they finished this application, the applicant would get a message saying, congratulations, you're through. To the next round. So download the app to complete your next video round application.

[Bas Wouters]

Then if people downloaded the app, they will not right away ask record a video, we add a step there and say well, here are some tips how you can present yourself and make the best recording. And then they were asked to record well. That led to about 25% more job applications.

[Kip Bodnar]

In his book, Bass writes how big steps such as downloading a white paper, buying a product or signing up for a training course well, they can be off putting by paving the way with small steps, your visitor's commitment is likely to grow and the chance that they will eventually take a much bigger step increases. That previous example boosted downloads by 20%. But Bass next example reduced customer cancellations by 90%. He did so by using the principle of loss aversion.

[Bas Wouters]

So in general loss aversion says we are double more motivated to avoid loss than to gain something. The big takeaway there is we shouldn't tell people what is to win if they say yes. We should tell them if they say no to us what they stand to lose or what they are missing out on. And an example of an ad the message was relieved from back pain. That's the wind frame or and this may be a tough one, but this is the example that they use avoid open back surgery. So now the back surgery is lost. Maybe a bit exaggerated, but click through rates was increased by 46%. What shows this? Think if you create a message not what there's to win, but what's there to lose. And then a really funny one was from for Dutch lottery and people unsubscribe so they want people to not do that. So they tried many messages and they tried also many loss aversion messages. So there was tried. You will no longer enjoy the benefits of this program product. You will not longer support our charities. You will not enjoy new features that are coming. But the winner was and this shows also irrationality of people. You will lose your loyalty points on that message 90% of the customers. But I don't believe a single customer was aware of having loyalty points. Who wakes up in the morning and thinks you know what I have, I have loyalty points from this lottery. But that message losing actually something that they had was the big winner.

[Kip Bodnar]

In another experiment by the famous researcher Elliot Aronson, who I've cited plenty of times on the show, women were shown one of two messages encouraging them to book a breast cancer screening. The first message said with early detection survival rate is 100%. Get screened with early detection survival rate is 100% get screened. It's a really good message. But they created a second message which focused on potential loss. It was inspired by loss aversion. It read, Only 15% of women live five years or more with late detection get screened. So that's only 15% of women live five years or more with late detection. That second loss aversion message led to 125% more screenings. The next example Bass had for me is inspired by a 1978 study that some of you may know.

[Bas Wouters]

It's a very famous, well known study where people are waiting in line for a copy machine and somebody asked, can I skip the line? And people probably were a bit friendly back then, but 60% said yes, you can skip the line. Then they did another approach. Can I skip the line because I'm running late and I really need these copies? 94% said yes, they now got a reason. The most interesting part is yet to come. Now they did the approach, can I skip the line because I need to make copies? What is everybody else needs to do that's waiting in line to make copy for a copy machine, probably making copies. But 93% said yes. So what this research shows and later on other research, if we get a reason why we should do something, our motivation heavily increase even if the reason is not really valid.

[Kip Bodnar]

Can I cut in line because I need to make copies? Works 93% of the time. While just saying, can I cut in line? Only works 60% of the time. Giving a reason boosts action. And Bas says we can apply this principle online as well.

[Bas Wouters]

A way where this is used is for in Belgium at B Post they had a service when people move houses. I think in every country they have this service. You can go to the government postal office and say, well, if I still get mail on my old address, forward it to my new address. That was this service. And they had a certain type of landing page. Then we redesigned it to something very simple. It was redesigned to a header. Three checkboxes with a reason why, a good image with anticipatory enthusiasm and one single button, one single prompt, 41% more sales.

[Kip Bodnar]

The reason why, combined with the image, simple design and a good prompt helped increase conversions by 41%. All right, we've covered how social proof boosted sales for NYX Makeup, how anticipatory enthusiasm increased reviews for the cafe I was sitting in, how smaller steps increased job applicants by 25% and how loss aversion messaging increased breast cancer screenings by 125%. But we are not done after this quick break, Bas will share two more tips, including how one company increased the number of meetings its sales team booked by reducing the choice it offered its customers. All of that coming up. Marketing against the Grain, hosted by Kip Bodnar and Kieran Flanagan, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. If you want to know what's happening right now in marketing, what's coming ahead, and how you can lead the way, this podcast is perfect for you. If you want an episode to get you started, I would suggest you search for my episode on Marketing against the Grain. Just search for Phil Agnew on the Marketing against the Grain feed and you'll hear me talk about the perils of using AI for marketing. So go and listen to Marketing against the Grain. Wherever you get your podcasts, imagine you are a salesperson. You are emailing potential customers, asking them to book in a meeting with you. They say yes, and you now need to offer them time for a call. Now, conventional wisdom suggests that you should offer them as many times as possible. You should say, here are all the times I'm free over the next few weeks. That makes the most sense. It gives the customers the most amount of time to pick and decreases the chances that there'll be a clash. It makes conventional sense, but perhaps it's not the best message. See, BAS has evidence to suggest that offering less availability can actually increase the number of signups. Here's what we think is that we.

[Bas Wouters]

Love to have choices, but actually we are not so good in making choices. What actually happens if we get too many choices? We choose not to choose. What we always say. Maximum five. More than five people choose not to choose. Ideally three.

[Kip Bodnar]

In his book, BAS shares a real world example from the software company Unbounce.

[Bas Wouters]

What happened with Unbounce? They had a page to join a free demo and they gave you four time slots. That sounds rationally. Well, then I can pick four time slots. It's easier to to match what in your calendar. Actually, when they reduced it to three timeslots, conversions increased with 16%.

[Kip Bodnar]

Reducing the number of call slots, increased conversions. This same principle can be applied to online sales as well.

[Bas Wouters]

Now, what is interesting, this also applies to filters. And I think there's a big lesson, especially for listeners that have a web shop. Let's say you sell shoes and you have all types of shoes. We like to show them all, but maybe you want first a filter. Summer shoes, winter shoes, or maybe sneakers, boots, and then a NEX filter and a neck. Because much More people will continue the flow and find much quicker what they're looking for. And actually we have such a case in a web shop that sold boots. And by changing the options in the filter menu, we were able to increase sales with 25%.

[Kip Bodnar]

Simply reducing the number of filters helped increase sales. But Bass encourages you to remember the minimum three choices, maximum five. It's always important to offer some choice because offering no choice at all will backfire as well. To explain why, I'll need Bas to explain the Hobson plus one rule.

[Bas Wouters]

Thomas Hobson was actually somebody that lived in the UK and he had a postal delivery service in the 1700s. So it was with horses. And because he not always was delivering posts, he also rented out his horses so people could make a ride. But he didn't want that. People all the time choose the best and the quickest horse because it would wear him out and he could not easily deliver the meal anymore. So what he did, when people came out to rent the horse, he showed you all around all the stables and then he said, you can only pick this horse. So you got one choice. That became known as the Hobson choice. Now online. In this situation, the 17 Honda people traveled to him and they were standing there, so they really wanted the horse and they had no other way than accepting the Hobson choice, the only choice he gave them. Online, we always have another choice and that choice is somewhere in the right top on our desktop and it's a red cross, go away. So we always have two choices. Now what we say the Hobson plus one means add an additional choice.

[Kip Bodnar]

Bas has tested this himself. He worked with a Dutch bank that wanted to increase its survey responses. The email the bank sent out to customers said, dear customer name, can you help us improve our website? And then they included a button saying, yes, I want to help. Click that button and you get the survey. Bas knew this would backfire. Only offering one choice causes reactance and it stops people from acting. So he added a second button alongside yes, I want to help. He added a button that said, maybe later offering that second option. That Hobson plus one choice doubled the number of survey responses that the Dutch bank received. Bas has also tested this with an insurance company. Here's what he did.

[Bas Wouters]

And they had a call to action, Create your insurance package. Then we added button create your insurance packets text links share this on LinkedIn. Who in their right mind wants to share on LinkedIn? They are going to create an insurance package. You would say nobody. But it was also, we could test this. The click through rate to start creating your insurance package was increased by 244.7% only because reducing the option making the option of doing nothing going away less available.

[Kip Bodnar]

Today we have covered seven tips that you can apply to your online marketing. The first is that you can use social proof that's personalized to your audience and it works. It improved my email open rate by 6.4%. Second, offer variable rewards. It helped one cafe generate 1,200 five star reviews. The third, break down big asks into smaller commitments. It increased job applicants by 20%. The fourth use loss aversion messaging. It can reduce customer cancellations by 90%. The fifth, give a reason even if it's an invalid one. It can help increase conversions by 41%. The sixth offer fewer than five choices. It boosted Unbounce's sales meetings by 16%. And finally, always offer more than one choice. That insurance company increased conversions by 2x with this tip. These seven tips are all backed by reliable behavioral science. Whenever I've referenced a paper or a study, I've cited it in today's show notes. So you can go and check them out there if you'd like to. But before you go, let me please tell you that 976 smart marketers like you have left a five star review for Nudge on Spotify or Apple. Could you leave Nudge a Review? If you do, you can send me an email to let me know. I'd be more than happy to send you a surprise to say thank you. But of course if you don't want to, you can always just share the show on LinkedIn instead. That helps as well. So can you leave Nudge a review? Because let's face it, all podcasts need podcast reviews. All right, that is all for this week folks. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to the wonderful Bas Wouters for coming back on the show he was on about a year ago now. I really enjoyed that episode he asked to come back on and I really couldn't wait to get him back on. He's a fantastic guest and if you'd like to learn more from bas and get many, many more tips about how to improve your website, you can sign up to his online Influence Academy. On this Academy, which is all hosted online, he has lessons teaching you how to boost motivation, design a winning prompt, create a fantastic website, increase the ability customers need to take action. All these wonderful things that can genuinely improve your conversions online. There is a community forum. There's a great weekly Q and A. I'm part of this community as well. I really enjoy learning from bas. So if you are interested in signing up, just click the link that I have left in the show notes to access that offer and sign up. Sign up but make sure to click that link in the show notes. All right, that's all from me this week. You might have heard that last week I hiked over 50 km to give a talk at a conference. It was a pretty bizarre day and ended up being a pretty bizarre talk at a conference. If you would like to hear why I did that and what that talk was about then please do go sign up to the Nudge newsletter. I'm going to write a newsletter this Friday explaining why I walked 52km to give a conference talk. So just go to nudgepodcast.com, click newsletter letter in the menu to sign up there. All right, that's all for this week. Massive thank you to BAS for coming on. I'll be back next Monday for another episode of Nudge. Cheers.