Nudge Podcast Summary

Episode: Why is it so hard to say no?
Host: Phil Agnew
Guest: Sunita Sa, Professor of Management & Organizations, Cornell University
Date: January 5, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of Nudge dives deep into the psychology behind our struggle to say "no"—even when we know we should. Phil Agnew is joined by Dr. Sunita Sa, a behavioral scientist and author of The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes. Together, they explore the infamous Milgram obedience experiments, Sunita’s own research and experiences, and the subtle social and psychological forces that make non-compliance so hard. The episode not only explains why we comply but also offers practical advice on how to develop the skill of gentle, effective defiance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Difficulty of Saying No: The Milgram Experiment

• [00:00–01:38]
  • Phil introduces the topic: saying "no" is hard, as shown famously by Stanley Milgram's research.
  • Sunita summarizes Milgram's findings: 65% of participants administered maximum shocks to strangers simply because they were instructed to.

    "Every single participant pulled the lever for 150 volts and for 300 volts when the participants started pounding on the door. And then there was deadly silence after that. And 65% still carried on up to the deadly 450 volts." —Sunita Sa [00:12]

2. First-hand Experience: Even Experts Struggle

• [01:38–03:41]
  • Sunita recounts her hospital story, where, despite her expertise in medical ethics and overdiagnosis, she felt unable to refuse an unnecessary CT scan.

    "...Even with the knowledge and understanding that I had, I found it very difficult to do. And I ended up just complying with what the doctor told me." —Sunita Sa [03:27]

3. Milgram Experiment in Detail and Its Modern Parallels

• [03:56–09:38]
  • Phil and Sunita re-explain Milgram’s setup and discuss the unexpected rates of compliance.
  • Audio clips from the Milgram study illustrate the emotional turmoil and uncertainty of real participants.
  • Moral discomfort but ongoing compliance is a universal human challenge.

    "They did not want to. Those audio clips make that pretty clear, but they didn’t feel able to defy the order." —Phil Agnew [09:23]

4. Why We Struggle to Defy: Three Psychological Factors

• [10:12–12:07]
  • Sunita identifies three reasons:
    1. Enormous social pressure to go along.
    2. Poor understanding of compliance, defiance, and consent.
    3. Lack of training or practice in saying no.

5. Insinuation Anxiety: An Overlooked Emotional Force

• [10:58–14:52]
  • Sunita’s research describes insinuation anxiety—the worry that defiance is offensive or signals distrust.
  • Disclosure of conflicts of interest (like doctors revealing financial incentives) paradoxically increases pressure to comply, not lessens it.

    "...patients say they want to know if that’s happening. But what I find is even though you have this decreased trust, you also have more insinuation anxiety. It's more uncomfortable now to decline the suggestion..." —Sunita Sa [13:36]

6. The Sales Pitch Effect in Transactional Settings

• [15:14–18:11]
  • In non-trusted settings (e.g., sales), the “sales pitch effect” drives us to comply out of a desire not to seem unhelpful.
  • Sunita shares a study: When a salesperson discloses a commission bonus, compliance with their recommendation skyrockets—even for worse deals.

    "What they're saying is they feel too uncomfortable now to turn it down because it would deprive the other person of their commission." —Sunita Sa [17:14]

7. A Thought Experiment: Social Pressure in Groups

• [20:02–23:22]
  • Sunita presents a group scenario modeled on the Challenger disaster: even when individuals know something is wrong, they yield to majority opinion, especially under stress and stakes.

    "Even if as an individual you think no. Once you get into a group and you have one spokesperson in that group, you see people concede and go ahead with it." —Sunita Sa [22:29]

8. We Overestimate Our Ability to Resist

• [23:22–25:08]
  • Most people believe they’d defy in high-pressure situations, but research shows otherwise.
  • Widzicka & Lafrance: In imagined scenarios, women say they’d object to inappropriate interview questions, but in real experiments, none actually do—fear dominates, not anger.

9. Defiance Is a Skill, Not a Trait

• [25:33–27:47]
  • Defiance can be learned, rehearsed, and made habitual.
  • Practice, visualization, scripting, and roleplay help "rewire" us to resist compliance reflexes.

    "Defiance isn't just for the brave or the extraordinary. It's actually available and necessary for all of us, we can do it in our own unique way." —Sunita Sa [26:33]

  • Preparation made Sunita able to say no in future medical situations. Phil tries it at the barber and succeeds.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Milgram’s experiment:

  "A large proportion of them showed signs of nervous behavior. So that could be laughing, you know, smiling, sweating, asking questions, swearing, all of these things." —Sunita Sa [09:38]

• On insinuation anxiety:

  "This is a distinct type of anxiety that arises when people worry that their non compliance with another person's wishes could be interpreted as a signal of distrust." —Sunita Sa [11:09]

• On disclosure backfiring:

  "Instead of disclosure being something like giving you information, I will receive more if you do X rather than Y. What people hear is, please do X because it helps me. And then they feel pressured to do it." —Sunita Sa [18:11]

• On building the skill of saying no:

  “We need to prepare long before the moment of crisis…visualizing it and practice and scripting and role playing, that's the thing that changes our neural pathways.” —Sunita Sa [26:53]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00] – Introduction & Milgram’s Experiment
• [01:38] – Sunita’s Personal Experience in Hospital
• [03:56] – Detailed Walkthrough of Milgram’s Study
• [10:12] – Three Reasons Why Saying No Is Hard
• [12:07] – Insinuation Anxiety Explored
• [15:14] – The Sales Pitch Effect in Sales Settings
• [20:02] – Thought Experiment: Social Pressure in Groups
• [23:22] – Prediction vs. Reality: Overestimating Our Defiance
• [25:33] – Turning Defiance Into a Trainable Skill

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is accessible but evidence-based, combining gripping real-life and classic behavioral studies with relatable anecdotes and actionable advice. Phil and Sunita highlight how compliance is deeply wired and subtly reinforced, but insist that gentle, effective defiance can—and should—be learned. The biggest lesson: If you want to be able to say “no” when it matters, you can’t just rely on willpower or good intentions in the moment—you need to anticipate, prepare, and practice.

Recommended reading:
The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes by Sunita Sa (AKA "Defy")

Next episode tease:
Marketing psychologist Richard Shotton returns to dissect the secrets behind KFC’s market success.