S3E143: Water Cooler Chats: The 30th IOCDF Conference Recap with Madison Di Silvio & Angela Henry

Summary

OCD Family Podcast Host: Nicole Morris, LMFT
Episode: S3E143: Water Cooler Chats: The 30th IOCDF Conference Recap with Madison Di Silvio & Angela Henry
Date: July 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This extended "Water Cooler Chat" episode offers a comprehensive, heartfelt recap of the 30th Annual International OCD Foundation (IOCDF) Conference in Chicago. Host Nicole Morris—a seasoned LMFT and mental health advocate—invites two vibrant fellow clinicians and friends, Madison Di Silvio and Angela (Angie) Henry, to dive into their firsthand experiences. The conversation weaves together professional insights, personal anecdotes, and key takeaways for families, clinicians, and people with lived OCD experience, highlighting conference sessions, personal growth, community moments, suggestions for improvement, and the power of authenticity in the OCD community.

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Meet the Guests

• Madison Di Silvio: Clinical Mental Health Counselor at Chicago Counseling Center, runs the advocacy account Obsessively Strong on Instagram/TikTok.
• Angela (Angie) Henry: Licensed Clinical Social Worker, owner of The Center for Collaborative Healing in Indiana—treats OCD, anxiety, tics, PANS/PANDAS.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. First Impressions & Conference Vibe

(05:38–09:11)

• Chicago Pride & Atmosphere:
  Madison expressed excitement about having the conference in her hometown but wished for more varied representations of Chicago cuisine beyond deep dish pizza.
  “There’s so many better foods in Chicago than deep dish.” —Madison (05:59)

• Community Reunion:
  Angie highlighted the joy of seeing relationships rekindled among clinicians and attendees after several years of conferences and the palpable excitement on the dance floor, especially among younger attendees.
  “It's just really neat to see that relationship happen... It's a precious time for me.” —Angie (08:00)

• Dance Floor Mishap:
  Angie humorously recounted breaking her foot—a “dancer’s fracture”—on the dance floor but still showing up for her presentations the next day, heels and all.
  “It’s called a dancer’s fracture. So what I’m hearing is you’re a good dancer.” —Madison & Angie (10:34)

• The Power of Being Authentic:
  The clinicians discussed how liberating it felt to dance and have fun together, stepping away from the outdated notion that therapists shouldn’t show their personal sides:
  “It was really nice... to be in a space where we're all just like, hey, you know what? We're human. We're clinicians.” —Madison (15:24)

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2. Highlights of Conference Content & Sessions

(15:48–28:46)

• Authenticity & Connection:
  Angie had a meaningful conversation with Uma Chatterjee about the hunger for authenticity in the field. “The authenticity we need to bring... is just so important.” —Angie (16:55)

• Virtual Access Improvements:
  Nicole praised the hybrid sessions and live Q&As now available on-demand—making key content more accessible.
  “I really like that they incorporated more...the virtual...Those people could ask in the Q&A.” —Nicole (18:55)

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3. Deep Dives: Notable Presentations

a. Madison’s Shame & Self-Compassion Group

(19:44–27:30)

• Group Overview:
  Madison co-led an in-demand workshop on shame, healthy vs. toxic shame, and self-compassion in OCD, with Sarah Weber.

• Key Takeaways:

  • Shame is a core emotion in OCD (not just anxiety), making treatment more complex.
  • Differentiation between healthy and toxic shame is crucial; the remedy is self-compassion—sometimes starting with neutrality, not forced positivity.
  • Overwhelming attendance validated the need for this group:
    “A lot of people [said], ‘this is my favorite thing that I've done today.’ There’s such a need for this. Please do it again next year.” —Madison (24:33)
  • Resources recommended: Dr. Kristin Neff’s self-compassion work, “Say It With Sarah”, and podcasts with Kyrie Russ and Mike Heady.

• Practical Note:
  “We’re not using [tools] with the emphasis...‘okay, this is gonna fix it.’... It's really a practice…Shame is hardwired, especially with OCD... Self-compassion makes emotion easier to carry.” —Madison (25:53)

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b. Angie’s (and Team's) ICBT Presentations

(28:46–36:27)

• First Talk:
  Focused on mechanisms of change in Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT), providing clinicians and sufferers a nuts-and-bolts understanding.

• Second Talk:
  Used vignettes to demonstrate ERP (Exposure & Response Prevention) vs. ICBT, highlighting differences without pitting one against the other: “We need to have as many varied modalities...as the different people that we serve.” —Angie (30:46) “It’s great to have these tools in our back pocket...” —Angie (31:37)

• Resource Recommendations:

  • Resolving OCD by Frederick Ardema (more accessible than the clinician’s handbook)
  • ICBT Online (videos and targeted subtopic coverage)
  • Angie’s August 15 training and future educational offerings

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c. Highlights from Other Conference Topics

• Growth in BFRB (Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors) & Tics Content
• More Robust PANS/PANDAS Coverage: Angie praised the lineup of top researchers but advocated for more clinician voices for real-world practice insights. “We also need clinicians at the table…” —Angie (37:57–39:25)

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4. Conference Gaps & Suggestions for the Future

(37:57–49:05)

• For Clinicians:

  • More specialized training—advanced and beginners—every year for ERP, ICBT, and other evidence-based practices.
  • More practitioner voices on panels, especially interdisciplinary topics like PANS/PANDAS.

• For Attendees:

  • Additional support groups and lived-experience spaces.
  • Pre-conference virtual socials to help newcomers connect.

  “Giving the opportunity to provide a space for people to...hang out pre-conference...might entice people to come even more.” —Madison (43:24)

• For the Organization:

  • Greater diversity—race, background, treatment modalities.
  • Truly international reach and engagement.

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5. Honest Discussion: Navigating ERP & ICBT Controversies

(49:05–69:59)

• Justice-Based Exposure:
  Clinicians stressed that good ERP is “client-centered and values-based”—not sensational, traumatic, or out of touch with real-life risk, using examples like the (in)famous “granola bar in the toilet” metaphor.

  “ERP again is a wonderful modality and it is important that we’re valuing our clients as we develop those exposures and should be doing it in a pro-client, justice-based way.” —Angie (55:21) “No clinician...is going into these things thinking like, okay, I'm gonna traumatize the client...It’s nuanced.” —Madison (64:56)

• ICBT Misconceptions:
  Similar concern exists for ICBT being misunderstood unless clinicians are well trained. Both modalities deserve thoughtful, ongoing dialogue and education.

• Application > Theory:
  The recurring theme: Real growth comes from skill practice and advanced application—not just theoretical understanding.

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6. Building Community: Walks & Advocacy

(71:02–75:45)

• Upcoming Walks:

  • Chicago OCD Walk: August 23, 12–4pm, Central Park in Skokie, IL (rain or shine, with indoor space this year).
  • Indiana First OCD Walk: October 4, 10am–2pm, Zionsville/Indianapolis—complete with booths, activities, sensory stations, face painting, raffles, and more.
  • Ann Arbor, MI OCD Walk: Also highlighted as a first in the region.

  “The OCD walk is for every walk of life. If you wanna learn more about ocd, great space. If you wanna make friends in the OCD community, great space...” —Madison (72:22)

• International Participation Encouraged:
  Nicole encouraged listeners worldwide to start and join walks or connect with other global OCD organizations, such as OCD-UK and OCD Australia.

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7. Final Thoughts & Hopeful Messages

(76:33–79:09)

• The Soul-Replenishing Power of Community: “It just is so reflective and, I'm gonna say, rejuvenating for the soul but not for the body...” —Madison (76:33) “Find your tribe, find your people, find the places where you need to learn and advance and get better. If you're a clinician, show up. Be all the colorful person that you are to the world.” —Angie (77:21)

  • For those not ready: “You're not alone. And when you're ready or when you're able, there's not pressure, it's not a failure, but there's an amazing community available.” —Nicole (77:40)

• Superheroes in the Kid Track:
  Nicole described the moving annual tradition of children with OCD designing superhero capes—reminding listeners why this work matters.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “It was really, really wonderful to be in a space where like I did not have to fear what I thought or my thoughts or what I said. It was just kind of a space where people got it.” —Madison (06:26)
• “No one should eat a granola bar out of a toilet...that's not what ERP is.” —Nicole (62:32)
• “We need to have as many varied modalities...as the different people that we serve.” —Angie (30:46)
• “Self-compassion makes emotion easier to carry versus like getting rid of it.” —Madison (25:53)
• “Let’s fix things, you know, in non compulsive ways.” —Nicole (69:59)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 05:38 — First reflections, Chicago setting, opening energy
• 09:11 — Dance floor mishap; clinicians as real people
• 15:48 — Value of authenticity; connecting with Uma Chatterjee
• 19:44 — Madison’s experience running the shame/self-compassion group
• 28:46 — Angie’s ICBT presentations, importance of varied modalities
• 37:57 — What’s missing? More BFRB, tics, PANS/PANDAS, lived experience groups
• 49:05 — Navigating ERP controversy, justice-based care, inclusive improvement
• 69:59 — More effective training, application, and community events
• 71:02 — Walks in Chicago, Indiana, Ann Arbor—building broader community
• 76:33 — Closing reflections: hope, tribe, and the essential power of coming together

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Resources Mentioned

• Obsessively Strong (Madison’s advocacy)
• Say It With Sarah (Sarah Weber’s account)
• Dr. Kristin Neff (self-compassion resources)
• “Practical Psych with Kyrie Russ” podcast (shame episode with Mike Heady)
• Resolving OCD by Frederick Ardema
• ICBT Online
• IOCDF Walk info (iocdf.org)
• UK and Australia OCD organizations (linked at ocdfamilypodcast.com)
• Training: August 15 ICBT workshop (contact Angie/see blog)

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Takeaway

In this warm, energetic, and deeply informed episode, Nicole, Madison, and Angie illustrate the power of lived experience, authenticity, client-centered care, and building an inclusive OCD community. Whether you’re a family member, clinician, or person with OCD, the conference offered hope, practical learning, and a reminder: You’re never alone. There’s room at the table for every journey.

Transcript

[A]

Want a recipe for success? Step 1 Visit ocdfamilypodcast.com courses Step 2 Click on my link to browse OCD Training School's amazing course catalog. Step three Enroll. And step four Enjoy learning with no added cost to you. You can support the OCD family community while grabbing some continuing education or learning how to bridge yourself to self help strategies for OCD. Again, that's ocdfamilypodcast.com courses and use my special link to sign up today. Hi fam. This past weekend was the 30th International OCD Foundation Conference in Chicago and I was in attendance with so many wonderful and courageous warriors, families, practitioners, researchers and guests past and present. It was a wonderful time, but I am tired. How tired is she? I'm telling you. At the end of the conference I thanked my coffee for attending the last breakout session with me, Badum Bump. So I'm gonna roll the intro so that I can get right to the convo because there was so much great learning and so many really interesting takeaways and I can't wait for you to hear more. I'm Nicole Morris, licensed marriage and family therapist and mental health correspondent. And let me be the first to say welcome to the family. The OCD family that is. I am here to create a community of support for family members, spouses, partners, parents, adult children as there may be adult and chosen family of OCD sufferers and their community. I've had over 22 years of experience in the mental health field, but please note that this information does not qualify or substitute as a diagnostic evaluation, therapy or treatment and it is presented on an as is basis. Please follow up with a qualified mental health provider in your area regarding concerns for yourself or loved ones. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's get started. Started. Okay. Okay. So if you're newer fam and you're just used to our quicker little water cooler chats here over the summertime, this is the one water cooler chat where we get a little more in depth because we are talking the recap from this year's 30th annual IOCDF conference. And sometimes I attend with my family so I've interviewed my husband before. Sometimes I'm going alone. But this year I have two different guests and friends that also practice and have some so much warmth and experience in the area of treating OCD and OC related disorders. And both of my guests presented in different ways. Angie gave a couple different talks. My guest Madison helped to run a support group and so I'm so excited to have them here to reflect on some of their takeaways from the conference this year as well. So let me tell you, I'm going to dish a little bit about them so that we can jump right into the talk. And then I do want to point out and remind everyone that you can jump over to this episode's blog over@ OCD family podcast.com and I'm going to try and link all the goodies that we mentioned during this episode. So if you want to check out what's that all about, jump on over this episode's blog and I will hook you up with all the resources that I can. All right, so first of all, Madison DeSilvio is a clinical mental health counselor and she works for the Chicago Counseling center in, you guessed it, Chicagoland here in the US of A. Madison also does online advocacy and has raised a lot of awareness, hope and has helped to disseminate resources through her social media account. Obsessively strong on Instagram and TikTok. And my other guest is Angela Henry. She is my fellow Hoosier. She is my sister of another Mr. Here in the state of Indiana where we practice. Angela Henry is a licensed clinical social worker and owner of the center for Collaborative Healing where she helps in treating individuals, children and families. When it comes to ocd, anxiety related disorders, ticks, pans and pandas, I mean the woman is a wealth of knowledge and heart. So I'm so excited to have them both with me to chitty chat about all the wonderful, funny, curious and thought provoking takeaways that we had from this year's conference. Well, welcome back to the OCD Family podcast and I'm thrilled to be here with my friends Madison and Angie. I call her Angie, she goes by Angela. But Angie Henry and Madison disobey because I got to hang out with these great ladies at the conference and we are doing your 30th IOCDF that's International OCD Foundation Conference recap. So we were at the conference this past weekend. Welcome back to the show, ladies. So glad to have you.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello.

[C]

We're glad to be here. And I'm so glad you call me Angie.

[B]

Jose, should we do Angie, Nikki and Maddie.

[A]

I called you Maddie to a couple people and then I was like shit, she does not go by that. But then you know you were with me when I was nickified. But anywho, it was so wonderful to see you both and we are gonna be talking about some of the experiences we had. Also, Angie gave a coup presentations that included ICBT Madison ran a group on shame that was amazing. And so I would love for them to tell you about that. But first of all, what did you guys think of this year's conference? What are some initial impressions that stand out to you guys?

[B]

I think for me, off the bat, because it was in my hometown, I was very, very excited. If people don't know I am Chicago native, I will say I do kind.

[C]

Of wish that we talked a little.

[B]

Bit more about different foods besides deep dish. And that's not just for the icbt, but in general, like everyone was like.

[C]

We gotta get deep dish, we gotta do deep dish.

[B]

I'm like, there's so many better foods in Chicago than deep dish. So that I will say was one thing that I was like, okay, that's I wish could be approved upon for future conferences in Chicago. But besides that, I think it was wonderful. I love it because last year was my first IOCDF conference. It was the first time I got to meet a lot of these lovely people that I got to meet online during the beginning parts of my recovery. And then this year to kind of come back and people being like, well.

[C]

Excited to see you.

[B]

I apologize for people's ears for that. It was really, really wonderful to be in a space where like I did not have to fear what I thought or my thoughts or what I said. It was just kind of a space where people got it and really enjoyed seeing some of the first time attendees. My practice was there, which was lovely. We got a chance to kind of be more in the community. My coworkers got a chance to see what the conference was like and it was just really, really validating and exciting to be there.

[A]

I love that. I love that. Yes. And if any of the fam listening are like, yeah, these three feel familiar together. Speaking of Chicago specifically, we were last all together at the OCD walk in Chicago. So that's really exciting. And Angie, I know we were commenting, you and I, because we've been to Chicago many a times as non natives. The weather could not have been better.

[C]

Oh, it was so great. I mean, it was a little windy, but it's the Windy City, right? But the humidity was low and it was sunny. It was just perfect. So it was really nice to be outside. The conference was a little cold, but it was beautiful, beautiful weather.

[A]

Yeah. I mean when it's hot and it's humid outside, they crank up the ac. But you have to have layers and then if you go outside in the layers, usually you're dying. But it was so nice in Chicago. That I wouldn't even really notice when I was going outside in layers. It was pretty cold at the conference. In terms of the overall vibe for ocdcon. Anything stand out for you? Just kind of initial impressions, Ange.

[C]

For me, I. I loved, like Madison was saying, seeing people see each other again, like the community, the OCD community as they're able to come back together. Every IOCDF and colleagues see colleagues, and different people from different areas of the world or country get to see each other again. It's just really neat to see that relationship happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And even Saturday night, right before my little challenge, there was this cute little gal at my T7 or 8 or so, and she was listening to the speakers, and she was standing there. She was also doing back bends, walking across the floor. But she. Her eyes were just so bright as she got ready for the dance floor to open.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And as soon as it opened, she beelined her way over there, and it was just like. Not like Christmas morning exactly, but just like the excitement in her eyes. Just to see all that happen was really fun for me, but also just to see for myself. It's a time for me to present and learn, of course, but it's so fun for me to get to see people and colleagues too. So that's always just a precious time for me.

[A]

Yeah, that is fun. Now, you kind of hinted at your incident. I don't know if you want to go into that or not. You don't have to if you want to, though. I think the fam is like, I'm not opposed to hearing about an incident, so it's up to you.

[C]

So what happened is one of my co presenters, which I present with a lot, is an awesome dancer, and I'm gonna call her out. So Amanda Petrick Gardner, she is an awesome dancer, and she is so fun to be with. And I am not an awesome dancer. And so you have two people, you know, you have the awesome dancers who are just, like, totally doing it, or you have to totally make a lunatic of yourself to let everyone know you know that you're not a dancer. So I'm on the end of that group. And so she just loves to go out dancing. So I went out there. First song, Jeremy Schumann was out there. We were getting ready to do our thing. They were already dancing. I was getting ready to do something silly, and I immediately felt my toe crack. And then it started to swell and bruise. And my husband's a pt, and so I knew something was wrong, and so I didn't want to ruin the Fun. So I just kind of tried to disappear a little bit, but drove straight in from the conference into urgent care to get the X rays. And it was a. Get this. It's called a dancer's fracture.

[B]

So what I'm hearing is you're a good dancer.

[C]

So anyway, so that's fun.

[A]

That's fun, Angie. Is that the thing? You're like, I broke my foot. It was fun. No, but it is fun. The name is a dancer's fracture. I felt terrible for you, though. I was like. And I knew that you wouldn't want any of the tension because you are just such a sweet, kind person. That is other focused. And so that totally sucks, you guys. Not only did she break her foot. Let me explain. She came the next day, presented in heels. Cute heels. Yes. And I offered her kitty or vanity?

[C]

Probably a little bit of both.

[A]

She was adorable. And I offered her naproxen sodium, like, off. Miranda leave. And she was like, no. You know, today I'm not really feeling it. But drove straight to the urgent care. Of course, she had a broken foot. So I. I applaud you, Angie.

[C]

You.

[A]

You got through it like a champ. I walked in, like, right after that. Cause you guys had just come out, and you were kind of with your foot up, elevated. And I was like, uh, oh, situation. But I came in and we danced too well.

[C]

Cause Madison was right there when I did it.

[A]

And I.

[C]

That's right. I forgot. I'm like, I think I have to. I think I did something. I'm gonna have to go sit down.

[B]

Okay. I'm not gonna lie. I at first thought that she was, like, just trying to get out of dancing because we kind of had to drag her on there at the first part anyway. But then you were like, I'm like, no, come on. Like, you're fine. And then now I feel like an asshole. But it's okay, because. No, no, no. Getting, like, the care that you needed. But I felt so bad. And then Amanda. I don't think she underheard me at first. And then she's like, oh, she actually.

[A]

Did something to her.

[B]

I'm like, yeah, I didn't think so either.

[A]

You're like, I gotta get out. And then it's broken. Yeah, but if my foot was broken, I would have been like. So you handled it, like, very, very demurely. I'm. I'm very.

[B]

You are.

[C]

What's the other word we need to put in there?

[B]

Mindful. Mindful.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You were.

[B]

You were the Gen Z of the group. Will let you know There you go.

[A]

Yeah, we went out, we danced. It was so cute. What song was it that all the little kids were up on the stage? Want to dance with somebody? Maybe.

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. It was so, so sweet. Yeah. So if people listening, if you're like, where was all this dancing going down? It was going down at the International OCD Conference. They have a reception where they give out awards. They provide dinner and community building time. And then they put on some music and people dance. And these little kids that I imagine some of them could have been siblings, but a lot of warriors getting up there just freely, like, just having joy and dancing was so, so sweet. And then we did. What is. What is the dance we did that was choreographed that I didn't.

[B]

Gotcha slide.

[A]

Gotcha slide. Okay, so I didn't know the gacha slide at all. Cha cha or Cha cha cha Cha slide. See, I don't even know. I said, gotcha slide. And I was watching. When we turned a certain direction, I was trying to watch people, like, next to me's feet. They quickly caught on that I was watching them, and they were like, she's watching me. And I was like, oh, I'm not trying to creep you out. I don't know what I'm doing. They were like, well, we don't know what we're doing. So they're feeling self conscious because I'm looking at them.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

But I also was out there with Madison and with Ashton. Ashton and Pizza. And I was following his lead because he had this moves down. I was like, ashton, you're my savior here. So it was a lot of fun. But I got in there and Madison was like, everybody just left. I think Angie's hurt. I guess we're not gonna dance.

[B]

Ready? Too hard.

[A]

I looked like a librarian. And I was like, librarian's gone wild. Let's get out there. Let's do it. I am ready.

[B]

I will say, from the dancing from last year and this year, it is, like, kind of a shift in perspective for a clinician with lived experience. Cause there's both the aspect of me wanting to be part of the community and then also coming freshly from a space where we're still kind of taught to be blank slates a lot. And, like, the idea of, like, dancing and moving and people seeing that and thinking that it could be unprofessional. It was really nice and, like, kind of liberating to be in a space where we're all just like, hey, you know what? We're human. We're clinicians. And I'm saying that just as a personal reflection. And any other therapists out there that are listening and kind of like, well, I can't be a person in public. It's like, no, you definitely can. And most people are stepping away from that space of like, you can't be. You have to be a blank slate or bank a blank. Can't speak blank slate. And, like, not share your feelings, your emotions, be a person. And honestly, I found that with most people, it's made me a better therapist. Yeah. So I really let go of that this year, which was really, really nice that the thoughts still came up. But, hey, we're there to have fun, we're there to engage. We're there to celebrate not only people with lived experience, but the clinicians doing the work.

[A]

So, absolutely. I feel like most of the people out there were clinicians too. Like, like, I'm sure some of the clients might have been out there, some of the family members, but most of it was like, clinicians were like, we're ready to let loose.

[C]

You were asking, you know, like, some of the highlights and things. And one of my highlights was actually a little bit what Madison was saying. I had a chance to meet with Uma Chatterjee and haven't ever spoken with her before, and she's just a lovely gal. And what we ended up talking about, one of the pieces was just the authenticity that we need to bring to the table that I think our clients and the world is just really needing and to be able to own and bring what you have to that cooperative table. It's just so important. And so we were able to have a conversation about how important that was and never spoken with her. I hopefully I will again someday, you know, but she was just lovely and just glad that there's more people like you gals and her that are noticing that need for authenticity. That's what people want.

[A]

Well, and she is remarkable. So, fam, if you've never heard of Uma, I have actually two episodes we did at the end of the season before I started the water cooler chats. And she is a soon to be doctor in neuroscience and she also has her own podcast. I think it's a chat with Uma, but she has one of the most incredible stories of lived experience and just the power of not only hope and recovery, but how she has built it into her platform and now is pursuing this doctorate degree to make a change for other UMAs and you and me and listeners out there. And so it's incredible and that's something that strikes me with a lot of our colleagues in the field. I feel like they just show up authentically. And that's part of the draw to something like attending the conference, because being able to connect genuinely with people makes it worth continuing. And one of the things I was saying, maybe to you guys, but probably to many people, was just the chance to interact with so many incredible warriors and family members. And seeing the growth that they've made or also hearing the hope that's inspired by some of the talks or groups that they've attended has been incredible. And so that, too, stands out to me as just like, wow, I love to hear the questions. This year. I really like that they incorporated more the virtual. Like, if you were attending the conference virtually and you were in a hybrid session where there were in person and a virtual session going on, those people could ask in the Q and A, all of that was available. And it sounds like we'll be available on their. On demand, which usually they don't have the Q and A in there. And so I think that's a huge plus. So those things struck me as well.

[B]

I'm actually excited for that piece because there was so much in Orlando jumping back and forth between sessions of, okay, well, I wanna see a part of this. Wanna see a part of this. In this year, even when I would sit at the table for, like, working our booth for my practice, I got to watch what was going on still. Like, I could pull up the app and watch the live recording. And I get to go back and see some of the sessions that I didn't get a chance to view because literally everything. There's so many good topics and it's so hard to choose. Right.

[A]

They run at the same time. Exactly. Yeah. So you were mentioning your practice. Remind us, Madison, or for any new fam, Listening, the name of your practice in the Chicago area. And then, please, if you would. I would love to hear from both of you about how you presented this year. And so, first off, you're in Chicago. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I am. So I became an intern at Chicago Counseling center about two years ago at this point, and it's just a wonderful practice. It was opened by Taylor Newenthorpe, and he is the author of the Perfectionism Workbook. I've learned a lot of good perfectionism things on it. But the reason he opened those doors is because he really saw a need for more O, C, D therapy that's covered by insurance. So we do accept all major insurances. It's called Chicago Counseling Center. And I can attest to that, being Chicago native myself. For me personally, every single person on Psychology Today that was in network for me was like, ocd, ocd, ocd. Called the insurance company. They're like, well, you need somebody that treats ocd. There's so many that treat ocd. And they sent me a long list and I'm like, none of them use erp. Like, well, you need to prove that. So you have to call every single provider and they're like, what is erp? What is erp? What is icbt?

[C]

What is the.

[B]

It was just a hassle to really find, so I was really grateful. So any clinician that works at our practice has to specialize in ocd. And then we all each have some of our own little things that we like to treat. A couple of my coworkers love to treat eating disorders. I really enjoy BFRB work. We have a addictions counselor. We have a couples therapist. So everyone's ocd, but everyone has also other little niches that potentially could help with OCD things.

[A]

I love that. And if you're listening and you're like, what is ERP or ICBT if you're new. New, new to our family gatherings here. ERP is exposure and response prevention. ICBT is inference based cognitive behavioral therapy. And they are evidence based practices for treating ocd. But I love that. And so not only were you there representing and Taylor also has been on the POD before, so some of the FAM might recognize that name. But also you were presenting this year. You did a group and I would love for you to share more about the group and that experience.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So Sarah Weber had actually reached out to me with the idea, so I'm not going to take full credit, but we did collaborate on figuring out what this was going to look like.

[A]

I'm going to pause you for a second. Sarah Weber. Remind me of her handle. She's on social as well.

[B]

Say it with Sarah.

[A]

Say it with Sarah.

[B]

And she's a therapist out of organ, I believe.

[C]

Pacific Northwest for sure.

[B]

Okay, cool. And she is also another great therapist that treats ocd, uses ERP and icbt. Huge on self compassion, which personally was huge in my recovery. So the idea of doing something about self compassion and shame, I was like, heck yeah, let's do it. So basically the whole group, we saw just kind of a space where there wasn't a lot of discussion about shame. Like, yes, it's here and there, but there wasn't like a deep discussion at most of the conferences around shame. And I think One of the things that maybe the FAM doesn't know is that one of the reasons too, that OCD is not necessarily considered an anxiety disorder is because of the emotions behind it aren't always just anxiety that keeps people stuck. It could be disgust, it could be shame, it could be guilt, frustration, or a mix of all of them, which, as most people with OCD know, is probably the case. So with shame in general, though, there's such an issue with if there's shame on top of the anxiety and the compulsions, it's so much harder to treat. So we wanna make sure that there was a space to kind of talk about that and discuss it. And I remember personally hearing a podcast from my Kitty, another wonderful OCD therapist, that treats using ERP and ICBT about shame and the difference between healthy and toxic shame. And I'm like, why is no one talking about this? Why is no one sharing this information? So my big part of the group was about that discussion and what those kind of different components look like and how shame in general is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way that it's being used. And figuring out, is this healthy shame, toxic shame. How do we work on toxic shame? And spoiler alert for everyone, it's self compassion. So Sarah then went into a whole wonderful spiel about the three components of self compassion. We did a self compassion practice and then we did a lovely activity where basically we are activating a different part of the brain when it comes to automatic negative, shameful thoughts. And then giving yourself time and space, receiving new self compassion responses. And as a reminder for the fam too, self compassion doesn't have to be. Everything's great, it's wonderful, like, don't worry about it. A lot of self compassion work actually helps in the regards to neutrality, self compassion. So things like this is hard, I'm trying best, this will pass. Stuff like that is super, super important. And honestly, the group went super well. We ended up not having enough space in the room, which, that part's not great. But that tells us that it was definitely needed at the conference. So it was wonderful discussion and a lot of people pat myself on the.

[A]

Back a little bit.

[B]

A lot of people, like, this is my favorite thing that I've done today. Like, there's such a need for this. Why are people not talking about this more? Please do this again next year. And we're like, we would love to, so we'll probably try and do it again next year. I'm really, really happy with how it turned out and I'm reflecting for myself. Like, man, I wish I had had something like this when really suffering. So.

[A]

Absolutely. And you and I were talking. You listened to Practical Psych with Kyrie Russ and she interviewed Mike. I've had Mike on talking about shame too, but I really like the way Kyrie did her interview and I feel like they nailed that conversation. So I'm going to link that over on this episode's blog and I'm also going to link socials for of course, Madison at Obsessively Strong does so much online advocacy and so I'm going to have her and Sarah's handles if you want to follow them. I encourage you to. I will link Kyrie's podcast with Mike and any other resources that you would Recommend. I know Dr. Kristin Neff does a ton of work on self compassion and she's amazing. And so if anyone has ever heard of her, she has workbooks and all sorts of things to really help guide self compassion, which is so important. But would you have any other resources you'd want me to link over there or that you would recommend people to check out?

[B]

Not necessarily more resources, but to confirm what you probably already had mentioned, that's where Sarah got her self compassion stuff and then her own spin on it. Similar to myself. But one thing I guess not necessarily resource, but an idea that I believe most of the fam probably can relate to and popped up a lot in our group is okay, if I did the activity or I did the self compassion practice, I still feel guilty, I still feel sad, I still feel shame. One thing I always try to remind myself specifically is like, okay, I'm not doing this tool, whatever the tool, whether it be self compassion work, icbt, erp, whatever it be, like, we're not using a tool with the emphasis of okay, this is gonna fix it. Because if we do, we're kind of like compulsing, watching. Yeah, compulsing, number one. That's absolutely true. But the idea of being kind of like we're waiting for water to boil, like, okay, if I just sit here, it'll eventually happen, right? But it's more along the lines of, hey, you know what? I'm doing this practice because I deserve to be doing something other than compulsive. I emphasize, and this might sound a little bit weird, but I teach a tool and then I'm like, it's not going to work. It's not going to work today. But that's not the important part of why we're using it. It's really a practice. And self compassion specifically as a practice, shame is hardwired, especially with OCD and over responsibility issues. Hyper responsibility stuff. It's always hardwired and that didn't happen overnight, nor is it going to be undone overnight. So using this practice with the guise of, hey, I'm doing this because I deserve to not be compulsing or being mean to myself. Self compassion makes emotion easier to carry versus like getting rid of it, essentially. So it's not necessarily resource, but a tip or a thing that came up often that I think everyone should really here.

[A]

I like that it's. It's the journey, not necessarily the destination. An analogy that popped up when you were saying that for me was like, it reminds me of an or. Just because you use an OR doesn't mean you've already made it to where you're going. Sometimes you might still feel lost or still have some challenges getting the direction you want to takes a lot of effort. But it's a tool and it's a really important tool that I think OCD or not, a lot of us often are much better at giving compassion to others than to ourselves. So that's a really great point. And I will say I was thinking too, I said compulsing, but it has the function as compulsing. Right. There are times where we fix things. It's not compulsive, but yes, yes, we were.

[B]

And again, the tool will eventually work.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's not saying it'll never work eventually.

[A]

But it's a means to an end. I like that. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. And Angie, you presented a couple different times over the conference, and so we'd love to hear an overview because I know some of the content was able to carry over. One of the presentations was how to apply it in a case form. But I would love to hear more about your presentation if you could share with the fam.

[C]

Sure. So we were able to give two presentations. The first one was about ICBT and really the mechanisms of change that go along with that. And pretty often our presentations contain those things because it's. It's really the fundamentals of icbt. And so we try to package it up and make it different each year, but get the information out to the clinicians and OCD sufferers to let them know about the modality and understand a little bit more about how it works and what are the specific components of it. So the first one was really about those mechanisms of change, and then the second one was looking at ICBT and ERP within two different kind of vignettes. And of course it's not to pose or put one against the other. It's really just to show people these different modalities and how they work with the same story, but how they look and work differently. Just to give clinicians especially an understanding of, oh, this is what it looks like when you're using erp. This is what it looks like when you're using icbt. To just give people a good understanding of what it looks like feels like the spirit of it.

[A]

It kind of reminds me of like, maybe it shows I'm hungry family, I don't know. But I was thinking of like salmon and I was like, you can bake salmon, you can grill salmon, and you can do even other things with salmon. Right. But you know, what are the methodologies and how do you create the flavor and get the best outcomes with these different methods? And so I love having choices to be able to create great outcomes. And so I so appreciated being able to hear how that applied in both ways. That was, I thought that was phenomenal.

[C]

One of the things that I hope that I say every time that I present on ICBT is that we need to have as many varied modalities that are evidence based as the different people that we serve. It's such a wonderful thing for clinicians to have a basket of tools and obviously they're going to have the client choose what is best for them in terms of their treatment. But it's great to have these tools in our back pocket so that if something comes up, we can use erp. If something else is different, we can use act, we can use icbt, we can use mct. We have so many different tools in our toolbox to bring out at the right time to get our clients across the base, across the finish line where they want and need to be and deserve to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

An ACT is acceptance and commitment therapy and MCT is metacognitive therapy. And I just, I'm excited to see as time goes on, not only the current modalities that we have continue to strengthen, but even more, even more evidence based treatments continue to be vetted and researched because we don't have a cure for ocd. And so as long as there is not a cure, and even when there is a cure, certain treatments are not going to work for certain people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I, and I would add in one more, which I think we would all agree with, is also medication support is absolutely one that sometimes people are going to only seek that But I think can be best in combination use with therapy. And so that is such a great point. And I thought Angie did such a great job in particular. The first session you guys did was more of just an overview on inference based cbt. The second one was like, let's practice. And I love that because the FAM knows we always practice some application. I always do my intrusive thought segment, and I'm very big on application. It helps create that cognitive feedback loop. Yeah.

[C]

And that's what a lot of people were asking for, is, okay, so now, like, you've told us the fundamentals. How do we apply it? So Amanda put all that together and really had some good wisdom in bringing that to the table.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And you and Katherine Goldhouse and Amanda, I feel like, is it the third year now that you guys have presented on that topic with different. Sometimes with some additional members at different conferences. But this year I was like, you guys are just the powerhouse when it comes to.

[C]

The first one was in St. Francis. So three years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was us three and Mike Hetty last year.

[B]

Catherine.

[C]

I don't think Margaret. I think Margaret did it. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I have to say they did a great job because talking about the inferential confusion part, I refer to it as a cognitive tongue twister. But I would think that that would probably be the hardest part to present on. I love the parts that I always get to present on because they're empathetic and feely and all the good stuff. But that stuff is hard. I guess. I had to do the research piece, and I'm not a researcher. That's a little dry for me. We need to hear the research because we need to hear the evidence behind things. But that's a little harder one for me too.

[A]

I think you did a great job with it. I grabbed sushi with you and Amanda after that and was giving you some feedback. But I wonder. Madison and I were both in the audience for that session. And I wonder for you, Madison, if it felt this way for me. I was like, this is the most clear. And I feel like I. I get it because I've spent some serious time and you have to spend some serious time and effort to really learn the fidelity of the model. But I thought, you know, I think it's not just because I've known it for so long. I think it was explained really clearly. And I noticed, too, because we've talked a little bit about resolving OCD. There's a part one and part two book that Dr. Frederick Ardemic came out with and really I think kind of the flow kind of matched a little more what he has put out in resolving ocd, which I think probably for clinicians and clients alike, it's a little bit easier to digest than the Clinician's handbook. Doesn't mean don't read the Clinician's handbook, but those are really good resources. So I'm going to link those over on the blog as well. But would you have any other recommendations or things that you think would be helpful if people are interested in learning more?

[C]

Yeah, actually, and I talked to some people afterwards about this that the ICVT online.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Website has a lot of videos that the community has come together in a grassroots way and collected and created over time. Not just about the theory and, and the mechanisms of change, but it goes into like how do we use ICBT with pedophilia? How do we use it with things that are invisible? How do we use it, you know, for X, Y and Z? All sorts of different in depth specific pieces of ICBT to look at just different challenges directly. So I think that can be really helpful for people that are wanting more in depth specific things regarding how do I use ICBT for fill in the blank.

[A]

Such a great point. And you know, also Angie teaches trainings and so does Kate, I believe. Amanda used to, but now she's getting her doctorate so she's a little busy. But if you have any upcoming trainings and want to shoot me a graphic, Angie, I'd love to put that on.

[C]

The blog August 15th.

[A]

Oh great, thanks. Okay, I'll put that on. And maybe if you have a series coming up in case people hear this after the 15th, she is on fire and I have no doubt she will continue to give training. So yeah, I will. I'll definitely do that. So as we kind of think about all the good that we got to digest and it was a lot that we were able to take in, I really enjoyed the TIC workshop too that I went to with you, Angie. And Angie s a powerhouse. Question. All right, fam, if you're getting value out of our conversation, but you haven't hit subscribe or followed OCD Family Podcast. Wherever you enjoy your podcasts and YouTube, please take a moment, no time like the present to hit that button. It's free, it's easy, and it ensures that not only will you never miss an episode, but that more folks can find the OCD Family community. Because, fam, we know we're better together. Now back to today's chat. I I wonder Was there anything in your experience that you were like, oh, you know what, I just kind of wish this was here too, or anything additional that you would like to see.

[C]

I have to say I was super, super excited. Last year they had one or two maybe Pans Pandas Neuro Inflammatory Disease Challenge presentations. This year they brought the Bomb Diggities with Frankovich and Breland and Dr. Susan Swedo to talk about Pan's Pandas and autoimmune encephalitis kind of challenges. And I was super happy to see that they gave great information. I would love to see clinicians being able to be on those panels as well. So they can what's happening in the therapeutic environment. Researchers have their own take on things, which is awesome. We need that. We also need clinicians at the table to talk about what's happening. I think that, you know, we have some interventions that are noted as being evidence based and we know that they work. However, when these kids are in flares, the clinicians are noticing that some of those aren't as effective as maybe what the evidence base is saying. So just to be able to really piece that out and talk through it in a collaborative way so that we really have good standards and guidelines to help these kiddos.

[A]

Yeah. And for Panspandas and we've had. And actually Angie's been on the POD a couple times with a panel of great people between parent and nonprofit organizational leader and herself and Brittany Goth has been on the show too, who had also talked about that and Lyme disease as well and other tick borne illnesses. And it's a neuropsychiatric disorder, but it appears and it seems like very, very sudden OCD presentation. So if you've never heard of that and you're like, what is she talking about and why is it at an O C D conference?

[B]

Right.

[C]

And we have lots of stuff on tics. I was happy to see the pre conference on BFRBs on tics. Yeah, those screenings. But if you treat OCD and you treat tics, you're gonna have seen or have seen and didn't know it. Pans, Pandas.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's often not even known. So clinicians aren't even knowing to look at it for it, what it, what the symptoms look like.

[B]

So Angie, you know, I'd love a training from you on that topic too, along with cbt. So I think that's like you're so knowledgeable about that and it's just not like you said, talked about enough. There aren't enough clinicians that have the fundamental background to be able to even.

[C]

Teach an adult have it too. You know, it's known as a pediatric in the descriptor even. But adults have it too. And so it just, I think it's a quiet unknown thing.

[B]

Yeah, another little.

[C]

I don't know if you would want it, but I created a little, just short little canva for the community. Maybe I'll give it to you. You can link it in there if you want it.

[A]

I would love it. You don't mind if I share it publicly?

[C]

It's for the community.

[A]

Oh, yay. So if you're like, that's kind of interesting. I want to hear more about that. Or if you're a clinician and you're like, yeah, no, that's the thing that I haven't known much, but oh my gosh, maybe I've missed that. Check it out. It'll be over on this episode's blog, over on ocdfamilypodcast.com so that's a great point. That would be great to see more of that intersection and not just reporting, but some real dialogue and constructive opportunity to hear feedback. That would be really. That would be awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. All right. And Madison, anything for you that you were like, I wish if I could have one more or a couple more things here. Anything that you felt like would be helpful, kind of fill any void or gaps.

[B]

Totally. I already mentioned in the beginning food if we're coming back to Chicago. Oh yeah, all for another native. Like, we'll help you out IOCDF on food and things. But besides that, I think one of the things I heard a lot at my group too is like the wish for more support groups or activities. Like, yes, there were a lot, but I don't necessarily know if there were enough. Like all every session had talks, which is super important for clinicians. But as we're advertising this as a lived experience thing too, most of the people that I've talked to got a lot of benefit out of those lived experience spaces. Especially since OCD is such an isolating disorder. And like, even though we know we can see on Reddit, we can see on IOCDF website, we can see on all these blogs, we can see on all the advocates accounts, like, this is real. It's so incredibly different and impactful to have someone else sitting. Not that I want people to be in tears, but sitting across from you in tears based on the same exact thoughts that you've had. So I would love to see, you know, maybe support groups or activities every session, whether it just be like at least one or two. It doesn't have to be five. But like I think that would greatly benefit the community. I think number two, I would love a pre conference, like potentially this idea off the cup. So I apologize if it's not great.

[A]

Apologize, don't apologize.

[B]

You're right, you're right, you're right. So like a pre conference, like zoom or get together for especially for lived experienced people. Because some people go alone, right? And it's super intimidating for anyone to go alone. Number one, without ocd and then take OCD into account. Oh my God, they looked at me weird. What if they don't like me? What if I say something stupid? What if I said something racist? What if I said something about pedophilia? What if I said my intrusive thoughts? I'm like, can they read my intrusive thought? Like so many things. And I know I'm like going a million miles a minute because how my brain works sometimes. So I think giving the opportunity to provide a space for people to like chill and meet each other a little bit and hang out pre conference and like kind of know who to look for so they don't have to sit alone at things or there's not that uncomfortable, like hi, I'm X, Y and Z. Which again, we all should be doing that anyway. But I think giving a space to help with those pre conference tutors might entice people to come even more or entice people to actually just go up and talk to each other. And then the third thing, which I'm sure we all can agree is I would love to see more on icbt. I think it's such a wonderful treatment. I use both erp. I use both icbt. Both are wonderful, incredible treatments. Yes, they do have very different mechanisms change. So therefore it does get compared a lot. But not comparison in the, in the respect of disregarding each other, but comparison in the respect of hey, we need to know the difference. And unfortunately to know the difference we gotta explain kind of what those differences are. So I think that's one of the things I would love to see a little bit more of. Because yeah, we have one or two or three, which is great progress. But even with like the little flags I had an ERP went on, I'm like, hell yeah, this is awesome. I think it was like ERP is my brain gym and like so true. And I had that on mine because that's how I thought of erp. It really like was just building that muscle. But I would Love to have had a. Like, I trust, I have full trust in my senses or about ICVT or.

[C]

Like something like pre conference training.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. But I think that would be super beneficial too because third thing with that, if we have stuff, stuff like that lived, experienced people that do ICBT can maybe be like, oh hey, let's like chat about it. Because there aren't any support groups about icbt. So I think that would be another thing to add on from my first comment of like, like let's have an I, C, B T based support group. I think there's not enough clinicians out there that know about icbt. There's not enough clinicians out there that know about ERP too. Let's be honest, there's still need for that as well or ACT or mct, all that stuff. Right. But I think again, the more we can get that information out there, the more that people can understand because ultimately like they might be only listening to Angie, Amanda and Kate's talk once a year. Right. And that's not really enough information. An hour and a half conversation is not enough to digest such a cognitive tongue twister like Angie said. And so it's really, I think those application talks, the support groups, the mechanisms of change thing, a lived experience panel in ICBT would be so nice. So I know I'm preaching to the choir for, for everyone, but I think that would be just amazing because it's helped so many of my clients. And to clarify too, right, there's gonna be differences in treatment and sometimes ICBT won't be the best for somebody, and sometimes ERP won't be the best for somebody. But at the same time, if we're not actively talking about it, clinicians can't get properly trained. Similar with erp, we can't get properly trained and then we're not getting the best treatment. So more discussions, more conversations, more understandings, more resources on that would be absolutely lovely. Cause ERP and ICBT saved my life and I think there's so many people that that can help for as well. But that's a little bit of my 2 cents, my long 2 cents.

[A]

I like it. It's a good 2 cents and I appreciate. Well, what would you say?

[C]

What would you say? What would you like to see more of?

[A]

You know, I think that ushers well into what I was thinking in terms of just kind of how IOCDF is growing. And I know they did a lot of listening sessions. I actually had an opportunity to meet Ben Gambr. Hopefully I'm saying your name correctly, I'm sure Ben's like, oh, I'm listening. Say it right, Nicole. Anyway, but he's the vice president of IOCDF and he is very interested in coming and hanging out with the fam. So I'm sure that we will be hearing from him sometime this fall. Fam going to coordinate something there. But one of his sole missions and how he first got involved with iocdf from my understanding, so he can correct me if I don't get it quite right, but was to come in and see how they could grow iocdf. And just in the brief conversation we had, we both concurred that there has been some insular focus of IOCDF in the past. And that's just as me coming in out of a different specialty and going, wow, there's so much ocd. And it's not poo pooing on the great work that Iocdiff has done. But why? Why, you know, isn't it bigger at this point? Why don't more people know about this? And there are some amazing new opportunities, particularly when people with platforms have the bravery and courage to come out and share, whether they're a football player like Zane Gonzalez, who was this year's, I think, Illumination Award.

[C]

Illumination.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And then last year's Illumination Award winner was Sheena Shane. She was there this year as well. And I think I heard maybe from you, Angie, that she was gonna make that. Did she say that in conversation?

[C]

She said that to us. She did, yeah. She's like, I think I'm gonna make this at annual event.

[A]

And we're like, whoa, I don't even remember that. I. I have to say. Okay, hang on a second. I gotta pause for story time real quick about Angie and I, we were having a chit chat and catching up because she's a dear friend and I love her. And we were outside of this area where one of the bigger. Actually the biggest session room, which is where Angie presented, by the way.

[B]

Both times.

[A]

Both times, actually. Yes, that's true. And so anywho, we're standing and Sheena Shay, if you're not familiar with her, was on Vanderpump Rules. And I'm sure other Bravo things. She's sang some songs, she's done things. She's doing a book tour soon. I think she just came out with a book look. And so she kept walking by and nobody was bothering her or whatnot because last year, like, she was like bait in a sea. And everyone's like, whoa, it's Sheena. But she was walking.

[B]

I think everyone knew that, though she was there. So everyone was probably looking out for her this year. We won't rise.

[A]

Probably because I was out in the lobby going, did you know she knows she's gonna be here? Madison was like, what?

[B]

Who? I don't. Yeah, not a vanderpump rules.

[A]

But Sheena walks by a couple times, and I didn't say anything because Angie and I are in our own zone. And by the time she walks by, like the third or fourth time, I said to Angie, do you know who that is? And she was like, no. And I said, she's a celebrity. Let's say hello real quick. And she was like, oh, I don't know. And I was like, shayna. And so Sheena came over and then I was like, let's get a picture with you and Teagan. And so we went to take a quick picture and I told Sheena, I said, we gotta get this picture because people are gonna be like, how did you manage to get a picture with Angie? Because she's awesome. And. And Sheena gave a little giggle. And she even took the picture with Angie's phone. She. She did the selfie. I was like, great, you're a pro. So we have people like that making a platform. So that was my little, quick, little side story, but I think that's really helpful.

[C]

Great space for her that she's not being bombarded, that she can come and bring herself to the table without feeling like she has to be, whatever that means.

[A]

And she was really kind when people were like, hey. And she, you know, Sheena. And she'd be like, hey. She wasn't like, oh, you know. And I thought it. I thought she was really sweet. She had pointed out she was wearing some swag from Allegra Caston's swag store. And I was just like, it's nice to see her not only using her platform to educate people about her and being brave enough to say she has ocd, but actually coming to the conference, learning about evidence based treatments. She had Dr. Jenny Yip on her podcast talking about postpartum O, C, D. Lots of really cool things coming from that. But what I would love to see in that outward growth, going back to that chat I had with Ben, is I would love to see some more color in representation. More. More diversity. I think just in about every way, I'd love to see diversity in treatment options. And I think recently IOCDF came out with their updated treatment guidelines and they do acknowledge icbt, which I think is huge. Very excited about that they recommend it as a second line treatment. I don't, I don't agree. But I think, and, and a lot of people are skeptical because it's a newer quote, unquote, newer treatment. But I also don't think many people know it's a 30 year old treatment. I don't really consider that new. And I don't think it's ever going to have as much research as erp.

[C]

Well, and it probably, I mean, if.

[B]

It won't, because it's older, because it's.

[A]

It'S like 20 years older than.

[C]

Yes, yeah, they've had more, 20 more years to accumulate. So that doesn't diminish its credibility or its worth.

[A]

Exactly. And so I don't think that's the bar. And I think sometimes just even having this sort of conversation where we're like, why is there a fuss about that sometimes as regarded as you're saying ERP shouldn't be the thing. And that isn't what I'm saying. It's not what I'm saying at all. And so what I'm saying here, it still might be misinterpreted. And I can only control how I think about it and my genuine feelings and intention. And I trust, I've learned through ICBT to trust my own intentions and all of that.

[C]

If I can even say this real quick, I, and I don't know, take it or leave it. But during one of our presentations, Krista Reed had done a beautiful job of talking about ERP as a beautiful modality and also talking about it using exposures that are in line with someone's values and in a justice based fashion. But I, you know, we noticed that one of the questions then after she so beautifully talked about how ERP is great and it doesn't have to look like X, Y and Z, it can also look in line with values and meeting the core fear in different ways. But one of the questions had noted that they maybe took that out of context and it looked inflammatory.

[A]

Perhaps the comment versus the question one.

[C]

Yeah, so it was more of a comment. Yes. Rather than a question. But I think it was misunderstood and I, you know, maybe this is a good space to say that ERP again is a wonderful modality and it is important that we're valuing our clients as we develop those exposures and should be doing it in a pro client, justice based way.

[A]

Yeah, I love justice based erp. You know, what I will say is, and I don't know why this is controversial, if you've ever done exposure and response prevention or been trained in it, you should know what a core fear is. And if you don't, that is a problem. Also, if you have ever done exposure and response prevention as either a client or maybe a family, supporting your loved one and learning through family accommodation to help reinforce the ERP at home, or if you're a clinician, you should know what response prevention is. And I think most especially when you go to a conference, you're going to run into, most people understand that and it's exposure and response prevention. But I will say, even when I went into BTTI training, there was a lot of us missing. Response prevention. Yes, we went together, Angie and I went together to BTTI training and people were missing a lot of response prevention, including myself. I was doing my best. I was working kind of in a silo here and Angie and I represent Northern Indiana and we were like, we're alone. And that's part of why they sent us to get BTTI trained so that we could improve. So this idea that we should always be willing to improve, no matter the modality, I don't see why that's controversial. I think our clients deserve that. I think we deserve that. I think families deserve that. And so it is interesting because you guys presented a very beautiful presentation. And essentially for anybody that is listening that wasn't there, which is probably gonna be most of you, the comment was like, this sounds like you're basically shitting on erp. That's not their words, that's my summation.

[C]

But they felt that, that maybe we were saying that exposures are traumatic and we were really just bringing home the message of, hey, let's do exposures that get to the core fear that value and empower and respect the client and are justice based.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think what was missing from maybe that person's comment also being at the talk, I, I believe the idea was to express how unfortunately people often sometimes say that ERP is traumatic, but that's just simply not true. And I think the point of, of Chris's message was, from what I gathered, the idea of expressing, hey, that's just false information and making sure that when we are using erp, we are like Angie and Nicole said, like, doing it in a client based, client focused way of like, what do we value? What is OCD taking from your life and how can we bring in exposures that are based in that? Because there's just unfortunately, and I'm going to say both treatments, right. There are not clinicians that are well enough trained in erp. Well enough trained in ICBT where it's not client focused. And I think it's making sure that we're giving all the clinicians that maybe feel uncomfortable about utilizing ERP the message that, hey, it's not traumatic. We just have to make sure we're looking at it from a perspective of a client based way and making sure things that are going to be, that's traumatic. What happens. Not easy, but definitely not easy. Definitely not easy. Exposures are definitely not easy, but they shouldn't be traumatic and they're not when done in that client led way. And I think that was the point of the message of expressing like, hey, this is not a traumatic treatment. But so many clients kind of come in with that idea or so many clinicians. Even in my own grad school, I would express some of the things that I'm doing and they're like, well, isn't that like, isn't that like a lot? And I'm like, well, you know, I could see it from that perspective. But here's the thing. The client's avoiding something they really love. And my goal is to help them figure out how do I get that back. Like spending time with your kids, cooking, going to the gym, like getting out into the world like you want to values being struggling. Exactly. So again, it was not in that, in that way. It was like Angie said, I think taken out of context.

[A]

I think one of the hard things too is trauma. Big T, little T gets operationalized in different ways as well. So trauma could be from a past event. Trauma could be like a way of someone describing. This was really scary. For me, it might be the words a incoming potential new client uses to describe their experience of living in the hell that is ocd. It's traumatic. And so sometimes when certain words get used, I think there's somewhat a pounce on, oh my gosh, you use this word and, and sometimes we're just matching the language of the client. But in the case of non justice based ERP or non response prevention, we're just doing a sensational exposure because we think that's what ERP is. And again, I, I'm not calling anybody out but myself. I'll use myself as an example. I got some exposures wrong. I, I told the clients as I was learning that I'm learning it. I don't know if I'm getting this perfect as a recovering perfectionist and that I would continue doing training on it. And I'm still training on it and I think I should still train on it. I should train on icbt.

[C]

That's why we go to the conferences.

[A]

Right. But yeah, I think it's, it's one of those things where it's, you know, I'll give you an example because I've talked with Dr. Caitlin Pinciotti about this quite a bit because she's been part of the group that has helped lead the charge on updating treatment guidelines and advocating for justice based care. If somebody has sexual orientation O C D and they're feeling concerned about it doesn't even matter what your orientation is. It's just going, oh my gosh, what if I'm not actually that orientation? What if I'm this other orientation? It could be straight, could be gay, could be non binary, it could be anything. And if somebody is doing an exposure where they're like, hey, just dress up in a pride flag and run around, go to a gay bar, flirt with somebody, what's the point in that exposure? Is it leading them towards something or is it kind of using a community that is already a marginalized community as somewhat of a prop for your exposure? And I don't think people do that with the intention. But also there used to be a lot more of those kind of interventions and as we've evolved, it's changed a lot. I think a lot of people have gotten the message that's not how we do erp. But when people are talking about non justice based and more sensational things, that's an example. Another example you guys talked about in your conference of the granola bar in the toilet. Because that was your, your presentation, right, Angie, that they were like, if you put a granola bar in the toilet, Krista, I think, shared about it, she was like, I'm not eating that. That's a goner. And you might be listening if you've never done ERP and go like that would be erp. No, that's the point. That shouldn't be erp.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

If you have contamination fears, like somebody without OCD isn't going to eat a granola bar out of the toilet. Why should you? And so if that happened, that's not the right kind of erp. It's okay to have that feedback. We need to help. Help. If that's happening out there, go. That's not what we do, y'. All. We need to keep learning and growing and focusing and improving. And so anytime there's constructive criticism, I feel like for ERP and it, I'm sure it can go for I CBT or act or, or metacognitive. Therapy or any other kind of modality too, even medication. You know, what we used to use has changed and now we know from research that we're going to use this. It's like good. Why can't we have these conversations? I think it's getting better. But I will say that's something I would like to see some improvement. So that was my long winded answer of where I would like to see some growth. I would like to see more diversity. I would like to see the International OCD foundation be more international and have roots around the world that makes it easier for people in other countries to access these resources and you know, just a number of things like that. Would like to see more diversity in offering evidence based treatments instead of needing to kind of give labels or a flowchart that always has to start one way. Like why not let the client choose? Do you want Coke or Pepsi? I would be frustrated if you're like, no, you're gonna be Coke first. And unless you can't handle Coke then you could try Pepsi. Honestly, I don't drink either. But. But the point is, but I'm a.

[B]

Coke girl, I don't wanna drink Pepsi.

[A]

There you go. But the point is some people can't do one, some people can't do the other. Some people can do both. Either way, shouldn't people be the one to decide? We might be experts in training and understanding and we have experts in research but that doesn't mean we're the expert in them. So they get to lead that. And I feel like that's something that ADAA does a nice job of putting because they cover a host of disorders and they cover a host of modalities and there's more color. I think still more diversity and safe spaces for different intersections would be beautiful. But that's what I would like to see.

[B]

And I one thing I guess I want to touch on too, reflecting on grad school as well, like client or other students, like learning about ERP and what you guys talked about was essentially exactly that experience. A lot of exposure, not a lot of response, prevention and would end up in that space of doing maybe exposures that weren't super client led. And I want to clarify, no clinician, well, I shouldn't say no, but a majority of clinicians are not going into spaces and going, okay, let's do this thing that's going to really make them feel scared. Right. It's nuanced, right. They're thinking that they're doing something that is, is right and correct. No clinician I would hope is going into these things thinking like, okay, I'm gonna traumatize the client and not care what. That's nobody's goal ever. Right, right. And I think it's more. This conversation is more about helping people understand that the learning process of ERP is not based in just exposure. It's based a lot in response prevention and a lot in client LED care. And that's not necessarily a space of therapist attempting to do something wrong, but just not having enough information.

[A]

Yeah, I remember distinctly we, we met in these small groups from the btti. They taught us and then they had practice time. And I honestly think they could like double that amount of practice time and it still would be something that they could.

[C]

It's like what we were talking about earlier, right? Applying.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yes. So I. But I distinctly can remember we would just run vignette after vignette after vignette. We all brought it a case with our client's consent, and we went through that and we practice how we would build hierarchies and things like that. And I still can remember Eric Storch was leading my group, who is a very prominent researcher in exposure and response prevention. And in his kind of kind, gentle, but firm way, he would say, you.

[C]

Know, that's a good.

[A]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying now. How about some response prevention? And it was like so many of us were like, oh, no, did I not put that in there? What would that even look like? And I'm like, we're the BTTI people. We're the BTTI people. That is a designation. And, and that being said, the btti, I think that they do a lot of good work. And you know, if anything, more training, more trainings would be helpful because those.

[C]

Weight losses, maybe more advanced trainings. Oh, you know what? One of the things that I heard, the BFRB gals, you know, that had done a training, we were talking while waiting for, to ask a question from someone and we were all just talking about. And. And one of them suggested, hey, we do. You know, we did this pre conference training on bfrbs. It would be great if every other year we did the entry level and then the opposite year we would do advanced, then we would do beginner intro, then we would do advanced. Like, I love that, I love that concept. And we could do the same thing with erp, like getting people trained like a BTTI there and then an advanced the opposite year. And for any modality, it could be cbit, it could be I cbt, it could be act like, do you think.

[A]

It'D be too much for people on the Sunday to even have an offering of that? Because sometimes people can't with clients and stuff get in for earlier on Thursday.

[B]

I mean, I would. It would compete with prioritize that.

[A]

Yeah, especially.

[C]

I mean, I don't know, I especially like for myself after I present, I'm just so relieved because it makes me super, super nervous. I've never habituated to that. But after it's done, I feel so free. Yeah, that actually would be a great time because before I'm still like kind of anxious and that nervous energy, so.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[B]

I think ICBT would be a good space to do that in too. And I want to clarify too that we're talking a lot about the idea of like how there are still some clinicians that are not treated properly in erp. There are a lot of clinicians still that are in. Not trained properly in ICBT as well. Same. Yeah. So when we have this discussion or there's this discussion of maybe like, you know, ICBT at times, maybe people feel is not helpful for clients or can be reassurance. And again, if you're not properly trained in it, that's fair. In the same way that if you're not properly trained in erp, it can become compulsive too. So I think when we're having this discussion on implementing more trainings and opening the conversations, having clinicians that are better trained in ICBT and ERP starts with this type of conversation instead of just saying it doesn't necessarily work or there's a lot of clients that have suffered from using one or the other. It's more about okay instead of. Of blaming the clinicians, which I don't think necessarily we are. It's more on the. Let's open up the conversation of okay, how can we fix this problem versus complain about it. Yeah, exactly. You know, and that's a good point.

[C]

Because I don't want to be a complainer. I do. Let's be a problem solver, right?

[A]

Totally. Yeah, let's. Let's fix things, you know, in non compulsive ways. Totally. Well, as we kind of wrap up, I know that it is that time of year and you guys were mentioning when we were in Chicago that you guys are having your OCD walk come up. So we'd love for you to share about that and then Angie would love for you to share about the OCD walk that's going to be happening for us that is Midwest specific. But I'm going to encourage you to check out iocdf.org to see if you have a walk near you, because there's walks all over the US but let this maybe be a. A roots point. Remember when I was like, like me and roots places more than just the United States, because this is a worldwide problem walk, or the potential for walk striding in other areas of the world, I think is also an exciting idea and would love to see that happening as well. And so first, Madison, tell us about the Chicago Walk, because it's soon.

[B]

Yes, yes, it is. It is next month. And I will provide you with the flyer. I'll text it to you so you can put it on the blog. But this year, and for those of the Chicago folks, Nicole know, the last, like, couple years been very fucking windy and rainy.

[A]

It's been very sad.

[B]

Yeah, we still get out there, we still walk, but this year we're having it somewhere new. We have an indoor space just in case that happens. Oh, so here. Yeah. I'm very excited.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's where the raffle will be. So you get to go in and like, put your raffle tickets in, inside in the little bags and stuff. But. But it's a great event. It's going to be Saturday, August 23rd. We decided to do it on Saturday this year as well because a lot of people have maybe some religious obligations. Also the religion of sports usually comes on Sundays, so that's also part of it. So we did Saturday this year. We tried to keep the time also for some of the other religious folks that do stuff on Saturdays, but we did 12 to 4 this year and it is in Central park in Skokie, Illinois. Highly recommend coming because I. It's a wonderful event. There'll be maybe some games to play. There'll be good conversations. There'll be booths that people can chat at. My practice will also be there. Again, have a booth. Chicago Counseling Center. We love it. Yeah.

[A]

So what's it for? Because I think you're making a good point. You can be a client, you can be a family member, you can be a clinician, right?

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So the OCD walk is for every walk of life. If you wanna learn more about ocd, great space. If you wanna make friends in the OCD community, great space. If you're a clinician that wants to learn more about ocd, great space. The whole point is to just come out, walk, show your support. You get a wonderful T shirt if you sign up and a bunch of great raffle prizes.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. The raffle gifts are no joke. They were like some serious. Did somebody get like, AirPods last year?

[B]

Yeah, my. So Alyssa, the. The intern now that works at our practice, she graduated. Shout out to Alyssa. She works at our practice still. She was an AirPod. She was the only other clinician besides. Well, actually my supervisor showed up too, but me, my supervisor Josh Kaplan and Alyssa Goldwasher all came and she won AirPods. I'm like, yo, what the heck?

[A]

That's so cool. They had amazing, amazing ones Angie and I came to. And again, if you. If you want to check out, I'll even link the episode for OCD Chicago walk that happened. I think it was in September and it was so rainy, so Madison's practice had like a canopy and Angie and I just were like, boom, we're here, we're under it. It was pouring. It was pouring.

[B]

But people still walked them.

[A]

But they did walk and they still raffled and they had amazing prizes. I handed out a lot of pens. It was very fun. And then it birthed what Angie.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Indiana is having its first OCD walk, so. And Nicole and I are co chairing that and so we're super excited to do that together.

[A]

Yeah, we're so excited.

[C]

I'm gonna give a plug for Ann Arbor, Michigan too, because they're having their first walk too, But Indiana's is October 4 from 10 to 2 in Zionsville, Indiana, which is right there in Indianapolis, in the really great part of Indianapolis. So Nice Heritage Trail. And Bronwyn Troyer is going to be our grand marshal. And we're going to have tons of booths. We're going to have. Have a calm sensory station, a face painting, some slime.

[A]

I'm gonna do the face painting too. I'm. That's me.

[B]

So it's gonna be.

[C]

It's gonna be fun.

[A]

Yes. And Angie has done so much work on this and so I am co chair and name only, really, because Angie is absolutely.

[C]

We do it together, sister. So I'm so excited to do it with you.

[A]

She's the superstar behind it. She really is. But it is gonna be really cool. Again, it's available for anyone. You could be a kiddo with OCD and come with your family. You could be a roommate that isn't even roomies maybe anymore, but you know a little bit about it and you wanna learn more about it and Maybe win some AirPods or whatever else is.

[C]

We're raffles too.

[A]

Yes, we're gonna have raffles too, too. I can't guarantee actually that there will be AirPods. But there will be raffle baskets and it'll be.

[B]

There'll be some stuff.

[A]

There'll be stuff. She's like, don't name things specifically because.

[C]

I don't know what they are yet.

[A]

Chet, co chair. You see how I'm just like, wild and she has strained me in and I. I literally know nothing about what's going on.

[C]

You are bringing the AirPods to Revel.

[A]

I am.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Oh, no. Oh, no. So that's happening on the 4th of October later this year. But again, if you're listening to this way in the future, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm not in the Midwest. I don't have the corn fields around me, y'. All, it's okay. Check out iocdf. Or if you're in another part of the world, you can also consider starting that. There are also other organizations doing great work with ocd. And so even though there's. This is a conference recap for iocdf. O C D UK Australia has a really good OCD non profit. I'll look over my resource list and link those over on the blog as well. So with that, any. Any final thoughts y' all wanna say?

[B]

Come to the conference, meet people. It's just a beautiful, wonderful space and community. It just is so reflective and I'm gonna say rejuvenating for the soul but not for the body. It' have the black pan. A lot of, like, doing stuff, but so incredibly great to be in a space where of that I don't have in my real life. I think I have one friend with OCD and that's relatively new experience for them. So it's like, it's just been me and my brain, so it's lovely to turn every corner and have some like, like the Spider man meme. Like, oh, my God, we're all the same.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. Any last thoughts from you, Angie?

[C]

Oh, I'm. Thanks for. I mean, thanks for having us on, first of all.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Giving a voice to our experience. Just like Madison said, find your tribe, find your people, Find the places where you need to learn and advance and get better. If you're a clinician, show up. Be all the colorful person that you are to the world.

[A]

And if you are afraid and you're like, I want to show up, but I can't, this might feel like it's hard to take in, but we'll hold this space for you. You're not alone. You're not alone. And when you're ready or when you're able, there's not pressure, it's not a failure, but there's an amazing community available. And so that is one of the most precious things. I mean, when I see every year the kid track, I think it's the elementary track, does this superhero. I'm getting cold chills even saying it. The superhero session where everybody kind of designs their cape and their outfit because they're superheroes fighting their ocd. And to watch these kids run around and just laugh and enjoy and have fun, it's so, it's so powerful. And I was like, this, this is what we're doing. We're living, we're giving life, we're supporting freedom from this really debilitating and cruel disorder. And so it's a privilege to have you ladies. And I called them in like last second. I was like, I'm gonna do a conference recap. Any chance you guys wanna chit chat with me? So they were, they're ride or dies. Cause they were like, yeah, like let's do this. So thanks for jumping on heel. Angie, I'm so sorry your foot got broken.

[B]

It'll be great.

[A]

And get some rest, both of you. You guys did a great job at the conference. Thanks so much for hanging out with the fam and we'll see you soon. Thank you for joining me and our OCD family community. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please like and subscribe to the OCD Family podcast. Wherever you enjoy your podcasts. Did you find this content helpful? Please consider leaving a review. The more people that know they're not alone, the better. For more information regarding today's podcast, please visit OCD family podcast.com and remember to join the email list while you're there. It will provide you with the most up to date information, resources and the download on the family chatter. Oh yeah, nothing says family like Madison, Angie and me talking OCD con with the family. That's right, I went there. And you can too. @ OCD familypodcast.com Therapists ready to shape the future of pediatric OCD treatment. Join the Next Steps in Pediatric OCD On Demand course from Angela Adamson Springer LCSW and learn how to adapt inference based cognitive behavioral therapy for kids. With research still emerging, this course empowers you to explore new methods and contribute to the growing field of evidence based practices. With OCD Training School's 365 day access for on demand courses, you'll gain practical tools to help kids by adapting ICBT's signature 12 modules to be as creative as the kiddos you're treating. So sign [e-mail] courses to support the podcast at no extra cost and support further growth and hope for our youngest of warriors.