How We Met the Office Ladies

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "How We Met the Office Ladies"

Podcast: Office Ladies
Hosts: Jenna Fischer & Angela Kinsey
Guests: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas (How We Made Your Mother podcast)
Release Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special crossover episode brings together Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey (The Office's Pam and Angela) with Josh Radnor (Ted Mosby) and Craig Thomas (co-creator) of How I Met Your Mother. They discuss their respective shows, the enduring appeal of workplace comedies, parallels between the series, behind-the-scenes stories, and the unique perspectives that actors and creators bring to revisiting their work. The episode also celebrates the launch of "How We Made Your Mother" on the Office Ladies Network, and features a lively breakdown of The Office’s Season 5 episode "Customer Survey."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Announcements and Podcast Network News

• NBC Monday Comedy Block: Jenna and Angela announce that "The Paper" (their new NBC comedy) is airing Mondays at 8:30/7:30c, bundled with "St. Denis Medical" (created by Office alum Justin Spitzer). [05:00]
• Rewatch Plans: Starting next year, Office Ladies will cover every episode of The Paper. Listeners can submit questions for each episode via their website. [05:40]
• Office Ladies Podcast Network: "How We Made Your Mother" is officially part of their podcast family. [06:21]

2. Health & TikTok Trends Icebreaker

• The hosts share their new morning routines: Jenna jumps 50 times each morning (for circulation/lymphatic health), Angela does self-patting for energy. [03:00-04:45]
• Their playful banter sets the BFF tone that fans love.

3. Crossover Discussion: The Office x How I Met Your Mother

First Impressions of "Customer Survey"

• Josh Radnor:
  • "Mine was positive. I had a positive reaction." [12:40]
  • Observes that The Office's characters are nuanced—none are purely heroic; everyone has flaws, a need for validation, and compelling insecurities (especially around perceived feedback). [12:47-13:37]
  • Notes both shows depict "a chosen family" in the workplace—a key to their universal appeal. [13:37]
• Craig Thomas:
  • Praises the episode's clever writing—setups and payoffs, mystery structure (who sabotaged the surveys), and emotional depth delivered through comedic devices (the earpiece plot). [14:29-15:12]
  • Highlights how technology used in storylines ("old tech") now feels quaint, but effectively serves the show’s narrative. [14:55]
  • Draws parallels to How I Met Your Mother’s mystery elements and emotional cliffhangers. [16:12]

Behind the Scenes – Emotional Resonance and Style

• The importance of moments of redemption for "struggling" characters in both shows, e.g., Michael’s heartfelt confession to Kelly about never feeling chosen. [17:47]
• Angela:
  • Reflects on Michael's honesty: "He gets really honest with her in a way that's not performative for the camera… I used to love that transition moment for Michael." [17:56]
• Both shows feature "stealthy switcheroos," where jokes evolve into profound emotional moments by episode's end – a signature of their writing.

The Art of Everyday Storytelling

• The conversation turns meta: why audiences are drawn to ordinary people (not kings/queens), the power of eavesdropping on modern life's everyday drama, and the human fascination with the private lives of strangers (the definition of "sonder"). [18:27-26:33]
• Notable Quote: Josh explains sonder:
  • "It's the feeling, the sudden realization that everyone passing you on the street… has just as robust an interior life as you do and just as fascinating a story." [24:30-25:29]
• Jenna shares her fascination with the idea that every passing stranger is a story in progress, echoing the theme of both series—a celebration of the mundane made meaningful.

Shared DNA: Music and Technical Innovations

• Both shows’ theme songs are “bangers” that instantly evoke a mood of joy and nostalgia.
  • Craig reveals The Solids (his band with Carter Bays) wrote How I Met Your Mother’s theme.
  • “I wrote down one of my notes was, God, this theme song kicks ass.” – Craig Thomas [17:18]
• Discussion of each show's pioneering style:
  • Office’s documentary realism and soundtrack of “no music” vs. How I Met’s cinematic editing, non-linear storytelling, and strategic use of a laugh track and music for emotional manipulation.
  • “The soundtrack is the sounds of an office... It’s breathing, it’s papers moving, it’s keyboards clacking. There’s something so hypnotic.” – Craig Thomas [22:28-23:22]
• Both shows created new comedy formats by ignoring or reinterpreting sitcom norms, sometimes out of necessity or “naiveté” (per Brian Eno's theory about new forms from 'happy accidents'). [33:57]

Sitcom Careers and Creative Lives

• The actors discuss how they watched (or didn’t watch) other sitcoms while filming; Angela did improv alongside the show; Craig could only enjoy The Office, not other comedies, because of the rivalry/comparison trap. [36:35]
• Josh and Jenna reminisce about first meeting at a reading of Josh’s screenplay, highlighting the interconnectedness of the creative community. [37:39-39:04]

Parallels Between Iconic Characters

• Noting internet articles mapping The Office characters onto HIMYM counterparts (e.g., Barney = Dwight, Ted = Jim)—both pairs have unique codes, over-the-top personalities, and provide comedic and dramatic foils. [41:16]
  • “Barney and Dwight are so similar because they are so deeply living in their own delusional narrative…” – Craig Thomas [41:56]
• Writers' craft: planting long-term story seeds and callbacks, like the “standing in graves” wedding at Schrute Farms, echoing classic sitcom conventions like Chekhov’s gun—but over years, not acts. [49:28-50:41]

Writers' Room Magic: Collaboration and Payoff

• Both casts praise the detail-oriented, collaborative writers’ rooms, and the joy of creating moments that pay off years later. [50:52]
• Angela and Jenna delight in the final scene of "Customer Survey"—the subtle camera work, Andy's slow intruding into frame, and the callback to Schrute wedding traditions. [48:36-49:40]

Creative Freedom and Alt Lines

• Actors had some leeway to suggest or tweak lines (Josh’s "mailed it" callback is cited), but HIMYM tended to be tightly scripted for timing. [45:09-45:42]

4. Creative Projects and Recommendations

• Craig Thomas's Book: “That's Not How It Happened” is inspired by his own family and explores the subjective experience of storytelling, told from multiple family members’ perspectives. Both Jenna and Angela praise it as touching, funny, and thought-provoking. Josh and Cobie Smulders voice the audiobook’s parent characters. [53:30-54:21]
• Closing encouragement: Listeners are urged to check out “How We Made Your Mother” and Craig’s new book.

5. Fan Questions and More to Come

• Jenna and Angela promise an upcoming deep-dive into the superfan “Customer Survey” episode, with trivia and hidden gems they couldn’t discuss in this crossover format. [57:05]
• Bonus: Office Ladies will guest on "How We Made Your Mother" (dropping tomorrow), where they’ll rewatch HIMYM’s pilot. [57:25]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Everyone is obsessed on some level with their perception, like, how they're being perceived... It's Mindy's book: Is everyone hanging out without me?"
  — Josh Radnor [13:22]

• "The Office is a family... it’s a chosen family. So I think both shows are family shows. And you see, especially in this episode, the way the characters in the Office fight, it's very sibling-like."
  — Josh Radnor [13:37]

• "When something's really, really funny and yet has this incredible emotional depth and pathos to it...that's the overlap between these two shows."
  — Craig Thomas [16:44]

• On “sonder”:
  "It's the feeling, the sudden realization that everyone passing you on the street...has just as robust an interior life as you do."
  — Josh Radnor [25:15]

• "We got to do one thing in one year, another thing to keep it alive three years later or whatever. And then four years later...you get to pay it off in this completely different way."
  — Craig Thomas [50:06]

• "Juke the stats, cupcake."
  — Dwight (highlighted by Josh as a favorite line) [51:33]

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Important Timestamps

• Introducing crossover & announcements: 05:00–07:06
• Customer Survey: Recap and reactions: 12:34–14:29
• Show style and music discussion: 17:04–23:22
• Interpersonal dynamics, 'sonder' discussion: 24:05–26:26
• Technical and creative approach—comedy styles: 31:24–36:35
• Parallels: Characters (Dwight/Barney, Jim/Ted): 41:14–43:55
• Long-term story payoffs and callbacks: 49:28–50:41
• Craig Thomas's book plug: 53:30–55:33
• Plans for next Office Ladies episode: 57:05–57:31

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Conclusion

This engaging crossover is a feast for comedy fans and TV rewatch connoisseurs, full of personal warmth, mutual admiration, and sharp insights about what makes beloved workplace sitcoms tick. Jenna, Angela, Josh, and Craig offer behind-the-scenes details, celebrate the craft of sitcom storytelling, and draw emotional connections across two iconic TV universes.

Don't miss:

• Upcoming Office Ladies deep dive on "Customer Survey" (superfan cut)
• Office Ladies appearing on "How We Made Your Mother" rewatch podcast
• Craig Thomas’s new novel, “That’s Not How It Happened”

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Listen to this episode for a masterclass in sitcom legacy, storytelling craft, and found-family joy!

Transcript

[Jenna Fischer]

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[Jenna Fischer]

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[Angela Kinsey]

That's SimpliSafe.com OfficeLadies. There's no safe like Simplisafe. I don't know about you guys, but I get so busy around lunch and I just want a great meal right there, ready to go. And that's why I love Blue Apron. Did you know Blue Apron has shipped more than 530 million mill kits? Wow. That's a lot. They know what they're doing. And now it's more convenient than ever, delivering delicious and easy meals without the subscription. You know, here's the thing. Sometimes you get a subscription and you get subscription anxiety. It's like, oh, no, I'm going to get these meals. Am I going to eat them all? And you know what? Who needs another subscription? There's so many. But now meet the new Blue Apron with no subscription. So here's my list. It's dish by Blue Apron. Delicious, nutritious, ready real fast. Four cheese ravioli and red pepper sauce with Romano, beans, pesto and parmesan. Five minutes. Five minutes and it's ready. I also got harissa turkey with brown rice and kale, and I got big cheesy panko chicken. So whether you're looking for quick weeknight dinners or a great lunch, family friendly favorites, Blue Apron gives you the tools to cook meals you love on your schedule. Try the new Blue Apron today and get 40% off your first two orders [e-mail] with code OFFICE40. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.

[Jenna Fischer]

I'm Jenna Fisher.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fischer]

We were on the Office together and we're best friends. And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Lovers podcast just for you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the Office with exclusive interviews, behind the scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.

[Jenna Fischer]

We're the Office Lady 6.0. Hello.

[Angela Kinsey]

Howdy.

[Jenna Fischer]

How's it going?

[Angela Kinsey]

Pretty good. How are you?

[Jenna Fischer]

I mean, I'm good. I've started a new TikTok trend.

[Angela Kinsey]

What?

[Jenna Fischer]

A TikTok trend. I started doing a thing that I saw. You want to know what it is?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. I'm not on TikTok.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, me either, but it made its way over to Instagram, which is how I found out about it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Is this something you can show me right now? Here.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's something you can do every morning, and it's supposed to boost your health and metabolism and stuff.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, here's what it is. Okay?

[Jenna Fischer]

You jump up and down 50 times first thing in the morning. It takes less than a minute, so it's. I'm not gonna do that.

[Angela Kinsey]

I'll have to pee if I jump up and down.

[Jenna Fischer]

Lady, you don't have to do it immediately after getting out of bed. You can pee, you can shower, and then jump up and down 50 times. It's just like sometime in your morning, you gotta jump up and down.

[Angela Kinsey]

How high do I have to jump?

[Jenna Fischer]

Not high, just jump. But here's the thing. I started it. I'm on, like, day, maybe six after the first day, my calves were so sore. Just one day of 50 jumps. My calves. I felt it.

[Angela Kinsey]

When's the last time you jumped on a trampoline? Cause I jumped on the trampoline with my kids a while back, and I felt like I'd been in a car accident after.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's been a long time, but supposedly this helps to. To, like, get your circulation going and flush your lymphatic system. And I don't know. The lady in the Instagram video had great things to say after doing it for one month. And I got totally. I was like, I'll do it. So I'll keep everyone posted.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, you know what I started doing? I think you know this. I saw a video where a lady pats herself down. She starts at her shoulder and she goes, pat, pat, pat, pat, pat, pat, all the way down her arm. Pat, pat, pat, pat. And then she does her legs.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's a lymphatic thing, too.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I started doing it and it does wake you up.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, so you are slapping yourself awake and I'm jumping myself awake.

[Angela Kinsey]

There it is.

[Jenna Fischer]

Same world.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. All right, well, listen, everybody. We've got a really fun episode today, but we are kicking things off with a big announcement. We talked about this a little bit in our second drink this week, but in case you didn't hear, the Paper is now airing on NBC every Monday at 8:30pm Eastern, 7:30pm Central.

[Angela Kinsey]

Ding, bing, bong, bing. Did I do it?

[Jenna Fischer]

Nice.

[Angela Kinsey]

Remember the little peacock? Well, it started this week and we're super excited about it.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes, it's being bundled with St. Denis Medical, which, as you know, stars Wendy McLendon Covey, aka Concierge Marie. St. Denis Medical was created by Office alum Justin Spitzer. So basically, Monday nights on NBC, you get two great comedies from Office folks.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love it. And guys, guess what else? We are here to announce to you all that starting the new year, we're going to break down all of the Paper episodes. So get caught up on Peacock or NBC and meet us back here in the new year for all the insider info and tidbits and trivia. We're going to be hitting everyone up.

[Jenna Fischer]

And we also just put some folders up on the Office Lady's website where you can submit questions for each of the Paper episodes.

[Angela Kinsey]

But we're not done with fun stuff. Today we've got a fun crossover episode for you. Jenna and I are going to be joined by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas, the hosts of How We Made youe Mother, the Rewatch podcast. That is so fantastic.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. If you are a loyal listener of Office Ladies, you already know that this show, How We Made youe Mother, is now available on the Office Ladies Network.

[Angela Kinsey]

And for those of you not familiar with How We Made youe Mother, it is a great rewatch podcast of the hit show How I Met yout Mother which ran on CBS for nine seasons from 2005 to 2014. The show was a huge hit. It was nominated for something like 28 Emmy Awards including Best Comedy Series. Josh Radner played the character Ted Mosby. I love it because he says he is the I in How I Met yout Mother. And Craig Thomas was the co creator of the show and it's so cool to hear their behind the scenes stories from their different perspectives.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, I mean I watched the show when it was on. I loved it. And their podcast is so great. They have that unique perspective of having both an actor and a co creator. So I feel like it's like if Greg Daniels sat in on every episode of Office Ladies and told us what the writers were thinking when they crafted the storylines. But also, Josh and Craig, they're just such thoughtful, positive people. Like, their energy is so uplifting. I just. I love listening to them.

[Angela Kinsey]

Me too. I was telling my Josh because now my Josh is also listening and loves it. I said, aren't they just so easy and pleasant? It's like they're wonderful to hang out with, you know? Okay, so everyone here is what's happening today. Craig and Josh watched an episode of the Office, and they're gonna be our guests on Office Ladies.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's right. We watched season five Customer Survey. Now, me and Ange, we watched the peacock superfan version. Craig and Josh watched the original broadcast version. You might remember, this is the episode where Pam is away at art school in New York, and she and Jim spend the day listening to one another's day over those little teeny, tiny Bluetooths. Meanwhile, Angela and Andy are trying to plan their wedding. And this is the episode where they decide to get married at Schrute Farms.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, this is also the episode where Dwight and Jim both get really horrible feedback on their customer reviews. And they figure out that Kelly purposely doctored the reviews as revenge because they didn't go to her America's Got Talent party.

[Jenna Fischer]

This is one of my favorite episodes. I'm so excited to hear their take on it.

[Angela Kinsey]

I loved rewatching it. And you guys, not only that, tomorrow we're going to be on How We Made youe Mother chatting with them about an episode on their show. So be sure to check that out as well.

[Jenna Fischer]

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[Angela Kinsey]

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[Josh Radnor]

Hi.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hello, guys.

[Jenna Fischer]

Hi. Josh Radner and Craig Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

That was to us, ladies.

[Josh Radnor]

I didn't know that was to us or to your audience, but hello.

[Jenna Fischer]

This is so exciting. Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

Thanks for having us in every sense of that word.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. This is the first time we're all like, I guess in one space together, like seeing each other.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, this is it. I'm meeting you.

[Jenna Fischer]

We are so excited, guys. We're so excited to have you on Office Ladies Network. We love your podcast.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

You guys are the best at this. That means so much coming from you. Thank you guys for having us. We're thrilled to be joining forces with you. You guys, you're the best at this.

[Josh Radnor]

It's an honor.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our audience is going to love your podcast. You're doing such a great job. Jenna and I have been talking so much about the two different perspectives that you bring to the rew. It's so good.

[Josh Radnor]

Thank you, guys.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, we're friends in real life like you guys are. That part helps.

[Josh Radnor]

That's so funny you think that, Craig, but go on. Sorry. Yeah, no, that's sweet.

[Craig Thomas]

Wait a second.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, we love you and how you break down your episodes and we thought it would be fun to have you on to talk about an episode of the Office. So we asked you guys to watch Customer survey from season five.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. We love this episode and we were curious what was your overall reaction to it?

[Josh Radnor]

Mine was positive.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, that's good.

[Josh Radnor]

I had a positive reaction.

[Angela Kinsey]

Good.

[Josh Radnor]

I loved it. I watched it twice. I really first to kind of let it wash over me and the second time I just wanted to jot down things that delighted me, which is Something Craig and I do on our own podcast. But I don't know. One thing I was really struck with is, like, every character is like, there's no kind of heroically virtuous character on the show. Like, everyone's got their spiky edges, and everyone can be a little ethically compromised. But also there's this. It's not just Michael's. The most overt kind of like me, like me, like me. But everyone is obsessed on some level with their perception, like, how they're being perceived, especially in this episode, because it's literally about feedback. Like, what are people thinking of me? And even Jim's thing at the end, Like, I didn't. I wasn't invited. You know what I mean?

[Craig Thomas]

Like, this.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, I didn't get a mug right? Like, there's something very human about is. I mean, it's like. It's Mindy's book. Is everyone hanging out without me. You know, that's very human. And one other thing I had heard this thing that all television is about family at some core level. I think it's because that's how families would gather around and watch, you know, watch a story together. But the Office is a family. You know, it's not a vertical family. It's not like, you know, genetic family, but it's a horizontal family. Same with How I Met your Mother. It's a chosen family. So I think both shows are family shows. And you see, especially in this episode, like, the way the. The characters in the Office fight, it's very sibling, like, very. Yeah, they're really. They're at each other's throats in a very familial way. What about you, Craig?

[Craig Thomas]

I just found. I loved it. This is a great episode. I hadn't seen this since it aired. I'm struck by how there's so many similarities to How I Met yout Mother. There's so many. As a writer and a showrunner, like, this has so many of the things I'm looking for, Setups and payoffs, these stealthy little things, these little seeds that you plant. You don't even know it's important to the story. And then at the end, it kind of gut punches you with how important it is. Those little Bluetooth things. Josh and I talk a lot about how technology has caught up with and surpassed us, our TV shows, in the last 20 years, where it's like these incredibly little ear things. It's like, people all have this now, but at the time, that's always hilarious to me. When technology sort of Comes around.

[Angela Kinsey]

We call it old tech. I'm sorry.

[Craig Thomas]

I know. It's like you're old tech alert. We have a lot of old tech. Put it that way. I know. I'm at your mother, but just the idea that. That becomes really heartbreaking at the end. Or really, like, this real challenge to Jim and Pam's relationship all born out of what seems like this light little comedic runner about the things in their ears, and they're hearing each other's sides of conversation. The fact that that had this emotional punch at the end was so clever. We also talk about in How I Met yout Mother, the whole series of How I Met yout Mother is a mystery. Right. Who's the mother? How does he meet her? What happens? It's this larger series, and we discovered that kind of a lot of the good episodes of how much Mother in Miniature are mysteries. And I really like the idea that there's something afoot here. There's a Sherlock Holmes case. Something's weird about these customer surveys. At first you think they're just like, their egos are bruised and they're making it up that there's something weird. No, there actually is something weird. There is something nefarious that is happening here. And the idea that they start to solve this mystery case and that Min Ti's character really did tamper and sabotage it actually is true. I loved that. I love that the through line of the episode is a mystery being solved. I love that the episode ends on a big cliffhanger of, like, what does this mean for Jim and Pam? Yeah, Michael. And the bonding scene where Michael pretends to scold her for having given the erroneous and false surveys is really sweet. That Michael gets this vulnerable moment to say, no one ever comes to my parties either.

[Josh Radnor]

Why do I make so much guacamole?

[Craig Thomas]

Why do I make so much guacamole?

[Jenna Fischer]

My favorite line in the whole episode.

[Craig Thomas]

And that's the other thing. It's when something's really, really funny and yet has this incredible emotional depth and pathos to it. And it's really human. And I think that's the overlap between these two shows.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You know, another overlap. Both have opening credits with songs that are bangers.

[Craig Thomas]

Ah, yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Like when the Office theme song.

[Craig Thomas]

I love the Office theme song.

[Josh Radnor]

Kicks up in the same. With How I Met yout Mother, it's like, okay. Okay. Like, you kind of know.

[Craig Thomas]

It gets you psyched.

[Josh Radnor]

It gets you psyched. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That's Carter and my band. That's me and Carter. That's Our band, the How I Met yout Mother themed song, the Solids. Yeah, that's us. Carter and I. Carter and I met in college playing in bands together. We were writing songs together before we were writing TV together. And we did. Our band, the Solids did the theme song. I'm very honored, Josh, to be mentioned in the same breath as the Office theme song, which I think is a total banger. And I had not heard it in a minute because I hadn't rewatched it in a while. I wrote down one of my notes was, God, this theme song kicks ass. Like, it just gets you so excited, that theme song.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's true, both of them. Every time I hear them, I get happy. I'm like, okay, it makes you happy. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So true.

[Angela Kinsey]

It does. I think one of the things I like about both of the shows is that that redemption moment where there is a character that is struggling with something, and there's always that moment where your heart takes a turn. And I thought you guys did that so well. And I love the moment. One of my favorite moments in this episode is between Michael and Kelly, and when he shares how much he struggles. And he gets really honest with her in a way that's not performative for the camera the way he normally is. Jo, kind of like the Pick Me character, but he was just really honest with her. And I used to love that transition moment for Michael.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You know, it also occurs to me, like, a question one might ask themselves is, like, why is this film crew still filming these people?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

But the way I think about it is, like, a person with a really good filmmaking eye would be like, these are fascinating people. Like, there's a fascinating story going on here. And it's not about kings and queens, and it's not about super wealthy people. It's about people. And the. Just. There were moments, you know, with Jim and Pam over the years that were like. Like Chekhov. Like, they're like. They're like, you know, like in the Jane Austen or something. Like, the fingertips graze together and it's just like magic, like, big firework kind of thing. And I feel like the modesty of it is actually what gives it its myth quality, if that makes sense. Like that it's just really about people in Scranton. And if you ever watch. That's why I think in some ways, I love documentaries even more than regular films, because watching people behave in. In an unselfconscious way. Like, if you. If you watch people in the airport or in the grocery store, everyone is a brilliant actor. Like, Everyone is a. Everyone is giving, like, a brilliant performance of picking out a melon, you know?

[Angela Kinsey]

It's true.

[Craig Thomas]

They're actually total commemor.

[Josh Radnor]

They're actually doing it. And it's fascinating to watch. The woman who ran my drama program was like, I'm never bored. Cause there are people around. Like, I can just study human behavior, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's my favorite thing. At an airport, I take a journal, and I will just write down what people are doing.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

And this is true.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love it.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I also think we're fighting the distracting rectangle that is taking us away from that, you know?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, for sure.

[Craig Thomas]

By the way, Angela, that looks very suspicious. I just wanted. I want you to be prepared that you may get arrested at an airport at some point. If you're just taking. If you just have a pad out, you're taking notes. Just be careful. That's all I'm saying.

[Angela Kinsey]

Everyone that listens to Office Ladies knows that I keep a journal. I have read it on our podcast. So I hope that when I am, like, observing people at the airport and jotting things down, some Office Ladies member, she's okay.

[Josh Radnor]

We know.

[Angela Kinsey]

Come to my aid. If someone's like, write her up. She's up to shenanigans.

[Josh Radnor]

She's not on her phone.

[Craig Thomas]

Why is she not on her phone?

[Jenna Fischer]

I just read this book called Tell Me Everything that I just absolutely loved. And the theme of this book is that every person's life has a story worth telling. And so it's a collection of small snippets of a whole bunch of different people's lives from this town in Maine. And I just, like, couldn't get enough of it because it was, like, people watching in book form. But it gave me an idea. I'm gonna run it by you guys. I think I can't do it, sort of. Craig, based on what you just told Angela, I had this idea. This is so insane, though. This is so insane. I'm gonna sound so crazy. I was like, could I, like, leave? I'd have to do this in a city. You can't do this in a driving situation. But, like, could I secretly follow a person all day?

[Craig Thomas]

No, stop, stop.

[Josh Radnor]

We're gonna stop you right there.

[Jenna Fischer]

And just observe all of what they do. Like, what did they buy at the store? Like, maybe I start, you know? Like, what are they. Oh, I wonder what they're gonna cook.

[Angela Kinsey]

Television and films. Jenna Fisher, officially.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my gosh. It's spinning headline. And it was all. The plan was all captured on the Podcast.

[Josh Radnor]

She confessed before she even did it.

[Jenna Fischer]

I can't. It just. It just. I am similarly like we're talking about. I am fascinated by the details of people.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, I mean, that's one of the great things about the Office. Like Josh was saying, you feel like you're sneaking in. Josh, I was so struck. I said, many similarities between our two shows and that I love. And I could say more, the fact that this ends on kind of like a couple of cliffhangers. Angela, the Ewan Dwight scene at the end. We have to talk about that scene. That was magnificent. We gotta get there at some point.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, it's so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

One thing that's very, very different about our two shows is we used music to be very emotionally manipulative to the audience. We're music nerds. Like I said, Carter and I, our connection was musical before it was writing words on a pa. Josh is a complete music nerd and would come and pitch us songs that we put on the show. I was really struck watching it again, watching the Office for the first time in a few years. The quietness, the fact that there's no music, the fact that the soundtrack is the sounds of an office. It's breathing, it's papers moving, it's keyboards clacking. There's something so hypnotic, wonderfully hypnotic that really draws you in. It really is voyeuristic. You really are there just spying on people. And it just works so profoundly well to make you're in those characters shoes and you're not being told how to feel. You're just there.

[Josh Radnor]

I heard about this thing that's taking off in Scandinavia and it's called Slow tv. Have you guys heard about this? It's basically like long, uninterrupted scenes, scenes where people are in nature. There's a story being told, but it's scenes in nature that are just allowed to. I think as things get so fast paced, people are longing for just slow it down, slow me down, slow this story down, Give me a moment to breathe. And I sometimes feel that after being on my phone too much, just like, oh, my God, take this thing away from me and let me just, I don't know, tell me, like a longer story or something. Can I say one thing? Just going back to what Jenna's criminal plot to follow this person, to follow.

[Jenna Fischer]

Somebody for a day. Yeah, please.

[Josh Radnor]

So have you guys ever heard of. I think it's called the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. It's this book that is such a good gift book. If you want to get a gift for someone or yourself. But this guy invented new words. Like, he took, like, what's it called when you take, like, part of one word and part of another.

[Angela Kinsey]

Was he Michael Scott?

[Josh Radnor]

No, but. But. But both our shows, that is another similarity.

[Craig Thomas]

We invent a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

There's a lot of new terms, but there's a. There's a definition in there of a word he calls. I think it's called sonder. And it's the feeling, the sudden realization that everyone passing you on the street and everyone in every car on the. On the highway that you're driving, each of those people has just as robust an interior life as you do and just as fascinating a story as you do. And I think there's a tendency, like, we all kind of the ego, main characters, us, right? And everyone else's background or everyone else is, like, in the way they're just traffic. Right? But, like, to really key into every single one of those cars if you really, you know, illegally followed them. Like Jenna's gonna do. Like, you'd find. You'd find something like, you'd find something golden, like something heart heartbreaking, something fascinating, some new weird thing. But, yeah, it's almost unbearable when you think about how complicated and complex that every individual is.

[Jenna Fischer]

Can I just say something to our office, ladies, audience, everyone, this definition of sonder that we have just been given from Josh Radner. These are the types of nuggets that you're going to get when you listen to how we made your mother. I was very nerdy with that thought for days, and this happens to me all the time. All the time. When I listen to your podcast, you offer something that I'm just like, oh, I'm going to digest that for so long. I freaking love that. I think all the time when I'm walking or driving, I'll see someone on the side of the road and I'll think, that is the only time in both of our lifetimes that we'll ever be in the same place at the same time. Me and that person, and I don't know their name. I don't know anything about them. And yet in this world of billions of people, there was a day when we were in the same place at the same time. And just how, like, magnificent is that?

[Craig Thomas]

You're like, if this guy doesn't catch me stalking him for the rest of this day, this will be the only moment our eyes make eye contact.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's so true, though. I might do it.

[Jenna Fischer]

You guys. I don't know this conversation.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you think there's Any world where you could just ask for permission before.

[Craig Thomas]

No.

[Jenna Fischer]

Because then it might be permission.

[Josh Radnor]

Formative.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, that's right.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know, then they might. They might choose healthier foods than they would feel unobserved.

[Josh Radnor]

I think they did this and was called Jury Duty. It was a series on television which.

[Jenna Fischer]

Was written by two of the officers.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, that's right. That's right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Created Mary and Jean. You could just have a life pivot where you become a detective.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, Angela, we want to be mom detectives. Maybe this is part of why.

[Josh Radnor]

That's a great show. Yeah, that's a great show.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you.

[Jenna Fischer]

We think so.

[Angela Kinsey]

We're solving crimes no one cares about. And we always have snacks and we.

[Jenna Fischer]

Almost never solve it. And the snacks at the end of every episode, our tagline is we may never know.

[Angela Kinsey]

We may never know.

[Josh Radnor]

That's it.

[Angela Kinsey]

There's no payoff, Craig. Sorry.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a new thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

There's a lot of setup with no payoff, believe me.

[Craig Thomas]

Just stretch it out. We did nine years of stretching it out.

[Jenna Fischer]

There is nothing worse than not having the tools to make impactful work. For me, that is usually due to my lack of technical know how. I don't know how to do all the snazzy stuff. But Canva can make that a lot easier. You can put all your workflow in one place, starting with the presentation. Then you could, like add in a whiteboard. You could drop in a video. You don't have to jump between programs and tabs. You can also invite your team to collaborate on any design. So rather than like having to chase people down with multiple email threads, you can have real time collaboration. You can share ideas and visualize projects. You can get their input right away. So whether you work in a team of two like me and Angela or a team of 2000, Canva lets you bring your big ideas to life as fast as you can think of them. Put imagination to [e-mail] all right, we're going to talk for a second about Masterclass and we've talked about it before. Have we talked about the fact that Mindy Kaling has her class?

[Angela Kinsey]

I know, right?

[Jenna Fischer]

And Amy Poehler.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. I'm on their website right now looking at it. I mean, they have an acting and performing arts category. They have so many categories. Art and design, business and entrepreneurship, community and government, film and tv, food and drink, games and digital media, health and wellness, music, science, technology. They have so many categories.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know what I like about it is the access to these people who are at the top of their game in whatever their industry is.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

Plans start at $10 a month, you are billed annually, and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] OfficeLadies that's.

[Jenna Fischer]

15% [e-mail] OfficeLadies masterclass.com OfficeLadies you guys.

[Angela Kinsey]

We have talked about Indeed before because it is such a great hiring platform. Because hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job. There's lots of folks willing to take the job, but what you need is the right person with the right background who can actually move your business forward.

[Jenna Fischer]

The cool thing about Indeed is that you can get your job post seen even on other sites. So you really give your job the best chance of being seen with indeed's sponsored jobs because they help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can finally drive in the results that you need. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed sponsored jobs and listeners.

[Angela Kinsey]

Of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com.

[Jenna Fischer]

Officeladies just go to indeed.com officeladies right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com officeladies terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed. Well, I want to talk a little bit about how you guys shot the show because the Office and How I Met yout Mother, they both started around the same time. And I feel like both of our shows did a new kind of thing. Like the Office did the whole documentary style, messy camera work kind of spy shot thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

No audience.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, no audience. Your show was shot in the three camera style, but was not filmed in front of an audience. But it had a laugh track. But also you did some single camera stuff. How did it all work?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, we created Carter and I, Carter Bayes, co creator of the show with me. We really didn't know what we were doing. That's the biggest thing we stumbled in really not knowing how to do this. We weren't like these grizzled old sitcom hacks kind of guys. We had come from late night television. We'd worked on an animated show, a couple short lived sitcoms. We really had never written a multi camera sitcom. So we wrote this pilot that we thought was great because it moved. It was lots of short scenes. It popped around, it played with time. And we gave it to our producer and she was like, this is unproducible in front of an audience full of human beings. This is how we hope you understand that you cannot do this like friends. We're. Can't we just keep the audience for a long time and do a lot of pre shoots? And they were like, it will be a hostage situation. The audience will just be there for three days. They'll be trying to escape. You have to break this down in a different way. And Pam Freeman and Susie Greenberg, our brilliant director and producer who did the entire series, really came up with a way to, over three days, shoot the show kind of to look like a sitcom and kind of to look at times like a single count. We went out onto New York street, we went on locations, we did lots of. Lots of fun sort of cinematic storytelling. And we really let ourselves think about it as not just a half hour sitcom on cbs, which again, we were. Our lead in was King of Queens when we launched, and our lead out was Two and a Half Men. And we were such a weird black sheep. Our numbers were not nearly as big as the show before us and the show after us, which means you're the dip. You're like the hammock. You're like the. You're bringing the whole ratings of the night down. But we were always familiar with that as well. Oh, yeah, you know, that move. But we were great in 18 to 34, which CBS was looking for. They were not doing great in that younger category. And we eventually, over those first few years, started to become like their number one show in 18 to 34. And they realized, well, not as many people are watching this as watch these other shows, but more young people are watching this than watch those other shows. And that was our survival.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, I love how it shot even now. And I think that's one of the reasons, if I were to guess, why it holds up so well, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, you're a little ahead of.

[Jenna Fischer]

Your time in that way.

[Josh Radnor]

Brian Eno, you know, the ambient music pioneer Brian Eno, he has this thing about how new forms are created when the old form can't contain what the bigger expression is. So, for instance, distortion in a guitar was because the amps got blown out. And then it became the sound that everyone was actually chasing. So now you have, like, you're trying to mimic the sound of blowing out an amp and that becomes a whole new genre. But it was actually a kind of mistake or something that couldn't contain it. So it's almost like Carter and Craig's naivete actually created a new form because they didn't know. They kind of knew.

[Craig Thomas]

We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know we couldn't do it. Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I feel like I saw it in other things, too, after watching your show. Especially, like, when you would have a character say something, and then it would cut to a different time to the other person reacting. You know, like you would sort of set up like Ted would say something, and then it would cut to Robin's reaction to Lily or things like that. And it zipped along so fun. And I feel like I've seen that in movies, but I feel like the first time I saw it really was watching your show.

[Craig Thomas]

Most multi cameras don't move that way. I love that the Office moves that way. I feel like we should say, like, I'm a huge fan of the Office. I watched every single episode of the Office. I watch it door to door. I'm such a huge fan. I wanted to ask all of you this question. You too, Josh, because I don't know this the answer for you. Were you guys able to. While you were on tv, while you were on the Office? You're shooting the Office. You come home. Do you watch other sitcoms? And I'm honored, Jenna, that you were watching How I Met yout Mother, I guess. Which I never really knew that you were at that time until now. I would come home from working on How I Met yout Mother all day, and the only show, the only comedy I would watch is the Office. I love the Office, and my wife and I watch every episode. I could not watch any other comedies because my brain would start to compare to them. Ah, they're a bigger hit than us. Or we're better than that. I think we do this thing better than that one, but this thing we don't do as well. So I was not able to just enjoy watching comedies. I would watch, like, dark hour dramas and, like, weird movies. I could not watch another comedy except the Office. I loved and I watched in real time at the moment. But what is that for you guys? Were you guys able to enjoy sitcoms while you were in one?

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, I was.

[Craig Thomas]

You were?

[Josh Radnor]

I mean.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, yeah. I watched Community. I watched Will and grace. I watched 30 Rock. Loved 30 Rock, Arrested Development. Yeah, I love comedy. So I was happy to come home and watch more people doing great comedy.

[Craig Thomas]

That's great. I don't know what's wrong with me that I couldn't do it.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, you're a creator. You're looking at it from a creator's point of view.

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't know why this is so. I look back now and I'm like, what was I doing? I was still doing improv theater. In the evenings, I would have a show.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, I'm like, what am I doing? I remember those early seasons. I'd be so tired because we'd get done, and then I'd be like, I got a nine o' clock show.

[Craig Thomas]

I thought I'd go to comedy now.

[Josh Radnor]

You were doing the Office to support your improv habit.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, I was, but yeah, and then I would watch shows here and there, too, but I wasn't afraid to watch them, though. I was enjoying it, for sure. I felt like I was part of this creative community. And we would. You know, I'd watch an episode of Community, like the show Community, and then we would have to go and be backstage with them at some NBC upfront thing, and I'd be like, look at us. It's like back in theater days when you're backstage with the different shows. And it felt. It felt smaller to me in the beginning because maybe because there wasn't streaming, maybe because we were on this tiny lot. We weren't even on a major studio lot.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know, Josh, I have a random tangent. Quickly. How did we meet? Did we meet at one of those, like, events? Here's my memory. My memory is that one day I was invited to do a reading of your screenplay at your place, right? And I went and I did it, and it was so good. And my memory is that that is where I met you. And I don't know if, like, an agent set that up or something, but it was the most wonderful evening.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, thank you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Reading with other actors your great screenplay. And you were so nice. I feel like you played guitar for us.

[Josh Radnor]

No, I didn't play guitar back then. That's a.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's an inserted memory. Inserted memor. But was music playing music?

[Josh Radnor]

Probably. I was so excited.

[Jenna Fischer]

You had a beautiful place. I remember that. I was like, this is so stylish. Is that where we met?

[Josh Radnor]

My memory is I do remember you doing that reading, but I think I had met you at, like, an event. And because I had met you at the event, I think I felt comfortable. Well, probably not super comfortable, but comfortable enough to either track you down or I can't remember how I got a hold of you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Same.

[Josh Radnor]

But you did end up in my living room reading my screenplay, which you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Then went on to make.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

It was more please. Right?

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah. I then for years I think we would just see each other at like the night before party, like that kind of thing. Like the Emmys and the. We were just on the circuit at the same time back when those things were interesting to go to.

[Jenna Fischer]

Circuit buddies.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, circuit buddies.

[Josh Radnor]

But I felt like the whole. I mean, I knew Mindy a little bit before from New York, like theater days. And I knew Rain because I went to nyu, to the grad acting program. And when I was there, he was directing. Did you guys ever see the new Bozina, that clown show he directed?

[Jenna Fischer]

No, but I wish I had.

[Josh Radnor]

It was genius, like so incredible. And he directed that. So he was always at NYU when I was there, so I knew him. But I always felt connected to your guys show because one, we were on the air at the same time and going through some of the strange, like life altering, weird vertigo that anyone goes through. But also I felt like you guys had like theater roots. Like there were a lot of like theater actors in your show. You know, there was a. And even when I was watching Customer Survey, like I was like, this is like such like old timey. Like the fake call between Michael and the buttlicker scene. The buttlic scene.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, William Buttlicker.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's so good.

[Josh Radnor]

That is like. That might as well be like Shakespearean clowns or like Commedia dell'. Arte. Like it's such like classic. And then they start taking it very serious. The stakes get really high and there's literally zero stakes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Like a million.

[Josh Radnor]

Like so old timey three stooge, like Shakespeare clown, like just in. And we do that. Like some of the Barney Ted stuff could get like that, you know, in our show. And I always love that feeling that you're connected to like actors from the like 16th century or something. Like, like this is an an. You know, I always love that feeling.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

That's how we met.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's how we met.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's so funny to me though that you mentioned that Barney and Ted could be sort of like Jim and Dwight in that scene. Because I don't know if you've seen this online, but there's a whole article that says the office characters in their How I Met yout Mother counterpart.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my God.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow, that's amazing.

[Angela Kinsey]

And they do say Barney is Dwight and that Ted is Jim.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You know, it was so funny when I was watching the episode. The looks Jenna that you and John get to give to the camera were like looks that Ted would have given to the Camera. Were the camera there? Do you know what I'm saying?

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. And if Ted was allowed.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah. If Ted was allowed that convention, he would constantly be looking at the camera like Jim and Pam. You know, he just. It was like the camera wasn't there. Although we have this theory, we're working on a theory that Barney was the only character who knew he was in a sitcom. Because the way Neil walks into a room sometimes it's like he's expecting entrance applause.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, this is true.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, it's. Barney and Dwight are so similar because they are so deeply living in their own delusional narrative. They have created and curated their own world that they're just utterly inhabiting and like they intersect with other people, but they're the main character in this whole other world that it's not the real world. And that's why there's such fun characters to write and why Neil and Rain were so amazing. Cause they just committed so a billion percent to those characters realities. They're just in a different movie than everybody else.

[Josh Radnor]

And they have their own code of ethics and rules that they honor. Like they live by them.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is what the Internet says about them. Are you ready?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

It says this. Both characters are defined by their over the top personalities. Rigid adherence to their own elaborate rule books and pursuit of power and success, though with vastly different moral codes.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's eerie how many. I think there's so many similarities between these two shows. Cause like we had a couple on the show that was a really lovely, cute couple that was still funny when they were together as a couple. They didn't need to be fighting all the time. They were funny as a couple. You enjoyed watching them. They didn't need a problem every week. They didn't need an argument every week. In fact, fans would get upset when there would be trouble between these two characters, which I know, Jim and Pam. It was like people did not want to see too much go wrong between Jim and Pam and Marshall and Lily on our show, Jason and Allison, they were a beloved couple when we were all on. I really do feel like we all went to TV college at the same time because we were like. And I felt it very deep connection to your show because it really was almost the only sitcom I could watch. I don't know again, what's wrong with me. Talk to my therapist about this later. But you guys, I felt such a connection to Jim and Pam because Marshall and Lily on the show are based on my wife and I. We went to college, we met, I was 18. She was, like, 16 and a half because she had skipped a year in high school. And we were.

[Josh Radnor]

These And a half is really important.

[Craig Thomas]

I know. A half.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, it is.

[Craig Thomas]

We were babies, and we became. We were the old married couple by our mid-20s. We were grandparents compared to all these single people out there. And so Marshall and Lily are so close to my heart. So I think part of the reason I could watch the Office and just love it was I loved Jim and Pam so much. It was such a. Like, I loved their connection so much. And it's really hard to write a happy couple that gets along and make it funny. I think you guys really, really did that. And then there's this whole thing where Dwight is kind of Barney. There's a lot of Jim and Ted overlaps. It struck me, watching this episode of the Office, how many similarities and similarities in tone, too, where things start off as little jokes, and then by the end of the episode, there's this stealthy switcheroo where there's a great dramatic twist that comes out of some little seed that's been planted. The little Bluetooth earpieces are a fun little bit and a fun running gimmick. And at the end, they create this huge dramatic moment.

[Jenna Fischer]

That is so true. I love that.

[Angela Kinsey]

So I have a question, Josh. If you were in the scene and you had an idea for a line, like, were you able to just say to the writer on set or Craig or someone, hey, can I try this alt or what if I spin it this way? Did you have that sort of collaboration?

[Josh Radnor]

Yes, for sure. Like, I mean, one of the. I think we've talked about this, Craig, but one of the only ones that I'm sure made it on the air was I had to drop off a letter that I then regretted putting in the mailbox, and I climbed into the mailbox and then got stuck in the mailbox was that.

[Jenna Fischer]

I remember this episode. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And. But I asked either Craig or Carter, whoever was on set, I said. Because nailed it was a catchphrase. So I said, can I just drop it in the mail and say mailed it instead of nailed it. Right. And that ended up. I think that ended up in the episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that was in.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But most of the time, I knew how tightly scripted the things were. There wasn't. It was like a Jenga, you know, it was like the moment you fattened up something, it would be like it was so dependent upon the rhythm and the quickness of the thing that it never felt like we have all the Time in the world. You know. Because the shooting of it was always. The schedule was always very tight as it always is. But we didn't have those kind of breaths that you guys had. It was a different paced show.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And you wanted to leave room for those emotional moments at the end. Like the end of this episode has some moments where clearly room was left. Like Angela. Just to get to. I love the scene with you and Dwight at the end and everything that's going on between the two of you. As that farm is booked is where the wedding's gonna be. There's two great ticking clock like little ticking time bombs that are started at the end of this episode. Two little. What's gonna happen with Jim and Pam? This guy's clearly flirting with her. Or at least there's this enticement. Is she going to move to New York? Is she gonna stay in New York? Right. And then there's this other. And I really didn't see it coming. I forgot this happened. The Dwight Angela stuff is this other like Pip. And a little ticking time bomb has been said. Like a little fuse has. And it's two of them at the very end of the episode that carry you into the next episode. We tried to do that as often as we could on How I Met yout Mother. Just cause you had to wait a week. Right. People weren't binging these shows. You had people tune in one week from tonight for the exciting next part of this story. What was that? That scene with the two of you was amazing. You and Rayn in that scene. Just making the deepest eye contact of all time. What was that scene?

[Angela Kinsey]

Late to shoot.

[Craig Thomas]

But it's very intense. It was great.

[Angela Kinsey]

Very intense. A lot with just a look on our show. And so much of our show was re. And that definitely for the supporting cast. Because you would have cast members that were making a lot of the action and the big moments happen. And then the rest of us were reacting to it. And for that love triangle with Dwight and Andy. It was so delicious. I loved every single second of it. I was like give me more. What else? What else can I be a part of here? And that was really fun for a supporting cast when they got to be sort of in the main story. But I loved it. I loved Angela. Always loved Dwight. That's how I played it. We talk. And Josh and I'm sure you have this process too. But Jen and I both had our own story for our character that was part of our truth in whatever moment. So if Angela just isn't always Just a bitch. There's many layers to her. And so my truth was, I always loved him. And he put my cat in a freezer, and it took me a long time to get over that. And poor Andy was just. Just sort of in the middle, you know? But I loved those scenes.

[Jenna Fischer]

Can I tell you my two favorite things from that final scene that I just love so much? Okay, so the first one is, I love how it's shot. I love how the camera is singles on Angela and Dwight, and there's all the eye contact. But then very slowly, you see Andy creeping into Angela's single. Cause he's. And it's just like, it makes me laugh every time. And the other thing is, I love how when Dwight is showing them the book of, like, what can happen when they get married at Schrute Farms. There's a photo of a couple being married while standing in their own graves. And that is a callback to, like, some talking head that Dwight had about how Schrutes always get married standing in their own graves.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Jenna Fischer]

So this just photograph is just a quick callback to that. But then in the finale episode of the Office, Angela and Dwight get married at Schrute Farms, standing in their own graves.

[Craig Thomas]

That's amazing.

[Jenna Fischer]

And I just love the symmetry of that, of the 1, 2, 3. And you had to wait nine years for that to pay off, but it does.

[Angela Kinsey]

I felt like our writers were so good at that.

[Craig Thomas]

We're in this incredibly small group of people who can say, we got to do that. You got to do one thing in one year, another thing to keep it alive three years later or whatever. And then four years later, however many years later, you get to pay it off in this completely different way.

[Jenna Fischer]

You guys did that all the time.

[Craig Thomas]

We got to do that. We really got to do that. We did keep track of that. We had a running list of things we had to pay off like that.

[Angela Kinsey]

There's another one in this episode, too. It's Kelly at the very beginning, says Michael's telling everyone he's engaged to Holly. And she's like, I got my dress. I hope it's okay. It's white. Which is. She wears a white dress to Phyllis's wedding. You know, so it's like all the ways that our writers kept track of.

[Jenna Fischer]

That Kelly has been waiting to wear white to somebody's wedding to steal their thunder.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it's like that thing, you know, they say in the theater, like, if there's a gun. If you see a gun in the first act, it has to go off the third one.

[Jenna Fischer]

Check off the gun.

[Craig Thomas]

Check off the gun.

[Josh Radnor]

But this is like, if you see something in the third season, it has to go off in the ninth season. Like, this is like really playing the long game. And I love that I didn't have to be the storehouse of wisdom of, like, I love that there were a team of writers that were keeping track of that stuff because I would have lost track of all that.

[Angela Kinsey]

I loved your whole slap runner. You know, it's like, I just love that that's one of those things, Josh, that we can't do in real life, right? We can't have the slap bet and get to use the slaps whenever we want them. And just like all the times that, like, Jim and Dwight slapped each other, just those ridiculous moments.

[Craig Thomas]

Can I tell you something? Slap bet was from real life. Carter and his high school. It was the key word, high school. Carter and one of his friends in high school had a long running series of slap bets going and would just slap the crap out of each other to pay them off. But I think you have to be in high school for that to work. I think that ends at graduation.

[Josh Radnor]

But before we finish, I just want to say, besides the guacamole line, which is an all timer, Dwight saying to Kelly, you juke the stats. Cupcake is also one of my favorites.

[Craig Thomas]

He's in his own movie.

[Josh Radnor]

Unbelievably good line. That was when I wrote down, he's.

[Craig Thomas]

In his own movie.

[Josh Radnor]

He's got a cupcake.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, guys, thank you for joining us.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you for having us on.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, thank you.

[Craig Thomas]

So great to be with you guys today and in general, thank you for having us on the team.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, we are so thrilled. And we know Office Ladies is just gonna love, love your show. You're doing such a fantastic job. We feel honored to have you be part of our network.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you, guys.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, thanks. Yeah, this is just. I don't know if people know how this started, but I just called Jenna to talk about rewatch podcasts to see if maybe she wanted to hop on our show as a guest and talk about the weirdness of playing one character for a decade and all this stuff. And then she said, who's producing you guys? And I said, well, Craig and I are basically doing the, you know, we're doing this with a small team on our own. And she said, well, Angela and I are kind of expanding our empire and we'd love to, but.

[Jenna Fischer]

Did I say I did not.

[Josh Radnor]

You didn't say empire.

[Angela Kinsey]

Did you say But I like.

[Jenna Fischer]

I like it.

[Josh Radnor]

She was twisting a fake mustache, and she said, we're trying to.

[Angela Kinsey]

As she was following you, I was like.

[Josh Radnor]

I turned around.

[Craig Thomas]

I was like.

[Jenna Fischer]

Josh, I know. I know what you've been up to, Thomas.

[Angela Kinsey]

I've been following you both as you're going through his trash.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it was. It was really like. It was such a. It was just one of those things that, like, oh, yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. And then I think you guys listened to an episode or two, and then there was a much more formal invitation to join you guys. And we. And it wasn't like we didn't have to deliberate. It was like, oh, no, no, no. These are exactly who we want to be aligned with. And we just love what you guys have been up to, and we're just thrilled to be working alongside you. So thank you so much.

[Jenna Fischer]

One last thing before we go, Craig. We want to give a plug for your book. It's called that's Not How It Happened. You gave us advanced copies. We're both reading it and loving it. It's a beautiful book. Do you want to tell us about it?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's inspired in part by my own family and by my journey raising my. So a rare genetic syndrome where he has some learning disabilities and some health challenges. And some of that material combined with some of my years of working and writing in Hollywood. And both of those elements are in this book. It is a book. The sort of quickie plot line is the mom and a family kind of like my own, where there's a. And it's told from four perspectives. A mom, a dad, and two kids.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love that.

[Craig Thomas]

I love hearing it.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's very.

[Craig Thomas]

Perspective shifty, which is sort of similar to both of our shows in various ways. Right? It's. There's some office and hymn in here, here. But yeah, the mom has written a memoir about raising her son who has down syndrome. In the book, who is now a young adult facing that huge question of what does an adult life look like for a young adult with a disability who's getting outside of school and what's next? And it's. A lot of parents like me call that the cliff. School ends and then what happens after the cliff? And this is sort of the novel's about that. And the novel. The mom has written a memoir about raising her son to this point. And Hollywood comes and knock in to make a movie out of the memoir. And in the process of trying to get this movie made of their lives, it Raises all kinds of questions about whose story is this? How do we all see our lives? How do four members of a family tell their own story? It's funny. It fits into a lot of what we've been talking about on this episode. Right? Everyone's in their own story. Everyone's the main character in their own story. The book is called that's not How It Happened. Because you're constantly switching in and out of these four perspectives into these characters shoes and out of them to hear what they think the story is and how the next person that's going to speak sees it completely differently. And so it's a comedy. It's a dramedy, I guess you would call it. And it's my favorite thing I've ever written besides How I Met yout Mother. And it means so much to me that you guys are reading it and would support it. So thank you.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. Yes. You guys get a copy. That's not how it happened. I'm gonna put a link in our stories.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's out now.

[Josh Radnor]

Can confirm that it's an incredibly fun, wonderful read. You know, when your dear friend hands you and says, hey, will you read my novel? There's always a little nervousness, like, uh, oh, I hope I like it.

[Craig Thomas]

This is too long to be bad.

[Josh Radnor]

This is gonna be really bad. I was just delighted by every page of this book. I think it's so, such a wonderful story. It's so moving, so funny. There's not a dull moment.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just, thank you, guys.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a page turner tear jerker. It's fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

It means the world to me coming from you guys.

[Angela Kinsey]

So much heart.

[Craig Thomas]

Also, I'm bringing the lead here. Josh Radner and Cobie Smulders read the two parent roles in the audiobook. The four perspectives are the two parents.

[Jenna Fischer]

Is that right?

[Craig Thomas]

And then two kids. So How I Met your mother. Fans, please know there's a little hymn love in the audiobook of this novel.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, I love that. Well, we'll definitely share all of this with our audience. We are just so thrilled, Josh and Craig, to have you on the Office Ladies Network. You guys go listen to How We Made youe Mother podcast right now. Streaming wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, I loved that.

[Angela Kinsey]

So did I.

[Jenna Fischer]

Also, I loved the super fan of Customer Survey and Lady. I feel like since we didn't get to talk about some of the new stuff that we discovered, I want to do a full breakdown of that episode and we'll share all of our tidbits.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I'D like that too. I mean, you and I really dug into it and then we were so excited to talk to with Josh and Craig. We didn't really get into it as much as I think we thought we were going to.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, let's do it and then we'll put it out next week so it'll be like a really nice companion for today's episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, I like that. And everyone, be sure and check out our interview on How We Made youe Mother. It's dropping as a bonus episode on the How We Made youe Mother feed tomorrow.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, go there now and click subscribe so you don't miss it. It's really fun. We watched their pilot episode and then we chat all about it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. All right, you guys have a great day. Don't be a buttlicker.

[Jenna Fischer]

We'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fischer]

Our excellent executive producer is Cassie Jerkins, our audio engineer is Sam Kieffer, and our associate producer is Ainslie Bubaco.

[Angela Kinsey]

Odyssey's executive producer is Leah Reese Dennis.

[Jenna Fischer]

Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Cree Bratton.