Introducing How We Made Your Mother

Summary

Office Ladies: "Introducing How We Made Your Mother"

October 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Office Ladies, hosted by Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey, shines the spotlight on the debut of How We Made Your Mother, the latest addition to the Office Ladies Network. The new podcast, hosted by Josh Radnor (Ted from How I Met Your Mother) and co-creator Craig Thomas, embarks on a comprehensive rewatch and behind-the-scenes exploration of How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM). The episode offers an energetic welcome to Josh and Craig, a look into the origins of the podcast network collaboration, and a deep-dive breakdown of “Where Were We?”, the first episode of HIMYM’s second season.

---

Main Segments and Key Discussion Points

1. Introduction and Collaboration Announcement

• Jenna and Angela excitedly welcome Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas, officially introducing them and their podcast to the Office Ladies Network.
  • “You have found How We Made Your Mother. What is going on here? Have we been hacked by another rewatch podcast?” (Angela, 01:39)
• The Office Ladies Network aims to foster a warm and inclusive fan community, echoing the support, humor, and storytelling both shows are known for.

---

2. Origins of the Office Ladies Network Collaboration

• Josh Radnor shares how he reached out to Jenna Fischer for rewatch podcast advice, which quickly blossomed into an invitation to join the network.
  • “I called Jenna Fisher, my old pal… I was reaching out… if she had any advice for us. But also more specifically, I wanted to see if she would come on our podcast to talk about the strangeness of being, you know, a decade or so of your life being thought of as someone you're not…” (Josh, 06:36)
  • Jenna instantly expresses interest in bringing the show onto their network, leading to “sounds unheard” partnership—without even hearing the full podcast first!
• Both teams discuss their mutual respect and geek out about crossovers:
  • “When we were growing up, crossover episodes were…like Laverne and Shirley would show up on Happy Days…We’re doing it now with our rewatch podcasts.” (Josh, 08:41)

---

3. Kicking Off Season Two: 'Where Were We?'

Context and Episode Recap

• Producer Alec Lev introduces the HIMYM episode "Where Were We?", which aired September 18, 2006. (10:30)
• Josh and Craig break down the plot bridge from season one (the heartwrenching breakup between Marshall and Lily) and the emotional stakes in the writers’ room.
• Meta TV Talk: The creative juggling of TV’s old rules—in this case, needing to align story arcs with the real-life calendar:
  • “There was this kind of common understanding… that you’ve got to come in basically, in the season so you can catch up to your Thanksgiving episode and your Halloween episode and your Christmas episode…” (Craig, 12:45)
• They reflect on the show’s choice to keep serialized, emotionally-driven storytelling, going against network advice.
  • “We had been advised… to be less serialized in between the two seasons…We did not agree with that advice and we didn’t really take it.” (Craig, 11:04)

---

Scene Analysis and Behind-the-Scenes Stories

Tracking Marshall’s Summer and Lily's Absence

• The episode inventively tracks Marshall’s emotional spiral over the summer after Lily’s departure.
• The “credit card bill” device becomes a mystery element, driving Marshall’s obsession and the episode’s structure.
  • “The idea of just these pieces of evidence of what she’s been up to… that’s going to steer the second half of that episode.” (Craig, 18:25)

Ted and Marshall Friendship Arc

• Detailed discussion of the challenge and beauty in supporting a friend through heartbreak:
  • “It’s a funny thing when your friend is down… you have to, like, put on your sad face…You can’t be this happy around this person I love right now.” (Josh, 19:19)
  • Emphasis on the moment Ted finally delivers tough love:
    • “You’ll never get her back or move on like this. … That was Ted’s arc… to start off as the caretaker and then becomes the one who kind of really tries to shake him out of it in the end.” (Craig, 20:15)

Barney's Comic Relief and Literary Parody

• Barney’s big speech, a comedic riff inspired by The Grapes of Wrath, is dissected.
  • “A fun fact about that speech is it is kind of cribbed from the Grapes of Wrath. …What about that, except it’s Barney people?” (Craig, 25:09)
• Iconic Barney one-liner emerges:
  • “When I get sad, I stop being sad and just be awesome instead. True story.” (Barney, repeated by Josh, 35:38)
  • Both hosts note its catchphrase-status and hidden emotional depth:
    • “It's also... a kind of monument to repression. Like, it's not a quite a healthy thing, but like growing up in the Midwest, like, I get it.” (Josh, 36:03)

Physical Comedy and Character Quirks

• Neil Patrick Harris’s legendary mime work for Barney's “suicide” gags is lovingly recalled:
  • “His precision and his ability to mimic things and turn on a dime… just incredibly specific, virtuosic things.” (Josh, 33:10)
• New elements of Robin’s character (her “gun enthusiast” status) are explored for comedy and depth.

Use of Music and Editing

• The team discusses emotional storytelling through song, particularly the cliffhanger ending set to “Boys Don’t Cry” by Grant Lee Phillips.
  • “Pushing past that table of our gang to find Lily in that window… I just remember in the edit room getting chills when we were putting that together and feeling like this is gonna work…” (Craig, 51:10)

---

4. Writers’ Room and Production Insights

• The importance of mining personal stories for authenticity:
  • “Everyone had their breakup story… that sort of summer passing… everyone in the writers room had stuff on that.” (Craig, 23:08)
• Interplay between improvisation and callback in writing:
  • The team occasionally revisited jokes established seasons earlier, creating a rewarding experience for fans who rewatch:
    • Example: Marshall’s “I was so high I thought you were the Dean” line, which is later filmed outright. (Josh, 48:53)
• Set changes and continuity challenges:
  • “We got a note… Season one… looks a little dark… We decided to just brighten everything up… We did it hoping no one would notice. … Why is the couch different?!” (Craig, 59:31)

---

5. Fan Letters and Community Reflections

• Listeners are encouraged to submit questions, and the show spotlights a letter from Sophie in Germany (65:57), whose story about finding hope in HIMYM during uncertain times prompts a heartfelt reply.
  • Memorable moment:
    • “You are the wisest 15 year old I think I've ever met. We're really honored the show has meant that to you.” (Craig, 67:32)
    • Josh offers: “I think that as you demonstrate in your letter, you can hold many things in your awareness at any given time. … We can hold all of that. … I think there is something political about being a good friend and showing up for people and being loyal and those things are needed in our society. … All sins are forgiven in New York City.” (Josh, 67:43 – 69:43)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jenna on Josh’s catchphrase:
  • "I love it when Josh says, I am the I. In How I Met Your Mother." (02:40)
• Angela on the podcast’s vibe:
  • "The warmth, the kindness, the encouragement that their community has is absolutely Office Lady's community." (03:17)
• Josh on tough friendship moments:
  • “It can be very hard sometimes to speak capital T truth to a friend who's really got their story set.” (21:55)
• Barney’s classic line:
  • “When I get sad, I stop being sad and just be awesome instead. True story.” (35:38)
• On narrative structure:
  • “There’s so much pleasure to be had in the ride and in the storytelling and in the little mini mysteries along the way.” (Josh, 31:39)
• On the intersection of personal and societal anxiety (Sophie’s letter):
  • “How I Met Your Mother comforts me in a way nothing else does. It taught me how important friendships are, that I have to let things change, and that every phase of your life is important and will lead you to something.” (Listener Sophie, 65:59)
• Craig and Josh’s response:
  • “I think we can do all those things. I don't think you have to feel bad about any of that… Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.” (Josh, 69:30)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Announcement and Intro to How We Made Your Mother: 01:38 – 04:17
• Josh & Craig on Joining Office Ladies Network: 06:33 – 08:59
• Season Two Episode Recap (“Where Were We?”): 10:27 – 20:59
• Friendship/Tough Love Theme: 19:19 – 22:18
• Barney’s Grapes of Wrath Speech: 25:00 – 27:50
• Physical Comedy with Barney: 32:29 – 33:30
• Writer’s Room Insights: 23:08 – 23:42, 48:53 – 49:17
• Fan Letter from Sophie: 65:59 – 67:43
• Emotional Cliffhanger & Music: 51:10 – 52:26
• Showrunner Q&A: 53:23 – 65:57

---

Episode Tone and Style

The episode sparkles with characteristic warmth, wit, and a deep sense of nostalgia. The casual banter and fond ribbing between all hosts, plus generous inside jokes and insightful fandom reflections, demonstrate the camaraderie both within and between the two podcast teams. Josh and Craig bring a self-deprecating humor (“aging aggressively”, “get on with it!”), as well as a sincere appreciation for the writing process and impact of HIMYM. Emotional honesty—especially around friendship, heartbreak, and community—is foregrounded, keeping the tone relatable and hopeful.

---

Summary

A warm, funny, and insightful crossover episode that not only welcomes How We Made Your Mother to the Office Ladies Network but also dives deep into the creative process and emotional resonance of HIMYM. With inside stories, sharp writing commentary, and genuine listener engagement, this is a must-listen for fans of either show—or anyone interested in TV’s power to comfort, connect, and entertain.

Transcript

[Jenna Fischer]

Support for Office ladies comes from Sixpenny. You know, your home can be many things. It can be chaotic, it can be joyful, it can be serene as well. But choosing beautiful pieces to live with in your home is a great way to make your home into a space you love.

[Angela Kinsey]

We want to tell you about Sixpenny. Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with extraordinarily comfortable slip covered furniture for living room, dining room, sleeping spaces. It is completely customizable, it is made by hand at their own factory and oh my gosh, you have to go to the website sixpenny. Com. It's beautiful.

[Jenna Fischer]

Sixpenny furniture is also both high quality and high value. And since launching in 2017, Sixpenny has been featured in Architectural Digest, the New York Times, Wirecutter Time, and many more.

[Angela Kinsey]

Visit sixpenny.com officeladies for a leisurely browse through their impeccably designed pieces and perhaps even order yourself some free swatches.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

You buy a pair of socks, that's two socks. You buy a pair of Bombas socks, that's four socks.

[Angela Kinsey]

Because one purchased is one donated. Socks are the number one most requested clothing item in homeless shelters. So when you buy a pair of super comfortable Bombas socks, you're also donating a pair. Bombas customers have powered over 150 million donations.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

So Bombas would like to thank you.

[Angela Kinsey]

150 million times, but we only have like 30 seconds. Go to bombus.com and use code audio for 20 off your first purchase. That's B O M b-s.com and use code Audio at checkout. Hello everybody.

[Craig Thomas]

Hi there.

[Angela Kinsey]

So you've opened your podcast app and here in your office Lady's feed you have found how we made your mother. What is going on here? Have we been hacked by another Rewatch podcast? Angela, are the machines finally rising up against us?

[Jenna Fischer]

No, not yet anyway. Sit tight, survivalist lady. All is right in the world for now. And we have some big news. If you checked out our episode from October 15th, you can hear the whole story. But in short, you probably know that we have launched the Office Ladies Network and I'm sure you already have been listening to Lazy Genius. Thank you very much with the amazing Kendra Adachi.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, well, we have now added our first Rewatch podcast to the network and it is how we made your mother. Looking back at nine seasons of How I Met yout Mother. The podcast is hosted by Josh Radner, who of course played Ted on the show along with Craig Thomas, who is one of the co Creators of How I Met yout Mother.

[Jenna Fischer]

I love it when Josh says, I am the I. In How I Met yout Mother.

[Josh Radnor]

I play the I.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well. Josh and Craig do a deep dive not only into the characters and plots of each episode, but they are also taking a close look at the issues the show confronted. Love and loss, commitment, rejection, friendship, careers, everything.

[Angela Kinsey]

That is honestly my favorite part of this podcast is when they take a storyline about one of these topics and then they discuss it. They discuss that theme and why they made the choices they made to have the characters do the things they did. Ugh, it's amazing. But they also talk about what it felt like to be in an early to mid 2000s long running network sitcom, which is a topic, of course, very close to our Office Ladies Hearts. And also close to our Office Ladies Hearts is the community that they have built for their podcast. Everyone. It is going to feel familiar to you. The warmth, the kindness, the encouragement that their community has is absolutely Office Lady's community.

[Jenna Fischer]

It so is. And I love hearing from their fans. You really hear them in each episode. So you guys, they have just finished the first season of the podcast covering the first season of the show.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. And now we are bringing you the very first episode of their second season. We love it. We think you'll love it. If you want to binge season one, you can go subscribe to How We Made youe Mother. But you can also start right here. Honestly, this episode is terrific and you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Can listen wherever you get your podcast or you can head to their website How We Made your Mother dot com. And of course you can find them on socials at How We Made your Mother. And here we go. We are proud to present the newest member of the Office Ladies Network, How We Made youe Mother with Josh Radner and Craig Thomas.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hello, this is Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey from the Office Ladies Podcast in Los Angeles.

[Jenna Fischer]

And something we love about How We Made youe Mother is the amazing community of this show. The fans and people that write in. We think you guys are awesome.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I love when Josh and Craig get silly. I mean, I love all the behind the scenes stories, but my favorite is when Josh suddenly starts quoting Einstein or some ancient philosopher and then he and Craig basically break down the meaning of love or the power of friendship or forgiveness or you name it. But I often find myself feeling a little lighter, a little more hopeful after listening. And that's a pretty special thing to be able to do.

[Jenna Fischer]

And that's why we're thrilled to be adding the show to Our Office Ladies Network.

[Angela Kinsey]

Welcome guys, welcome. Oh, and you better have us as guests real soon.

[Josh Radnor]

Uh huh.

[Jenna Fischer]

Get on it.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Well, here we are. Welcome to the first episode of season two of How We Made youe Mother. I am Josh Radner. I played Ted Mosby on the TV show called How I Met yout Mother which ran on CBS from 2005 to 2014. I am here with the co creator of that show, Craig Thomas. Hello Craig, it's great to see you.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello Josh. Very excited to be back here with you and the fans and our new wonderful friends over at the Office Ladies Network.

[Josh Radnor]

Oln we sometimes call it, which is just to save us the energy of saying all those syllables.

[Craig Thomas]

We don't have that kind of time. We're very busy people.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, we gotta get on with it.

[Craig Thomas]

Tell this story. Yeah, tell the story. How did this happen?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, we're delighted to be working with Jenna and Angela and their team. So the way this came about was, you know, we were a kind of lean and mean Operation First Season. Me, Craig, Alec, Doug, Alex, just this very small team. And we were, we were just doing this all on our own. And I called Jenna Fisher, my old pal from back in the days because we were on big hit TV shows around the same time. So we got to know each other and I was reaching out one to ask her her advice as a trailblazer in the Rewatch podcast space if she had any advice for us. But also more specifically, I wanted to see if she would come on our podcast to talk about the strangeness of being, you know, a decade or so of your life being thought of as someone you're not being, you know, the whirlwind of being on a hit show like all these things. And before we even got into it, she said, are you guys working with a podcast company? And I said no. And she said, well, Angela and I have started our own podcast company called Office Ladies Network and we would probably be delighted to have you on. She actually said we would be sight unheard of podcast unseen. Like, how do you say that?

[Craig Thomas]

Sounds unheard. Sounds unheard. She just.

[Josh Radnor]

And then her and Angela gave a couple episodes a spin and immediately called us and said, we love this. We'd love to pull you under the umbrella of the Office Ladies Network. We'd love to cross pollinate in any ways that we could. And we're so delighted. We're so thrilled. Craig, what do you have to add?

[Craig Thomas]

We're so honored they would ask us. They're so good at it. They're so good. Their show's so good. Jenna and Angela, they are trailblazers. They kind of paved the for, like, a comedy rewatch podcast, like ourselves to come along too. And so we're grateful that they kind of took us under their wing and we're their partners now. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thank you to Jenna. Thank you, Angela. We're huge fans of the office. You will hear them on here and us on there. We really will kind of cross pollinate. It's going to be great. We're very grateful.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, it's kind of cool that it's. When we were growing up, like, crossover episodes were, you know, like Laverne and Shirley would show up on Happy Days.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. That's true. I miss that.

[Josh Radnor]

Time honored so much tradition. And we didn't do that in our era, so we're doing it now with our rewatch podcasts.

[Craig Thomas]

We're doing it now. I love it. I love retroactively. We're doing. We're doing it in this other medium. Since TV is too hard now. It's too hard to make TV shows now. So now we'll just do it on a podcast.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. So thank you. Thank you to Jenna and Angela and their team over at Office Ladies Network. We're. We're thrilled to be part of the family. And we are putting a pause on the YouTube segment.

[Craig Thomas]

And Craig.

[Josh Radnor]

And I'll just say this up front. Craig and I are aging aggressively. Just very aggressively each day.

[Craig Thomas]

We had a lot of work done over the summer. I don't know.

[Josh Radnor]

He did, and it has not settled.

[Craig Thomas]

Amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

It has not settled yet. It didn't take. We cannot. We, in good conscience, we cannot show you Craig Thomas's face right now until his work settles. If you were watching the show over on YouTube, thank you. We loved having you go over there. And we're still going to have some video components to the show, but. But we're not gonna be on YouTube every week.

[Craig Thomas]

Yep. You'll see fun videos on our socials, but it won't be the full episode on YouTube.

[Josh Radnor]

And you can monitor Craig's healing, which we're all.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, no, I'll assume the bandages will come off about episode 11 or 12 that we're discussing.

[Josh Radnor]

It's pretty hard to look at right now, I gotta be honest. It's kind of. There's like a drainage pipe going from each eye.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh, I haven't had the work done yet? What is going on? It's coming up. It's next week. This is horrible.

[Josh Radnor]

Why don't we get to it, Craig? Why don't we launch this sequel, season two? Turning now to our trusty producer, Alec Lev. Alec, tell us the name of this episode and when it originally aired.

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely.

[Alec Lev]

And hi, guys. Welcome back. Hi, Alex.

[Josh Radnor]

Exciting.

[Alec Lev]

And I'm very excited also about this Office Ladies Network. Jen and Angela have already been amazing to work with. Thanks to them from me also and Colin, who is part of their team as well. The episode is called Where Were We? It Originally aired on September 18, 2006, written by Carter Bayes and Craig Thomas.

[Josh Radnor]

Where Were We? It's a great question to ask.

[Craig Thomas]

We love the meta title.

[Josh Radnor]

We wrapped up season one and I haven't seen you for years. And by years, I mean like six weeks, maybe six weeks. It's been the smallest summer hiatus I've ever had.

[Craig Thomas]

It is a brief hiatus. It's not like the real. The real hiatus. Several months. I would not see you for a while. You would go off on crazy adventures. The writers would come back way before the actors. We worked for like six, eight weeks before you got there. All the actors would come in looking tan and beautiful and be like, how was your guys summer? We'd be like, we're haggard and gray. We haven't seen the sun. Don't ask us how our summer was. But yeah, no, this was a quicker turnaround. So it's fun to jump right back in. I love the meta title of Where Were We? That was the feeling in trying to break this episode in the writer's room of like, how do we pick this up? And here's my first thought, Josh, when I started watching this one, which I did last night, and I loved it. I hadn't seen this in years and years and years and years. And the pressure coming into this episode was immense. We had been advised, scolded, to be less serialized in between the two seasons, season one and season two. We did not agree with that advice and we didn't really take it, but we really wanted to come in and kill it to show that we could do this kind of serialized emotional comedy show on CBS and have it find an audience. But we weren't there yet, so we really felt like we're singing for our supper. The thing the first thought I had was, it's so funny that we had to speak to the summer passing to still stay in season for when the TV show was airing. You were just talking about crossover episodes and like 70s and 80s TV. Another seemingly now vestigial thing is this idea that you have to be in the season where you're airing right on streaming. Who cares? Who cares? Like, ooh, andor why is it winter in Andor it's summer. While I'm watching it here in the.

[Josh Radnor]

Real world, I'm turning this off.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, but we. This is implausible. Now, there was this kind of common understanding, and we definitely didn't feel ready to buck that conventional wisdom that you've got to come in basically, in the season so you can catch up to your Thanksgiving episode and your Halloween episode and your Christmas episode, all that stuff. And you can be sort of in sync with where the viewer is watching it in time. And that was what dictated the storytelling in this episode. Showing the whole summer passing and kind of catching up to ourselves. Here we are again in September in New York City. I was laughing at the idea that shows just don't have to do that anymore.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, let's just bring the listener up to speed. So where we last left our heroes, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

So Ted makes this bold move to Robin in the rain. He shows up. They have this grand, romantic, cinematic kiss. He returns home to his Upper west side apartment from Brooklyn, which is a longer trip than people realize. We've already established the geography is implausible that a woman in Brooklyn would hang out that much on the Upper west side. But he gets back to the Upper west side, he's delighted. He can't wait to get home and tell Marshall and Lily. And Marshall is sitting out on the stoop holding the engagement ring. Lily is gone, devastated. So Ted has to pivot and sit down and sit with his best friend as they get pelted with rain.

[Craig Thomas]

One of my favorite moments in the whole series is that you putting your arm around him on those steps.

[Josh Radnor]

And that was the Block Party song, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yep. This Modern Love by Block Party. One of my favorite needle drops, as they say, for in the whole show.

[Josh Radnor]

So that's where we end season one, which I'm sure CBS was delighted by that happy waltz into the sunset ending.

[Craig Thomas]

Tune in for more sadness in September.

[Josh Radnor]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

[Jenna Fischer]

We love Instacart. We use it all the time. You know, it's more than a grocery technology platform. It's a care company. Yeah. Because it's designed to make life easier. It connects you to thousands of stores across the United States. With just a few taps, you can shop from your favorite stores and have fresh groceries and household essentials ready for pickup or delivered to your door in as fast as 30 minutes. We love it when we go out of town. We take a trip and Josh always sort of plans our groceries so they last us right up until when we leave. So we don't leave anything going bad in the fridge. And then when we get home we're going to need groceries. So so we land he Instacarts our order. We get home, we've got groceries waiting for us. Instacart brings convenience, quality and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app and use code officeladies20 to get $20 off your first order of $80 or more. That's code officeladies20 to get$20 off your first order of $80 or more. Offer valid for a limited time. Excludes restaurants. Additional terms apply. You guys have heard us talk about Acorns before. It is a simple tool that's going to help you save and you know at different times in your life you have different goals. I remember when I got my first job and my dad helped me set up a banking account so I could save money for the things I wanted. And I remember being so proud that I was saving money. Acorns makes it easy to give your money a chance to grow. Here's how it works. You don't need to be a finance whiz. Acorns puts your money into an expert built portfolio to make sure you're investing wisely and not wildly. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a five dollar bonus investment. Join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com officeladies or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier 2 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorn Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor.

[Angela Kinsey]

View important [e-mail] officeladies.

[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show. So then where were we? We popped back into this episode and I think it's one thing that I told Jordana that was really funny as I was watching I was like, so we're filming presumably an hour or two after they get inside. Robyn has come over. Or maybe it's later that morning, right?

[Craig Thomas]

No, yeah, that's definitely a couple hours.

[Josh Radnor]

We're still wet from the rain. Right? You can see that we've dried off a little. But there's four months between the end of that scene. And I just remember the props, or I think it was really wardrobe. They come through with spray bottles.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And they're trying to get you wet, you know, and keep you kind of looking plausibly wet and. But it's, It's. It's. It's such a funny time jump, especially because most TV and film is shot out of order.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

So you have to really know the script well enough to keep that order in your head as you're going and know where your character is emotionally. Because, you know, you could shoot the. The most emotionally impactful scene in the first couple days, and then you're shooting the previous, you know, stuff. So it's wild. But anyway, just give us a quick armchair summary, Craig, of what happens in season two, episode one. Where were we?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I really. I remember in the writer's room, like, feeling all this pressure until we realized two things. One, we're going to track the entire summer and show, like, Marshall's descent into madness through the summer and catch up to where we are. That was idea one that unlocked it. And idea two was this credit card idea where Marshall gets a hold of, midway through the episode of Lily's credit card bill. It's sent to him. And the idea of just these pieces of evidence of what she's been up to, and that's gonna sort of steer the second half of that episode. So that's basically. This is showing the summer of these two roommates, one of whom is the happiest he's ever been. He got Robin, and one of whom is the absolute saddest that he's ever been. And that was just a compelling idea to us.

[Josh Radnor]

You guys had fun. I could feel how much fun you had in playing with that idea that Ted is kind of euphoric. But it's. It's a funny thing when your friend is down. You almost have to, like, put on your sad face with that. Like, I mean, it's. It's a kind thing to be empathetic and be like, buddy, I know.

[Craig Thomas]

You know?

[Josh Radnor]

And also, it's hard to not be able to share your joy with your best friend of what's happening with you, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yes.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, the universe or whatever, the narrative storyteller, who. Who writing this story. It's like it never kind of. There's always this kind of. I've noticed, like, a kind of friction between where you are and where your friends might be or even your partners. You know, and everyone's not always on the same page. And that's something you have to negotiate with friendship and with just living in the world.

[Craig Thomas]

I loved what a good friend Ted was in that initial moment where Robin comes in and she's gonna say something about her and Ted getting together. And he's like, no, there's only one thing that happened in the news last night. There's no other news stories here.

[Josh Radnor]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

And I loved Ted for that. And I think it really earned Ted's later moment. You see Ted really tending to Marshall's well being the whole summer. And it felt very earned. Later in the episode when Ted does kind of say, enough. Stop acting this way. This isn't you. You'll never get her back or move on like this. And that's such a. We'll get there. But I love that arc. That was Ted's arc in the episode to start off as the caretaker and then becomes the one who kind of really tries to shake him out of it in the end in a way that is almost a little too much. But it's great. And that idea, we've all been on, I think, both ends of that equation. We've been the miserable guy that's being scraped off the floor by our friends, and we've been the super happy guy who's like, I can't be this happy around this person I love right now. I have to hide this happiness.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, there's an interesting thing that is like a real friendship dilemma that you guys were mining. I think in this episode, which is one is like, I'm going to sign off on my friend's version of reality. Like, I'm going to say, yes, he did you wrong, or she did you wrong, or this is horrible, or you're the victim here. Like, whatever their idea is for a long time, as your friend, you're like, yes, you have a right to be feeling what you're feeling. And I am with you. And I hate them for you and with you. But then at a certain point, the better friend act is to say, enough. You've got, like, I have a very dear friend who was really stuck around some stuff. I don't want to go too into it, but one of our other very dear friends, these are longtime friends, he really risked their friendship by saying, you gotta stop this. Like, you've gotta forgive this person. You've gotta move on.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I really salute this other friend for risking that. It can be very hard sometimes to speak capital T truth to a friend who's. Who's really got their stories, you know, set.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And to say, like, this is only hurting you. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

I think Ted was the best friendship Ted exhibited in that episode was when he was. When he yelled at Marshall.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think that was. It was time.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That was the power of that structure of seeing the whole summer fest. Day 56, day 67, blah, blah, blah. It's a long fucking time.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the whole summer. It's September now. And it's like. It's almost like Ted is saying in this meta way, like, we've still gotta be characters in this show. We've still gotta. We've got this show to do. People are watching it also.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like narrative is about action. You're just being a big baby on the floor.

[Craig Thomas]

We've gotta do something. We've gotta take some action.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just realized there's a very meta thing at the beginning where Marshall's gonna reach the phone to call Lily. And doesn't Ted say, I will punch you in the face? And he says, you're a good friend, Ted.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And he ends up actually kind of punching him in the face. And it's him being a good friend, like, later. That's kind of like the synopsis of what happens in the episode, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it is. That's right. He needs that punch in the end. He needed that. He needed to be shaken out of this. Yeah. I remember the writers room. Everyone had their breakup story right in the writer's room. Everyone. Like that sort of summer passing that of being in a months long post breakup depression. Everyone in the writers room had stuff on that. And I hope this isn't being. Sharing too much, but Jason Segel had had a serious relationship when we met him and shot the pilot.

[Josh Radnor]

He wrote quite a big movie about it. So I don't think we're spoiling anything.

[Craig Thomas]

But just to talk about. He was very. That was fresher for him then it was before he wrote that movie. Or maybe he was writing that movie as we were shooting this. But he. He knew how to lean into that feeling. Right. He had been. He had been in that feeling not too long before we shot this.

[Josh Radnor]

You didn't get the feeling like Jason was like, would not draw. Like Jason knew how to. How to suffer over a relationship ending that was available to him.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

You know when Barney comes in and one of Neil's great things is like his ability to like, pivot.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like just pivot. Like he can go one place. It almost is like slaloming down A hill. You make it like a sharp turn to clear a gate. Like, he's so good at that. And his, like, real genuine concern for Marshall. And then his realization that they're all three single. So he thinks at the same time. And something Neil does in this, but I don't know if he did it in season one. I think he did a little bit, but he's really leaning into it when he looks off into the middle distance for these monologues.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, he really does have that.

[Josh Radnor]

And to him, in his head, it's like they're swelling strings like. Like, this is like a big monologue in a movie that he is delivering. And you always get the feeling, like, on the cab over, he thought. He thought up some of these lines. Like, he's so performant.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Barney's writing his own dialogue for sure. In his own. In Barney world. Barney's definitely crafting a dialogue. I have a fun fact about that speech, first of all. I mean, Neil fucking crushed that speech.

[Josh Radnor]

Amazing.

[Craig Thomas]

And that turn at the end where he realized he and his magical ability to know that Ted and Robin hooked up is great. Neil killed that. And a fun fact about that speech is it is kind of cribbed from the Grapes of Wrath. I'll explain.

[Josh Radnor]

So we had Fitzgerald in season one.

[Craig Thomas]

Signed back in season two.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And it was not. I will not take credit for that at all. I don't think it was Carter either. Greg Maylands, who was joining the show at that point. Greg Malins, a very funny writer, executive producer. Great guy, wrote for Friend. Great dude. Rode for Friends for many years and moved it up the ranks to the point where he was running Friends for at least a couple seasons, I think. And then we learned he was this huge amateur mother fan. We were a huge Friends fan. We hired him to come be kind of like our number two guy on the show in season two. He wasn't on season one, and he came into season two and right away had this great pitch for this Barney. We knew we wanted a big Barney speech that ended with Barney that was celebrating them all being single. Thank God we're all single for the first time together. And then realizing Robin, like Ted and Robin, hooked up and deflating. We knew that shape, but we didn't know what the speech was. And we're like, it's the opening of the season two, the first sequence. It needs to fucking kill. And Greg said, well, there's that speech in the Grapes of Wrath. I'm trying to look it up as we're talking where it's like, I'm just like. One line from it is, like, in the dark, wherever there's a fight for hungry people, a cop beating up a guy, or kids laughing while hungry, I'll be there. So Greg Malan somehow had that speech in his head, and he's like, what about that? Except it's Barney people, you know? And I was like, yes. And like, we looked up the speech from Grapes of Wrath, and, like, we sort of modeled it on that. I hadn't thought of that for so many years until I watched this last night. It was like. That was Greg. That was Grapes of Wrath.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You know, this is a little name droppy, but it's a fun. It's a fun little thing. I. I'm friendly ish with Jason Rass. I've known him for a long time. And he has this great song. I love that. I don't even know if he's released it called Rescue. And his manager told him, like, you should steal from the greats. Like, steal from, like, the greatest melodies and composers of all time. And so he showed me that this song, Rescue, is the chord progressions of Pachelbel's Canon.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But you'd never know it. It's just like he used this kind of.

[Craig Thomas]

He's not the only one that did that.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he used the map, right? And I think, like, you guys, you can graft something on to a form that really works. I mean, it's a rhetorical form. It's almost like a political speech that really is like, yes, we can.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, it's yes, we can. It's the repeated. It's like a pattern poem. It's like if we take that kind of pattern poem and we kind of do our own version of it, it's. There it is. It's like Weird Al. You know, it's just like, let's take something good and make it our own. And.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I love it.

[Craig Thomas]

You're weird aling it.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what struck me at the end of Barney's speech when he. And then he looks at Ted and Robin, and it takes him a second and a half, and he says, oh, you guys. You guys did it. Like, he knows. And I realized there's one other thing that I'll point out in this episode. I think it's with. With Ted and Marshall. They do have telepathy.

[Craig Thomas]

They do.

[Josh Radnor]

It's not just in the telepathic moments, like, they're getting to know each other so well, that they get it. They understand unspoken. They can Read each other's body language. They can read, you know, stuff between them. And I thought that was fascinating. It's. It's a real gesture of the intimacy that is developing between all of these characters. They just know things I really like.

[Craig Thomas]

Because Robin says, it's like, we have a baby. We had a baby all summer. We just got together. We have a baby. His name's Marshall. And, like, And I loved that metaphor because Ted is being parental to Marshall. We're seeing, like, young Ted, who will someday grow up to have these two children parenting Marshall through the summer and in the end, giving him tough love and being kind of firm and challenging him and using that parenting speed after this summer of comfort.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, it's like when couples get together and they accidentally get pregnant so fast, and they barely. Like, that's what Ted and Robin are like. They're like, we just got together, and now we have a baby. A screaming, crying baby on our hands.

[Craig Thomas]

This is teeny, tiny. But one joke that I was disappointed. Every now and again, someone will ask me, do you have regrets? Would you go back and change a joke? I did have one of those, because I misremembered a joke in this, and I think my misremembering was funnier. And maybe we tried to write it this way and we were told to change it or we got a note or something. But you know the joke where Marshall comes out and he's talking about how he has lily shampoo? He's talking about how it smells like lavender and seashells and hope, and it's both comforting and erotic at the same time. And then Robin goes, that's mine. I thought we wrote it. That Ted goes, that's mine. Which is so much funnier.

[Josh Radnor]

It is funnier.

[Craig Thomas]

I was heartbroken watching this last night because I've Misremembered this for 20 years as the better version of that joke. And I can't remember if we had it that way or were, like, told to change. I don't know what the hell was happening there, but it's still kind of a funny joke. But it would have been so much funnier if it was Dad's.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also, like, I don't know. Certainly now. I mean, maybe it wasn't true then, but, like, who can tell the difference between a female and male shampoo at this point? Totally.

[Craig Thomas]

You know? Absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

I was thinking there must be three things in writers rooms where I thought you guys probably had a really fun time with similarities between the early months of dating and breakups. Like, like just like getting an idea and kind of run and crowdsourcing it and. And running around, you know, the dry erase board, like getting up all the. And then picking the best ones, Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yep. Absolutely. That's what that whole form was. Where you're going through the summer and hear the similarities. Kids. And I love that it's future Ted kind of giving. Giving the kids this bit of wisdom, how there's overlaps of these things. That was so much fun to pitch on. Yeah. We found a bunch of good structures in this one. Even mini structures like that. That's a minute of the show right there. It's 45 seconds of the show is like that concept. And then that concept not too much. Long past that you're getting into the credit card mystery of it all. And again, another mystery episode. Right. This episode becomes a mystery episode like so many of the great How Mitch Mother episodes. Proving my theory that the mini mysteries within this larger series mystery are. So many of our best episodes are that. And I think that's why this episode works, because this is. There's a mystery to solve and Lily is this completely off screen presence in imaginary land. And this mystery needs to be solved. And I did love that about this one.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, there's those memes that go around like kids, I'm gonna tell you a nine year story that could have taken 15 minutes. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yep.

[Josh Radnor]

And I understand that. But it's almost like saying, well, you're gonna die anyway, so you should just get on with it and kill yourself. Like, there's so much pleasure to be had in the ride and in the storytelling and in the little mini mysteries along the way.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. As opposed to all of those other sitcoms that never wasted any time or took any weird side trips. They were all business, all the time.

[Josh Radnor]

Just forward, action, momentum, who was the boss, you know? Yeah. So I think there's each little episode that has its own kind of self contained little mystery. I mean, there's a reason I think people keep watching it over and over. And that's part of what we're interrogating here. I loved Barney's suicide mimes.

[Craig Thomas]

They're so disturbing. I can't believe we got them on.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, the first one is a gun. The second one is he's hanging himself. The third one is. What's it called when you do the samurais?

[Alec Lev]

Seppuku.

[Craig Thomas]

Seppuku, right. Seppuku.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Oh, my God. It's so specific. He's really thought out every beat of how he would.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

How he would disembowel himself.

[Josh Radnor]

And you probably. This is another thing that Greg Malins used to say to me is he's like, it's really important for the writers to get to know the actors because you learn more about what you can give them, like, what you can. What they. You know. And one of the things I think that you guys started to notice about Neil was he was a physical comedian, like, extra.

[Craig Thomas]

Like a cartoon. A genius. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, his precision and his ability to kind of, like, mime things and turn on a dime and do these little. I mean, just incredibly specific, virtuosic. Virtuosic things. Like, you could feel that. Like, and I don't even remember how much direction was in the script. Like, they were probably pretty specific. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, what he did with the sort of disemboweling himself with the samurai sword was. Was a work of art. We couldn't. We. We did not scripted that. Like, I don't know that we. I would love to. Maybe we wrote that in. But again, if we did, it was better than we could have hoped for.

[Josh Radnor]

The writing is really sharp in this episode. Like, Jordana, we noticed she was laughing so hard. This is my wife, Jordana, for those of us just joining us.

[Craig Thomas]

First time viewer.

[Angela Kinsey]

First time viewer.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, first time viewer. And she said. She leaned over to me and she's like, wow, we're laughing, like, a lot.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, that's so good to hear. I was so nervous about this episode at the time. I so wanted it to work. So did Carter.

[Josh Radnor]

I think that you're starting to see that the kind of comedic landmines and character quirks and stuff that you planted in the first season start to really pay off. Like, when you come back to, you know, and even, you know, Robin as a gun nut.

[Craig Thomas]

We learned that in this one.

[Josh Radnor]

He calls her a gun nut, and she says, no, I'm a gun enthusiast.

[Craig Thomas]

Enthusiast. Enthusiast is such a good word.

[Josh Radnor]

So good.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. That was us finding those other speeds and finding how Koby can. Koby, when she warns him not to. And Ted's not gonna find out, and.

[Josh Radnor]

She'S holding the gun.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, finding that speed. That Robin is a little bit terrifying at times was amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

And. And also, like, the. Of course, Ted is not a gun fan. Like, of course. Like, that's a great moment of conflict. Like. Like. Like that's gonna. You know, their. Their different kind of worldviews and their different political takes. Like, it's. It's very smart how that starts to reveal itself. But there was something about this episode, like, I found myself laughing really hard at this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, that's so great to hear.

[Josh Radnor]

I really did. You know what I thought was a great line is when Marshall says, why eat food? It's just gonna leave me. And then Ted says, you know, he kind of makes the joke explicit. At least in this scenario. You get to do the dumping. Like, it's such a dumb throwaway joke, but so smart.

[Craig Thomas]

That was one of my hardest laughs. It was one of my. I forgot about that joke completely. That was one of my hardest laughs.

[Josh Radnor]

Of the whole episode. And also Ted's face, like, hey, like, like trying to lighten the mood. You know, I thought there was a great, almost like a pretty iconic Barney line. And in this episode when he said, when I get sad, I stop being sad and just be awesome instead. True story. Like, that's like a Barney T shirt line.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, like, it gets quoted all the time as one of the most quoted lines I see. And it just sort of a throwaway in the middle of this episode. It's so, like thrown away. But it, it caught on.

[Josh Radnor]

It's. It's also, it's a. It's a kind of monument to repression. Like, it's like this weird. It's like not a quite a healthy thing, but like growing up in the Midwest, like, I get it.

[Craig Thomas]

I get it's not a self help book, but it also kind of can work for a while.

[Josh Radnor]

But it was also, you know, we know from season one that he's got this reservoir of emotion that he's sitting on top of, that he's put a tie and a suit on top of. So it's both a throwaway, funny line that his character revealing but will also.

[Craig Thomas]

Come back because that can't last.

[Josh Radnor]

That does not last, doesn't last forever.

[Craig Thomas]

And we go on to show that, but of course, we didn't know exactly how and when we would show all of those things. And that's what was fun about getting to Robin as a gun nut. I'm like, well, right, we found that there. We found that there. And we started to know her a little more.

[Josh Radnor]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

New York City and now commercials.

[Angela Kinsey]

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. You know, we use squarespace for our officeladies.com website. It's the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. It doesn't matter if you're just starting out or maybe you're managing a growing brand. Squarespace makes it easy to create a truly beautiful website to engage with your audience and to sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place, all on your terms. We absolutely love it. We also love their cutting edge design. I think our page looks real pretty guys. And since every dream needs a domain, Squarespace domains made it very easy for us to grab the name Office ladies. Head to squarespace.com officeladies for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, use code OfficeLadies to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Josh Radnor]

Come to DSW for the shoes. Stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, good different. Try something that feels like you. You know, the real you. And then definitely brag about it later. Because at DSW you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores [e-mail] Let us surprise you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job. It's about getting the right person with the right background who can move your business forward and find candidates who match what you're looking for. Trust Indeed Sponsored Jobs Stop struggling to get your job. Post even seen on other sites. Give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed sponsored jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Sponsored Jobs Boost your post for quality candidates so you can reach the exact people you want faster. Join the 1.6 million companies that sponsor their jobs with Indeed. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves. @ Indeed.com listen. Just go to Indeed.com listen right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com listen. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed.

[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials back to show.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what's a fun runner in this episode is. Oh, already I know.

[Craig Thomas]

Little premature declaration runner just for the just for the folks watching at 8:30 on CBS with their kids.

[Josh Radnor]

But that's another way where Ted has telepathy. He's calling her like he can feel it in the heart. I love that.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that.

[Josh Radnor]

It's kind of like a parent knows that like the kid is in danger downstairs. You know, like I need to get. I need to Go save them.

[Craig Thomas]

And he's right. That it really is telepathy. He knew from 50ft away on a closed door Marshall's doing. It really is parental. Cause as a parent, you do have that. You're like, it's too quiet out there. Some shit's going on. It's not even the noise that calls you. It's the quiet. It's too quiet out there.

[Josh Radnor]

What was the line? Ted says he watched a scary movie. Was that to Robin?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Cause, yeah, yeah, no, he said that to Robin was being like, Marshall's.

[Josh Radnor]

He was sleeping on our floor.

[Craig Thomas]

He was sleeping on the floor. The floor. He watched a scary movie. It's so parental. Hey, you watched a scary movie. It's like the tough mom and then the pushover. Ted's the pushover dad.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. He's the good cop, she's the bad cop. Yeah. Marshall getting ejected from the baseball game and throwing the chili dog.

[Craig Thomas]

Holy shit. I forgot about that.

[Josh Radnor]

I forgot about that, too.

[Craig Thomas]

There's so many like. Like, viral clips of shit like that really happening at baseball games and sporting. Sporting events now these days that I'm like, oh, that was a. That feels oddly prophetic. People stealing balls for. From Kansas.

[Josh Radnor]

And also Jumbotron's never more in the news than the last couple months, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Oh, yes, yes. A little. Little Coldplay retroactive shout out. It felt weirdly topical.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, I. This is a little backstage thing that I remembered. So Barney has a line about, what do you guys watch Love, actually until your periods sync up. Was that the.

[Craig Thomas]

The line?

[Josh Radnor]

And then we laugh. And Carter came in and gave a note to, I think me and Neil, and he said, I want it to be Ray Liotta's laugh from Goodfellas.

[Craig Thomas]

Cause remember, we both got like, there's.

[Josh Radnor]

That, like, insane, like, cackle. And he was like. He was very specific. Like, I just want it to be Ray Lio's laugh from Goodfellas.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, a little too big and a little too crazy. Yeah, that's a great note. And he's absolutely right, Carter. Cause it made for a great hard cut to that gun firing, cutting off that laughter. Yeah, that was hilarious. That's hilarious.

[Josh Radnor]

Really honest. We just have to talk about funk legend George Clinton.

[Craig Thomas]

He's so good in this. He's so hilarious.

[Josh Radnor]

He's, like, low key. He's like, low key. A genius actor in addition to being, like, a toweringly great musician.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And breaking the fourth wall and turning the camera. Now I'm gonna let her play with my hair.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm gonna let her play with my hair.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. It's so funny. The funny thing is, here is, I think we were told maybe in some sense of panic, to boost the ratings again, to give context. We had started, by the end of season one, to lose to that show where Howie Mandel was opening briefcases full of money with models. We were losing to that. And I think we're trying to cast some huge. Not that George Clinton is not huge, but some, I don't know, some rock legend that was, like, beyond what we could get. They wanted Paul McCartney, you know, whatever it was, and the sort of. And George. To be clear, George Clinton is very. Is an incredible get and enduring legend in his own right, but so specific and strange. And it's not like where we started. I'm sure the network pitched us all these huge names that were, like, current. Like, popular people that are 30, you know what I mean? And to get, like, grizzled, old, wonderful George Clinton with eight different colors in his hair. He's eight different colors in his hair. He has been through some shit. And now he's taken Lily away from Marshall. He's added to his amazing resume.

[Josh Radnor]

But much like everything with. With the show, it's like where we landed was actually funnier and cooler than anything else.

[Craig Thomas]

It's where we needed to be. It's so funny. He was so great. And It's. Whatever the 10 names we didn't get before we got to him. And I mean this in the best way. It was so right. I'm so thrilled it was him. He was amazing. And we had a personal connection. I will say we had a personal connection to get him. Erica, the casting assistant, Erica Pennington. I think her mom was a part of George Clinton's management team. It was almost because we were not a hit show. That's what I'm trying to say. We couldn't have gotten Mick Jagger to do that. But no one really knew who the fuck we were still. So we needed to call in a favor through direct contacts to George Clinton because we struck out on all the other names. But we had a personal line of George Clinton, and that's how we got it. I think I'm remembering that correctly.

[Alec Lev]

And also, just a quick thing to tie it to you. He played at Wesleyan.

[Craig Thomas]

He did. P. Funk played Wesleyan when Alec and I were in college. P. Funk played a huge show at Wesleyan that was like the Spring Fling. It was, to this day, legendary show. They're amazing. I hope it doesn't seem like an anywhere I'm done playing George Clinton. He's fucking great. Great. It was so great. We got him.

[Josh Radnor]

And I was in. I was in a movie with Katherine Hahn and Juno Temple called Afternoon Delight that had a very uncomfortable strip tease scene to Biological Speculation, which remains one of my favorite songs. I'm just trying to get in on the George Clinton conversation. I didn't meet him that day. I loved oh. Funk legend George Clinton. I'm so glad you spotted me at your concert and dragged me up on stage to dance with you Courtney Cox style. And I wonder for our beloved Gen Z fans out there, do you guys know what that is a reference to? Because this is like, that's such a Gen X deep cut. This is a pre Friends Courteney Cox getting called on stage by Bruce Springsteen in the video for Dancing in the Dark, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Correct. Yeah. I think it's her first big thing. Courtney Cox. It's her first big thing she did. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

She's like literally plucked out of the audience and dances adorably with Bruce Springsteen in this very iconic famous video. But there are a couple of real deep cultural cuts that I'm like, almost like Shakespeare. You need. This is what this meant in 1587 or whatever.

[Craig Thomas]

This podcast episode is airing in October, right? It's October. As you're listening to this mid October, that means we have passed the 20 year anniversary of the Himyum premiere, which as we record this is not here yet here, that's next week. Like a week from this Friday is the 20 years since it aired, underscoring the need to maybe give a few cliff notes here and there 20 years later for what was at the time also a reference to something 20 years prior to that. That was an 80s music video with Courtney Cox. So yes, we'll try to remember that as we go to name check some of those.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's just such a funny thing that like that whole sequence is just opening up the cranium of a person who's going insane and making insane connections based on a credit card statement. So he's convinced that there's this ferret involved. And it's. The ferret is to mock Marshall, who hates ferrets. So she's doing everything to wound and hurt him.

[Craig Thomas]

It's accurate. Right? When you're imagining that other person you broke up with and the incredible happiness they are experiencing now that you're out of their life. It's, it's, it come. Even though it's completely insane and there's ferrets and George Clinton. It's from A real place. That's why I think it lands. Because it is like your brain spins those things. That person and the unknownness. Like, it's like Jaws, how you just don't see the shark for so much of that movie. Like, where's Lily? What is Lily doing in the real world? She's somewhere. She's probably in San Francisco.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, we all do it when. When someone hasn't texted or emailed back, we. We run through it. We're like, oh, they must be furious about this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, they're angry about this.

[Craig Thomas]

I think we. We spin out. It's real.

[Josh Radnor]

I love when. I mean, the whole notion of, like her identity had been stolen and these are not her charges. Like, such a great reveal of the mystery and that Marshall punches the guy at the hotel room thinking it's her boyfriend. But I really love this scene. I mean, so obviously Ted explodes at Marshall in that great thing where he kind of loses it. He can't take it anymore. He has to give him this tough love. Talking to. That came out much harsher, I imagine, than he wanted it to.

[Craig Thomas]

You had some great stuff in this episode. You had great stuff to play and you leaned into it. Just the protection of Marshall, the arc of protecting Marshall to then running out of the patience to protect Marshall was so. It's like a little bit of a ticking time bomb, right? Like Ted has this fuse. We're gonna get to the point where Ted can't even take it anymore and he's gonna feel guilty. But he was also kind of right. And Marshall thanks him for it. He does snap out of it at the end, sort of. I loved also the reality of the sweet music starts. Ted and Marshall have it out in the bar. The sweet music starts playing and you hard cut out and you go, he wasn't better. He still woke up the next morning and was fucking miserable. Because that's how it is. That's how breakups are.

[Josh Radnor]

There was another thing that you guys did that this started to happen a lot. And you can give me more specifics about this. But when he describes head walks in and he describes seeing Marshall for the first time in their dorm room and how that confident guy that absolutely feet up on the wall. And then Marshall says, I was high that day. I was so high. I thought you were the dean. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Ye.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't remember what season it is, but we play that out.

[Craig Thomas]

We shot it. We went back and shot that scene. I love when we do that. We did that with the bunk bed joke in season one. Where it's the tie. The bottom bunk moves, the top bunk's gonna move, too. And these jokes that we just had stayed with us. We said, why don't we see that someday? That is the gift of being on for long enough that you can find a way back to show that joke that you said happened. And we did. We did. Later. I'm blanking on what season? At the moment when you rewatch the.

[Josh Radnor]

Series, people probably remember. People probably remember this scene where he says, oh, I thought you were the Dean. You're not the Dean. Right. And Ted is giggling because he's eating a sandwich. Yeah, they probably remember that. Then they go back and watch it. And first episode of season two, he says, oh, I was so high, I thought you were the Dean. And they're like, oh, yeah. We end up seeing that later. Like, you can watch this show almost backwards and have delight in it the way. You know. But they have this great scene at the hotel that I thought was just. Just every once in a while, you would write a scene for me or Jason that I was like, this is a real fun gift. And I. I think Jason and I really appreciated those scenes where we could just, like, be best friends in a way not under the harsh glare of Barney and. But to be the. The friends that had been best friends since they were 18. You know, I love the line, you can't let Lily steal your identity the way that guy stole hers. Yeah, it's so wonderful.

[Craig Thomas]

That's my favorite line of the whole episode.

[Josh Radnor]

I think the way it ended, it was kind of like a beautiful, heartbreaking cliffhanger. You know, Marshall's on the road to healing his busted heart. The gang is together. They're having, like, a great laugh in McLaren's. And then we spot Lily through that window, wanting to come in, but also something keeping her. And probably seeing Marshall, you know, not doubled over in agony. But maybe the gang moved on without me. Like, we never want people to move on. You know, we don't want life to go on without us. That's a tough thought. So much of How I Met yout Mother was a kind of withholding of information until it was time to learn it. And in the most satisfying way to learn it. When Lily sees, like, Marshall, he's having a good night. He's at fun with his friends in the bar, and he's laughing. And she sees him laughing. She sees him. Okay. And she has no idea the months of agony he's been in. You know, really smart. Really smart storytelling.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he seems okay. And Maybe that means he doesn't need me to walk through this door. What does it mean? That he seems okay and she can't quite do it. The end of that episode is one of my favorite moments in season two. When you see Lily and you have that great talking about needle drops, you talking about the music there, that amazing cover of Boys Don't Cry by Grant Lee Phillips, which was pitched to us by Andy Gowen, our music supervisor. Sometimes Carter and I or Josh or somebody would have the idea for a great song. This was very much Andy Gowen's pitch. Boys Don't Cry. Pushing in on that table, pushing past that table of our gang to find Lily in that window. She almost comes in. She's not ready. She turns away. I just remember in the edit room getting chills when we were putting that together and feeling like this is gonna work. We have a season two. There's stuff here. You've done one season of tv. You don't know what else is gonna happen past that. We were first time showrunners that we knew we had stuff there. We knew we had a condition that would give us six, eight, ten episodes of that season two. And it just felt like rocket fuel there. I want to see episode two. At the end of that episode. It had that cliffhangery thing of like, oh, shit, how do they get back together here? How does the gang get back together?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, let me explain another slight change that's happening in season two. We had a bunch of bonus episodes for season one. We're going to still do a few, perhaps, but in an effort for Craig and I to be able to spend more time with our families, we're going to be doing less bonus episodes. But we're going to try to retain the spirit of those bonus episodes, which were of course called general questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions. All right. Still suck at that. Here we are. Let's move through it before we're going to have this.

[Josh Radnor]

The inability to sync this up is not. It's not human error. It's technological. There's just a little. Anyway, we are. We are going to do our general questions. General question. It's Alec. I feel like you're. It's your problem.

[Craig Thomas]

I hate that it leads to finger pointing and divisiveness within the group. That's my regret about it.

[Josh Radnor]

We're going to be doing that right now. So, Alec, take it away. What do you have for us?

[Alec Lev]

Absolutely. So you can find us at how we made your mother.com and hit contact. You could send in a voice message. You could Send in an email. You could fill out a form.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes. And also, by the way, these can be questions, these can be observations. And what we really like to hear, especially in the voice notes, is tell us what how I met your mother means to you, how you discovered it, how it changed your life, how, why you keep watching it, who you've, you know, turned onto the show. We want to hear all those stories. We love them.

[Alec Lev]

And, you know, for. On Instagram, I mean. I mean, there have been so many years of people posting so many clips and memes and things that sort of kept him young, alive. And thank you to everyone there. And we are, of course, on the social media at how we made your mother. And on our Instagram is where we solicit your questions. Also on the How We Made youe Mother fan club page on Facebook. So from the Internet, Spencer Matson says, asks, what were some of the lessons you learned while filming or writing season one that you knew you wanted to implement in season two? Did you have to do any major pivoting, major pivoting this early in the series based on how something in the first season was received?

[Craig Thomas]

Well, I touched upon this a little bit. We were given a bit of a warning not to be too serialized, and I think we just didn't do it. We sort of said, yes, okay, we'll take a look at that. But we didn't. We knew the show's power was serialization and the fact that the emotional throughline kind of kept going. And if you look at this episode take you all the way through to Summer. We take you all the way through the emotional journey of the characters. I don't think. I think the biggest lesson was not to cave in and worry too much about that, was to think the fans will find this. This will find people who get it. Thank God. Thank you to the fans. Thank you to everyone who's listening to this and who watched the show, because we did find you. The show did find you. And I'm proud to say, I think we kept. We stayed true to the spirit of what we wanted to do with this show. I think if we learned anything, it was like, let's dig deeper into these characters. We find this other weird trait of Robin in this episode along the way, and we find other. We just kept digging deeper into these characters and these actors, what these actors could do and these relationships and digging deeper into their history and connection. I think that was definitely something we did more of and wanted to do more of in season two, but we didn't wanna mess with, with kind of the heart and soul of the show, which it is serialized. It just is.

[Alec Lev]

Josh, was there anything as an actor who now, okay, you're in season two. There's a little, maybe a little more of a. You could breathe out. You're actually doing this. This is staying on TV for a while. And with that aside, you can lean in a little more. Was there a pressure valve released a little bit for you, or was it the opposite? It was, oh, we're doing this now. Is it more pressure?

[Josh Radnor]

No, I think it was. I think it was less. In as much as I, I knew they were not going to replace me with another guy to play the role, I, I, I felt like some, some measure of job security. I mean, we were still, you know, we were still season to season. We weren't, we weren't getting two season pickups. We were very dependent. We didn't even know if we'd get a back nine in season two at this point. Right. Like, we, we knew we had 13.

[Craig Thomas]

Correct.

[Josh Radnor]

Are they going to air all 13? You gotta, you know, you gotta stay. They're still feeling good about it. I think that I felt really good about where Ted was. I mean, it's certainly, like, even though it's an, you know, you're, you're an actor, like, it's more fun to play the wiser, you know, steadier character in terms of, I mean, it can be fun to play despair and all that stuff. But I liked that Ted didn't have to be, at least in this episode, the person who was punched in the face or left at the altar, like, he got to really get the girl. He got to be the good friend. I thought Ted's virtues were really on display in this episode. And I think that's why I liked it so much, was cause I didn't have to open a vein, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, I think. And that's another thing we learned. We put the focus on Marshall. Marshall is the focus of the romantic quandary in this episode and in this opening arc of season two. And that was something we wanted to do. We said it was. The spotlight was on Ted all through season one. Let's get Ted with Robin and let's take a look at the pain and struggles of somebody else here for a minute. And that was exciting. It was exciting because it was a new move, and we couldn't do that when Marshall and Lily were just super couple. We needed to shake them up a bit there.

[Alec Lev]

Pratttee asks Josh looks more tan in the season premiere. How'd you spend your time away?

[Josh Radnor]

You know, it's so funny. I have very vivid memories of my second season hiatus, but the first season hiatus in between one and two. Oh, I know what I was. I did a. I, I believe I did a play in Poughkeepsie at the New York Stage in Film up at Vassar, which is a theater that I have worked with since I was, like, in college. I'm almost sure I did a play there that summer. So I was just, you know, I was in upstate New York doing theater and going to the tanning and going to the tanning bed many, many times throughout the summer.

[Craig Thomas]

What's funny is you're tan. You got very tan in the half hour after you came in from the rain on the stoop. That's the weird thing about needing to sort of play that continuity. It's like everyone looks a little different. The apartment looks a little different.

[Josh Radnor]

I have people often say that I look tan. I think that if I get a little bit of sun, I kind of brown up. You know, I don't burn very easily. And it's always a little shocking to people.

[Craig Thomas]

Boy, are we different.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, yes. This just shows that two different species can be friends.

[Craig Thomas]

Greg. The Irish and the Jews don't share the overlap there.

[Alec Lev]

Ryan SchwartzTV says it's supposed to be the same day, but the brown couch from season one has been swapped for the red couch in the season two premiere. Why the change?

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, I'll tell you one. We got a bunch of notes at the end of season one, and some of them we agreed with. We didn't want to unserialize the show. We wanted to keep it that way. But we did get, I think we got a note from the network. It may have even been from Pam Freyman too, where everybody just sort of agreed season one. Visually, that apartment looks a little dark. And I think Carter and I wanted it to be like, not the fancy shiny, like the friend's apartment, huge. And this sort of weird, like that purpley kind of like lots of like almost neon colored things. We wanted it to be more like, this is a New York apartment. It's still too big. But we wanted it to be a plausible New York apartment. I think we probably steered our set designer and his team towards, like, let's grit it up a little bit. It doesn't need to look shiny, it doesn't need to look neon. And I think we might have gone a few clicks too far. Season one does look a little dark. The couch is a little dark. The Wall's a little dark. We decided to just brighten everything up and we did it hoping no one would notice. But of course, in the interim, people are like, why the fuck is there a different couch from when they left the apartment than night before?

[Josh Radnor]

It's also like you were depending on four months of amnesia for people, right?

[Craig Thomas]

It wasn't on streaming. You hadn't seen how much of other since May, and now it's September.

[Josh Radnor]

People literally go from episode 22 of season one right into episode, and you're like, the cow. Why is the couch different?

[Craig Thomas]

Why is the couch different, Bitch. Yeah, we've heard this a lot and we will continue to hear it.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a great question.

[Craig Thomas]

It is a great question.

[Josh Radnor]

I never knew that, though. It was my goddamn fake apartment and I didn't know it was a new couch.

[Alec Lev]

All right, here's a little bsl. Bsl. Where does that word come from? That's. I think that's BTS mixed with asl, which I'm always thinking about. Sorry, Beach.

[Craig Thomas]

Here's a little BTL sign language.

[Alec Lev]

My goodness. A little behind the scenes question from @ keenan99. Okay. Do the actors in the background of bar and restaurant scenes actually have conversations? It seems like they mouth real words but have silent conversations. How does that work?

[Jenna Fischer]

Work?

[Josh Radnor]

Literally what you just said.

[Craig Thomas]

That's what it is.

[Josh Radnor]

That's what it is.

[Craig Thomas]

Your question answered itself. And yes, it's weird.

[Josh Radnor]

It's generally the second A.D. who kind of is in charge of the background. The second ad Generally.

[Craig Thomas]

The second AD Extra points generally.

[Josh Radnor]

And it was Chris, right, Who was our second. Or maybe it was the second second. I can't remember. There's a second. Second assistant director, but. But they're ordered sometimes quite harshly. Like, we can hear you whispering. Like, they really have to mouth conversations.

[Craig Thomas]

They really have to mime it. It must be the most awkward job in the world to show up and sit with a stranger. You were just paired with pretending to talk silently to each other.

[Josh Radnor]

But there were a couple people that. Some of them were like UCLA students or like people that would show up, like, through the years that were like bar regulars. I'm thinking of a couple. There were a couple women that were just like, really cool. And they were always kind of in the bar like, like maybe half, three quarters of the seasons. And we got to know them because you're sitting around eating Chex Mix and drinking fake beer. And they were lovely. So shout out to the background actors. I always thought this job is actually harder than my job. Like this is a very difficult job.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not an easy job. And at one point, Conan o' Brien did that job on our show.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, we'll get to that. But yeah.

[Alec Lev]

And finally, a bigger question to end with here is Amor says, how much of season two was planned? When you ended season one as you did, was it a vague outline or was it more, we've set ourselves up. Let's see what comes next.

[Craig Thomas]

It was more than that. It wasn't, let's set ourselves up and see what comes next. But it certainly wasn't meticulously plotted out. I think you're looking for conditions to play what can give us some rocket fuel for a bunch of episodes. Marshall and Lily break up. Ted and Robin get together. That's a condition we can play. And then how do we have fun and be really interesting within that? How do we find the twists and turns of that? But if you set up that condition, you're just kind of getting the raw material kind of like the fuel in the rocket, and then navigating where that fuel takes you is the next step. And we probably over the summer, as we were starting to break and write those scripts, we got more plotting the navigation points on that journey. But we knew, I think we gave ourselves a gift at the end of season one. Even though season one ends sad and bittersweet, it was a gift to our future selves because we had a story to tell. We had to dig our way out of that problem.

[Josh Radnor]

Can I ask you, Craig? So by the time we come back, like, August, I don't remember mid August, let's say early August. Mid August. You guys were handed episode one. How many episodes deep are you into the writing? How many episodes have you broken? Like, where are you at that point.

[Craig Thomas]

When you show up to that first? When the actors show up to that first table read in whatever it was late August or whatever it would be.

[Josh Radnor]

If I'm remembering, I think it was a little earlier. It was always like, mid August, maybe.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, a little earlier, early August. We would hope to be at six scripts, maybe five or six scripts written or degrees of written. And then the outline and the shape for a few past that, and then it just slowly. I always thought of it as like, the season of TV is like Pac man eating these pellets. Okay? That episode got written and shot. That's a pellet. And it's just coming, coming, coming. There's this thing got a bite, and you're trying to stay as far ahead of that as you can. I realize I'm Making us the ghosts in Pac man or something. I don't know. The metaphor's falling apart. But yeah, we would always. You'd want to have six scripts and a couple outlines or else you'd feel really screwed.

[Josh Radnor]

But by the time we show up, that's the most comfortable you, as the showrunner is going to feel because you're the most ahead of it you'll ever be. Like, you're never going to be six episodes ahead the rest of the season.

[Craig Thomas]

No, you're going to just watch that, that catch up to you. Watch the devouring Pac man monster catch up and eat up those episodes. And yeah, it's invigorating, shall we say. It is a marathon run at a sprint's pace.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Awesome.

[Craig Thomas]

24 episodes. I think we did 22 in season two and when we became more successful, we started getting 24, but 22 is plenty.

[Josh Radnor]

So we like to end a lot of these episodes with. With a letter that's been sent into how we made your mother.com to contact and we got a delightful, wonderful letter from Sophie in Germany. And again, if you want to send one in, even if it doesn't make it on the air, which it might, please let us know what the show means to you and anything else you want to share with us about.

[Craig Thomas]

We love it. It's so nice. It's so great to hear.

[Josh Radnor]

So this one says, hi, my name is Sophie, I am 15 years old and I live in Germany. I discovered how I met your mother pretty precisely a year ago. I was alone on a nine hour train ride back home from Berlin. I logged into the train wi fi and a website popped up with hundreds of movies and series. For some reason, I decided to click on how I met your mother, not knowing how much I would fall in love with this show and how it would change me. I am someone who worries a lot about their future. I feel like I am missing out on all my teenage experiences, not having kissed anyone yet or feeling like anyone will ever fall in love with me. Every day I think about where I will be in 10 years, what job will I be doing, who I will still be with and who I am going to lose and if anyone is ever going to love me the way Ted loves. Saying that makes me feel guilty of thinking so much about myself. Knowing what is happening to the world in politics, climate change, AI, social media, the list goes on. I often feel like the whole world is just going under and that's just what my future will be like. All of these thoughts have taken up A lot of space the last four years. But since I met Ted, Marshall, Lily, Robin and Barney, the hope of everything eventually working out has been fighting the darker thoughts. How I met your mother comforts me in a way nothing else does. It taught me how important friendships are, that I have to let things change, and that every phase of your life is important and will lead you to something. So thank you, Josh and Craig, thank you so much for creating something that brings me hope, that makes me laugh and cry, and that will always have a special place in my heart.

[Craig Thomas]

That's beautiful. My God, Sophie, you are the wisest 15 year old I think I've ever met. Yeah, we're really honored the show has meant that to you. And yeah, thank you for sharing that with us.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Sophie, I just want to say, I mean, you sound like you have an enormous heart and I often find that about people that love How I Met yout Mother. They're just very deeply feeling people. And I think that as you demonstrate in your letter, you can hold many things in your awareness at one given, any given time. You can hold the pain and uncertainty of the world, the collective what's going on in the larger kind of landscape, as well as your own thoughts and feelings and hurts and yearnings. And we can hold all of that. I'm reminded of something that I think it's in one of Elizabeth Gilbert's books or talks. She talks about in. In a refugee camp in some war torn country. And it was just a terrible situation and this person had gotten to know some of the young kids in this refugee camp and they were all talking about who has a crush on who. And they were still, you know, even in this dire humanitarian situation, they were still wanted love and they still wanted to know who liked them and did they like, you know, you know, who they liked and that was still of interest to meet them. So I don't think, think that worrying about the world and being concerned about your own future and will you find someone to love and someone to love you? And I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I think that humans, we can hold all of that. And even though How I Met yout Mother was not a directly political show, I think there is something political about being a good friend and showing up for people and being loyal and. And those things are needed in our society. You know, Ted says love is the best thing we do. You know, it's a somewhat a political statement on some level if you want to get granular about it. So I think, I think we can do all those things. I don't think you have to feel bad about any of that. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How We Made your Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by Me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we made your mother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] Order Craig Thomas Debut novel that's Not How It Happened wherever books are sold and check out his other published writings at Craig Thomas Thomas writer.com and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack, to learn more about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact dance.

[Craig Thomas]

The real.

[Jenna Fischer]

Question.

[Josh Radnor]

It just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?