Is Toby the Scranton Strangler? With Paul Lieberstein

Summary

Office Ladies – Episode Summary: "Is Toby the Scranton Strangler? With Paul Lieberstein"

Release Date: January 8, 2025

In this compelling episode of Office Ladies, hosts Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey, along with special guest Paul Lieberstein, delve deep into one of The Office's most intriguing fan theories: Is Toby Flenderson the elusive Scranton Strangler? Through a structured debate and exclusive behind-the-scenes insights, the trio explores this theory, presenting evidence and counterarguments that will captivate both long-time fans and newcomers alike.

---

1. Introduction to the Debate

Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey kick off the episode by introducing the topic: the fan theory that suggests Toby Flenderson is the Scranton Strangler. They explain that they've gathered listener theories and opinions to dissect this possibility in a friendly yet analytical debate.

• Jenna Fischer [03:32]: "Today we are finally tackling the question. Is Toby the Scranton Strangler? Yes."

• Angela Kinsey [04:17]: "I say Toby is the Scranton Strangler."

2. Brief History of the Scranton Strangler

Angela Kinsey provides a concise history of the Scranton Strangler storyline within The Office, tracing its origins to Season Six and highlighting its significance throughout the series.

• Angela Kinsey [04:55]: "The first time the Scranton Strangler is featured is in the sixth season. It was the episode 'The Delivery'..."

She outlines how the Strangler becomes a recurring plot device, culminating in Toby serving on the jury that convicts George Howard Scubb. Despite the conviction, Toby remains obsessed with the case, believing Scubb's innocence and eventually confronting him in prison.

3. Exploring Unproduced Storylines

Jenna Fischer reveals hidden gems from the show's production, uncovering three unproduced pitches related to the Scranton Strangler. These pitches included Dwight Schrute attempting to trap the Strangler, escalating Halloween threats, and heightened office security measures.

• Jenna Fischer [07:53]: "I found three Strangler storylines that were pitched but not produced for season seven."

These insights provide fans with a glimpse into the creative processes and alternative directions the story could have taken.

4. Debate: Opening Statements

The heart of the episode lies in the structured debate between Jenna and Angela, each presenting their stance on whether Toby is the Strangler.

• Angela Kinsey's Opening Statement [11:18]:

  "I, Angela Kinsey, am taking the position that Toby Flinderson is indeed the Scranton Strangler. Today, I will prove the true nature of Toby Flinderson and the crimes he most certainly committed."

• Jenna Fischer's Opening Statement [12:53]:

  "My position is that Toby is not the Scranton Strangler. I will present evidence, or rather point out the lack of evidence that shows Toby is not a criminal."

5. Constructive Arguments

Angela Kinsey builds her case by aligning Toby's character traits with typical serial killer profiles:

• Background Trauma: Toby's parents' divorce and his own bitter divorce suggest a traumatic past ([07:24]).

• Obsessive Behavior: Toby's fixation on Pam, his venture into writing mystery novels like "A Murder for Framing," and his discussions about framing someone for murder indicate a dark side ([07:42]).

• Suspicious Actions: Toby's physical agility, habit of keeping his passport handy (possibly for fleeing), and his behavior during critical moments strongly suggest malicious intent ([26:58]).

• Angela Kinsey [32:03]: "Toby tells us he did it. Believe him. Toby Flinderson is the Scranton Strangler."

Conversely, Jenna Fischer counters by emphasizing the lack of concrete evidence and presenting alternative suspects:

• Lack of Evidence: No fingerprints of Toby at the crime scenes, discrepancies in car details linked to the Strangler, and clear identification of George Howard Scubb by Toby himself ([12:15]).

• Character Consistency: Toby is portrayed as mild-mannered and empathetic, traits not aligning with those of a typical serial killer ([15:01]).

• Alternate Suspects: Jenna proposes characters like Creed Bratton, Gabe Lewis, and David Wallace as more plausible candidates for the Strangler, citing their peculiar behaviors and opportunities ([40:28]).

• Jenna Fischer [33:15]: "There is simply no concrete evidence linking Toby to these murders."

6. Rebuttals

The debate intensifies as both hosts address each other's points:

• Angela's Rebuttal [45:13]:

  "Toby has a personality where he can compartmentalize and have no value at all to people who should have value... Toby's rage is simmering quietly in the annex and it comes out in the form of the Scranton Strangler."

• Jenna's Rebuttal [47:02]:

  "None of your arguments really hold up in court. Divorce trauma happens to a lot of us. Are we all serial killers, Angela K."

7. Exclusive Insights with Paul Lieberstein

Special guest Paul Lieberstein, who portrayed Toby, joins the conversation to shed light on the Scranton Strangler theory from behind the scenes:

• Origins of the Strangler Storyline: Paul discusses how the Strangler began as a background joke in Season Six and evolved over time, though it wasn't initially intended to involve Toby ([53:07]).

• Fan Engagement: He acknowledges the passionate fan theories but clarifies that the writers did not officially canonize Toby as the Strangler ([56:06]).

• Production Anecdotes: Paul humorously addresses Toby's pet peeve about window inconsistencies on set, sharing stories about frustration with prop placements ([73:24]).

• Paul Lieberstein [53:07]: "When conceived, this was simply a newspaper joke. Thank you. Committed to record."

8. Conclusion of the Debate

As the episode wraps up, Jenna and Angela reflect on the debate's outcomes:

• Jenna Fischer: Feels there was no concrete evidence against Toby and leans towards other suspects, maintaining her stance that Toby is not the Strangler.

• Angela Kinsey: Remains convinced by the circumstantial evidence and believes Toby's behavior fits the profile of a serial killer.

Despite their differing viewpoints, both hosts agree that the mystery remains unresolved, leaving listeners to ponder the true identity of the Scranton Strangler.

• Jenna Fischer [75:26]: "But we don't know who really is."

• Angela Kinsey [75:30]: "We may never know."

9. Notable Quotes

• Angela Kinsey [32:03]:

  "Michael, this is a person who is bitter, unhappy, jealous, rejected. A loner who had the motive to kill, the ability to kill, and the arrogance to brag about it in front of a camera crew."

• Jenna Fischer [33:15]:

  "There is simply no concrete evidence linking Toby to these murders."

• Paul Lieberstein [53:07]:

  "When conceived, this was simply a newspaper joke."

---

This episode of Office Ladies masterfully blends fan theories with insider knowledge, providing a thorough examination of the Scranton Strangler mystery. Whether you're a die-hard fan or new to the series, the hosts' engaging discussion offers a fresh perspective on one of The Office's most enigmatic storylines.

Transcript

[Jenna Fischer]

I am 50 years old and do you know what I don't want to do on my vacations anymore?

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, probably a few things.

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't want to cram my family into the same one bedroom, room and bathroom. I don't want to.

[Angela Kinsey]

No.

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't want us all on top of each other. I want my own bedroom separate from the children. Which is why I prefer Airbnb. Because we can all have our space and then it's like, makes the whole vacation more relaxing. We can go to bed at different times. You know, I can stay up and read. Or more likely these days I go to bed before everybody else.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know what I love about Airbnb?

[Jenna Fischer]

What?

[Angela Kinsey]

Snacks. You have a fridge, you have a kitchen. So I'm not calling up room service constantly and having to pay that fee. I'm just like, hey, we packed snacks. They're in the fridge. Go get them.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, everyone consider Airbnb for your next adventure. You won't regret making the switch from a traditional hotel. We're going to share a little bit about IXL learning. IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids. It covers math, language arts, science and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way with positive feedback.

[Angela Kinsey]

Here's the thing that I like about it too. These programs are backed by research and studies are done in almost every state in the country. And the kids who had IXL are consistently doing better.

[Jenna Fischer]

Also, IXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. iXL would like us to share some of our own experiences of working on schoolwork with our children. Well, I'll tell you, ixl I can't do fifth grade math. That's what IXL learning is for.

[Angela Kinsey]

Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and Office Ladies listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at.

[Jenna Fischer]

Ixlearning.Com officeladies, visit ixllearning.com officeladies to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. I'm Jenna Fisher.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fischer]

We were on the Office together and we're best friends. And now we're doing the ultimate Office lovers podcast just for you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the office with exclusive interviews, behind the scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.

[Jenna Fischer]

We're the Office Lady 6.0.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hello. Hi.

[Jenna Fischer]

Happy New Year.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's 2025.

[Jenna Fischer]

Woo hoo.

[Angela Kinsey]

Woo hoo. We did it. We all made it through the holidays.

[Jenna Fischer]

We have a fun episode today.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was so excited in prepping this. I got really excited, lady. I even stood up, I paced, I said things out loud.

[Jenna Fischer]

Really? Oh. Should we tell people what we're doing?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. All right. The inspiration for today's episode comes straight from the office fandom. We have been digging online and we have found a lot of office fan theories. You name it. You guys all have an origin idea about something on the show. So based on one of the most popular fan theories that you shared with us, we're gonna do a little detective work. Yes, A little mom detective work. Jenna, what are we mom. Detectiv. Ing.

[Jenna Fischer]

Detectiving.

[Angela Kinsey]

There it is.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. Today we are finally tackling the question. Is Toby the Scranton Strangler? Yes. And we asked you to write in and give us your theories and opinions. Thank you so much, by the way. They were amazing, detailed.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, really good stuff.

[Jenna Fischer]

Our producer, Ainsley, divided your letters into two sections. Those of you who think Toby is the scran strangler, and those of you who think he isn't. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to have a good old fashioned debate using your letters to support our arguments.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our version of a debate. For you hardcore debaters out there, we're.

[Jenna Fischer]

Gonna mess it up.

[Angela Kinsey]

We're not gonna. It's not gonna be like the. The debate, but it's gonna be a debate.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's gonna be a debate.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's gonna be a conversation.

[Jenna Fischer]

A detectives debate.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you. And then after we debate, is Toby the Scranton Strangler? Paul Lieberstein is gonna join us in the studio and tell us what he thinks.

[Jenna Fischer]

And by the way, I say Toby is not the Scranton Strangler.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I say Toby is the Scranton Strangler.

[Jenna Fischer]

And we have not seen each other's arguments. We have not. This is gonna be interesting.

[Angela Kinsey]

Mm. But before we get into our debate, I thought it might be helpful to give a brief history of the Scranton Strangler.

[Jenna Fischer]

Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

Mm.

[Jenna Fischer]

You are doing a summary. This is my favorite day.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jenna's doing like a little shoulder shimmy. Yeah, she's kinda excited about that. Yes. Jenna, you suggested I do this, and I thought, you know what? I'm gonna take a stab at it. Ooh, I said stab. Oh, not strangle. Okay. You know, I'm doing, I guess, my version of a summary. I'm calling it an overview.

[Jenna Fischer]

An overview.

[Angela Kinsey]

Mm.

[Jenna Fischer]

I like it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, please proceed. Here is my Scranton Strangler overview. So the first time the Scranton Strangler is featured is in the sixth season. It was the episode the Delivery. Now, if you remember, everyone is at the hospital waiting for Pam to give birth. And Andy arrives with a gift. He has gotten the newspaper from the day Cece was supposed to be born. This is a very thoughtful gift.

[Jenna Fischer]

It really is. I don't know if we ever talked about how thoughtful that was of him.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. But then he is annoyed because she wasn't born on the day of the newspaper that he framed. So Andy says, I decided to give baby Halpert a newspaper from the day she was born. This frame set me back 55 bones.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then Andy shows the camera the framed newspaper and goes on to say, but she decided to take her sweet time. So now I have to switch it with today's paper. And he holds up the day's paper. Now, look, the original newspaper he framed had the headline as Spring has Sprung. But that day's newspaper, the headline is, Scranton Strangler Strikes Again.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is the first time the audience learns about the Scranton Strangler. It would become a running storyline for the remaining seasons of the show. Besides the delivery, it is mentioned in the following episodes. Viewing Party, Happy Hour, Body Language, Costume Contest, Classy Christmas, Part one, Michael's Last Dundees, Doomsday Jury Duty, the Boat, Dwight's Christmas, and Moving On. And although several other characters reference the Scranton Strangler throughout the series, it is Toby who seems particularly obsessed with this news headline. And ironically, once the strangler is apprehended, it is Toby who ends up on the jury that finds the strangler guilty. After the trial, Toby remains obsessed with the case, and finally, he goes to the prison to confront the man he thinks he wrongly imprisoned.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, Angela, that was an excellent overview.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Guess what? I have. I'm going to take on a little bit of, like, your thing. I have some digital clutter.

[Angela Kinsey]

Is today Freaky Friday?

[Jenna Fischer]

What is happening in this new year?

[Angela Kinsey]

We trading bodies?

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't know.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh. I did a summary. You're doing digital clutter.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, so we once shared that Mindy famously said that the Scranton Strangler was the most pitched storyline in the writers room. They loved this.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, I bet it was fun.

[Jenna Fischer]

And like you said, we were first introduced to the Scranton Strangler in season six, the delivery. Well, I found three Strangler storylines that were pitched but not produced for season seven.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jenna Fischer]

Are you ready, Treasure?

[Angela Kinsey]

What?

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, so I guess over the summer between season six and seven the writers had this big pitch session. They all had to come back from the break with multiple storyline ideas. And here are the three that involve the Scranton Strangler.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

First of all, BJ pitched a storyline that Dwight was gonna try to lay a trap for the Scranton Strangler. This was the card. Dwight lays a trap for Scranton Strangler.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

But there were no other details. Carrie Kemper pitched a storyline similar. You're gonna see a similarity between all three of these pitches. Carrie Kemper pitched a storyline that would be part of our Halloween episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Which is that the Scranton Strangler had called the Scranton Times and issued a warning that he was gonna strangle on Halloween night.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, this guy's got a lot of attitude.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. This was gonna make everyone really scared to go trick or treating. Okay, so Dwight, here's the common theme. Decides to take things into his own hands, and he's gonna take Aaron to a park and tell her to fall asleep on a park bench, and he's gonna, like, lay in wait and accuse her as bait. Yeah. That she's the bait.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, Aaron, don't go.

[Jenna Fischer]

But the strangler never strikes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Was a false alarm all around. No strangling on Halloween after all.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, okay. He's playing games. Yeah, yeah. Dancing with everybody.

[Jenna Fischer]

Maybe some insight.

[Angela Kinsey]

And here I am just adding to the card.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's how our session works, right?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

Then Robert Padnick pitched this story. It was a card that said, extra security because of Scranton Strangler. And in this pitch, as the building manager, Dwight was going to really buckle down to protect everyone from the strangler. He was gonna put up barbed wire and metal detectors. He was gonna get a Doberman. The problem is that this scary dog that was supposed to protect everyone ends up being just, like, a complete love bug. And then everybody just falls in love with this dog. And then I don't know where that was gonna go if we were just gonna have a dog, but these were the three pitches that I was able to dig out of my producer's digital clutter.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know, here's the one flaw with that Robert Padnick card, which is that if Dwight put up metal detectors, he'd never be able to come into the office with all of his stuff.

[Jenna Fischer]

This is so true. I'm sure he had an alternate entrance for himself.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's really fun. We're gonna have to ask Paul about all of that when he joins the show.

[Jenna Fischer]

I have so many questions for Paul.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, well, are we ready for our opening statements? Angela would you like to go first?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. I just want to put this out there. I have never debated anything and I try to follow the little outline you sent me, Jenna. So I'm not sure this qualifies as an opening statement, but here it is. Are you ready? Hello.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's a good start.

[Angela Kinsey]

Welcome, Cassie, Sam, Jenna, and all of you listening out there in the world. Welcome to the first ever office ladies debate. I, Angela Kinsey, am taking the position that Toby Flinderson is indeed the Scranton Strangler. Today, I will prove the true nature of Toby Flinderson and the crimes he most certainly committed. Now, you might say shy, mild natured Toby, the sometimes helpful HR rep who sat quietly in the corner of the annex. Could he really be capable of this type of violent crime? But ladies and gentlemen, I really don't have to say much. Toby will tell you in his own words that he in fact, has a very sinister nature. Furthermore, I will provide hard evidence that reveals that Toby is the Scranton Strangler. Wow.

[C]

I'll allow it. But watch yourself, Counselor.

[Angela Kinsey]

May I approach the bench?

[C]

Yes. Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, that was great. I will start by saying I've also never done this. I was not in debate in school.

[Angela Kinsey]

Me either.

[Jenna Fischer]

I think I did one debate and one history class once in high school.

[Angela Kinsey]

My closest thing to debate is watching. What was that Tom Cruise movie? You can't handle the Truth?

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, A Few Good Men.

[Angela Kinsey]

A Few Good Men.

[Jenna Fischer]

I rewatched that this past year.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, that's the closest I've written to debate. Really good.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. All right, here's my opening statement.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Sam, Cassie, esteemed listeners. Angela, thank you. It is my position that Toby is not the Scranton Strangler. I will present evidence, or rather point out the lack of evidence that shows Toby is not a criminal. And while I personally believe that George Howard Scubb is the real Scranton Strangler, I will also offer alternate suspects, all of whom are more likely than Toby Flosson to have committed these crimes. I believe that Toby believes he convicted the wrong man. I believe he might start a podcast to try to find the real killer. But this is not out of guilt for being the true Scranton Strangler, but rather because Toby's life lacks excitement and the Scranton Strangler trial was perhaps the happiest we've ever seen Toby. His face lights up when given the chance to talk about it. I believe he's grasping at this one moment of excitement. I would like to conclude my opening statement with these words from Celia S. In Plymouth, Minnesota, George Howard Scuba is the Scranton Strangler. And Toby is just a weird man who's obsessed with murder mysteries, probably because his own life is actually so boring. I'm not a Toby hater or a Toby defender. I'm neutral. Toby is just Toby. Not the Scranton Strangler, just Toby. And that's all he needs to be. Toby is Toby. Thank you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I mean, I know we're on opposite sides, but I thought that was really well done.

[Jenna Fischer]

I mean, I thought yours was great, too. Okay, well, listen, why don't we take a break, and when we come back, we will each give our constructive speeches, all right? On our positions.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. If you are hiring, you need Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data. And a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast.

[Jenna Fischer]

I have to imagine if you are in the hiring process, it is because you need some help. And you know what? You don't have time for a bunch of busy work like you need someone.

[Angela Kinsey]

You need help getting help.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes, Indeed is your help to get help, Angela. I love that.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's right. Ditch the busy work. Indeed doesn't just help you hire faster. 93% of employers agree Indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other job sites.

[Jenna Fischer]

And Indeed's matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences. So the more you use it, the better it gets.

[Angela Kinsey]

And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com officeladies just.

[Jenna Fischer]

Go to Indeed.com officeladies right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

[Angela Kinsey]

Indeed.com officeladies Terms and conditions apply.

[Jenna Fischer]

Need to hire, you need Indeed. Angela, you were looking very stylish the other night. You were out on the town. You went to see Rainn Wilson in his play Waiting for Godot, and you had a fashion moment.

[Angela Kinsey]

You guys, I am not good at putting together an outfit. It's something I struggle with. But I went to Quint's and I got the cutest black dress. I was trying to find a black dress that felt a little bit like more cocktail, but not too cocktail. Do you know what I'm saying? It is such a great dress. It's also. It doesn't wrinkle. What do you call that?

[Jenna Fischer]

Wrinkle Free.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, but it was silk. It's amazing. And it was a really reasonable price.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's what's great about quince. You can really treat yourself to these little everyday luxuries at affordable prices. And quince only Works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices.

[Angela Kinsey]

Treat yourself this winter without the luxury purchase price tag. Go to quince.com officeladies for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com officeladies to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Jenna Fischer]

Quince.com officeladies this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January is a time when I feel like we all reflect.

[Angela Kinsey]

Mm.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know, you can really do it any time of the year, but I think, you know, you do feel that reset.

[Angela Kinsey]

You do. It's like you have 365 blank pages ahead of you just waiting to be filled, and you can decide how to do that.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, so poetic, Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, really? Thanks.

[Jenna Fischer]

365 blank pages.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I might have had some help.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, well, I'm going with your book metaphor.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

You could think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you to write these new chapters and create the meaningful story that you deserve to live. How do you like that?

[Angela Kinsey]

I really like it a lot. BetterHelp is fully online and making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide, it has a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of special.

[Jenna Fischer]

And you can switch therapists at any time at no extra cost.

[Angela Kinsey]

Write your story with Better help.

[Jenna Fischer]

Visit betterhelp.com officeladiestoday to get 10% off your first month.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's better help.com officeladies.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, we're back. So when I sent us the little debate structure, it said opening statements, and then we each give a constructive speech, and then we have rebuttal time. Yeah, I don't totally know how that works, but I'm getting out a pen and paper.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, you're gonna write notes to rebut for my rebuttal. Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Cause I think my rebuttal is in real time. Right.

[Angela Kinsey]

I thought.

[Jenna Fischer]

Did you write a rebuttal?

[Angela Kinsey]

I thought. I thought they came at the end.

[Jenna Fischer]

They came at the end.

[D]

I did speech and debate in high school.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, Cassie. Oh, my gosh. Please get in here.

[D]

So you have to listen to each other's arguments, and you can be writing while they're making the arguments, but you want to have a rebuttal against whatever they say and make your argument strong at the end.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[D]

It'll be argument, argument, rebuttal, rebuttal in conclusion.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. All right. So now, while Angela's talking, I'm just writing, but Am I allowed to do things like.

[Angela Kinsey]

Mm.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh. Am I allowed to do stuff like that, or.

[D]

No, probably not. But for the sake of the podcast, I think you can.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Just want to know our rules.

[Angela Kinsey]

I did not write it in conclusion, so I'll have to wing that one.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, I'm winging it because I want to hear what Paul has to say.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh. Our inclusions come after Paul. All right. Okay. Okay. Here we go.

[Jenna Fischer]

Angela, you're up.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Here I go. I feel like I'm in front of a high school classroom. I have all of those feelings of like, oh, no. Okay. I am ready to present my case that Toby is the Scranton Strangler. First of all, let's ask the question, does Toby fit the profile of a serial killer? The evidence says he does. According to the U.S. department of Justice, 85% of serial killers are male and 82% are white. Check. Check Toby. According to the FBI, serial murders often seem normal, have families, or a steady job. Hmm. A human resources rep at a paper company. Again, check Toby. Studies have found that a significant percentage of serial killers come from broken homes. As a result of their trauma, they may suppress their emotional response and may have difficulty empathizing with others. They often suffer from a variety of personality disorders, psychopathy and antisocial personality. Let's see if Toby checks that box off. Hmm. In the episode the Deposition, we learn that Toby's parents divorced when he was a child. Both of them wanted custody and both asked him to testify against the other in court. He was unsure what to do because he loved both of his parents and didn't want them to get divorced in the first place. That was certainly traumatic for Toby. And we learn Toby himself goes through a bitter divorce. Check Toby. Next up, studies also find that serial killers find comfort in their fantasies and dreams that take them into a realm that only they can control. Hmm. Let's see. Does Toby fit that profile? His wife left him. He feels alone. He loved Pam, but she didn't love him back. He has a boss that hates him and bullies him. He can't control his real, so he creates a fantasy life through a character he made up, Chad Flinderson. That is where he can be in control. In fact, one of Toby's mystery novels is titled A Murder for Framing. Toby is sharing his knowledge of how to frame someone for murder. It's literally the title of his book. In the episode Christmas Wishes, Toby, through his cover of Being this mystery writer, reveals how you could put someone else's fingerprints on a crime scene. It happens When Dwight gets quilled by the porcupine, Andy says to Jim, this has your fingerprints all over it. Jim turns to Andy and says, andy, you've got to be kidding me. And then Toby pipes up and says, fingerprints can be planted, you know, with like a severed hand or. What is happening here? Toby is describing how to frame someone in front of everyone. Toby goes on to further say, Chad as a character is a very complex individual and he deals with a lot of personal issues. So Toby checks all the boxes here, folks. And ladies and gentlemen, Sam, Cassie and Jenna. Now that we have established that Toby fits the profile of a violent criminal, let's look at some hard evidence that further proves Toby is the Scranton Strangler. Are you ready?

[Jenna Fischer]

Mm. Mm. You're not doing poorly.

[Angela Kinsey]

You've written three notes. I can't see what they say, but I'm not gonna look on her papers. Okay, here we go. On to my next part. It all started with rejection. Becca N. From Berwin, Illinois, writes in to say, Toby is absolutely the Scranton Strangler. Let me lay out the evidence. Becca, you do a fantastic job, by the way. Sidebar. Becca says, Toby turned his back on his initial passions, the seminary, to get into a relationship with a woman. And it's implied that she ended up leaving him. And now he's stuck in a dead end job where he doesn't get to use his brain. He's very undervalued, not just by Michael, but everyone else. He's constantly bullied and generally mocked and ridiculed. And of course, he was deeply upset by the thought of the police going into his desk because he's hiding something. The killing starts being mentioned after Pam got married. He had an obsession with Pam and is disappointed at losing her to Jim. And that is manifested into a murderous rage. Pam is having another man's baby and someone dies the same day. Then there is the part where the baby is christened. Toby goes to the church and he can't go in. Later he asks, God, why are you always so mean to me? Someone else agrees. Sam K. From Los Angeles in our office. Ladies, episode breakdown the christening. Sam said, you know, who wouldn't want to enter a church because they have a problem with God? And then Sam answers himself. A strangler.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, I feel like that's a little pandering to the jury. Using our jury's own words, bringing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Wait, is this allowed? Is this like, are you. Is this approach the bench moment?

[D]

No, this is absolutely not allowed. And if Sam is the judge, he needs to.

[C]

I need to recuse myself. Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Sam clearly needs to recuse. Cassie is now our only judge.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Sorry, Sam. You're part of the argument. Sorry. All right, now let's point out some of Toby's strange behavior that is prone to being irrational, aggressive, suspicious and sinister. That is further evidence that he is the Scranton Strangler. Number one, irrational behavior. Like out of nowhere saying he is going to Costa Rica. Fan theory from Angela K. Also on this podcast, also in the christening episode, quoted as saying, if you were this Grant Strangler, you would need to have a place to go and hide. He clearly has set up a second residence or even a different identity in Costa Rica. Liv from Vancouver writes in with this excellent point. What are your thoughts on the fact that Toby always keeps his passport with him, mentioned when he's having a conversation with Mrs. California? My theory is that he needs it in case he ever has to flee the country. Who said that? Liv. Liv from Vancouver.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, I have some words for Liv later.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, okay. Well, Liv, get ready. Next up are things that Toby hides. He's actually quite athletic. Proof of this is in Night Out. We also had a fan theory that we shared on this very own podcast from Carolyn gave. She said since Toby jumps the fence with such apparent ease, it shows that he's someone who might be able to escape the police. Is this evidence that Toby is the Scranton Strangler? Jenna. Jenna F. From Los Angeles said she asked Paul about this and Paul's response was. Sounds smart.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay. All right. Judge, Judge, are we allowed to use Paul here? What is happening?

[C]

They're playing fast and loose with this.

[Angela Kinsey]

Why can't I quote like a cop who.

[C]

Who's two days from retirement?

[Angela Kinsey]

Why can't I quote the person who plays the character who also was a writer?

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, boy.

[Angela Kinsey]

All right, all right, next up, you're on thin ice. You have been recused.

[C]

This whole thing's about to go out the window.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, gosh. It's going to be blown out the window. Next up, Toby's aggressive behavior. Like this moment when Clark interrupts Toby and Jim talking. Let's hear it.

[C]

Hey, Toby wanted to ask you a question. Oh, sure. It's a little personal. Let's do it. Let's get personal. I wanted to talk to you about your divorce. Whoa. Sorry, I. No, no, no. What I meant. What I meant's okay. I can handle it. So you guys obviously went through some tough times leading up to us. I was wondering if you ever did any couples counseling. Oh, sure, Lots of times. Yeah. Wait, you and Pam aren't in couples counseling, are you? Oh, God, no. No, no, no. We're just starting couples counseling, which doesn't sound any better. Even you guys. Kelly called it 2013. Hey, hey, hey. No, no. Get out of here, Clark. Get out of here. My mistake. Yes, it is your mistake. He's lingering. He's so annoying. I'm gonna kill him.

[Angela Kinsey]

I'm going to kill him. That's what Toby said when Clark interrupts him. I'm going to kill him. For more suspicious behavior we have in viewing party, Everyone is gathered around Toby's desk watching the police pursuit of the Scranton Strangler. Fans have pointed out a few important things. Number one, where is Toby? Everyone else at Dunder Mifflin is there. We have a fan theory from Angela K. In Los Angeles. Might the documentary film crew have suspected it was Toby all along? And is this why they purposely included this footage in the documentary film? They wanted to highlight the fact that Toby was not at work the day the strangler was fleeing. And there's also something else. A letter from Taylor C. In Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The staff is seated at Toby's desk when his phone rings on the day that the police are pursuing the falsely accused strangler. In addition to attempting to contact him, the caller must have known Toby's extension directly because Aaron was not at reception forwarding the calls. Given he has few acquaintances and hardly ever gets direct calls, this is extremely suspicious and suggests that Toby might be framing George Hauer. Scub. Doug Wye from Spokane, Washington, noticed that the car the strangler used during the chase was previously seen in the background shots of the parking lot of the office. Did Toby provide George with the car? Further part of how to frame a murderer. And then there's Toby's obsession with being on the jury for the case. Jenna, you mentioned this. He seemed delighted. He seemed so happy. Well, many people wrote in and noted that Toby is happy to be on the jury because he knows he got away with it. Someone else is going to pay for his crime and he's going to help make sure of it. He is going to convict an innocent person to cover his tracks as the Scranton Strangler, as he planned all along by framing George. And several people wrote in and noted, including Jennifer G. From Tampa, Florida, saying that they believed that when Toby went to see George in prison, he was going to say to him, I know you're innocent because I did it. He is sinister. He is evil. He has a dark nature. He was proud of this crime. He was taunting him and George strangled him as a response. But lastly, to really show Toby's true sinister nature, let's just hear it from Toby himself.

[C]

We should really have the office's air quality tested. We have radon coming from below. We have asbestos in the ceilings. These are silent killers.

[Jenna Fischer]

You are the silent killer.

[C]

Go back to the annex. You'll see.

[Angela Kinsey]

You'll see. You'll see who the silent killer is. Michael, this is a person who is bitter, unhappy, jealous, rejected. A loner who had the motive to kill, the ability to kill, and the arrogance to brag about it in front of a camera crew. They knew he did it. Toby tells us he did it. Believe him. Toby Flinderson is the Scranton Strangler.

[Jenna Fischer]

Wow. Wow.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, that's as far as I got, guys.

[Jenna Fischer]

I'm gonna say I'm a little surprised to hear that you were not in debate. Cause I thought that was excellent.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, thank you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. Cassie, are debates usually this friendly?

[D]

No, but I love how friendly this one is.

[Jenna Fischer]

We will continue. Okay, well, I guess it's my turn.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, let me just tell you, the jury is feisty in there. The judge has a lot of comments.

[Jenna Fischer]

We lost a judge.

[Angela Kinsey]

We lost a judge. But he's still very chatty. So anyway, I wish you luck.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to present three very strong reasons why Toby is not the Scranton Strangler. Starting with a lack of direct evidence. There is simply no concrete evidence linking Toby to these murders. Now, I will admit there's not a lot of evidence or details of the Strangler's crimes, but we do know a few things. Number one, we know that there was a car chase that led to the arrest of George Howard Scub. And I would ask this question, why did George Howard Scubb run from police and barricade himself inside of an apartment complex if he was not guilty of this crime? Some people have suggested that Toby was driving the car since he is not in the scene where everyone is watching the chase. Maybe Toby ran into the apartment complex and then escaped, leaving George Howard Scubb to take the fall. But here's the thing. Where did Toby get this Mercury Cougar? This is not Toby's car. Angela, you yourself pointed out that in season one, Toby has a photo of a Jeep at his desk. In season two, you're doing what I did.

[Angela Kinsey]

You're quoting from our own podcast, Judge.

[C]

Slight objection, but I'll allow it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you. In season two episode Take youe Daughter to Work Day, Toby drives a silver Saab. And then in season eight, the Garden Party, he's driving a Subaru Impreza. None of the Dunder Mifflin staff are ever seen driving this Mercury Cougar that is at the center of the Strangler case. This would mean that Toby, our underpaid HR rep, somehow has two cars. A strangler car and another car. I doubt that is the case. In Dwight's Christmas, Toby is recounting his theories about the Scranton Strangler, Tanelli. He mentions that they found fingerprints presumably linked to George Howard Scubb. How did George Howard Scubbs fingerprints get on coins found at one of the crime scenes if he's not the Scranton Strangler? Oh, okay. You might notice that none of Toby's fingerprints were found at any of the crime scenes. And if they were, we would know about it because he has traveled abroad and it is customary to provide fingerprints in order to obtain a passport. So clearly, Toby's fingerprints have been cleared. And while Toby might doubt the validity of these fingerprints as being accurate, there have been many cases of police being able to lift fingerprints from money and get convictions, just like they did in this case. Because criminals often think to wear gloves while committing a crime, but not when handling their own money. And finally, I would say that the fact that George Howard Scub tries to strangle Toby during his visit to the prison is pretty clear evidence that George Howard Scubb is the Strangler. But now I'd like to go to character consistency. Per the FBI, psychopaths who commit serial murder do not value human life and are extremely callous in their interactions with their victims. One strategy to assess whether a person is a psychopath is to look at four deviance, distress, dysfunction and danger. Collectively known as the four Ds, Toby's character is largely depicted as mild mannered and empathetic, making it difficult to believe that he is a serial killer. Ellen Kay from Robinson, Illinois said, I don't think serial killers participate in Movember. I would also like to quote Jenna F. From Los Angeles, who said, why would Toby be so worried about us all dying of radon poisoning? If he was the Scranton Strangler, wouldn't he want us all to slowly suffocate? That sounds like the perfect crime. Finally, I'd like to point to some other suspects. Sure you don't believe it's George Howard's Gubb? How about Creed Bratton? Madison S. From Covington, Kentucky, said, everyone thinks it's Toby who could be the Scranton Strangler. Why does no one Suspect Creed. He came into the office during the murder mystery episode and freaked out when Michael, quote, blamed him for murder. And he also had blood on himself in the Halloween episode. Seems pretty viable that it could be Creed. Amber C. From Oregon said, it is definitely Creed. Not to mention Creed's impromptu talking head when the police were searching for weed. And he says, just keep talking until the cops leave. Also, why was Creed in the middle of nowhere on the side of the road hitchhiking to work during work busts? Not to mention the wanted posters in the finale. And Jessica J. From Sweden said, crete has stolen an identity and he's up to so many funky businesses, why wouldn't he be the Strangler, too? And in viewing party, Jim has a line when they're watching the car trace that says, huh, I guess the Scranton Strangler isn't who I thought he was. Pam says, why? And Jim says, because the person I thought it was just showed up to work. And then we see Creed walking in. But fine, you don't think it's Creed? How about Gabe? Alexis L. From Staten Island, New York, said, I think it's far more likely Gabe is the Strangler. It's well established that he enjoys violence and horror. He travels between Scranton and Florida, which makes it easy to elude police. And he's super creepy. Phil C. From Oklahoma said, notice that the killings not only stop after the trial, but also after Gabe goes back to Florida. But not only do they stop when Gabe leaves, they didn't start until Gabe arrived in Scranton. I would definitely be investigating Gabe if I were the Scranton police, but I'm not done. How about David Wallace? Izzy S. From Surrey, England, said, I recently found out some people believe David Wallace might be the Scranton Strangler. Apparently, he sent Holly away just as she was getting close to figuring it out.

[Angela Kinsey]

Approached the bench. What? When was Holly investigating the Scranton Strangler?

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't know. Never mind.

[C]

Objection. Sustained.

[Jenna Fischer]

Sorry, Issy. I liked your argument. All right. Tyson H. From Salt Lake City, Utah, said this at the writer's block panel at the wrap party in Scranton. Greg Daniels. Greg Daniels said.

[Angela Kinsey]

Wait, we can quote Greg Daniels, but we can't quote Paul Lieberstein?

[Jenna Fischer]

Your Honor, continue.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I think this is biased. I got fast and loose. She gets continued.

[C]

You're looking at contempt to court here. Calm down.

[Jenna Fischer]

Greg Daniels said, if the Scranton Strangler was anyone else, it would be none other than Robert California. And, my friends, if anyone possesses the four Ds of deviance, distress, dysfunction and danger, is it Not Robert, California. I have given you three very good other suspects, and one that maybe we're going to throw out, but I still have one more. Jacqueline R. From Orange County, California wrote in to say that she believes Mose is the Scranton Strangler. The evidence, though circumstantial, forms a chilling mosaic of behavior, opportunity and motive.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's very well written.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, Jacqueline really maybe should have written my whole thing. She was great.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's nice.

[Jenna Fischer]

I know. Jacqueline goes on to say. First, Mose's peculiar and antisocial behavior places him outside of societal norms, where many criminal profiles of serial offenders begin. He is almost entirely isolated from society, living on a remote beet farm with limited human interaction, except for his cousin Dwight and a scarecrow. Thank you for making my point, Angela. Mose demonstrates signs of emotional instability, extreme awkwardness and a lack of understanding of social boundaries, traits commonly associated with individuals capable of heinous crimes.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was meaning he loved a scarecrow like he did her and stuff.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, I know what you meant. And I think Jacqueline knows what you meant. Angela, is this your argument? You think someone.

[C]

Is this an objection?

[Jenna Fischer]

Or does a scarecrow also. I'm so sorry. Who quietly took notes while the other person was talking and who is breaking in every four sentences.

[Angela Kinsey]

I am sorry. There was a long period where I listened and then I decided to break in. You had a few things.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, I'm going on. Mose has odd erratic behavior which has been well documented, such as his proclivity for running alongside moving vehicles, screaming without provocation, and displaying an unnatural interest in physical conflict, as seen during his wrestling of farm animals and co workers. Second, Moses physicality and access to tools of strangulation make him a credible suspect. The tools he uses daily on the farm, ropes, chains, other implements, are eerily similar to the potential instruments used in strangulations.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jacqueline, you are doing a fantastic job.

[Jenna Fischer]

Right. Right. You see why I'm ending with Jacqueline here? Third and most damning, Moe's had both the opportunity and proximity to carry out these crimes. Scrant is not far from Schrute Farms and the rural locations offers the perfect hideout for someone evading suspicion. While the documentary crew focused on Dwight's activities, Moses whereabouts were often unaccounted for, giving him ample opportunity to commit these heinous acts without raising suspicion. His ability to blend into the background as a peculiar but harmless farmhand works to his advantage, allowing him to operate unnoticed. In conclusion, I'd like to quote Allie W. From Moorpark, California, who says, ladies, no. Toby is not the Strangler. His only crime is being pathetic and uninteresting and throwing out his baba ganoush in the office trash. Thank you for your time.

[Angela Kinsey]

That was very good. That was very good.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you. Thank you. Now, how do we rebuttal Cassie? Who goes first on the rebuttal?

[D]

See, you just went. So you should rebuttal Angela and then vice versa.

[Jenna Fischer]

So I have to go first now?

[D]

Yeah. And basically, like, if there was any points she made that you want to, like, take down or you have evidence, that would be what you would focus on.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay. Then I will say this. Okay, here is my rebuttal, Angela, to your arguments.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

You paint an entertaining picture.

[Angela Kinsey]

Why does that sound judgy?

[Jenna Fischer]

Toby is the Scranton Strangler, but it's all based on circumstantial evidence. And I believe I proved in my argument that we could paint a number of people in the world of Dunder Mifflin with that same brush if we wanted. But none of your arguments really hold up in court. Divorce trauma. Happens to a lot of us. Are we all serial killers, Angela K. You love fantasy. Are you a serial killer? Also live in Vancouver? You mentioned the passport. I mentioned that Toby's fingerprints would be on record for said passport. We know that fingerprints were left behind and they do not match Toby. But they do match George Howard Scub. And I know. Angela, you mentioned that you believe perhaps in addition to strangling everyone while living a life mostly documented by a documentary crew, Toby had time to murder people and frame another man. You're suggesting that maybe Toby provided George Howard Scub with this car. Really? George Howard Scubb didn't want to mention that. He didn't want to say I got this car from someone else or anything like that when he was being interrogated by police. I think we all need to just admit the police caught the right person. And that person is George Howard Scubb. Thank you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, fantastic rebuttal. Here's my rebuttal. I will start with this. You mentioned, according to the FBI, serial killers do not value human life. I would say to you Toby has a personality where he can compartmentalize people and have no value at all to people who should have value. I will cite the moment when he is willing to ditch his daughter, who he barely sees, to go to Pam's art show. I will cite the moment where he decides to leave his daughter to go to Costa Rica. Toby can compartmentalize. You brought up the radon poisoning. Wouldn't that be the way Toby would finally get us all I would like to point out that people that have these type of personalities, one of the main things they have in common is extreme obsessions with things. Radon, Pam, being on this jury, they lock into something and they get into a loop and it manifests itself in very dark ways. You mentioned the fingerprints, that Toby's fingerprints are on his passport, that they couldn't be at the scene of the crime, that George's fingerprints are there. But we learn from Toby himself that he has studied how you can use other people's fingerprints to implement them in a crime. He literally shared that he studied on how to do this and wrote about it in one of his books. You make compelling arguments, along with Jacqueline about who else could have done these crimes. But none of them had the motive that Toby had. None of them had the rejection, the bitterness, the jealousy, the bullying. Toby's rage is simmering quietly in the annex and it comes out in the form of the Scranton Strangler. Toby is the Scranton Strangler. Don't doubt it because if you do, he will have fooled you too.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, wow.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's my rebuttal.

[Jenna Fischer]

I think all that's left is for us to take a break and come back and talk with Paul Lieberstein all about it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, this was really fun.

[Jenna Fischer]

I agree.

[Angela Kinsey]

Foreign.

[Jenna Fischer]

Peloton is not just bikes people. Peloton has a variety of workouts for whatever era you're in. Holiday era, running era, wellness era, whatever it is, they have classes and motivation to help you get to it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Or what if you've always wanted to try something like bar, pilates, yoga, running, meditation, you can sign up for one of these classes and explore a variety of workouts.

[Jenna Fischer]

So I like to walk in my neighborhood, I like to walk in the fresh air and then I like to do one of the peloton meditations and total body stretches. That is an example of like one fitness thing I'll do in a week.

[Angela Kinsey]

And here's the thing, a lot of times you think, oh, do I have time to exercise? Well, they have 10, 20 or 45 minute time increments of class classes.

[Jenna Fischer]

I usually do the 20. I hit it right in the middle. Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] this is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax Taxes was waiting and wondering.

[Angela Kinsey]

And worrying if you were going to get any money back and then waiting, wondering and worrying some more.

[Jenna Fischer]

Now taxes is matching with a turbo tax expert who can do your taxes as soon as today an expert who.

[Angela Kinsey]

Gives your taxes their undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real time updates on their progress so you can focus on your day.

[Jenna Fischer]

An expert who will find you every deduction possible and file every form, every investment, Every everything with 100% accuracy, all.

[Angela Kinsey]

So you can get the most money back guaranteed. No waiting, no wondering, no worries. Now this is taxes. Get an Expert now on TurboTax.com only.

[Jenna Fischer]

Available with TurboTax Live. Full service real time updates only in iOS mobile app.

[Angela Kinsey]

See guarantee [e-mail] guarantees. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say that can help you protect them. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Jenna Fischer]

And just like that, a state Farm agent will be there to help you choose the coverage you need. No matter where you are in life. When you need coverage options, your state Farm agent is there to help. On the phone or in person.

[Angela Kinsey]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, we are back. Paul Liebestein, AKA Toby, is here.

[C]

Hello, everyone.

[Angela Kinsey]

Welcome to the courtroom, Toby.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, well, you should know that we have entered into quite a hot debate here. We are very excited to get your perspective. Can we start with a little backstory?

[C]

We can, sure.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right.

[C]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

First question for you, Paul, from Kelly W. In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Oh, this is a formal debate.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is a serious debate, Paul.

[C]

All right. Well, I apologize for. For my attitude, your honor.

[Angela Kinsey]

Your honor, can his attitude be noted?

[C]

It's on the books.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. I hope you aren't a hostile witness.

[C]

I may be treated like a hostile witness.

[Jenna Fischer]

That's fine with me. Okay. All right.

[C]

I'm used to it. Aw, Toby. That's the Toby in there.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's the Toby.

[C]

Aw.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, here's your first question. Kelly W. From Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, said, who originally had the idea for the Scranton's strangler? Was he always going to be a recurring character or storyline, or was this something that became a continuous joke through the series? Just sort of organically give us the background.

[C]

So it's difficult to trace this. And I have tried.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's a mystery.

[C]

No, it is. So there's a decent chance it was my idea, but I can't say for sure. And I've been contacting people. So. It first appeared in Charlie's episode. It was like a background joke. The baby episode.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[C]

But he didn't remember writing it.

[Angela Kinsey]

The newspaper headline.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And we just wanted something, you know, because people always get that gift for a baby. So we just wanted, like, an inappropriate.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right. It went from Spring has sprung to Grant Strangler strikes again.

[C]

So I asked Greg if it was his, because I know that he got very involved in the rewrite of that episode and he thought it was mine.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh.

[C]

And then I asked a bunch of other people who seemed to like it and who were around at the time, including a couple of writers assistants, and Danny and BJ and Halstead, and they seemed to think it was mine.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay. This one joke was your idea.

[Angela Kinsey]

And Warren said he thought it was yours as well.

[C]

Yeah. But I can't say for sure. And I would hate to be taking credit for someone else's pitch.

[Angela Kinsey]

You're so kind, Paul. I mean, the majority of the writers think it was you, but you're still like, it might not be me.

[C]

So it kind of sounds like me. Also sounds like Mindy, too.

[Jenna Fischer]

But this was intended to be originally a one off joke gag in the delivery.

[C]

Yeah. It hadn't been for more than that.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay.

[C]

But it kind of grew as things. As things do.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. But I would like to note for the record, again, for the record.

[C]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

When conceived, this was simply a newspaper joke. Thank you. Committed to record. Angela, would you like to ask question number two?

[Angela Kinsey]

I would. And I don't think what you're commending to record proves anything, but. Okay. Paul.

[C]

Yes, Angela?

[Angela Kinsey]

You are aware that people think Toby is the Scranton Strangler?

[C]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

So Aiden B. From the UK says, did Paul purposely write or play the role or plan for it to be as ambiguous as it is? Like, is Toby the Scranton Strangler?

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, I'm curious about that too. When did you all become aware that fans were keying into Toby might be Toby Strangler? Was it while we were still on the air?

[C]

No, it was after we wrapped. So I watched that YouTube video about putting together the very first one that said it might be Toby, and it kind of blew my mind.

[Angela Kinsey]

There are many now.

[C]

Yeah, there are a lot. And I watched a bunch for this podcast, and they were long.

[Angela Kinsey]

Because there's a lot of evidence to prove that he is.

[C]

Yeah. And for other characters, too, right?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes, for other characters that could be the Scranton Strangler.

[Angela Kinsey]

There's a lot of YouTube out there.

[Jenna Fischer]

Mm. Pointing that out again.

[C]

No, it had not crossed my mind that it could be that it would be me. We may have joked that it could be crept around like that.

[Angela Kinsey]

Creed definitely had a lot of different lives that he led.

[C]

Yes. Yeah. Which came out really strongly in season nine, I guess.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[C]

But that's the kind of thing you can do in the very end, right? I guess, yeah. And Creed, I don't know. He existed on a whole different plane. And he loves the idea. He loves the idea that he was.

[Angela Kinsey]

The scrimstrength and that Toby is the one everyone would pin it on. Maybe, if not for George. Well, our next question is this. Mindy said that the Scranton Strangler was one of the most pitched things in the writer's room. She said that if you compiled all the notes, you would have an epic and terrifying miniseries. Do you remember any of the pitches that you guys had?

[C]

No, I think it was a lot of just this person gets strangled. You know, you're looking for. We're looking for twists in the story. So, like, we have this list up on the board, right, of, like, after we write things, like, did we include an inciting incident? Oh, no. You know, it's like the simple things in stories. And so one of them was a twist. You know, is it a straight line to the end? Or, you know, do we go somewhere up with. So I think a twist or, like, second act break commonly could be. Somebody gets strength when we're really stretching.

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, next question. Sir. We also received a letter from Maria H. In Atlanta, Georgia, who said, have you heard the theory that the Scranton Strangler isn't a murderer? Paul Lieberstein famously posted a video on Instagram a few years ago saying that the writers of the Office always intended to include that the Scranton Strangler would just strangle his victims till they passed out, but never actually killed any of them.

[C]

Now, I loved that. I thought that was super fun. I'm not sure everybody was on board for that, but I loved it. Just, like, strangled you and left him there.

[Angela Kinsey]

Massive violent crime, but very, like, I could kill you, but I'm not going to.

[C]

It's weirder. And then it becomes less of a, like, crazy thing. I mean, it gets crazier, but in a way, it's just like, it's not a serial killer, right?

[Jenna Fischer]

It's just a serial strangler.

[C]

It's just like, oh, that was a really bad night when I got strangled and passed out.

[Jenna Fischer]

And then what happened?

[C]

And then you live your life. You live the rest of your life.

[Angela Kinsey]

And he knows. He knows, like, I'm gonna take you to the.

[C]

Yeah. But then we're like, okay, sure, that's traumatic. I'm not saying there wouldn't be some therapy, but it's like, it's too much smaller.

[Jenna Fischer]

So this was just an idea in the writer's room. This fact Never shows up on the show.

[C]

Never shows up.

[Jenna Fischer]

This idea.

[C]

No.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right, because.

[C]

Which means it's not officially in the lore. Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then also, too, that would contradict George Howard Scubb getting the death penalty and life in prison.

[C]

You're right. You're right.

[Angela Kinsey]

You don't strangle someone. Your string of crimes, stringing to passing out, doesn't get you death penalty.

[C]

Yeah, you're right.

[Jenna Fischer]

Wow, Angela, I feel like that is maybe.

[C]

Unless.

[Jenna Fischer]

What?

[C]

Unless he accidentally went too far one night and killed someone.

[Jenna Fischer]

Right.

[C]

Okay, so maybe you don't know what that.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. Well, this leads us to one of our last questions, Paul, in our evidence gathering here. If you could go back and add one additional storyline for the Scranton Strangler, knowing everything you know now about all of the fan interest, maybe it would wrap things up. Would you do it? And if so, what would that thing be?

[C]

No, I probably wouldn't wrap it up for the audience, but Scubb getting out of prison, like, say we had gone another 10 years with Scub, maybe getting out of prison.

[Angela Kinsey]

And would Scub become Toby's friend that he'd always hoped for?

[C]

Or Toby could be very, very scared, you know, or members of the jury could be very scared. Or there could be another strangling while Scubb was in prison.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, that would definitely fuel the fire.

[C]

Yeah. And was it a copycat or did they get the wrong guy?

[Jenna Fischer]

Interesting questions.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[C]

We would do something like that.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

It would have continued.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jenna Fischer]

If we had continued, the Scranton Strangler case was not over.

[C]

No, something like that isn't over ever. We're still talking about the Menendez brothers.

[Jenna Fischer]

True, True.

[C]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. No, that would be the lore of the town for as long as we documented that town and that.

[C]

Yeah, it's a big deal in the town. It's great in size.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

Angela, do you have any more questions for Paul before we get to the question?

[C]

I'm so serious.

[Angela Kinsey]

No, I don't. I think, you know, we learned a lot about Toby today. We learned about his athleticism, how he could just hop a fence with no problem. I would also say that Toby has big hands. I noted.

[Jenna Fischer]

I'm so sorry. What is this? This is. This is not the time for you to present more evidence. You're just throwing out evidence right now.

[C]

What is this?

[Angela Kinsey]

You said to me, do you have anything else?

[Jenna Fischer]

I said, do you have any more questions for Paul? Okay, not, do you want to give a speech about why Toby is the Scranton Strangler?

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. I will just simply say this then, Paul.

[C]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Is Toby the Scranton Strangler?

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't even have to win.

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't even have to win because I won.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is one person's opinion.

[C]

One person's opinion.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's Toby and by the way, one of the showrunners of the Office.

[C]

So here's why he's not the.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, give it to us.

[Angela Kinsey]

All right. All right.

[C]

Cause we wouldn't do that. We're about, like, relatable office.

[Angela Kinsey]

This Dan theory doesn't exist in the realm of what would we normally do.

[C]

I'm saying this should be part of. Of the theory.

[Jenna Fischer]

Part of the reason why he is not.

[Angela Kinsey]

Is you have to break the fourth wall and say the writers wouldn't do that.

[C]

Well, okay, if you weren't breaking the fourth wall, then you would just say it's too unlikely. This is like an Occam's Razor kind of thing. Like. No, the most likely thing is generally the truth, where the guy convicted is guilty of the thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[C]

You know, it was a trial, but yeah, if you're willing to break the fourth wall. And I've been thinking about this a lot over the last.

[Angela Kinsey]

Let's hear it.

[C]

24 hours of watching all those videos is just, you know, we always search for, like, the thing that people were experiencing, which sometimes this is like a proximity to a big story, but not an actual part of it. So I feel like that would have been something we would have probably pitched broken. We would have had a version of it and ultimately decided, like, no, this is not our show.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right. This is not.

[C]

We're like, we shouldn't do this. This is a.

[Angela Kinsey]

This would be jumping the shark moment.

[C]

Yeah. For sure.

[Angela Kinsey]

If Dunder Mifflin had an employee that was a serial killer.

[C]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, so I guess that's my next question. Toby is not the Scranton Strangler. Does that mean that Creed, Robert California, Gabe David Wallace. Nobody is the Scranton Strangler. No one from our show, George Howard Scubb.

[Angela Kinsey]

No one in the world is the.

[Jenna Fischer]

Scranton Strangler or was he wrongfully convicted? That maybe we don't know. Is the Strangler still out there? That's a whole other question.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people are wrongly convicted, right? Every once in a while. Once in a while.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, so.

[C]

But generally. Generally not. I don't know.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay, well, maybe the cliffhanger here is. Is George Howard Scub the Scranton Strangler or not?

[Angela Kinsey]

We may never know.

[Jenna Fischer]

We may never know.

[Angela Kinsey]

We officially.

[Jenna Fischer]

Mom.

[Angela Kinsey]

Detected of it. What? Cassie?

[C]

No, definitely never.

[Angela Kinsey]

Know, Cassie's raising her hand.

[D]

Angela, I want to give you props for, like, your debate. Even though you lost, there was something you brought up that I kept thinking about. And you said that when George is driving the getaway car, that car had been parked in the Dunder Mifflin parking lot before. Yes, of course, that's a production thing, but in the world of Scranton, I think that would be grounds for him to have an appeal, because what is that about?

[Angela Kinsey]

And then I also wondered if all.

[C]

Of Scranton, I mean, that could have been his. He could have worked in the office park, but wouldn't have known or had business. To me, all that.

[Jenna Fischer]

Wouldn't we have known? Wouldn't we? I mean, we got so excited when the car chase went past our building, which is interesting because he clearly knows our street.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, that's what I was gonna say. Of all of Scranton, you know, there is some statistic and I had it, but I don't have it with me now that a lot of times crimes are committed nearest where people live. And that's why a lot of times when people commit a crime near, close to where they live or work, they do a much harder job at trying to hide it because it willit's very close to their circle of where they live. So the fact that he drives down the street where his car is also parked, and while he's driving down the street of all of Scranton, that is where Dunder Mifflin is. And then Toby's phone rings as he's driving in that area, I think that did cause some suspicion about how is this person connected to the world of Dunder Mifflin?

[C]

Yeah, the phone ring. I don't get. I don't get how that points to Toby.

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't get how that points to Toby either.

[C]

Yeah. And then so maybe he stole a car from the office park since he lives in the area.

[Angela Kinsey]

So he definitely lives in the area.

[Jenna Fischer]

I think so that car could.

[C]

But we know he lives in Scranton, so he's gotta live somewhere.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. And that car could belong to someone Advanced Refrigeration or any number of other people who work in the building. And so maybe he did steal the car, but I feel like we would have talked about that in the office. And maybe we did, and the documentary crew didn't get it, but I think we would be like, oh my gosh, did you hear that such and such Leo's car from Vance Refrigeration was the one that the Grant and Strangler stole and drove down the street?

[C]

Yeah, you'd think that would get around.

[Jenna Fischer]

That would get around.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

Or what?

[Angela Kinsey]

Maybe it was Bob Vance.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, no. Don't reopen this can of worms.

[Angela Kinsey]

Maybe it was Bob Vance.

[Jenna Fischer]

Go there.

[Angela Kinsey]

He looks a little shady, like he could have some other things happening on the side.

[C]

Shady, but that's different.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know.

[C]

Yeah. I don't see it as Vance.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. I know. I was just playing.

[C]

I know you're playing. I know you're playing. Well, you don't think this is a real court of law?

[Angela Kinsey]

Toby. Toby, I called you.

[C]

Where's the jury? Look around, Paul.

[Angela Kinsey]

I took an online course. I'm certified now. I am certified.

[C]

Do you see a jury in this room?

[Angela Kinsey]

I do. Sam and Cassie.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. Cassie, I am curious. Before Paul gave us the definitive answer and I won because I picked the right side, who were you gonna award the win to? Based on our debating?

[D]

Yeah. You both had great arguments and everything. I do think Angela had the hardest job. But, yeah, I would have given it to you, Jenna, because to me, Oh, I don't think Toby is this Scranton strangler.

[Angela Kinsey]

I will also say this. Jenna proudly said, because I picked the right argument. We just said we both have to pick one. What do you want to do? And Jenna was like, I'll. I said, okay, fine. I'll say he is.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, Ang, I want to say, I might have been awarded the win by both Paul and Cassie, but I would have awarded you the win because I thought your debate was just fantastic today. I really, really did. I was like, oh, no. I was sweating it when it was my turn. So I feel like we both won today. And you know who I really think wonderful? The office, ladies Community.

[C]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Jenna Fischer]

Really? Truly.

[Angela Kinsey]

And, Paul, you're in studio with us.

[Jenna Fischer]

This is so fun.

[C]

I know. It's so great.

[Jenna Fischer]

Before you go, can you tell us about your project with Audible, your show, Middle Space?

[C]

Oh, yeah. I love.

[Jenna Fischer]

I want people to listen to it.

[C]

I want people to as well. Middle Space, all one word. But the full title is the Rebels Attack. And then the other side attacks as well. And it is one of the funnest, silliest things I've ever done.

[Angela Kinsey]

Will you tell us sort of the world of it?

[C]

Yes. So we're in space.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay.

[C]

Let's call it the Future, I guess. And Will Forte stars as this captain. He's so funny, who starts off very early that they get a distress call and he decides not to go.

[Angela Kinsey]

Not to take the chase.

[C]

Not to go.

[Jenna Fischer]

Doesn't feel like it.

[C]

And he doesn't feel like it. He doesn't want to.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[C]

And that's his reason. He just doesn't want. And he's that kind of captain, and he just kind of wants to float around in space. And he's very interested in getting out of the space business, captaining business. He'd like to get into fast food and goes around interviewing a manager of an intergalactic burger chain. But it is, you know, four and a half hours of not a single mission. It's just life in space. And it's very like, anti sci fi.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, Jenna, you might like it.

[Jenna Fischer]

I am not a sci fi fan, but I love this comedy spin on sci fi. Like it's a satirical take on sci fi adventure.

[Angela Kinsey]

I have a question.

[C]

It was really fun. It's a great cast. John Malkovich narrated.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

And we had a lot of great people in there.

[Angela Kinsey]

I have one question.

[C]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Throughout the whole time where he's looking at how to become a fast food worker, are there more distress calls that come through that he just continues to ignore?

[C]

Yes. He ignores all work. Go. They would like to mutiny, but they're not quite capable of pulling that off because that takes a lot.

[Angela Kinsey]

It takes a lot of effort.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, you gotta kill someone. You don't want to do that. In the end.

[Jenna Fischer]

He might listen to Mel Robbins, who likes to remind us all the time that I don't want to is a perfectly acceptable reason to not do something.

[C]

To not do something. And Rain's in it, and he plays a. The rebel leader.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, great.

[C]

And he has. He calls up one of the people on the ship, is in contact with the rebel leader. Clark. Clark Duke is in.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, Clark is in it.

[C]

And Clark plays someone on the bridge who's very upset that we're not taking the distress calls. Taking the distress calls or really doing anything. You know, he doesn't know what his life's about if he's not doing something. So he gets in contact with the rebel leader and he calls him up and his son answers and they have a great conversation. And it's played by Henry, my son. And we did it kind of like word by word. He was really young at the time, and it's so cute and so funny.

[Angela Kinsey]

I can't wait to hear that, Paul.

[Jenna Fischer]

I love that.

[C]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, we'll include all the information in our Instagram and our website with links so you guys can go and listen.

[Jenna Fischer]

That is so cool. And then, Paul, just one last thing. You know, we've put a period at the end of the sentence. Of one fan theory, and I hate to open a window here on another.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, I see what you did there.

[Jenna Fischer]

But the last time we saw you, we discussed your particular pet peeve, which is that the windows of the Dunder Mifflin building, the interior and exterior windows do not match.

[C]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

Would you like a moment to speak to that?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Because you're very passionate about this.

[C]

I am. This bugged me so much, and no one seemed to care at all.

[Jenna Fischer]

This is your radon. This is your radon. What radon was to Toby. These windows are to you.

[C]

So we. We set the windows, obviously, in Culver City, right when we were down there. We moved to the Valley in season two. Right outside of that building had those big, wide glass things. And then the inside of our windows were these very small, kind of like three by six rectangular windows. There's no way they match. I mean, it's startling. And then the view from anybody's. Any one window, we would change all the time depending on what we wanted to see.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's true.

[C]

And that pissed me off so much too. It's just like, no, out that window has to be this one thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

And they're like, nope, it doesn't matter.

[C]

It doesn't matter. And then I broke it too, and we needed to kind of like, see Michael hop a train. I picked that window to be outside, you know?

[Angela Kinsey]

That's great.

[C]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

You're part of the problem.

[C]

I'm part of the problem.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, do you feel any better now that you've just gotten to speak to it?

[C]

I think at one point I was like, let's not. Don't point the camera up. Don't see the building. Just keep it low. People are gonna freak out. It's not gonna be okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's not the same windows.

[Angela Kinsey]

And so clearly, no doubt.

[C]

And the. No one cares.

[Angela Kinsey]

Crickets.

[C]

They point it up.

[Angela Kinsey]

I hope today there's someone listening out there. Paul, that was like. I always wondered about the windows.

[C]

I just probably ruined the show for somebody.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, Paul, thank you so much for joining us today.

[C]

Thank you for having me on. It's so good to see you guys.

[Angela Kinsey]

So good to see you, too. And we have settled the fan theory. Is Toby the Scranton Strangler? Toby is not.

[C]

Not.

[Angela Kinsey]

But we don't know who really is. Is it George? We don't know.

[Jenna Fischer]

We don't know.

[C]

We can assume.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you, everyone, for listening to Office Ladies this week. We will see you next week with our super fan breakdown of the fire.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. And you guys, be sure and check out Paul's audible show Middle Space, and we'll see you next week.

[Jenna Fischer]

See you then.

[Angela Kinsey]

Might have one that was very Barry White.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fischer]

Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins, our audio engineer is Sam Kieffer, and our associate producer is Ainslie Bubbico.

[Angela Kinsey]

Odyssey's executive executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Reese. Dennis.

[Jenna Fischer]

Office Ladies is mixed and mastered by Chris Basil.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.