Mike Schur is Back!

Summary

Office Ladies — “Mike Schur is Back!”

Release Date: July 29, 2026
Hosts: Jenna Fischer & Angela Kinsey
Special Guest: Mike Schur (writer, producer, director, author, and “Mose” on The Office)

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Overview

This episode welcomes back Mike Schur, one of The Office's original writers (and the actor behind Mose Schrute), for an in-depth discussion that travels through iconic episodes he penned, the writer's room processes, character arcs, and Mike’s new book about fandom. The conversation is filled with behind-the-scenes insight, heartfelt memories, writerly wisdom, and plenty of laughs, making it a can’t-miss for Office fans and anyone curious about how great television gets made.

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Main Topics & Discussion Points

1. Catching Up & Life Updates

Timestamps: 02:27–09:25

• Jenna and Angela are back from a short break and update each other on their lives.
  • Angela's kids are doing summer college prep programs; discussion about how much tech (apps) is now part of daily life. (04:42)
  • Jenna prepares her family for a red carpet premiere and recounts the stress/fun of figuring out what to wear. (05:25–07:47)
  • Banter about the prospect of doing theater together and the roles they'd want to play. (08:03–09:25)
  • "I don't want the lead. That's too much pressure. ... I would just like to be someone that makes a lot of entrances." – Angela (08:09)

2. Introducing Mike Schur

Timestamps: 09:33–13:00

• Jenna and Angela reminisce about Mike’s original 2022 appearance (virtually), the growth since, and highlight that Mike is now joining them in-person for the first time.
  • Recap of Mike’s previous interview: getting his job, playing Mose, and lessons from Greg Daniels.

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In-Depth Conversation with Mike Schur

3. Reflections on Time, Aging, and The Office’s Legacy

Timestamps: 13:00–14:18

• Reflecting on the passage of time (20 years since the first SAG award for the show).
  • "One day per day. And when I see people from The Office, I think, like, yeah, that's how the person looks." – Mike (12:40)
  • Noting milestone anniversaries and how living in L.A. and working with The Office shaped Mike’s life.

4. Writing the Early Days: “The Alliance”

Timestamps: 14:34–18:51

• Mike recounts the season one writers’ room process (very small group; many episode pitches for few slots).
• "Dwight asking Jim to form an alliance Survivor-style" as a key episode seed.
• The importance of “yes, and...” in storycraft:
  • "It’s a classic improv thing, right? If you say no, the story ends. If you say yes, you get a story." – Mike (16:53)
• Favorite moments: The “spy scene” in the parking lot (Jim and Dwight) on a blazing hot day, pretending it’s Scranton in November.

5. Branching Out: “Valentine’s Day”

Timestamps: 18:53–24:08

• Mike details Michael Scott’s trip to New York—what it meant for breaking the show out of its usual constraints.
  • Michael’s “favorite pizza place” being Sbarro (a lasting fan reference; 20:14).
  • The episode addresses the question: “How did Michael Scott get this job?” (Peter Principle), showing a range of competence among branch managers.
  • Fun backstory: Nick Offerman auditioned for a minor role, didn’t get it due to scheduling, but Mike saved his name—and later cast him as Ron Swanson in Parks & Rec.
  • "If you like an actor, they did a good job—actors don’t grow on trees. Save them and use them in something." – Mike (25:33)

6. Nuanced Craft: “Branch Closing” and Emmy Justice

Timestamps: 25:49–31:44

• Angela’s love for “Branch Closing”; appreciating small jokes like “Stanley doesn’t grow on trees.”
• The episode’s abrupt emotional pivot when Jan announces the branch is closing.
• Mike talks about Steve Carell’s Emmy “robbery” and his Emmy-worthy performance:
  • “He was the funniest person in America and he was the best actor on a comedy in America by a wide margin.” – Mike (28:55)
  • Angela’s candid Emmy night reaction: “Mother...” (29:49)

7. Building Character Arcs & Season-Long Stories

Timestamps: 32:15–42:11

• How Season 3’s “Jim goes to Stamford” arc was conceived:
  • The necessity (after Jim/Pam’s cliffhanger) for Jim to really leave, not just return for season three.
  • Casting Ed Helms and the painstaking process of shaping Karen (Rashida Jones) as someone the audience could realistically root for, not just a plot device.
  • Greg Daniels’s “General Sherman” analogy—a love triangle that splits audience sympathies 50/50, not a simple villain or obvious mismatch.
  • “Half [the audience] is rooting for him to say, ‘I'm sorry, Pam, you missed your shot,’ and half ... for him to go with Pam.” – Mike (36:59)

8. Writers’ Room Wisdom & Specificity in Comedy Writing

Timestamps: 43:16–55:46

• Mike’s personal favorite: “The Negotiation” (“super-sized” episode), merging three strong storylines:
  • Dwight’s hero moment saving Pam from Roy (mace), and Angela’s secret pride/attraction.
  • "Citizens do not accept prizes for being citizens." – Dwight, via Mike (44:00)
  • The subtlety of Jim doing something good for Dwight (keeping his Angela secret) as payback.
• Greg Daniels's process: deeply collaborative, teaching the writers actual story structure, bringing actors into edits and deeper discussions.
  • Jenna: “I left that show a better actor.”
  • Mike details a formative email exchange with Greg about editing "The Alliance" where Greg demonstrates his thorough logic and care in every production choice.
• The “every episode should reveal something new about every character” rule:
  • Mike recounts Greg pushing him to find a more interesting gift for Angela at Secret Santa, leading to the "babies dressed as adults" poster, which ended up driving future storylines.

9. Exploring Fandom: Mike Schur’s New Book “Big Fan”

Timestamps: 56:01–65:19

• Big Fan (written with sportswriter Joe Posnanski) is an exploration of what it means to be a fan—sports, music, or anything else.
  • Mike describes the hilarious, communal experience of the World Darts Championship and what it reveals about human enthusiasm.
  • Juxtaposition of “stocky, expressionless men throwing darts” vs. the crowd in wild costumes.
  • Book research included attending sports events (darts, Olympics, baseball, wrestling, Taylor Swift, Dead & Company, etc.) and analyzing what makes fandom so universal and emotionally resonant.
  • “Fandom... is satisfying some kind of deep emotional need,” as explained by interviewed professor Daniel Wann (66:59).
  • Engaging discussion about fanship, community, triumph, and the inherited nature and legacy of sports devotion (see below).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Writing and Writer’s Room Culture:
  “Greg threw us into the deep end of the pool in the best way—I had never written on anything before. ... And now, 20, 30 years later, I’m realizing how atypical it really was.” – Mike (47:24)
• On Story Structure:
  "[It's] a vibrant laboratory ... The lessons I learned ... are very deeply embedded in my brain." – Mike (48:30)
• On Representation and Growth:
  “Every episode ... you should learn something new about every character if you can... That poster becomes the centerpiece of an entire other episode.” – Mike (54:47)
• On Fandom’s Deeper Purpose:
  “It must be the case that sports fandom, and fandom in general, is satisfying some kind of deep emotional need ... it’s drilling down into our souls.” – Daniel Wann (as quoted by Mike, 66:59)
• On Sports and Loss:
  “... when they finally won [the World Series in 2004] ... a guy walked to his dad’s grave, put the hat and champagne down, and saw 11 other people ... speaking out loud to people in their graves." – Mike (72:19)
  • “Of all the unimportant things, soccer is the most important.” – Pope John Paul II, as quoted by Mike (73:52)

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Notable Moments & Easter Eggs

• The Sbarro reference from “Valentine’s Day” still inspires fans to take and post photos at actual NYC Sbarro locations (20:14).
• Nick Offerman’s “Good for Something” folder story: every actor might get a second shot (25:32).
• Angela discusses Rashida Jones's real-life advice: “That person is too emotionally expensive for you.” (42:31)
• Fangirling over shared Taylor Swift concert experiences, even comparing it to weddings (62:24).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|:--------------:| | Life updates & catching up | 02:27–09:25 | | Mike Schur introduction | 09:33–13:00 | | Writers room/memory lane | 13:00–14:18 | | “The Alliance” breakdown | 14:34–18:51 | | “Valentine’s Day” breakdown | 18:53–24:08 | | “Branch Closing” / Steve Carell’s Emmy | 25:49–31:44 | | Season 3 arcs (“Stamford” etc.) | 32:15–42:11 | | “The Negotiation” and structuring comedy | 43:16–47:13 | | Greg Daniels, writing craft & anecdotes | 48:35–55:46 | | Introduction to “Big Fan” | 56:01–65:19 | | The nature and meaning of fandom | 65:19–73:52 |

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Conclusion

Mike Schur’s return to Office Ladies is a treasure trove of memories, creative process, and genuine affection for The Office and its legacy—from episode blueprints and intricate jokes to what makes fans (and family) really tick. His stories, humility, and craft insights will delight long-time devotees and newcomers alike.

Angela: “We’re so thankful for our Office community and the Office Ladies fans ... We love Mike Schur. ... I’m going to put a link to [his book] in our stories.” (73:52)

Mike: “I love talking about The Office. I’ll talk about it forever. Anytime you want me to come talk about The Office, I’ll come back.” (74:20)

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For further reading and listening:

• Big Fan by Mike Schur and Joe Posnanski – Book Link (check Office Ladies stories for direct link)
• “The Office Alliance” (Season 1), “Valentine’s Day” (Season 2), “Branch Closing” (Season 3), “The Negotiation” (Season 3)

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Summary by Office Ladies Podcast Summarizer
Stay tuned for more episodes—and more deep-dives—into all things Dunder Mifflin!

Transcript

[Jenna Fischer]

All right, lady, we already know that we love quints, but you just bought something new and I want you to tell me about it.

[Angela Kinsey]

All right? I wanted some little summer dresses. And what I love about Quince is they're just fantastic quality and they're priced really well. One of the dresses that came up that I loved was this 100% European linen sleeveless swing dress. Jenna, you would love it because it's a light linen, so it's great for summer. It's $64 with code. Office ladies. I can't wait. You're going to get free shipping. You're going to get really easy 365 day returns. We love Quint. It has everything you need for this summer.

[Jenna Fischer]

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[Angela Kinsey]

had a ton of volleyball tournaments that we've been going to cause our son plays. And so we're in the car for like hours driving to these. And we've gotten into audiobooks as a family and we're listening to them on these long car rides.

[Jenna Fischer]

What are you listening to?

[Angela Kinsey]

Right now? We're listening to Project Hail Mary and it is so good. And I haven't seen the movie, but I'm so into the audiobook.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, I just finished listening to an audiobook. I listened to strangers. It's sort of the book of the moment. And it was wonderful. I would listen to that while driving my kids to all their summer camps. So you can now get access to audiobooks included with your Amazon Music unlimited subscription. So if you need company while you're washing dishes, walking the dog, or exercising, this might be your place to go.

[Angela Kinsey]

Amazon Music is your 1 app for music podcasts and audiobooks. Your Amazon Music unlimited subscription now includes access to audiobooks.

[Jenna Fischer]

Download the app today and start listening. I'm Jenna Fisher.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fischer]

We were on the Office together and we're best friends. And now we're doing the ultimate office lovers podcast just for you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the Office with exclusive interviews, behind the scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.

[Jenna Fischer]

We're the Office Lady 6.0.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hi.

[Jenna Fischer]

Hello there.

[Angela Kinsey]

What's up?

[Jenna Fischer]

What's up with you?

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't know. You're kind of got that look that, I don't know, is something going on? You have that look. You're like, ew.

[Jenna Fischer]

No, I'm just excited to be here because we're coming back from a little bit of a vacation.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's so funny.

[Jenna Fischer]

And so I'm just, like, excited to be sitting here face to face, and

[Angela Kinsey]

I'm like, what's going on?

[Jenna Fischer]

I know. What have you been up to? I haven't seen you in two weeks, lady.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh. Well, okay. Our kids are doing these summer, like, college programs where you go to a university. They had to apply and they go to a university. Isabel and Jack are doing this. They live in a dorm for four weeks. They take a course. They get three college credits out of it. You know, they're going to be seniors in high school next year. Yeah, but this is like a true, like, hey, here's what college is going to be like a little bit. Right? It's a little practice run.

[Jenna Fischer]

Because you, like, moved them into the dorm room. Like, they're getting a whole dorm room thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, yeah. They each have roommates that they didn't know until they got there and signed in. They found out who their roommate was. You know, we had to do that thing where we got bins and we labeled everything and we packed it all up and we got there, and the two different dorms, they're in one of them. The line for the elevator to move in was so long. Cause everyone showed up with their parents. So Isabel was on the fourth floor. Josh is like, let's just take the stairs, lady.

[Jenna Fischer]

What?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. We moved her in. Just walking upstairs all day carrying things. And Josh is very fit. I am not as fit.

[Jenna Fischer]

So you are fit, but there's a difference between, like, you have a type of, like, tennis fitness.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

It doesn't translate to, like, carrying heavy

[Angela Kinsey]

things, stepping and climbing.

[Jenna Fischer]

Right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Anyway, so I am sitting. But we got them moved in. By the time you guys hear this, they will have completed their program. But that's what I've been up to. I've been packing up two teenagers and taking them off to this college and getting them moved into a dorm room. And now they're there. And, like, we get calls like, Isabel's like, I'm going to do laundry, but they don't take coins anymore. I'm like, what? How do you do laundry? I would save up my coins.

[Jenna Fischer]

Of course. A Ziploc bag full of coins for the parking meters and the laundry.

[Angela Kinsey]

I didn't even think about it. It's all an app. There's, like, the laundry.

[Jenna Fischer]

Don't get me started.

[Angela Kinsey]

Do you know how many apps they've had to download? There's so many apps.

[Jenna Fischer]

We don't want to look at our phones that much. But, like, you need an app for everything. We got a garage door, and the garage door guy was like, do you want an app on your phone to open and close your garage door? I said, I don't. You know what I want? I want a freaking button that I hold in my hand.

[Angela Kinsey]

Give me a clicker. Give me a clicker, please.

[Jenna Fischer]

He was like, settle down, lady.

[Angela Kinsey]

No.

[Jenna Fischer]

I couldn't believe I triggered you asking you about an app, but I was like, well, you did.

[Mike Schur]

I know.

[Angela Kinsey]

Everything's an app now. Yeah. Anyway, it's good to see you. How have you been?

[Jenna Fischer]

I've been good. You know, Lee's movie Nimrods comes out very soon.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know.

[Jenna Fischer]

And we are trying to figure out our red carpet looks. Cause, lady, the whole family is walking the red carpet, and we've never done this before. So, number one, I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. Like, what is that? How do I prepare them for that experience? What's the impact of that experience gonna be? But then also, what are we wearing?

[Angela Kinsey]

Like, are you gonna coordinate?

[Jenna Fischer]

These are the questions we're asking. I don't think so. That feels too complicated.

[Angela Kinsey]

It feels like a.

[Jenna Fischer]

And too precious.

[Angela Kinsey]

It feels like a Christmas card. Right? Right. You don't need to be a Christmas card tableau. And I love a coordinating Christmas card. Don't get me wrong.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, I know.

[Angela Kinsey]

But maybe for the red carpet. You all have your own looks.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, we all have our own ideas. I know. Isabel did a red carpet once, and you gave me her dress that she wore. It's beautiful. And you were like, one day, if Harper ever needs it. And she was around this same age.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. My friend had produced the movie Mulan, the Live action.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And we went and saw it, me and Isabel and Jack. And Jack wore a suit, and Isabelle wore a dress. It was really cute. We got it at the mall. It's really a cute dress.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Well, unfortunately, the dress doesn't fit.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was worried about that because I gave it to you, like, two years ago, and I'm like, I don't know if it's going to fit her.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah. I don't even know where to get clothes for myself for the red carpet.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know.

[Jenna Fischer]

I don't know what we're all gonna wear.

[Angela Kinsey]

I hate red carpets.

[Jenna Fischer]

I know.

[Angela Kinsey]

I'm excited for the movie. I will be on the red carpet with you.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes, you will.

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't have an outfit.

[Jenna Fischer]

No. We should really be thinking about this, because it's happening. I know.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's exciting.

[Jenna Fischer]

The movie comes out August 14th, everybody. In theaters worldwide.

[Angela Kinsey]

Worldwide. Global.

[Jenna Fischer]

Global release. Oh, but also, lady, they are doing special early screenings of Nimrods in select theaters. It's happening on Tuesday, August 11th. So everyone check the listings at your local theaters and see if they have one of the early screenings. My folks, my sister, and some of my high school friends, they all got tickets to one of the early screenings in St. Louis.

[Angela Kinsey]

Aw.

[Jenna Fischer]

I know. I'm so excited for them to see it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, it's such a fun movie to see with a group of people in the theater.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes, in the theater. Because, of course, there's all the great music in it, too. You want to hear that and see that on the big screen. So everyone, please grab your friends and check out Nimrods.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's so fun. We're gonna be in a movie, Lady.

[Jenna Fischer]

Together.

[Angela Kinsey]

Together in the theaters.

[Jenna Fischer]

Very exciting.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's so exciting. We've been on a TV show together.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yep.

[Angela Kinsey]

We have written a book together. We have done a podcast together. We have never been in a movie together.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, my gosh. The last thing would be, like, if we did a piece of theater together.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, that would be so cool. I don't want the lead. That's too much pressure. I want to tell you right now, you can be the lead. I would just like to be someone that makes a lot of entrances. I so fun. I love it. When I go see a play, the person I want to be is like, let's say you're at a restaurant, and it's the waitress that comes in and out, and she has a little business, and she says something. Then she's back out, and she's back in with some more something else she's carrying and saying, I want to be that person.

[Jenna Fischer]

When we were in New York, I saw this play called the Ballisters. Oh, my gosh, Lady. It's so funny. It's about a neighborhood association meeting. It happens in a living room, and it's a series of meetings, and it's all about whether or not they should put a stop sign on a road or not.

[Angela Kinsey]

I would love that.

[Jenna Fischer]

It does not disappoint. And it's so good. And it's filled with all these amazing characters, and there are, like, two characters that, like, in another 15 years, you would be so perfect as great entrances. Just like drop mic comedic timing. You'd love it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Yeah, I'll put it on my list.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay. 15 years. There's, like, two older women in this, and we could pick which one we each want to be, and then we can be in a play together when they revive the Ballisters.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fischer]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

There it is. We figured it out, you guys. We had a lot of banter here because we haven't seen each other, but we have a fantastic episode today.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. We had the most amazing conversation with writer, producer, director, and author Mike Scher. He was in studio with us, and we cannot wait for you to hear this interview.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's so fun. He's so smart. It's great. We talk a lot about the Office. So, you know, you guys, last time when Mike was here, it was in 2022, episode 107 of Office Ladies. It's a great listen. If you haven't heard it, he zoomed into the studio. We didn't actually have him in person that time, so it was really fun to be sitting across the table from him today. And in that first interview, we talked with him about how he got his job on the Office. We talk a lot about him playing the character Mose.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

And what that was like. And also what he in the writer's room and what he learned from Greg Daniels about writing comedy. That is a great interview. I didn't think we could top that with him. And then today we dive into his episodes that he wrote.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. We asked him if we could just sort of take him through some of the episodes that he wrote and his memory for detail, for lines and specificity and just how a story was crafted or how a joke was crafted. Oh, my gosh. And he was so generous with his time. And then we had an amazing conversation about his book that just came out. It's called Big Fan. He wrote it with his friend Joe Posnanski, who is a sports writer, and they just traveled around the world trying to discover what makes you a fan of something like sports, music, tv. Yes. And what that phenomenon of fandom is to us as human beings.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's a great conversation.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. And in the Mike Schur way that he is, he just has a way of understanding people and what makes us human.

[Angela Kinsey]

He's a great observer.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes. Yes. And so we just can't wait for you to hear it.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, why don't we take a break? We will save our chit chats and around the town for Our next episode. Because we thought we were going to chat with Mike for about 25, 30 minutes. You guys. We talked for an hour, but it's not so good and you're gonna love it.

[Jenna Fischer]

We want you to hear it all. So we'll take a break and we'll be right back with Mike Scher. You've got a big day. So you use unstoppable scent boosters to give your laundry nonstop freshness. So no matter how long the day goes, you can't stop.

[Mike Schur]

This power, this walk, this pose, this strut, this look, this talk.

[Jenna Fischer]

Your clothes will be so fresh you can confidently strut into that end of the day meeting like a boss.

[Mike Schur]

Boss, Boss, boss, boss, boss, bosses. Let's talk in my office.

[Jenna Fischer]

Add new Unstoppables beads to your wash for 24 hour non stop freshness so you can smell unstoppable. Whoa.

[Angela Kinsey]

Here we go.

[Mike Schur]

Hello.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hi, Mike.

[Mike Schur]

I am so happy to see both of you. How have you been? How is everything?

[Jenna Fischer]

We're good.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

How are you?

[Mike Schur]

I'm great.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's so great to see you. You look literally the same.

[Mike Schur]

I was thinking the same thing about you. I don't know if you're supposed to say that to people. No, I. Look, we all are aging exactly the same rate. One day per day. And when I see people from the office, I think, like, yeah, that looks. That's how the person looks. Like if you've known the person continuously, they just stay the same in your brain.

[Jenna Fischer]

But you know what's crazy? So I was cleaning my SAG award the other day.

[Angela Kinsey]

You were what?

[Mike Schur]

First of all, incredible. Way to start a sentence.

[Jenna Fischer]

I know, right?

[Angela Kinsey]

I've never cleaned mine.

[Jenna Fischer]

I was dusting.

[Mike Schur]

You've never cleaned your SAG Award?

[Angela Kinsey]

I haven't. An idiot.

[Mike Schur]

Did you not consult the manual for proper maintenance?

[Angela Kinsey]

I haven't. And also, it has a tush, so, you know, it does.

[Mike Schur]

Anyway, is it like taking care of an infant?

[Jenna Fischer]

A little bit?

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't know. I haven't thought about it. Go on, Jenna.

[Jenna Fischer]

I was moving things on my bookshelf in my office and, you know, so I was cleaning my SAG award and I looked at the date on it and it said 2006. And I was like, wait, whoa, that was 20 years ago.

[Mike Schur]

20 years ago.

[Jenna Fischer]

What?

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, I know. We're passing all those milestones now where you see things on social media. That's like the 25th anniversary of something. And it's hard to believe, but. Yeah. I mark this every June 1st. Cause I moved to LA on June 1st, 2004 to start working on the show. And so every June 1st I'm like, oh, wait, how many years has it been that I've lived here? And now it's 22 years that I've been here. We started working on the show, I think like right after July 4th weekend, maybe the writers met for the first time. And that is inconceivable to me. I mean, it feels like both forever ago and also yesterday.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, well, listen, the last time you came on the show, we talked a lot about like how you got your job on the show and how you became Mo's and all those things, but we didn't get a chance to dig into some of the specific episodes that you wrote.

[Mike Schur]

Great, let's do it.

[Jenna Fischer]

So we were thinking maybe we could talk about a few. So speaking of the early days, the alliance, it's season one of the Office and you guys are trying to establish what is the American version of this, Right? How do we make it our own thing? Can you take me back to that time?

[Mike Schur]

Yeah. So that first season it was just me, Mindy and BJ were the only full time writers and then the late Lester Lewis. RIP was a consultant and Larry Wilmore was a consultant and Paul Lieberstein was a consultant and it was a very small crew. And in classic Greg Daniels fashion, we came up with 270 episode ideas to make five episodes. And I want to say the alliance, one of the things that is going on in the first season of the British Office is the threat of downsizing and the threat of consolidation and a branch closing and that sort of stuff. It sort of runs in the background. And Greg wanted to maintain that because it was and is such a part of corporate life that you're always like, is someone going to buy our company and are we all going to lose our jobs? And so he wanted that theme to run through the season in a low grade way. And the simple nugget of the idea was that in this kind of vague threat of something bad happening in the Office, that because Survivor was such a big deal at the time, people forget. Survivor had debuted, I think in the year 2000 or something. And around 2004, it was the biggest deal. It still is a huge deal, but it was the biggest deal. And I wanna say it was bj, my memory might be failing me who pitched the idea of just Dwight asking Jim to form an alliance with him, Survivor style. And we like that idea, obviously Jim and Dwight, famous antagonist. But the breakthrough was that someone pitched I'd like to take credit for it, but I don't know if I can, that. Jim's response was absolutely, I do. Like, instantly, I was gonna ask you

[Jenna Fischer]

about that because that's such a famous couplet that comes back later.

[Mike Schur]

It was absolutely, I do. And then the talking head that comes after it is, anytime Dwight asked me to do anything, my response is absolutely. Because Jim's sole goal in life in that moment is to enjoy this mundane business environment in any way he possibly can.

[Angela Kinsey]

Just escape the boredom.

[Mike Schur]

Just escape the boredom. And it's one of the great lessons of writing that I've learned a hundred thousand times, which. It's a classic improv thing, right? It's like, yes. And it just say yes. If you say no, the story ends. If you say yes, you get a story. So as soon as we came up with the idea that Dwight makes an absurd request of Jim, and Jim's immediate response is, yes, then, okay, we're off and running. So that was the simple nugget of the story. And then it became like, how does Jim enjoy, like, torturing Dwight and enjoying his life in this boring day and sharing it with Pam? Of course, my favorite scene that came out of it is the one that's sort of a spy scene from up top looking down at them in the parking lot, and they're standing outside. And it was as it always was in the valley, 111 degrees. But it was supposed to be like November in Scranton. And so the two of them just are grabbing their arms in the classic pose. A person.

[Angela Kinsey]

I'm cold.

[Mike Schur]

I'm cold. Which we would then do 50 more times over the course of the first couple seasons and having that private kind of survivor like conversation about how to play things and what they've learned and all that stuff. So that was it. It was. What made that show so special to me was like, that's what you needed for a story. You didn't need a gigantic, huge plot. You needed one of the ridiculous characters to make a request of a sane character and have the sane character decide to go along with it for the day. And that was

[Angela Kinsey]

to look at the office now, like, the next time I watch an episode and be like, okay, who's the ridiculous character asking the same character to do something.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, and it's usually Michael is the ridiculous one asking Pam or Jim or someone to do something. Go to Hooters or whatever it was. It was either a sane person doing something sane and watching the lunatics respond, or vice versa, like a lunatic doing something lunatic. And then the same person's responding.

[Jenna Fischer]

You also wrote Valentine's Day.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

And this puts the character of Michael Scott in New York City.

[Mike Schur]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

There are so many funny moments. What was it like to do that? Like, you're from the east coast and so seeing New York City through Michael Scott's eyes.

[Mike Schur]

So that was season two.

[Jenna Fischer]

Season two.

[Mike Schur]

And it was the beginning of Greg wanting to expand the world of the show occasionally, rarely, but saying, like, we can break out a little bit of the rule we had stuck to, which is every episode happens in one day, and every episode happens inside the walls of the office or on the grounds of Dunder Mifflin. So we had this idea that he would go to New York. There were two really important things that I think came out of that episode. The first was like, let's take a skeleton crew to the city, walk around with Steve Carell, and just do a bunch of jokes in the room. I remember we called it Michael Scott's New York. That's how he thought of it was like. Cause his whole thing is, I'm an expert. And so we thought it would be really fun to put him in Manhattan, a place where, like, you've gotta, you know, spend a lot of time in Manhattan to be an expert on it, and he is not. So the joke I wrote, that's probably the most famous joke of that episode is the one where he talks about taking the camera crew to his favorite pizza place. And it's a sparro. Yeah, it's the one that comes back to me the most still to this day.

[Jenna Fischer]

I mean, people post online pictures of themselves in front of Sparrow in Manhattan. Yeah. And saying, you know, yeah, gotta get a new.

[Mike Schur]

That episode is largely about him and Jan and him believing that he has a relationship with Jan that he does not actually have. But this was the other really important thing about that episode. From a world building point of view was a question that had been asked many times of the show by critics and fans and all sorts of people, was how did this dummy get this job? How did Michael Scott get this job? And Greg had thought it out very carefully. It was a living example of what's called in corporate structure the Peter Principle. Right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Which is where we know the Peter Principle we've discussed.

[Mike Schur]

Right. People who do a good job at their job are then promoted to a position in which their skills have run out and are no longer qualified for it. But it was still a question of, like, okay, even given that this guy has done a lot of ridiculous stuff, so how do we justify it? So the whole point of this episode was we were like, we're gonna see four guys, including Michael, who have Michael's job at different branches. Two of them are gonna be demonstrably more competent than him, and one of them is gonna be less competent. And, like, we are going to absolutely show that there are people who have his job who are dumber than he is. And that was that character who just was like. I thought this was more of, like, a meet and greet kind of idea.

[Angela Kinsey]

He's very funny, too.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, he's very funny. Craig Anton, I think is his name. And so Michael does something kind of important, too, in that episode, which is he has made a ridiculous video. The CFO David Wallace, has asked him to make a presentation about his branch. Numbers, facts, revenue streams, stuff like that. And instead, in classic Michael Scott fashion, he decides to make a video that's like a heart string tugging, kind of like, these people matter to me. And he presents that video, and David Wallace's reaction is like, wow. But also, do you have the facts I asked for? And the key thing is that he does. That was like, a big deal.

[Jenna Fischer]

He passes out these really nice spiral bound.

[Mike Schur]

And it was a demonstration that even though he's an absurd person, he's not incompetent. He knows what he has to do. And he was hoping that David Wallace would start crying because he was so moved by his video that he would see what Michael sees in the incredible people of Dan Dundermiff and Lescranton. So that was the whole purpose of that. Besides, obviously advancing the Michael JN Relationship was like.

[Angela Kinsey]

Cause she gives him a kiss at the end.

[Mike Schur]

She does indeed. She's surprised by his. That he owns up to the relationship and takes the fall for it and protects her. And she's sort of pleased with how he handled it that she ends up giving him what he hoped he was gonna get, which was a romantic Valentine's Day New York moment. There's another very important thing that came out of that episode for me and for America, when we auditioned people for that role that Craig Anton did. And it was very funny. And one of the people we saw was Nick Offerman.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh.

[Mike Schur]

And he auditioned for it. And we were like, that guy's really funny. But then it immediately came to us before we could, I think, even offer him the part, maybe that he had a conflict. And the conflict was he was shooting an episode of Will and Grace at the same time because he is famously married to Megan Mullally. So I wrote the name Nick Offerman on a Post it note and stuck it to my computer as a reminder to me that this guy had auditioned and was really funny. And then three years later, when Greg and I were developing Parks and Rec, I was like, oh, that guy. That guy's really funny. And he came in and read for a bunch of parts and ended up playing Ron Swanson. And when the show ended, I saved the post it note.

[Angela Kinsey]

Nice.

[Mike Schur]

And I had it framed. And in the intervening time it had been. It had fallen off my computer and been stepped on. So there was like a footprint on it and some random phone number was also written on it or whatever. And like put it in a frame and gave it to Nick as a present at the end of the show. That was where I first saw him.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, I'm so glad you told that story. For any, like, aspiring artists out there who have gone to an audition and then they don't get the part, but like, you might be on a post it note on someone's computer, like, that might grow into something in three years.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, it was wonderful the way it all worked out and it taught us a really important lesson, which was, and I think this started at the office. If it didn't, it definitely started at Parks and Rec, or we took it to Parks and Rec. We used to have a folder on our computer that called Good for Something. And it would be like, we would audition people for roles and then if we didn't cast them but we liked them, we would just take their audition and throw it into that folder. And then in a future episode, if it was like, oh, who can play this part? We would go through that folder and look at all those auditions and we'd go, oh, that lady was funny. We'll get her to do it. And people would constantly on Parks and Rec show up and be like, I didn't audition for this. How did this happen? And we're like, well, you auditioned for that thing a year ago and we found you and we liked your audition and saved you. And most of the actors always had that same reaction, which was like, thank you so much.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes.

[Mike Schur]

But for me it was like, well, why wouldn't you do that? It's like you like an actor. They did a good job. Actors don't grow on trees. Save them and use them in something.

[Angela Kinsey]

Two things. One, I think it's very Michael Scott of you that you stuck it on your computer.

[Mike Schur]

It is very old timey.

[Angela Kinsey]

I usually, I did tidy up, but I normally have post it notes and I open my laptop in there here, because I don't want to forget. But then also you said, actors don't grow on trees, which made me think of branch closing. Because I watched it this morning and I love. Oh, my gosh. Yes. It's always been one of my favorite episodes. And I was like, I haven't watched it in a bit since we first broke it down. But did you write, stanley doesn't grow on trees?

[Mike Schur]

I believe I did, yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Because you just said it, so it might be just deep within you.

[Mike Schur]

Show me that farm where. Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Were Stanleys and Phyllis'.

[Mike Schur]

Stanleys and Phyllis'.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's such a good episode. It made my morning. I watched it with a cup of tea.

[Mike Schur]

I remember thinking, like, that's season three.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, it's season three.

[Mike Schur]

And I remember thinking. I remember watching that episode, watching Steve specifically in that episode and thinking like, this is an actor at the height of his powers. It's a great showcase for him for a couple reasons. One is the very first scene is Jan coming in and saying, this branch is closing. And he just is usually on the show. Like, there's a little bit of a ramp in, you know, like, starts with some slice of life, and then Michael has some dumb thing, and then whatever. Eventually, like, a couple minutes in, the premise has sort of sprung. That episode. Jan walks in and he's like going, jan Levinson, Gould, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then she just goes like, levinson in the morning.

[Mike Schur]

Just call me Levinson in the morning. And then she's like, I'm here to tell you the branch is closing. And so 30 seconds in, he gets the worst news of his life. And that monologue that talking head he gives of, show me that farm is so good. And it's like he has so deeply internalized the degree to which this offices his entire life. It's an incredible performance. And I remember that was the year not to divert the conversation too much into something that doesn't really matter, but that was the year that. That everyone was like, steve Carell is going to win the Emmy for Best Actor in a comedy. It is a foregone conclusion. In fact, it was such a foregone conclusion that that year they had Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart present the category because it was going to be a Daily show correspondence reunion on stage, and they were going to give it to their friend Steve Carell. And then, I believe Ricky Gervais ended up winning for the show Extras, which was a BBC show that HBO had just bought and thrown on the air. And he wasn'. It was one of those deals where they showed a Black and white photo of him on the screen. And they were like, ricky Gervais isn't here. So instead, we're going to give this to our friend Steve Carell. And then Steve jumped up and ran on stage and bowed and everyone cheered. But I remember thinking of all of the robberies that occurred from folks who worked on the Office over the years. That season three best actor in a comedy was number one on my list because he was the funniest person in America and he was the best actor on a comedy in America by a wide margin. And I always think of that performance in. As Exhibit A, in that argument.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, he's fantastic in it.

[Jenna Fischer]

And he never won an Emmy for the role of Mikey.

[Mike Schur]

He never did.

[Angela Kinsey]

Never did.

[Jenna Fischer]

When I speak to acting classes, I remind them of that fact that you can do the best work.

[Mike Schur]

You be the very, very best at what you do. Yeah, I know. At this point, it's like you can make a better cast and show out of the folks who have never won than the folks who have won, I dare say. And he's, you know, he's the.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, they had a camera on us. I've told this story before. We were in a row together. It was like Jenna and John and me in the same row, and Steve was in front of us. And, you know, when they're announcing the nominees, the camera guys just run right up and they just put a camera on.

[Mike Schur]

Right in your face.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, right in your face. And so it's right in Steve's face. And then we're directly behind him. And when they didn't say his name, I guess I said, mother.

[Mike Schur]

I mean, that's the correct response.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. And I had one or two, two friends say, did you say mother? I think I saw you say that. And I'm like, yes, Yes, I did.

[Mike Schur]

It came out of me. I didn't have a choice.

[Angela Kinsey]

I couldn't believe it.

[Jenna Fischer]

I couldn't.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I, you know, so many of us couldn't because he was amazing.

[Mike Schur]

The other scene in that episode that I think of when I think of how great he was is the one where. So the plot is that he and Dwight decide that they're going to go to David Wallace's house and just, like, stop him and, like, make their argument why Scranton shouldn't close. And he never saw. They just end up spending the entire day outside his house. And he and Dwight are sitting there at the end when it looks like all is lost. And he just says, like, all right, top three. What are your top three moments ever Your three favorite moments at Dunder Mifflin. And Dwight names a couple. One or two things I think we've seen in the world of the show, like the concussion, like when Michael took

[Angela Kinsey]

Dwight, took him to the hospital. Dwight gets a little emotional.

[Mike Schur]

And there's also one thing I think that we didn't see that was a reference to something that happened before the documentary started shooting. And then Dwight says, what about you? What are your top three moments? And he says, all of them. Every single moment. Every single moment was wonderful and perfect and special, and it's really a beautiful moment. And then Dwight says, what about when Jan came and told you the office was closing? And he's like, God damn it, Dwight.

[Angela Kinsey]

It was so perfect. Dwight, like, just who he is.

[Jenna Fischer]

He's so literal.

[Mike Schur]

He's extremely. He made every single moment. Well, I can think of one that he also.

[Angela Kinsey]

They did this great thing where Dwight is gonna practice being David Wallace, and Michael's gonna plea his case why they can't close Scranton branch. And Dwight just very matter of factly is like, well, it's a dying business, for one. And it's like, it just comes down to numbers.

[Mike Schur]

It's just math.

[Angela Kinsey]

And he's so matter of fact. And Michael's like, stop it. Stop it. He's never gonna say that.

[Mike Schur]

Well, there's a wonderful moment that was improvised between the two. I think the way it ended was Michael was like, just start over and be more scared of me. And so Dwight goes back, and he wasn't supposed to do this, but rain walked up again, and Michael says, like, David Wallace, and Rain goes and jumps backwards. And we had to cut it off. Literally the frame where we cut it off is the last frame before they both started laughing. It's a good memory of that moment.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, it was really fun to rewatch it. I highly recommend, guys.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, since we're talking about season three, this is actually a question I want. The arc of season three is such an impressive arc. You have the whole storyline of Jim going to Stanford. You had to create this whole other branch. You had to fill it with people who were then going to come merge with the Scranton branch, and then some of them stay. Like, you had to cast Rashida Jones. You had to cast Ed Helms. It was this massive, ongoing storyline. Can you talk a little bit about how that was created, some of the conversations in the room and how far into the season did you. When we started shooting.

[Mike Schur]

It's a great question. This was a big swing that Greg decided to make, which was at the End of season two, after Jim and Pam kiss, and Pam sort of lets him down in her mind, easy. But for him, not very easy. Greg was like, he's gotta leave. We can't just start season three with him back at the office. It's not sort of following through on the story we've told. The story we've told is that Jim stays in this office because of Pam. And so if he makes a play for Pam and Pam turns him down, he's going to leave. So he had an general with Ed, I remember, and we were all Daily show fans. And so we were like, ed Helms is here. That's fun. And we came into that season and Greg was like, jim is going to leave. He's going to go to another branch. We're going to meet an entire group of people who work in that branch, and then at some point early in the season, they're going to fold together, the branches are going to merge. So the important people were Ed's character, Andy Bernard, Rashida's character, who was going to be Jim's new love interest. Because Greg was like, when Jim comes back, he's got a girlfriend. That was a huge thing too. And then the manager of the office, who was Josh, who was going to play an important role in the story in that he was going to seem like an incredibly competent, well functioning, high functioning manager who was clearly better than Michael Scott at managing, but was also kind of a self interested guy who didn't really care about the office and was going to leverage this corporate upheaval for his own gain. Which led to one of my favorite Jim lines where when that is revealed, when Jim's say what you will about Michael Scott, he would never do that. Which was like, that was the whole storyline that was laid out.

[Angela Kinsey]

And Charles Eston was great.

[Mike Schur]

He was so good. Yeah, he was really great. He was a perfect, just like, handsome, charismatic guy who everyone was psyched to work for. And the hardest part, obviously Ed, you cast, because Ed's hilarious and he is a guy who you're like, well, this guy will fold naturally into any ensemble and will be wonderful and great.

[Angela Kinsey]

Can I say one thing about that episode? When they find out in branch closing that Scranton is going to be closed down, he goes up to Jim at the Stanford office and goes, in your face. Jim's like, I don't work there, I work here.

[Mike Schur]

Of all of Krasinski's tiny line readings, it's one of the tiniest because he goes, hi, in your face. And John goes, well, I work Here now?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Mike Schur]

You can barely hear him. He speaks so quietly. It's wonderful.

[Angela Kinsey]

But anyway, I'm so sorry. So Ed, obviously, Ed is like, cast that guy.

[Mike Schur]

He's great. He's a New England prep. Like, I was delighted because Andy Bernard is everyone I grew up with in Connecticut. Like, I was like, oh, I can write this guy forever. Like, wind me up and set me loose. The hardest part was Rasheeda, because this is one of the hardest things to do in any show, right? Is there are two people on the show who are soulmates. It's very clear that they're soulmates. And they are going to, at some point, get together. And Greg was like, if they get together, they're staying together. We're not doing Ross and Rachel, which they did, obviously. Incredible. Incredibly effectively, over 10 years, which is like, get together, break up, get together, break up over and over again. He's like, when Jim and Pam get together, they're gonna stay together. He always kind of knew that. So what we needed for the obstacle was a woman who Jim could date who was a good match for him. He also didn't want to do a move, which I think is kind of crappy and slightly misogynistic, which is you give the protagonist of the show a girlfriend who's just a terrible person, either cheats on him or browbeats him or is self or is mean or whatever, and it's cheap. Cause it makes the audience just, like, root for Jim and for the person to go with you or the other person. And Greg was like, that's just fake. You know that's fake. And Greg, he had this very, very Greg like analogy, which is he told the story. I want to say it's General Sherman in the Civil War.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Schur]

It's a classic Greg thing.

[Jenna Fischer]

Amazing.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Can you tell it while laying on his back, stretching his 100%?

[Mike Schur]

He did, yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

His hamstrings.

[Mike Schur]

He was lying on the floor on the dirty floor of the writer's from history. Was that. I think it was Sherman. It might have been Grant or I'm getting all of this wrong. But it was. An army was marching south through the US and the opposing forces, the Confederate forces, were very skilled fighters. And even if they were outnumbered, they could win a theoretical battle if they knew where they were going. So if Sherman were marching on Richmond, Lee would marshal all of his forces in Richmond and be ready for him. So what Sherman did. Did, according to Greg, was to drive his army halfway between two possible destinations, halfway between Richmond and Atlanta. So Lee would then have to send half of his army to Richmond and half to Atlanta. And then at the last second, Sherman would break towards one of them, and then he would only have to fight half of the Southern army and would win. And he used this analogy by saying, we have to create a girlfriend for Jim who is compelling enough and a good enough match that half of our audience is rooting for him to say, I'm sorry, Pam, you missed your shot. And half of the audience is rooting for him to say, get rid of this lady and go with Pam. And so that required a lot of things. One, some good stories where Rasheeda was funny and interesting and compelling and smart and cool. And it required an actor to play that role that people wouldn't hate. And so we looked forever. We tried so many different versions of. Of, like, just combing through the other shows and seeing, like, what actors have been on these shows who seem good and funny and whatever. I met Rashida my second day of college, and we've been friends ever since. And so I was obviously, like, quietly being, like, cast Rashida. And then she had met John already, and so John liked her and was, like, pushing for her. But Greg famously indecisive in these moments. Or I guess the indecisive is not the nicest way to say it. Thorough would be the nicest way to put it. That he exhausts every avenue of possibility. And we looked and looked and looked and eventually settled on Rasheeda. And then the challenge became, in, like, six episodes, introduce her and build her into a person who at least some of the audience was like, wait, I think she's a better girlfriend for Jim than Pam is. And that was really hard. And that took, like, most of the time of the writers room, and the time between season two and season three was spent just doing that of, like, how can we, like, meticulously form a character that audiences are really. It was very hard.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know what I think worked about it is that I liked Karen as a woman. Like, I wanted to go to lunch with Karen. I wanted to be friends with Karen. I'm like, oh, this is a woman I'd want to spend time with. She's cool.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

And they seemed like exactly what you're saying. Like, Jim and Karen seemed like a couple who were compatible enough and had enough fun that they'd have, like, a three year relationship and then break up.

[Mike Schur]

Right.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know, like, Pam aside, Jim was not gonna end up with Karen in the long run whenever he met her.

[Mike Schur]

Right.

[Jenna Fischer]

But this was, like, a solid choice this was like a person to spend three years with.

[Mike Schur]

She was cool. Yeah, she was cool. She was smart. She was good at her job. She was funny.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah.

[Mike Schur]

A huge breakthrough for the writers was the Christmas episode that year, which was extended, which Jen Salata wrote, I wanna say, and which was so good. And Harold Ramis, the late Harold Ramis directed and was so good that it was the first time that the cut came in at like 42 minutes, as it always did. And instead of cutting it down to 21:30, Greg went to the studio and was like, we should make this a two parter. We should make this an hour. And we ended up shooting another, like writing and shooting another, like six or eight minutes of stuff in order to then boil it down to the best 43. But the plot that mattered so much was, was that Karen and Pam were on the same team.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, yeah, it was like Churchill. Right. Like, nothing brings people together like a common enemy.

[Mike Schur]

Yes. And so there you were.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, there I was.

[Mike Schur]

And like that. But that pitching out that story was a huge relief for us because we were like, right. The story of this doesn't have to be a rivalry between Pam and Karen. It can be that, like you said that Pam is like, I kind of like this lady. I want to be friends with her legitimately. Not as a way to weasel my way back into Jim's life, but just because for Pam, life in that office could be pretty lonely in terms of ladies that you can hang out with and talk to. And suddenly, here's one right here, and she's cool. And so in the slow, deliberate, sort of brick by brick construction of Karen as a character, that was like a huge. That we were like, oh, there should be an episode where they happily and joyfully find themselves on the same team.

[Angela Kinsey]

I think shout out too, to Rasheeda, because she just has a natural presence as Karen that puts you at ease.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And that's her just instincts as an actor. And then also in real life, she is one of the coolest people you'll ever meet.

[Mike Schur]

That's the thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

She is like, you know, I took a trip with her. Like, we've talked about this before. I went and did this work with this non profit that helps save the world's oceans. And Rashida and I went together and there are still things she said as we traveled to Belize that I still say to people.

[Jenna Fischer]

Emotionally expensive.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's one of them. She said. I kind of was going through some stuff and she was like, angela, that person is too emotionally expensive for you. And I Was like, what? This is brilliant. The other thing is, she gets on a plane. She's like a professional. She has so many locals lotions and she hydrates and she's like, my friends call me Lotions and Potions on planes now. I bring hand lotion and chapstick on a plane. And I think of her.

[Mike Schur]

She was. I mean, again, I'm coming from a medium sized town in suburban Connecticut, but even so, when I met her on the second day of freshman year of college in 1993, she was the coolest person I'd ever met. And now, 33 years later, she is still the coolest person I've ever met.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I think to wrap up this part of our office convo, we wanted to ask you. And this is one of those questions when people ask me, I'm like, oh, it's so hard. But do you have an episode that you wrote that's near and dear to your heart?

[Mike Schur]

I mean, all of them, obviously. I will say branch closing. I was very delighted in how it all turned out. I think the one that I think of the most is the negotiation, which was one of the super size Y ones, which I was so happy about because there was so much going on. It's the one that starts with Dwight spraying mace at Pam's boyfriend and stopping an attack.

[Angela Kinsey]

And Angela's titillated by it and keeps having everyone retell the story.

[Mike Schur]

So this was the best part of it was Roy comes in and Dwight maces him. He's about to attack Jem and maces him. And that's a great beginning to an episode, right? That's so exciting. And then a bunch of stuff has to branch out of that. Cause the story that we had for Michael was that Darryl wanted to renegotiate his salary because Roy had been fired. And now he was like, okay, I'm stepping up and whatever. And so that whole thing, that whole story is huge. And they go to the corporate offices and he talks to Jan and it also flips. And Dale. Darryl finds out how much Michael makes and is humiliated for him and is like, you gotta get a. Like you have to get a raise so that I can get a raise, you know? And it's a real Craig Robinson showcase that whole episode. But then the B story was Jim feeling like he owed Dwight a debt of gratitude and was like, how do I pay this guy back? And he tries all these silly ways to pay Dwight back. And Dwight, in his weird code of honor, is refusing to accept a payback. Cause he says, citizens do not accept Prizes for being citizens. Is that what he puts it? So both of those stories were so great. It was like, put Michael Scott and Craig Robinson in a room together and send them off, and it's going to be great. And also Jim feeling a debt to Dwight that he's trying desperately to fill because he hates the feeling of owing Dwight something fantastic. The problem was, the best episodes of the show were always ones where everyone was involved. And you're talking about two huge stories where it's just Michael and Craig, really Toby at the end, and then Dwight and Jim. And so this was a risky maneuver, but on my. When I went off to write it, I was like, I'm going to add another story. And the story was that Angela heard the tale of heroism for Dwight and was turned on by it and kept asking other people to, like, well, I didn't really hear what happened. Can you repeat the story? And she's doing. Fingering her necklace. Yeah. And then the wonderful thing that came out of it was that Jim had hit a wall where he just couldn't figure out how to pay Dwight back. And he came out of the bathroom at the end and saw Dwight, because Angela has gone up to Dwight and been like, I've heard of some incredible tales of heroism, and there's no one in the Office, they think. And they start making out, and Jim sees it and he gets so excited, and he's like, I. And then he realizes and says, I'm never going to say, and that is how I will pay Dwight back. And it was like the perfect dovetailing of stories that involve everyone in the Office entirely. And so the way that all kind of coalesced into a big, giant, fun story. And then we had this wonderful thing for another bunch of episodes, which was that Dwight thought that no one knew, and Jim, his worst enemy, knew this thing and wasn't telling anyone. And I think it just made Jim really likable. And he was, like, doing a nice thing without Dwight knowing it, which was just like a really sweet little backstory, you know?

[Angela Kinsey]

Aw.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah, I love that.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, that one was really fun. And I was so happy that it was super sized because it allowed us to keep all that stuff in the episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You're so, like, just fun to talk to. You are. You're just. You're smart and you remember things well, that.

[Mike Schur]

I mean, look, I've said this the last time I was here. Like, that show was so formative for all of us. Like, it taught me everything I've ever learned. About writing and about story creation and about working with actors and all that stuff. It was such a vibrant laboratory is how I think about it. Greg threw us into the deep end of the pool in the best way. I had never written on anything before. And there I was on the set dealing with directors and talking to actors and in the edit bay making editing decisions I didn't know that isn't typical. And now, 20, 30 years later, I'm realizing how atypical it really was. And so I've tried in my life now, running different shows, to replicate that process. It's not easy. It requires a lot of faith in the people that you hire. And it requires a lot of time to walk people through all of the mistakes that they make when they don't know what they're doing. We all made horrible mistakes and wasted enormous amounts of time making terrible editing decisions. And even then, I was aware of how special it was. The lessons I learned and the moments that stood out, like, are very deeply embedded in my brain. And I don't think they'll ever leave.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know, I'm really moved by you saying that. Like, I got a little choked up because it is such a gift that Greg gave all of us, the actors, too, Bringing us into the process so intimately. Like, I left that show a better actor. Better, because I knew everything that was happening besides just my acting. Because he brought us into the edit bay and into conversations and into the writer's room. And so seeing how a story was crafted and why it was important, and like, little things, like, I don't know, like, you get a line or you get a scene, and you're like, I don't get it. Like, he didn't just say, do it. Cause I wrote it. He'd be like, let me tell you where we're going with this. And you're like, oh. Oh, I gotcha.

[Mike Schur]

It was obvious to me very early. I think I told this story the first time I was on your show. But my meeting with him was, like, two hours long. And it was very different from all the other meetings I had taken. And I sent my agent an email when I left and said, I don't know if that guy's gonna offer me a job, but if he does, I'm gonna take it. Cause I think he's gonna teach me how to write.

[Jenna Fischer]

Yeah.

[Mike Schur]

And he did offer me the job, and I did take it. And he did teach me how to write. And so I knew from the beginning, beginning that this was a person I could learn from. And then the Process of that first season of breaking stories and slogging through all these different versions and everything sort of made it clear. But then the first episode I wrote was the alliance, and he was editing it and I was working on the Comeback, this first season of the show, the Comeback on HBO at the time. And so I wasn't able to be around a lot. And he was like, hey, we just finished our first assembly of the alliance and I'm going to send it to you so you can look at it. So I watched it and it was completely different. Obviously, it was completely different. The first cut was 38 minutes long, and this one was 24 or whatever. And I remember watching it and my heart sinking because I was like, wait, he cut this and he cut that and he moved this scene over here and I panicked and I wrote him this long email where I was like, hey, so here's just a few thoughts, thoughts on this. And you cut the cold open, and the cold open really does this thing where it sets up this. And you also, by starting this scene here, you do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember sending it off and being like, when he reads this, he's going to rethink some of his decisions. He wrote back, and I remember it so clearly. He wrote like, hey, dude, exclamation point responses below, see if they make sense to you. And then just one by one, everything I had said, he took the time to write out a long time long paragraph of like, here's why I did this and here's why it's good, I think, and here's why it makes sense and here's why it helps the episode. And then I remember it was like my heart sank again somehow because I was embarrassed, but also rose back up into my chest because I was like, oh, this guy knows everything. This guy is seeing the Matrix code behind the show in a way that I could never in this moment in my life. And I just remember thinking, there is nothing that I could suggest to Greg Daniels that he has not already thought about. He knew the show from beginning to end before he started working on it somehow. And when you know that you're in the hands of someone who cares that much and knows that much about what he's doing, it's so freeing. You're just like, I just trust that the decisions that are being made are coming from a place of thoughtfulness and understanding and love of the characters and love of the world. That makes me just very at ease, you know?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, yeah, he's smart and thoughtful. And funny. Oh my gosh. All the things, the one thing he said to me about my character, and I don't know if I've shared this before, but there was a moment where we didn't know if we were going to be series regulars or not, you know, the supporting cast. And I think I just sort of insecurely just said to him, without even thinking, I don't know if my character brings much, you know. And he said, oh, Angela, your character's the bitch. You always need the bitch. It's like, no, that's a very good. That's a good character. And I was like, okay, okay, maybe I'll be around a while.

[Mike Schur]

Did we talk about the Secret Santa Christmas episode? About Angela specifically? The last time I was here?

[Angela Kinsey]

I can't remember.

[Mike Schur]

This is like one of the great writing lessons. I feel like everybody, every time I was in that room, I learned something about how to write. But I had to write the Yankee Swap Christmas, the Secret Santa Christmas episode. So I did this thing where I did a real drawing. I put everyone's names into a hat. And we knew that for the plot, Jim had to have Pam cause he was gonna get her the teapot. And Michael had to have Ryan cause he gave him the video ipod. But everything else was up in the air. So I did a real drawing in my house when I went off to write the script. And I forget who had Angela. But anyway, the point is that the person who got Angela, it wasn't a plot point. It was just like we just needed people to open gifts, right?

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Mike Schur]

And so the gift that I wrote in was like one of those sort of like Joel Osteen sort of like Christian books, like self help books or whatever. And I think it's because Angela had said in the fire episode, it was like, when you're playing, you know, what books would you have on desert island? She says, she mentions one of those books. And so I was like, okay, so the person will just get her one of those books. And Greg was like, we need to change that. When I turned in the script and I was like, why? It's in universe. She's already said she likes those books. And he's like, yeah, but that's the reason we need to change it. He said every episode of every TV show, you should learn something new about every character if you can. That should be the goal. That you move the ball slightly down the field of character development for as many people as you can. Because that's what leads to rich characters. And I was a little Bit like, what does this matter? Like, this episode is so complicated already and this is not a plot point. This doesn't matter. It's just a moment where Angela opens a gift and then we move on. But we, of course, put seven hours of thought into it and ended up with buying that someone gets Angela a poster of babies dressed up like humans. Of, like, dressed up like adults. Right?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Mike Schur]

And first of all, immediately it's like, well, that's way funnier. It's a way funnier little moment. If it's just that moment, it's much better than just a book, because who cares? But then, whatever. Ten episodes later, that poster becomes the centerpiece of an entire other episode, and suddenly Oscar is wearing it as a shirt. And it was just such a great lesson, because it's like, right, Even if it doesn't matter in the moment, make it as interesting as possible and say something new about each character because you don't know how that's going to pay off down the line. And that poster, because a very important thing in the world of the show. And it's just because he cared at that granular level of make every moment 1% better. And then suddenly the entire episode is 15% better, and the entire season is 30% better, and future episodes are 500% better. And that's the level of detail that he was putting into all of that story breaking work.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, wow. That was a great specific example of that.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's awesome.

[Jenna Fischer]

Well, Mike, we also want to talk to you about your book.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. Okay. Mike has a new book. Yes. It is called Big Fan, and you wrote it with your friend and an amazing sports writer, Joe Posnanski.

[Mike Schur]

That's right.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I did read this little blurb and I thought I would share it with our listeners so they can get an idea of the book. It says bestselling authors and podcast hosts Joe and Mike love games, almost any games. And they bring readers to the front row and sometimes even right onto the field. Whether ringside at WrestleMania in Las Vegas, singing along with the Maniacs at the World Darts Championships in London, or just watching eight straight hours of football at a Buffalo Wild Wings in Dallas, they bring us to the very heart of what it means to love something so much it hurts.

[Jenna Fischer]

I got this book for Lee for Father's Day.

[Mike Schur]

Did you really?

[Jenna Fischer]

Yes, I did.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fischer]

And my son has already stolen it.

[Mike Schur]

Great.

[Angela Kinsey]

I got it for myself and I was on a flight to Utah and I started reading it, and the man next to me was like, what's that look at you. I don't know his name.

[Mike Schur]

You're doing Dutton's marketing work for them.

[Jenna Fischer]

Exactly.

[Angela Kinsey]

One person at a time.

[Jenna Fischer]

Tell us about this book and how it came about.

[Mike Schur]

So a couple years ago, I was sent a video by a friend of mine who said, look at this. It's hilarious. And it was a video of the World Darts Championship in London, a thing I did not know existed. And in the video, a couple very stocky European gentlemen with no expressions on their faces are just playing darts or just throwing darts at a dartboard. And they seem to be doing fairly well because behind them is a crowd of people, like 3,000 people. And with every throw, they are absolutely losing their minds. They just are going crazier and crazier. It's escalating. And the announcer is with the throw. Thickest, I think, Scottish accent you've ever heard is losing his mind. And it's a very funny juxtaposition of just no expression, just thunk, thunk, thunk, and people going like. And then I start to realize that the crowd behind them are all in costume, different costumes. Some of them are dressed like Harry Potter. Some of them are minions. Some of them are the Jamaican bobsled team. Some of them are dressed like giant bananas or tomatoes or. Or British barristers with white wigs on. And I was just like, what is this? What is this event? And I was laughing so hard at how crazy it was. And by the way, by the end, they're literally jumping up and down and throwing pitchers of beer in the air and throwing napkins up and hugging each other. And I was like, these people are lunatics. And then I was like, but also, that's probably kind of how I look to my wife when I'm watching sports that I care about. It does make you crazy to be a fan. And I just had this idea that my friend Joe, who I've known forever, who's a legendary sports writer, that he and I should go to a bunch of kind of strange events. Not the super bowl and the World Series and stuff like that, but, like, weird events where fans really care and just try to figure out if there is something universal about fandom. Like, is it the same at the World Darts Championship as it is at a Dodgers game? What is it about fandom that matters so much to so many people? Why do so many people put their lives on hold and carve time out of their busy days and stare frantically at a TV screen and pace around in their living rooms and bite their nails and fall into deep spells of depression when their team loses and celebrate euphorically when they win. And I just thought that I was like, this is a phenomenon that's worth investigating. So I called him and pitched him the idea, and he immediately saw it. And we were off and running. And so we. We spent, like, a year and a half going to a bunch of different events. We do go to, like, mainstream American sports. We go to basketball, football, baseball. I went to the Olympics in Paris and watched the US Men's basketball team. He went to a Montreal Canadiens hockey game with some friends in Montreal. Like, we do the stuff that matters most to Americans, but we also went to some really fun stuff that we had never heard of before. Joe went to the indigenous stickball championships in Philadelphia and Mississippi, which is a sport that native tribes have used to settle disputes for, like, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. It's sort of like field hockey or lacrosse, but it's, like, played by, like, dozens and dozens of people at the same time. It's sort of like lacrosse plus rugby plus, like, a fist fight.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, gosh.

[Mike Schur]

And it's, you know, it's in the middle of Mississippi in the summer, and it's 140 degrees with 140% humidity. Like, we went to places where there are games that matter, and we tried to, like, figure out what it was about that unites all of them and the fantasies.

[Jenna Fischer]

But you also went to, like, a Taylor Swift concert, which is another kind of fandom.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah. So we didn't want it to just be about sports. So one of the things that we did was there were two really fun things that were non sports related. One of them was, I had the idea that we should each send the other one to something that the other one hated.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Mike Schur]

It was like, I know you hate this now, but go see if you can figure out why people like it. So I sent Joe to play pickleball in a pickleball tournament. Cause he's a tennis player and he's like, me too. There you go.

[Jenna Fischer]

I know.

[Mike Schur]

And I hate it. I hate the sound. I hate the kitchen. I hate that it's named after the guy's dog. He just hates everything about it. But he sent me to WrestleMania because I don't care at all about wrestling. I don't like combat sports. I think they're ridiculous. And so I was like, all right, fine, I'll go to WrestleMania. And then my agent called me and was like, hey, I'm taking a bunch of people to a Dead Co. Show in Vegas for my birthday. Do you want to go? And I was like, I can't. I'm going to WrestleMania. And he was like, well, WrestleMania is also in Vegas and it's the same weekend. And I was like, crap. And I was like, I realized in that moment I should do both things. It's funnier to do both things. So I embark on what I refer to in the book as the world's weirdest biathlon, where on Saturday night I go to a Dead and Company show and Sunday night I go to WrestleMania. But then we were writing this book in 2425, and it was impossible to write a book about fandom without including Taylor Swift. My wife and I took our daughter and some of her friends to the Heiress show.

[Angela Kinsey]

We did the same.

[Mike Schur]

Did you?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, both of us.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was in New Orleans.

[Jenna Fischer]

I was in Vancouver. I was at her last show.

[Mike Schur]

My wife and my daughter were also at her second to last show.

[Jenna Fischer]

Oh, wow.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah. But my wife and her friend also went. Her friend from college and their daughters came and my wife's best friend made one of those photo books about it. And the title of the book is Better than Our Weddings because they both agreed that evening was better than each of their weddings.

[Jenna Fischer]

They were like, it was more joyous. I was happier.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah. It was more important in my life. Like. Yeah. And Joe had taken his daughter to a Taylor Swift concert in North Carolina. And so we were like, well, we have to write about Taylor Swift, but what are two like 50 year old dudes gonna say about it? That will matter nothing, but our daughters should do this. So I had my daughter Ivy, who's 14, I was like, just write a chapter about what Taylor Swift means to you. And his daughter did the same. And then we put them together and it was like. And we did not edit them. They are unedited. They are like, this is what. I added a few commas, but other than that. And so it's just a great little snapshot in time of what Taylor Swift means to girls at different ages in the year 2024. So we tried to cover not just sports, but all fandom. I wrote a long section on TV fandom too, and wrote about what I've observed about why TV matters to people and what is it about sort of bonding with characters on long running TV shows that makes them feel like they matter in their lives and that sort of thing. So it's really an attempt to be comprehensive about fandom as a phenomenon.

[Angela Kinsey]

And you have some great pictures in here too, from different events that you guys went to.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah. There's some good WrestleMania pictures. We were very close to the ring. And I'm still not a wrestling fan, but holy moly, those athletes are doing some crazy stuff, man.

[Angela Kinsey]

Their bodies, they're flying.

[Mike Schur]

The thing I write in the book is wrestling might be fake, but the sounds their bodies make when they hit the mat are not. They are really jumping and flying and twisting. It's really wild. I went with my friend Jen Statsky, who wrote with me on Parks and Rec and the Good Place and then created Hacks because she's an enormous wrestling fan. And Eleanor Shellstrop, Kristen Bell's character in the Good Place, is a huge wrestling fan and is deeply in love with Stone Cold Steve Austin. And that all came from Jen. That was all Jen's thing. And I asked Jen to come with me to be my Sherpa to walk me through it. And the thing she said to me, I was like, help me understand this. I can't access this. This. It's not a real sport. And she goes, no, that's the whole point. She goes, the thing that's great about wrestling is that it is the perfect marriage of sports and theater. And when you think of it as the intersection of sports and theater, you can figure out why it's so compelling. And I have to say, it was the perfect thing to say to me. It was like, I changed my frame of reference to this isn't really a sport to. It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to. To be a dramatic performance done by the world's best athletes. And that really helped me, like, get to the heart of why people are so nutty for it.

[Jenna Fischer]

You know, it's funny that you mention not being a fan of something and then, like, getting absorbed by it. So I was in New York this year when the Knicks were in the playoffs, or. What is the thing you win when you.

[Mike Schur]

The championship.

[Jenna Fischer]

The championship. Just the NBA championship?

[Mike Schur]

Yes, correct.

[Jenna Fischer]

I'm like, does it have a name like the Stanley Cup? I don't think so. So here's the thing. I have never watched a basketball game on television in my life. I've been to one Lakers game. I took my son. I don't particularly care for basketball. My opinion is that, like, you could just turn it on in the last three minutes. You don't need to watch the whole thing. Cause it just goes back and forth the whole game. And it's just sort of like, well, I'll just watch the end. Sure. So. Haven't ever been a fan of basketball. I spent seven Days in New York during this time. And by that last night when they won, I was at a neighborhood watch party the street.

[Angela Kinsey]

She was outside at a bar, sending

[Jenna Fischer]

messages like a tv. And I was like, oh, my God,

[Angela Kinsey]

if they don't win, they deserve it. It's been 50 years.

[Jenna Fischer]

Like, I was so hardcore. And then they won. And I was like, on the street, like, erupted and cars are honking and the guy's got a giant blow up basketball that we're all, like, kicking down the street.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fischer]

And I. I was like, oh, my God, I didn't even know.

[Mike Schur]

I know. It is deeply inside us, fandom. That's one of the things that we really learned is you can go from, I don't care about this at all to if Jalen Brunson doesn't win the MVP of the finals, I will throw myself in front of a train in like a second.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Mike Schur]

And the most sort of interesting part of this whole experience was we talked to this professor who studies sports fandom. His name is Daniel Wan. He teaches at Murray State University. And the thing he said to us that rang so true was, look, if sports were just fun and a good way to kill a couple hours, that would be fine. But it wouldn't explain that reaction you had, and it wouldn't explain why a billion people in the world care about it so deeply. And he said, in order for that to be true, it must be the case that sports fandom, and fandom in general is satisfying some kind of deep emotional need. Like an emotional need is being met by this phenomenon. And that's why it erupts out of us the way it, it does. It's because it's drilling down into our souls and meeting us at some very deep and primal place. And that feeling that you just described. So my son is a huge sports fan, but has never liked soccer. I've tried to get him to watch with me. He doesn't care. He thinks it's boring. There's not enough scoring, all those things that people think. He was out with his friends on the first night of the World cup, and he was like, what do you guys want to do? And they were like, there's a watch party in Korea because South Korea is playing in the World Cup. And he was like, right. And that all of a sudden I started getting these texts that was like, this is low key.

[Angela Kinsey]

Lock in, dad.

[Mike Schur]

This is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. And it's my son and his friends and like a thousand Koreans at, like, an outdoor park in Koreatown watching the World cup, and when they scored a goal, he was like, I've never felt anything like this in my life. It was like a jolt of electricity. And that night, he's staying up until three the morning, learning about all the players on the team, where they play, what the European leagues are learning about the transfer system in soccer, which is incredibly complicated. And now he's just got World cup fever, and he's living and dying with all these matches. And I just think it speaks to something. There's a lot of reasons why fandom occurs in people, but life is a little bit lonely, and sports creates communities that we can feel like we're a part of. And you're standing on the street, and you're suddenly feeling like nothing has ever mattered more to me in my life than this thing that I did not care about one week ago.

[Angela Kinsey]

Exactly.

[Jenna Fischer]

I mean, on game four, we walked to Central park and we watched the game through some trees. They had the Central park watch party, but it was like. It was at Walman Rink, and so it was like kind of a closed thing. And we're like. We're standing on some rocks, and I'm like, who am I? I didn't even know this team existed four days ago.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, I know.

[Angela Kinsey]

I'll tell you, when I fall apart, it doesn't matter what sports I'm watching. I love sports. I quickly just glom onto whatever everyone. What are we watching? Oh, we're watching World Cup. Great. Okay. Oh, champ. Okay, whatever. I just glom on, and I love it. It's the minute that moment of either triumph or failure happens, and you see the different emotions go across the faces of thousands of people who are sharing this moment with each other. Yeah, I, like, cry every time.

[Mike Schur]

I cry every time.

[Angela Kinsey]

Every time. I didn't know anything about Jalen. I call him by his first name now, and I just was like, oh. Like, hearing his life story, I'm just like. And then, you know, you see his mom, and I'm just like, forget it. Like, it's amazing. It's amazing.

[Jenna Fischer]

But you're right that shared grief is part of it, too. Like, it's not just the winning.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's failures and triumphs.

[Mike Schur]

And the reason, like, New York would have gone crazy no matter what. But 53 years means that there are whole generations of people who have never known their favorite team to be a winner at the end of the year. The most extreme example of this in my life is I'm a Red Sox fan, and they went 86 years. So 32 more years, 33 more years than the Knicks did without winning. And in that intervening time, sort of like the Knicks had a bunch of near misses, like a bunch of close calls and tragic failures and embarrassing errors made at the wrong time. And when they finally won in 2004, there was an article written, many articles written about the celebration that happened. And there was a story that I think about all the time, which is, at three in the morning, a guy had a thought which was, I need to share this with my dad. And his dad had passed away many years earlier and had never seen them win. He lived his entire life in a world in which they had never won the World Series. And his dad was buried at Mount Auburn Cemetery outside Boston. And he got a bottle of champagne and a Red Sox hat, and he was, I'm going to go to my dad's grave. I'm going to leave him this bottle of champagne and this Red Sox hat and just celebrate with him. And he was walking towards the cemetery, and he was thinking, like, how am I going to get in? It's three in the morning. There's a gate. It's locked. And as he was walking, he started to see other people walking in the same direction. He got to the cemetery. The guy who was the night guard at the cemetery had anticipated this and had unlocked the gate and opened it. He walked to his dad's grave, put the hat and the champagne down, and saw, like, 11 other people just in his line of vision speaking out loud to people in their graves.

[Angela Kinsey]

This is making me tear up.

[Mike Schur]

I know. It's beautiful. It's so important and meaningful. And if you think of sports as, like, a distraction, a diversion from the banality of everyday life, that's fine. That is what they are at some level. But when you have communities that bond around these teams and the fandom is passed down from generation to generation, and important moments and memories are made alongside those teams and alongside those moments, then it becomes something else. Then it becomes a thing where you are not thinking about, necessarily, Og Anunobi's incredible tippin in Game four. What you're thinking about is your grandmother, who used to sit in her living room and watch Nick's games and. And root for them, and who passed away 22 years ago and how much she would have loved this moment. And it connects you to her and it connects you to your kids and to your friends, and it really is. There's a great quote from the Pope, of all people, not this current Pope, but I think it was John Paul ii. Who said about soccer, calling it football, as Europeans do. He said, of all of the unimportant things, soccer is the most important. And that's how I think we should think of these things. It's like, yes, of course, it's not as important as a Supreme Court decision or a federal election or the eradication of a disease, but it is important. And it's important in a way that really does matter to an enormous number of people. And that's why we wanted to write

[Angela Kinsey]

the book that's so great. Well, I think people are gonna love your book. We're so thankful for our office community and the office ladies fans and the fandom and family that we have found with them. And you guys, we love Mike Schur. We know you do, too. You're going to love his book. I'm going to put a link to it in our stories.

[Mike Schur]

Thank you. Hope you like it.

[Jenna Fischer]

Mike, thanks for joining us today.

[Mike Schur]

My absolute pleasure.

[Jenna Fischer]

It's lovely to see you generosity and talking all things office and all things sports fandom.

[Mike Schur]

I love talking about the office. I'll talk about it forever. Anytime you want me to come talk about the office, I'll come back.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, great. Well, we have two more years of our contract, so good job.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you.

[Mike Schur]

All right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thanks so much. That was wonderful.

[Mike Schur]

That was so fun.

[Jenna Fischer]

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fischer]

Our senior producer is Matt Beagle and our audio engineer is Sam Kieffer.

[Angela Kinsey]

Odyssey's executive producer is Leah Reese.

[Jenna Fischer]

Dennis. Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.