Second Drink: The Negotiation with David Denman

Summary

Office Ladies: Second Drink - "The Negotiation" (w/ David Denman)

Episode Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts: Jenna Fischer & Angela Kinsey
Special Guest: David Denman (Roy)
Episode Focus: In-depth breakdown of “The Negotiation” (The Office, S3E18), featuring behind-the-scenes stories, a major cast goodbye, and fan-favorite deep dives.

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Brief Overview

In this “Second Drink” episode of Office Ladies, Jenna and Angela deliver a thorough breakdown of “The Negotiation,” a super-sized, pivotal episode of The Office—marked by the intense Jim-Roy fight, the final chapter in Pam and Roy's story, and a hilarious Michael Scott negotiation subplot. They’re joined by David Denman (Roy), who shares insights from his time on the show, his character’s arc, and personal anecdotes. The episode features hallmark deep dives (including a passionate monologue on women’s pockets), fan Q&A, and plenty of laughs.

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

• [02:35] Main Show Start & Episode Theme
• [15:17] Interview with David Denman
• [40:31] Post-Interview Recap, Episode Breakdown
• [41:07] Scene-by-Scene Analysis & Fast Facts

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Episode Context and Major Storylines

• “The Negotiation” is super-sized, with no deleted scenes on the DVD. The Superfan cut has just two extra minutes ([03:09]).
• Key plot: Roy storms into the office to attack Jim for kissing Pam but is stopped by Dwight’s pepper spray. Roy is fired, leading to Daryl’s attempt to negotiate a raise. Michael uncovers he’s underpaid and embarks on an awkward negotiation journey with Jan.
• The episode marks the official end of the Pam-Roy relationship and Ed Helms’ return as Andy ([10:11]).

2. Behind the Scenes & Production Facts

• Written by Mike Schur (Emmy-nominated for this episode; Greg Daniels won for “Gay Witch Hunt”) ([11:51]).
• Michael’s negotiation tactics were fabricated—after airing, fans edited Wikipedia to include his fake advice, triggering semi-protection of the negotiation entry ([13:33]).
• Fast Fact: David Denman (Roy) was one of the earliest cast members and brought his own (Old Navy) jacket, which became the warehouse uniform ([15:17], [34:46]).
• Pam and Roy’s emotional final coffee scene was shot at a real diner frequented by cast and crew ([91:15]).
• Michael’s infamous "women’s suit" was an actual women’s suit (not custom-made), confirmed by costume designer Carrie Bennett ([83:25]).

3. David Denman (Roy) Interview Highlights ([15:17]–[36:51])

• David’s journey to The Office involved leveraging his acting background—inspired by friends who loved the British version ([15:35]).
• Backstory for Roy & Pam: Denman viewed them as high school sweethearts stuck in a rut. Roy's realization of needing to fight for Pam only came too late ([20:30]).
• Transformation for S3 was his idea, influenced by a conversation with Greg Daniels about being a credible “rival” for Jim and training for triathlons ([24:03]).
• Favorite off-camera moment: Speeding through Long Beach harbor at sunrise with Steve Carell after shooting "Booze Cruise" ([28:33]).
• The Roy-Angela “ship”: Denman laughs about online speculation, says it could have been juicy if he’d stayed longer ([29:32]).
• On leaving: Denman shares the bittersweet feeling of his character’s exit, Greg Daniels’ candor in conversations, and his appreciation for being part of The Office’s legacy ([32:52]).
• The famous warehouse jacket was his personal one from auditions ([34:46]).

“I'm constantly grateful every day that I got to be in a little part of the show, because that's, you know, very, very, very rare.” —David Denman ([23:14])

4. Scene-by-Scene Breakdown: Memorable Moments & Analysis

The Jim-Roy Fight & Dwight’s Heroics ([41:07])

• Detailed breakdown of the stunt scene: No pepper spray was used, just Evian mist; stunt coordinator Bobby Porter kept everyone safe ([42:04], [43:07]). Twelve takes for action, extra takes for mist.
• Angela notes her character (Angela Martin) wasn’t present for the chaos but is playfully obsessed with getting every retelling of the fight ([44:29], [48:37]).

Jan-Michael “Yeppers” Convo—Peak Comedy ([45:10])

• A fan-favorite scene where Jan scolds Michael for his overused catchphrase “yeppers”:

  “What did I tell you about yeppers?”
  “I don’t remember.”
  “I told you not to say it. Do you remember that?”
  “Yeesh.”
  —Jan (Melora Hardin), Michael (Steve Carell) ([45:28])

Pam’s Reaction & “Smirk” Debate ([47:28])

• Pam’s small smile at the end of her talking head is debated—Jenna explains it was likely “nervous discomfort,” not pride.

Michael’s Negotiation “Tips” & Wikipedia Prank ([52:39])

• Michael adopts nonsensical tactics (“change location,” “don’t speak first”)—none from real negotiation theory.
• Angela’s deep dive: Real negotiation isn’t conflict; women often “negotiate with themselves first.” Important advice: Don’t self-compromise before negotiating ([54:39]):

  “Go in there and really ask for what you want. Like, don’t negotiate with yourself first. Just negotiate with the company.” —Jenna ([55:30])

Michael’s Women’s Suit & Jenna’s Pocket Soapbox ([59:53]–[64:42])

• Michael’s embarrassment over wearing a women’s suit ignites Jenna’s passionate historical deep dive on the injustice of small or fake pockets on women’s clothing:

  “I just think we need bigger pockets and bigger paychecks. Can I get my cha-ching? Equal pay for equal pockets. Hashtag it, everyone.” —Jenna ([64:42])

Break Room Heartbreak: Pam & Jim ([67:19])

• Somber scene as Pam tries to apologize and Jim rebuffs her attempts at reconciliation:

  “She’s really trying to connect… Jim is being so cold.” —Jenna ([69:11]) “He’s just not gonna put himself out there like that… It’s too much drama.” —Angela ([70:10])

Michael’s Car Ride Trio ([78:27])

• Hilarious, awkward trio of Michael, Daryl, and Toby driving to New York City—a Mike Schur classic oddball combo.

Coffee Finale: Roy and Pam’s Goodbye ([91:04])

• Emotional symmetry and closure. Roy acknowledges Pam may move on to Jim; Pam is uncertain. Both apologize for mistakes ([93:00]).

The Dwight-Angela Make-out Reveal ([98:28])

• Dwight and Angela think they’re alone; big kiss—only for Jim to walk in and witness everything:

  “I will never say a word. And now we’re even.” —Jim, to camera ([99:59])

• Angela confirms that to make the shot work (given the height difference), Rainn Wilson always sat on her desk for kiss scenes.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “I haven’t been to New York in a long time. I stay overnight. Cousin live down there. Oh, you can stay too…” —David Denman as Daryl, Superfan cut ([04:38])
• “What did I tell you about yeppers?” —Jan to Michael ([45:28])
• “I just think we need bigger pockets and bigger paychecks.” —Jenna ([64:42])
• “Go in there and really ask for what you want. Like, don’t negotiate with yourself first…” —Jenna ([55:30])
• “I immediately liked you. No, we definitely hit it off. What was fun about that show in the beginning was you guys were all stuck in the office for hours… you were like, oh, there’s a new person! Hi!” —David Denman ([18:16])
• “Did you notice Jim right away looks right to you? Like, oh crap.” —Angela, on the Roy-Jim fight ([41:26])
• “Dwight doesn’t just spray him, he douses him with the whole container…” —Angela ([41:54])
• “Negotiating is not conflict. It’s totally different. It’s going in there to be an advocate for yourself.” —Angela ([55:33])
• “Pam does right by Angela. Over and over. She does.” —Angela ([100:04])

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Office Deep Dives & Fan Q&A

• The lack of deleted scenes—“It’s all in there, guys.” ([11:25])
• “Fast Fact”: Office/‘Heroes’ TV show crossovers, with actors appearing on both NBC hits ([05:37])
• Creed’s wild retelling of the Roy-Jim brawl—“Big fella pulls out a sock full of nickels, Shrug grabs hairspray and a lighter” ([72:31])
• Angela’s method for portraying “micro-expressions”: Writes emotional triggers in script margins and subtly acts them out ([51:46])

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Fun Tangents

• Jenna’s epic soapbox on pockets: the Rational Dress Society, the history and injustice of women's clothing and pocket sizes ([59:53]–[64:51]).
• Keanu Reeves appreciation and John Wick/Point Break/Speed movie plans ([79:24]).
• Angela and Jenna debate Red Vines vs. Twizzlers: Team Red Vine wins ([90:14]).
• Final Destination movies explained in depth ([86:07]).

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Closing Thoughts

• “The Negotiation” marks a turning point in The Office, saying goodbye (at least as a regular) to Roy, cementing the end of Pam/Roy, and foreshadowing future office romances.
• Denman’s interview underscores the family atmosphere of the original cast and crew, the “casting ruts” of recurring roles, and how being part of the show's DNA is a “rare privilege.”
• Jenna and Angela’s trademark blend of sitcom analysis, heartfelt reminiscence, and offbeat research (from negotiation theory to women’s fashion history) makes this episode a treat for Office fans and pop culture buffs alike.
• The episode closes with appreciation for David Denman, cast camaraderie, and a tease for more “super-sized” moments as the season heads into its home stretch.

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Essential Timestamps

• [02:35] Main Show Begins: Episode Summary, Stakes
• [03:43] Superfan Extended Cut Differences
• [15:17] David Denman Interview (favorite scenes, Roy’s backstory, leaving the show, triathlons)
• [41:07] Opening Scene (Roy-Jim fight, Dwight uses “pepper spray”)
• [45:10] Jan/Michael "Yeppers" scene
• [55:30] Jenna’s negotiation advice
• [59:53] Jenna’s passionate pocket history deep dive
• [69:06] “Heartbreak in the Break Room” (Pam/Jim scene)
• [91:04] Hungry Fox Diner (Roy & Pam goodbye)
• [98:28] Dwight and Angela’s clandestine kiss, Jim’s reaction

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For fans and newcomers alike, this episode offers an energetic, thorough, and affectionate look behind the scenes of a classic Office milestone—with plenty of laughter, real-life context, and love for the characters that made Scranton a cultural touchstone.

Transcript

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[Jenna Fisher]

Hello and welcome to your second drink of the negotiation. This is a really special episode because David Denman joined us to talk about his time on the Office.

[Angela Kinsey]

Love him and this episode is super packed. We have a Jim Roy fight, a Roy Pam breakup. And then a Dwight Angela makeout session caught by the documentary camera crew. And Jim and guys, it's a super sized episode.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Ange, I remember you saying that there are no deleted scenes on the DVDs for this episode because it was super sized. Did any extra footage make it into the Superfan episode?

[Angela Kinsey]

I was curious too. So here's the deal. The running time of the original episode was 30 minutes. And the superfan is 32 minutes and 34 seconds. So they did not add a lot. I was curious, what is this extra two minutes? Well, the first thing added I found was to Pam's talking head where she says she doesn't want to comment on the Jim Roy fight. The original was this. Pam says, I don't really want to talk about it. I don't mean to be rude, but I just. I don't want to comment on what happened. It sucked. And it stopped there. But here is the extended cut.

[Jenna Fisher]

I really don't want to talk about it. I don't mean to be rude, but I just don't want to comment on what happened. It sucked. Probably the only time I'll ever utter the words. But luckily Dwight came along. That's fun.

[Angela Kinsey]

Isn't that cute? Yes. And I found one more. It's in the car with Toby, Michael and Darryl. So remember how Darryl says, I haven't been to New York in a long time. Maybe I'll stay overnight. I've got a cousin that lives down there. And then Toby says, how would we get home? And Daryl says, oh, you could stay too. He's got a big place. And then Michael chimes in, maybe I'll stay. And then Darryl is like, his place isn't that big.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

So he totally doesn't want Michael, but he's fine if Toby tags along. Well, there was more after that. It wasn't in deleted scenes, but I checked the shooting draft. It's in there. And it all made it into the Superfan version. Let's hear it.

[David Denman]

I haven't been to New York in a long time. I stay overnight. Cousin live down there. Oh, you can stay too. You got a big place. It's not that big. The buses don't get you home. Quick told me maybe the Medicine Town. We catch a game in there. Seriously, tell me. Not into baseball. I like baseball. Or you could head down to Times Square, find yourself a hooker, forget about your divorce for a minute. Michael, I am so sick of those jokes.

[Jenna Fisher]

Sorry.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. And then at the end, Michael leans.

[Jenna Fisher]

Forward and goes, psychopath. Toby bites back yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Some Toby sass.

[Jenna Fisher]

I wanted to share a fan catch by Sandakanti, who pointed out an Office crossover that we missed. She said, in Dwight's final talking head, when he's talking about who the real heroes are, and then he mentions Hero from the TV show Heroes. Right. We did not mention that. Nicholas d', Agosto, who plays Hunter and who we meet in this episode, is also in Heroes. He was in nine episodes of Heroes. And of course, our other Office Heroes crossovers are Jack Coleman and Senthil Ramamurthy.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hunter was in nine episodes.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. Of Heroes, the TV show.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's a great catch. Thank you, Sandakin.

[Jenna Fisher]

Heroes is now, like, really making a run for Monk in terms of Office crossovers.

[Angela Kinsey]

It is.

[Jenna Fisher]

But you know what? These crossovers don't surprise me because Heroes was a big hit show on NBC at the same time that the Office was on.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right.

[Jenna Fisher]

And what happens is, like, if you do a guest appearance on. On one network show, they now kind of know about you, so you're more top of mind if they've got a role that might fit you on one of their other shows.

[Angela Kinsey]

Exactly.

[Jenna Fisher]

So that makes sense to me why so many folks were on both shows.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Well, lastly, there is a scene we briefly discussed, but, you guys, it is one of my favorite. Jan. Phone conversations with Michael. Every time I rewatch this episode, it makes me laugh. Every single time. I think we should hear it.

[David Denman]

He has been wanting a raise for a couple of months, and he's just using this Roy thing as leverage.

[Angela Kinsey]

Are you gonna take care of this?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeppers. What did I tell you about yeppers?

[David Denman]

I don't remember.

[Angela Kinsey]

I told you not to say it. Do you remember that?

[David Denman]

Yeesh.

[Angela Kinsey]

Every time. What did I tell you about yeppers? And then he says, yeesh.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm sure that bothers her just as much.

[Angela Kinsey]

Just as much. In the whole time, Toby is sitting there just listening to the whole conversation on speakerphone in the conference room. But how many times has he said yeppers that she bites so hard like that?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh. I love it. Okay, lastly, we both have some fun personal news, y'.

[Jenna Fisher]

All.

[Angela Kinsey]

I finally got the physical copy of Josh and I's cookbook. You can make this. We are so excited. We finally got to hold it. We got to flip through it. This is two years of hard work. Our kids got to look at it. We're so excited.

[Jenna Fisher]

I am so happy for you guys.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you.

[Jenna Fisher]

Like, I need everyone to know how amazing it is to eat at your house.

[Angela Kinsey]

Aww.

[Jenna Fisher]

And now with this Cookbook. Everybody can eat all the stuff that you've been serving me for years. I mean forever.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thanks, lady.

[Jenna Fisher]

My kids get very excited when they are invited to your house. They literally say, josh makes such good food.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know, our kids friends always want to eat at our house.

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't doubt it.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love it. Well, thank you for saying that. That means a lot and I can't wait for you guys to have it. We'll put links and stories and lady, you have a huge night tonight. We have to talk about it.

[Jenna Fisher]

I know. I kind of got to go. My play Ashland Avenue opens tonight at the Goodman Theater in Chicago. Opening night is by invitation only, but you can get tickets to all our other [e-mail] but yeah, I gotta go. I gotta go start my vocal warmups.

[Angela Kinsey]

Lady, you're gonna do great. As they say in the theater, break a leg.

[Jenna Fisher]

Thank you.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love you. And now here's our breakdown of the negotiation. Full of fun stuff and one of my favorite, Jenna deep dives pockets.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, boy. I'm Jenna Fisher.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

[Jenna Fisher]

We were on the Office together and we're best friends. And now we're doing the ultimate Office rewatch podcast just for you.

[Angela Kinsey]

Each week we will break down an episode of the Office and give exclusive behind the scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you.

[Jenna Fisher]

Where the Office ladies. Hello, Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hey, lady. It's very good to see your face today.

[Jenna Fisher]

Same. I feel the same way.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, I said lady right out of the gate. Jenna. Some people love the lady and some people don't love the lady.

[Jenna Fisher]

I want to get a T shirt that just says lady.

[Angela Kinsey]

Lady. All right, what are we talking about today?

[Jenna Fisher]

Today we are talking about season three, episode 18, the negotiation. It was written by Mike Scher and directed by Jeff Blitz.

[Angela Kinsey]

Those are two powerhouses of comedy.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, this is a good team. Here is a summary. Angered by Pam's confession that she and Jim shared a kiss, Roy tries to attack Jim in the office. I mean, right out of the gate. That's the first scene, everybody.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Jim is spared by Dwight's quick thinking, AKA pepper spray. Roy is fired, and Daryl tries to leverage it into a raise. But upon hearing how little Michael makes at his job, Daryl, Toby, and Michael drive to corporate so Michael can ask for his own raise. Roy takes Pam out for coffee to apologize. And they break it off for good. This is it. No more Pam and Roy, guys. And then at the end of the show, Jim catches Dwight and Angela kissing in the office.

[Angela Kinsey]

Mm. It's a lot fast fact number one.

[Jenna Fisher]

This episode was a super sized episode of the Office. And as a result, Angela, I think. Am I right? There are no deleted scenes for this episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

There are none on the DVDs. Now, I don't know if there's some secret NBC archive somewhere, but there aren't any that we know of.

[Jenna Fisher]

I think we used it all. It's all in there, guys. Now here's a little bit of a fact. This is a fact within a fact.

[Angela Kinsey]

I was going to say a little bit of a fact. What's happening?

[Jenna Fisher]

This episode, like I said, was written by Mike Schur, who was nominated for an Emmy Award for writing this episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, he should have won. Did he win?

[Jenna Fisher]

He did not.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, boo.

[Jenna Fisher]

He lost to Greg Daniels, who won for Gay Witch Hunt.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

You're all right with that? You're like, all right, the Office won.

[Angela Kinsey]

Keep it in the family.

[Jenna Fisher]

That's right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yay. All right, well, that was fun.

[Jenna Fisher]

All right, well, now I'm going to give you fast fact number two. In this episode, you remember, Michael says that he got tips on how to negotiate from Wikipedia.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

And some of the stuff that he says that he found on Wikipedia is stuff like you have to suddenly change the location or refuse to talk first.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, we had a fan question from Brianna Kernan, Zhu Yu Wang, Charlie Altman, Shay Quiz, and Jeremy Sharp. They all asked were the interview tips that Michael was using actually from Wikipedia or did the writers make them up? Okay, none of that stuff was on Wikipedia. For real. The writers just made that up?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I. You know, Jenna, I did a mini deep dive on the art of negotiation for this episode, and I can confirm because I went to the actual Wikipedia page and for negotiating, and those are not on there.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, you know, after this episode aired, there was a major stir.

[Angela Kinsey]

Really?

[Jenna Fisher]

Fans started going onto the negotiation page of Wikipedia and they started changing it to reflect Michael's advice.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's awesome. I mean, not. I mean, don't. Don't be hackers, guys. But that's funny.

[Jenna Fisher]

And the administrators at Wikipedia had to put the page in, I guess, what is called semi protection mode. And that limits who's allowed to edit a page. So any user that had an account that was less than four days old or anyone who's trying to put a post up as Anonymous, were forbidden. And then they had other administrators who would go in and delete all of the fake negotiation advice. That was just Michael Scott.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my goodness, you guys.

[Jenna Fisher]

But it was a whole thing. There Were, like, articles written about it in USA Today.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, wow.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, it caused a stir.

[Angela Kinsey]

Stirring it up. Office fans.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm going through these quickly, Angela, because we have some exciting news which is part of fast fact number three. Yes, this episode marks the return of Ed Helms as Andy Bernard, but it also marks the last regular appearance of Roy, played by David Denman. Now, Roy will continue to come back now and then, but this really officially ends the Pam Roy relationship. And we felt like we had to mark this occasion by talking to Roy himself, David Denman.

[Angela Kinsey]

And we had so much fun talking to him. Sam, can you play that interview?

[Jenna Fisher]

David Denman. Hello. Welcome to Office Ladies.

[David Denman]

Hello, ladies.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hey, David. It's so good to see you.

[David Denman]

It's been a long time.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, it's been a long time.

[Jenna Fisher]

It has. Well, David, we always like to start by asking our guests how they came to be on the show.

[David Denman]

My buddy, who is an actor, a friend of mine in New York, he watched the British Office, and he called me and said, dude, you've got to watch the show. It's amazing. You're going to love it. There's nothing like it on tv. And I hear they're doing an American version. You got to try to get in on that. So I watched it, and I was like, oh, my God, this is genius. And there was, you know, a couple of guys my age on the show, and I called my agent and I was like, hey, I hear they're doing an American version of the Office. And he goes, yeah, yeah. And I go, I'd love to get in on that. And he goes, you really? You want to do that? I go, yeah. What do you mean? Because I don't know. They're looking for improv comedians. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I went to Juilliard. I did study improv along with Shakespeare and many other things. It's not. Just because I didn't go to, you know, improv Olympic or whatever doesn't mean I don't have an interest in that and don't have that in my toolbox. And he goes, oh, okay. So he called over and all the parts were cast except for Roy. And so I said, yeah, I'd love to go in for that part. That little thing changed my career.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, David, I remember that you were one of the very, very first people cast. You were at our first original table read that. Angela was not even at. They hadn't even filled out the rest of the Office. It was just Steve, John Rain, bj, Me, Phyllis, and you. That's who was at the first table read. And I remember Allison Jones brought her Polaroid camera and she took a Polaroid picture for each of us because she said that's a tradition of hers at table reads for actors for their first series. Do you still have yours?

[David Denman]

I remember it slightly different. I know she brought the Polaroid camera and she took a picture for herself that she did on every table read of her first show. And you said, oh, I want one of those, and she took another one and gave it to you. I don't think anyone else has any of those photos besides those two.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay, that sounds like me.

[Angela Kinsey]

Thank you, David, because Jenna has talked about this, and thank you for setting that straight.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, that explains why no one else has one but me.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, maybe you should stop asking that question, Jenna, to the original table read, people.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, my gosh. Well, David, I just remember meeting you and being so excited, and we had that theater connection. Cause I also got a theater degree. I just liked you immediately.

[David Denman]

I immediately liked you. No, we definitely hit it off. What was fun about that show in the beginning was you guys were all stuck in the office for hours and hours and hours. And usually when you film a series, it's like, oh, we'll shoot that scene, and then we'll go shoot that scene. But because the way they film this with, you know, documentary style, where they whip the camera across the whole office, they needed everyone to sit in the background all day long. So you guys would always be losing your mind. By the time I showed up on set, you were like, oh, there's a new person. Hi. And you were very enthusiastic every time I got there, and I was very grateful for it, you know? So, yeah, we definitely hit it off.

[Angela Kinsey]

I do remember Jenna coming to set, though, and being like, guess what I did this weekend? I was like, what? And she was like, I played poker with David. And I was like, what is happening? Where are you guys? You guys are, like, hanging out. You're playing poker in someone's garage. Like, what's. What's this whole other life I need to get in on?

[Jenna Fisher]

I know you never learned poker, Angela. You missed out on a lot.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, you wouldn't want me at your poker table. I mean, I. I mean, one time I played with, and I had, like, a pair of threes, and I thought I could win the whole thing, but I guess that's not, you know, I don't know. I'm not good at it, guys.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, if we're playing for real money, we would want you at our poker table.

[Angela Kinsey]

No, you wouldn't. Because I'm the person that's like, all in. And everyone's like, wait, what's happening?

[David Denman]

I remember that, like, in Rain's garage, like, and here we are in a little poker table. But I remember I took down a big pot opposite you, Jenna, once, and you lost your mind. You could not believe that I beat you in that hand. I don't think I ever won another hand against you, but that one just set the tone. You were just so livid that I beat you. And do you remember that? That's just my fond memory.

[Jenna Fisher]

I feel like I would often get dramatic when I lost and wasn't expecting it.

[Angela Kinsey]

So, David, Jenna and I have talked a little bit how we give our characters backstories. Like, I would give Angela Martin reasons why she would react one way. And Jenna has shared her Pam backstory. And what was your take on Roy and Pam? Did you invent a backstory for their relationship and for Roy?

[David Denman]

Yeah, I did definitely have backstory, but I just, you know, I assumed that these guys met in high school, they started dating, and, you know, they just kind of fell into this, you know, this dynamic where neither one of them. Well, definitely. I don't even think Roy wanted to get married initially. I think it was just like, oh, this is what we were supposed to do next, and this is what we're supposed to do next. And it wasn't until years later that, like, you know, when he was gonna lose Pam that, like, he was like, oh, I actually care about this person, and I have to put some work into this. And, you know, with any relationship, you have to put some effort into it. And I don't think. I don't think Roy was. Had ever thought about that until it was too late. And I went to school with a bunch, with some, like, couple of meatheads that I sort of fashioned this guy after. I'm not gonna say who they were, but that's kind of where I saw Roy. And so I thought at the time, I was like, oh, this will be a great way to make fun of those guys. And then the next thing I know, I'm playing these parts for the rest of my life. That's not all. That's not entirely true, but.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, it's so funny because you. I mean, like, knowing you, you're such like more of like an intellectual creative. Right.

[David Denman]

Thank you.

[Jenna Fisher]

I appreciate that you're an outdoorsman, though. Like, that part of Roy fits you, I think. I mean, Roy is jet skiing, but, you know, you like the outdoors. And stuff.

[David Denman]

I do. I do like the outdoors. I mean, I go out backpacking, stuff like that. I don't know if Roy's necessarily that. He's more of like a. Let's get my RV and my jet ski and, like, hang out and drink some beers.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[David Denman]

And that's his. That's his outdoorsman.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right. He's gonna load up a four wheeler with a bunch of beer. Probably make some bad choices in the woods.

[David Denman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, David, I totally relate to how you can kind of fall into a casting rut, because I just did an interview yesterday and the person interviewing me said, so, Angela, you often play the heel. You're kind of a heel in everything. And I was like, yes, I. I have sort of made a way of playing the bitch or the weirdo. It's kind of become my thing.

[David Denman]

It's hard for people to see you outside of that box once you're in it. And. And then, like, the success of the show has just continued on and on and on and on, which is fantastic. It's more popular now than it ever was. And, you know, if you're lucky enough to be part of something that, like, people enjoy and get into, and that's exciting. But when you. To be part of something that gets into the culture of that is so rare and so impossible to. To be a part of that. I'm constantly grateful every day that I got to be in a little part of the show because that's, you know, very, very, very rare.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

So, David, at the beginning of season three, you came back to work and you were, like, super fit. We all noticed. Was this because you had done a movie role over the summer and they wrote it into the plot, or did Greg get you aside and tell you this idea that Roy should come back and be all, like, excited to win Pam back, and you sort of transformed for the show.

[David Denman]

It was all for the show. And it was a conversation with Greg. I wouldn't say Greg said, hey, go get in shape. But he did say. He did take me aside and said, hey, I want. I got the. I'd like to make you more of a rival Jim's next season. And I said, really? And he goes, yeah. I said, I don't know how we're going to do that. I mean, we've really made this guy such a knucklehead. I don't know how anyone's going to root for Roy. And he goes, well, I think you can do something and make it work when we can also, you know, write it. So we Give them that opportunity. And I said, okay. I said, well, I probably should get into shape. Then he goes, okay, if you want to. And one of our camera operators who became a director, you know, our buddy Matt Sohn, he was like, you should do this triathlon. And I was like, are you out of your mind? I'm not doing a triathlon. I don't even. I barely run. I mean, he was like, you can do it. I'm telling you, you can do it. And I'm like, no, no, man. That's never going to happen. I mean, I played water polo in high school for, like, my freshman year, so I was a pretty good swimmer. I wasn't worried about that. But I hadn't ever been on a bike. And he was like, I know, guys. I can get you a bike. And, like, we should. You should just do it. And, you know, it was like, that conversation with Greg's idea of trying to make Roy more of a rival just kind of put it all into motion. And so I started training for the Malibu Triathlon, which I ended up doing, like, 10. I did that for, like, 10 years, I think, every year. And so many other people from the office got joined in on that. I don't know if you. If either of you guys ever did it.

[Jenna Fisher]

I never did it, but I remember this, David. I remember a bunch of the guys on the crew and some of the women as well.

[Angela Kinsey]

Terri Weinberg, right? Terri Weinberg is, like, so fit. She really went all out.

[David Denman]

I see her out there every year. She still does this.

[Jenna Fisher]

You used to come back with photos, and it was incredible.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[David Denman]

And it was always the same weekend as the Emmys, which is like, people, like, go do the triathlon in the morning and then go change and go.

[Angela Kinsey]

To an Emmy party that night, which.

[David Denman]

Was hilarious to me. I'm like, that's so cool.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I would have loved to have done that, David, but Angela doesn't think I have the athleticism now.

[David Denman]

That's not true at all.

[Jenna Fisher]

Thank you. Say it loud and clear for the office lady's audience, please.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I need to hear your support for this argument.

[David Denman]

Okay, first of all, do you. Angela, you have to remember this, and I hate to put you on what point, but remember the year that Jenna decided to get into shape and was like. And she was like, I'm doing it. I am doing it. And I'm like, good for you. And she was on the COVID of, like, Shape magazine in a bikini.

[Angela Kinsey]

Bikini. And she looked phenomenal. She looked phenomenal, David. Here is what I'm saying to you, my argument is not that Jenna cannot get into shape when she wants to get into shape. The woman is hardcore. You know, she also made a mixtape called Sounds of Scranton. She wrote a three page document about the background of Pam. When she wants to get into shape, by God, she gets in shape. But could she do a cartwheel and a backflip and throw a grenade in the air and then jump on a rope and swing across a parking lot? I've seen her carry a guitar through an airport, David. I. I saw her try to get a guitar on a plane.

[David Denman]

Okay, look, I stand corrected in regards to getting a guitar on a plane or doing a backflip through a parking lot, swinging on a rope. And I don't know, like, is she going to be the next Lara Croft? Probably. Probably not.

[Angela Kinsey]

But this is my point, David.

[David Denman]

She could do a triathlon. That's all I'm saying.

[Angela Kinsey]

Listen, I didn't say she couldn't do a triathlon. Jenna jumped in to give me shade and tried to get you on her side. I think she could do a triathlon.

[Jenna Fisher]

Whatever.

[Angela Kinsey]

I think she'd be the team leader. She'd have everyone on a schedule. No doubt in my mind.

[Jenna Fisher]

Whatever.

[David Denman]

Oh.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, Lord. Sass. We got some sass happening.

[Jenna Fisher]

All right, well, I have a question.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

For this interview, I'm moving us along. David, in general, do you have any favorite scenes from your time on the show? Anything you just loved for any reason?

[David Denman]

I do have a moment that I remember specifically, but it wasn't anything that was on camera. It was. We were shooting the booze cruise episode. It was a long night. And the next morning, like, we, as we were rapping, they had a pontoon boat and Steve and I jumped in the pontoon boat and we blazed through Long beach harbor as the sun was coming up. And it was like, it was awesome. And I just, for some reason remember that moment of my time on that show more than anything else.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love that. Well, David, I just want to get your take on the whole Angela and Roy thing, because there's a lot of people online, there's like a Reddit thread that Angela Roy were having some secret love affair. We talked to Greg about it. Greg was like, maybe if he had stayed on the show longer, but, nah, I don't think so. But we could see where Roy would appeal to Angela. Sort of this big gallant fella.

[David Denman]

I remember that. Like, who would you do? I think Roy was like, oh, yeah, she's hot. Like Greg said. I think if he'd Been on the show. If I'd been on the show longer, that would have been a fun, you know, twist to throw in there to just create conflict.

[Angela Kinsey]

How much fun would it have been to revenge date Angela in front of Pam?

[David Denman]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. A hundred percent. That would have been. That would have. She would have totally been into that. And Roy would have been into that, too, I'm sure. Oh, that would have been funny. Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, David, you got to have a lot of scenes with Craig Robinson. You sort of mentioned that we spent a lot of time in the office, but you got to do all those warehouse scenes, and oftentimes the two of you were paired up. Do you have any stories from working with Craig or what? That was like, I love that dude.

[David Denman]

Like you. I got along with him really well, and we hung out outside of work quite a bit at the beginning, and I was trying to get him to do the triathlon, which he was not into, but we almost did. Almost Muddy, Buddy, which is this, like, crazy race where you, like, go on this obstacle course, like, and you get. I mean, literally, you, like, you do it with a partner or multiple people, and you help each other, like, climb across these obstacle courses. You go through mud, you get electrocuted. Like, it's the most insane.

[Jenna Fisher]

Electrocuted.

[David Denman]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

What?

[Angela Kinsey]

Why?

[David Denman]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. This sounds like a bad frat hazing.

[David Denman]

It's not. It is horrible. And I did it once, and I'll never, ever do it again. But anyone who's ever participated, they know there's this one obstacle course where you have to crawl on the ground on your. Through the mud, and they have these hanging, like. Like electric, like, currents that, like, once they touch your body, they zap you. And, like, it's to keep you down low, but when you're as big as I am, you just get zapped over and over and over again. It was the worst thing ever. Craig and I, like, we talked about it all the time. We were gonna. We were. We were so possibly gonna do that. Maybe he just was just being nice to me, saying, maybe.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'll think about it 100%.

[Angela Kinsey]

He was. I think he was totally placating you. Yeah, man. That sounds like a great idea. Idea. Bye. Bye.

[David Denman]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, I love that.

[David Denman]

That's my fantasy that Craig and I would have done one of those adventures together. Now I'm too old. I don't want to do it. It's nuts.

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't want to do it 20 years ago. I don't want to be zapped.

[Jenna Fisher]

Now. On this episode, David, we have this scene at the Hungry Fox Diner, and it's kind of Pam and Roy's last big scene together for a while because you do come back and we have another kind of heart to heart it later. But this ends it for a while. And I remember shooting this scene with you and feeling kind of emotional because I knew that your regular time on the Office was ending. Do you have any memories from that? Did Greg talk to you about that?

[David Denman]

I'll tell you, like, when I. When I found out, we did a table read, and right then Greg got the phone call, or right before that, you guys had all got picked up for two more seasons, or maybe it was three seasons. I don't know how many seasons it was at that point, but everyone was like, oh, my God, yay. And I was sitting right next to Greg, and I turned to Greg and I go, I'm not coming back, am I? And he goes, no. He goes, but it's not you. I just got to get Romeo and Juliet together. And I just don't feel like I can do that with you here. But I don't want to kill you off, because I want you to come back. And I said, I get it. And the coolest thing ever was, like, I said, would it be okay for me to do like a pilot or something? Because it was right at the beginning of pilot season. He goes, yeah, I think that would be okay. And oftentimes, because they don't want people to know something's not going to happen, they won't let you do that. Like, you're under contract, and so they're not going to allow you to do another show. And so he was very gracious to let me do that. And I ended up getting this really great pilot that ended up not going, but it was a big get for me and definitely changed the trajectory of my career. Shortly after that, we did shoot this episode, and I knew that I was leaving the show, and it was definitely emotional for me, too, because we become really good friends, and I just knew that it was coming to an end. We did stay friends afterwards, but we didn't see each other as often. You're working and off doing other things, and, you know, you just end up becoming friends with the people you're working with, and that's just the way life goes on these. On these shows. But, yeah, it was definitely emotional because I definitely felt like, you know, this cast, you know, you become a family. So, yeah, it was definitely emotional for me to shoot that last scene.

[Jenna Fisher]

David, did you take anything from set. When you wrapped, do you have a memento? What would you know?

[David Denman]

It's funny. I don't, but I have. I don't know if you guys remember this, but, like, the jacket that all of the Warehouse wears was my jacket that I auditioned with.

[Angela Kinsey]

No.

[David Denman]

Yeah, yeah. I bought this jacket from Old Navy, and I wore it to my audition, and Greg said, I want that jacket. What is that jacket? And it kind of looks like a Dickie jacket, but it wasn't. It was this, like, you know, like, warehouse jacket that Old Navy made. And so poor costumes had to call Old Navy. They called me. They're like, where'd you get that jacket? I have to get it because Greg says everyone has to wear that. So then they bought every. Every. You know, every thing they could get in stock of Old Navy's jacket. So I have that original jacket. I don't wear it anymore. I have it somewhere.

[Angela Kinsey]

Can you imagine if you put that jacket on and Jenna, the two of you met for lunch? Just you in that jacket, Like Jenna with her hair half up, half down.

[Jenna Fisher]

People would be like, well, David, thank you so much.

[David Denman]

Thank you, guys.

[Jenna Fisher]

It was really, really good to see you and reminisce.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, David, what are you up to now that we can talk about here?

[David Denman]

Well, I finished this a while ago. It got pushed because of COVID but I did this movie, Greenland, that's out with Jared Butler and Marina Baccarin that I think will be in theaters by the time this airs. It's like a disaster movie. It's really good. I play a really good, really fun character. I don't want to say anything about it. And I'm doing this series called Mare of East Town with Kate Winslet that we were in the middle of filming, and it's amazing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Holy moly, David. That's amazing.

[David Denman]

She's awesome. It's great.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I'm so excited for you. Kate Winslet is one of my idols. So can we please go out for drinks when you get back?

[David Denman]

I will be happy to do that. I'd love to get drinks. It'd be fun.

[Angela Kinsey]

David, thank you. Thank you so much. It was so wonderful to see you, and I can't wait to see all the things that you're up to. They sound so wonderful.

[David Denman]

Thank you, guys. So good to see you.

[Jenna Fisher]

Thanks, David.

[Angela Kinsey]

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[Jenna Fisher]

Investment advisor view important [e-mail] OfficeLadies Ah, Angela, that was so great getting to talk to David.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know we are just having the best time getting to see everyone from the show. But lady, are you ready to tackle this episode? Because a lot happens.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, and it happens fast. Guys. This episode opens with Roy pacing outside in the parking lot. It's kind of like he's waiting, I think for Jim to come out of the building. But Jim's not coming out of the building.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, it's the end of the day and Jim and Karen are kind of, they're flirting, kind of making their plans what they're gonna do. And Roy gets tired of waiting in the parking lot and he comes on up inside.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, he just, he bursts in, he yells for Jim and Pam is like, oh no.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, did you notice Jim right away looks right to you? Like, oh crap.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. And then a lot happens. So Roy lunges at Jim. Jim just shoves Karen out of the way. He's like, I gotta get Karen out of this line of danger. And right before Roy gets his hands on Jim, Dwight pops up and just pepper sprays Roy in the face.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, Dwight doesn't just spray him, he douses him with the whole container. And it clearly starts to affect everyone in the bullpen.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I remember Jeff Blitz talking to us about this. We had a whole conversation where he was like, listen, it's not just the person who gets hit that suffers the consequences of pepper spray going off like this. It's a, it's a mist that will affect people in a general radius. And they did a bunch of research on it. And I remember us talking about what happens when you get pepper sprayed. And so that's why I was like, okay, well I'm going to pick up a tissue and I'm going to hold it to my eyes. And we were all blinking and kind of coughing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I believe it.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Angela, we had a fan question about this scene from Lila dano, who is 11 years old. Hi, Lila. As well as from Katherine M, Anna C. Stephanie T. Chloe J. And Hannah S. They all asked, what did Dwight actually spray Roy with? Because, I mean, obviously we didn't pepper spray David Denman.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, that's a good question. And I was wondering it as well. I wonder if you had some Kentapedia or Phil Shea info for us.

[Jenna Fisher]

I did ask Kentopedia about this, and Kent said that it was an Evian water bottle sprayer.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, well, that's some good acting then, you guys. Yeah, yeah, you just got misted, basically. You basically went to the spa. An aggressive spa.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, exactly. Well, we had some other people write in Nitya G, Aaron W. Gustavo G, Brianna L. And Carly G. All asked how much choreography went into filming the opening scene when Roy tries to punch Jim, how many takes were needed to get it done. And Kent told me that we did. And I remember this ang about a dozen takes of Roy just rushing in. And we got everyone's reactions and we staged that all out before we ever even got out the spray. And then we only did a couple of takes where we actually sprayed. And everything was overseen by a stunt coordinator. And our stunt coordinator's name was Bobby Porter.

[Angela Kinsey]

I remember Bobby Porter. Yeah, he was so sweet. Well, you know, Kevin and Angela aren't there. They're not there.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, that's right. So you would not have remembered that.

[Angela Kinsey]

No, we weren't there. So. But, you know, obviously Angela has many questions about this moment. We'll get to that.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, she does.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jenna, now we're into the episode, and this is just one of my favorite scenes. Michael is talking to Jan on speakerphone. Toby is there. Jan is like, is Toby there? Michael says, no. And Toby's like, I'm right here, Jan. And so Toby sort of updates Jan that Jim isn't going to press charges. They're going to let Roy go. But because Roy is leaving the warehouse, Darrel now wants a raise. He wants to renegotiate his job, Right?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And this is going to prove to be problematic. And Jan says to Michael, are you going to handle this? And this couplet of dialogue is one of my favorites. Sam, can you play it? Take care of this. Yeppers. What did I tell you about yeppers?

[David Denman]

I don't remember.

[Angela Kinsey]

I told you not to say it. Do you remember that?

[David Denman]

Yeesh.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jenna, I love this so much. I had to rewatch it a few times because this is a window into their relationship. And I love the Jan Michael dynamic so much. How many times has he said yeppers to her at home in their condo? How many times has he said it in the car or whatever they're doing? And she has had it with yeppers. Yeppers is done, and she really doesn't.

[Jenna Fisher]

Want to have to say it again.

[Angela Kinsey]

How many times have I told you not to say yeppers?

[David Denman]

Yes. Yeesh.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. Do you have a word that, like, triggers you like that? Have you had a relationship where someone says something or a friendship?

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, that's a good question. Do you?

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I actually have had someone in my life, no names mentioned, that has said any who. Interesting. And let me tell you, any who repeated over and over. It can make you snap.

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't love the phrase brain fart. I don't. I don't love when people say, oh, I had a brain fart. Why do. I don't know why. I just don't love it. Well, listen, after this, Angela, Pam has this talking head. There's this kind of a series of talking heads. Pam says, you know, she doesn't want to be rude, but she would prefer not to comment on what happened, but it sucked. And at the end of that talking head, I feel like I smirk a little bit. Did you notice this? We had people write in about it. They were like, why does she kind of smirk at the end? She says it sucked, but is she smirking? Because she kind of liked it in some way. You guys, I'm Pam, and I was completely thrown by this performance choice. I don't know what I was doing there.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, I sort of thought you were, like, trying to shrug it off, like it sucked. You know how, like, when people are really uncomfortable, sometimes they smile?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, I think that's what I was doing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

I certainly was not intending to make you think that Pam liked it.

[Angela Kinsey]

No, she was really uncomfortable by it, I think. So uncomfortable that she doesn't even quite know how to relay. Relay it in the moment. It's like someone with a nervous laughter.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, she's. She's embarrassed. And we're gonna see later in the episode, like, she is. She's truly embarrassed by this.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love this episode so much, and I feel like Mike Schur really, really delivered on some dialogue. In particular, I loved when Jim was trying to thank Dwight. He just wanted to thank him. And Rain has great dialogue. As Dwight. He says, thank you not necessary. That's not accepted. Don't want it, won't open it, don't need it, won't take it. He's got this really fun runner of how he is responding to Jim. Just simply trying to say thank you.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. And Jim is going to keep trying to show his appreciation through this episode. And Dwight will not have it.

[Angela Kinsey]

No.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, now, Angela, we get to a scene that I love so much and we got a lot of mail about. Like this is when Oscar gives Angela Roy's check and says, Roy will be coming to pick this up later this afternoon. Kevin is really bummed that he missed the fight. And Angela says to Oscar, yeah, I, I missed it too. Could you, could you describe it? And so Oscar explains the fight and Dwight's heroism. How can we describe it? It has a real effect on Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, guys, let's just call it out. She's totally turned on by this moment of like gallant behavior by Dwight and Roy. I don't know what's happening. The whole interaction clearly does it for her. You have to remember in season five, down the Road Blood Drive, we learn that Angela has had two men duel over her.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

So she has a thing for these dueling fellas. Make sure. I feel like I always like to put my character in these really, like throws of emotion, whether she was incredibly upset or aroused or pissed off. Like, I feel like he liked to see her journey through that.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Well, she's not a very emotionally showy person and I think Mike liked to play with that a little bit.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, we certainly had a lot of fun. I remember when we were doing this episode having conversations with Jeff Blitz and Mike about how much of her hand would she tip right. Like how much would she really show? And that was really fun to play around with. I did some takes where I reacted a little bit bigger, some a little smaller. And just finding those nuances was so much fun for me as an actor.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, we had a fan catch Angela from Madeline Weber and Greg Rodriguez. They said around 4 minutes, 30 seconds. Angela appears to be rubbing a heart shaped necklace while Oscar talks about Dwight's heroic actions. Do you think that this necklace was given to Angela by Dwight? Any thoughts on that, Angela?

[Angela Kinsey]

I have never thought about that. It was actually, if I remember, kind of like a tiny locket. And I remember when I was talking to Jeff Blitz about doing this scene, we talked about ways I might fidget a little to sort of show my emotion in this moment. And wardrobe had given me this necklace and I just began to play with it. I love the idea that it's a necklace that Dwight gave her, though, that adds a nice layer. I didn't think that through, though, so that's a great idea.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, we had more questions, Angela, more mail, please. Excuse me, but people want to know. Ellis Friedman said, said, Angela, you have all of these beautiful micro expressions on your face. How are you able to do that without doing too much? You do it a lot in this series, but you really get to shine in this episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

Aw, thank you. That is so nice. I remember when I got the script and I read Oscar's retelling of it. You know, he's just telling it matter of factly, what happened. But I did a little bit of homework as an actor. I wrote next to Oscar's lines, what emotion that line made me think of. And then when I did the scene, I played through those emotions on my face and they were, you know, an example would be like surprise, nervousness, excited, embarrassed. You know what I mean? So I would go through all of that and just kind of very subtly just do emotions. So as he said his lines, I was thinking of those emotions.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love that. That's so actory, Angela. I know.

[Angela Kinsey]

I do.

[Jenna Fisher]

The actor in me loves it. I love that.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, Jenna, I could talk about these scenes because they were so juicy for me, but let's move along. I want to talk about Michael's tactics that he has learned on Wikipedia. The best thing ever. And he's going to try him out on Jim. These negotiating tactics.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, yes. He wants to role play.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, his ideas are you lean back, you mumble your words, you change location, surprise them. Guys, I looked up the art of negotiation online because, of course I did. And this is not how you do it. As, as we are learning, Michael's ways are not the way to do it. I will tell you, Jenna, there is so much to learn about negotiation. And the more I read, the more I realized what a horrible negotiator I have been in my career. It's a true art form. There's a whole theory of negotiation. I found it fascinating. But one of the things every sort of guide to negotiating has in common. And I, I read Forbes magazine, Business Insider, I went to the Harvard Law School website. And one of the things is they all say, do your homework, know your goals, listen, ask for what you want, right? And also one of the things they talk about is that a negotiation is not the same as conflict. You have to be willing to compromise or just say no if you don't like the offer. And I think I grew up, Jenna. I Don't know if it was just my family dynamic, but to negotiate something seemed confrontational, and it's not. It's just expressing your needs and seeing if that other person or other company or whatever is willing to meet you halfway. And you go back and forth. I found it really. It felt like a mini therapy session for me.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I remember I got some amazing advice from a very successful businessman right before I was getting ready to negotiate a big deal. And he said something that I've noticed especially about women in negotiation is they tend to negotiate with themselves first and they go in with where they've already compromised. So he's like, if you want three weeks vacation, I see women especially talk themselves out of that, or they think that's too much to ask for. So then they ask for two, and then they get one. And he said, so my advice to you is go in there and really ask for what you want. Like, don't negotiate with yourself first. Just negotiate with the company.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

And I've never forgotten it.

[Angela Kinsey]

And it's not conflict. Negotiating is not conflict. It's totally different. It's going in there to be an advocate for yourself.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

I loved it. So anyway, there's tons of really great things online, and then I won't even get into this. Somehow I ended up on a website that talked about the best and worst negotiations throughout history that involve countries and policy, and it was fascinating.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I need to know about that.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. For later. For later. This is a big episode.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, now, Angela, we go back to the annex, and Toby is clearly taking statements on what happened, and he is taking Dwight's statement. In the meantime, Ryan and Kelly are on the other side of the partition, and they are eavesdropping, and they start getting in a fight because Ryan is like, I wonder what I would have done if I'd been there. And Kelly's like, I know exactly what you would have done, because when that kid dropped their shake on me when we were on the Ferris wheel, you just laughed and you didn't stand up for me. And, oh, this starts a whole thing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Ryan and Kelly remind me of that SNL sketch, the Bickersons. Do you remember that? The couple that, like, gets really awkwardly fights at the. At the, like, dinner table and then makes out in the hallway at a party. And they're doing all of this behind Toby. And he has a brilliant line where he says, I don't think Michael intended to punish me by putting Ryan back here with Kelly, but if he did intend that, wow, genius. Yeah. Well, now at seven minutes, 40 seconds, guys, Darryl has arrived to negotiate with Michael, and Michael is already trying out his tactics.

[Jenna Fisher]

He's going to change the location at the last minute, but then he changes it back.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then they sit in silence.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then he won't speak first. Oh, that was so awkward. They sat there for so long.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love Craig Robinson in these scenes. He's so still, Right. He's just sitting there. And it so confuses Michael. Like, Michael does not understand. So finally he says, I'm declining to speak first.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, he can't take it anymore.

[Jenna Fisher]

And Daryl's like, all right, I'll start.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I think, Darrel, if you guys read about negotiation theory, he has come with a clear vision of what he wants. And there's no bs. He's very upfront. And Michael is doing all this weird stuff and cannot understand that Daryl is not thrown by it.

[Jenna Fisher]

And it's at this moment when Daryl says, michael, are you wearing a woman's suit?

[Angela Kinsey]

I think he says, are you wearing lady clothes?

[Jenna Fisher]

That's right. And Michael's like, what are you talking about?

[Angela Kinsey]

Michael goes on to tell this talking head that I love. He said he found a suit in a bin. And. And there were a lot of people, and they were rifling through things like crazy. And. And I don't know, maybe the suit is bisexual. It's. It's missing. It's made by mysterious, and there's buttons on the wrong side. Maybe that's the mystery. It's European. Okay. It's a European cut. He just is, like, rambling all this stuff. And Jenna, I love the idea that Michael went to some crazy day after Thanksgiving, Black Friday craziness at some, like, department store and was rifling through a bin.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. And he was really proud of it. I think he really did think he had bought, like, a European suit on sale. Well, he comes out into the bullpen and he's like, pam, Pam, will you please tell everyone that this is not a woman's suit? And Pam is like, oh, my gosh, it doesn't have any pockets. And then when Steve turns around and, like, shows how he can't put his hands in his back pockets, it makes me laugh so hard.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. And Phyllis is like. And it has shoulder pads.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, let me just say, Angela, this scene points out something that has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. More than a pet peeve. So if you'll excuse me, I need to get my soapbox, and I'm gonna be there for a second.

[Angela Kinsey]

I Was I was gonna say, are you about to stand up on a soapbox?

[Jenna Fisher]

I am. I wanna discuss the lack of adequate pockets on women's clothing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, I know this about you already. Go.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, first of all, I did a deep dive on pockets because it has bothered me for a long time. You know, Angela, I've had back problems, so it is not comfortable or practical for me to carry a purse. So I had this idea I'm going to just carry a wallet in my pocket. Men do it all the time. Why can't I do that? But whenever I would try to put, like, my phone or a wallet in my pockets, they pop out when I sit down. And here is why. Are you ready?

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't know if I'm ready. Bring it.

[Jenna Fisher]

So in the beginning, all clothing was made without pockets. And everyone, men and women, carried around a little pouch with their money and belongings. If you've ever watched Little House on the Prairie, you've seen it. Both Ma and Pa, they both carry around a little pouch.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. All right, and what. What was it was the pouch called?

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't know. It was just a pocket pouch.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, that's so interesting, because I know my mom will still sometimes say, will you get me my pocketbook?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Because your pocket was not a thing that was sewn on you. It was a thing you carried.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, that makes very. I always wondered where pocketbook came from. Okay, go on. I'm interested. Let's do it.

[Jenna Fisher]

All right. So about 400 years ago, they started sewing pockets into men's clothing, but not women's clothing. Clothing?

[Angela Kinsey]

Why not?

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, some historians think that it was a way to keep women sort of powerless. Like, you couldn't hide keys or money or do business. Like your pocket was on the outside of you. You were more vulnerable.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

Less secure.

[Angela Kinsey]

Got it.

[Jenna Fisher]

But then in the late 1800s, there was a movement called the Rational Dress Society.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jenna, are these your people? These are your people. The Rational Dress Society.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, listen to what these women did. What their goal was to quote, dress for comfort and health.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, these are definitely your people.

[Jenna Fisher]

I know. These women are definitely in drawstring pants today, I'll tell you that.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, they are.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, back then, their main goal was to get women to abandon the corset because it was literally unhealthy to wear a corset. And they also really pushed for women to be able to wear trousers with pockets without stigma.

[Angela Kinsey]

Love it.

[Jenna Fisher]

All right. Eventually, in 1920, Coco Chanel started sewing pockets into women's jackets. But it was not until the 1970s, when women regularly started wearing jeans, that we finally had pockets on a regular basis. Angela, that is crazy to me, because.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, the 70s are not that long ago. Someone sitting right here might have been born in the 70s.

[Jenna Fisher]

I was born in the 70s.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. And that's when, like, ladies started having more pockets. That's crazy.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, they started having pockets, Angela, but they weren't great, because pockets on women's clothing are either sewn shut in the example of Michael's suit. What am I supposed to do with that? What am I doing with a faux pocket?

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Or they are proportionally smaller than men's pockets.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh. Oh, that's so true. I cannot fit my cell phone in my pants pocket. It falls out of the side. It doesn't fit.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Angela, I'll tell you what. I read a report that tested 80 pairs of pockets on both men's and women's blue jeans, all with a waist size of 32.

[Angela Kinsey]

So wait, same size pants.

[Jenna Fisher]

Same size pants. So you can't say, oh, the pockets are smaller because women's pants are smaller than men' pants. No, they are proportionally smaller. On average, women's front pockets were 48% smaller and 6.5% more narrow.

[Angela Kinsey]

Why?

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't know.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, I get it if, like, it's like a smaller, like, style. You know what I mean? But on two pairs of jeans that are made the same.

[Jenna Fisher]

You know, Angela, here's my thing, okay?

[Angela Kinsey]

Am I getting out your. Your soapbox?

[Jenna Fisher]

My soapbox is out.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, get on it.

[Jenna Fisher]

Here's what I want to say, Angela. I think we all know that women do not get paid the same as men, even if they're doing the same job. And we also know now that our pockets don't hold as much. I just think we need bigger pockets and bigger paychecks.

[Angela Kinsey]

Cha ching.

[Jenna Fisher]

Can I get my cha ching? Equal pay for equal pockets. Hashtag it, everyone.

[Angela Kinsey]

Hashtag Jenna. I liked the history of pockets. I found that fascinating.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. Thank you very much.

[Angela Kinsey]

You're welcome.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm passionate about pockets. And, Angela, I'm also passionate about high heel shoes and why we shouldn't wear them, but I'll save that for another episode.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, you know, Michael is just so embarrassed and devastated. You know, he's not. He thought he was on top of things with this negotiation, and this has really thrown him.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. He said he made one mistake. You can't make any mistakes in negotiating. But he wore one. But he made one mistake wearing women's clothing.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

And now Jenna, this scene takes us to the kitchen, and I have labeled this scene at 11 minutes, 15 seconds. Kevin the shit stirrer.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, Kevin, listen to what he says to Karen in front of Stanley and Angela. Kevin says, so, Karen, how do you feel that Roy tried to kick your boyfriend's ass over another woman? I mean, yeah, Kevin, sit down. Kevin, you need to sit down.

[Jenna Fisher]

But then Angela is like, you know, I wasn't there. I mean, what happened? I wasn't there because she wants Karen to tell her the story. She cannot get enough.

[Angela Kinsey]

I remember talking to Phil Shea about what I should be eating in this scene. And we thought it would be kind of funny if she's eating grapes. It's a very sort of like. Like, Renaissance moment for her. Like the lady eating grapes being titillated by a story.

[Jenna Fisher]

So now we go back to Michael's office. He and Daryl are still negotiating. And Daryl makes a very compelling argument for why he deserves a raise.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, he said he's picking up Roy Slack. I mean, that. That is so legitimate. But, Jenna, I have to tell you, there is a fantastic blooper moment. If you go to the bloopers on YouTube, you know, Michael is doing that weird mumble tact that we're talking from my back.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And there's some great bloopers of Steve and Craig just cracking up. I loved it.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, I love that. Well, I don't know if you noticed in the background over Darrel's shoulder, Pam is not at reception. Do you know why?

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, that's a good catch. Because she's in the break room.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, she's in the break room. And she's experiencing major heartbreak in the break room.

[Angela Kinsey]

Lady. I titled this scene Despair in the Break Room. Well, despair.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I thought it was so heartbreaking, I felt it warranted a little musical intro. Sam, could you play Heartbreak in the Break Room by Josh Compton?

[David Denman]

There's a cold wind that blows through the hallways Cubicle road at a lonely old phantom of sorrow and Scranton rolls in There's a sad secretary who's mourning the loss of a friend it's the oldest of stories Heartbreak in the break room again Dwight, if you're near Lender and ear and a jacket to shoulder the pain she's not PMSing it's something more pressing Heartbreak in the break room.

[Angela Kinsey]

Again yeah, well, ain't that the truth Heartbreak again Now, Jenna, this scene, when I watched it, I did think of Dwight and Angela scenes just in the fact of the staging.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

He doesn't look at you. His back is towards you the whole time.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Yeah. And Pam gets pretty vulnerable here. She's really trying to connect. She says, I'm really sorry it's over with Roy. And Jim is doing that thing where he's like, oh, yeah, no, I'm sure it's fine. I mean, come on, you guys will get back together again, I'm sure.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, he's being so cold.

[Angela Kinsey]

So cold. And he doesn't believe her. That's the thing. I really believe that he doesn't believe her. He's like, we'll see. You guys were good together. You'll probably figure it out. And she's just like, oh, yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, she just feels so bad, so embarrassed. And, you know, Jim has just been down this road too many times with her. I think he's really, really trying to move on, and that's why he's behaving this way in the scene. He's like, I can't do this again.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Well, I think he's probably frustrated with himself that he let himself get to a place emotionally where he could see them together again. And in Phyllis's wedding, that was just crushed.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And he's just not gonna put himself out there like that.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's too much drama.

[Angela Kinsey]

So much drama.

[Jenna Fisher]

You know, I get it. I get why he's like, you know what? I'm not going there.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Well, then in the next scene, we find out that Michael hasn't had a raise in 14 years.

[Jenna Fisher]

He's never been given a raise ever.

[Angela Kinsey]

Ever. And. And. And he shows Daryl his pay stub. And Daryl was like, oh, my God. Any wonder they're not gonna give me a raise? Look what they're paying you. You've got to ask for a raise.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. And he convinces Michael to call Jan and ask for a raise.

[Angela Kinsey]

But before Michael hits up Jan, we find Jim and Karen in the kitchen.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yep.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jim is eating his carrots.

[Jenna Fisher]

15 minutes, 22 seconds. Bag of carrots.

[Angela Kinsey]

Bag of carrots. And, you know, he wants Karen's advice about how he can thank Dwight. And she was like, well, are you feeling guilty for all those pranks you pulled on him?

[Jenna Fisher]

Jim's like, yeah, maybe that's it. And she says, okay, well, go sell some paper so we can go on a trip.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Focus on work.

[Jenna Fisher]

She's so practical.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. He's like, dang it, I don't want practicality. I want to play pranks with Pam, but I can't because she keeps breaking my heart.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Well, finally, Michael does pick up the phone. Right. He's like, I'm going to call Jan and I'm going to ask for a raise. And he's got Jan on speakerphone and Darryl is supervising. He's kind of like going to be his support, right? His coach. And Jan tells Michael the only way they can discuss a possible raise is if he comes in person by five o'. Clock. And he has to bring Toby.

[Angela Kinsey]

And he says, toby is the worst human being I've ever known.

[Jenna Fisher]

Michael says, I'm bringing Daryl. And she's like, michael, we need someone from hr.

[Angela Kinsey]

So now the three of them are going to be on this weird road trip. In the meantime, Angela still wants to hear this story. Guys, she's not done. And she asked Creed. Here's Creed's version. Ready?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

Big fella comes in about 11:30 at night, screaming, jim stole his car. Big fella pulls out a sock full of nickels. Shrug grabs hairspray and a lighter. So insane. So insane. Angela's like, you're useless. Then she goes to Kelly and Kelly's like, you know, I think Toby wrote a whole report about it. And Angela's like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And she goes and steals the report.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, what is she up to? And I have to point out we haven't talked about it. This is a very classic Angela Martin hairdo.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. I was gonna ask you. It looks like the Angela Martin braid, but also it's a ponytail.

[Angela Kinsey]

I think it's the headband braid ponytail version. I will tell you, it's all my hair. That is not a hair piece. Kim Ferry, the master of hair, she was able to separate a little piece, do this braid over, pin it into a ponytail, and. And that's all my hair, guys.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love it. Did it give you a headache?

[Angela Kinsey]

It didn't. Those did not give me a headache. It was more like the severe buns.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, listen, we're about to hit the road with Michael and Daryl and Toby. But before we do, let's take a break and we'll be right back. All right. Angela and I talk a lot about the fashion finds that we have been getting at Macy's this year and last year. Remember my sequin jacket that I wore all through the holidays? Okay, well, now I've got something for the gentleman. Macy's is having a men's suit sale where you can take 50 to 75% off. So listen, do you have anyone getting married this fall? You know, maybe you want your fella to step up his game. Well, now you've got a good excuse. Take him over to Macy's. They've got great stuff. Calvin Klein, Michael Kors, Nautica, Kenneth Cole. Reaction. You've got to seize this opportunity and get him a couple of suits. Macy's men's semiannual suiting event runs September 4th through the 23rd. Shop now at Macy's.com or in store.

[Angela Kinsey]

All right, if you're like me, you want to look put together, but you don't have a lot of time to put into your routine. To trying to look put together.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'll give it 15 minutes. I want to look polished in 15 minutes. And I'm talking. That's everything that is skincare and makeup.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Well, Merit helps you simplify what it takes to get ready.

[Jenna Fisher]

Merit is designed for people who want to look put together without spending a ton of time on their routine. AKA me and Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's right. Merit is a minimalist beauty brand that has curated sets to create easy to use routines for you.

[Jenna Fisher]

All of their products are clean, vegan, and cruelty free. And they're made with skincare ingredients that leave your skin looking better long after you take your makeup off. In fact, Merit's products are so easy to use, they claim you don't even need a mirror when you're doing your routine.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, okay, I'm listening, Merit. I am listening.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's time to simplify your morning. Head to meritbeauty.com to get their signature makeup bag free with your first order.

[Angela Kinsey]

We're going to talk to you a little bit about Instacart.

[Jenna Fisher]

I'm very passionate about Instacart, so buckle in.

[Angela Kinsey]

I would say almost every single time Jenna leaves me a message after a trip, we always let each other know if we landed, if we made it safe.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yep.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jenna's like, lady, I landed, and I'm just doing my Instacart so that when I get home, my groceries are gonna be there so I don't come home to a house with no food. And we've had a long travel day. And so you'll talk to me while you're doing your Instacart.

[Jenna Fisher]

This was one of my favorite discoveries, because when you travel and then you, like, are coming home, sometimes you get home really late, especially if there's been a travel delay. And that can be very stressful because you're thinking, I have no milk for tomorrow.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right?

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, with Instacart, you can get everything you need. And then I get home groceries. Yay. We go to bed, wake up the next morning, fridge is full. Instacart brings Convenience, quality, and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app and use code officeladies20 to get $20 off your first order of $80 or more.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's code officeladies20 to get$20 off your first order of $80 or more. Offer valid for a limited time, excludes restauran apply.

[Jenna Fisher]

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[Angela Kinsey]

All right, so now Toby and Daryl and Michael are in the car. This is hilarious pairing. No one's comfortable. He's like, you're comfortable? No. You comfortable? No. And then Daryl's like, saying, maybe I'll crash in New York for the night. And Toby's like, how will we get back? He's like, you could stay and then. But Michael's not invited. I know.

[Jenna Fisher]

I love this odd grouping of people. This is one of my favorite things. This feels very Mike Schur to me as well. He loved to team up odd characters. Angela. I have to say, they bring up the movie Rush Hour in the car, right? And this made me think of the movie Speed. Stay with me here. Do you remember a few podcasts back, you were like line for line quoting Speed. And I was like, when is the last time you watched Speed? And you were like, three days ago.

[Angela Kinsey]

Pop quiz. There it is.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I got that in my head. And I was like, huh, Maybe I should watch Speed.

[Angela Kinsey]

Did you watch Speed, Angela?

[Jenna Fisher]

It is so good. Everybody watch Speed, okay? Keanu Reeves, Sandra Bullock, Jeff Daniels.

[Angela Kinsey]

I mean, you guys, this movie has everything. It's action, romance, friendship. I mean, and it's peak. Keanu Reeves Hotness.

[Jenna Fisher]

It is peak Keanu Reeves hotness. Well, Angela, I'll tell you what. I enjoyed Speed so much that then I watched Point Break.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh. Oh, wait. Surf's up, bruh. Yes. Johnny Utah. Are you kidding me? Utah? Let me tell you this.

[Jenna Fisher]

You thought that speed was peak Keanu Reeves hotness, but in Point Break, he starts in the rain and he ends in the rain. Okay. He's. It's a beautiful. Kathryn Bigelow directed it. Again, there is. In the movie Point Break, there is a five minute, at least five minute foot chase through people's backyards and houses.

[Angela Kinsey]

And jumping over fences.

[Jenna Fisher]

When do you see that anymore in movies? I absolutely love both these movies. So I have decided that to get me through the rest of 2020, I will become a Keanu Reeves film aficionado. And I think I'm gonna start next on the John Wick movies, which I've never seen.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, Josh has seen the John Wick movies. He told me they might be too violent for me. But I love Keanu Reeves. You know I love him.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I have seen pretty much all of his movies. But maybe I'll watch John Wick with you.

[Jenna Fisher]

Let's watch John Wick, and we'll get back to each other. We're gonna have to go into some Bill and Ted's. You know, the new one just came.

[Angela Kinsey]

Out, and my friend Aaron Hayes got to kiss Keanu Reeves.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, you're gonna need to get some information on that and bring that to the podcast.

[Angela Kinsey]

Aaron was in Hot Wives of Vegas with me on Hulu.

[Jenna Fisher]

When did she kiss Keanu Reeves?

[Angela Kinsey]

And Bill and Ted's second one. Oh, what about A Walk in the Clouds? What about that one?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, he's. We have a lot to do.

[Angela Kinsey]

Don't get me started on the Matrix. One of my favorite movies ever.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, I don't need to rewatch those because I've seen them so many times, but I will because I want to.

[Angela Kinsey]

There is no spoon.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, I'm so excited. I had no idea you went down that.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's what I'm doing.

[Angela Kinsey]

Rabbit hole. Oh, my God. They play football on the beach. Are you kidding me?

[Jenna Fisher]

All right, so the guys, eventually, they get to New York, they get to Dunder Mifflin, and we find Michael sitting in the lobby, and he looks over to the woman sitting next to him, and she is wearing the same suit.

[Angela Kinsey]

You know, Jenna, I looked up, how many times does Michael Scott wear women's clothing by accident? This is going to be a recurring thing. It is, yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

Do I not remember this?

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay. In launch party, he has on a shirt that's way too tight. And the consensus is that it was probably a woman's shirt.

[Jenna Fisher]

Okay.

[Angela Kinsey]

And then in nepotism, Aaron mentions that the pants Michael had that she had to return to Talbots or something. So clearly he's bought some women's suits repeatedly. And. And he says he won't make that mistake again.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, we got some mail. We had some questions from Miruna T, Brianna K, Megan S, Rachel Hayes, and Dan Salomon. They said, was Steve really wearing a woman's suit, or was it custom made for him? So, Ange, I reached out to Carrie Bennett, our wardrobe designer.

[Angela Kinsey]

Awesome.

[Jenna Fisher]

Here is what she told me. She said it really was a lady's suit. She did not have time to sew something from scratch because they would have had to also sew a matching suit for the woman in the lobby. So here's what she did. She said the first thing she did was try to find a woman's suit that would fit Steve and then hope that she could buy an identical one to fit the woman. So she went to stores with a measuring tape looking for a jacket and pants that would fit Steve's measurements. But also she said it had to look masculine enough that it would be plausible that Michael would be confused enough to buy it from a bargain bin.

[Angela Kinsey]

Right.

[Jenna Fisher]

She said that Steve was always so wonderful and generous with his time in the fittings and that oftentimes he would learn about a plot point for a future episode from her. And this was one of those times she said he walked into a fitting, and she was like, so today I'm gonna need you to try on all of these women's suits. And Steve was like, for why? And she was like, well, let me tell you, there's gonna be an episode next week where this happens, because, you know, they would give the crew these scripts a couple of weeks in advance so they could prepare. But the actors, we would only get them, what, five days before we started.

[Angela Kinsey]

Shooting, Sometimes the Day of Jenna. Sometimes we would get them, like, an hour before the lunch table read. It depended on what kind of turnaround and how long the script was taking. And I learned about storylines many times in wardrobe. I totally relate to that. I remember learning about Dwight and Angela's wedding because I was gonna need to be fitted for a wedding dress.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Jenna, do you realize that this is the first time we meet Hunter?

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Played by Nicholas d' Agosto and Michael's.

[Angela Kinsey]

Like, you didn't tell me you hired James Van Der Beek.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, you know, Angela, this guy has a very extensive resume. I looked him up, but he was in the movie Election with Reese Witherspoon and Matthew Broderick.

[Angela Kinsey]

I love that movie.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, he has starred in Gotham and Trial and Error, but I was very excited because he is the lead of Final Destination 5. And I'm a huge fan of the Final Destination movies.

[Angela Kinsey]

I've never seen one of them. What? Well, you hadn't seen Speed. Come on. I've seen Speed.

[Jenna Fisher]

I just hadn't seen Speed in a while.

[Angela Kinsey]

Had you seen Point Break?

[Jenna Fisher]

Of course I've seen Point Break. It came out in 1991 when I was a senior in high school. Of course I saw it. Every girl who was 17 years old saw Point Break.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, I haven't seen Final Destination. Is it a scary movie? Do they have to get somewhere? And if they don't get there, they die or something? It's their final destination.

[Jenna Fisher]

Here's what happens. Everyone starts the same, but different. There's a major catastrophe. For example, In Final Destination 5, they are supposed to take a bus over a bridge. But, like, a group of kids. Like, it's always, like, a group of teenagers are traveling somewhere by plane or bus or maybe on the highway, and, like, a major accident happens and they're all killed.

[Angela Kinsey]

Asteroid. Something like that.

[Jenna Fisher]

No, it's not science fiction, Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

There's no asteroid that falls from the sky.

[Angela Kinsey]

Okay, okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's always, like, a series of little things that lead to a giant calamity. So, like, someone's tire bursts, and then the car spins, and then that hits a truck, and then things fall off the truck and hit another truck, and then something slams into something, and then the whole bridge ends up collapsing. Right.

[Angela Kinsey]

And they're trapped on the bus, hanging from the bridge or something.

[Jenna Fisher]

No, they're dead. They all die.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh.

[David Denman]

Oh.

[Angela Kinsey]

So then how do you have a movie?

[Jenna Fisher]

Exactly. Every movie opens up with, like, a giant disaster moment, and then it rewinds, and you realize that it's a person's premonition of what's about to happen. And that person freaks out and says, everybody, get off the bus. We're all gonna die. We're all gonna die. And he convinces everyone to get off the bus, and they think he's crazy, and they get off the bus, and then everything happens as they envisioned it. But they live because of the person's weird premonition. Right. Okay, but here's the problem, Angela.

[Angela Kinsey]

Do they all die anyway.

[Jenna Fisher]

They were meant to die on that bus, and they've cheated death. And so death is now gonna come for them slowly, one by one, in the order that they would have died in the accident.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, okay.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. It's the same plot every time, but they're great.

[Angela Kinsey]

Sounds really stressful.

[Jenna Fisher]

I like movies. I like it. They relax me. And I shouldn't say they relax.

[Angela Kinsey]

No, I think they do, Jenna. I think they do, because I think I love you, but you will play out the worst case scenario of every situation to sort of prepare yourself. So I think movies like this are all horrible worst case scenarios. And in your mind you're like, oh, yeah, I would think about that. I can relate to that.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes. Angela, thank you for saying this. I found Uncut Gems very. I don't want to say soothing, but I just want to say that my brain operates on that level of stress and anxiety all the time. So when I see it depicted, it's sort of. It's like it cancels it out. And I feel like, oh, finally someone's meeting me where I am.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. You feel seen. I think you feel seen.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. So whereas I know, like, you or Lee watch a movie like that, and you're like, I can't handle this. I can't do this. Right. Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's not recreation for me. I don't want to feel like that in my free time. I want to watch Pride and Prejudice. I want to watch Keira Knightley say, Mr. Darcy. Mr. Darcy.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, anyway, that was a little bit of a tangent, but I just want you to know. That's Hunter.

[Angela Kinsey]

So now Roy is coming to collect his final paycheck. You know, Angela must be very excited. She's so thrilled. Now Roy and Dwight are in the same room. Oh, anything could happen.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

And there's a moment where Kevin runs out and he goes, jim, Roy, look out. Like, so delayed. It's too late. He's pointing a Twizzler.

[Jenna Fisher]

Is that what it is?

[Angela Kinsey]

It's a Twizzler or a Red Vine. We had a big, big container of them, remember, in the kitchen?

[Jenna Fisher]

Oh, yeah. They were Red Vines.

[Angela Kinsey]

I remember I got into a big debate on set about.

[Jenna Fisher]

About the Red Vines.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes, because I like Red Vines. And then there's the Twizzler camp, and the two don't see eye to eye.

[Jenna Fisher]

You know what? I can enjoy both a Twizzler and a Red vine, but if I had to choose, I might go Red Vine.

[Angela Kinsey]

I'm a Red Vine.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. So there's now sort of this awkward apology moment where Roy apologizes to Jim, and Jim's like, yeah, no worries. And then Dwight is ready, you know, in case he. Roy's gonna lunge again. But he's not. He's just embarrassed and he feels bad. And he asks Pam if she'll have coffee with him one last time.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. He says he just has a few things he has to get off his chest. And she agrees. So then we go to this coffee place, and do you remember this place, Angela? We see a shot of it, and it says the Hungry Fox.

[Angela Kinsey]

It's a real place and it's still there.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes.

[Angela Kinsey]

And I would go there. They actually. They're sort of one of these places, guys, where you can get a little bit of everything. It's kind of like a diner. And I've had their cheeseburger. It's so good.

[Jenna Fisher]

I used to eat there all the time, too, because it was very close to our offices. And Greg told me that he often in the mornings before he went into work, he would stop there and have breakfast and kind of set his head for the day, basically. And so it's kind of cool that we got to shoot at this place that we all really would eat at.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I loved it. It's a little mom and pop place. Well, I have a question for you, Jenna. When I was watching this scene, it occurred to me, I mean, would Pam have wanted the camera crew to come to this? It's such an intimate moment. It's a farewell. And I was so surprised that she would agree to let the camera crew come along.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's interesting that you asked that question, because I actually had the same thought. I thought that it was interesting that this was done on camera, but I had another thought, which was, maybe Pam doesn't want to be alone with Roy.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, that's true. The camera crew would have been a buffer, Especially, you know, we learned that Pam had become friends with some of the crew. Right.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. Later when we find that out.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. So maybe it in some way was this buffer for this moment, and she wasn't sure how that moment was going to play out.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. So it might have made her feel, I don't know, a little better to have them there.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah. Okay, I'll buy that.

[Jenna Fisher]

Well, Roy really apologizes to Pam, and she apologizes as well. She says, we, you know, we both made bad decisions. But then Roy says, so are you gonna date Jim now? And he says, it's sort of like it would be okay with him.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, I don't Know if it would be okay if he's just, like, curious and wanting to know up front so he knows what he has to hear about, you know, through the grapevine. But Pam says no.

[Jenna Fisher]

She's like, he has a girlfriend. But Roy is like, I mean, you called off our wedding for the guy, and now you're not gonna date him. I just don't get you, Pam.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, he calls you Pammy. And you also say. Well, there were other reasons, too, which I think is Pam just being polite and not. Not saying, you did this, you didn't do this. She doesn't want to run him, you know, through the wringer and just leaves it at that.

[Jenna Fisher]

But I do think that Roy saying that is planting the seed for what Pam's gonna do later. Because it's true. It's true. She did call off her wedding to Roy in part because she had feelings for Jim. If she did not have feelings for Jim, I'm not sure she would have called off the wedding just because they were not a perfect match.

[Angela Kinsey]

I agree. I think her. Her feelings for Jim and the way Jim sort of held up a mirror to her life changed her. And he is the reason. He's a big, big part of the reason.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. All right. Well, that was. We talked about this with David a little bit. That was a really special scene for me. I love doing that scene with him. I just love doing scenes with David. He was a great actor. He's a great acting partner. And I was really sad knowing that that was, you know, gonna be the last scene we would do for a while.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know you guys had a really special thing, and I loved being able to watch that scene.

[Jenna Fisher]

He was kind of the first major regular character who had been with us from the beginning, who was leaving the show.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes.

[Jenna Fisher]

And that was. We'd been through a lot. You know, he was part of our origin story. He was with us when the show was struggling, and then he was with us when we started getting awards. And it was really weird to say goodbye.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, well, lady, we should go back to corporate because we've got some unfinished business there. Michael and Jan are in the throes of negotiation, and he says, give me a raise. Are no more sex. And Toby just starts taking notes, and Michael's like, what? You're writing down perv ball? And then I'm telling you, Paul Lieberstein, as Toby, crushes it in this talking head. He talks about what a groundbreaking case this is going to be when it inevitably goes to trial.

[Jenna Fisher]

It's so good. Well, Michael Cannot help but make this personal.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yes. Well, right out of the gate, he says, we're lovers. I mean, right. Right away.

[Jenna Fisher]

Finally, Jan says to Michael, listen, I can give you a 12% raise, but you have to ask me for 15%. Okay, so just ask for 15 and we'll settle at 12.

[Angela Kinsey]

He doesn't get it.

[Jenna Fisher]

He doesn't get it. He says, I want a 15% raise. She said, we can offer you 12. And he says, you said 15.

[Angela Kinsey]

And she's like, oh, Michael.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah, well, he does end up getting his raise. He does. And so does Darrell. And Michael explains that negotiating is an art form. And ultimately, it's more about salary. It's. It's really about the perks, like having sex with jam.

[Angela Kinsey]

And, I mean, moving forward, if Michael ever has another job, which we know he will, how's he gonna negotiate?

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't know.

[Angela Kinsey]

I don't know. I don't think he really learned anything.

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't know. Well, now it's the end of the day at Dunder Mifflin. All is quiet.

[Angela Kinsey]

People are leaving. Did you catch. As Phyllis is leaving, she mentions it's very sort of under. Under dialogue as they're leaving, she says that her and Bob are looking at historical homes near the river.

[Jenna Fisher]

No, I did not catch that.

[Angela Kinsey]

What a great nugget. I'm like, what the heck?

[Jenna Fisher]

I cannot get enough of Bob and Phyllis fans.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. I would have loved to seen more of them.

[Jenna Fisher]

Something we haven't talked about exactly, are all the ways that Jim keeps trying to pay Dwight back. So, like, you know, he tries to give him a display case for his bobblehead, and he tries to give him this certificate of bravery from the Scranton Police Department. But it's, you know, something they give to little kids.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, it has a teddy bear on it. It does.

[Jenna Fisher]

And he just throws it away. And Jim just can't figure out how he can repay Dwight. And, well, then he finds a way.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, he does. So, yeah, everyone's left. Angela and Dwight think they're alone. Angela tells Dwight she's heard tales of bravery. Yeah, a gallant hero. And maybe they'll have to read the report. Toby's report together later. And Dwight just scoops her up and gives her a big old smooch. And who walks out of the bathroom?

[Jenna Fisher]

Jim. He sees it all, and he's like.

[Angela Kinsey]

Oh, my gosh, his face is so brilliant.

[Jenna Fisher]

Now, there are two things that the scene made me think of. So number one, I noticed that when rain comes over to you, he sits on your desk Was that intentional? So you guys would be kind of the same height to start kissing?

[Angela Kinsey]

Always, Always. At almost every scene Dwight and Angela have together, he is seated. Look it up, guys.

[Jenna Fisher]

I totally noticed it.

[Angela Kinsey]

He is what, six foot three? I am five one.

[Jenna Fisher]

And here's the other thing that the scene made me think of, which is that Jim has this talking head where he says, I will never say a word. And now we're even. So this means that Pam never told Jim what she knows about Dwight and Angela's relationship.

[Angela Kinsey]

That's right.

[Jenna Fisher]

Pam completely kept that a secret.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah, Pam. I mean, I will say this. Pam does right by Angela. Over and over. She does.

[Jenna Fisher]

I was like, I guess I had forgotten that Pam never told Jim.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, I have a little behind the scenes story about this scene. We did probably like three, three or four takes just to get the timing right of Jim walking out and reacting. In one take, Rain sort of does this huge grand gesture where he shoves everything off Oscar's desk. You know, he like takes his hand and sweeps across the desk and everything goes flying. And he. And I'm like, he picks me up and lays me down on the desk. And we thought it was hilarious. And Jeff Lips was like, it's probably too much too big.

[Jenna Fisher]

But that kind of goes with your whole, like, grape eating.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know.

[Jenna Fisher]

Whole like renaissance passion.

[Angela Kinsey]

I know. Ooh, look at my ankle. Ooh, Yeah, I know, but that cracked me up. But yeah, that is not the take we went with. And then before the show ends, Andy returns. Guys, he is back from anger management. He's not going to blow his second chance. He walks in the office and immediately gets pepper sprayed by Dwight. Yes. This leads to Toby taking away all of Dwight's weapons underneath his desk. He had a. A little Sharpie star thing. What do they call it? You throw the starring people. Our Sharpie star. And he had nunchucks and pepper spray all duct taped under his desk. Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

I think maybe Toby's next stop should be Creed's drawer. Because remember when Creed was able to whittle the wooden stake, he opened his drawer and he had like a lot of stuff in there.

[Angela Kinsey]

I feel like there's a world where Creed hits a button and his desk flips up and there's stairs that go below the office into an underground bunker. And he has everything you need for any doom. Doomsday scenario. Well, Dwight ends this with a talking head saying he's not a hero, just a defender of the office. A real hero is hero from Heroes, which was an NBC show on @ the time.

[Jenna Fisher]

Huge, huge show.

[Angela Kinsey]

Huge, huge show. Remember what was their big catchphrase? Protect the cheerleader.

[Jenna Fisher]

I don't remember. Yeah, that sounds right.

[Angela Kinsey]

Save the cheerleader. Sam says, save the cheerleader. Turns out cheerleader didn't need saving. She had superpowers. Before we say goodbye to the negotiation, Jenna, there's something really important we missed.

[Jenna Fisher]

We did not talk about in the negotiation.

[Angela Kinsey]

Yeah.

[Jenna Fisher]

What?

[Angela Kinsey]

We find out Ryan's middle name. Yes. Ryan Bailey Howard.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yeah. We also find out that Kelly wants to name their child Usher Jennifer Hudson Kapoor.

[Angela Kinsey]

Well, that's it for the negotiation. You guys, thank you so much for sending in your questions. And to David Denman.

[Jenna Fisher]

Yes, David, thank you so much. Guys. We are getting close to wrapping up season three here. We're in the final stretch of episodes and they are all going to get good.

[Angela Kinsey]

Real good.

[Jenna Fisher]

We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to Office Lady's second drink.

[Angela Kinsey]

This episode was initially created in collaboration with Earwolf.

[Jenna Fisher]

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

[Angela Kinsey]

Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins and our audio engineer and associate producer is Molly Nugent. Odyssey's executive producer producer is Leah Reese.

[Jenna Fisher]

Dennis. Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz. Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.