Awe Psychology (WONDER) with Dacher Keltner

Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward — Awe Psychology (WONDER) with Dacher Keltner

Release Date: June 3, 2026
Host: Alie Ward
Guest: Dr. Dacher Keltner (Professor of Psychology, UC Berkeley, Author, Host of The Science of Happiness Podcast)

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the science and transformative power of awe—those moments when you feel small in the face of something vast and breathtaking, from nature to art to human connection. Alie Ward and awe expert Dr. Dacher Keltner delve deep into what awe is, how it manifests in our minds and bodies, where to find it, why it matters, and how even brief awe experiences can improve mental health and connection in a time marked by loneliness and anxiety.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is Awe? (04:05–06:44)

• Defining Awe:
  • Dr. Keltner defines awe as “the feeling of being in the presence of something vast that transcends your current understanding of the world.” (00:00–03:30)
  • Awe can be joyous or arise in profound, even difficult, contexts—such as loss or profound life changes.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Awe is often, for people, ineffable—it's hard to describe. It's so amazing, it's beyond your knowledge. How in the world can we make sense of this?"
    — Dacher Keltner (04:26)

Recognizing Awe—in Others and Ourselves (04:05–06:23)

• Facial and Bodily Expressions:

  • Universally recognized by the dropped jaw, widened eyes, and certain vocalizations (“whoa!” or “ahh!”), which are evolutionarily ancient.
  • Bodily signs include goosebumps, warmth in the chest, and tears—indicative of physiological awe responses.

• Shared Experiences:

  • Awe is often collective: concerts, movie theaters, sporting events, and communal rituals intensify individual awe into “collective effervescence.”
  • Notable Quote:

    “You really feel like—wow, I'm a shared mind here. There’s something beyond me that's real. And it is.”
    — Dacher Keltner (09:53)

Awe, the Brain, and the “Default Mode Network” (09:53–12:42)

• Brain Activity During Awe:
  • Awe reduces activity in the Default Mode Network—the brain’s self-focused “me” system. This results in quieting self-critique and a feeling of “ego dissolution,” similar to what occurs during psychedelic experiences or intense group rituals.
  • Notable Quote:

    “In the brain, the ‘me’ starts to disappear... that small ego death, maybe.”
    — Dacher Keltner (10:51)

[10:05] Brain research shows that awe, nature, and music deactivate self-focused brain regions, fostering connection and presence.

Awe as Antidote to Loneliness & Mental Health (13:09–14:52)

• COVID-19, Technology, and Disconnection:
  • The pandemic intensified youth and general isolation; social media can worsen loneliness.
• Awe Interventions:
  • Even one “awe moment” a day (as little as 60 seconds recalling an awe experience, listening to music, or noticing nature) reduces loneliness, anxiety, and depression.
  • Notable Quote:

    "One minute a day gets you out of loneliness. We just said, stop everything... think of a moment of awe... and it reduced anxiety, depression, and loneliness."
    — Dacher Keltner (14:31)

The “Eight Wonders” — Where to Find Awe (08:14–19:40)

• Eight Sources of Awe:

  • 1. Moral Beauty (courage/compassion in others)
  • 2. Collective Effervescence (group rituals/movement)
  • 3. Nature
  • 4. Music
  • 5. Visual Design (art, architecture, even graffiti)
  • 6. Spirituality/Religion
  • 7. Life and Death (moments of transition)
  • 8. Epiphanies (big ideas/realizations)

• Materialism Doesn’t Inspire Awe:

  • Across cultures, stories of awe never referenced “money” or consumer possessions.
  • Notable Quote:

    “Awe occurs in a realm separate from the mundane world of materialism, money acquisition, and status signaling...Many call [it] the sacred.”
    — Dacher Keltner (18:14)

Awe in Novelty and Everyday Life (16:19–23:14)

• Novel Experiences:

  • Travel, new environments, and even noticing the novelty in everyday life are major awe sources.
  • Children tend to experience more awe because the world is new to them; adults can cultivate “beginner’s mind” to rediscover this.
  • Notable Quote:

    “The challenge of life is to try to find [novelty and awe] as much as you can.”
    — Dacher Keltner (17:19)

• Collective Movements & Shared Moments:

  • Mosh pits, concerts, farmer’s markets, or night markets—the joy and awe of merging with groups.

Nature as a Universal Pathway to Awe (26:46–29:56)

• Nature Routines:
  • Walks, stargazing, smelling plants, listening to running water, or simply sitting outside—all elicit awe.
  • Humans’ senses are attuned to feel awe in nature as a signal of safety and resources, with both ancient and practical significance.
• Nature & Self-Perception:
  • People describe themselves as smaller (even draw themselves as little stick figures) when reflecting on experiences in nature—a graphical representation of self-transcendence.
• Inclusivity of Awe:
  • Even in cities, moments of nature can be found and foster awe.

Awe Practice: Everyday Tips and Routines (31:09–34:13, 37:27–38:11)

• Simple Practices:
  • Pause for a minute, breathe deeply, recall an awe-filled moment, listen to favorite music, spend time in nature, or reflect on a person who inspires “moral beauty.”
• Tips:
  • Make it a routine—schedule “awe walks” or intentional pauses throughout the week.
  • Reengage with shared art or group experiences.
  • Notable Quote:

    “Find five minutes a week to do that kind of thing.”
    — Dacher Keltner (33:56)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Awe’s Ubiquity:

  “Here is this transcendent experience and usually associated with spirituality, but it really is everywhere. And so we gotta remember that.”
  — Dacher Keltner (23:14)

• On Mosh Pits as Awe:

  “Mosh pits actually are very collaborative. They look like chaos, but they're...mathematically very principled, and people move around and lose themselves, and they have an ethical code.”
  — Dacher Keltner (21:18)

• Alie on Everyday Awe:

  “Keep an eye out for awe in some smaller, quieter moments, like a train ride on a Tuesday or afternoon rain some Thursday or a summer Sunday morning—it’s everywhere you look, apparently. You just have to take notice.”
  — Alie Ward (21:38)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–04:02 – Introduction & Dr. Keltner’s credentials
• 04:05–06:44 – Defining and expressing awe, signs in self and others
• 06:44–08:14 – Awe’s role in life and meaning-making; personal stories
• 08:14–10:05 – The social/collective contexts of awe; “Eight Wonders”
• 10:05–12:42 – Awe & the Default Mode Network; parallels with psychedelics
• 13:09–14:52 – Awe as antidote to loneliness; research post-pandemic
• 16:19–18:14 – Finding awe in novelty, travel, and shared experience
• 18:14–19:40 – Awe and materialism; “Eight Wonders” detailed
• 20:53–23:14 – Group movements, mosh pits, and collective awe
• 26:46–29:56 – Nature as a path to awe; practical accessibility
• 31:09–34:13, 37:27–38:11 – How to cultivate awe daily

---

Awe in Everyday Practice: How-To

1. Pause: Take 1–5 minutes a day to stop, breathe, and notice.
2. Music: Listen to music that brings chills or tears.
3. Nature: Get outside, even if it’s just to a patch of grass.
4. Recall Moral Beauty: Reflect on someone whose kindness, creativity, or courage moved you.
5. Seek Novelty: Notice “first times” and playfully approach the familiar as if new.
6. Connect: Attend events, markets, or group experiences; immerse yourself in the collective.

“Put away your phone, just calm and take a deep breath and listen to a piece of music that really means a lot to you... Find some places nearby where you can experience nature... Think of someone who inspires you, and just dwell on that.”
— Dacher Keltner (37:27)

---

Closing Reflection

This episode highlights how intentionally seeking out awe—no matter how small or fleeting—can reconnect us to ourselves, others, and the world, providing a powerful antidote to anxiety, loneliness, and self-absorption. Awe is accessible, universal, and good for the mind and heart.

---

For Further Exploration

• Book: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life by Dacher Keltner
• Nonprofit Spotlight: Bay Area Freedom Collective (supporting community reentry after incarceration)
• Practices & Research: Greater Good Science Center resources and “awe walk” guides

---

For more info, links, and show resources visit:
Ologies Podcast

---

Summary by Ologies Podcast Summarizer | Episode: Awe Psychology (WONDER) with Dacher Keltner | June 3, 2026

Transcript

[A]

Oh, look at this. This is a special episode of Ologies I'm very excited about and it's brought to you by the lovely vacation rental service vrbo. And today, this is all about awe, as you have probably noticed from the title. And we're going to talk about exactly what awe is, but you have probably felt it if you've ever stopped in your tracks to go whoa. And felt connected to something bigger. Especially if you've ever seen something you've never seen before or you've traveled. Travel is one of the easiest ways to really stock up on those awe filled moments and share it with other people. So we're going to talk about how that works in the brain actually. And vrbo, thank you for sponsoring this. They make it easy to bring your people together in one place so you can actually share those experiences and they work hard to get everything right before you arrive. And if something does go wrong, VRBO care and 247 customer support are there to help make it right. The people on your trip are full of surprises. Not your vrbo. So book your next day on the vrbo app. I just did. Literally. Oh hey, it's the sidewalk chicken bone your dog yearns for. Alie Ward. This episode is nearly a decade in the making. I don't even wanna waste time on an intro, but I'm gonna roll through this ologist's cred as fast as I can. PhD, Stanford University. Cool as hell, dude. Distinguished professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley's Social Interaction Laboratory. Chill. Founder and Co director of the Greater Good Science Center. Author of several textbooks and books just for regular people. Most recently a book called the New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform youm Life. Also very nice. Host of the day dazzling podcast the Science of Happiness. Worked to stop solitary confinement at San Quentin. Prison researcher whose papers have been cited over 100,000 times. So a dream. After years, years of hoping to have him on ologies, but schedules just being difficult to wrangle, we finally joined up by video call. And despite all of his awards and life changing work, he just hopped on casually. He's got chin length blonde hair, a very easy aura. You could easily mistake him for a guy who spends his days drumming bongos on a beach. But he is very busy and I was thrilled to finally meet him and chat about awe and the word awe. It shares a root of course with awesome and also awful. But like all words, there's been a lot of elasticity over time. And this ologist has defined the word awe as a Perceived vastness. Or more specifically, as he recalls in his books, defining it with early colleagues, awe is the feeling of being in the presence of something vast that transcends your current understanding of the world. Whew. So let's. Let's get into it and we're going to discuss awe's origins in the brain, where to find awe, noticing it when you feel it. Novel experiences, boulevards, graffiti, modern day connections, how a dark sky can change a life, goosebumps at concerts, why remembering awe can fix your day, how even the toughest moments of life can be awe filled, getting an elbow thrown at you in good fun. And why thinking about lettuce can make me cry with authority. Professor, researcher, podcast host, and really cool guy who is changing how we think about mental health. Dr. Dacher Keltner.

[B]

Dacher Keltner. He and him.

[A]

I know that you know a lot about facial expressions, and so it's nice to be on video with you. You have studied facial expressions. And I'm wondering, when you're talking about awe, how do we recognize it in other people and in ourselves? Is it just like a dropped jaw? What's going on?

[B]

Yeah, you know, and it's actually a really deep question because awe is often for people when they experience it, it's ineffable, it's hard to describe. It's so amazing. It's beyond your knowledge. Like, how in the world can we make sense of this? And so one way that we know someone else is experiencing awe is through what I've studied for 35 years in the spirit of Paul Ekman and Charles Darwin, which is the face, like, oh, you know, the voice which I just made. So, Ali, what would you sound like if you. If you felt awe?

[A]

Oh, I would. There'd be squealing. It'd probably be like, Well, probably that. Probably something high pitched in a dolphin language.

[B]

Excellent. Well, that has a little. That has the awe sound in it, which I hope our audience heard of. Like, ah. But it also had a little bit of squeal of delight. Yeah. So around the world, we call those vocal verse. They are very meaningful sounds that are old in evolution. And around the world, people like, whoa, you know, and so we know when someone's feeling awe with those signs. And then, you know, just as importantly is, how do I know I'm feeling awe? Right. And so it's been interesting talking about Al for a couple of years because people often say, like, I kind of know what you're talking about. Like, I saw this incredible sunrise. But is that awe and we know it from our bodies, right? This rush of goosebumps, which is a very specific kind of accompaniment to awe. The feeling of warmth in the chest, which is your vagus nerve. People tear up a lot. You know, I was just talking to some friends who's, you know, when you watch your children perform in school, you know, you just start weeping. And that's a bodily response ball that tells us in very interesting ways this is a transcendent moment of the emotion.

[A]

And I know you begin your book with a really beautiful tale that moved me very much about the death of your brother and witnessing that and how that was a moment of pure awe. And so awe is not always something that is a joyous occasion, but it's just bigger than us.

[B]

That's so important because in the science of happiness that I've been part of for 30 years, we've studied pleasure and joy. And now the field is getting interested in experiences that really are beyond our understanding, which we might think of as meaning making. And awe, in some sense, is the quintessential experience of, like, I don't understand why my brother passed away, or what is life, or the cycles of life and death that are part of spring and evolution, or the stars in the sky. When kids ponder space and that's all right, it's like, God, how do I start to integrate what's beyond my understanding into my view of the world and just to return to wonder and what we might imagine is our next move.

[A]

I know that you ask participants in studies about moments to recall some of their widest experiences of awe, you know, something that stuck with them. And I'm curious if you find that there's a lot of connection to other people that happens, or if it's purely visual or if it's sonic. When I think about some of my biggest moments of awe, I feel like they're shared experiences. You know, when you're in a movie theater, when you're watching something funny with someone else and you're laughing out loud more than you would, you know, when. How does awe impact our. Our personal relationships?

[B]

Yeah, that's such a terrific question and observation, Ally. You know, we surveyed 26 different countries, had people write stories of awe. We coded them and placed them into what I call the eight wonders, which is music, art, spirituality, nature, big ideas, the life cycle, music, and collective movement. But it's fascinating, and you've really brought something new, which is that in some fundamental way, the transcendent quality of all of these experiences occurs because we're connecting and Merging with other people. So music's a classic example. Like a Swifty goes to a Taylor Swift concert, sees Taylor come on stage, and suddenly is merging with 15,000 people and having a sense of transcendent self. Right.

[A]

Average crowd size. I looked this up, actually, 70,000 people. That's so many vibes.

[B]

We find we do research in museums like the National Gallery and some science museums, and very often you're looking at a painting and you're kind of sharing that experience with somebody, and suddenly your minds are merging. And so in a lot of ways, collective effervescence is emerging. Right. It's where you're at a sporting event or you're dancing with people, and our bodies sync up. We start to mimic each other and mirror each other physiologically. And I love the psychological effects of that because you really feel like, wow, I'm a shared mind here. There's something beyond me that's real. And it is.

[A]

I'm wondering, too, in your research, if you were to put someone in a functional MRI and show them pictures or have them recall, do we know where the brain is going, beep, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

[B]

Yeah, we do. We know. The big story right now, and this will refine with more precise measurement and better statistics, is the default mode network, which is big chunks of your cortex on the side and the front, which is about the self, tends to deactivate when you feel awe. And that's where neuroscience is really illuminating, because when you ask people about awe, they say, like, I get quiet. I feel small. We did research on that. You just get kind of small. You feel like, you know, in psychedelics, like, I'm dissolving. I'm just. There's no me, you know? And lo and behold, in the brain, the me starts to disappear.

[A]

And it's interesting that you can. That you can channel a little bit of that, even with a walk. And our sense of almost like a small ego, death, maybe.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, across all experiences, people talk about like, wow, my sense of self got small. I didn't hear that voice of like, you know, what are you doing right now? And are you achieving your goals? And, yeah, their self critique, so common today.

[A]

And in our psychedeliology episode with the legend, the legend, Dr. Charles Grob of UCLA, he told us that this default mode network is tasked in the central nervous system to hold it together and to ruminate on things and to be somewhat obsessive, somewhat negativistic. He said, although the default mode network is not just like a Little bitch that lives in your brain. It's highly active when someone is essentially in their head, not focused on the outside world, and is mind wandering or daydreaming or concerned about just getting stuff done. To paraphrase the 2018 paper, default mode network can support the level of detail and experience during active task states. And the Default mode network stitches your experiences together to say, this is who I am, this is what's going on. And in terms of understanding its role, Neuroscientists observe brain activity in subjects on psilocybin therapy and have found in those pharmacological settings, the Default mode network goes a bit offline and then recalibrates to be far less active. So less in their heads, leading people with this greater sense of connectivity to things outside of themselves, as Dr. Grob explained it to us. But you need not trip all the way out to experience this. You do all the time. You probably just don't notice.

[B]

That's all part of this Default mode network. Big chunks of your cortex and awe reduces activation there. And what's really cool, you know, and this is why we do neurosciences. That's what happens with psychedelics. That's what happens with intense musical experiences, the deactivation, that's what happens in nature. And awe, it tells us how wonderful it is to lose the self in all of these wonders of life.

[A]

So losing the connection to self, as it turns out, is incredibly good for our brains. What's not great is losing connection to others. Do you think that in the last six years since quarantine with COVID and things like that, do you find in your research that people are more isolated, that they're not spending as much time with the people they love or with strangers or people watching? Has that research changed?

[B]

When I follow the isolation, loneliness data and you know, Covid was a tough hit, especially for young people 18 to 30. Really took a hit during COVID in terms of connections and community, what we've been talking about, and Vivek Murthy, our former surgeon general, is saying this is an epidemic and it's spreading to different parts of the world, largely because of scrolling and looking at Instagram, you start to feel lonely. And one of the findings I'm most proud of is that a little moment of awe, suddenly you don't feel lonely. You can go listen to an awe inspiring piece of music. You can go out in nature, you can sort of think of a person of moral beauty to you, who inspires you. You'll feel like, God, I'm part of humanity. And that's an antidote to the loneliness. Even one minute a day gets you out of loneliness.

[A]

One minute a day?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, we work with healthcare providers for 21 days. One minute a day. We just said, stop everything you're doing. You're in a hospital, put away your devices, think of a moment of awe. And we guided them and it reduced anxiety, depression and loneliness. So doesn't take much.

[A]

So filling up your awe bank to look back on can help even on later days when you're feeling lonely or anxious or depressed. Honestly, I'm thinking of this trip that I went on with friends a few years ago. It was one autumn and it was the early evening before Thanksgiving dinner. The sun was going down and we went out to the garden and we picked fresh vegetables and there was so much to smell and look at. And just thinking of it gives me like goosebumps and a lump in my throat. And I never knew until this interview that that feeling was awe. Just making this family dinner with people I really love and I don't get to see enough. And just one of my favorite life memories, just strolling and picking pomegranates and arugula. And I know you go on awe walks, you say every day. Yeah. One thing that was so interesting to me that I love that you talk about both of these is novel experiences versus familiar and that you can find them in both. And I traveled a lot for work for a long time and I didn't travel for pleasure very much. Cause I was on the road, you know, So I just started traveling again for pleasure with family members and husband and stuff. Why do you think being in those novel experiences is just such a daisy chain of awe moments?

[B]

You know, the core to awe is when what you encounter is beyond your understanding in that moment of the world. That's why children, many. You know, my experience raising my two daughters is like so much awe early in life because everything is new. Right. The Buddhists talk about the beginner's mind of air. Try to make everything new to you and put away your pre existing ideas and concepts and prejudices. And when you travel, what's extraordinary is everything is different. You know, I remember going to Europe when I was 16 with my brother and it's just like, man, the garbage cans are different. And check out how small the garbage truck is. And you know, God, the men wear bright colors. I can't believe this, you know, and check out the mustaches. Yeah. And you're just like, wow, you know, and that's wonderful. And so the challenge of life is to try to find that as much as you can.

[A]

That's so funny. I just got back from New York day before yesterday and, you know, just walking with music in my ears and how big this city is and that bigger than me and how everyone has a story and, you know, walking on cobblestones and how old they were and who laid them and. And some of my awe moments, some of those moments that almost bring a tear to my eye have been in unexpected proximity to friends. Are you more conscious about who you're spending time with or who you're experiencing these big moments with?

[B]

You know, Ali, I love your inquiry because what you're saying, and I think you're really right, which is that underlying the awe of music or visual art or a big idea or getting out in nature is emerging, right? Emerging with another form of life or another form of consciousness.

[A]

And in his 2023 book, the New science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life, Dr. Keltner goes into more depth on those eight wonders of life, which he formally lists as moral beauty, like other people's courage or kindness or. Or strength, collective effervescence, experiencing something in a big group. Nature, music, visual design. And he cites in his book the grand boulevards of Paris or a Mayan pyramid or graffiti of Barcelona. And he says for some, maybe a machine that sorts pills is a feat of visual design. He also cites spirituality and religion, life and death and epiphanies. And he writes that. And I thought this was so interesting. He says it also merits considering what was not mentioned in stories of awe from around the world. Money did not figure into awe much at all. No one, he says, mentioned their laptop, Facebook, Apple watch or smartphone. Nor did anyone mention consumer purchases like their new Nikes, Tesla Gucci bag or Montblanc pen. And he continues, awe occurs in a realm separate from the mundane world of materialism, money acquisition and status signaling, a realm beyond the profane that many call the sacred.

[B]

And the most fundamental is, is with other humans, you know, your best friends and your. Your children and your partners. One of the things that I write about in the book is that the neurophysiology of awe is fascinating. It's transcendent. The vagus nerve is activated. Oxytocin is released. Your parasympathetic, calming, opening branches to your nervous system are activated, giving rise to tears. And that's the neurophysiology of merging early in life, when you come into life and you look up at the caregivers around you and you make eye contact and you really merge. And. And I think at the core, as you've rightly suggested, is listening to music. We think of it as our own interior experience, but in fact, it's really emerging with the sounds and the person who made the sounds, the band, the people appreciating it. So I think merging is key. And, you know, what a desperately needed experience right now. We're so asynchronized with others because of the technologies, and awe gives us that merging, which is transcendent, really.

[A]

I think back to the times when I was a Bay Area youth in mosh pits, and I was like, some of those biggest moments.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you're getting to a sweet spot of mine.

[A]

You know what I mean? You're literally moving like fish in a school, bouncing to the same music, and it's bigger than you can even imagine, you know?

[B]

Yeah. No mosh pit. Every human should go into a mosh pit.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

And I love that finding because mosh pits actually are very collaborative. They look like chaos, but they're. They're mathematically very principled. And people move around and lose themselves, and they have an ethical code to them, and they tell us, humans hunger for this collective movement.

[A]

Now, you do not have to inhale someone else's hair or sweat to feel awe, but you should. You should do it at least once. Just don't get hurt. And if, like, Industrial Death Corps is not your thing, then keep an eye out for awe. In some smaller, quieter moments, like a train ride on a Tuesday or afternoon, rain some Thursday or a summer Sunday morning, it's everywhere you look, apparently. You just have to take notice.

[B]

We want to feel merging with others and sharing and movement. And what I love is the reemergence of these processes. Like farmer's markets. Do you go to a farmer's market?

[A]

Oh, I love them. When you go to a farmer's market and you're like, they have huckleberries here. Huckleberries are real. You know, like all of these things, like night markets.

[B]

What the heck is this? Cinnamon roll. I know, I know.

[A]

It's so exciting. And you never know what things are going to taste like.

[B]

Yeah. Not only that, and that's the novelty of art, but then you're like, you're listening to the little kids play music, and you're, you know, somebody gives you some fresh kale, and you see the nice person in the eyes, and you give somebody a hug and somebody's reading poetry, and next thing you know, you're like, There's a lot of awe here and a lot of collective life. So it's. It's a deep need that we have. And what I loved about studying Awe is here. It is this transcendent experience and usually associated with spirituality, but it really is everywhere. And so we gotta remember that.

[A]

Let's talk about everywhere, like, outside, in just a minute. But first, let's donate to a cause of this ologist's choosing. And this week, Dr. Keltner chose the Bay Area Freedom Collective. It's a grassroots project. They're doing amazing work. It ensures that community members returning from prison are connected to the resources and support they need to be safe, healthy, and empowered as they rebuild their lives. And the Bay Area Freedom Collective provides rides, a safe and sober home, connections, community outreach, and everyday support, and raises awareness about the impact of incarceration on our communities and the Bay Area Freedom Collective. Again, it's a great cause. And that donation is only possible because of sponsors of the show. So we were able to make a considerable contribution to them this week. So thank you to VRBO for sponsoring today's episode. It has been very cool to look back and think about the times I've felt awe and the times I felt really connected to people and connected to something bigger than me. And so many of those have been traveling. We're sitting here talking about how money and material possessions aren't the things that inspire awe, but it's nature and it's music and it's epiphanies, and it's that collective effervescence that you have around people. And I think that's why trips do feel so meaningful, because you're stepping outside your routine. You're experiencing something together. You're remembering how big the world is. You're remembering how we're just a little part of it, which, when you get home, helps you not sweat the small stuff. And actually, just this week, I booked a VRBO vacation rental to go on a girls trip with two of my girlfriends. One of them's having a birthday, and she's a big birder. And I found a place on vrbo. You're not even gonna believe this. This is just a true personal experience here that was tailored to birdwatchers. No joke. The bedspreads have birds on them. All the pictures on the wall, gorgeous wildlife photography. It's next to a birding hotspot and miles and miles of trails on protected land. She has no idea we're going. I found this place on vrbo. I freaked out. I sent it to my other friend. The exclamation points in the text thread excessive but warranted. So I'm so excited we're gonna go there this weekend for her birthday and I'm really stoked to think about the dark skies I'm gonna see, the birds, the hiking, the laughs we're gonna have. It's exactly what I need and I know she's gonna dig it. So VRBO is built for that kind of connection, giving you a space to come back to and whether it's recounting the day or cooking together or just being in the same place. And it definitely helps remove some of the stress that can come with planning group travel. They focus on getting the details right ahead of time. And if something unexpected happens, Verbo care and their 247 support team are there to help. So you can stay focused on those awe moments and birds and stars in my case. So you can check out the vrbo app for your next group trip. You deserve it. It's scientifically good for you. Okay, let's talk about the birds and the bees. But really just going outside, can we talk a little bit about nature and awe? Cause that's another easily accessible and quiet sometimes, unless you're next to a roaring waterfall. But yeah, what is it about nature that gives us that sense?

[B]

You know, and I continue to study this. So one of our most common sources of awe worldwide is nature. You know, big trees and oceans and the pattern of waves and electrical storms and the big night sky. There's work by Troy Allen in Utah and just like getting people out to look at the big sky.

[A]

So Dr. Troy Allen, I just looked him up. He's at Utah State University Extension and he specializes in mental health and and nature focused programs for veterans and for rural populations, including teens. And for more on his work, you can see the 2026 paper time vastness and belonging outcomes from a Teen Dark sky curriculum pilot in Colorado. So essentially, hey, it works to take kids out to look at the sky and see something bigger than what's on their phone. But if you're like shooting, Utah's too far and there's no way anyone would believe I'm a high school sophomore, don't worry, you could always take a little road trip to a dark sky area. Or you just sit on the porch, check out a meteor shower. You can look at the next full moon. You can go glamping, just go outside, feel some air, smell some plants, you

[B]

know, and the stars. In England they have the cloud spotting society. Just nature is filled with awe. It's so remarkable. Ali. A lot of our sensory systems are finely tuned to feel awe in response to nature. So when we hear running water, we feel awe. When we smell the fragrances of cedar trees and flowers, we feel awe. Big stars and skies. And I think the thinking is like, that kind of helps us locate in a place that is safe and has a lot of resources for us to survive. Right. Is that sense of beauty and awe about nature and talking about awe so much people are like, what do I do? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, listen to a piece of music that brings you tears and get outdoors and look at a flower or look at a tree or look at the sunset wherever you are and find awe and make it a practice. And nature's so good for us. So good for us.

[A]

I love that you have even a graphic representation of that in the book where you had people draw a picture of themselves in nature versus Nature, not in nature. And they were tiny in the. In what they drew in nature, which is great.

[B]

I love that study. Yeah. You know, and then ordinarily like you take. You were in the center and you're this big thing and. And then in our. The other version of that is in the AWOK study where if you just build in a little mystery to your daily walk, you start to feel more awe. And we ask people to take photos of themselves and the self starts to drift off to the side of the

[A]

photo

[B]

because you're not aware of yourself. You're like, what's behind me? That's cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, this is such a self focused era. The sociologists have documented this. Instagram take pictures of the self and it's good to get away from it.

[A]

I was so heartened reading your book because I would think for someone who studied happiness for so long, that you started out very chill and happy and literally in the intro you're like pretty anxious. You were, you know, a pretty anxious and somewhat neurotic person, which relatable. So it's really heartening to see your research. And again, Dr. Keltner has a staggering body of research, authored or co authored nearly 300 publications, written several books, including on the topics of living a meaningful life and what that means psychologically and on power struggles. And then his book, the new science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life is a really great read. Or listen if you're an audiobook person. It's a great science and really beautifully written. And the book is so, so good. It's not even a topic that I would have thought could be studied. And I don't think it was very studied. You know, initially it's just a beautiful, like how much wonder can really change our lives. Any final tips on getting in that one minute moment a day?

[B]

Yeah, you know, thanks for bringing that up because, you know, I wrote this book after my brother passed away, who was my companion in awe. And I was in deep grief and it never leaves you and, and awe really helped me. And I was a really anxious OCD panic in my 30s, like lots of panic attacks, even though I look like a stone surfer, but I don't surf and I don't smoke marijuana. So, you know, so awe really at most stages of my life really helped me in profound ways. And over the years I realized like I've built up an awe practice. And so what I tell people is for a few minutes a day, take those wonders of life and give yourself a little space. You could be driving, you could be quietly sitting somewhere. Put away your phone, just calm and take a deep breath and listen to a piece of music that really means a lot to you. Oh, I gotta listen to that song by the Beatles or whatever it is. For me it's Brian Eno. And take a moment or two and find some places nearby you where you can go and experience nature. I'm lucky. In Berkeley it can be a stream, redwood tree. We had a teacher in the Bronx who took her kids to the one patch of lawn in her area, the Bronx, and they sat and took it in. So find a little bit of nature. Maybe it's the sunset I love. You know, I'm really obsessed with moral beauty now. And just think of someone who inspires you and just dwell on what they look like, what their eyes are like, how do they speak to you, Right? Who's somebody for you, Ali, that inspires you?

[A]

Oh my gosh. I know that it's trite, but I will say my husband is one of the most creative and big hearted and justice oriented little weirdos. He's a weird guy and he's very himself and he writes poetry that he performs. And I'm just like, how did that come out of him? How is that just there?

[B]

And that's exactly the inquiry which is like, just think of people in your present moment, like a colleague or my mom or oh my God, I had this autistic student who did so much. Just focus on that. That's really good for you. I love the visual world and millions of people go to museums, pick a painting and just look at it slowly. The book has guidance. The Greater Good Science center has guidance. It's easy to find and find five minutes a week to do that kind of thing.

[A]

Thank you so much for talking to me. You have been someone I have been so nervous and so excited to chat with for so, so long. And your book is astounding. It's so wonderful. Again, it's such a privilege and an honor to talk to you. You're doing some of the coolest work out there. Big fan.

[B]

Thank you. Means a lot. I really appreciate you saying that so seriously.

[A]

So thank you so, so much to Dr. Dacher Keltner for taking the time to chat. I'm never going to forget it. It was worth the wait. And we're going to link his book on Awe in the show notes as well as his website and we'll have more links up at our website. We are at Ologies on Instagram and Bluesky. I'm A.L.I.E. ward with 1L on both. We have kid friendly episodes called Cosmologies available wherever you get podcasts. Thank you Erin Talbert for adminning the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer does the website. The timeless Noel Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale takes care of vast responsibilities as managing director and breathtaking editors who snip out my breaths. Our Jake Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland. Additional editing by the incomparable Jarrett Sleeper, who is also my husband. He is a world wonder. Cool nude Nick Thorburn made the theme music and if you stick around till the end, you know I tell you a secret. And this week there's two One is that the ending Stinger this week is like a little musical recap from the episode with accompanying tunes composed by our own Jake chaffee, who is JEC Music on YouTube. If you look him up. Jake makes these really delicate and haunting and sweet compositions and I know for a while he was live streaming it, but you can find him@jec music.com so that's jec music.com he did not ask me to shout him out and I have a feeling he's going to be blushing. But his music is beautiful. Also. Second secret was that I was working on this episode today. I was eating a spring roll at a nearby restaurant, but I really only wanted half the order because I also got a huge salad and spring rolls don't keep very well and I was like I wish I could have gotten a half order. And I sat there with my laptop at a noodle restaurant and a Guy walked past the window when we made eye contact, and it was an old friend, my friend Dave. And we waved and I waved him in, even though, honestly, I had a zit and bleary eyes from yet another wildfire here in la, but whatever. And he came in and he sat down and I was like, you want some of these spring rolls? And he's like, hell, yeah. We split an order of spring rolls. We caught up for like a good 15 minutes before he had to jam for work. I honestly would have kept my head down because I was a mess and I was working, but I remembered this conversation with Dacher and how we just don't sit and talk and catch up as much anymore. And it was really lovely. So there's that. And then on the walk home, I saw a cute little lizard and I was like, hey, man, all those lizards, where are they sleeping right now? There's like a sleep lizards. It's nighttime. There's just a think of all the lizards sleeping right now. That's. That's awe I'm feeling. Okay, bye. Bye.

[B]

For a few minutes a day, take those wonders of life and give yourself a little space. Could be quietly sitting somewhere. Put away your phone, just calm and take a deep breath and listen to a piece of music that really means a lot to you. Find some places nearby you where you can go and experience nature. Maybe it's the sunset. Think of someone who inspires you, you know, and just like, dwell on what they look like, what their eyes are like, how do they speak to you? Who's somebody for you?

[A]

Wasn't that lovely music? Again, thanks to Jake for that. And thanks to VRBO for sponsoring today's special bonus episode. It was really quite a thrill to make. Awe is just one of those things that reminds us, like, oh, being alive is pretty neat. And it reminds us how powerful sharing an experience can be with strangers at a concert or watching the sunset, or with the people that you love the most. And when you're traveling with people you care about, those moments tend to stick even more. And with all the things we're told to prioritize these days, prioritizing awe seems like pretty solid choice and getting out of your four walls if you can. And VRBO helps make those trips easier by giving you a reliable place to stay together. Plus support if anything doesn't go as planned. With VRBO care and 247 customer service, the people on your trip are full of surprises, but not your vrbo. So book your next trip on the VRBO applied.