← Ologies with Alie Ward
Ologies with Alie Ward
BONUS EPISODE Creating Music with Jarrett Sleeper and David Bashwiner
00:55:11
The promised follow up bonus episode to our biomusicology episode with theoretical, neuro- and biomusicologist Dr David Bashwiner. This one is guest hosted by Podmother Jarrett Sleeper and we steer the discussion more toward the process of creating music, where creativity comes from, the relationship between theory, technique, and creativity, how to unleash or access one’s own creativity, synthesizers, whether new sounds are possible, emulation vs simulation, music as it exists in nature, whether or not animals use instruments, and perhaps a bit about the effects of drugs on mixing? Visit Dr. Bashwiner’s website and follow him on Google Scholar A donation went to Gaza Hand of Salvation Initiative You can find Jarrett on Instagram and Bandcamp More episode sources and links Other episodes you may enjoy: Genocidology (CRIMES OF ATROCITY), Mnemonology (MEMORY), Eudemonology (HAPPINESS), Molecular Neurobiology (BRAIN CHEMICALS), Salugenology (WHY HUMANS REQUIRE HOBBIES), Ornithology (B...
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- [00:00]
Alie Ward
Guts are incredible. We've talked about them a lot on the show. It's working for you 247 doing a lot behind the scenes. When it's doing its job, it's quiet, which is great because a boring gut leaves more room for an interesting life. And they have these new Culturel complete three in one biotics. They're mini chews you just easily pop in your mouth every day, no water needed. They help with occasional bloating and gas and let's just say, digestive discomfort. So culturel probiotics the science of a Boring gut at website for details Today's show sponsored by Strawberry Me. Are you where you want to be in your career? Are really any of us super successful? People have mentors, they have coaches, they have people guiding them every step of the way. That's where Strawberry Me career coaching comes in. It gives you the clarity strategy, also accountability needed to turn your ideas and your goals into reality. Whether you're landing a new job, maybe you're trying to advance in the job you've got, or you just want to leave your field and go into one that you love more. Career coaching gives you expert guidance. You'll identify obstacles holding you back. You can develop a step by step plan. It's really hard to know when the right time to act on things are, when you need more planning, when to just go for it. And professional coaching helps you take control of your career trajectory. I have had career coaching. Wouldn't have started ologies without it. And also I've used Strawberry Me to help me figure out how to make sure that I'm using my voice the most authentic way that I can. My coach was very empathetic but also was straight talking to help me identify where I can take action. Go to Strawberry Me ologies and get 50% off your first coaching session. So that's Strawberry Me Ologies. It's like therapy for your career. Okay, so this one time I booked a vacation rental for my husband's entire family and it wasn't until after the trip was over that they told me a few of the windows didn't open and one of the beds collapsed. I was on the wrong app. Vrbo has a loved by guest search filter for their top rated vacation rentals with near perfect ratings for cleanliness and location and all the good stuff. So no surprises. What you see is exactly what you get. Search click dot book today on the VRBO app. If you know you verbo terms apply. See verbo.com trust for details.
- [02:20]
Jarrett Sleeper
Oh hey, it's your neighbor who's doing throwing knives in the backyard in the middle of the day again? What's his deal anyway? I think his wife has a podcast or something. Jarrett Sleeper here. That's right. It's your podmother. And I'm here with a bonus episode. It's like a little DVD extra, a special feature, a companion piece to the bio musicology episode that went up earlier this weekend. Yeah, did we say it would go up Friday and now it's Saturday night? Sure, but who's really keeping track of stuff like that? Allie invited me to sit in and ask some more questions of the incredible guest, Dr. David Bashwinner. She said it's because I make music sometimes and she thought it might be interesting to have someone who sometimes does that, ask some questions. And I thought, well, I'm so, so honored that you asked me to do that. Sure, I'd love to also. You know what's so crazy? After the interview, Dr. Bashford and I realized I went to a whole bunch of grade school with his little brother. Isn't that so weird? Isn't the world so small and weird, spooky stuff. And that's just one of the sorts of things we talk about, spooky stuff on this very bonus episode, which means it's more raw than usual and doesn't have any asides or patron questions or anything like that. But hopefully you will enjoy it anyway and come along with us as we talk about a whole bunch more biomusicology stuff, like the weird experience of creation, the weird spooky experience of creation, where creativity may come from, whether or not animals use instruments, whether or not the 12 note scale exists in nature amongst the animals, synthesizers, why we instinctively know the difference between purring and growling. And more with biomusicologist Dr. David Bashwinner. I'm very excited. I'm very honored to be allowed to do this. This is fun. I have a lot of cousins.
- [04:27]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Me too. I can't believe I got to meet both of you in a single day.
- [04:30]
Jarrett Sleeper
Well, well, this is so funny because this happened a little bit when I do get to tag along on Ali's interviews. I always feel like I get to be like, in the. In the. In the ask not smart questions thing, I get to ask the really dumb ones, you know, I really go into the conspiracy realm with nuclear physicists and stuff. And I ask, like, did the aliens teach us this? Tell me the truth, you know, whatever.
- [04:54]
Dr. David Bashwiner
But.
- [04:54]
Jarrett Sleeper
So I'm really excited about this. Okay. I'm going to try to keep it to that realm of creation, of music. Because I find that process very mysterious and mystical. Okay, one here, I'll start with this one. My experience of creation, at least when I think it is good, is that it comes from somewhere else rather than from myself. That there's a channeling feeling that happens. And sometimes when I'm trying to make it from myself, for some it's very frustrating. It like doesn't happen, it doesn't come. So I'm curious if there is any kind of. I loved what you said at the end of the interview about this unifying feeling, this like, meta being that is created by music. So is there anything in your field of study that speaks to this experience of inspiration or it coming from elsewhere? The way music sometimes flows and sometimes won't come at all?
- [05:46]
Dr. David Bashwiner
I mean. Yes.
- [05:47]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yeah.
- [05:47]
Dr. David Bashwiner
One of the first papers I did in neuroscience was like, it ended up being about the default mode network, which you guys have talked about sometimes because like, that somehow associated with creativity. And so like the way it's defined as like in the 90s. It's Reichel. I can't remember Reichel's first name, but he has the first paper, I think, on the default mode network. And maybe that was 2001. But leading up to that, you know, he and other researchers would be like, it's weird. We give someone a task and we, you know, we see certain things light up and then we tell them to just look at the cross at the center of the screen when there's no task. And it's not like every. The brain is just going to sleep or doing less stuff. It's like doing something totally different. So there's certain regions that are more active when you're not doing anything than when you're doing the thing. For some reason, like, default mode network gets like. I don't know, it just like has gotten like a little warped by what it means in like, popular sense. So once researchers like my colleague Rex Young has done a lot of work on this. And when you get people in the scanner who are being creative, who are doing divergent thinking, for instance, like, tell me all the things you could do with a cactus when you're thinking of those things or people who do that better than others, there seems to be a little bit more activity in the default mode network. And the default mode network is connected with like your memory. But it's complex because sometimes it's about like generating completely new thoughts that are not memory based. But sometimes it might be. Maybe you can't do that without your memory. In some way.
- [07:23]
Jarrett Sleeper
So yeah, that's actually kind of does is a question I had about instruments and just sounds and how they relate to the development of music and new sounds that like what you were just saying, can you make something new that's not iterating off memory? Maybe probably not, but like. Okay, so something I've been fascinated about thinking about modern music is in some ways it feels like this cool thing happened for a long time. Like with every development of technologies, like electricity, we get this electric guitar sound. The synthesizer is invented. Sampling is a thing that becomes possible with like computers and how those all be come repurposed into a new instrument. And that sometimes now it feels like we figured all the sounds out we can make. And now there's iterations and remixing happening with like. I'm going to take this sound of like 60s doo wop and then I'm going to mix in, you know, this weird sampling thing from scratch or something like that. So I'm wondering, do you think, can we make new sounds? Like, are there going to be new instruments? Or like, how does that impact the creation of music? Are new things under the sun possible? Or are we just reiterating things that have existed since we were banging on rocks?
- [08:35]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Oh, okay. I think synthesis, like, synthesis is totally new and everything that comes from it really.
- [08:44]
Jarrett Sleeper
What do you mean? Like, in what sense? Because synthesis, when we say synthesis on synthesizer, isn't it literally like creating a vibration, a hertz, a sequence from scratch, and that's basically mimicking what we're doing with instruments.
- [08:58]
Dr. David Bashwiner
It ends up being really useful to have a keyboard that has patches already there that can mimic instruments, because we like to hear those things. So it's like if you're making a piece with synths, you need to have like your pads all in one place and your monosynths in one place, and your bass sounds in one place and your drum sounds in one place. Like you need to label them that way because that's how our minds create things. But that's very practical. If you just think about like the. The fact that a synth, like you could start with a sine tone and then if you just add one more sine tone and do the binaural beats thing I was talking about before, you can just move the number of hertz, it's at a tiny bit and you can just create a rhythm out of it if you add in one other thing. And that kind of doesn't really exist, just like in nature. It's certainly not imitating anything. And if you add just one more thing to that. Let's say you just add a third oscillator. That's maybe. Maybe that third oscillator is doing a different rhythm. You now all of a sudden have something that is infinitely complex, even though it might still be really simple. But it's just three things. Like, you can't predict what's going to happen. And it doesn't have anything to do with anything that you've heard before.
- [10:14]
Jarrett Sleeper
Well, that's actually so okay. One thing I always think about is our tendency to separate things into parts. Like, one thing I think about, like, in working out, you're like, I'm doing cardio, or I'm doing stretching, or I'm doing strength. But when a tiger runs and climbs a tree, it's not thinking about the different things. And like, something you just said is like, if I make a sine wave, I'm creating a tone. But then if I adjust something in there. Now it's a rhythm. It's a rhythm and a tone. And that in nature, there's really no difference between rhythm section and bass. Or, you know, it's just animals make it.
- [10:46]
Dr. David Bashwiner
But there isn't our body. If you think about, like. Like, if you go back to the. The reason I like to pay attention to, like, the various rhythms that are available in the body is because the fact that delta aligns so perfectly with the tempos that we use suggests, like. Oh, you know, if you take a piece and you speed it up and you do it faster than delta, faster than four times a second, it's not like you can't hear it anymore. It's just like, it does no longer functions as a beat. It's just like, if you're doing this right, it's. You start hearing this as the beat. Yeah, that's like engines.
- [11:25]
Jarrett Sleeper
Like, you know, you can hear sometimes you're like a musicality and like engines of cars. Like, it'll be like sputtering and then it starts.
- [11:32]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah, exactly.
- [11:33]
Jarrett Sleeper
Like some synthesizers mimic that. They're one of my favorite little catnip to my ears. Sounds using the beats. I interrupt you on the beat.
- [11:38]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Synthesizes, I think are like the. The thing is, like, anything can be synthesis, just like with a 3D printer in that sense. It's like it's fundamentally new. Synthesizers and then synthesize. All the things that you mentioned, I think, like, come off of the fact that synthesizers can do what they do. Even if it's sampling, they're still kind. I don't know. They don't Maybe not necessarily doing it with synthesizers, but at least, I don't know, we could say that those things are related.
- [12:05]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yeah.
- [12:05]
Dr. David Bashwiner
But I personally have a big issue, like, in. In my role in academia. I don't know. When I went to college, like, they was like, they told us that anything that we'd heard before was stupid.
- [12:18]
Jarrett Sleeper
The music, we already liked this.
- [12:20]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah.
- [12:20]
Jarrett Sleeper
Okay.
- [12:20]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah. And then they're like, you have to. You should write the new music. And then. Right. This is more like an academic thing. But in academia, it was just like, I just didn't learn anything in college that was actually useful. I just learned how to. I studied, you know, I wrote, like, new music for 10 years, and at the end, I was. I knew enough about it to be like, oh, yeah, they were wrong. They were lying to me. But then I'd wasted 10 years and also not learn anything about composition. So, like, a goal in my life is to try to make it so that kids can learn stuff that I think is actually valuable in college about music. And I feel like the focus on the new, it's somehow inseparable from what I see as a problem. Like, okay, so Patricia Bowden, I think it's. I think her name is Patricia. But someone Bowdoin from has. Has a cognitive scientist that has this distinction between P creativity and H creativity. P is personal and H is historical. So if you have a kid that's doing a drawing, and then they say, look, it's a car, and then you say, that has already been done.
- [13:34]
Jarrett Sleeper
Okay.
- [13:35]
Dr. David Bashwiner
It's not very good. Try again. Like, that's a horrible thing to say to a kid.
- [13:39]
Jarrett Sleeper
Right?
- [13:39]
Dr. David Bashwiner
You're like. And it doesn't make any sense because you're applying each creativity idea to them. What you really need to do for a kid, for. It's obvious for a kid, you need to be like, whoa, that is so much better than anything you've ever done before. Or you don't even have to say that. You just, like, anytime they're making something, you're like, that's great. So if you think about yourself as an adult now and you're picking up the guitar for the first time. So, Ali, you're going to do this, or maybe ukulele, and you write your first song. Like, objectively, your first song actually probably is going to be pretty interesting. But, like, you're not even allowed to think about that. You just need to go and write your first song, and then that is going to be momentous. Right. It's really important that we all, like, all of us are thinking in the p creativity sense. Like, that is the first song that you wrote. So like, you should not compare it to someone else's song. So in college, yeah, there's this thing of applying. Always the h creativity thing. You know, it's like. I think it's like logically wrong to say you should not learn to compose like anyone who's ever composed before, like Beethoven or Bach or Miles Davis or someone like that, because it's already been done. That is confusing. Like the educational process, which really like needs you to focus on p creativity, confuses that with h creativity. And there's this idea like you can train people to make h creative things, but those aren't going to be any good. That's very validating because.
- [15:17]
Jarrett Sleeper
Okay, I have this theory. I try to. I say, I just think true art cannot be bad. Accessing what that truth is may be more or less difficult for different people. But I was going to actually ask you about this because something I see an insecurity from my end is lack of technical ability goes, this isn't good enough. This isn't new enough. This is so derivative. Even if it feels earnest to me. This sucks. And on the other side, I have some very close friends who are genius technicians. They are. They have so much knowledge and. And they have difficulty. And I always say to them, if I had your ability, I'd be so annoying. I'm already putting my online all the time.
- [15:58]
Alie Ward
Why?
- [15:58]
Dr. David Bashwiner
What.
- [15:59]
Jarrett Sleeper
Why can't you get to your voice? And so what advice do you have or what thoughts do you have or what has worked to. I'm going to start on the people who already know shit side first because I think that's a. A tougher problem, it seems like is breaking yourself out of the age creative problem. Breaking yourself out of. This is how things are supposed to sound. This is the context I'm already in, like getting rid of that and accessing that weird channel personal creativity. How do you do that?
- [16:27]
Alie Ward
Also, are drugs involved?
- [16:29]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yes. And if drugs are involved, like they
- [16:32]
Alie Ward
used to have budgets in the 70s for cocaine.
- [16:38]
Jarrett Sleeper
No, that's the whole. What they say, the. The fader or something. The fader operator. They had a budget in line.
- [16:44]
Alie Ward
I think it was the guy that does the fake. But really that was just their coke budget.
- [16:50]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yeah, they would hide it also. Also drugs impact, apparently. Apocryphally. Maybe they say the mixes in the 80s was a Coke mix. That's why it's so like the higher frequencies are always pushed.
- [17:00]
Dr. David Bashwiner
I think about. Okay, pre the album Presence by Zeppelin. That's like, that album is so, like. I think they named it that because it's so high frequency and it's weird to listen to. And Jimmy. That's when Jimmy Page was like, really, really, really going through, like, very serious, like, opiate, you know, like heroin addiction. And Robert Plant, I think, had just injured himself too, so he wasn't involved, like. But I just guessing that whatever drug was dominant for Jimmy Page at the time, he would be in the studio and then the mixing engineer would be doing stuff, and Jimmy Page would be like, no, no, no. We need more presence, more super high frequency.
- [17:38]
Jarrett Sleeper
Wow.
- [17:39]
Dr. David Bashwiner
And then the guy would be like, what are you talking about? You know, like, this is way too trebly already. And Jimmy Page would be like, turn up the Presence. I want Bomb. You know, Like, Yeah, I think that's how it got that name and possible that could happen from hearing damage. But I'm. I think. I think the way drugs work, like, drugs are going to modulate all different aspects of both what you. How you hear and also what you like about how you hear. So, yeah, the story of. I just think it would be super fascinating to go through, let's say, 20th century, different artists, and if you can track, like, which drugs they're on at different phases of their career. Because I think it's like. So music making is a feedback loop, right? Like, by definition, almost like when I talk, my brain tunes out my voice. If I sing, my brain is allowing the sound of my voice to interact with the sound I'm making so that I can tune the sound I'm making to the sound of my own voice, which comes a little bit later. If we talk, we have to tune that out. But if we sing, you're, like, holding a note long enough that you can tune it to itself. And then, you know, when you play with others, you're always, like, tuning what you're doing to what they're doing. So it's always a feedback loop of motor behavior out, then taking in the sensory consequences of that and then tuning your ongoing motor behavior relative to those things. So drugs of all different sorts are gonna, in some sense, either change your hearing or change your motor behavior or change something about, like, the. How efficient, right. The timing is of that sensory feedback feeding into your motor apparatus. And it's going to also presumably change what you like. So even if it didn't change the sensory consequences and the motor behavior, it would change the. Your dopamine and endogenous opioid response to whatever you're Hearing. So you're going to like different things. You're going to like different ways of responding to other musicians. Yeah. Okay.
- [19:50]
Jarrett Sleeper
Well, that ties in back to the first question about how to access your creativity. I think maybe part of that even is, like, how do you gain confidence in what you like, you know?
- [19:58]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, one thing is, when I start off the year in music theory, for my students, I say, like, music theory can be dangerous, like, especially for the people who are more creative. It has the ability, if you learn too much music theory ahead of the rate at which you're exploring music and figuring stuff out, then it has the potential to shut down your exploration. So it's better, like, for people who, like, write songs and compose, like, I want everyone to be like that. But for someone who just wants to play the clarinet, like, it isn't as dangerous for them. They might not ever actually get to the point where they're like, they're going to figure that stuff out on their own. So it is very good for them to take music theory, but for people who are super creative, it's better for them to be ahead of whatever we learn in music theory class in their creative exploration. So, like, I like to think of it as, like, you're walking around your house at night in the dark or just walking around anywhere with your eyes closed. You have to use all your other senses. You have to, like, feel things and listen in a different way to feel what you're doing. And, like, creativity happens when you're, like, at that place where you don't know what you're doing.
- [21:19]
Jarrett Sleeper
Right.
- [21:19]
Dr. David Bashwiner
And I think that theory is really incredible, like, as scaffolding to help you understand the stuff that you're already sort of doing to then open up, like, the next doors in all these ways. So it's like whatever your learning level is or knowledge level in, say, music theory, to be creative, you always have to be on the edge, like, ahead of it. Like, being like, what is out here? But, you know, I love music theory, and it's not better to not learn theory because if you're just trying to be creative and not learn theory, you really usually get bored of it. Like, you do some stuff for a while and then you just lose interest.
- [22:07]
Jarrett Sleeper
I also just find I get frustrated with lack of theory. Like, I'll have some. But just. Or lack of technical knowledge. And this is where some of the fun stuff happens, because I'll have a sound in my head and I'm trying to make it and I can't figure out where it is. And then if I go to the YouTube or the music theory books that I have, eventually you kind of, oh, okay. And things start to unlock. And that's a very exciting experience to have new tools to do new things that, like, help you connect from sounds you're hearing or feeling and making them out in the world. Yes.
- [22:39]
Alie Ward
Is that like. Is that like writing versus editing? You know how. I mean, not. Again, not to. Not to focus on substances. But I think Hemingway said, like, write drunk edits over. But, like, my editing brain is really different from my writing brain. And if I'm trying to write with my editing brain, it fucking sucks. But if I let myself be weird and bad writing, then I can edit later. Is that kind of like, I wonder with your friends who are really good engineers and stuff, if they're editing as they're writing? Are those different parts of the brain?
- [23:11]
Dr. David Bashwiner
So give a slightly roundabout answer, but that's exactly the right question. Okay, Brilliant question. Okay, so this is another thing about how I teach theory. So there are these exercises called Species Counterpoint. And I tell the students that they are like crossword paper puzzle exercises. So I give them a melody that's just in whole notes like a common one is, And they have to write another melody that goes with it, a counterpoint to it. So if that's. They can start on this one or they can start on this note. Those are two options. If they were started on this note, then they can go to home or they can go to. Yeah. Anyway, there's some other options, but they have to follow, like, these very limiting set of rules to be able to solve a problem. And that, I think, is like, it's using your musical logic, but you're in a sense, just solving a crossword puzzle. And then when you play it, it ends up sounding. You're like, oh, sounds beautiful. But you're using just logic to do it. And then that's like the first species and second species, you introduce one more thing that they're allowed to do. Third species, fourth species, et cetera. I like teaching creativity in that way because calling it crossword puzzle logic means all they have to do is solve the problem. They're not allowed to say, oh, but I just like this one thing. So that forces them to use this musical logic to solve problems. And along the way, they are learning their ability to use. To, like, the. The ability to bring music into the mind and manipulate the relationships of things, like you do with grammar, like you do when you're solving a crossword puzzle. You Know, like there's a clue. And then you have to think of all the possible ways. Oh, you just started doing crossword puzzles. Yeah, the. You have to think of all the possible meanings that a word has. You also have to think of all the different ways that letters work. Like, a T can come after an S, but it can't come after a D, that kind of thing. So if you're talking about, like on an instrument, your fingers can do certain things. And if you're writing just for yourself, let's say playing guitar, then if you're writing for yourself to play it, then you can only do the things that your fingers can do. If you are like imagining a piece that you don't have to play yourself, in some sense, you could imagine stuff that your fingers can't do. But everything you study with your fingers is going to help you imagining the thing that you want to do. This species counterpoint idea is almost like developing the fingers of the mind. And the final part of this that I think is really. I think it's so beautiful. There's an article by Dietrich and Heider from 2015, maybe on creativity. And they make this distinction between emulation and simulation. So the example they give is if you wanted to make a piece of music that sounded like the ocean waves, that would have to be simulation, because our minds can't do ocean waves. But if you wanted to make a piece of music that is something like what your fingers can do on a piano, that's emulation, because your motor system can do those things. So with creativity, when you're imagining something, like sometimes it's the case you might imagine flying or imagine something that you can just envision, almost like a third person sort of thing, and that simulation. And we do that. But it's a different kind of creativity where when you're working with the simulation system, the things that your motor system can do, including like your creative motor system. And so that I like to think of is like that scaffolding, like building structures with this syntax of the motor apparatus. And then you get to jazz musicians who, to improvise, you have to practice improvising. So what they're doing all day is they're practicing scales and arpeggios and practicing moving from one to the other. And they're practicing the use of the. They're building these things into their motor apparatus so that in the moment of improvisation, they have so much freedom in this emulation sense, whereas simulation doesn't help you at all in an improvisation scenario. So when we're Getting at like how do you teach creativity? And going back to me talking about my students and why I do the species counterpoint thing and also tying into the H creativity and P creativity. It's like, even though other people have done species counterpart before, I really think it's important to get the students to practice this motor system development of the mind and get them to be able to emulate more and more complex musical textures. That gives them this freedom to generate creatively complex musical ideas and then to reward that in the P creativity sense. And that should give them freedom to make their own rules and to think things that haven't been thought before in the age creativity sense. But through doing stuff that is peak
- [28:54]
Jarrett Sleeper
creativity, it feels like it made me think of cooking that like you can make a burger a million times a million different ways. And as you gain technique and experience with how salt affects what you're doing, how heat, high heat, low heat, how the, what oil you put in the pan and at what time, all these kinds of things, these will all affect how good or bad the burger is. And it's still maybe the same burger you had when you were a kid, but that doesn't make it any less delicious or meaningful and also will always be unique to the moment in which you made the burger and the time of year you got the ingredients and from where, you know what I mean? Like, and there's nothing lesser or even it feels, it's not even more historical. It remains personal despite being a recognizable thing and still very satisfying and very meaningful. Hey, cutting in real quick here because we need to have an ad break and also because Ali said I could pick the charity this week. And that charity is going to be the Gaza Hand of Salvation Initiative. It's one that you may already know about if you've been following Ali and the podcast for a while. It's very direct mutual aid to some people who are frankly being brutalized in Gaza. Every time I see them post about the very modest money they've received and how they using it to buy basic ingredients, to prepare food, to just feed people in their community, or to replace a solar panel that's been destroyed, it makes me cry. What they're surviving is so goddamn evil I can't describe it. People are people everywhere in the world and it's so unbelievably unfair that just because of where we're born, some of us can just order DoorDash and watch TV and some of us are hoping we aren't starved or bombed just for existing in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's making me emotional, as it always does. On top of it, they keep getting booted off Instagram and stuff like that. Again, for the terrible crime of existing as Palestinians and talking about it. Can't have that. Can't have the world know what's still going on over there anyway. In a world where it really seems like you can't do fucking anything to stop your tax dollars from funding a genocide, at least you can try to help some people there get some fucking dinner. Details about finding them on Chuff can be found in the show notes. And thank you Mercedes, who has been the lead on keeping us in contact with them and her continued advocacy for these people who are just like you and me. As always. If you're interested in learning more about war crimes, humanitarian law and genocide, check out our genocidology episode with Dr. Dirk Moses.
- [31:27]
Alie Ward
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- [36:22]
Jarrett Sleeper
Okay, back to the show. When you were talking about the emulation simulation. So you said, if it sounds like the ocean, am I doing emulation or simulation? If I sit down and I go, I want it to sound like when I was sad at the ocean.
- [36:36]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Well, that. Okay, that's still simulation. Okay, I'm gonna fill in one little blank in here, which is like, I was trying to figure out at the time, like, why is it that composers can. When you're in a dream, your mind can generate music and. Or, like, just a semi dreamlike state. A lot of composers say that songwriters. Happens to me, it's like, I just know after all these years that if my mind generates something in a dream or a dream, like, state, then, like, I just need to write it down or record it, capture it, because that stuff is gold. That is the best stuff. And if you allow yourself to think, like, in the moment, like, is this any good? Like, it's gonna seem not good. You're gonna be like, this is stupid, but it always is just brilliant. But it's so wacky to try and figure out. How is it. If you try to figure out, like, how can my brain generate something without me? Like, it's both, like, a silly question, but it's also like, yeah, but how can it. Right? Like, why can my brain generate a melody better than I can? Because I Am my brain. There's something about this hands off generative state. And that's this question that you were asking earlier. So the simulation idea is. Oh, simulation emulation. I think what I came to from working through all these ideas is that if you go to sleep and wake up with some music in your head, like anything that's simulative, it can't do. Because somehow that dreaming brain that generates content is doing it through the motor system. So it's doing it. It's the emulative system that the brain's going to use to generate content. And it's probably something about like acetylcholine levels and maybe reduce serotonin and norepinephrine, something like that. That allows the motor apparatus to maybe have. Do more, less common things, you know, like make more connections that are less usual that the dream state chemistry allows.
- [38:44]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yeah. It seems like there's an aspect of cultivating a trust in your body like that. My body has instincts and abilities. I don't make myself breathe or I don't make my heartbeats. And likewise, you know, you touch the stove, the nervous system, my body, before it hits my brain is doing something telling me, don't touch that before I can. And it feels. I wonder if that's part of just the creative problem overall is like a lot of aspects of our society today, a lot of experiences of whatever. I think I would say trauma, even if it's like, you know, just emotional difficulties or, you know, the way we're educated, kind of discourages you from trusting your body. When I'm hungry, when I'm tired, if I. What my feelings actually are and disconnecting from those. So that becomes very difficult, perhaps especially if you've layered on top of it a whole bunch of stuff about the proper and right way to do things, which obviously comes with a wrong way.
- [39:34]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah.
- [39:34]
Jarrett Sleeper
Then how do you go back to going like, well, I'm just going to go back to trusting my body like when I was a kid just banging on drums, you know?
- [39:40]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah. I mean, that's beautiful. Like that, that question, dude. Just in itself.
- [39:45]
Jarrett Sleeper
Well, okay, I want to dovetail off that a little about nature and music theory stuff. Does nature, music theory, as we learn it, like 12 notes? Do animals do 12 notes? Does it exist there?
- [39:57]
Dr. David Bashwiner
No, but the ratios do. So hold this for a second.
- [40:05]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yes.
- [40:06]
Alie Ward
Oh, yeah, the mono. We saw your YouTube.
- [40:08]
Jarrett Sleeper
We were watching that.
- [40:09]
Alie Ward
Oh, yeah.
- [40:09]
Dr. David Bashwiner
It's good, right? My dog, Banana, you catch the end? She's good. Alrighty. So this is like an instrument that like, supposedly Pythagoras invented. And I've been doing tons of reading about, like, what we actually know about Pythagoras, but supposedly. Oh, yeah, there's a story where he's walking through the woods, he hears the consonances, he hears like, He hears those sounds and he's like, what is that? And he goes and he. He follows them and he ends up at a blacksmith's workshop. And it's people, like, hammering things. And it turns out there's a tone for each hammer. So it's like this one is coming from one of the hammers. There's four different hammers. There's like a big guy with a big hammer and a little guy with a little hammer. He switches hands. He switches. And the little guy with the big hammer. Anyway, it goes with the hammer, not with the guy. So it's not how they're hitting it, it's the hammer itself. He weighs the hammers. This part is not scientifically accurate, but this is how the story goes. He weighs them. He figures out they are in the ratio of 6 to 8 to 9 to 12, the 2. So those numbers might not make that much sense right now, but the lowest one and the highest one are in the 6 to 12 ratio. And he's like, oh, that's an octave and it's a 6 to 12 ends up being 1 to 2 ratio. So he's like, maybe an octave is a 1 to 2 ratio. That's just, I guess, at this point. But he takes these two, and this is a six to nine, and this is a perfect fifth. Like you could sing Twinkle, Twinkle to it. So that makes a fifth, this guy, 8 and 12, also a perfect fifth. Twinkle, twinkle. Right? You could do it there too. And that those are both a 2 to 3 ratio. So he's like, Aha. Maybe a 2 to 3 ratio is a fifth. And you get the same thing with the fourth, too. So 6 to 8 ends up being 3 to 4 ratio, and that's a fourth and 9 to 12. So that's a story that was used. It was probably used for like, many hundreds of years in oral tradition from the time of Pythagoras, 500 BC, to when it was first written down in 200 AD. And then it's like at the beginning of every music theory treat us up to the end of the 1500s, it gets at this idea that we, when we hear two tones. I played these two tones for Ali before and I was like, this one is going to be how the frequency of this One. And that's weird because long before we could compute frequency, we heard that as consonants. So Pythagoras supposedly invented this instrument to demonstrate these principles. The instrument is just like one long string, so it's called a monochord. You put a movable bridge in the center. And right now it's. I have the, you know, I've measured. It's 36 inches wide. And so I have the bridge at 18 inches. I play one side of the string and then I play the other one. It's very quiet, but they're unison. That's not surprising because the two strings are the same exact length. Brilliant idea. Okay, now I'm going to move the bridge. I've divided the string into three parts so it's 36 inches. So it's 12 and 24. The 24 side is longer, so it's going to be a lower tone. And the side that is one third of that. Oh. Anyway, so this ratio of 3 to 2 gives a perfect fifth. That's the same numbers that we were talking about before. If you do it here, I have one side of the string is. Is the length of four things to three things. So four, four to three is a perfect fourth. And if I kept going, I get four to five. Sorry, those sounds. Major third. They kept going five to six as a minor third. So those intervals. Let's go back to the animal question. It's like this. Recently in the last 10 years, someone reported that those ratios really are found in some animal songs. It's not as common in animals as it is in human music, but it's not as common in human speech as it is in human music. And the most important thing is. This might take me a second, but. Any. I'm not doing like I'm. I'm using my mouth to filter, to mute certain frequencies to make other one's louder. But every time I sing the note, this one, then there are other sounds that go simultaneously. Those are just present in that sound. And the reason why this is B flat is, I don't know, maybe about 100. This is 110, so we'll call this 120. So if this is 120, then that means you would get vibrations at 122, 40, 360, 480, etc. And those give you these notes. 120, 240, 360, 480, etc. So it means every time you hear a pitch with a voice, not just a human voice, but any animal voice, you're getting a collection of tones that are always in those ratios. So when we hear two tones simultaneously, we judge them based on this measure, this ruler like thing, which is the harmonic series. Like, we can hear, like we have names for them, but we hear like, oh, that's an octave, that's a fifth. And a lot of people want to say that's because we learn it from vocalizations. But that almost certainly is not the case because even fish process sound in this way. All vertebrates, if you use vocal cords and you generate a periodicity through it in the tube of the throat, and then you shape it with, you know, your face, which is what all, at least all tetrapod vertebrates do, you're always getting a harmonic series with every tone you sing, right? So the way it turns out, what it turns out is like the auditory system in vertebrates has evolved. The most important thing is to pay attention to voices. Like other sounds matter, but voices matter the most, and other sounds don't have redundancy in this way, whereas voices are always structured in this way. So the auditory system has developed to take all tones that it's hearing, try to make sense of them according to this mathematical relationship, and then allow those specific sounds, which are voices, to drive the brain the most.
- [47:50]
Jarrett Sleeper
So then is music theory similar to other physics or math or whatever, where it's us identifying patterns and communicating them to ourselves. So we can not to say this is exactly what reality is, but this is the best way we have of understanding reality. In a way we can recognize this pattern and this happening of vibration and sound.
- [48:11]
Alie Ward
Know.
- [48:15]
Dr. David Bashwiner
In a sense. Okay, I. One more thing about Pythagoras is like the. The way what he's mostly known for is for saying there's a macrocosm out there, there's a microcosm inside, and the interface between the two is like music. We don't know exactly that he felt exactly that, but that's at least like the main idea. And so some of the examples I gave, like the moons of Jupiter, like Those follow the 1 to 2 to 2 to 4 ratio. Those are harmonic ratios. If you look at the. Out in the hall, I have a picture of the asteroids of the solar system as they coordinate with Jupiter and Saturn and they fall along. You know, there's musical ratios, those ratios I just showed you, like, they are stable in all kinds of dynamical systems. Anytime you get oscillators interacting with one another, there are stabilities that happen in those systems, and the stabilities happen relative to the simple ratios. So you see music like things in the external world. The nervous system is also a collection of oscillators. So nervous systems, even if we weren't making auditory sounds or music, would still have some sort of harmonic relationships within them. The way we walk has within it harmonic ratios, like 1 to 2 ratios of legs to trunk movements and stuff like that. And then the fact that voices come from a vibrator that generates harmonics and go through a tube that shapes it, that fact, and that's been going on through all vertebrates, like going back 500, maybe 300 million years at least. The auditory system takes advantage of that to be able to maximize its ability to detect voices and our voices feedback. This is a principle by Michael Ryan, who studies at Tungura Frog. But he's. This principle is called the sensory exploitation hypothesis, which is it isn't just that our ears have evolved to detect voices. Yeah. It's that our voices evolve to maximally drive the auditory apparatus of our listeners.
- [50:37]
Jarrett Sleeper
Cool.
- [50:38]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah. And like, one of the best things about this from the perspective of, like, what we do in music and why is we tend to think of, like, the composers or the instrumentalists as being the ones who are, like, in charge. But it's the listener and it's more complex. The listener's brain and the listener's emotional responses to things is way more complex and way more interesting and has a way more of effect, an effect on what kind of music gets made than just the mere makers.
- [51:12]
Jarrett Sleeper
That's really good. I kind of want to end on that. Yeah, I'm going to end on that. Are there any animals that use instruments?
- [51:23]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Well, spiders can use their web. Oh, mole crickets.
- [51:27]
Jarrett Sleeper
Mole crickets.
- [51:28]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Mole crickets build like a trumpet like, or like. Yeah, like a tuba, like, apparatus that they sing inside of. And it's definitely. It like comes out like a horn or pair as a horn. Maybe just. Yeah, maybe two horns. And they definitely tune it to give the right resonance for the sound that they're creating. So that may be your best example. Mole crickets.
- [51:52]
Jarrett Sleeper
That's awesome. On the same thing related to the pant hoot display. How come we all get a sense that purring means good, but growling means bad when they're like sort of similar things?
- [52:05]
Alie Ward
Yeah.
- [52:06]
Dr. David Bashwiner
That's beautiful. Okay. One thing is, like, if the purr didn't function as soothing and attractive, then, you know, it wouldn't be used that way. So, like, that feedback loop is necessary. But then you can look at. You can look at, like, I Mean, growling behaviors across animals are rough. They're loud. They have like unpredictable frequencies. Like they're. They're. It's like non stable. It's not like you're not singing a pure tone. It's not predictable. That's harsher upper resonances. That is something that is common for aggressive vocalizations across animals. And purring. Purring is like unique to cats.
- [52:50]
Jarrett Sleeper
But I even, even not specific cat. Like, like, like this dog, my brother's husky, has like a kind of a purring thing that is very close to the growling. Sometimes where you're like, is he growling? But it's something like he's likes that he's getting pet.
- [53:05]
Alie Ward
Yeah, you.
- [53:05]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [53:06]
Jarrett Sleeper
I don't know.
- [53:07]
Dr. David Bashwiner
That's cool. Yeah.
- [53:08]
Jarrett Sleeper
But I think what you said is really interesting and sounds right about like that there's something to when they're purring that is cyclical. It is consistent. It's repeating and calming in a way.
- [53:17]
Dr. David Bashwiner
It's also muted. It's not got the high frequencies. It's, you know, that like, it's almost like you could say the cat is conveying to you that its body is not stiff. It's not like everything that's an aggressive vocalization. Either that or fear is always very rapid in loud versus quiet. Like, it might just be all loud, but fear is like, oh, yeah, right.
- [53:42]
Jarrett Sleeper
The suddenness scared me. Yeah.
- [53:43]
Dr. David Bashwiner
The sudden. Yeah. Thank you. And like, so if I'm purring, you actually know like the status of my like almost like my trunk muscles, my breathing muscles.
- [53:54]
Jarrett Sleeper
Right, Your state of tension. Yeah.
- [53:56]
Dr. David Bashwiner
So the one thing I would say is like, you know, our tendency is to interpret that as like, oh, the cat's giving us signal. But it's much more interesting when you get into that the feedback thing of like the cat in a relaxed state will start making certain types of sounds. And if they're the wrong types of sounds, they won't function as soothing and like wanting to get, you know, attract someone. So then the things, the sounds that we make that convey the state that we're in or that that make the other person feel comfortable in the way that we want them to, regardless of meaning are the things that end up taking on meanings. Like, we can look at cats and say like, oh, that's what the per means. But it's actually the meaning is something we add on.
- [54:44]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yeah.
- [54:45]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Later.
- [54:45]
Jarrett Sleeper
I love that I hear this sound. And then there's a million calculations and interpretations going on in my brain that are like extrapolating. The diaphragm has to be relaxed here, to do this, the cat's probably gotta be relaxed to do this. And that means the cat's probably relaxed. And then it feels very much like the thing you said that I want to really end on. That feels really tied into how do we access our creativity and all that. And what you said at the end of Ally asking you questions, which is, we are sort of automatically becoming this meta being just by listening. And then I start instinctively interpreting and even feeling what the the sound creator is feeling. And I wonder if that isn't part of the key to accessing our own creativity is allowing ourselves to listen to whatever the sound that wants to be made is and just let that feedback loop keep happening.
- [55:36]
Dr. David Bashwiner
And with the tiny other thing, which is, I feel like music doesn't exist unless you're doing it with another person. So, I mean, I saw one concert once where one person performed one song where he was by himself, and it was just at the audience and it was brilliant. But every other time, like, solo performance can be a thing if you're really connecting with the audience. That one song was just this brilliant way of connecting, was like a. The song was a tool for back and forth communication between that performer and the audience. And as musicians like, you have to practice on your own. And if you're composing something, you might have to do some work by yourself. But I think the alchemy is not there. You're putting the ingredients in the crucible, but you're not adding that extra additional anima mundi or whatever. The thing that makes it magic or the thing that makes it music isn't there until there's actually someone else there that you're playing with and you're responding to that person.
- [56:36]
Jarrett Sleeper
Yeah, that's pretty perfect. Thank you. Thanks for making a meta being with us today.
- [56:42]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Yeah, thank you.
- [56:43]
Jarrett Sleeper
Thanks for letting me do this, Ali.
- [56:44]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Listen, I enjoyed being a meta being make music.
- [56:51]
Jarrett Sleeper
What a delight. What a damn delight. Thank you for letting me podmother you. Thank you, Allison Ward, for letting me fill your rather estimable shoes for a bit. This was very fun, as usual. So many people to thank. Ali Ward, of course, primarily for, you know, everything. Thanks for letting me take the car out for a spin, dad. Which is super weird, actually, in the ongoing metaphor, because if I'm pod mom, then why am I thanking your father for letting me take the car for a spin? Technically, the car is our car. We don't do that kind of patriarchy in this house. But I digress. Thank you to patrons who Support us on Patreon.com Ologies for as little as a dollar a month, always asking sensational questions. Thank you so much for being you. I believe. I really do believe this. I believe the extremely curiosity affirming community which thrives around Ologies is genuinely making the world a better and brighter place. I want to live in a world where curiosity is really known as the virtue it is and you all are making me believe it. Not only could be, but maybe even already is. Thank you. Aaron Talbert who admins admins who admins the Ologies podcast. Facebook group Avileen Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Dwyer does the website. Thank you also to scheduling producer Noelle Dilworth. She also teaches ballet to children and leaves lovely little gifts for you on holidays in the most unexpected times. Susan Hale is our managing director, also one of two totally distinct friends who told me to check out absolutely sensational action movie the Furious and Susan I did. I watched an afternoon show in Burbank last week and you were right. Best stuff since the Raid franchise. Astonishing material. Let's see. Thank you to the editing squad, Mercedes Maitland, Jake Chaffee and me. Also, Jake does deserve extra props again this week for his incredible musical underscoring additions he put in the bio musicology episode, the main one. He's so knowledgeable and talented, it's really crazy. Nick Thorburn made the theme music and then as is the custom, if you stay to the end, you deserve a little treat in the form of a secret. And the secret I'm going to tell you today. Well, I had one I was going to do about the relationship between IBS and the prostate, but I think that that is a little too gross and I'm not going to do that one. What I'm going to do instead is also health related in many ways. I've been experiencing this really strange thing where basically I'm like learning to distinguish or just ask myself the question, I guess about whether or not I'm depressed or just content. And I think for so much of my life I just had to live in extremes and it was either really depressed or like euphoric. Just this kind of like really up, really creative, really manic. I'm really productive, really on all my good habits or whatever the hell. And I've been lately realizing like it's kind of weird, it's kind of uncomfortable sometimes where I'll be like I'm tired but I'm just reading a book, but I'm not sad, I'm not like messed up. I just don't feel like doing stuff in an intense way. And. And maybe Ally ask me, like, are you okay? Are you upset? I'm like, no, I'm actually not. I feel totally fine. It's just sort of like. Like, flat in a way that's, like, peaceful. And I'm sitting there and I'm going, She's like, are you depressed? Are things okay? Which is a good thing to ask because I'm prone to that. And I'll just be really investigating inside and going, no, I think I'm just fine. I think I'm just, like, content. And I think that's, like, weirdly not a very encouraged or explored or expressed feeling in our society. It's either, like, I don't know, maybe because the only way we're allowed to be okay is, like, if you're just, like, on it all the time, doing all the hundred thousand good habits you're supposed to do every day to be a complete and okay person. And I. I'm just starting to learn that maybe you're allowed to just be fine, you know? And it feels really nice. I think it's also a little confusing, too, and maybe challenging for both of us because, like, it's also related to not masking as much. And so I think when I don't put on a performance of, like, yeah, I'm great.
- [61:22]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Oh, everything's good. Oh, gosh.
- [61:23]
Jarrett Sleeper
It's like, do you. Are you mad? Are you sad?
- [61:25]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Are you weird?
- [61:26]
Jarrett Sleeper
And I'm like, no, I'm just not performing for anyone, including myself. And so, I don't know, still navigating it, because I'm definitely realizing now, you know, Allie would take pictures of me or I see a little video and I definitely have resting bitch face. And I just have to be like, no, I'm actually not feeling bitchy at all. I'm just feeling like I don't have to perform for anyone because I feel safe and comfortable and just, like, fine. And that's weird and new. And that's my weird secret this week. All right, thanks, guys. Thanks for letting me guest in here. This is really fun and, well make music and stuff. All right, Bir.
- [62:03]
Dr. David Bashwiner
Bye.
- [62:04]
Alie Ward
Pachydermatology, Cryptozoology, Lithology, Nanotechnology, Meteorology, Olfactology, mapology, serology.
- [62:22]
Jarrett Sleeper
That went well, right? That's fine.
- [62:25]
Dr. David Bashwiner
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Alie Ward
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Jarrett Sleeper
McDouble FIFA World cup meal deal. They come with small fries, a soft
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Alie Ward
drink, four piece McNuggets and one of nine legendary cups.
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Jarrett Sleeper
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Alie Ward
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Jarrett Sleeper
All rights reserved. 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026.