Crotalology (RATTLESNAKES) with Emily Taylor

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ologies with Alie Ward – Crotalology (Rattlesnakes) with Dr. Emily Taylor

Introduction

In the June 25, 2025 episode of Ologies hosted by Alie Ward, listeners are introduced to the fascinating world of rattlesnakes through an in-depth conversation with Dr. Emily Taylor, a renowned crotallogist. Dr. Taylor is a professor of Biological Sciences at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, director of the Physical Ecology of Reptiles Lab, and an advocate for rattlesnake conservation. She also manages the Central Coast Snake Services, which focuses on the humane relocation of rattlesnakes to prevent their extermination by humans.

Understanding Rattlesnakes: Biology and Identification

Dr. Taylor begins by clarifying common misconceptions about rattlesnakes, emphasizing the importance of proper identification. She explains that rattlesnakes belong to two specific genera, Crotalus and Sistrurus, within the viper family, distinguished primarily by their rattle—a modified segment of keratin at the end of their tails. Unlike other snakes, rattlesnakes exhibit a rattle that serves as a defensive mechanism to warn potential threats.

"Rattlesnakes are specifically two genera, Crotalus and Sistrurus, two types of vipers. They are different from all other snakes because they have a rattle on their tail, which is like modified keratin, so modified scales." ([05:20])

Dr. Taylor further elaborates on the structure of the rattle, dispelling the myth that it contains small beans or other materials. Instead, each segment of the rattle is intricately connected, allowing it to produce the characteristic sound when the snake vibrates its tail.

Behavior and Ecology

Rattlesnakes are primarily ambush predators with a highly efficient metabolism, requiring as few as 500 to 600 calories per year. This low metabolic rate allows them to endure long periods without food, sometimes going up to a year between meals.

"Rattlesnakes have an extremely low metabolism. They just sit there and kind of turn off their bodies in between meals." ([21:11])

Their hunting strategy involves remaining motionless and camouflaged, waiting for unsuspecting prey such as rodents to come within striking distance. This method contrasts with other snakes like gopher snakes, which are more active hunters.

Dr. Taylor also discusses the coevolutionary relationship between rattlesnakes and California ground squirrels. Ground squirrels have developed resistance to rattlesnake venom, leading to an evolutionary arms race where rattlesnakes have concurrently evolved more potent venom to compensate.

"They are resistant... the squirrels are actually the reason the rattlesnake's venom is so toxic. Because it was only then over this evolutionary arms race that the rattlesnake's venom, when mutated, made it randomly more toxic." ([10:36])

Anatomy and Sensory Adaptations

Rattlesnakes possess heat-sensitive pits located beneath their nostrils, enabling them to detect infrared radiation and effectively "see" warm-blooded prey even in complete darkness. This adaptation is especially beneficial for nocturnal hunting in hotter climates, such as Arizona, where Dr. Taylor conducted her graduate studies.

"Pit vipers have these exquisitely heat-sensitive pits underneath their nostrils that can distinguish just like 0.0002 degrees Celsius difference in the background." ([19:36])

Their triangular-shaped heads house two large venom glands, giving them a distinct appearance compared to non-venomous snakes like gopher snakes, which can mimic rattlesnake behavior but lack the rattle and venomous capabilities.

Misconceptions and Public Perception

Dr. Taylor addresses several myths surrounding rattlesnakes, such as the belief that young rattlers are more venomous or that dead rattlesnake heads can still bite. She clarifies that while severed heads may remain alive and potentially deliver bites for hours, true zombie bites are extremely rare and not a widespread threat.

"There’s a grain of truth, but it’s mostly flimflam. When the rattlesnake’s head has been severed from its body, it is still alive. It can be alive for hours afterwards." ([60:24])

Additionally, she debunks the notion that screaming or aggressive rattling is a guaranteed indicator of a snake's intent to bite, emphasizing that rattlesnakes typically prefer to avoid confrontation.

Conservation Efforts

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to conservation efforts aimed at protecting rattlesnake populations. Dr. Taylor highlights organizations such as Save the Snakes and Rattlesnake Solutions, which work towards humane snake relocation and public education to foster coexistence between humans and rattlesnakes.

"These organizations do incredible work in relocating rattlesnakes from people's yards so that people don't have to kill them anymore." ([37:17])

She also introduces listeners to Project Rattle Cam, a live-streaming initiative that allows the public to observe rattlesnake behavior in their natural habitats, fostering appreciation and understanding.

Rattlesnake Bites: Myths vs. Facts

Addressing listener concerns, Dr. Taylor shares her personal experience of being bitten by a western diamondback rattlesnake during her research years. She emphasizes that while rattlesnake bites are serious and require immediate medical attention, fatalities are exceedingly rare in the United States.

"Rattlesnake bites can be avoided simply by not messing with the animal and by wearing proper footwear when you go on hikes." ([26:07])

She outlines current first aid recommendations, advising against outdated practices such as cutting or sucking venom and stressing the importance of seeking professional medical help promptly.

Social Behavior and Intelligence

Contrary to the solitary image often associated with snakes, Dr. Taylor presents evidence of complex social behaviors in rattlesnakes. Studies have shown that rattlesnakes engage in social buffering, where the presence of a companion can significantly reduce stress levels.

"Rattlesnakes are cryptically social. They exhibit kin recognition and social networks." ([46:00])

She also touches upon their mating rituals and paternal behaviors, highlighting that male rattlesnakes actively participate in child-rearing, a trait not commonly recognized in reptiles.

Rattlesnake Venom and Medicinal Uses

Dr. Taylor discusses the beneficial applications of rattlesnake venom in medicine. Several drugs derive from snake venom, including eptifibatide, an anticoagulant used to prevent blood clots in patients undergoing heart procedures, and captopril, an ACE inhibitor for treating high blood pressure.

"Rattlesnake venoms save, in the United States, dramatically more human lives than they take." ([62:08])

She explains the process of synthesizing these compounds in laboratories, reducing the need to harvest venom directly from live snakes.

Media Representation and Public Awareness

The episode critiques the often sensationalized portrayal of rattlesnakes in media and entertainment, which typically focuses on their potential threat rather than their ecological importance. Dr. Taylor advocates for more accurate representations that highlight rattlesnakes' roles in controlling rodent populations and their intricate social structures.

"Everything in snakes that is shown is incorrect. But I don't know, though. I mean, it doesn't really bother me that much because it's all just kind of silly." ([74:15])

Listener Questions

The latter part of the podcast features a Q&A segment where Dr. Taylor addresses various listener-submitted questions:

1. Rattlesnake Aversion Classes for Dogs

   • These classes can be effective in preventing dogs from approaching or getting bitten by rattlesnakes by associating the presence of a snake with a negative experience.

2. Rattlesnake Relocation Ethics

   • Dr. Taylor emphasizes the importance of relocating snakes to suitable habitats to ensure their survival, discouraging long-distance relocations that may endanger the snakes.

3. Zombie Bites

   • Clarification that while rattlesnake heads can remain alive for several hours post-decapitation, true zombie bites are rare and not a common threat.

4. Best Practices for Encountering Rattlesnakes

   • She advises maintaining calm, slowly backing away, and avoiding unnecessary interference, reinforcing that rattlesnakes are generally non-aggressive if left undisturbed.

5. Rattlesnake Vaccine for Dogs and Humans

   • Currently, there is no reliable rattlesnake vaccine available for dogs or humans, with existing options being ineffective or discontinued.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to participate in Snake Week (July 13-19, 2025) and support conservation efforts through organizations like the Rattlesnake Conservancy. Dr. Taylor underscores the importance of respect and coexistence with rattlesnakes, advocating for informed interactions to ensure both human safety and snake preservation.

"Saving rattlesnake lives is a safety issue for people too. What's good for rattlesnakes is good for people." ([73:09])

Listeners are encouraged to engage with Project Rattle Cam to observe rattlesnakes in their natural environments and to spread accurate information to dispel ongoing misconceptions.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "Rattlesnakes are specifically two genera, Crotalus and Sistrurus... they have a rattle on their tail." ([05:20])
• "Rattlesnakes have an extremely low metabolism... they can go for a year or more without food." ([21:11])
• "They see this hot little tail and they're like, back the heck away, please go." ([06:18] discussion of squirrel interaction)
• "Rattlesnake venoms save, in the United States, dramatically more human lives than they take." ([62:08])
• "Saving rattlesnake lives is a safety issue for people too." ([73:09])

Resources and Further Information

• Project Rattle Cam: projectrattlecam.org
• Rattlesnake Conservancy: savethebuzztails.org
• Books by Dr. Emily Taylor:
  • California Snakes and How to Find Them
  • California Lizards and How to Find Them
• Snake Identification Groups: Available on social media platforms for public participation.
• Snake Week Event: snakeweek.org

Final Thoughts Dr. Emily Taylor's expertise provides a comprehensive and empathetic perspective on rattlesnakes, challenging long-held fears and advocating for a balanced understanding of these vital reptiles. Her work not only enhances public knowledge but also fosters a sense of stewardship towards rattlesnake conservation.

Transcript

[Tinks]

What's up podcast listeners? It's Tanks host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting, summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashray, Connor Wood and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating. And so as a black woman in recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay.

[Tinks]

When we learn the power of hope, recovery is possible, find out [e-mail] brought.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

To you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the Ad.

[Allie Ward]

Council oh hey, it's a 13 year old poodle in a Baby Bjorn Alie ward. Congratulations, you're here. Let's bust some flimflam with the world's biggest fan and advocate for rattlesnakes. They grew up moving around the country in a Navy family and they've seen so many types of ecology, but they got their PhD from Arizona State University. They're now a professor in the Biological sciences at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, the director of the Physical Ecology of Reptiles Lab. They run the Central Coast Snake Services, which helps relocate rattlesnakes so people don't kill them. Also an author of so many papers on rattlesnakes and the books California Snakes and How to Find Them and California Lizards and How to Find Them. They're a co founder of this year's inaugural snake week from July 13th through 19th and you can find out [e-mail] they have a bunch of events and webinars. They also Project Rattle Cam, which brings you live feeds of rattlesnakes in their natural habitat. It's a joy. I suggest you go check out Project Rattlecam. I had them on a list of mine for years and I finally met up with them in a hotel while we were both in la walking into a hotel lobby to talk about rattlesnakes on a Tuesday. Normal stuff.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I see a snake.

[Allie Ward]

Snake dress Hi, I'm Allie hi Emily, how are you? Thank you. I wasn't chill about it, but before I even got there, I had taken a quick survey that this rattlesnake expert uses to determine perception of the snakes and then I took one after. So if you feel like contributing your own data before and after, we'll link the survey in the show notes and on our website. So we got to the hotel. We sunk into a couch to talk about all things rattlesnake. Now, their genus, Crotalus, means rattle in Greek and the timber rattlesnake. I just found this out. They got a raw deal. They're named Crotalus horridus, which means rattling terrible, as if its taxonomy were a Yelp review. But we'll be changing perceptions in a moment. But first, thank you so much to the patrons for sending in their questions for this episode. We could not make the show without them. You too can join for as little as a dollar a month at patreon.com ologies thank you to everyone wearing ologies [e-mail] and thanks for all the reviews which help the show so much. I read and thank you this week to Peachy Keen 4016, who wrote that when everything feels like just too much and the world seems like it's on fire, ologies is a hug from a friend in the safe space of a treehouse. Peachy keen 4016 I hope you like rattlesnakes. Well, you will in a bit, I promise. Also, sorry everyone for the amount of times I gasp in this. I couldn't control it. So crawl out from under that cozy woodpile, tune your ears to the angelic rattle of one of the world's most maligned, misunderstood, gorgeous, mysterious, efficient creatures, and learn things such as the parenthood strategies of rattlers, how not to get bitten, what to do if you are bitten, the boggling statistics that will ease your mind, using snakes as props, their relationship with squirrels, antivenom vaccines, mattress trivia, mood snakes, and so, so much more with author, professor, advocate, herpetologist, and one of the world's foremost rattlesnake experts, and thus a crotallogist, Dr. Emily Taylor.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Emily Taylor, a she hers and I'm a professor of biology at Cal Poly.

[Allie Ward]

Slo let's talk a little bit about what a rattler is and what people think it is. So a lot of people see a bull snake or other types of snakes and they think it's a rattler. How do they differ from other snakes?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Really great question. And you're absolutely right. In fact, the past week I've gotten multiple texts to our snake hotline that we have with. I have a rattler snake in my yard. And it turns out it's a harmless gopher snake or a bull snake. And that's because rattlesnakes shake their tails and they do it when they're stressed out. And it can make a rattling noise in the leaf litter. Really? Yeah. And so that's actually evolutionarily ancient that snakes shake their little tails when they're stressed out. But rattlesnakes basically evolved kind of a maraca on the end of it to make a big ruckus. It's a defensive mechanism. And so rattlesnakes are specifically two genera, Cordless and cistrus, two types of vipers. And they are different from all other snakes because they have a rattle on their tail, which is like modified keratin, so modified scales. It's made like your fingernails rattling noise, saying, back the heck away, please go.

[Allie Ward]

And are the rattles rattling against each other or are there little beans in there making the noise?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I'm gonna explain it my best, but it is not filled with little things.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It's actually insane. Like what you're seeing from the outside is each segment is just a part of the actual segment on the inside. And it's the most intricate thing you've ever seen. Like, forget, you know, seashell shape, like being intricate. This is just incredible. There's like a cross section you can look at where you can see how they loosely hook into another. So when the snake shakes its tail, shaker muscle, which is four times faster than hummingbird wings can beat. No, they bang against each other and make that high pitched noise. Scientists who love rattlesnakes love them fiercely.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And so lots of people are studying the evolution of the rattle. And briefly, there's a few hypotheses about why it evolved or how it evolved. One was to warn off predators that might want to eat them. One was to warn off kind of grazing bison that might be stepping on them. And then one hypothesis is that ancient ancestors of rattlesnakes would use their little tails as a lure to bring in maybe small birds or other rodents that thought it was a worm.

[Allie Ward]

No.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. And eventually this thing was co opted for defense. So we don't really know for sure except that it's been pretty recent. Rattlesnakes have evolved in the past 12 to 14 million years.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, okay. And how long have snakes been around?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

A lot longer than that. Many, many, many, many millions of years, more than that. But certainly the ancestors of rattlesnakes were shaking those little tails when they were stressed out for many millions of years before that.

[Allie Ward]

Is it kind of like how squirrels shake their tails when they're threatened?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, it's funny that you say that, because squirrels in particular will shake their tails in a specific way when they see a rattlesnake.

[Allie Ward]

What? How?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. So actually, when I'm out in the field, I can see a California ground squirrel from a distance and I can tell if it's shaking its tail at a snake.

[Allie Ward]

No. What does it do?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So they have this really specific tail flagging behavior where it will, like, waggle back and forth and then stop. Waggle back and forth and then stop kind of sticking up. And. Are you ready to have your mind blown? Because this is crazy. They'll do it to both gopher snakes and rattlesnakes because both of them could eat the squirrel. And they're basically saying to the gopher snake or rattlesnake, I see you don't even bother hunting. You're not gonna sneak up on me. Well, somebody had the brilliant idea of filming the squirrel shaking its tail using a heat sensitive infrared camera. And as people out there might know, rattlesnakes actually have heat sensitive pits on their face so they can see this infrared radiation. Gopher snakes don't. The squirrels know this instinctively, and they shunt blood to their tails and it lights up like a lightsaber in the rattlesnake's face. Only when it's a rattlesnake. When it's a gopher snake, they don't bother doing that. The tail stays cold.

[Allie Ward]

No.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Incredible.

[Allie Ward]

And so that heat definitely shows up for the pit viper. And it's saying, all right, all right, you see me, I can't sneak up on you.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And they'll leave. Usually they'll leave after that and go hunt somewhere else where they can have that element of surprise.

[Allie Ward]

I know you are dying to know more about squirrels. And don't worry, we have a whole episode called Skritiology, and it is wall to wall squirrel facts. And I'm glad it is in the world and in the show. Notes waiting for you. So the pit vipers, they're seeing this hot little tail and they just move on.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, they'll basically pick up and move on and hunt somewhere else because they're ambush foragers. They're waiting for some unsuspecting rodent to run by. Surprise, surprise. And if the squirrel already knows they're there, then they might as well. Not bother. Plus the squirrels can get in their face. They throw dirt at them, they kick them, and sometimes they even bite them. Sometimes they even kill them.

[Allie Ward]

Are you how they get the butt end of it?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No. You know what, it's crazy. An adult California ground squirrel can survive a rattlesnake bite. How? They're resistant to their venom through coevolution. Well, okay, resistant doesn't mean immune. They sure do die and are eaten by rattlesnakes all the time. But mostly the rattlesnakes are eating the babies who haven't developed the resistance yet. Actually, it's through millions of years of co evolution, the squirrel that happened to have a slight resistance from a mutation more likely to survive, have more babies, pass that on and then they're actually the California ground squirrels are the reason the rattlesnake's venom is so toxic. Because it was only then over this evolutionary arms race that the rattlesnake's venom, when mutation made it randomly more toxic that that rattlesnake had more babies because it had more food and so on. So you know, defense, offense, defense, offense.

[Allie Ward]

And are ground squirrels the only one that have this kind of relationship?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Nope. Wood rats have it too. In fact, predators that eat rattlesnakes have it too. So certain predators can survive. Rattlesnake bites things like possums, probably badgers. Other predators are not resistant things like hawks and owls. And they just tear off the spicy end of the snake before eating it. I've seen a number of birds grab rattlesnakes and then versus grabbing a gopher snake. When it's a gopher snake, they just pick it up and go. When it's a rattlesnake, you see them kind of stamping around in the distance and what they're doing is they're ripping the head off. I think they know they must. Yeah.

[Allie Ward]

And what about for the layperson who freaks out at a gopher snake or freaks out at any kind of brush colored patterned snake, what are some of the hallmarks of a rattlesnake? Let's sing their praises anatomically here.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yes. Well, the best way and the only way for sure to distinguish a rattlesnake from something else is the presence of a rattle. Even baby rattlesnakes have a little button on their tail. So rattlesnakes are never going to have a pointy tail ever. If a snake has a pointy tail here in California, they're totally harmless. You go back east, it depends. And then of course internationally, all bets are off.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And Then there's a whole bunch of other things that you can use to distinguish them. But they can be tricky because the gopher snakes are trying to convince you they're a rattlesnake. They're like, I'm spicy, I'm dangerous, stay away from me. So rattlesnakes have a more triangle shaped head than a gopher snake, but a mad gopher snake is going to spread its head out.

[Allie Ward]

No.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. And the craziest thing is that gopher snakes have actually evolved this special flap of tissue in their throat that will buzz and make a hissing noise that sounds like a rattlesnake's rattle.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. So this is why so many people think they have a rattlesnake in their yard. But it's actually just a gopher snake. You know, the best way to do it is to learn using all of these different kinds of signals. And there's Facebook groups called snake identification that people can post to and they can go on and they can learn and learning about the snakes around them. It's fun too.

[Allie Ward]

And let me tell you, as much as I would love to describe all of the roughly 600 species of venomous snakes in the world, I only have about an hour here and one mouth. So I'm gonna give you some bas to ignore because they're not specific enough. But in general, a pit viper will have a more triangular shaped head. Although. Although the eastern rat snake in the US is harmless and it can expand its little noggin out in a triangle to resemble a pit viper if it's scared. Also, there are snakes like the brightly banded yellow and black and red coral snake. That is not a pit viper and it can look like a harmless corn snake, but it is not. So you got to remember that if yellow touches red, you're dead. The common adage is red on yellow, kill that fellow. Red on black is venom lack. But that seems complicated and a little murdery and maybe sexist. But also there are venomous non rattlesnake pit vipers, like this dull, deep, greenish, dark brown cottonmouth snake and the copperhead snake, which has hourglass shaped patterns. If you are listening from Australia, you have a hundred of the world's 600 venomous snakes. None of them are rattlesnakes. So I hope you are enjoying this episode knowing that you likely won't encounter one in your garden, sadly. Also cobras, venomous but not triangular heads. Those aren't pit vipers. Some people say for venomous snakes, look for slit shaped pupils and that round pupils Mean harmless. But first off, that's not always true at all. Coral snakes are venomous and they have round pupils and many non venomous snakes have slit ones. Secondly, don't get so close to a snake and make eye contact if you're trying to figure out if it can kill you. It's like trying to sniff a bison's neck to figure out if it can trample you. Leave the critters be. Whether they have rattles or fangs or hooves or whatever. Imagine. Imagine if you glanced over at the bus stop and you see someone wearing a jiu jitsu outfit. Would you go pick a fight or try to kill them with a shovel just because they are chilling and they know self defense? I'm hoping not. And now we've talked before about how you're essentially California gal, as am I. What's the range of rattlesnakes? Where do they live? Are they on any other continents, any other states?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Rattlesnakes can be found through the western hemisphere from southern Canada through most states in the United States. They used to be in all states except for Alaska and Hawaii, but they've been extirpated from some of the states in the Northeast. But they're present throughout most of the US and then they go down through Central America throughout most of South America and they end in like northern Argentina.

[Allie Ward]

Extirpated means they are sadly no longer found in that area. I got you. And when does your life intersect with a rattlesnake? Did you see one as a child and were fascinated? Did you come upon someone studying them when you were in grad school? Like, what happened? Why not? A lot of people are like, I'm the rattlesnake lady.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I know sometimes I look back now and wonder, how did this happen? It's like such an esoteric specialty that we have, but all of us have our esoteric specialties. And for me, you know, it's a really important one, I think, because I'm proud to be someone who can speak for these animals that don't have a voice and that really need it the most.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

But no, rattlesnakes got me bit me figuratively in college. I was not a kid that was running around chasing snakes.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No. I moved every two years as a Navy brat and we were outdoorsy people. But I was mostly obsessed with soccer. So I'm an obsessive person and I was obsessed with soccer my entire life. I played in college and then I just transferred that obsession to snakes, to.

[Allie Ward]

Snakes, soccer, to snakes.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It was a college professor who handed me a snake on a field trip. That did it.

[Allie Ward]

What kind of snake was it?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It was a California king snake.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And he found it under a log. And I tell the story sometimes about how, like, my vision kind of went dark around the edges and I thought, look at this amazing tube of, you know, muscle just squirming in my hands. And it can eat prey that's as big as it is without even using its hands and without taking a bite. It's incredible.

[Allie Ward]

Just a heads up. The non venomous California king snake in the wild is most commonly a black and white banded kind of noodle or is black with a racing strip. But it's a really popular pet species. And the color morphs can range from blacks to browns and yellow to even pink and lavender gray. And it's called California kingsnake. I needed to know because like other king snakes, it'll swallow a full other snake. That's like you eating a wetsuit full of hamburger meat. No chewing. Now, while we're in California talking kings, I need to let you know that a California king bed is not larger than a regular king size bed. A California king bed is 4 inches longer than a standard king bed, but it's also narrower. So technically the standard king size bed gives you more surface area. But yes. Back to the non venomous California king snake snake that Emily's professor found.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And then when I started learning about venom and how that works and the kinds of things that rattlesnakes do, and rattlesnakes also being a little bit forbidden, you know, because they're venomous, got me really excited to start studying them.

[Allie Ward]

They might be the gothest of all snakes.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, they're totally metal. That's what my students say all the time. Yeah, they really are.

[Allie Ward]

And then, okay, let's distinguish what is a snake versus what is a pit viper. A pit viper is a snake. Not all snakes are pit vipers. But is it those heat sensing pits that make them a pit viper?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yes. So snakes are a lineage of. Gasp. Lizards.

[Allie Ward]

They're a lineage of lizards.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, yes, Evolutionarily speaking, they evolved from within lizards adaptively radiated into thousands of species, all of them, you know, limbless. P.S. limbless evolved multiple different times within lizards too. So it's not just the snakes, which is legless lizards. Mm, yeah, but like a bunch of different times separately.

[Allie Ward]

Limblessness. Why did it evolve? It seems like having little tiny hands, having little toenails would help you. Is it just to snake through the grass faster? What? What's the deal?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

You're right on with that. Okay. There's various hypotheses for limblessness, but the main one seems to be locomotion and speed. Elongating your body and getting much smaller limbs allows them to kind of slither through the grass or even through the sand underground, burrowing a lot better and faster than these beefy limbed lizards. So that's why we think it evolved. It seems to correspond with the multiple times of limblessness is that it corresponded with animals kind of moving underground and into these plant filled areas.

[Allie Ward]

And There are around 15 different families of snakes, depending on who you ask and if you're up for a heated conversation. And they range from the familiar ones like boas and pythons and colubrids, which are the grass snakes and those king snakes, to more obscure families such as the Asian pipe snakes and the Mexican burrowing snakes and the Elapidae, which includes cobras, coral snakes and the mamba, among others.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So snakes evolved. And there's multiple families of snakes. One family is the family Viperidae, which are the vipers, and then one subfamily within that is Crotallinae, which is the pit vipers. And you're absolutely right. Pit vipers have these exquisitely heat sensitive pits underneath their nostrils that can distinguish just like 0.0002 degrees Celsius difference in the background. So the idea is probably like they can see with their eyes, they can sense heat with these pits, and their brain probably forms some sort of overlaid thermal and visual image that helps them detect these warm prey that run by in pitch black.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, that's amazing. Well, with the pits that they are using like a thermal camera you mentioned at night, are rattlesnakes. Do they tend to be nocturnal?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Depends on where you are.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I went to grad school at Arizona State University, and all summer long I was out all night long. I had to become nocturnal, which is hard for me because I am diurnal. That's because in a desert where it's really hot, the snakes are gonna be out at night exclusively. It's just too hot for them to be out during the day. But here in coastal California, they're much more diurnal. They tend to be out during the day, so it's much more weather driven, I think, than anything.

[Allie Ward]

Are they better hunters than other types of snakes or do they just have like cooler equipment?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I feel like that's a philosophical question. So how would we measure that? If we measure that in terms of how much food they get, I would say no, that the ambush foraging lifestyle Leads to them getting less food.

[Allie Ward]

Really?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. So they have to wait till something runs by. Whereas a gopher snake is climbing up trees and raiding birds nests. It's poking its head around and getting a bunch of rodents. Rattlesnakes don't need as much food.

[Allie Ward]

So stalking and then waiting to hop out with a vampire surprise is not as food yielding as going on a long trek looking for it. But it works for the rattlesnakes.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Rattlesnakes have an extremely low metabolism. It's like all snakes have really low metabolism and low metabolic energetic needs. But rattlesnakes have almost an order of magnitude even lower than other snakes.

[Allie Ward]

Really?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. So they just sit there and kind of turn off their bodies in between meals. So they're not making any stomach acid. Their heart actually shrinks up to being really small. They just kind of go quiescent. And then shockingly, as soon as they nab a meal which can be months apart even, they can go for a year or more without food.

[Allie Ward]

Oh my God. How much do they eat? So According to the 2021 study, thermal ecology and baseline energetic requirements of a large bodied ectotherm suggest resilience to climate change, which of course, Emily was an author on. Rattlesnakes need about 500 to 600 calories per year. That's like one or two calories. Intermittent fasting bros could never.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They instantly turn on everything and the whole body just revs up. And they fuel all that using their stored fat, but then they're gonna get it back from the food that they eat. And so they don't actually eat as much, but they don't have to eat as much. And so they're very successful in their own right. But they don't need as much food and don't get as much food as those other snakes.

[Allie Ward]

So efficient they really are.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Rattlesnakes specifically just have us beat.

[Allie Ward]

How long do rattlesnakes live? Do they hibernate?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Rattlesnakes will hibernate, absolutely. When it's in cold areas and they may not hibernate at all. They might be active during the winter, just reduced activity. Some people use a word called brumate instead, but I don't really distinguish between those. Essentially they have a cold induced drop in metabolic rate and they just sit and wait it out.

[Allie Ward]

They just hang.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. And they live for a long time. To answer your question, many decades. Many decades, yes.

[Allie Ward]

No way.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. And this is something that I think that is a really important thing for people to know about. Rattlesnakes is that, you know, easily finding males, which are the big ones or males that are, you know, 20, 25 years old in the wild. But that's just kind of a typical adult male. We know that rattlesnakes can live a lot longer. I was just in San Diego with my friend Jeff Lem, and he's got a 29 year old snake that was an adult when he found it. He's marked it multiple times.

[Allie Ward]

Wow.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And then there's one timber rattlesnake in New York that's over 50 years old and was a female.

[Allie Ward]

And do they get additional rattles like tree rings or is that flim flam?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Okay. This is a perfect opportunity to introduce the concept that everything you've heard about rattlesnakes is flimflam. Okay. But there's a tiny grain of truth to it.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So rattlesnakes do add a new rattles segment every time they shed. And on average, an adult rattlesnake might shed one time per year. There's your grain of truth. However, the rattles break off.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Just like your fingernails break off.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Also, rattlesnakes sometimes will shed more times, sometimes will shed less times. So now you cannot tell its age based on its rattle, but someone like me or another rattlesnake biologist, you can look at its rattle and you can tell whether it's young or old based on the shape of it. Because when it makes that new rattle segment at the base, it's the same width as its tail.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So if you see one that's got like a tapering rattle, it means that a few years ago when it made those smaller rattles, it was a little guy. Oh, so it's young. Whereas if it has just this fat rattle that has no taper and it's broken off, you know that a few years ago it was a big girl already, and so therefore she's an old grownup.

[Allie Ward]

So they come from the base of the tail. They don't just keep adding little ones at the top.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. They add them at the base. And so you can find them sometimes where they have a complete rattle string, where the baby button, which is really obvious, it's rounded on the end, they'll have that one at the end and then, you know, have, I don't know, eight or 10 below it. You can say that snake is maybe, I don't know, five or six years old because they tend to shed more when they're young. But these are the kind of things we look at and we're just guessing, we don't know for sure how old they are.

[Allie Ward]

What's another flimflam?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

How much time do we have? Well, the biggest one is that the bites from the baby rattlesnakes are more dangerous than bites from adult rattlesnakes.

[Allie Ward]

That's not true.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No, it's not true. And that one comes in all kinds of forms. It comes in, oh, you know, the baby has more toxic venom. That's actually possibly the grain of truth is that drop per drop, sometimes baby rattlesnakes might have more toxic venom. But, I mean, adults inject so much more venom that it just doesn't really matter. But bites from adults are far worse. You know, they say that sometimes babies can't control their venom. They can and they do. Of course, I should preface all this by saying that rattlesnakes do not want to bite people. And they very, very rarely do bite people. But when they do, it is flimflam that the bites from the babies are worse.

[Allie Ward]

Have you ever been bitten?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yes.

[Allie Ward]

What? I can't believe I didn't ask this as soon as we sat down. Okay, what happened? Obviously you lived to tell the tale.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, I did. As does basically everyone else, too. There's like three and a half on average deaths from snake bite in the United States every year. And most of those are people who failed to seek medical treatment.

[Allie Ward]

Oh.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So I will never minimize the seriousness of snake bite. However, it's important that people know that rattlesnakes are not there waiting to jump out at them. So I was interacting with a snake. It was what we call an illegitimate bite because I was engaging the snake.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

A legitimate bite would be if you step on one on a trail or, you know, you don't see it when you're gardening. It's an accident.

[Allie Ward]

Okay. So Emily told me that a large percentage of rattlesnake induced deaths in the US Are from people who wish not to seek treatment with antivenom because they are involved in religious, usually Pentecostal snake handling spectacles to prove God's love and protection. Which has gotta be such a bummer for the snake. The snakes are like, please, the Bible, don't bring me into your shit so much. I just want to eat rats.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And it was one of my research animals in Arizona when I was in grad school in a lab, and I was studying it and I was doing the same thing all day, every day. And I got uncareful, I guess, and learned my lesson.

[Allie Ward]

What happened?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

You know, I went to the hospital over what was actually terrible, Ellie, because I Was in the lab. And I guess things were slow at the Good Samaritan Hospital that day because they sent like eight paramedics.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And everyone in the building was like, what's happening? And they made me go on the gurney even though I felt fine.

[Allie Ward]

What a spectacle.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It was terrible.

[Allie Ward]

Eight paramedics are like, I gotta see this. Where was it on your bod?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It was in my hand.

[Allie Ward]

Okay. Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. And I was lucky. It was a western diamondback rattlesnake, which doesn't imply lucky. They're big snakes with lots of venom, but I didn't get much venom. I had anti venom. I was there overnight and I ended up being fine. I'll tell you, snakebite is something to avoid at all costs, though, because it doesn't always turn out that way. Sometimes people will lose the use of a finger or something, you know, your ankle, it's terrible. But rattlesnake bites can be avoided simply by not messing with the animal and by wearing proper footwear. When you go on hikes.

[Allie Ward]

Okay. Like not Tevas or.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, all of us are now having those, like, sleek hiking footwear so we don't get stinky feet.

[Allie Ward]

Uh huh.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Breathable mesh panels. Rattlesnake fang. We'll go right through that. So let's get back to the days of the nice big, thick leather hiking boots like we had when we were kids.

[Allie Ward]

The Danner boots with the. Or whatever has the red shoelaces that.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

You see pretty much. Although I'll still say, you know, I've stepped next to, on accident, countless rattlesnakes. And they mostly just sit there. They do not want to bite. They really do not want to bite. In fact, I have a grad student starting with me in the fall who wants to study defensive behavior of rattlesnakes. And he's coming up with this contraption about putting something next to it so it'll bite. I said, they're not gonna bite it. Like, it's so hard to get a rattlesnake to bite it. Really hard.

[Allie Ward]

Is it really? Do they just see a wall of heat coming at it and they're like, this is Godzilla. I'm not gonna eat this. I'm just gonna wait it out and if they come for me, then shit can go down.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, basically. I mean, it's really complicated. So each rattlesnake has kind of three lines of defense. Camouflage is the first one. It doesn't want to give itself away. A lot of times we'll be walking around looking for a snake and Realize we stepped over it multiple times because it just blends right in. Second one is rattling, saying, back off, and the third one is biting to defend itself. They don't necessarily go in that order. They all have personalities.

[Allie Ward]

They do.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They totally do. By studying them individually using radio telemetry, three different species over the past 25 years, you get to know their individual personalities. And some of them would never even rattle or bite, no matter what you did. And some of them will rattle at you from 20ft away and bite at the tongs every time because they're terrified. So, yeah, you can make a generalization that they are scared. They see this wall coming at them. Or sometimes they only bite when you step on them. But it really is really rare. The actual truth is that we have tons of people out there and even more dogs who are sticking their faces in the rattlesnake's face. And the rattlesnakes are defending themselves. And occasionally we get bites. Very, very few. There's like 800 in California every year, I think.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, that's it.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Maybe 8,000 in the whole U.S. and actually, a lot of those are other snakes, not even rattlesnakes.

[Allie Ward]

I should ask, what did it feel like when you got a little nicked? Did you feel any tingling or anything? Or did you just go, aw, shit?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I definitely said, aw, shit.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And maybe much worse than that. I did not have pain from the venom until much later when the swelling. There's been a study that's been done where they interviewed multiple snakebite victims and found that it's highly variable. Some people feel this burning, searing pain going up their arm or their foot. Some people feel nothing for a long time. And I think mine was because I didn't have all that much venom as far as snake bites go. So I didn't feel anything for a while.

[Allie Ward]

How much was your antivenom?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So this was in the year 2000.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Different antivenom than we have now. And my whole hospital stay was. I remember it was $15,000, which was paid for by my medical insurance.

[Allie Ward]

Nice. But remember, this was 25 years ago.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Nowadays, we're routinely having bites that are in the many, many hundreds of thousands, sometimes exceeding 500,000 and lately even exceeding a million dollars.

[Allie Ward]

No way is that. Because the antivenom is just so hard to obtain.

[Tinks]

This is why we're here.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Unobtainium. The antivenom is very expensive for really complicated reasons. It's expensive to make the companies who make it have to keep lots of snakes healthy on hand to get the venom. They inject the venom into either sheeps or horses, which then produce antibod where they're not hurt, take them out, produce antibodies. They have to maintain those herds, they have to make the antivenom, which consists of the antibodies to all of these toxins, purify it, and then once they've made it, it sits unstable in a hospital refrigerator and will eventually expire if it's not used.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And then of course we also know that just everything costs a lot in the United States pharmaceutical system.

[Allie Ward]

Sure does.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, sure does.

[Allie Ward]

In 2022, four people in the United States died from rattlesnake bites. One of them was six years old and riding his bike. And the other three were dudes around 50 or older who kept captive rattlesnakes. So your yearly odds in the US at least of dying by a rattlesnake bite are 1 in 100 million. The best way to avoid that is not owning a bunch of rattlesnakes, even though they are charismatic and they do have a face card that is a sleigh. Lets talk about how snatched their jawlines are. I mean like a triangle shaped head. Can you talk about their head shape, how it's so different?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yes. So rattlesnakes and other vipers have this triangle shaped head because they've got these two big juicy venom glands on the side of each head. And if you were to, you know, dissect one and look inside, you'd find that they were tightly wrapped in mussels. That when the rattlesnake strikes, which if you blink, you'll miss it, they will open their mouths. They have these fangs that fold out. They're folded up in their little mouths. When they're sitting there, they fold out.

[Allie Ward]

Kind of like a pocket knife that hinges outward, but tiny and hollow and.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

The muscles around the venom gland contract and push that venom out through the hollow fangs like hypodermic needles injected into the prey usually let go and the prey runs off somewhere. It dies and then the rattlesnake can follow the smell trail of the envenomated prey. So that's what gives them those big poofy heads. And the southwestern speckled rattlesnake. Those ones have the poofiest head of all.

[Allie Ward]

They do? Why?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, it may have something to do with the relative size of their fangs and what they eat and the types of venom they produce, but they look like just, you know, stocky little teddy bears with those huge heads.

[Allie Ward]

What about the venom itself? What is in it? What does it do Is it like an anticoagulant? What does it do to their prey? Where it just sort of stumbles off and then has like a very cinematic death in a bush?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, lots of stuff. So we call the venom cocktails because they're full of so many things. Proteins, including cytotoxins, which means cell toxins. So it starts to eat away at cells and tissues. It contains, in some cases, neurotoxins that may interfere with the breathing muscles of the prey. Definitely contains hemotoxins, which is what you just mentioned. Things like anticoagulants, also some coagulants. Oh, they don't cancel themselves out. They just cause a massive dysregulation of blood flow.

[Allie Ward]

Oh.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And depending on the type of rattlesnake, because venoms really vary dramatically. And depending on the prey and its resistance, death will come from this bleeding internally or from neurological effect. So many different things that can do it. But venoms also contain a single protein that is not a toxin. And for years they couldn't figure out what the heck it did until removing that protein meant that the rattlesnake couldn't find the envenomated prey anymore.

[Allie Ward]

Whoa.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So it's called a relocator protein because it instantly causes the smell of the prey to change so that it leaves a unique scent trail, you know, on top of all those other rodent trails that have run over there all night.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So cool, right?

[Allie Ward]

It's so advanced.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It's incredible.

[Allie Ward]

That's nuts. I should ask what's the most beautiful rattlesnake? If we can be superficial.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I know. I like to say sometimes that it's like asking a parent to pick their favorite child.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Like it's impossible. But actually there is one. If you get em to tell the.

[Allie Ward]

Truth, that's so real.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So I like the Arizona black rattlesnake because they're in many cases are like pitch black with these just incredible orange spots on them.

[Allie Ward]

So that's an Arizona black rattlesnake.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And they also will change their colors throughout the course of a day based on temperature.

[Allie Ward]

You know, like a mood ring.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It's impressive. And all rattlesnakes will change their colors a little bit, but the Arizona black rattlesnake is the king of it. They can be kind of like a grayish background with the dark spots and then almost before your eyes instantaneously go complete black with these orange spots.

[Allie Ward]

How does it benefit them?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No one really knows. We have a paper we published suggesting that the stress hormones, which, if they get stressed out. Their background color gets a little bit darker. It might cause them to be able to blend in a little bit better, but it's totally hand waving. We don't know for sure.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, that's so cool.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I know.

[Allie Ward]

And to go way back on this, you can see the 1941 paper, the Pituitary Regulation of Melanophores and the Rattlesnake, which notes that the removal of the pituitary causes a permanent paling of color, which becomes more evident after the shedding of epidermal layer which had that previously deposited melanin. So people have been fascinated on the inner and the outer workings of rattlers for years. Of course. What about who's doing good work in conservation and outreach for rattlesnakes, including yourself, like to donate to if there's a cause?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, there's lots of causes out there. So a few of them include advocates for snake preservation. They're a wonderful nonprofit that helps with human snake coexistence, primarily in the US There's Save the Snakes, which is based in Sacramento that does worldwide work on human snake coexistence. And then in terms of. Not nonprofits, but other groups that are working on rattlesnake kind of public relations, I like to say there's Rattlesnake Solutions is a popular one that I encourage people to follow. They're a for profit company that does incredible work in Arizona, relocating rattlesnakes from people's yards so that people don't have to kill them anymore.

[Allie Ward]

Nice.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And I do that, too, on a voluntary basis on my little tiny slice of the California central coast. But in Arizona, they're doing as many in one day as I do in the whole year.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And these people do an incredible job on their YouTube channel of educating people about rattlesnakes, because in the summer, they're more. They're looking for the moisture. They're looking for a wet spot on the ground to cool off somewhere to get a drink.

[Allie Ward]

So I don't get how the hook works. You're out there with something that looks like what you would turn a garden sprinkler on with. It looks just like a small pole with a little crook at the end. How do they not climb up it?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Rattlesnakes almost never climb up the hook because they're trying to get away from you.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

However, they will climb off the hook.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I am not a hook girl.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No way.

[Allie Ward]

I thought that was the only way to do it.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No, I have tongs. Whoa.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And you know what, like you could get a few different herpetologists in a room. Snake biologists. And it would just be knock down, drag out about arguing about the best tools. Everyone who has a profession has their best tools. But part of it is because of the types of snakes I work with. So I work with the Northern Pacific rattlesnake. And they're squirrely, they're wiggly, and if you try to use a hook, they're gonna just get away into a bush or down a burrow. If I lived out east and I was working with big rattlesnakes like eastern diamondback rattlesnakes or timber rattlesnakes, you couldn't fit a tongs around them and it might hurt them to use those.

[Allie Ward]

These types of rattlers are the big guns. Growing up to 7ft and weighing over 10 pounds with a girth as big as a soda can. This is not a tong situation.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And they're really slow. So instead you pick them up with hooks. So, you know, I teach training classes on how people can use hooks and tongs because it doesn't look easy and it's something people want to be good at. Save the Snakes also does that. The Rattlesnake Conservancy is another really great group that I failed to mention earlier that runs a bunch of snake handling classes throughout the country.

[Allie Ward]

Cool. We'll link all those sources on our [e-mail] Ologies crotallogy, of course.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So there's lots of ways to learn, but people should definitely learn, because if you look on YouTube, you'll see a lot of people doing things you shouldn't.

[Allie Ward]

Like what?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Like free handling rattlesnakes? Like literally picking up rattlesnakes with their hands?

[Allie Ward]

No.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah. And, you know, even if they're not getting bitten, which presumably they're not going to post as well, they're really just setting a bad example of how to interact with wildlife that's stressing the snake out more. A kid could see it and copycat them. I have no patience whatsoever for free handling. Especially for free handling when people are doing it and posting it for attention.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

If you're gonna post it for other people to look at, shame on you.

[Allie Ward]

Right. And you know it's a rattlesnake, so you know that it's venomous. You'd have to be living under a rock more than a rattlesnake to not know you shouldn't handle it.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They know they're doing it. They do it because it demonstrably brings in clicks and likes and you know, money on YouTube. People love to watch scary things. And speaking of just, I mean, rattlesnakes in general, you know, a lot of people are scared of rattlesnakes, but nobody's ambivalent. People love or hate them, you know, fear or like them. And so they get a lot of attention.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And a lot of times it's just the negative attention. So I really try to bring it around to the positive attention.

[Allie Ward]

You're a good PR person for them.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I try really hard. Well, you know, we have a slogan and it's love the unloved because it's, I don't know, it's kind of like a snake version of the Lorax. Right. We speak for the snakes because they can't speak for themselves.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

A good way to think about it, and this is sad, but it's helpful, is just picture in your mind whatever your favorite wildlife species is.

[Allie Ward]

Let's do baby deer, let's do bambies.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It can be anything. And then I want you to picture the idea that it crawls into someone's yard. And the reality is that this thing is a rodent killing machine. It controls rodent borne diseases like hantavirus and Lyme disease, et cetera. And it just doesn't wanna bite people. It just minds its own business. But it gets its little head cut off. Your favorite wildlife does. And people think maybe that they're doing that in a humane way. But decapitation is very inhumane because the snake's brain lives for hours afterwards. And it's sitting there in the pain and suffering.

[Allie Ward]

It's literally my worst nightmare. Oh, God.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And then in places like Texas and Oklahoma, there's these rattlesnake roundups where again, picture your favorite wildlife just being collected for weeks by the thousands and put in these metal drums where they're just the ones on the bottom are squished into soup and then brought out for the. And just, you know, tortured and killed for the entertainment of thousands to bring in money to this community. And you know, importantly, they do use all of the animals, all the parts of the animals. You know, they don't waste any parts of those bodies, but it's just done in an unregulated way.

[Allie Ward]

And these roundups will serve rattlesnake fritters. They'll sell tchotchkes made of dead snakes. And the roundup yore, of which a few still exist, gather rattlers in the wild by filling up burrows with gasoline, which can also kill and flush out hundreds of other organisms in the wild. Including gopher tortoises. And then once rounded up by the thousands of pounds, these live snakes are brought to an arena, they're put in a big pen, sometimes covered in their own shit, and then they're stomped on. Their mouths are stitched shut for photo ops, and then they're slaughtered in front of onlookers. And one article published by the Yale School of the Environment quoted the executive director of Advocates for Snake Preservation, who describes the constant buzz at these things of defensive rattling as, quote, the sound of a thousand snakes screaming. And the article also noted that western diamondbacks kill about one Texan a year. And the single death in 2022 was a handler at the freer Texas Roundup. So the rattlesnake hunts tend to kill more humans involved with them than out in the wild. Now, thankfully, people are horrified by these practices and they're looking for other options.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

There's plenty of rattlesnake festivals. They used to be these rattlesnake roundups, these kill festivals, but now there are no kill festivals that bring in just as much money to communities that are in celebration of wildlife. So sometimes picturing that and picturing it being an animal that you care about can make you see rattlesnakes in a different way. Cause they don't deserve what they get.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

You know, they live for many decades. There's study after study that shows they have these complex social systems. They have family and friends. They hang out with each other. Really. The moms take care of the babies. Ali.

[Allie Ward]

For how long for.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, in some cases, it's like a week or two, but in other cases, it can be for the entire fall and winter. We have a live streaming camera on a rattlesnake den. It's called Project Rattle Cam. It's the best thing I've ever done. People can tune in and watch this complex parental care where we actually have babysitting aunties that will watch the babies. And when the babies are born, their little umbilical cord breaks. We actually got to see live birth the first time live on YouTube last summer.

[Allie Ward]

And they're viviparous.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, they just give live birth, and we got to see it. They punch their little faces out of the amniotic sac and take the first breath.

[Allie Ward]

Allow me to direct you to the paper. Family values. Maternal care in rattlesnakes is more than mere attendance in the journal Nature, which observed wild rattlesnakes in a den. And they found that live birthed rattlesnake babies are tailed by their moms to make sure that they're safe and okay for like weeks. And in the springtime, pregnant snakes and new moms will all hang out and the aunties help watch over the baby rattlers, warning them when there are potential predators or scaring off the predators. And the grown babes even return to the same winter den as their mom. It's like going home for the holidays. But what are the males up to? Well, according to the study, they are co parenting. Male rattlesnakes will chill with the babies and let them coil on them and around them, proving that yeah, even a male rattlesnake is a better dad than your cousin's ex husband. Males do of course have another role. And I'm proud to say that at a coffee shop today in public, I googled what kind of penis do rattlesnakes have? And discovered that yeah, like many reptiles, they have a hemipene or a forked pronged dong situation. But how do they dust it off to make babies? So an article by advocates for snake preservation titled Rattlesnake Romance gushed that rattlesnakes are great romantics. Males may spend a week or more courting one female to convince her of his worth, sitting nearby, next to or even stacked on top of a female. And then the male will rub her all over her bow day with his chin to say I'm into this. Are you? And if she is not, she will thwack him on a stupid face with her tail, which is not only sad for him but also embarrassing because presumably it's like yelling I am not horny for you while shaking a tambourine. But what if you are friend zoned by a rattlesnake because you are another rattlesnake? Do they have friends or roommates? Wondered Adam Weaver and rattlesnake lovers Harley and Andy Pepper, Charlotte Felkegaard, Zink and Rowan Tree. Who asked, are they social or isolationists? So a 2023 Frontiers in Ethology study titled Social Security can rattlesnakes reduce acute stress through social buffering? Found that rattlesnakes are cryptically social. They exhibit kin recognition and social networks. And it continues that quote, we tested for for the presence of social buffering against an acute stressor in 25 wild caught southern Pacific rattlesnakes when alone, in the presence of a rope and in the presence of a same sex companion. And results indicated that the presence of a companion significantly reduced stress induced emotional heart rate elevation compared to the other treatments. So hell yeah, they do have buddies.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And people don't know this and so this is why it's my job to tell people this because if they know in many cases it's going to change their minds. Yeah, we don't need to love a rattlesnake, but we need to respect the rattlesnake and they don't deserve to have their heads cut off. There's people all over the United States that will come for free and take that rattlesnake out of someone's yard and relocate it into the wild where it can continue to do its wonderful snake stuff. Just not in your yard.

[Allie Ward]

Can I ask you questions from listeners? Yes, of course we have some and and obviously a big one on people's minds. We will reveal those questions in just a minute, but first let's send some cash to Emily's Choice, which is the Rattlesnake Conservancy, which is a nonprofit committed to the long term preservation of imperiled rattlesnake species and their mission is to advance the protection of rattlesnakes and their habitat through research and education. And you can find out more at the adorable URL savethebuzztails.org, which is linked in the show notes and at our website. Also, again, shout out to Project Rattle Cam. We've linked that in the show notes as well so you can watch some live rattlers in their natural habitat. Thank you to sponsors of ologies for making that donation possible.

[Tinks]

What's up podcast listeners? It's Tinks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting, summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences and I want share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashre, Connor Wood and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.

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[Dr. Emily Taylor]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Allie Ward]

Okie Doke let us rattle around in the mailbag via patreon.com Ologies where for one buck a month, you too can submit your questions. Let's go. Many people asked about Lauren Allegra, Boris Grozy, Nathan Marion, Amanda, Jessica Schlarbom, and Debbie Helm all wanted to know. In Jessica's words, I've seen rattlesnake aversion classes for dogs in areas that are high risk for running into a rattlesnake flimflam or do those classes actually work or does it depend on the dog? Are they ethical considering they use live rattlesnakes? What do you do if you got a dog, you go on hikes and you can't have a sit down with the dog to say, hey, don't do that.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Such a great question. So it depends on many different things. First of all, in general, yes, a good rattlesnake aversion training course highly recommend it. It can prevent your dog from being bitten on the face.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So what they do is a good trainer will be one you want to look for a trainer that knows how to take care of rattlesnakes and also as a dog trainer, which are rare to find but they exist out there. Like you don't want me doing it because I know how to take care of rattlesnakes. But if you met my dog, you would know why I'm not a dog trainer. And then you know, you also don't want a dog trainer who just has like a rattlesnake that it's not treating right or doesn't know how it works anyway. They'll do it usually with a live rattlesnake, safely muzzled sight smell, sound of the rattlesnake and they'll pair it with an E collar, a mild buzz, not even a big shock. And the snake is basically a stimulus that the dog associates with pain, which it won't when it actually gets bit, by the way. Really? No, because it's much later that the dog feels the pain. It's not instantaneous, so it doesn't realize that the snake is what bit it.

[Allie Ward]

Oh no.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So what they're doing in these classes is they're simulating a snake bite. So I do recommend that people do it, but do their research on finding a good trainer and then remember, it's not going to be foolproof. The dog might step on a rattlesnake in tall grass that could still be bitten, but it's going to prevent most bites, which are when the dog sees something wiggling, it says, what's that with its little nose?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. So spring through fall is the most likely time that a curious and especially off leash dog may get a snake bite. But there are classes like one offered by the company MA and Paw Kettle Training Services. And yeah, that involves taking dogs through this 10 minute saunter past live but muzzled rattlers. And those are cared for by trained herpetologists. And that teaches the dogs the sounds and smells and the looks of these rattlesnakes. Now what if you can't make it to a good course, what if you're one of the rare unlucky pets who gets envenomated? Well, a 2024 Sacramento Bee article titled A rattlesnake just bit your dog. Here's what to do, experts say, and that advises first off, keep pets on a leash. Stay on trails, avoid tall grass and wood stacks or rock piles, and if bitten, try to keep the dog calm and don't apply a tourniquet or try to suck the venom out. Just rinse the wound quickly and get yourself to at ASAP. And the good news is that with proper treatment, 80% of dogs survive a rattlesnake bite. More on dogs in a minute, but first, let's move on to moving on. Danielle Napolitano, Great question, says hi.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I live in Arizona and have come to really appreciate and love the rattlesnakes here. But I did have a question about relocation. I read somewhere that rattlesnakes are pretty territorial and does relocating them somewhere far away from where they've grown up mess with their chances of survival? I want rattlesnakes near my house, but I also don't want to doom them to death if we have to move them somewhere really far away. Anyway, thanks.

[Allie Ward]

Bye. And as someone who moved a lot as a child, what do you think of relocation or the snakeies?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

That's a really awesome question. So glad we have a chance to talk about this. This is something that I do in my research lab at Cal Poly. People like Brian Hughes at Rattlesnake Solutions are doing research on this too. And the answer is that if you move a rattlesnake a short distance, it's fine. They do fine. If you move a rattlesnake a very long distance, they might do fine, they might not. But the most important thing is moving them into good habitat. You have to make sure you're not letting them go on the side of the road in some random place. They need to be let go into someplace where they can, you know, recover after just being abducted by an alien, essentially, and then be in that good habitat. Especially in a place like Arizona where your question asker lives where it' and if you put them in the wrong spot, they could succumb to the weather. So that's why there's companies like Rattlesnake Solutions who will do the hard work for people. Like I said, we do it as well. On the central coast, there's a free snakerelocation.com people can find a snake relocator near them who Says when they sign up for it, they have to say that they abide by the short distance relocation rule to be able to do that.

[Allie Ward]

They'll take them to a spot that has shade and habitat because they can quickly die if they're overexposed to the heat. So. So someone shows up with a bucket, and maybe your biggest fear is dispatched safely away next to a gopher burrow or a pack rat nest. In the wild, the snake has a buffet. You walk around your patio a little more chill. They save a snake's life, which feels awesome. And yes, people do volunteer to do this because they love snakes and they cherish wildlife, and we love them for it. Do you tip them?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yes. So it's really a good idea to tip your relocator. Sometimes. They're driving hours, sometimes for free. Yeah, there's just this huge network of people who, like me, will do anything to save the life of an individual rattlesnake.

[Allie Ward]

What's a good tip for a rattlesnake relocator?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It really depends on how far they went. If they came from down the street. You know, I'm sure that 20 bucks would be awesome. But I would say that the average actual cost, because I know how much it costs, because I. I have a team of 24 people, and I actually pay them. They're not employees. Don't say anything. But I pass on. We get donations, and I kind of pass it on. I pay them between 50 and $150, and it's usually taking them about two hours. So it's their gas and their time. Yeah, yeah, but of course, I mean, someone just scrounges for change and gives $5. That's nice, too. And occasionally somebody will be very generous and will give $200.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, but take care of your snake relocator.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, they're doing it, you know, because not only are they spending their time and their gas, but they have chosen to be an advocate for an unloved animal and to do this because they want to make a difference and because they know that that snake will end up on the other side of a shovel if they don't.

[Allie Ward]

If you were to ask a rattlesnake, where is home? What would they say? So patrons Patti Earl of Grammalkin, Hannah Gorey, and Haley Balzano all needed to know, in Haley's words, how small is their territory? Footprint. I once saw one while hiking, and it was within two feet of a rattlesnake warning sign. Was this just serendipitous, or do they Normally stick to a small geographical area. What about the territories you mentioned? Dens. But do they have their own sort of patrol area? You know how people see like a cockroach and they say if you see one, there's a thousand. Do people have that mindset about rattlesnakes and is it accurate?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

People definitely have that mindset and it's not really accurate. So in biology the term territorial truly means that an animal defends a territory, meaning like we keep another male out, for example, and they do not do that. They have what we call a home range, which is the area they use that's not defended and they'll overlap with multiple other ones and you'll oftentimes find them together. So it really depends. However they do know that home range. I think that's really what people are asking is do they have a place that they know. So if you move them really far away from that home range, they're going to try to find their way back. And that's why the long distance translocation can be a death sentence. It's true. If you move them and a rule of thumb is usually we try to do within a quarter mile, you tend to know where they are and they tend to not come back.

[Allie Ward]

Okay, are they like, that's where I got abducted by an alien. I'm not hitting that place again.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

We don't know. People have wanted to try to test that hypothesis, but it's a really hard sell to try to, you know, maybe have. You'd want to try to give a rattlesnake a really bad experience and you don't want to do that. You want to make it as easy and stress free on the rattlesnake as possible.

[Allie Ward]

That makes sense. Some people asked about zombie bites. TB33, Scotty D and Michelle Lee wanted to know. TB33 asked, Is it true that dead rattlesnakes still kill a high number of people because even when they're dead they can still bite. Michelle asked, is this actually true or just high school rumor mill flim flam. So yeah, you mentioned their brain can still be alive. But what's with these zombie bites?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, there's a grain of truth, but it's mostly flimflam. The reason it's mostly flim flam is that when the rattlesnake's head has been severed from its body, it is still alive. It's not dead. It can be alive for hours afterwards. And yes, the head can still bite for hours afterwards. So in that case, in that way it's not flimflam, because it's still alive. Once it's actually dead, which in a rattlesnake, same actual definition as any other vertebrate, which is the brain is dead, then it cannot envenomate unless someone got their finger snagged on a fang. So when my students and I are dissecting roadkilled rattlesnakes, which we do in, like, a herpetology class, the TAs and I will wrap the head in medical tape so that the student doesn't accidentally touch a fang. Because an actually, like, long dead, frozen and thawed rattlesnake could still envenomate somebody.

[Allie Ward]

Ooh. So, yes, if you encounter a dead rattlesnake head, do not use it as a gruesome finger puppet or kiss it on his little dead nose. Now, as long as we are talking remedies, what about their venom for medicinal use? Becky McDowell, Ara Victor Janakin's Sustainable Sirenian, and Jack Ever8, wanted to know, are there any health benefits in sustainable Sirenian words for humans? Yeah. What is going on with the venom there?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Can I say how much I love your patrons? They ask the best questions. This is usually something I talk about and I just must have known. But I could wait until the questions always. Yes. So there's a couple of drugs on the. Well, there's a few drugs on the market from snake venoms, including one very prominent drug that saves thousands of lives every year that is literally made from pygmy rattlesnake venom.

[Allie Ward]

Pygmy rattle. How big are those little guys?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They're small. They're so cute. They're over, like, Florida. And they're little bitties, like, you know, foot and a half. Long little cuties.

[Allie Ward]

Cuties. I love them.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They have the tiniest little rattles and they just go, zzz, little baby. But anyway, they have an anticoagulant in their venom that is in a drug called eptifabitide, of course, which since 1998 has been saving the lives of many people who have stents put in their hearts to prop open their coronary arteries if they're at risk of a heart attack. That's because those stents can attract blood clots. And this anticoagulant is particularly good at preventing those blood clots.

[Allie Ward]

Are they able to synthesize that through, like, yeast or bacteria, or do they have to milk the venom?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They now synthesize it.

[Allie Ward]

They do. Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Because there's many more that are under development right now under clinical trials, or are in use, like Captopril, which is one of the most common ACE inhibitors used to treat people with high blood pressure, comes from a Brazilian snake venom. It's not a rattlesnake, but it's a pit viper. And so these are initially made by milking snakes to get their venoms, but then eventually they are made in a laboratory. They save more lives than take them. You know, quite dramatically, rattlesnake venoms save, in the United States dramatically. Dramatically more human lives than they take.

[Allie Ward]

God, that's such a good fact. Poor fucking rattlesnakes.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I know.

[Allie Ward]

Good God.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It's hard to think of any animal, vertebrate especially, that's more maligned and more unfairly maligned. I can't think of a single animal that does more for us and actually resembles us more in terms of our social behavior and taking care of our babies. But is that maligned and misunderstood?

[Allie Ward]

You know? On that note, Jacob shepherd, average pie, Dr. Lena Carpenter, and Sweet Chili, wanted to know, Sweet Chili asked, do rattlesnakes have an inner life? Do they have feelings, or are they soulless, rattling, eating machines? We know that's not true, but Jacob wants to know. Jacob shepherd asked, how intelligent are rattlesnakes? I know that that's all relative, like, you don't need a rattlesnake to drive a stick shift to prove that it's smart, but what kind of cognition do researchers think they have?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, you preface that really well by saying that people have made the mistake over the years of trying to relate all animal intelligence as some sort of fraction of human intelligence. But the reality is that we couldn't be more different organisms. I don't think, if possible, they are so much better and so much more functionally intelligent in the things they do than we are, that if we were to reverse it, we would say that we're pathetic. I mean, just think about the things that they're able to do and the decisions they're able to make out there. We would not be able to do.

[Allie Ward]

Those things, for example, fasting for one year and then breaking that fast with an uncooked gopher.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

But in terms of the things that people typically mean, which is memory, cognition, decision making, and so on, you know, snakes don't tend to fall very high on that ladder. But there have been some studies within snakes that show that rattlesnakes are actually a bit more intelligent than some other snakes in the sense of being able to learn things. So if you put them in a, you know, maze in a laboratory with, you know, there's a warm Hole behind this, you know, this area. They'll learn to find that much more readily than other or other snakes will, if you will. Ooh.

[Allie Ward]

And I should have asked this earlier, but Hendrix, Amanda, Mikayla Marshall wanted to know, in Hendricks words, rattlesnake vaccine for dogs. Is it effective? Why don't we have this for humans? Is there a vaccine? Because I know that if you give someone antivenom, you can also start making antibodies to the antibodies. Right. So what's going on with that?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, there's a rattlesnake vaccine, but it actually, I believe it's licensed or I can't remember, whatever it's called, just ran out. So it's not really even available, I don't think anymore. You can't quote me on that. But no, I mean, I don't even spend time thinking about it because I don't recommend it at all. There's no evidence that it works. There's a group called National Snakebite Support that people can follow, and they're the ones who are the experts on that. They're the veterinary toxicologists, and they say it doesn't work. So I don't give it to my dog.

[Allie Ward]

Okay. Well, anyway, it's gone. Wait, it's back. Literally. As I was researching, there was this ongoing drama with headlines and articles going back and forth about the USDA essentially terminating then renewing the conditional license for the rattlesnake venom vaccine. And the long and short of it is that for decades, this conditional license gets renewed for two years at a time because the results are kind of shaky because researchers haven't been able to make good experimental controls to envenomate dogs, which. Which makes sense for the research dogs. But Emily doesn't bother with it. Okay. Anjali Himali, Susan Con Bear, Amanda, Miranda Ramirez, Barbara M. Carly and Tanner. And Pupita wanted to know, in Pupita's words, what's the best way to handle an interaction with a rattlesnake? If you have an encounter, number one, you gotta chill, right? You gotta cool your jets, I imagine. What's the best way to handle it?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So if you see a rattlesnake out on a trail or in your local park, jump for joy. You're so lucky. I love it. Normalize seeing wildlife in nature. But no, like, if you come around a corner and you surprise one or you hear a rattling noise, it means you're too close, okay? So you just back away. So slowly back away. And then look for where the snake is. Because if you're 10ft away from a Rattlesnake. You're good.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And then look for it, take pictures of it, share it with your friends. Watch the snake for a while, because snakes can do cool things. Now, if it's nervous because you just scared it, it's probably just gonna wander away, but that's really all you need to do. And then, like I said, if there's a rattlesnake in your yard, call a local free snake relocation expert or a company that you can pay a small fee to and have them come and relocate that snake.

[Allie Ward]

Do you advocate for people keeping their headphones on, like transparent mode if they're hiking? Cause I know I've been hiking. I usually hike with headphones in, but they died once, and I heard a really cool rattle in the bushes. It sounded almost like a sprinkler. Like, you know, like. See, the first one was a rattlesnake, by the way. Also, hilariously, that YouTube clip with the rattlesnake sounds featured a thumbnail of a striking cobra. So critologists like Emily have further to go in the way of rattlesnake awareness. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yes, yes.

[Allie Ward]

But for hikers, safety, for hikers, eyes, ears out. What do you think?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, I mean, I advocate for not wearing headphones because you'll hear all the cool nature sounds. Really, the chances of someone stepping on a rattlesnake because they had headphones on, I think are relatively small.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And that's because people typically aren't hiking through tall grass. If you're hiking through tall grass, first of all, wear the right footwear so you don't have to worry about it. And secondly, yeah, in that case, wear headphones. But if you're on a trail and you're just aware and you're watching your surroundings and not talking to your friend, not looking at the ground, then you don't have to worry. People get really nervous about rattlesnakes. Like, they're just laying there in wait to bite you. They are totally not. In most cases, when people see one, they're like, oh, look, it's just ignoring me. It totally is.

[Allie Ward]

Okay, so when hiking boots are good. And tuck those pants into your socks if you would like to make it harder for ticks to drink on you. Now, for more on that, you can see our two parts acarology episode about ticks. And just please check your crevices after hikes. What about. This is my. This is my most burning question. A lot of people. Dr. Lena Carpenter, Janie Kins, Teresa Liu, Cornell Hallquist, first time question Asker, Magna Kasowska, Angela Borman, Marika Susan Conbear, Dinah Phillips and Patron Marika. Who asked? I'm a hiker, terrified of snakes, so of course I've had way too many close encounters with rattlesnakes. There's so much conflicting information out there. Do I suck it, tourniquet it, call for help and stay put, walk as far as I can, cut the limb off, build myself a coffin and pyramid out of sticks for my inevitable demise. And in Dinah Phillips's words, I've heard that you don't have to cut the bite or suck the venom out or any of those scary heroic actions, do you just get to the hospital first time question asker. But yeah, I always hear you gotta suck the venom out and spit it. That you are shaking your head as if that is a horrifying misconception. So clear it up for me.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Yeah, well, I don't know. We're in LA right now. That's kind of like a. It's a movie thing. It was only like in western movies that it ever worked. Yeah, it doesn't work. And all it's gonna do is introduce a wound and then maybe someone's nasty mouth bacteria. So no cutting and sucking, no tourniquets, no. For goodness sakes, people are now thinking tasing each other is a good idea. You can hear it all. All you need to do is take off any jewelry if there's constricting jewelry and then have someone else get you to the hospital as quick as possible. That's it.

[Allie Ward]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Don't do anything else. Do not put the limb down. Put it at heart level or above.

[Allie Ward]

Yes, you heard that right? Put the limb at heart level or above. And if you're like, I think that's backwards. It's not. And I emailed Emily to fact check this and she said yes. First aid recommendations for rattlesnake bites have changed over the years. And the data now show that in the extremely rare, almost fantast, improbable event that you ever get bitten by a rattlesnake, the pain management, swelling and bite outcomes are actually better when the victims keep their limb elevated above heart level. Because you don't want to keep the venom concentrated at the bite site, but rather letting it spread through the body where it can effectively be diluted is preferable. And Emily also said your life is going to be saved by the antivenom. So go to the hospital.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And then the most important thing to do is once you're there, is to be able to properly Advocate for the right medical care, because it changes a lot all the time. And some physicians, or this is true for a veterinarian, if it's for your dog, they went to their medical or veterinary school since the time that some of these modern recommendations have been in place. So national snakebite support can help people advocate for exactly the right kind of.

[Allie Ward]

Care, but also the likelihood that you're gonna get bitten. Tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Absolutely tiny. Think about the millions and millions and millions of people and, and many of those people out on trails every single day. Trust me, there's millions of rattlesnakes too. If you've ever been out walking around in the LA hills, you have walked by a ton of rattlesnakes.

[Allie Ward]

Ooh, I love it.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Tons of them. They're just really, really common. They're just not commonly seen. And then the statistics on the chances of dying from one are hilarious. They're so, so, so low that it's like five or six times more likely that somebody would die from, like, lightning strike or a dog bite. And then multiple times more than that, more likely you die falling off of a ladder.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So, yeah, if you want to point a finger at an animal responsible for human deaths, aim a tiny one at mosquitoes and learn more about them in our Colsedology episode, which is linked in the show notes.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

So rattlesnakes are not a threat. You know, rattlesnakes are only a threat if people are routinely working in the places where rattlesnakes are and are not using property for protective equipment. That's it.

[Allie Ward]

I imagine, too, especially in la, you typically have to drive to a trailhead. You can get smoked by a Mack truck going there. Rolling.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I know, I didn't even want to say that. I think that it's like 30,000 times or something more likely to die in an automobile accident than from a snake bite. And yet we engage in that risky behavior every day, a lot of us.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, yeah. Without even thinking about it.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

We don't hate our cars. We don't hate our dogs.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, we're not terrified of them the way one might be. What about snakes in the media? Lenny Olseth, Susan G. Storm Janganator, Lana Schuster and wemelly wanted to know if there are any glowing representations or egregious ones. Oh, and Erin Farley had a kind of a complex but an astute question, and that's if the theme song from the Good the Bad the Ugly plays every time a rattlesnake comes out in the Any pop culture that you wish that you could pop up in the middle of the movie or commercial or label and be like, no, that is incorrect.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Everything in snakes that is shown is incorrect. But I don't know, though. I mean, it doesn't really bother me that much because it's all just kind of silly. Usually it's campy, you know, like in Snakes on a Plane. It's not real. Or Anaconda. I loved that movie. It's hilarious. None of it's real. It's. The problem arises when people think it's real. And those don't tend to come from pop culture. They tend to come from maybe a nature documentary or a YouTuber who tries to make it look real when it's not. And the idea of the fierce rattlesnake rattling and striking, which is what a lot of people think of, that is coming from nature documentaries that are doing a really bad job, because that is not what rattlesnakes do. That, to me, is way more dangerous than pop culture.

[Allie Ward]

And when you say that's not what they do, like, what would you say they do do instead of what we're seeing?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They curl up like little cinnamon rolls and sit there and wait for rodents to run by and mostly ignore people. And the fact of the matter is that that does not get a lot of clicks on YouTube.

[Allie Ward]

Yep.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Although it should. And it's starting to. You know, our rattlesnake livestream project, Rattle Cam, is now got. You know, I don't know, we had like two and a half million views last year or something.

[Allie Ward]

That's amazing.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And it's a lot. You know, everyone sees the eagles feeding their birds. So cute, right?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, rattlesnakes now have their own one where we can watch all the mama rattlesnakes caring for their babies. And it's fascinating. Tons of people come on there and say, just watching these snakes kind of curling up and doing what snakes do is interesting. It's not boring. They don't have to be striking and being terrified and acting terrifying artificially to get people to be interested. Watching a natural rattlesnake, being natural is the cool thing. And we've brought that now into people's living rooms and in people's computers. So it's really cool. You have to check it out.

[Allie Ward]

How many typically chill in a den?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, this is at a rattlesnake den in Colorado that is called a Meg, and it's got hundreds of rattlesnakes at it.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, I love it. It's like a house party. But with piles of snakes. And the livestream was actually running on her nearby laptop screen out of the corner of my eye. It was like the soothing screensaver of just pit viper wall to wall.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

And so the students are actually, you know, it's a remotely pan tilt zoom controlled camera. So it's 24 hours a day. And right now they're going to bed in a little crevice together. And like we saw 28 snakes once pack into this little crevice. Babies.

[Allie Ward]

Does the camera know to follow the movement or is there someone with a joystick on the other end, like the Nautilus?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

There's someone controlling it, but it's being controlled remotely by our laptops here in California.

[Allie Ward]

So is someone on like the midnight watch?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

No, we have students running it from 8am to 8pm Mountain time. And then for the other 12 hours in the middle of the night, it's either sitting stationary or we have some of our volunteers who are night owls who will get on there and interact and zoom in.

[Allie Ward]

That's amazing.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

That's really cool.

[Allie Ward]

If I could be a ghost, one place I would want to go is a rattlesnake den. You know what I mean? If I could just not disturb them, if I could float in, if I could beam my consciousness, or I suppose just watch. I could just watch the live stream.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Well, yeah, watching the livestream is great. It's an equity issue. It allows people access to doing this. Because most rattlesnake dens are in places that people can't get to or they're hidden, you know, because we have to keep it secret for the health of the snakes. Other people will go and kill them. But you could go, you know, because rattlesnake dens are not like a thing you could walk into. Yeah, the crevices are really tiny. They go into the den is what you'll see is like the snakes curled up on the outside of it.

[Allie Ward]

I think they're such little cutie patooties.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

They're amazing.

[Allie Ward]

Hardest part about your job? I have a feeling it might be misconceptions about rattlesnakes. Perhaps.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I might have said that early on, but now I am obsessed with the right ways to fix those misconceptions. So as a scientist, it wasn't good enough for me to go to these outreach events and talk to people and not know how it impacted them. So now I actually have studies that I've done on which parts of what I'm saying impact people. And so we have a published study, for example, that people who identify as women tend to respond more to the notion of. Of rattlesnakes being good mothers and having families and friends. Whereas people who are in the older generations respond better to the concept of rattlesnakes doing things for us, controlling those rodents. So I kind of have learned now through actual studies how to change people's minds. And it's a challenge that I relish because I know that it saves rattlesnakes lives. And truthfully, in case people are out there rolling their eyes and going, this crazy person wanting to save rattlesnake life. Saving rattlesnakes lives is a safety issue for people too. What's good for rattlesnakes is good for people. Relocating rattlesnakes, they're gonna be there no matter what you want, no matter what you think about them, and living peacefully with them is the way to be safe. So, no, that's not the worst part of my job. The worst part of my job, I think, is the subset of people who are just mean spirited and who will try to get at you with, frankly, really stupid comments. They always tend to involve a. A hat band. I'm like, oh, yeah, I've never heard that one before. That's great. Thanks. But every March, when the Sweetwater Rattlesnake Roundup rolls around, I have a weekend of mourning because I know about all those snakes being tortured, and there's little I can do about it except for keep working, keep telling, keep spreading the word and hoping that people will change. People have been changing. I'm convinced that, on average, that people's opinions about rattlesnakes and frankly, all other unloved animals has been changing. And it's an important issue. If we can get people to change their minds about rattlesnakes, we can get people to change their minds about anything. It's a sociological issue. It's a fascinating psychological question, isn't it?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, it is. Another fascinating question from Raina and Whereisa Park. Who asked, would you discourage eating them because we should be protecting our scaly percussion pals?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I mean, people do eat rattlesnakes, but I will say that rattlesnakes are not that good of eating if people stay there. I've had it before. Someone. I was staying at a research station and someone ran over a big rattlesnake right in front of us. So we took the fresh body back and the chef cooked it for us. And it was a lot of ribs, Allie.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. A lot of spines.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

It wasn't that great. It wasn't that great.

[Allie Ward]

I think it's so interesting that I asked the worst thing about your job. And getting bitten by a rattlesnake is not one of those things. Just people understand that, that it's so much harder to see them maligned. What about the best thing? Is it when you see someone's mind changed?

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

That's incredible. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I mean, certainly the best thing I've ever done is this project Rattlecam, these live streams, because we can see it reaching so many people and it changing so many people's minds. And we have all these quotes we have of people who would say things like, I used to be horrified. I love this one person I used to watch an abject horror, and now I love them. This year being the year of the snake, there is a huge event going on that surrounds World Snake day, which is July 16, 2025, and that is called Snake Week, which me and Melissa Amorello and Christina Zedenik of Australia, we all are organizing it and it's gonna be around the world. There's gonna be events, many with live snakes that people can come out and see.

[Allie Ward]

I love it. This has been so wonderful. I love rattlesnakes. I will tell you. I think they're gorgeous and it's weird to be like, oh, I can't wait till I see another one. But I can't wait till I see another one.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I agree with you. It's true. I mean, there really is no substitute for seeing them in the wild. But I think that hearing some of these things, maybe watching them on the snake livestream, is a good preface for the main course. Yeah, get out there, see a snake, text me a photo of it. I love it.

[Allie Ward]

Put your shovels away.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

I know. No more shovels. Just call a friend, call a snake relocator and know that that snake is gonna go and keep taking care of its babies and eating those rotations out in the wild where it belongs.

[Allie Ward]

So rattle off not smart questions to smart people because honestly, maybe not enough people ask them. And now we've probably saved the life of a rat eating friend that we'll never meet. I hope this week gets you so excited for the first ever annual Snake Week, July 13th through 19th, 2025, you can check out snakeweek.org to learn about events online and in your area. 2025, it is the year of the snake, so do celebrate. So thank you so much to Dr. Emily Taylor for to finally meet up and for being such a friend to the friendless. Except now rattlesnakes have a lot of new friends and admirers. Thanks to you. And you can get some rattlesnakes in your eyes by checking out projectrattlecam.org where you can even join a live chat with a camera operator who will point out nostrils and give you cool facts in real time. I looked today and they have a message that says chat users have reached a conclusion that snakes are actually long catch cats. Project rattle cam on YouTube. I love it. Tell them Ologies sent you in the chat and tell a friend about it. We have so many more [e-mail] Ologies Chronologie, which is linked in the show notes alongside the charity of Emily's Choice, the Rattlesnake Conservancy. We've also linked that survey in case you'd like to submit some fun data about public rattlesnake opinion. And we've linked her two books, California Snakes and How to Find Them and California Lizards and How to Find Them in the show notes. She's also on Instagram, Nakymama and on blueskyliet and we'll link those in the show notes. We are at Ologies on Instagram and bluesky. We also have shorter kid friendly episodes called Smologies you can subscribe to for summer car rides full of G rated facts and stories. Those are linked in the show notes. We have ologies [e-mail] like T shirts and sweatshirts and totes and mugs. Thank you to Erin Talbert for admin in the Ologies podcast Facebook group Avileen Malik makes our professional transcripts. Noelle Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing den director and editor. Jake Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland keep all of our segments moving along smoothly. Nick Thorburn shook the beats of the theme music and if you stick around to the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this one is so dark, but I'm gonna tell you. Okay, so I've mentioned this before, but I had a grandma who was just terrible. And one time my cousins and I and my sisters were like playing some game and I forget what it was like charades or something. And it was, this is so bad. My grandma was so mean to everyone. My grandma was like straight up not a kind person. And I think my sister asked like name a way that grandma could die. And one of my cousins just went pit viper. And forever in my family when my grandma would do something mean, one of us would look at each other and go pit viper. And it's, it's not mean. Because we were like traumatized children, but pit vipers always have this association of, like, a terrible elder getting attacked by a snake. And now I know that snakes are better mothers than she was. So sorry, Mom. Mom's great grandma, not so much. Okay. I'm so sorry. That was so personal. Maybe I'll swap this out for a different one. Okay. Anyway, bye.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Bye.

[Allie Ward]

Pachydermatology, homeology, cryptozoology, Lithology, nanotechnology, meteorology, Olfactology, Mapology, cereology, selenology. I love snakes.

[Dr. Emily Taylor]

Really big fan of the snake, you know?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Tinks]

What's up, podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ostre, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, wherever you listen to podcasts, podcasts, and don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.

[Allie Ward]

Okay, one more secret for you. My garbage isn't stinky. If you're, like, impossible and why are you bragging? It's not me. It's because I have a mill food recycler. You can take your food scraps and your leftover food, your vegetable peelings, whatever. You walk over to the mill, you drop it in. It always reminds me of that scene at the end of Back to the Future where document just putting stuff in the car. It's like that, but for food scraps. You put it in there while you sleep, it dehydrates and churns them up. You can fill it for weeks and it doesn't smell. And it also keeps leftovers out of my garbage so that my garbage doesn't smell or get juicy, which is what you don't want your garbage to be. So it transforms your scraps into these nutrient rich grounds. They look like coffee grounds. You can put them in the garden, you can put them in your compost mill can even get them to a farm for you. There's no mess, there's no stress. And it keeps food waste out of the landfills so it can't create a ton of methane, which is a very potent greenhouse gas. So mill makes it easy to do something good. And you can get $75 [e-mail] ologies that's mill.com ologies.