Hyaenidology (HYENAS) with Christine Wilkinson

Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward: Hyaenidology (HYENAS) with Dr. Christine Wilkinson

Release Date: August 5, 2026
Host: Alie Ward
Guest: Dr. Christine Wilkinson, Conservation Scientist & Hyaenidologist

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the fascinating world of hyenas—creatures often misunderstood and maligned thanks to pop culture (looking at you, The Lion King), but truly remarkable in their biology, ecology, intelligence, and social structure. Alie Ward chats with Dr. Christine Wilkinson, a leading hyaenidologist, about what makes hyenas special: their evolutionary history, matrilineal societies, mythical reputations, gender-bending biology, and their roles as ecosystem heroes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What IS a Hyena?

• Basic Taxonomy & Relatives
  • Hyenas belong to the family Hyaenidae in the suborder Feliformia (more closely related to cats than dogs).
  • Four modern species: Spotted, Striped, Brown, and Aardwolf. Each is in its own genus.
  • “They may look like a dog, a bear, something completely undefinable, but they are feliforms—a chupacabra.” (Christine, 05:18)
  • Aardwolf: tiny, termite-eating, more primitive lineage; rest are robust “bone crushers” (scientifically accurate term).
  • Size ranges from small-and-spindly aardwolves (~20 lbs) to large, German shepherd-sized bone crushers (up to 120 lbs).

Evolutionary Origin & Adaptation ([06:43], [08:00])

• Originated in Miocene Eurasia (~23-5 million years ago), evolving from tree-dwelling to endurance runners as forests gave way to grasslands.
• Developed bone-crushing jaws to access marrow and survive competition with ancient canids.
• “We had a split where...[hyenas] started to evolve a way to get more from the prey—to actually eat the bone marrow, crush the bones and be able to use them...” (Christine, 07:01)

Hyenas vs. Public Perception

• Long persecuted and demonized in culture (e.g., associated with witchcraft, depicted as villains in The Lion King).
• In reality, they’re apex predators, not just scavengers, and often lose kills to lions (the opposite of their Disney portrayal).
• “Disney did not do spotted hyenas any favors. I would argue, probably fueled actual persecution.” (Christine, 09:14)
• “The movie was written by a lion, honestly. Clearly.” (Christine, 72:00)

Species Spotlight

Spotted Hyena:

• Best known, largest, formidable bone-crusher, highly social, matrilineal society.
• “Clans can be...up to 80, sometimes even larger.” (Christine, 30:26)
• “They can outperform chimpanzees on some problem-solving tests.” (Christine, 30:26)
• Unique vocalizations (famous “whoop” and “laugh”)—the laugh signals anxiety or excitement during social tension, not mockery. ([18:21], [38:07])

Aardwolf:

• Strictly termite eater (up to 300,000/night), tiny, nubby teeth, big tongue for lapping.
• “The aardwolf is pretty small, little spindly guy...like a medium dog, very spindly.” (Christine, 14:18)

Brown & Striped Hyena:

• Both are scavengers with some hunting ability; Brown hyena known for eating seal pups along the Namibian coast.
• “Brown hyena...really long and shaggy... you’ll never guess this, but it’s brown.” (Christine, 17:04)

Life & Research in the Field ([19:40], [22:00])

• Methods include GPS collars, camera traps, participatory community work.
• Field “glamour”: graduate school “Suzuki Samurai” vs. recent upgrade to a Toyota Hilux for moving carcasses.
• The reality of working with rotting meat in tough conditions and coexisting with apex predators in multi-use landscapes.

Social System & Matrilineality ([41:16], [55:06])

• Matrilineal dominance:
  • Female-led clans, with rank passed from mothers (especially to youngest daughter).
  • “All the females in the clan are ranked more highly than all the males for spotties.” (Christine, 41:16)
• Male hyenas are automatically the lowest ranked upon joining a new clan, and eventually leave their natal group.

The Notorious "Pseudo-Penis" ([49:21], [52:54])

• Only spotted hyenas have this feature: the female’s clitoris is as large as the male’s penis, is erectile, and serves as the birth canal and for urination and copulation.
• “They have sex, pee, and give birth through their clitoris.” (Christine, 50:08)
• Result: first births risk fatal tearing for mother and high mortality for first cubs (~60% die).
• Sexual coercion is impossible; females control all mating.
• Both sexes have a “scrotum” (males: testicles; females: empty, “pseudosclerotum”).

Vocalizations ([18:21], [38:07])

• Whoop: long-distance contact call
• Laugh: displays anxiety/excitement during high-tension feeding times or conflict—not a sign of mockery toward humans

Diet, Digestion, & Ecological Role ([34:52], [64:50], [73:07])

• True dietary generalists—eat anything from elephants to maple syrup and shoes.
• Super acidic stomach can fully digest bones; “endpoints” for many diseases, including rabies (build immunity rapidly).
• Ecological cleaning: removing carcasses limits disease spread for both people and livestock.
• “If you removed hyenas from the landscape...there would be a ton more disease.” (Christine, 73:07)

Habitat & Dens ([66:04], [68:05])

• Live in wide variety of habitats (savanna, desert, even urban areas).
• Dens (mostly repurposed from warthogs)—used primarily for cubs; natal den for births, then move to communal dens.
• Can smell dens by a distinctive musky odor (Alie’s favorite anecdote).

Human-Wildlife Conflict ([29:39], [76:34])

• Major conflicts center on hyenas preying on livestock.
• Negative perceptions can make coexistence challenging.
• Dr. Wilkinson attempts to change local attitudes with humor and community engagement, reframing “Mafisi” (Swahili for hyena, also slang for “fuckboy”) as a badge of pride for her research team and local collaborators.

Conservation & Coexistence ([75:56])

• Hyenas are adaptable but face anthropogenic threats: habitat encroachment, retaliation killing, poisoning.
• Supporting coexistence and conservation organizations, combating negative myths, and boosting positive public awareness are all crucial.
• “Can you love them? Yes, love them today. Permission granted.” (Christine, 75:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On public perception:
  “Disney did not do spotted hyenas any favors. I would argue, probably fueled actual persecution.” (Christine, 09:14)
• On evolutionary adaptation:
  “They may look like a dog, a bear, something completely undefinable, but they are feliformes, a chupacabra.” (Christine, 05:18)
• On fieldwork glamour:
  “Glamorous field life—often, I spend time at rotting carcasses, like watching behavior...I’m just like, I don’t understand why I’m so hungry.” (Christine, 23:35)
• On reproductive biology:
  “They have sex, pee, and give birth through their clitoris.” (Christine, 50:08)
• On matrilineal society:
  “All the females in the clan are ranked more highly than all the males...” (Christine, 41:16)
• On coexistence:
  “The answer to 'are they cute little misunderstood weirdos or are they dangerous?' is...yes. They're not out to get you, but they're an opportunistic apex predator.” (Christine, 71:01)
• On resilience & the future:
  "Hopefully there will be more and more [hyena researchers]." (Christine, 79:48)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 04:41: Taxonomy—Hyenas are feliforms (cats, not dogs)
• 05:34–06:33: The four living hyena species: comparisons & etymology
• 06:43–08:11: Hyenas’ evolutionary shift to bone crushers
• 09:14: The Lion King’s influence on hyena persecution
• 18:21: Hyena vocalizations: whooping & laughing explained
• 19:40: How Dr. Wilkinson and others study hyenas (fieldwork methods)
• 25:06: Hyena body shape & function—endurance running
• 29:39: Human-hyena conflict origins & cultural friction
• 41:16: Matrilineal social structure in spotted hyenas
• 49:21–53:45: The (in)famous pseudo-penis & reproductive challenges
• 64:50: Digestion of bones—acidic stomach, disease resistance
• 73:07: Hyenas as ecosystem cleaners
• 75:56: Conservation, how to help, and the future

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Listener Q&A Highlights

• Female pseudo-penis: Only present in spotted hyenas; results from high androgen exposure in utero.
• How to sex a hyena: Look for the pink birth scar on the female’s clitoris, two teats, or check for a pseudosclerotum (empty in females).
• Do hyenas laugh at people?: No. Laugh indicates social anxiety during tension, not mockery.
• Do they play/groom?: Yes—especially spotted hyenas, which display lots of feline-like play and social grooming.
• Danger to humans?: Opportunistic and potentially dangerous, but direct attacks are rare.
• Can you help them?: Yes; support organizations fostering coexistence and accurate science communication.

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Final Thoughts & Call to Action

Dr. Wilkinson encourages us to view hyenas with nuance and appreciation. They’re not villains; they are key players in healthy ecosystems, equipped with bizarre but brilliant biology, intelligence rivaling primates, and compelling social complexity. To support them, she urges listeners to spread positive messages, support coexistence programs, and inject compassion and humor into wildlife advocacy.

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Resources & Further Links

• Dr. Christine Wilkinson: scrappynaturalist.com
• Black Mammalogist Week: blackmammalogists.com
• Smallogies (Ologies for Kids): Find in your podcast app
• Full Research Compilation: alieward.com/ologies/hyaenidology (see show notes for more)

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Memorable Closing Quote

“So ask learned people absurdist questions, because hyenas—they deserve to be known. And now we know them.”
(Alie Ward, 80:02)

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For additional fascinating animal facts, Ologies swag, and to support future science communication, visit ologiesmerch.com and become a patron at patreon.com/ologies.

Transcript

[A]

Oh, hey, it's the guy in overalls and no shirt. Alie ward. And I'm glad you're here every minute of this episode as a gift. So I asked around to some past Ologies guests. I was like, who are you excited about in science right now? And within like five minutes, I got two texts telling me that I needed to meet this specific ologist, like asap. A conservation scientist, a carnivore, ecologist, an urban ecologist. They work in LA. They, they got their bachelor's at Cornell, a Ph.D. at UC Berkeley. They're now an assistant curator of community science at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. They're the co chair also of the hyena specialist group. They're also a National Geographic explorer. They're also a PBS science communicator and a co founder of the beloved black mammalogist Week. I moseyed over to the museum as fast as I could and I was like, please let me talk to you. So in this episode we're gonna chat about everything from hyenas in the media or what they're eating, Are they matriarchal? We're gonna talk about hormones, why the ladies have a penis, pretty much so much more. But first, let's thank the patrons of the show for supporting us from the beginning for as little as a dollar a month via patreon.com ologies and for submitting so many great questions every week. Thank you to everyone out there wearing ologies merch from ologiesmerch.com thanks to everyone spreading the word about our spinoff show, which is smallogies. Those are shorter classroom safe episodes of Ologies. They're in their very own podcast feed. They're linked in the show notes and s m o l o g I e s smologies. Also thanks to everyone who leaves reviews for the show. They help us so much. I read em all and I prove it with a recent one like this one from Liselle23. And Liselle wrote this show is like browsing the old Blockbuster video stores and not knowing if I'm gonna like the video. But surprise, I always like the episodes. Liselle23, thank you for that. I like you and I like sponsors of the show who make it possible to donate to a cause of the ologist choosing every week. Oh, it's summer. People are getting out of town, they're visiting family, they're seeing the sights. And I love it. One thing I don't love is showing up somewhere that does not deliver and that is where vrbo removes the guesswork. Their loved by guest filter lists their top rated vacation rentals. But the premier host filter ultimate travel hack. These are the hosts delivering creme de la creme experience. Near perfect acceptance rates, zero cancellations, and just above and beyond reviews. So when you show up, you know exactly, exactly what you're getting. Book today on the Vrbo app. If you know, you'verbo terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

via virtual prepaid guard card. Typically takes 15 days after rebate, submission price guarantee on Talk text and 5G data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. All right. Okay, let's get into it. Hyena. It's an ancient Greek word for pig. It's in the feminine form. So it's the study of animals that are called lady swine, even though they are not. So sit tight. Let's talk about the lion king. So, pseudo penises, dining with lions, tongue bumps, termite poisons, lawsuits, bristlebacks, tiny heads, big teeth, animation errors, bumping around through the bush on a tiny jeep thing, sniffing out hyenas, human hyena interactions, cats versus dogs, and why these animals have been robbed of respect and denied the devotion they so deserve. With researcher, carnivore, ecologist, and hyaenidologist, Dr. Christine Wilkinson.

[B]

My name is Christine Wilkinson and I use she pronouns.

[A]

I called you Dr. Wilkinson when I walked up and you jump scared.

[B]

Yes, technically, that's my name as well, Doctor. A woman of many names.

[A]

I was going to chat with you about coyotes or hyenas. You're good at both of them. And that was one of the harder decisions I've had to make in the history of ologies is which do I talk to you about? So we're going hyenas because how often do you get to meet a hyena?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

They're underserved.

[A]

And a canid.

[B]

They are a feliform.

[A]

What the Already?

[B]

What? The feliform already.

[A]

I'm like, I'm out of my depth.

[B]

Shall I go into it? Yes, please do. They are in feliformia, which is the cat suborder. So they are more closely related to cats than to dogs. Dogs are in Caniformia. I know, so what Hyena Day, which is the hyena family, is closely related to things like mongooses, et cetera, civets, et cetera. So they are. They may look like a dog, a bear, something completely undefinable, but they are feliformes, a chupacabra.

[A]

At times it's interesting because they don't look like a cat at all, but they definitely look like a dog that you're like, what kind of dog is that? And you just can't figure it out. Okay, how big is a hyena? And I'm sure they range based on species, right?

[B]

Yes, they do. So there are four species living in Hyena day, although there have been up to maybe 100 throughout time. So there are four species. There's the spotted hyena, which most people know about. There's the striped hyena, there's the brown hyena, and there's the aardwolf, which is the wild card of the four.

[A]

All the same genus or.

[B]

No, they're all in the same family, Hyaenidae. Well, actually now they're all four in different genii as well, Gene genuses really.

[A]

They're each in their own genus.

[B]

But the striped and the brown used to be in the same genus, Hyena, which really original H Y A E N A so the striped is hyena hyena. The brown is actually Parahyena brunea. I used to be hyena brunea. The spotted is Crocoda crocoda. And I know they make it really easy for a hyena hyena. And then the aardwolf is Pratellis cristata. And it's the one that is very much the least related to the other three.

[A]

What do you think happened to the other 96 in time? Because they seem like they would absolutely destroy. Like they seem like they'd kick ass forever.

[B]

I know, right? So hyenas began to evolve in the jungles of the Miocene Eurasia.

[A]

So The Miocene was 23 to 5.3 million years ago, and early, early Afro Arabia smashed into Eurasia.

[B]

And a lot of things in that time were arboreal because there were a lot of trees around in the jungles, but these animals were not. They started to evolve, kind of getting bigger and bigger, becoming more and more able to do things like long distance running. And there were fewer trees, there were more open spaces, more grasslands, more shrublands. And so we had a split where they started out, sort of the ancient lineage of hyenas that are closer to the aardwolf, that are not like these big, massive jawed bone crushing hyenas that you see in spotted, striped and brown. And then these bone crushing hyenas started to evolve like 14 or so, maybe a little bit longer million years ago because they were competing with canids for sort of that niche of running around to get your prey and running in these groups to get prey. And so they needed to evolve a way to get more from the prey to be able to actually eat the bone marrow, crush the bones and be able to use them.

[A]

So bone crushing, is that a term that scientists use or is that just like a descriptor that's more casual? Because a bone crusher doesn't go harder than that.

[B]

It's a scientific term. Is it really? Yeah. So like this group of hyenas that includes the three that I mentioned.

[A]

So these are the striped hyena, the brown hyena and the spotted hyena are

[B]

in the bone crushing lineage. That's.

[A]

So that is such an underrated term.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The fact that we don't just call them bone crushers is a huge disservice to the brand.

[B]

Yeah. Although the brand, I must say, maybe wouldn't benefit from more attention to the bone crushing abilities.

[A]

You mentioned that they haven't always been very popular.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Have we seen, going from way back to now, have human beings been like, I don't think so. Not in my backyard, kind of. And tried to kill them off.

[B]

I do know that they probably did prey on humans at some points from some of the cave data they have. But these days there are a lot of different cultural views on hyenas. Disney did not do spotted hyenas any favors.

[A]

I was going to ask about that.

[B]

Will you knock it off? Well, he started it.

[A]

Look at you guys.

[B]

No wonder we're dangling at the bottom of the food chain. Man, I hate dangling. Yeah, yeah. Like I would argue, probably fueled actual persecution of hyenas. But persecution was already happening and continues to happen. In some places places, hyenas are associated with witchcraft, I should say, just to give you the lay down spot. Hyenas, apex predators also do a lot of scavenging.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But they actually compete with lions, contrary to what the Lion King really showed you. And in some places, the lions are the ones stealing their kills, not the other way around. No. Yes. So they're bone crushing, but they're also hunters and they have a whole bunch of Interesting social dynamics. The striped hyena is a bone crusher that occasionally hunts like very small prey. The largest would be like the baby of an ungulate, but they usually scavenge and then the brown hyena usually scavenges with the exception of they do kill seal pups on the Namibian coast. Skeleton coast.

[A]

There's seal pups over there.

[B]

Yeah, it's like a desert with a ocean. What? Yeah, it's very strange.

[A]

Just trotting off to the beach, nabbing a pup and then heading back into the desert.

[B]

It's weird.

[A]

Wow, that sounds like a mishmash of AI that doesn't know what it's talking about, but it's real.

[B]

Yeah, so those are, you know, they bone crush and then aardwolves actually only eat termites for the most part.

[A]

They only eat. So is that, are they aardvarks and aard wolves? Is aard meaning termite?

[B]

That is such a good question. Wait, I feel like I knew the

[A]

answer to this question.

[B]

I think the answer is no. But why Arduino? I don't know.

[A]

There's got to be some good etymology in there. I'll look it up. Yeah, this is where an aside will go because aardvark and aardwolf, hey, here we are. So in Afrikaans, this is a language derived from Dutch colonizers. Aardvark means earth pig and ardwulf means earth wolf. So they're little dirt doggies, but really closer to soil kitties really. And these brush colored tiger striped little cuties, they have a long ass neck, looks absolutely bonkers. They got a tiny little head with bald looking snout and a tongue that is polka dotted with these raised bumps. And do not, don't look up a fuzzy four pound giant eared aardwolf cub unless you are in a safe spot to wail about never getting to cuddle one. I'm not gonna recover from looking at a picture of them. So they're only eating termite. So they're just having to get, I imagine a lot of biomass to sustain a dog like creature, right?

[B]

Yeah. I think your adult aardwolf can eat like 300,000 termites a night.

[A]

How are the termites dealing with that?

[B]

They don't eat termites inside of the mounds.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They eat them just like the ones that are outside are on it. And they have a sticky tongue they lap it up with. Some people used to think that they ate carcasses or that kind of thing, but actually it's been shown they're eating the insects off of the carcass. So mostly that I think there's only ever been one case that's been documented of an aardwolf killing a goose. And I don't really understand how it did that or how it ate it because it doesn't have the right teeth for it.

[A]

What kind of teeth does it have?

[B]

Just little, like, nubs. I mean, it has its canines and stuff for, like, display and stuff like that and biting, but, like, it doesn't need teeth. It just like, swallows the termites.

[A]

So it's wild to me that some of them are bone crushers and others have nubbins to eat, like worms. You know what I mean? Little wormy creatures just popping them. Like Rice Krispies.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I looked up the goose incident and, yeah, you can get deep into the paper a novel record of aardwolf feeding behavior which alleges that an aardwolf killed two captive geese at a South African wildlife preserve and at 0700 hours on the 10th of June, 2012. And like an urban legend made to scare teenagers, the paper details that the weather was clear and bright and that the previous evening coincided with the first frost of the winter. The aardwolf was able to gain access via the gap between the gate and the fence. And a worker saw with her own eyes that the aardwolf had, quote, already killed and partially eaten one adult goose and had the head of a second in its mouth, appearing to be suffocating it. However, I want to note that compared to this single indictment on paper, we have way more eyewitness reports of the 2016 clown sightings. I motion for aardwolf exoneration. Not enough evidence and only one witness testimony. Come on. So what about their size and, like, body shape? Do they range among the four? Like, are some of them like a Pomeranian and some are like a malamute?

[B]

Yes, especially the bone crushers versus the aardwolf. So the aardwolf is pretty small, little spindly guy. It's like 20 something pounds or maybe a little bit more. Like something quite small. Not a large dog size, maybe a medium dog, very spindly. Doesn't need a lot of power in that jaw. Right. So like, it doesn't have the robust musculature and stuff and everything that you need on your skull for that. They get bigger looking when they are threatened by something. They'll, like, raise their mane on the back and look all cute and fluffy.

[A]

Is it kind of spiky? Is it really thick guard hairs? That can bristle.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they kind of bristle. And actually, I have only ever touched spotted hyenas, but I can tell you that, like, a spotted hyena has much coarser hair than a lion or a coyote or a bobcat or something like that.

[A]

Ooh. Any idea why?

[B]

No. This was literally a question I was asked the other day, and I was like, I have no effing clue, actually. I'm like, I wonder if anyone studied that. And I doubt it because, like, people don't study hyenas as much as they should.

[A]

Are there a lot of hyena scientists? Are there a couple of you?

[B]

There are more than you think. A lot fewer than there should be. There we have so, like, dedicated hyena researchers. Gosh, I think I could probably not tell you more than 15.

[A]

Oh, that's so nice.

[B]

Maybe 20.

[A]

That's so cool. Yeah, you could fit that in a small bus.

[B]

You know, you could fit it in an aardwolf's tummy.

[A]

You could put it in an aardwolf's tummy. Okay, so size wise, aardwolves are the littlest. So they have guard hairs, they got nubbin teeth. They're lapping up bugs, eating bugs.

[B]

They have five toes on their front paws. And I'm not really sure why, except that they're more primitive, like from the more primitive lineage. And they didn't get rid of the other toes. They look really similar to striped hyenas, except they're a lot smaller and spindlier. They're easy to tell apart. So striped hyenas look almost the same as an aardwolf, just bigger, slightly lighter in color, much more robust skull, getting up to like 120 pounds.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Okay, like, there's a range there, maybe £100.

[A]

It's no joke. Okay, so in aardwolf, remember, those are the bug eaters. They're about the size and kind of the shape of a whippet. Whereas the three species of bone crushers, the striped, the spotted and the brown hyenas, those are in size like a German shepherd up to a Bernese mountain dog, but they have a spiky ridge of fur along their back. They are not something that would sleep in your bed.

[B]

Brown hyenas, around the same, both brown and striped, have like these long sort of fur on their backs. Brown is really long and shaggy. Brown hyenas, you'll never guess this, but it's brown.

[A]

Oh, whoa.

[B]

Really? The striped one is striped.

[A]

Okay, wait.

[B]

And what spotted is, well, it's spotted.

[A]

I'm gonna just jot that down cause I'm gonna forget.

[B]

Very creative ways to tell them apart.

[A]

What's with the back crest? Like why do they look like javelinas? Why do some of them have like a shoulder breast, you know?

[B]

Well, I know for the aardolf, they extend that mane to like look bigger when they feel threatened. Okay. I would put money on striped hyenas doing that to some extent, but I've never seen it and I don't know the answer.

[A]

How is a lot of the information gathered? Is it mostly camera traps? How typically these days do people study or count them?

[B]

So camera traps are the most reliable. Doing things like point counts really aren't necessarily that reliable, especially for a spotted hyena where these animals can be really cryptic. So what people used to do and to some extent still do is call ins for spotted hyenas because they have all these calls you can use. What. Which is also how we capture them when we put GPS collars on them. What kind of calls would you like me to do? The most common one you'll hear.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The most common one is called the whoop because it sounds like whoop. So it's like this.

[A]

That's gotta freak people out if you've never heard that.

[B]

Yeah. So at night that's what you hear. It's a long distance call. It's the thing where they're kind of like, I'm here, are you here? Or like you'll hear it around if there's something that they're going to try to do together or like something that's being hunted maybe. And it's what you hear all night. It's very comforting to me, honestly.

[A]

It sounds beautiful.

[B]

And the babies, sometimes they can't whoop properly. So it'll be like this

[A]

like a voice crack. Yeah, just like a 13 year old boy in a choir.

[B]

Exactly. It's very sweet. So you can call them in. The nice thing about spotted and striped, and I'm sure for aardwolf too, but I'm not, I don't really know, is that they each have an individual pattern, like a fingerprint really, that you can tell them apart from their fur. Yeah, the spots or the stripes. Some programs, like the spotted hyena program in the Maasai Mara in Kenya, have been studying hyenas and their spot patterns and their social ranks and all sorts of other things about them for like over 30 years. And so like those research associates, they learn all the spot patterns and they just be like, oh, that's so and so, so and so. So and so. Just like such a niche. Wonderful skill set. Yeah.

[A]

To be able to recognize a hyena from a. A pattern at a distance. Yeah, it's like, is second nature. But have you ever gotten to go out and do field research?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is that like?

[B]

So I work a lot on spotted hyenas and also spotted hyenas in relation to people and how we're interacting with each other. So I use a couple of different methods for my research on the hyenas. One is GPS collars to look at their movement at really fine scales. One is camera trapping. I also do a lot of community participatory work to understand more about how people are interacting with these animals. And so what does it look like to study hyenas? It depends. So I work in two protected areas, but one of them is also a livestock ranch that has, like 6,000 head of cattle, sheep, and goats, as well as being a conservancy.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And it's right across the street from a fully protected fenced national park. And so it's like a natural contrast. So there's hyenas in both, but they act very different from each other. How? Like, the ones in the conservancy used to be persecuted and also still get rightfully hazed away from the livestock. So they're very skittish of people.

[A]

So the ones in the conservancy, which is on privately owned land, are more freaked out because they're used to getting yelled at for eating someone's goat.

[B]

Whereas the ones in the park, you can observe for longer periods of crepuscular time. So longer periods in the morning and evening and not just at night, because they're just chill and they haven't had that interaction with people. Oh, I also do observations. So, like, if I find a den, I know that they like to come to those dens in the morning and in the evening, and they tend to congregate more there. So I might spend time at a den from like, right before dawn to, like an hour after dawn. And that's especially possible at a place like in the national park, where they put their dens kind of anywhere in the open versus the ones in the conservancy that will tend to, but not always, hide their dens or put them in places where I really have to work hard to get to them and have very hilarious field experiences trying to do that.

[A]

How do you find them? I mean, how do you get to them? Are you in some sort of ATV or No.

[B]

Cause I value my limbs.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say those things are death traps. Are you in a Land Rover situation?

[B]

I wish I could afford a Land Rover.

[A]

I was gonna say those seem also huge.

[B]

I've had a recent come up due to a bunch of donations where I've moved from my Suzuki Samurai. Do you know those cars?

[A]

I love a Suzuki Samurai.

[B]

They're so good for many things and so horrible for many things.

[A]

Yeah, they tip a lot from what I understand.

[B]

Yeah, I haven't tipped yet, but if I were able, if I were going to tip, I could probably lift it up, which is helpful.

[A]

They're so little and cute.

[B]

They're little. If they fall in a hole, you'll be in the hole, which is a problem. But if like there's mud, it's like light enough for you to drive yourself out of it.

[A]

Golf cart with doors.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I can, I have very long arms so I can reach everything in my car when I'm in the Samurai. So that's what I could afford in grad school. And now we got a bunch of donations and we just got the project Toyota Hilux, like for cedar truck, which will be helpful for lugging carcasses around and stuff.

[A]

What kind of carcasses?

[B]

Hyena carcasses or like prey carcasses for catching hyenas or for doing this carcass study that we're doing. The last time we were trying to catch hyenas, we were taking collars off of them because I couldn't afford the collars at the drop offs. I still can't. But I was gifted hundreds of pounds of rotting cow meat because the fridges went off at the conservancy, which has livestock just by happenstance. It was awesome. I normally don't have bait and I got all this cow meat. But we were in my friend's and colleagues Prado, which is an enclosed space and that's where we stored it in the 110 degree heat for five days. And it was very dusty. So like often when we would drive around, we would close the windows and it was like a, you know, glamorous field life that everyone thinks that I lead. I'm also, by the way, I don't eat meat, so.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But carcasses, honestly, like the smell of a rotting carcass weirdly makes me hungry.

[A]

No. How is that?

[B]

Yeah. And I spend a lot of time at rotting carcasses, like watching behavior. And I'm just like, I don't understand why I'm so hungry. All of A sudden, I'll be in the waft of rot, and I'll be like, I need to eat a snack while you guys are eating a snack.

[A]

That is like, a whole separate field of neuroscience. Like, they need to put you in an MRI and pipe that in and figure out, like, what part of your brain, because it seems like it would be disgusting and repulsive. But, you know, we have a really big rotting warehouse in LA right now, the fire. And I'm just thinking, like, there's so much.

[B]

You think I should go sit next to it?

[A]

It's such a shame that that's not being trucked around in a Hilux right now.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You know, they would love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you mentioned that some of them that they scavenge and they hunt. Do they have just really good senses of smell where they can catch a whiff?

[B]

Yeah, they've got excellent smell. They also have excellent senses of hearing. They're able to also, like, run sort of long distances for a long time, which is why they have that shape, by the way.

[A]

Really? Okay. Because it's almost like their hips go down in the back. Right. Like a German shepherd.

[B]

Let's look at the stuffy.

[A]

Dr. Wilkinson brandished a small stuffed animal hyena as a demonstration tool. Oh, I love you, Ms. Stuffy. They kind of look like those dogs with short spine syndrome, you know, like, it. Absolutely. It goes up like a line graphic from the butt to the head. So why are the back legs just straight up shorter?

[B]

Yes, they are. They're shorter than the front legs. And so all of that shape lets them be more efficient at running long distances without running out of energy, basically.

[A]

So it's like a toe strike instead of a heel strike. Like, they strike with their front paws, and then they catch up with the back a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, if you just compare them to something like a cheetah, that's, like, very lithe, very skinny, very symmetrical. They're built for short distance, extreme bursts of speed, whereas these guys are more like endurance runners.

[A]

Speaking of Endurance, Dr. Wilkinson has been studying applied ecology for nearly two decades, which is nearly two decades longer than I have known anything about a hyena. How did you get into it if there's only a few dozen, really, in the world? How did you become a hyenidologist? Which is so cool. How did you fall into that niche?

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So I actually grew up in New York City to spend my childhood in New York City. And I was really into all the animals that were able to live alongside us. So, like, the rats, which I call our puppies, were, like, my favorite thing.

[A]

I love rats.

[B]

They're so cute and so large. And like, I liked the cockroaches. I liked the pigeons. I still love pigeons. And I was always sort of pretending like, I had my own show about urban, scrappy animals. And so I think I always had a sort of a thing for, like, the common animal that takes what we throw at it and survives and or thrives anyway, just to start with. But then how did I end up on hyenas? I ended up studying abroad in Kenya and Tanzania, in college, in undergrad, partially because I loved and was obsessed with wildlife, and partially because as a half black person, I was like, I would love to go somewhere where there are more black people and, like, learn more about whatever. Like, I come from slave ancestry, so I didn't know where my people had come from. And then I did the DNA test later and it was like, everywhere. So, anyway, anyway, I went to Kenya, Tanzania. Who knows if I'm from there? I don't know. And went there with this expectation of studying wildlife. And I was a really shy person growing up, too, for most of my childhood. And that's, like, another thing. I was, like, using wildlife as an escape, I think, and really, like, not super into people at all, which is, like, very funny, listeners. I am the curator of community science. So, anyway, when I first went to Kenya, Tanzania, it was just a couple of weeks in when I was hearing from people like, listen, if a person kills a lion, the government will be here in two days to arrest that person. And if a lion kills a person, we may never see any acknowledgement or compensation. But that was what really tipped me off and was one of many catalysts that made me realize that I really need to be thinking about people in our relationships with wildlife and about communities. So that really catalyzed me to wanting to work on this issue of human wildlife conflict and coexistence and step away from just being a wildlife nerd. So that's what galvanized my desire to do a PhD was more like an applied reason. And like, PhD gives you enough time and often will pay you if you teach or something, or if you get a fellowship so you don't have to pay for it yourself. Because I grew up pretty poor and didn't want to do a master's, which you had to pay for, blah, blah. So I wanted to do the PhD in a way that would be helpful to communities as well. Right. So we had a lot of anecdotal reports and like, sort of social surveys that were like, hyenas are causing the most trouble. But a lot of the money and a lot of the ecological surveys and like, or studies were about lions and leopards and like, sort of the big pretty kitties of the. Of the world and wolves and whatever. So I was kind of getting curious about hyenas. Like, why is it that we haven't studied how they interact with people very much? Like, really at all. And hyenas, like, have. Absolutely. I think they're one of the most polarizing animals in the world. Almost equivalent, but not quite to coyotes, actually, which is why I study coyotes as well. Love them, but people, like, really hate spotted hyenas to some extent. Striped like brown isn't as volatile, but still not liked very much. And when you think about conflict, coexistence, you have to think about perceptions first. So that's kind of how I got into it.

[A]

When you talk about causing trouble, Capital C, capital T. When they're causing trouble, does that mean they're eating someone's poodle? Does that mean they're taking out half a herd of cattle? Like their garbage cans are getting spilled over? What kind of trouble are we talking about? Why are people so mad at them?

[B]

People are mad at them for a lot of reasons. Okay, so people are mad at them for some justifiable reasons as well as some that are more sort of myths and misconceptions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One, they like to eat livestock if they can manage. Like, they are opportunistic hunters, scavengers, et cetera. They can hunt solo or in pairs or in a group. A big, huge group. They can take down huge prey, like even African Cape buffalo.

[A]

Oh, my God. Scavengers. But as we can see, they can hunt and bring down prey far bigger than themselves by using the strategy of the pack. First, they separate the mother buffalo and her calf from the herd. The Cape buffalo is a large, aggressive animal. So the hyenas are taking a big risk.

[B]

Yeah, like they can take them down. I mean, it's not easy, but, like, a huge group can come and do that. Clans can be, you know, up to 80, sometimes even larger. That's like pushing it. But, like, they can be relatively large or they can be smaller. Right. So they can do damage. And if your livestock are not protected or spotted hyenas are also very intelligent. They can outperform chimpanzees on some problem solving tests. Oh, yes. Which is the study that they did was at UC Berkeley, which is a whole other story. They had a hyena clan there at uc. Oh, they had a hyena clan at UC Berkeley.

[A]

At UC Berkeley.

[B]

At UC Berkeley. In the hills. Where?

[A]

In the hills?

[B]

Yeah, like, not just wandering around, but, like, at a facility.

[A]

At a facility in the hills.

[B]

Yeah. Until 2013. For, like, a couple decades. No, because back in the day, you could just, like, take hyena cubs out of Kenya. Now I can't even take a piece of poop out of Kenya without, like, a million miles of paperwork, so I don't even try.

[A]

It seems like there would be a lot of NIMBYs also about that being like, a whole, like, a clan of hyenas. I used to live in the Bay Area, so I'm like, man, I never.

[B]

I mean, it's a good question. Like, I actually would love to look back at, like, news articles and things like that.

[A]

Yeah, no, I've. Trust me, there's gonna be some microfiche happening in an aside over here. That's nuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's just take a dip into the 2024 Berkeley Science Review article. Hyenas in the Hills, Exploring Berkeley's unusual field station. So this is a 29 acre spot in the Northern California Berkeley hills. And about 20 spotted hyenas, which were imported from Kenya, lived there for roughly 30 years. For decades, a wealth of valuable data about bone chomping and laughter and endocrinology emerged. But that wealth did run out and funding ceased in 2014. It forced the research to end, and then the hyenas had to be dispersed to various places, including Disney's Animal Kingdom in Florida. They're like, I guess I'm going to retire in Florida now. Speaking of Disney. Yes. Animators visited this research station to sketch and study the movements of hyenas. They promised scientists that these misunderstood little beasts would be portrayed in a good light. And then when the movie came out and hyenas were foot soldiers for a genocide, the hyena ologists were like, wow, rat bastards, all of you. Why did you do that? So much so that one unnamed scientist related to the project tried to sue Disney for defamation. But hyenas are no match for the mouse. But the hyena community does agree that at least interest in hyenas has gotten a boost for decades. Who got the last laugh? Hyenas. Because the researchers forgot to give a heads up to the animators that these captive UC Berkeley spotted hyenas had filed down canines. So the smiles of the hyenas in the Lion King are inaccurate. In reality, the giggles are Far more pointed.

[B]

So maybe one or two of them ended up at Oakland Zoo. They only live up to a couple decades in the wild and maybe, like, a bit longer in captivity.

[A]

Oh, that's pretty good.

[B]

If they're lucky, maybe 10 to 20 years in the wild, if possible.

[A]

Okay, so they can take down water buffalo. They can take down maybe livestock.

[B]

So, yes, they can get into the livestock enclosure. They will try. And they have also attacked humans sometimes. There was a big thing in Nairobi, like the outskirts of Nairobi not too long ago, where some college students or something were walking home at night on the edge of Nairobi national park and got attacked. Tuesday, the Kenya Wildlife Service clarified that two people, including the student, were attacked by hyena. This statement adds 3. That its personnel responded quickly and managed to take the injured to hospital. KWS, in the statement, added that they discovered partial remains of a human being killed at the scene. The family of the deceased has been notified. The KWS has asked people living near the area to be vigilant as it was unfenced annual corridor. It, however, says. Pretty sad, but still, like, we live with these wild apex predators sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They can also, like, get into sort of nuisance trouble. Near where I work in Kenya, someone had a hyena show up and, like, totally destroy their little hut store. Oh, yeah. And, like, get in there. Because they are generalists. They can eat everything from elephants to caterpillars.

[A]

Oh. So if you've got some fruit in there. Yeah, they're gonna be like, yum, yum, yum.

[B]

They could. I've definitely. There was someone I knew who had a hyena coming and, like, taking the maple syrup off the patio or something.

[A]

Can you blame it? Can you blame it?

[B]

So they could be nuisances. Yeah. And there could be ser. With them sometimes attacking kids. But that's not their M.O. usually. But just like any behaviorally flexible animal, the individual's behavior can be different, individual by individual. And so you could end up with an animal that prefers to do this one behavior and then just keeps getting into trouble.

[A]

Yeah, Just a little rascal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Lion King. I'll be honest with you. I've never seen it.

[B]

You've never seen the Lion King?

[A]

I've never seen the Lion King. There is a whole lacuna. There is a whole empty spot of pop culture for me where I didn't have a TV for a little while. Cause I was always on, like, I always had a deadline, which is very stupid. Never seen the Lion King. And I know I'm missing out. I will see it before this goes up. I did see it. I watched it. And yeah, it was brutal, emotionally. And my friends Laurel and Catherine and your podmother Jarrett kept asking me for the first 40 minutes of the movie. You seriously haven't ever heard this song? You've never seen this movie? And I was like, I haven't. But now I have. Two things stood out to me, okay? The animators clearly modeled Scar's hyena army after Hitler's. And I looked it up. Yes, the 1935 German propaganda film the Triumph of the Will was inspo. And it made me. I mean, this is an older movie. It made me feel really nostalgic for eras when our country promised to kill Nazis instead of elect them. And also, side note, that imagery was eliminated in the 2019 live action version of the film because now the US is anti, anti fascism, which should frighten you a little bit more than a hyena attack. Also, number two, never trust a shady uncle who tells you to keep things a secret. Good messages. But I know that there are hyenas that are ct. They're causing trouble. I think in there, there's Scar is a bad guy. I think maybe the mean. It's like Hamlet, right?

[B]

Scar, but he's a lion.

[A]

He's a lion. I remember that. And then is the threat that because they make noises people interpret as laughing, that they are talking shit on you? Is that why people are threatened by hyenas?

[B]

So, yes, some of the misconceptions and myths. Well, so there's some cultural aspects where, like people are associate them with witchcraft. Every now and then, a hyena will do some grave digging, which doesn't help their reputation very much. But like, bones be bones and they can digest them. And their poop is often pure white from the calcium and the bones they

[A]

digest, it's pretty metal.

[B]

So they're really. I can get into public health benefits later because they do help us. Oh, they also their genitalis, body genitalia really increases that witchcraft association and misconception about them. That's just like, oh, that's too weird. I'm afraid of it. It also crushes bone, which doesn't help its cause. They're the worst. Let's kill them all.

[A]

Do they laugh at people?

[B]

They don't laugh at people, but. So spotted hyenas, they are highly social. They have a bunch of different behaviors, including a bunch of different vocalizations that they do that mean different things. The laugh actually is more of an anxiety indicator, isn't it, though?

[A]

Sometimes for everyone.

[B]

I'm gonna go right, exactly. And there's like some excitement there for sure. But like, typically when you're hearing a lot of those laughs, it's the excitement, yes, of being around a kill. But it's a little bit more because they have these. Every single hyena is in a particular rank socially. They have an individual social rank. But if I'm a lower ranking hyena eating a delicious cut of meat on a carcass and my higher ranking superior comes up to me to try and get that meat, I will sort of bare my teeth, nervously flick my tail up over my back, and something we call bristle tail, and then laugh like, sorry, I'm getting out of here. Really, you hear it in, like, moments of high energy and excitement that are usually around these big resource items. That's when you'll hear it the most.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So it's more often like, oh, I don't know.

[A]

I'm so sorry.

[B]

Don't worry, everything's fine.

[A]

That's so. Okay. That's a revelation to me. And then what about those misconceptions in pop culture? Because you think about hyenas, they're laughing at you. They're making a fool of you. They want to eat you again. Lion King. Well, well, well. Banzai.

[B]

What have we got here?

[A]

But do any pop cultural references get it right? Or is there one that's just the most egregious?

[B]

Well, I mean, honestly, Disney has the only. No, I guess what's her face with that pet hyena, which, like, never have a pet hyena. Also that one superhero that she's like, off her. Off her head a little bit.

[A]

Harley Quinn. Oh, shit. Is that a hyena in a bathtub? I named him Bruce after that hunky, whiny.

[B]

He's my little dumpling.

[A]

Aren't you? Aren't you my little thing? Bruce, he was wandering around Chinatown. I guess it proves the theory that hyenas really do have nine lives.

[B]

But anyway, that hyena was like a sidekick, which is cool, but like, anytime a hyena's a pet in a film, I'm like, oh, no. Oh, dear. But Disney has the monopoly, for the most part, on hyena content in pop culture. And they really did the dirty and the Lion King, which. The one thing they did get right was that there was a female leader. Because in most clans, at most points in time, all the females in the clan are ranked more highly than all the males for spotties, because they have a matrilineal social structure, which means it passes from mama to cub. The youngest cub is the highest rank and the male cubs eventually immigrate out. And when you come into a new clan as a male, you are automatically at the bottom of the totem pole. So there may be like temporary moments where there's a little male cub who's higher ranked, but he's gonna leave at some point. And so most of the time, females over males, which is kind of awesome.

[A]

And it's the younger cubs that are higher rank.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

No.

[B]

The youngest daughter of the highest ranking female in the clan is the highest ranking at the time.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you the youngest in your family?

[B]

Yeah. And it kind of holds true for me. Are you?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

The youngest are the best.

[A]

Youngest kid and daughter. So nice. No wonder we love hyenas. Okay, I have a million questions from listeners and I've been waiting to get to the pseudo penis. Dr. Wilkinson gestures to the stuffy in her hand.

[B]

Yeah, this one is not accurate.

[A]

Is that. Is that supposed to.

[B]

Oh, I mean, there's just nothing there.

[A]

They did a Barbie on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No Jenny's to speak of.

[B]

No.

[A]

Do you think that when designing this stuffed animal, they had to sit around a conference table and say, we gotta give it some kind of looking dick. What are we gonna do?

[B]

I feel like if this was like a bark box toy, they would do. They would actually give it the dick. But as it is, I think Wild Republic does not give anything. Genitalia.

[A]

It's a disservice to the narrative. But we'll talk about it. Okay? And talk about it we will in just a moment. But we're gonna take a quick break to donate to a charity of choice. And this week we're doing a double donation. One to the beloved Los Angeles County Natural History Museum to support specifically Black Mammalogist week, which provides opportunities for current and aspiring black mammalogists across the diaspora to form conscious, fruitful connections in addition to illuminating historical and present day black contributions in the field of homology. And they say in our ideal future, young black people of all backgrounds will realize that they are not only welcome but needed and. And vital to the future of this field. Love Black Mammalogist Week. And this year they're holding an in person event at the Natural history museum in LA on October 16th. So go to black mammalogists.com you just see the link in the show notes for more details. Including they also have a black and indigenous Scholars in Mammalogy award and the application for that is on their website too. And we're also donating to El El Na Alaq, which is providing essential aid to families across Gaza, including clean water, food and basic hygiene supplies. They're supporting people in critical need with dignity and humanity. And you can find out more about El El Na Alaq also at the link in our show notes they say this is what solidarity looks like when the world turns its back. Thank you so much to Dr. Wilkinson for choosing those, and thank you to sponsors of the show for making our weekly donations possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all in one website platform. Whether you're trying to grow a business you have or if you're just a baby business getting started, it has everything you need. That's where I secured my domain name. It helped me build a professional site. I can update it so easily. I've been using Squarespace since before Ologies existed. After procrastinating for years, I literally built my website in one evening. They have templates, they have flexible editing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to share your work. You can book clients, you can get paid. They have built in tools for scheduling and invoicing an email all in one place. Whenever someone I know needs a website, whether they're a scientist that needs to put their work up or someone who's just starting a business, I'm like, dude, Squarespace. So head to squarespace.com ologies for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer code ologies to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can do it. Do you remember in school when you knew that you had a teacher who had like a favorite blazer? You're like, Ah, Mr. Sheppe's wearing the burgundy again. And yes, Mr. Sheppe had a favorite student. It wasn't me, but my friend Marcy was killing it with her algebra homework. Let's talk about another real favorite thing that's not Marcy or me. Their favorite tissue brand Kleenex. According to teacher lists, they're the number one facial tissue trusted by teachers. Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are silky soft to help prevent skin irritation you don't want. And now you can take them anywhere with Kleenex, Snap and go. Because really, at any time, at any moment, you could need Kleenex tissue. That in the background was my husband blowing his nose. Which is proof. So do the best thing for your kids teachers this year stock up on the ultimate classroom favorite and necessity. I don't know. Maybe it'll make them their teacher's favorite student. Just kidding. They do not have a favorite. They probably. Probably do. So for whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Listen, sometimes you get out of your routine. That happened to me recently when I went out of town and I realized I forgot my ritual. Essential for women 18 plus. It's a multi that I've been taking for years. And guess who landed in another country without them?

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Down the hatch. I usually take them in the morning, and the reason why I've stuck with ritual for so many years is because my schedule is all over the place. Sometimes I'm eating breakfast. Sometimes I'm running through an airport with one shoe. So instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com ologies that's ritual.com ologies for 25% off your first month. Oh, it's August, as they say. It's the Sunday of summer for me. I love it. Bring me the wool, give me the socks. It's also a perfect time to do a little reset before autumn. Your wardrobe is a good place to start. And quince proves you don't need a crowded, overstuffed closet to look wonderful. You just need the right stuff in it. Everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories. They cut out the middlemen. So you're paying less for high quality and you're not wasting the money on brand markup. I love Quint. Literally. Most of my wardrobe is quint. I even wore a Quint washable silk dress on the red carpet for the Webbies. That's how much I love them. I love their Mongolian cashmere. I love their denim pants. I even have Quint underwear. So Quint, I love you. You can upgrade your everyday go to quint.com ologies for free shipping on your order and 365 day return now available in Canada and the UK too. So that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com ologies for free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com ologies

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via virtual prepaid guard card. Typically takes 15 days after rebate submission price guarantee on Talk text and 5G data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. Okay, so let's get to your questions. Patrons, you too can [e-mail] ologies it's a dollar a month. You could submit questions ahead of time. We ask as many as we can. So many good ones in this one. Like 30 of you asked, such as Erin Ryan and Ketra wanted to know. Erin from Vancouver. Hey, this is Erin Ryan from Vancouver, Canada. You gotta talk about the female pseudo penis situation. Ketra says, what the heck is up with hyena's sexual parts? It's so weird. Please explain. So many people wanted to know. And it's matrilineal, which is wonderful. That's gotta tie in with the junk.

[B]

Yeah. So should I tell you about the what or the why?

[A]

First talk about the what.

[B]

Okay, let's start with the what.

[A]

Yeah, paint a picture.

[B]

Spotted hyenas. And this is only true for spotted hyenas, not the other three species. The females have what has been historically called a pseudo phallus because the people who came up with that term were white men who were scared to say clitoris. Which is what?

[A]

That is amazing. So they say what? It's not in relation to males.

[B]

Yeah. So the spotted hyena clitoris is the same length and size as the male's penis.

[A]

Love.

[B]

It gets erect and soft like a male's penis does.

[A]

Love.

[B]

And here's the kicker. They have sex pee and give birth through their clitoris.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. How are they having sex through it?

[B]

Okay. So they have to make it soft and sort of retract it. And then it's very awkward. The female has all the control, as you might imagine when you're pushing a rope into another rope. But it involves a lot of acrobatics. But it Essentially is the same thing except like instead of mounting the female in a way you might expect in a mammal, it's like sort of like a half mount, dig underneath kind of vibe I guess.

[A]

Male on the bottom.

[B]

Male. Male is on top. Male is mounting after a fashion. But like definitely like has a little bit more acrobatics to do. Maybe has good ab muscles, I don't know. But yeah, the female sort of retracts it all.

[A]

Gotta get a strong core. Yeah, you need a strong core for that. I'd like you to know a few more dinner party facts about specifically spotted hyena Peni. First female so called pseudophalluses are thicker than the boys, they have a more rounded tip and they also feature small spines on the head making them feel like soft sandpaper Report researchers who have felt the tip of a giant hyena clit. Now getting a boner as a woman hyena. It's not a flex. In fact, according to the banger of a paper in the journal Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology titled the the erect penis is a flag of submission in female dominated society. Greetings and Serengeti spotted hyenas females will greet each other. They'll lift a hind leg for just a lady dick inspection and those who stay soft are the dominant ones. It's like doing a math problem as a seventh grader. Just a hard one in front of the entire pack is a sign of submissive embarrassment. If I can project emotionally. Now sometimes if reacquainting two females may get into a bit of a tussle and they'll bite each other's 7 inch dongs doing lasting reproductive harm in case it had never crossed your mind or your crotch. Human penises and clitorises come from the same tissue. It's called a genital tubercle and it's influenced by hormones so it kind of decides the trajectory. And we have a great two part neuroendocrinology episode with Dr. Daniel Pfau that talks all about that and gender and intersex anatomy and so many other wonderful things link in the show notes. But yeah, a clit is more than meets the eye. If you're a human being, you got a nubbin at the top of the wishbone and then bulbs that kind of grace your vulva. Like underground arms. Yeah, we do need a whole episode on that. We'll work on it but for now. Okay, wait, so in a human the clit is kind of like a wishbone? Did this just form out around the vagina and urethra like a Tube sock, kind of.

[B]

Yeah. So I think the spotted hyena is the only species to have its vagina fully enclosed in its clitoris.

[A]

How about that?

[B]

Yeah. Which is like. I can go on. Because if you think too hard about that, you're like, holy hell, yeah. Right. In fact, having to exit a clitoris on your way out is not easy for either the cub or the mother, I'm sure.

[A]

Can it widen to accommodate? It has to.

[B]

I mean, it's, it's a stretchy skin.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cause it, you know, it becomes engorged and all of that stuff. Good stuff that stretchy skin does. But a few things happen because of needing to traverse a canal that's not quite meant for a cub. So there's. I forget the percentage of first time cubs that die, but like, there's a chunk of them. It's estimated, I think around 60%.

[A]

Do they have one at a time or do they have like six in a litter?

[B]

They can have up to two.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Unlike the other hyenas, they only have two nipples.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Pretty sure that the other ones have more nipples than that.

[A]

Wow. So they're just rocking. Okay. So maybe twins, if that.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not. I think it's not uncommon for one of them to kill the other at some point. Siblicide. And then I think during the first time birth, there's like 20% estimated of first time moms could die in birth.

[A]

Oh, dear.

[B]

And the other thing that happens is, like, it's pretty much guaranteed that that clitoris is gonna tear during the first ever birth. Yeah. Which is helpful for telling them apart from the males later on.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Because there's a pink scar that runs along the clitoris if you are a female who has given birth.

[A]

Okay. How do the sizes impact rank? Not at all or somewhat.

[B]

The sizes don't impact rank. But the females tend to be bigger than the males.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But also when you're higher ranked, you get better cuts of meat and you have to take less risks and go less far to access those better cuts of meat.

[A]

Do they have any idea from the evolutionary biology standpoint or the ethology standpoint why it is matriarchy?

[B]

Well, I like to distinguish between matriarchy and matrilineal.

[A]

Oh, okay. So matriarchy is when females are in power. And Dr. Wilkinson says that matriarchy in elephant society, say, refers to a single female female leader, whereas matrilineal is a transfer of power from mothers to their offspring. Kind of like inherited wealth versus power. So you can be rich without being in politics, and you can be in politics without being rich.

[B]

But there's elephants that are matriarchal and maybe also matrilineal cetaceans. Yeah. Have a lot of, like, female girl power in them.

[A]

Do you think that's why they get paired in with witchcraft? Do you think it's just straight up, like, femiphobia?

[B]

Honestly, I don't even think so, because people didn't. People don't even understand that they're females necessarily when they see them. Yeah, you gotta get up. It's, like, really close. I imagine there are ways to tell them apart, which I can really. Should I say the theories about why the clitoris exists, or should I say the ways to tell the males and females apart?

[A]

Oh, choose your character. Tell me why. Tell me why they clit.

[B]

Okay, we don't know, but there are theories. First is they use their clitoris and also the penis erect as part of their greeting ceremonies. They talk to each other about social rank and all sorts of other communication. And, like, they lift their legs and, like, sniff each other and stuff like that. There's an element of, like, maybe they evolved these partially as a way to defend against or be more formidable against males in a couple of ways. Like, they control all of the sexual encounters. And then there's also, like. There's a. It could be a byproduct of females getting that dominant advantage because there's tons and tons of androgens that the fetuses are exposed to in the womb, like, way more than your average mammal is exposed to in the womb. And, like, are they getting these long clitorises because of the. All the androgens they're exposed to in the womb, which are a factor of, like, the territoriality and aggression that the moms also. All hyenas show, but the moms show, as part of their social rank, especially, the cubs are also, like. They come out very formidable. Like, they have some teeth already. Their eyes are open. They're ready to rock and roll, which is very unusual in a mammal. Typically, they'll come out, like, eyes closed, helpless. So, like, the cubs are ready to go.

[A]

Oh. And so, okay, big clit. Does it. Can they come? What's up? Do they know if they're having orgasms with that?

[B]

I feel like we can't even. We haven't even studied enough about hyena basic ecology for us to get to the orgasm.

[A]

Very little research in humans. So, yeah, who knows? I just wasn't sure if that's, like, I don't know. I'll Look, I'll. I'll see if there's anything on it, but I'm gonna guess that's probably a big question mark.

[B]

I would put money on it being a question mark, but I sure hope I'm wrong.

[A]

Correct. I could find nothing on if a female spotted hyena experiences spasms of sexual pleasure. But a 2011 New York Times article, How Spotted Hyenas Mate, detailed some observations from the UC Berkeley hyena commune and said that females don't mate with their hometown spotted hyenas. They prefer immigrants to the clan. They want a fresh bombshell in the villa. Also, because getting it on is so acrobatic and difficult, sexual coercion is impossible in hyena society, at least spotted hyenas. So let's talk a little bit about that. Let's set the scene. So this article explains that a female spottie or will shove that ass in the air and she'll put her head on the ground to signal, I'm not going to bite you if we fuck. And one observation at Berkeley details failed mount attempts. It says the male veered off at the last second as if he was simply overcome by nervousness. And it explains that even though the female's organ is flaccid during the copulation, its only opening does point forward and downward. So. So the male must, quote, hop around behind the female while he squats behind her, thrusting blindly upward and backward to achieve this intromission. And it notes, it's actually very comical. Also, spotted hyenas will go find a little far off, secluded place to do that dirty. And not because they're shy or they lack an exhibitionist kink, but because after mating, they can be stuck together for minutes at a time and they could get absolutely wrecked by a predator in that post coital dictangle. Sometimes the man hyena will spend that time grooming his lover's neck as if to say, hey, that was awkward, but it was really nice. In a 2020 paper in the Journal of Endocrinology titled Spotted Hyenas and the Sexual Reproductive Endocrinology and Development notes that the study of the spotted hyena quote, forces a re evaluation of how we define masculine versus feminine sexual characteristics. And I like that.

[B]

I feel like if conservatives found out about a funded research project hyena orgasm, like, we would be in big trouble in science. I mean, we already are, but maybe

[A]

they could learn something from it. Okay.

[B]

How to tell males and females apart. I was going to say, because I find this to be important, which like nobody else does. So there are a few ways and some of them are easier than others, but all of them are hard.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The female's erect clitoris actually has a more blunt end than the male's erect penis.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So if you're looking at the tips, then look for that. Oh, you need a point. You need a point to get in. The female, once she's given birth, has a pink scar on her clitoris, as I mentioned. Also, once she's given birth, her two little teats distend and you can try to catch a glimpse of those. And that's pretty distinctive. Fun fact. While we're talking about telling them apart, some might ask, why can't you just tell them apart? Because the male has testicles. And the answer is the female has a pseudoscrotum as well.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you kidding me?

[B]

I kid you not. And in fact, I have had to teach when we've had a hyena at hand. I taught my old vet when I first started doing this work that we actually had a female who hadn't given birth because you squeeze the pseudosclerotum and there's nothing in there. It's just a sack of flesh which could be tied to the androgens I was talking about earlier, for instance, but we don't know.

[A]

Just drag kings.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Love.

[B]

They're amazing.

[A]

Hyaenidologists also look for a little bulge in the abdomen that might hint at a dropped uterus, but it's hard to tell if it's just a tummy full of water buffalo meat in there. Like everyone looks pregnant on Thanksgiving.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Okay, Tyler Banks, first time question. Do they groom each other and do they play?

[B]

Yes and yes. Well, spotties do and I'm pretty sure the other ones do as well. Everybody grooms for sure.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They are, as I'll remind you, fellowforms. So they have some cat like traits and play is a huge part of sociality. So I would put money on brown hyenas also playing. Maybe striped, but spotties definitely play. I watch them play. It's very sweet.

[A]

What do they do?

[B]

They'll like roll around with each other or like snap at each other and do sort of violent looking, cute things.

[A]

El Pete wanted to know, hypothetically speaking, if a hyena was sitting on my kitchen counter, would it be inclined to knock cups and salt shakers on the floor?

[B]

It might be inclined to eat you. Yeah, I was gonna say while it's crushing. That's all. Knock the things on the floor.

[A]

Rachel B. First Time question asker wanted to know if they really eat shoes. So do they have dog like or cat like behaviors? If you were. I mean they have hyena like behaviors, but do they tend to be more cat like? No.

[B]

I've watched a hyena, a young hyena squeeze through the tiniest hole in a fence that I'm sure a canid would not be able to get through. And I was like, oh, you just reminded me that you're a fellowform. Like you just made yourself into liquid for a second. But I don't think that's common.

[A]

Yeah, just. I can't imagine a dog doing that. Han the Bee, Badi and Arya Victor wanted to know about scent marking. And Han the bee says, I once heard that hyenas mark territory by what sounded like taking part of their insides and turning it outside. Ara Victor said, my girlfriend just told me they can turn their buttholes inside out. Is that true? Why nature is so beautiful.

[B]

Yes. Don't we all wish we could turn our buttholes inside out?

[A]

Don't we?

[B]

To mark our terror.

[A]

If only you're like those.

[B]

So many forget. Simply safe.

[A]

Sponsored to you by buttholes. Yeah, it would definitely be helpful in the movies when your friends are out getting popcorn and you need to save their seats.

[B]

Exactly. They do they ever. So they have a scent glands. I think all four hyena species have the scent glance that they use to mark their territory. They'll do this very dainty. I mean they'll do it anywhere but like I've seen spotties do like a very dainty little like oh, let me just put this right here on this blade of grass and like evert their butt a bit and get that scent paste out.

[A]

Woof.

[B]

I was gonna say something. Oh, about eating shoes. They do try to chew on my tire sometimes.

[A]

If they can crush bones, they can crush a Suzuki Samurai tire, right?

[B]

Yeah. And so I have some evasive maneuvers that I try to do in those moments, but it is very cute. It's usually the cubs that try to do it.

[A]

Little babies. Well, I don't know if they could digest them, but Halle Ragusa, Caroline Baxter, Mark Rubin, Megan Ratcliffe, creme de la creme. Britt Klein, Louis H. Clara Punff wanted to know, Louis H. Said, do hyenas have particular microbes in their gut that let them digest all this stuff they eat, such as bones? Brit Klein wanted to know if you've seen them eat anything really weird. But yeah. How are they digesting all them bones?

[B]

I mean their tummies Are super acidic. They also, like, again, they can crush the bones pretty well with their teeth. I think 1100psi.ish for the spotted, which is I think the largest bite force of a terrestrial mammal, not a mammal, because, like, think about an orca. Probably a lot more psi, I'd say.

[A]

Oof.

[B]

So they have acidic tummies. They also like their disease endpoints in a lot of cases as well. I think the military was trying to study that for a minute to try and like, use it for evil, but they couldn't figure it out. But like, they produce a lot of antibodies for things very quickly, even in their saliva. So they are one of the only species known to routinely be an endpoint for rabies, for instance.

[A]

Oh my God. So they're like, how can we inoculate ourselves against biowarfare we inflict on other people? What do the hyenas do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it that kind of stuff?

[B]

Yeah, I think pretty much what they were setting their blood for a minute.

[A]

I don't trust it.

[B]

Yeah, it was weird. And I'm like, and then what?

[A]

Yeah. To what end, really, in terms of the habitat? Megan Bacon, Nikki g. Marla J. Mel s&bug in a Rugby wanted to know. Well, Nikki G Asked if elephant graveyards make for adequate environments for hyenas. But you mentioned their dens and knowing that they can be like 80. A clan can have 80. Like, where are they living?

[B]

Oh, I should have made that clear. First of all, never been to an elephant graveyard.

[A]

Whoa. It's really creepy. Yeah.

[B]

Elephants are extirpated. From where I've worked the past decade, I have seen elephants, but narrow graveyard would. I think that that's a good place for a hyena. I feel like they might want more food and shelter than a graveyard could provide.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I don't know. Hyenas are very adaptable and they can like, live in cities. So that's. Sure that's a great habitat for them. Because anywhere is.

[A]

It seems heads up, elephant graveyards don't exist as far as scientists know. So make sure to ruin that for everyone, you know, because the world deserves the truth. Do they dig a burrow so they

[B]

can dig burrows out, but they also often will reuse old burrows from things like warthogs and things like that. Usually where I work in the savannas, you'll see warthogs and hyenas in the same sort of habitat. And it's really annoying. I'll get back to the dens in a second. It's really annoying. Because this is a very niche fact. But a warthog is a rooter, right? They root through the. They put their little knees down and they root through the soil to get stuff. And when their butts are in the air and their heads are close to the ground, it looks from a distance. Again, I wear glasses almost equivalent to when a hyena is sitting down. Oh, yeah. And I'm so. I'm like, is that a hyena sitting down or a warthog's butt? It's a warthog's butt. Got it.

[A]

That's such a specific problem to have.

[B]

Yeah, it's so specific. Anyway, so the dens, they don't all live in the den. The den is meant for cubs. So there's usually two, at least two dens at any given time. There's the natal den, where the females who are going to give birth go to give birth and have the little tiny yin beans, as I call them. We call them all beans, beans. And yins is hyenas, yens beans.

[A]

Oh, my God. Adorable.

[B]

I love them. And they'll stay there for, you know, a certain period of time and then move over to the familial den, which is the one that, like, kind of the communal den that everybody's kind of gathered at at the morning and the evening and sometimes other times throughout the day or night. But the cubs hang out in there when everybody is off doing stuff.

[A]

What's the capacity? What's the headcount inside one of those familial dens?

[B]

I mean, it depends. I've seen a den that's very small, and I've seen dens that are intended for a clan of, like, 65 hyenas that, like, maybe will have anywhere between two and, like, nine cubs at a time. Right. So it's super dependent. Like, the dens can be different sizes. It's infuriating when you're looking for them without having any clue where they are. Yeah, sometimes I can sniff them out, which is kind of fun. Hyenas have a very musky smell. I mean, sometimes they have a very rotting flesh smell, but, like, musky smell. Like, I knew where a din was, sort of, but it was in a very dense forest. And I drove my little Suzuki in there and, like, scratched it to pieces. And I sort of got out of the car and I have a witness to this. So, like, I'm not crazy, I got out of the car and I was like, where is it? Like, it's. It was just so dense. And I started to Smell. I, like, sniffed them out, and I found it. There might even be a video of me finding the den by sniffing.

[A]

Getting closer, getting closer. On that note, I thought this was a great question. Rachel B. First time question asker. Hypothetically speaking, smiley face. If a camper were on her period and a pack of hyenas came sniffing around the grounds, what's the likelihood she'd get dragged away as a hyena snack? Delight in Goblin Prince. Naomi, first time question asker. Empress of Smallwood. Addie Capello, Earl of Gramalkin. Leila likes bugs. And Jenna Congdon wanted to know, will they eat you? Jenna says, would they like scritches? Are they mean and scary as they're made out to be, or are they nice little weirdos with bad pr? So can they sniff you out and perhaps devour your bones? Are they going to kill you?

[B]

They can definitely kill you, but your average hyena is going to be, like, a little bit more wary of trying to get into a tent or something like that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

To, like, actively come get you. Like, they're going to be more likely to raid your trash in the campground for your used tampons or whatever it is.

[A]

Would that be delicious for them? Probably.

[B]

Probably, right?

[A]

Yeah, I guess so.

[B]

Why not? My dog used to eat those. I mean, absolutely disgusting.

[A]

Blood is blood is blood. Like, I guess like a sponge of barbecue sauce.

[B]

Yeah. No. Ooh. So, yeah, but, like, you know, I wouldn't sleep with your tent open in general whether or not you were bleeding because, like, there have been cases where they just, like, were like, oh, look, an arm and, like, ripped it off and walked away. What if because these people fell asleep with their. The first half of their bodies out of their tent looking at the stars

[A]

or something like that and just grabbed a limb and ran?

[B]

Yeah, they're opportunistic. The answer to are they cute little misunderstood weirdos or are they dangerous? Is like, yes. The answer is yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, they're not out to get you, but they're an opportunistic apex predator. Yeah.

[A]

You're in their territory, wandering around or in, like, a vinyl tent.

[B]

Yeah. We need to, like, build a culture of coexistence where, like, we do smart things well.

[A]

Okay. Valerie Bertha, Sidonie S. Addie Capello, Curtis Dog. Ariel Van Sant, Aaron Dewberry Villainy. Grace Conroy, Quill Sloan, Leanne Oettinger, Pavka 34, Megan Ratcliff and Jacob Morvay wanted to know, in Jacob's words, my entire perspective on hyenas comes from the Lion King. Assuming they don't sound like Whoopi Goldberg, what does the movie get right and wrong? A lot of people want to know how accurate are the hyenas in the Lion King. Are they mischievous?

[B]

So they can be mischievous because they're very clever and very intelligent. The only accuracy really, though, was that the females were leading them. The female hyena. That was good.

[A]

Stay put.

[B]

No, we wait for the signal from Scar. There he is.

[A]

Is. Let's go. Hey, there he goes. There he goes.

[B]

The rest of it is like, there was a lot of implications about them being dirty scavengers with, like, their apex predators. And they do compete. Like the movie was written by a lion. Honestly. Clearly.

[A]

Clearly they compete with lion's uncle was a producer.

[B]

Life's not fair, is it? You see, I.

[A]

When I. I shall never be king and you shall never see the light of another day.

[B]

And you. Yeah, exactly. Let's make it this way. And they kill up to 70 or even more percent of their own prey. Lions in some settings have been more likely to steal hyena kills than the other way around. And the other thing about hyenas is, like, they help us like they help the ecosystem. They are an ecosystem cleaner. They can digest bone, they can clean it all up. There's been one study estimating from Ethiopia, estimating what would happen if you removed hyenas from the landscape. And they basically estimated that, like, there would be a ton more disease for both livestock and people and a ton more money going into trying to mitigate that disease.

[A]

Especially if they're an endpoint. What do they call, What's a disease?

[B]

Endpoint for a lot of diseases that we know of so far.

[A]

So again, done dirty, right? Oh, let's cram in another from Norab. And first time question asker, Naomi, from whoms do they watch their backs? Do they have predators who's eaten hyenas?

[B]

I mean, lions and hyenas will fight, but the cubs can be eaten by all sorts of things, right? Like little beans, especially when they're the little tiny ones. People are the main threat for most, if not all four hyena species. Like getting hit by cars, getting killed through poisoning, burning out the dens, et cetera.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, just meanies. Comet omelette. First time question asker says, I have questions about aardwolves. First off, why so cute? And how do they not mind having their tongues bitten by termites all day and night? Do they get nibbled by their prey?

[B]

I think that termites have the ability to like, Let out acid or something like something very chemical about a termite that's involved in their defense. And the tongue of an of aardwolves has evolved a defense mechanism against that defense. So like I don't think they feel it or otherwise they'd be feeling it 300,000 times.

[A]

I know you're not going to sleep until I tell you about the 1994 article in the Journal of Immology titled Tolerance of aardwolves to defense Secretions of Trinerva termis trinervoides, which are termites. And it says that, yeah, termites are over 90% of the diet of aardwolves in South Africa. And curious as to how they could even deal, scientists collected liquidized in oil and then added in different concentrations this termite slurry to the diets of captive aardwolves, African civets, and bat eared foxes. Sort of like an episode of Top Chef with each of them being a judge. And the judges reactions were the foxes refused to even eat the termite mixture. They were like, get it out of here, this is crapola. But civets were like, it's not my fave, but I'd eat it. And aardwolves tolerated the highest concentrations. They were like, bravo. Give these nerds the prize. And the termite chef. Scientists concluded that the ancestors of aardwolves and relatives of civets adapted to tolerate noxious chemicals and hence the defense secretions of these delicious termites. Maybe they love it though. You know, I just did a hot sauce episode. Some people love it and that shit hurts. So who knows? Okay, last listener question. Holland G. And Leela likes bugs. Want to know? Leela or Lila says, can I love them? And more importantly, can I help them? And Holland G. Wants to know, how are they doing conservation wise?

[B]

Okay, can you love them? Yes, love them today. Permission granted.

[A]

Done.

[B]

Can you help them? Yes. There are a lot of ways you can help them. I would say there are ways to donate to organizations that are doing broader coexistence efforts. Sometimes they're focused on lions, but they still help hyenas when there's like not a lion being poisoned or something being poisoned that they want a lion to die from. You can continue to spread the word. I have been giving spotted hyenas stuffies to children for the past decade to try and plant seeds of joy and love and care for the animals and fight misconceptions about them.

[A]

So what is the hardest part about studying them? Is it getting up in the middle of the night? So you can be there by dawn. Is it field work?

[B]

Yeah, honestly, sometimes. So I work with people and spotted hyenas, so I work at night and during the day. So, like, that's a big difficulty. I get very tired. There's also some mornings where, like, I need to get up and go at, like, 3:30 or 4.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

So that's hard. But, like, sometimes there's, like, buffalo outside of my house, and I can't do field work that morning because I'll die trying to get out. But honestly, the hardest part is, like, working with people who are struggling with hyenas or who hate them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's kind of the most rewarding part and the most fun while being the hardest. But, like, I've had a lot of great success stories around it too. We started calling ourselves. Am I allowed to curse on this podcast?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Okay. So we started calling my team. In my PhD, I worked with two Kenyan master's students, Christine and Gerald, and we were calling ourselves Team Mafisi, which. Mafisi means hyenas in Swahili, but it's become a little bit of a curse word as well. Okay. That means, like, fuck boys, basically. And so, like, I knew that I speak Swahili. I also knew about that, and I knew how negative it was. And I was like, y', all, we're gonna reclaim Mafissi. And so we started calling ourselves that. And at first, people would laugh when we'd meet, like, rangers or whatever, and they'd be like, huh, you don't know what that means. And I'm like, I know exactly what it means. We're reclaiming it. And now people have come on board calling themselves Team Mafisi. And when I get out of the Suzuki, there's a crowd of people there that are like, team Mafisi.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And I was so surprised.

[A]

Oh, that's so sweet. You're a legend.

[B]

Yeah. So people, like, you know, I'm not saying, like, there's some sea change in how people are viewing hyenas, but there's, like, these little bits of just, like, using comedy and using connection and being authentic that, like, maybe move the needle in these tiny ways. That's been really nice to see. And I'm still a shy guy in there somewhere, but, like, the muscle has been worked enough that, like, feels less daunting and more, like, how do I connect authentically with people?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're. You're such a good voice for hyenas and in general, for scrappy wildlife. I know that's your website too, right?

[B]

Scrappy Naturalist.

[A]

Scrappy Naturalist. What is it that you love the most about. About what you do out of everything you know?

[B]

Gosh, I love how you never know what the next day will bring to you. How you can always let people surprise you and the wildlife surprise you. I like how diverse my days are, everything from working with people to putting a collar on a coyote or a hyena to doing a TV show or something. I'm writing a children's book that's about misunderstood animals, Scrappy Animals that'll come out in spring 2028. I can do all of those things as part of my job at the museum, which is part of why I like museums.

[A]

Yeah, there's so much science going on, but there also is so much public interaction. It's so funny that there are so few people in the world studying hyenas. And now we like. Now we're like friends with one. Now everyone who listens to this is like, yeah, Dr. Wilkes.

[B]

Hopefully there will be more and more and more.

[A]

I love hyenas now.

[B]

Good.

[A]

I like, thought they were cool, but now I love them.

[B]

They're amazing. Yeah, you're the best bone crushers.

[A]

So ask learned people absurdist questions because hyenas, they deserve to be known. And now we know them. You can know more about Dr. Christine Wilkinson via scrappynaturalist.com and you can follow socials at the links in the show notes. We have many more links to research and videos [e-mail] ologies hyenidology. It's linked in the show notes as well. We are at Ologies on Instagram at bluesky. I'm Allie Ward. At both we have shorter kid friendly episodes. They're available in their own feed. No swears. Wherever you find podcasts, just search smologies S M o l l G I E s and subscribe there. We have Ologies Merch [e-mail] and to submit questions ahead of time, you can join the [e-mail] ologies for as little as one hot dollar a month. Erin Talbert. Love her admin Zoologies podcast Facebook group. Avileen Malik makes art PR professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer does the website. Our scheduling producer is Noelle Dilworth. Managing director is Susan Hale. Jake Chaffee edits. Lead editor is Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around to the very end, you know, I may tell you a secret. This week except for recently. For a few weeks. I was really concerned. I was super worried. I have a 14 year old daughter named Gremmy. She is a dog and I have been really worried that she has diabetes cause she's older and she smelled very sweet like sugar or like maple syrup. I was worried that maybe she was passing some glucose in her urine. All of her blood work came back fine and the smell persisted. She still smelled like sugar. We thought maybe it was like a shrub that she was brushing up against on our walks and then it went away, which is good. And then it came back months later and I realized that the smell was my banana boat lip balm and she smelled like it because I kiss her head a lot and when I wore the lip balm. There you go. She smelled delicious. Mystery solved. My worries melted away like honey. My beloved beast is just fine. I propose that you propose a toast to hyenas though at your next party. Pick a fact, any fact to share. There's so many but two hyenas. Bye bye.

[B]

And we deserve some respect.

[A]

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