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Ologies with Alie Ward
Paternology (FATHERHOOD) with Darby Saxbe
01:21:22
DADS. What makes a good one? What if you had a bad one? And how can fatherhood turn the tides on toxic masculinity? Also: diapers. The brilliant USC research psychologist, fatherhood expert, and thus Paternologist Dr. Darby Saxbe covers everything from prehistoric family systems to social media expectations as we chat about male hormones during and after pregnancy, division of labor, dad bods, gorillas, TV dads, seahorses, trans dads, oxytocin, gender reveals, and how it truly takes a community to raise a kid. Her brand new book is “Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How it Shapes Men's Lives,” and it’s great reading for anyone who was the result of a sperm and egg. Including frogs.
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- [00:01]
A
Oh hey, it's the lady who has a podcast who you call dad Ward because she doesn't mind embarrassing herself. So now you are mine. Hey, let's talk about dads. Who are they? What do they do? And in the words of many, many patrons who run in with questions, why do so many of them suck so bad? How did the good ones get it right? And we're gonna find out. Hop in the backseat. Let's examine the patternology about dads. You horse around back there, I'll turn this podcast around. But first, let's indeed thank those patrons for all the sweet and funny questions you sent. And if you'd like to submit yours before we record an episode, you can join the fam@patreon.com Ologies for one hot dollar a month which supports us. Also, if you do have little ones, we have smallogies. Those are shorter, kid friendly G rated episodes we put into their own feed, available to subscribe for free. Wherever you get podcasts, just look for smologies. S M O L O G I E S thanks to everyone who leaves reviews for the show, which always melt my heart and they help others find ologies such as the still warm one from Slugworm who wrote longtime listener, first time reviewer, fell so in love with science again, my long lost curiosity with nature that I changed my degree to biology. I graduated with honors this last year, took a class in Costa Rica, went on birding trips, worked on a decades long research project, made a program for kids, and so on Slugworm. If I told you how much that meant to me, this would be a very long episode. So thank you so much. Thanks to everyone who leaves reviews. I read them all. Also thank you to sponsors of ologies who make it possible for us to donate to a cause of the ologist's choosing each week. Guts are incredible. We've talked about them a lot on the show. It's working for you 24 7. Doing a lot behind the scenes. When it's doing its job, it's quiet, which is great because a boring gut leaves more room for an interesting life. And they have these new culturel complete three in one biotics. They're mini chews you just easily pop in your mouth every day, no water needed. They help with occasional bloating and gas and let's just say, digestive discomfort. So culturel probiotics, the science of a boring gut can see website for details. Today's show sponsored by Strawberry Me Are you where you want to be in your career? Are really any of us super successful people have mentors, they have coaches, they have people guiding them every step of the way. That's where Strawberry Me career coaching comes in. It gives you the clarity strategy, also accountability needed to turn your ideas and your goals into reality. Whether you're landing a new job, maybe you're trying to advance in the job you've got, or you just want to leave your field and go into one that you love more. Career coaching gives you expert guidance. You'll identify obstacles holding you back. You can develop a step by step plan. It's really hard to know when the right time to act on things are, when you need more planning, when to just go for it. And professional coaching helps you find take control of your career trajectory. I have had career coaching, wouldn't have started ologies without it. And also I've used Strawberry Me to help me figure out how to make sure that I'm using my voice the most authentic way that I can. My coach was very empathetic but also was straight talking to help me identify where I can take action. Go to Strawberry Me ologies and get 50% off your first coaching session. So that's strawberry me OG apologies. It's like therapy for your career. Okay, so this one time I booked a vacation rental for my husband's entire family and it wasn't until after the trip was over that they told me a few of the windows didn't open and one of the beds collapsed. I was on the wrong app. Vrbo has a loved by guest search filter for their top rated vacation rentals with near perfect ratings for cleanliness and location and all the good stuff. So no, no surprises. What you see is exactly what you get. Search Click Done Book Today on the Vrbo app if you know you verbo terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details. Okay Paternology. It comes from the Greek for pater father. Don't get it twisted with paterology, which is the study of God the Father in a holy churchy way, but capital T capital P. The patriarchy also comes obviously from the same root, the the rule of the Father, which many anthropologists trace the patriarchy to an envy of motherhood and creation. Patriarchy deserves its own episode. But let's crack into this can of worms about dadhood with an absolutely brilliant, highly lauded clinical and research psychologist and USC professor of psychology who runs a lab nest dedicated to studying family systems and specifically how dynamics and stress and hormones change with parenthood is their focus and I've been hunting them down for years they're my neighbor. They live literally three blocks over. So they just came to my home studio with my small poodle nut grammy, snoozing in the corner to chat about fatherhood, the industrial revolution, male hormones during pregnancy and after. What defines a good dad? Diaper changing, division of labor, dad bods, gorillas, toxic masculinity, and their new excellent book titled dad the New Science of Fatherhood and how it Shapes Men's Lives. You can get your hands on it, get it as a gift for a dad, for your spouse, for yourself. So essentially, this book is valuable for anyone who was the result of a sperm and an egg. I genuinely think the more fathers who have this book, the better world we can make. So without further hype, let's get into it with author, researcher, psychologist, and patternologist, Dr. Darby Saxby. Thank you again so much for doing this.
- [05:56]
B
No, my pleasure. My sister, by the way, is a super fan. She loves your show. She was so excited that I was gonna be on it. She listens to it all the time.
- [06:06]
A
What's her name?
- [06:06]
B
Kat.
- [06:07]
A
Oh, my God. I'm glad that she could vouch for us because sometimes you worry that people are like, is this someone just talking to dolls in the basement? You know, oh. But for an introduction, Darby Saxby.
- [06:23]
B
She, hers.
- [06:24]
A
I've been interested in talking to you and people from your lab for literal years. Can you describe some of the research that goes on there?
- [06:32]
B
Definitely, yeah. So I run a lab called the Neuroendocrinology of Social Ties. So the acronym is the NEST Lab. And NEST is kind of like an apt metaphor because we're very interest in family relationships and stress and how people connect with each other. And we've been studying specifically the transition to parenthood over the last 15 years or so. So we have this long running longitudinal study where we bring couples into the lab when they're expecting their first child and we follow them across the first postpartum year. So we are looking at their brains, we're looking at their hormones, we're looking at how they talk to each other.
- [07:14]
A
And you can also see her 2018 paper, the Birth Experiences Questionnaire, A brief measure assessing psychosocial dimensions of childbirth. It was in the Journal of Family Psychology, and it's a 10 item questionnaire measuring stress and fear and partner support during birth. And it looks at prenatal stress and anxiety and social support to try to predict how the adjustment into parenthood is going to go. And Dr. Saxby's lab has also found that something called meaning making or how A birth story is related or remembered can predict relationship strength down the line. So what stories you tell about it? Did you have a kid that's disrupting your norm or did you become a dad?
- [07:56]
B
So very interested in how people relate to each other and sort of what that portends when a couple transitions into this new reality of parenthood.
- [08:07]
A
And that's a major role shift.
- [08:10]
B
Yeah.
- [08:10]
A
And we hear a lot about motherhood and everything from birth trauma to intergenerational trauma and how taxing it is on the body and women's maybe disproportionate roles in raising kids. And I thought it was so fascinating that you wrote your book dad Brain about fatherhood, and I feel like. Is that not studied as much?
- [08:40]
B
Definitely not.
- [08:41]
A
Okay.
- [08:41]
B
One of the first things I did when I was starting to work on the book is I just did like a PubMed search. It's like, if I say maternal and then I say paternal, how many articles am I gonna pull up? And the ratio was like 10 to 1. And, you know, it's interesting. Cause biomedical research, as I'm sure you know, is actually male biological biased, of course. Like, there are way more studies of men's hearts, of men's lungs, of men's brains. The lab animals we use are mostly male. But when it comes to parenthood specifically and looking at parent child bonding, the work is almost exclusively focused on moms. And it's interesting because dads are actually participating a lot more in childcare. So we've seen these generational changes where men are reporting more time spent with kids compared to their fathers, their grandfathers. Like, we've seen this huge uptick, but the research has not totally caught up to that.
- [09:37]
A
How much of your research has to be done studying, like, social media and how people identify and what narratives they tell, at least publicly. Do you even have to dip into that?
- [09:52]
B
Yeah, no. I don't formally look at social media, but as a human, I do. Yeah. And I'm like, there is this really crazy rise of, like, the mom fluencer and, like, the parenting culture on social media, which I think is actually kind of bonkers. I think a lot of it is designed to stoke anxiety in women. It's like if you put your kid in timeout, you're causing brain damage, or if you let them cry before they fall asleep, you know, it's child abuse. And so there is this stress level that I think a lot of new parents have. And that's another reason why I want to talk about dads and get dads more into the picture because moms are isolated and struggling and they need more helpers.
- [10:36]
A
And now you've got two teenage children, right?
- [10:39]
B
Yes.
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A
So for 15 years been studying this and your children are about that age. Did it coincide with like, oh, man, I'm popping out some babies. I better figure out the science behind this.
- [10:56]
B
Totally.
- [10:57]
A
Yeah, yeah. Like me search.
- [10:59]
B
Yeah, research is me search. And it was true that. So I was a postdoc when I had my kids and I thought I was the best prepared person on the planet because I studied family relationships as a grad student. I had been part of this huge study at UCLA called the center for Everyday Lives of Families. We followed families around their homes and we tracked what they were doing and I measured their cortisol. And so I'd been watching parents and kids interact. I was like, I'm an expert, this'll be a snap. And then we had kids. And both my husband and I were just like totally rocked by that and struggling with sleep deprivation and confusion about what we were supposed to be doing and feeling totally inept. And I was like, if I'm as well resourced as an academic, and this is still hard for me, this is a really interesting nexus to focus on because it is this big sea change for a lot of people.
- [11:59]
A
What surprised you the most? Was it the sleep deprivation? Was it like the overstimulation? What was it?
- [12:05]
B
Yeah, I think it was the sleep deprivation. And then also just like the fact that you can't just put a baby down and walk away. It's like it never. Like the switch doesn't ever really flip off. Like, actually the thing that surprised me most is when you're breastfeeding, especially with you have to do it like every two hours. There's just no off button.
- [12:25]
A
Do you find that resentment builds from that because the birthing parent is like, I had this succubus in me for like a year, this beautiful angel that I can't wait to meet that's also draining my life fluids and continues to. And do you find I would be resentful as hell, even though there's nothing biologically necessarily that could be done. But is that part of the friction in the couples?
- [12:57]
B
Definitely. Okay. Like, mom has a big head start in a lot of ways. If it's a biological pregnancy, she has felt the baby kicking and has this relationship already developed, and then the baby comes out, is dependent on her for food. And I think dads often feel like a third wheel. They're not sure how to be involved. Mom is exhausted and already Feeling like she's doing too much. We actually did a study about this in my lab where we brought the pregnant couples in and asked them to map out how they plan to divide baby care. Then we brought them back after the baby's birth, did the same scale, and in every case, moms were doing more after birth than the couple predicted. So, and that's not. It's like it was surprising to us as researchers, but every single mom I've talked to about this is like, that's the least surprising thing I've ever heard. Right. Because you can have these beautifully egalitarian intentions, but there are some biological realities in the early months. And so I think it can be challenging for dads to fully participate unless the couple is really proactive about it.
- [14:09]
A
In part of the forward to your book, you obviously had an acknowledgement that a lot of the roles are cisgender and hetero couples. When you're doing your research, how do you figure out which demographics to study and which underrepresented groups to. To include how or the even just the wording around it?
- [14:29]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, it's a really important question because there are all these gaps in our research. And so much parenting research, like I said, is focused on moms, but even more of it is focused on cisgendered heterosexual parents.
- [14:43]
A
So Darby says that to really study something in depth, you need good sample sizes. And this first research was to hone in on cisgender heterocouples because there's just such a lack of info there when it comes to fatherhood. And then further down the line at some point to gather large enough sample sizes to include a range of genders and types of partnerships in parenting. And for gender roles and identities. I think you'll love the neuroendocrinology episode with Dr. Daniel Pfau. And we'll also link a Pride page with some excellent episodes from LGBTQIA ologists that we love. But for these rounds on paternity, they went wide in other ways.
- [15:20]
B
But we are very lucky to have a lab in LA because we were able to get a really ethnically, socioeconomically, racially diverse sample.
- [15:29]
A
What about the anthropology of how children were raised? It's changed so much even in 50 years and 60 years and then pre industrial revolution and maybe the loss of multi generational housing. What kind of role have fathers had historically?
- [15:49]
B
It's actually changed a lot. And for 95% of human history, we lived like hunter gatherers. So we were foraging, occasionally hunting Women actually brought in more calories than men in many societies. And so, you know, the whole sort of like when people say, like, working mothers are unnatural, it's like, no, mothers have always worked. And in fact, they've been major generators of income, calories, resources. And so the model in hunter gatherer societies is a lot of cooperative care. It's like alloparenting, which is cooperative breeding. Like we are all collectively raising kids.
- [16:28]
A
And Darby tells me that in some hunter gatherer societies, like the AKA and the Congo, fathers are within arm's reach of babies about 47% of the day, and they hunt and socialize with them in their arms or on their back. Some dads even let babies suck their man nipples for comfort. But agrarian models of living starting back around 10,000 years ago and then the industrial revolution starting in the mid-1700s, changed the game.
- [16:53]
B
Like, most humans were subsistence farmers who were just growing what they ate. Yeah, mom, dad, and kids are all working together. Right. Again, like, moms are working, kids are working too. Yeah, everybody's working together at home. And then once you industrialize, you have this separate domain, which is the workplace, where someone has to physically go out and earn money. Interestingly, the first factory workers were women, like the mill girls, like the Lowell textile mills in Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Women were considered better factory workers because they were more expendable. They weren't needed at home on the farm because they weren't working as hard as the men.
- [17:34]
A
Oh, wow.
- [17:35]
B
So they went to factories that sucked for them because the factories were exploitative and had bad conditions. And then ultimately, like, unionization happened. Wages rose. Men started being the ones that worked outside the home. And so we kind of did this weird social experiment where, like, work became men's thing and home became women's thing.
- [17:56]
A
Yeah.
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B
And women were the primary caregivers of kids. But I think, like, you hear all this talk about how that's the natural order of things with neo traditional gender roles, trad wives, all of that. Yeah. And it's like this is like 150 year blip.
- [18:13]
A
Woof.
- [18:13]
B
This is not actually our most normal configuration.
- [18:17]
A
Yeah. So alloparenting is natural. Community members taking care of and helping raise children who are not their offspring, be it aunts or uncles or friends or grandparents or neighbors. And for anyone who thinks that maternity leave is time away from work, think again. It's work. It's just unpaid. And birthing parents have always worked, even while pregnant and postpartum. But jobs that you clock in for to get paid, a resource to trade for Other resources. And evolutionarily speaking, that's pretty brand new. Or I should ask, culturally, did you ever interface with the Jerry Springer Show?
- [18:56]
B
Yes.
- [18:58]
A
Okay. When it comes to 2 year old
- [18:59]
B
AJ Collins, you are not.
- [19:07]
A
Side note, Jarrett reminded me that was Maury Povich. That was not Jerry Springer. So no emails. You are not the father. This notion of people getting out of paternity, I feel like, seems antithetical to our anthropology because it seems like we are wired to reproduce at some point. Males, I feel like, are thought of as like, sire as many of your genetics. And then you come to like, whew, got out of that kind of a situation just by virtue of genetics. But has there been a change in dad's willingness to actually raise a child versus just father one over the last decade or so?
- [20:00]
B
Yeah.
- [20:01]
A
Okay.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think if you look at time diary data, right, like big studies of, you know, like the American time use study, you see men are spending more time with kids than previous generations and they're reporting that they enjoy it.
- [20:15]
A
Oh, oh, well, that's something.
- [20:18]
B
Especially after the pandemic, I think there was this shift in our feelings about work. I think a lot of people, like millennials, Gen Z started thinking, like, I don't want my life to be my job. Right. It's like a different mentality from the boomers. And they're like, I want to have time at home with my kids. And so I think it's a value shift as well. But that said, there's a lot of variability around this, right? Because like, and this is interesting, like the time trends really track with education, which is like a new thing. That's a new disparity. So the most educated, affluent dads are the ones that are spending the most time with kids. And it's the non college men who are actually spending less time with kids than non college men of previous generations. So there is a little bit of a divide that's emerging in how men are kind of showing up as parents.
- [21:12]
A
And does that socioeconomic divide, is it just like if you are making less money, you have to work more in order to put food on the table and to pay for gas and to pay for health insurance and all of that. Is there more hustling that happens?
- [21:30]
B
I think that's a big part of it. Cause we also have this gig economy, right, where people are maybe patching together multiple jobs, so you don't always have the stability. But it's also intensive parenting culture. We have gone from your job as a parent is just to Keep kids alive to. Your job is to curate kids experiences, run their extracurricular schedule, optimize their learning. Right. And so like both moms and dads are spending more time on childcare than they did in previous generations.
- [22:04]
A
Yeah.
- [22:04]
B
So I think that's part of it too. And it's the more affluent parents that are the most intensive and the most invested. Let's pack my daughter's lunch today.
- [22:14]
A
She's having a caviar flight with blinis, cream cheese, smoked salmon and fresh figs for dessert. It seems like so much pressure to line up a preschool before you have even given birth. And so many extracurriculars. And it's so hard to get into college. I mean, there's a reason why my daughter is so hairy and small and a dog. I'm just like, I don't think I can handle it.
- [22:38]
B
Yeah.
- [22:39]
A
For me, like motherhood didn't resonate. I'm like, I feel like I'd be an okay dad, but I don't know if I would be a good mom and I would just get overwhelmed and drop the ball on permission slips and dance classes and stuff like that.
- [22:52]
B
Yeah, I'm a better dad than I am a mom. I'm lucky because I have a husband with a flexible schedule who actually does a lot. But I definitely resonate and I think a lot of moms feel like that. Like if I could just be the fun parent and sort of swoop in, like be the traditional dad.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah.
- [23:09]
B
That's actually a really great role.
- [23:11]
A
And. Yeah. Hence dad word. So thank you for being my kids. Even though I don't pay your child support, but I long to support you in other ways. Why do we wanna be dad? Why do you and I wanna be dads more than moms?
- [23:23]
B
So it's a mix of biology and culture. Right. Okay. So like we know that men, and you see this even in primates, tend to be more active, physical playmates with kids. Even gorillas will like, you know, pick kids up, chase them around, be like, it's called proprioceptive touch. Moving a baby around in space. If you think about tossing a toddler up in the air and catching them. So I think a lot of human men gravitate to that style of parenting as well, like roughhousing. And that's really great for kids. Kids really like that style and I think they learn from it. They learn better risk tolerance. Like it's psychologically healthy to engage in that kind of play. But it's also socialization in the sense that we judge mothers so much more than we judge fathers. And if anything goes wrong with a kid, if they show up in mismatched socks or they don't have their permission slip, it's like mom's fault. Yeah. And so I think that's changing. Like, as men are participating more in childcare, Gen Z men are increasingly likely to say they will make doctor's appointments for kids, they will check kids homework, they will do some of the mental load stuff that traditionally has been like, mom's domain.
- [24:33]
A
Yeah. Which is I'm not even a parent. And that pisses me off. Cause I was like, you won't. You didn't make doctor's appointments. Like, I've heard stories of people being called as an emergency contact, and they're like, we couldn't get a hold of mom. And it's like, call dad. I'm in a meeting. Like, call dad. I feel like the bar is like, did your dad show up and acknowledge that you were his? He did a great job, you know, but whereas women have to be like, is the food organic? But you're not too pushy with it. You can be an almond mom, but you also can't feed them Cheetos for lunch. But yeah, for dads, it does seem like he hugged me. And what a great dad. I'm wondering too, what starts chemically when birth happens? You talk about dad brains. Is there sympathy, weight gain? That starts ahead of time. Where does fatherhood start?
- [25:25]
B
Yeah. So there's a lot going on under the hood for dads. And I think because pregnancy can be so visible on a woman's body, we're like, oh, of course, she's totally transformed. We don't often think about that for men, that their hormones are also changing, their brains are also changing. So, you know, in my lab we've looked at things like testosterone with changes in men around the birth of a baby. Up or down, it tends to drop.
- [25:52]
A
Okay.
- [25:52]
B
And that is not at all unique to humans. Like bird, males drop in testosterone. Rodents, primates, like biparental mammals, you see these reproductively linked changes in testosterone seems adaptive brain structure changes, so the brain loses gray matter volume. And that has been seen in both moms and in dads. And so there's this conserved kind of parental brain that seems to be streamlining, getting more efficient.
- [26:21]
A
And for more on this, you can see the chapter in her book titled the Incredible Shrinking Father Brain, which details that scans pre and post baby in fathers show that two separate groups of men in separate studies showed areas of brain shrinkage, suggesting that they lost brain volume between the prenatal and the postpartum scans. And the volume loss occurred in that gray matter. That's the type of brain tissue that contains neuron cell bodies, she writes. And it continues strikingly, we're seeing volume loss in parts of the brain that engage in what neuroscientists call mentalizing, which is thinking about others minds. Dr. Saxby continues that losing gray matter may sound worrisome, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can signal pruning of sorts, she writes, eliminating the weaker connections to increase efficiency. And she offers this analogy that if you've ever watched a long, meandering director's cut of your favorite film and you wish for the faster paced theatrical version, then you appreciate the value of a good edit. A tighter, leaner story is easier to follow. And a leaner brain may also work faster and more efficiently. A new parent's brain, she says, has to manage many new mental inputs. So a more efficient processing system is an advantage. And yes, adult brains can change. They're not fixed as was once assumed.
- [27:43]
B
I think what's happening for men is more like an experience dependent plasticity, whereas for women it's more like you have this hormonal cascade that is potentiating some of these changes.
- [27:55]
A
What would be the evolutionary advantage of losing your dominant sex hormone to a degree and having your brain shrink? Like it seems like you were doing the opposite.
- [28:10]
B
Yes. I wrestled with this with my editor when I was writing this book because I'm like, I want to sell men on parents.
- [28:16]
A
Yeah.
- [28:17]
B
It's like, wait, you know. But I think there are some benefits later in life, but so the testosterone actually does really tie into reproductive strategy. So like some of the early work was on birds. Birds show high testosterone at the start of a breeding season because they need to be out there looking for mates. Right. And then once you've successfully mated and it's time to hatch, testosterone drops because it's somewhat costly for the body to maintain. High testosterone, like it costs your immune system, it's taxing and you don't really need it if you have already completed mating. Right. And in humans too, like it shifts depending on your strategy. If your goal is to have as many offspring as possible, like you just want to spread your seed as widely as you can. You want jacked up tea. Right. Because you want to be out there like competing for status, looking for mates.
- [29:15]
A
Yeah.
- [29:16]
B
But now we have this kind of more modern version of parenthood that's high investment and high nurturing. And so it's Less about quantity and it's more about quality.
- [29:26]
A
Right.
- [29:27]
B
Like, we want to put our resources into just a couple kids who will survive to adulthood. As opposed to, like, just trying to max out the numbers. Right. To kind of, like play the odds.
- [29:38]
A
Did that change with different types of birds? Like, you know how some birds, they hatch, they're good to go day two, and then there's others that are these weird, pink, wrinkly ball sacks with mouths, and they take, like a while to even get feathers. Like, did that change with the birds where. Okay, this is a different kind of investment.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah, totally. So there's the. It's altricial versus pre Kosial. So the pre Kosial birds. Shoot. Which I might have seen that would
- [30:04]
A
make sense because they're precocious and they're like, I'm ready to go.
- [30:08]
B
Yes, right. Yeah, exactly. It's like they're. I think it's them and. Right. Like they just come out and they're walking and they're talking and they're just doing everything.
- [30:15]
A
Yeah.
- [30:16]
B
And then you have these, like, you said, these like pink little ball sacks that, like, they can't feed themselves, they can't ambulate. Like, they need a lot of extra time to kind of cook. And that's when you need that more intensive parental care.
- [30:31]
A
Yeah.
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B
So, yeah. Like, and our human babies, like, we are one of the most altricial species. Right. Because we come out super unready to go anywhere.
- [30:42]
A
Yeah.
- [30:43]
B
We cannot even, like, turn over.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah.
- [30:47]
B
So you need round the clock care in order to survive as a human baby. Which means, like, it's too much work for a single person. Right. It's too much for just a mom to do.
- [30:57]
A
Human beings are not like fish just shooting a jazz cannon into the water and praying to make 1000 million babies so a few survive. And if you do have, like a fish dad just blew a load and then drifted off to the horizon. I'm sorry. You deserve to be within his reach at least 47% of the time. What do you think defines a dad? What do you think defines fatherly behavior? Like, of all the traits.
- [31:28]
B
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, so there's like, there's dad, as in genetic contributor of material. Right.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah.
- [31:37]
B
Then there's sort of like active parent, which is like the hands on dad. And so my book is mostly focused on that. But I would say, like, if you think about what is a good dad, it is somebody who is sensitive, who's nurturing, who is protective, who looks out for the vulnerable. Like, all traits that I would actually say are qualities of a good man, like, not just qualities of a good dad.
- [32:02]
A
Do you feel like when people are looking for mates and maybe they're thinking in the back of their head, like, I would like someone who might be like a good dad. Like, what types of things are courting behaviors versus, like actual traits?
- [32:22]
B
Yeah, it's a good question. Like, are men just pretending to be sensitive and caring? I know it's tricky because we send confusing reproductive signals.
- [32:33]
A
Yeah.
- [32:34]
B
I think some women are drawn to men that are really aggressive and competitive. And those might not be the traits that actually map beautifully on to being patient with a little baby. But then again, we also like. And there are all these examples from like fish, primates, frogs, females are drawn to males that actually are taking care of offspring. Because I think it's actually like, we're smart and we know that if he's doing a good job, then that's going to increase our own reproductive odds. Yeah, right. In the book, in the dad bod chapter, I talk about how actually women like dad bods. Like, if you survey women, they, like, half of them will say like, dad bods are better than a six pack. Yeah.
- [33:22]
A
Can we define a dad bod?
- [33:24]
B
So I would say like softly muscled but not like ripped.
- [33:30]
A
Uh huh.
- [33:31]
B
So it, it's not necessarily like a Homer Simpson bod. Right. It's like a sort of larger, softer body.
- [33:38]
A
That's so funny because if I see guys who are like 3% body fat and veins bulging out of every muscle, I think they're spending a lot of time in the gym and their meals are probably more about protein shakes than like sitting down to some gnocchi and a candle at dinner, you know what I mean? Like, I have these biases where I'm like, that jacked is too jacked. I think about the lifestyle behind it, which is funny. Okay, so this dad bod as a physical archetype sauntered up to the fire pit about 10 years ago. Popularized by then college student Mackenzie Pearson, this viral essay titled why Girls Love the dad Bod. If your man can rock the dad bod, he's a keeper. One might say this is the seminal text, but what is a dad bod? Do I have one? I asked your friend Wikipedia and it described it as the physique of a man who was once athletic or moderately fit, but now has a beer belly or spare tire. While the arms, legs and chest are usually in relatively good shape. So like a front dump truck. But you gotta check Your visceral fat boys, because that's a predictor for some health problems down the line. The worst dad is a good dad who becomes a dead dad. Not to bring it down, my friend. Speaking of friends, though, partners, loves of your lives. Is there a kind of alienation that's to be overcome where you do feel like suddenly you were maybe best friends with your partner and now her bff, she's never been more in love with, you know, just starry eyed, not necessarily limerence, but obsessed biologically with this child. What is that alienation like?
- [35:27]
B
Yeah, and I think that's one reason that relationship satisfaction drops in new parents. Right. We know it's this big risk factor for couples satisfaction. How dads navigate that depends, I think, on maybe what their expectations are and sort of their own just ability to get in there and, you know, help and get to know the baby, too. But I think it can become really challenging for some men who then almost feel competitive with the baby. Yeah, like, my partner suddenly isn't looking at me like I'm number one.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah. What advice or what types of therapies or strategies are good for soothing that or overcoming it?
- [36:14]
B
Yeah. I mean, you can do couples therapy in advance of a birth. And there's some research that suggests that that's helpful because it's just like, couples need to work on their communication skills. They need to figure out, like, suddenly you're gonna have more responsibilities on your plate, like, how do you divide up household labor? So interventions that help couples talk about these issues can be really valuable. And also, like, postpartum depression is not just a mom thing. Men can experience it, too. And new dads have higher prevalence of depression than men at other times in the lifespan. So men may also benefit not just from couples therapy, but from their own therapy either before or after birth. Like, you just want to catch those issues, I think, before. Before they turn into problems.
- [37:01]
A
And if you're like, hey, do you know how much time and money it takes to raise this little monkey that I have therapy in this economy? Here are some alternatives. You could start a group thread with your friends who are dads. You can hop on a message board, read and write about your experience. You could start a book club with other parents. You can reach out to elders who matter to you. You can even look for community parenting classes or seminars or support groups. That time investment, researchers found, will make you a better dad. Your kid will be happier. Everyone in their life will benefit, including your partner, if you have one and you pops that. Postpartum depression I'm wondering, I can understand the hormones and the chemicals in, you know, a mom and a birthing parent, but when it comes to the fathers, is that also purely neurotransmitter levels, or is that partly like grieving? The life that you had, you have. You're a different identity now. Is it more situational?
- [38:01]
B
Yeah, I think it's all of the above. Okay, Right. And it is for moms, too, right? It's like, moms, we know there are these big hormone shifts that can increase risk, but we also know that moms are grappling with, like, a new social role, a new identity, this new set of responsibilities. It's a perfect storm. It's like stress, hormone change, brain change, sleep deprivation. You know, just like, changing routines. Like, you're not exercising as often, you're not seeing friends as often. So people can also get isolated.
- [38:31]
A
You know what's funny? I was talking to a guy at a cafe down the street that we probably have both been to.
- [38:37]
B
I've probably seen you there.
- [38:38]
A
Yeah, he had a great laptop bag, and he was maybe a little bit older than. Than me. And I said, that's a great bag. And he said, oh, thanks. It's from Portland Leather. And I was like, cool. Heard of them, you know, and he said, I used to be a big fan of theirs. And then I got an email from them. Never will buy from them again. And I was like, what did it say? And he said, well, it said, trigger warning. Happy Father's Day to everyone who celebrates. And he was so. As a dad, he was so offended that there was a trigger warning for Father's Day, but they wouldn't have that for Mother's Day. And I was like, well, that. It's probably a little bit of like a marketing, you know, kind of like Internet speak. And these are a lot of social media posts that are like, happy Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day. Happy. And then Father's Day, it's. Sometimes I see posts that are like, happy Father's Day to my mom, who really handled all the shit. There seems to be so much trauma around fatherhood from adult children. Where is that coming from?
- [39:41]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think culturally, we are really in flux. Right. Like, our understanding of masculinity has shifted a lot over the last few generations. Our understanding of men's and women's social roles. And I think the traditional father that a lot of us had was a guy who was pretty checked out, maybe absent, maybe hands off. I mean, I write about in my book. I had an unusual experience because my dad became like a primary caregiver after my parents got divorced. So I kind of got to see him go through a little bit of a transformation of his own. But I think that's atypical. And then it's like contemporary parents are trying to figure it out in this more egalitarian way, but that can also lead to a lot of struggle. So it's just easy for people to disparage dads. And I mean, I'm kind of with that guy. Like, let's actually celebrate good dads and not just like make it this thing that we're like all kind of mad about.
- [40:38]
A
Yeah. And I have so many questions from listeners. Can I fire some off at you, please. They had great ones. And before we get there, we will take a quick break. For sponsors of the show, none of whom are Portland Leather, I did try to reach out to their marketing team. I didn't get a response on LinkedIn. The main corporate number was disconnected. Couldn't figure out a way to reach them. Did I even look for the cell number of the marketing director and text it to no avail? I did. Did I check who their spouse was on Instagram and think about messaging? I also did anyway. Couldn't get ahold of them. But I will say a lot of email marketing campaigns these days allow folks to opt out of Mother's and Father's Day promo emails just because they're emotionally charged. So that's likely what's behind it. I spent hours on this for no reason, but I did find an article with an interview from the company's, let's just say, outspokenly confident CEO who was asked if he had a story from childhood that he'd like to attribute his success to. And he said absolutely not. Maybe there were too many good stories. Maybe he has dad trauma. I'm not sure. Let's give some money away though. So this week Darby chose Homeboy Industries and Homeboy Industries Love em. It's the world's largest reentry organization for formerly gang involved and previously incarcerated people. Serving more than 10,000 people annually, their program provides comprehensive social services and job training and helps people heal from intergenerational complex trauma. They say whether it's access to tattoo removal, educational classes, case management, mental health or housing services, or yes, parenting programs for dad and Darby works with them. For those Homeboy Industries transforms lives through healing, love and community. Also, if you're ever at LAX in Terminal 3, Gate 33, pay a visit to Homeboy Cafe, which benefits the nonprofit. Also, great Sandwiches. Thank you to sponsors of the show for making that donation possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all in one website platform. Whether you're trying to grow a business you have or if you're just a baby business getting started, it has everything you need. That's where I secured my domain name. It helped me build a professional site. I can update it so easily. I've been using Squarespace since before Ologies existed. After procrastinating for years, I literally built my website in one evening. They have templates, they have flexible editing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to share your work. You can book clients, you can get paid. They have built in tools for scheduling and invoicing an email all in one place. Whenever someone I know needs a website, whether they're a scientist that needs to put their work up or someone who's just starting a business, I'm like, dude, Squarespace. So head to squarespace.com ologies for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code ologies to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can do it. Maybe you're a content creator, you're a restaurant owner, maybe you've run a dry cleaner, maybe you have a podcast. Business owners need fast, reliable Internet in order to adapt new daily challenges. And Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes connected seamlessly with fast, reliable, reliable Internet, advanced wi, fi, phone, TV and mobile services. Maybe you're like, I need something specific. Spectrum Business offers tailored connectivity solutions. They have packages built for your business budget. And they also offer 100% US based customer support 24. 7 to help you stay up and running. Millions of business owners rely on Spectrum Business to keep them connected. I myself am a Spectrum Business customer. This show would not get to you your ears without Spectrum. And I have totally different needs than someone who has a different kind of business. I need fast Internet, I gotta upload, I gotta download quick. There's also mobile so I could go work out of the house and yeah, and I've had to call and be like, help me reset my modem. And they've been very helpful. So it's working for me. Visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. That's spectrum.com business restriction supply services not available in all areas. Have you ever watched those makeup videos where they start doing someone's makeup and by the end you go better before Makeup should not erase your face. But Makeup should bring out what you already love. And this is what I love about Jones Road beauty. They know exactly how to do that. They have something called Jones Road Beauty Miracle Balm. It's no fuss. It is a multitasker. And if you want a little more coverage without going into some complicated makeup routine where you need 10 brushes and two hours, Jones Road just launched their foundation stick. And the foundation stick has buildable, real coverage, but it doesn't feel weighted down. Is it tested by dermatologists? It is. Got a lot of skin loving ingredients. Also it matches a range of skin tones. There's 30 different shades. It feels like my skin. The finish is natural. It's not too matte, not too dewy, smooth, even healthy looking. Love that. So if you want makeup that brings out your natural glow instead of hiding it, Jones Road is the way to go. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free gift on their first purchase. When they use the code ologies at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com use the code OLOGIES at checkout. After your purchase they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. You know what I love? I love a mystery. Some events from history still don't have answers. And Dr. Harini Bhatt is a clinical pharmacist obsessed with the ones nobody can explain. Every Monday on the podcast Hidden History, she investigates medical auditor vanished civilizations, mass hysterias, which are some of my favorite and phenomena that keep repeating across centuries. So she digs into the evidence. She tells you exactly what she thinks happened and she asks, what if it happened today? So follow hidden history with Dr. Harini Bhatt wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss a mystery. It's summer. How you feeling? Are you too hot? Are you feeling itchy? This is where quince comes in. It's getting warmer. You want lighter fabrics, you want better materials. You want things that feel good exactly when you put them on and don't stop feeling good until you take them off. This is why I love quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Like they have breathable linen, they have soft cotton. That's organic washable silk. But they're not trying to break your bank. They cut out the middlemen they source from great factories. Everything feels elevated class, classic quality pieces that you want to wear and that you're going to keep in your closet. And it's not just clothing. I was just talking to my niece about things she was getting for her home in her kitchen. They also have bedding. I just went to the Webby Awards recently and I wore a quince silk dress. I love quince so much I literally wear them on the red carpet. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to Quince.com Ologies for free shipping on your order and 365 day return returns. Now available in Canada too. So that's Quince Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Ologies for free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Ologies okay, let's talk about what makes a good dad with your questions via patreon.com ologies there are so many good ones. Actually the first listener question we're breaking form, it isn't from Patreon, but it actually came by text. I actually asked on my family group chat if anyone had questions about fatherhood and my brother in law Steve said, what are some key factors or qualities of a father that are most needed to raise healthy and successful children? And is any of that dependent on the goodness or badness of their own dad?
- [48:12]
B
Hi Steve, that's a great question. I do think that one's relationship with one's own parents does kind of provide us with scripts that can either be helpful or not helpful. Like I have a chapter in the book where I talk about men who had traumatic childhoods and like, like how much extra work that takes to kind of like show up as a good dad. But if men care and invest their time and energy, they can break those cycles. So in terms of what makes for a good dad, I think it's not dissimilar from what makes for a good mom. It's like consistency, caring, being present. It doesn't have to mean always knowing the right answer or always being perfect or fulfilling kids every need. Right? Like there's this concept of the good enough mother in psychology, which is that it's actually like no one can ever be a perfect mother. That is great to hear. And it's not even great for kids to have a perfect mother because it's where a mother falls short that kids learn their own autonomy. Right? Like they have to develop their own solutions when moms don't fulfill their every need. Yeah, and I think that's true for fathers too. Like it's less about being a perfect person and it's more about working hard enough and caring enough that your kid sees you showing up really consistently. And I say in the book like great fathers are made, not born. It's like, we think of caregiving as this like innately wired trait. And it's really more like a skill that we learn and that we develop through practice and through time. And so it's kind of up to us decide if we want to make that investment. And if we do, then I think our kids see that and appreciate that, that we're trying.
- [50:08]
A
Yeah. What are some qualities that your husband has?
- [50:11]
B
He's very chill, he's patient. He's been a recording engineer for a long time, so he's worked with bands, which I actually think is a really good quality for being a father because, you know, he can like gently correct a band without antagonizing them or like give suggestions but like still preserve a good relationship. So he's kind of like the guy that, like, he taught our daughter how to drive. Like, he coaches our son's baseball team. Like, he's kind of a natural teacher and I think that's a good quality. He does a lot around the house and he was raised in a really traditional family. Like his mom was a stay at home mom. His dad worked a lot and he like, I guess had the good or ill fortune to marry someone who was really career oriented. Yeah. So we've kind of had to figure out our own dynamic, which has taken time. But I would say like, he does as much if not more with the kids as I do, which is really great.
- [51:09]
A
So trying matters. And what if you're a dad and you see this little critter you made or made a choice to raise and you want to get to know them? A lot of folks, Mimi, Addy Cappello, Maria J. Ranger, France wanted to know. Mimi asked, what are some of the most important things dads can and should do to bond with their kids? Ranger wanted to know, is skin to skin bonding at birth with the father beneficial to the newborn? And when it comes to oxytocin and things like that, what is behind that bonding?
- [51:40]
B
Yeah, these are all such great questions. I actually in the book, I interview a guy that did skin to skin and there is research on men doing skin to skin. So like a couple different studies looked at. Like after mom has a C section, she can't always do a skin to skin because she has to get repaired.
- [51:58]
A
Yeah.
- [51:59]
B
And so a few different research teams have tried doing it with dad. And the baby's heart rate regulates better. The baby's temperature becomes better regulated. All of the benefits of skin to skin with moments emerge when babies do it with dads. It's also, I think like a way that dads. Like, we talked about dads feeling left out a lot of the time after birth because there's less for them to do. It's a way that dads can feel like they're really contributing. Like they're providing this, like, warm body that the baby needs and is gravitating to. So it's a totally great thing to do after birth or in the early months. And oxytocin, it's like one of those hormones that the research is kind of all over the place on. There's a lot of methodological issues with oxytocin. I talk about that a little bit in the book. But what's interesting is, like, both men and women early in parenthood have really similar levels of oxytocin. Really? So we think of oxytocin as this, like, mom hormone.
- [53:00]
A
Yeah.
- [53:01]
B
And it's not really like, you see it in dads, too.
- [53:04]
A
Wow. I mean, that's gotta be so hard, though. Cause you can't exactly put a newborn and a dad and a fmri, you know what I mean? And see what lights up. But you can do those sort of hormonal assays and see what's in there, huh?
- [53:17]
B
Exactly. Like, you can take blood, you can take saliva, you can take hair. And then you can do, like, what we did is we put dads in the MRI and then we show them videos of their baby. So it's like, not quite. Like, I actually, really, when I was developing this study and I pitched a couple people on this, I really wanted to do smell O vision. Like, I wanted to pipe a baby's smell through a tube into the scanner. Like, I thought we could get onesies from babies, and then it would be like a mix of own baby and other baby. I think we probably could have done it, but at that point, we had so many moving parts in our scan protocol that I was like, this is gonna drive my team insane.
- [53:55]
A
Yeah, maybe a future.
- [53:57]
B
Yeah, I wanna. It's a dream study.
- [53:59]
A
I mean, speaking of smell, Annover wanted to know, do dads who change diapers stay engaged for the life of the child? And I feel like in previous generations, I've heard that, like, dads are, like, haven't changed a single diaper. Is that changing?
- [54:14]
B
Yes.
- [54:15]
A
Yeah.
- [54:15]
B
So that is really changing. Oh, that's good. So I want to say, like, the number of boomer men who said they'd never changed a diaper was, like, pretty considerable.
- [54:24]
A
How considerable? I needed numbers. So According to the 2012 paper, dads who do diapers, Factors affecting care of young children by fathers in the Journal of family issues. Or. One 1982 US survey found that 43. 43% of dads had never changed a diaper. And that 43% these days is estimated just to be 3%. Still, 3% of dads never change a diaper. You're on my actual shit list. But several studies have also shown that in general, fathers and mothers tend to rate their own contributions higher than their spouses do. Which may be because fathers often compare themselves to men of past generations. So they're like, so much better than my dad. Or they take no notice of the invisible work that mothers do. So you got a kid. Cool. Kids under a year old make about seven dirty diapers a day. So are you changing, like, one? Okay, well, least triple that. Just step on up.
- [55:27]
B
But it was, like, a surprisingly big chunk. And that number is now really small if you ask Gen Z men. So they're doing way more diaper changes. And yeah, like, I do think that's a good omen for how the dad is gonna stay involved because we think of it as this gross thing. But there's also some intimacy there. Like you have the baby, you know, kind of as a captive audience, and you're keeping it entertained while you do your stuff. And, like, that can be a real moment of connection.
- [55:56]
A
Side note, did you know that a lot of men's restrooms didn't even have diaper changing stations until, like a decade ago? Apparently in 2016, then President Obama signed a bill mandating changing tables for the dudes also. And the act was called the Bathrooms Accessible in Every situation, which spelled out babies, which is called a backronym, where a word is cobbled together kind of desperately to spell something memorable. But babies as a backronym is pretty cute. It's much cuter than the post 9 11. Uniting and strengthening America by providing appropriate tools required to intercept and obstruct terrorism, AKA the USA Patriot act, in case you never caught that. Oh, oh, Speaking of patron, Richard said, it seems like after my son was born, I could sense he was about to do something dangerous and catch him most times, like falling out of his high chair or pull down a lamp from a table yanking on its cord. He continues, Richard says, do other fathers develop ninja like reflexes when it comes to their babies? Matt Thompson wanted to know, from a physiological standpoint, is there truly a dad reflex when catching kids?
- [57:08]
B
Oh, yes, the Moro reflex. Right. I'm not sure if he's thinking about this, but there's a thing where if you drop the baby, the baby's arms naturally extend because it's like, it shows our primate heritage because it's extending to grasp the fur. So actually, when my mom, who's like a real science nerd, met my first baby for the very first time, she dropped her to test the moro reflex.
- [57:32]
A
And I was like, holy.
- [57:34]
B
Oh, my God. It's working great.
- [57:37]
A
Oh, my God.
- [57:38]
B
I mean, she picked her, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:40]
A
But she got a full drop, so. Great.
- [57:42]
B
But the idea of dads tossing babies around too, is like a. I think again, you see it across different species. So it's not just a human adaptation.
- [57:53]
A
So, yes, parents, attentions can rewire to anticipate danger and monitor little ones almost subconsciously, all the time. And also, tossing kids in the air helps parents. A lot of times, dads get really familiar with handling a baby in time and space. So, dads, you're doing great. Everyone loves you. Keep it up now. That's amazing. Adam Foote says, I'm not even a father yet, and I have a strong desire to embarrass any child I might have. Why Bjorn Fredberg said this. I'm a father and I have the impulse with all kids I encounter, not just my own child. And this might also intersect with dad jokes. I think by embarrassing, they mean, like, corny, slightly out of touch, performatively.
- [58:38]
B
Totally. Like, the dad joke is like a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I'm very cringey to my kids and so is my husband and I. I think it's just. It's a funny way to get a rise out of kids, like, especially teens, because they start kind of caring about what's cool and they have their own lingo.
- [58:59]
A
Yeah.
- [58:59]
B
And like, you can be so out of touch as an adult that I think it's actually just a source of entertainment for parents.
- [59:08]
A
Okay, so. And maybe there is some bonding too, with like, hey, I know your lingo. I'm invested and I care. And it's like, ugh, just don't. Like, I know that If I say 6, 7 to my nephew, he runs and wants to just hide under the couch. Like, he's like, please. Like, that's so over. Like, how dare you?
- [59:29]
B
Yeah, I'm still saying skibidi to my kids.
- [59:33]
A
What is a dad joke exactly? I wasn't positive, but I figured I should know. So it's something punny. It's usually a play on words or like an anti joke. It's simple, usually embarrassing for the person it's inflicted upon. And the term might be older than you. I looked into it. The first known instance of the words dad joke in print was in a 1987 newspaper op ed titled Don't Ban the dad Jokes, Preserve and Revere them. And it was written by one Jim Kalbaugh who fathered the term. I wanted to know more about him and read some of his history. He long wanted to be a newspaper man and he achieved like his journalism dreams. He was a writer and an editor. But his domestic accomplishments may have even been greater. I found his 2019 obituary. It was written after a decades long battle with Parkinson's. And it turns out that Jim Kalbaugh was a girl dad. He had three daughters. His family wrote that he had always maintained a close, humorous, loving relationship with his daughters and four grandchildren. And the picture that accompanied his obituary showed like a round cheeked smile, side part, silver hair and a tight clutch around his bride of many decades. And my dad, you called him grandpa, was also a writer in the news business. He was a girl dad of three, four grandkids and we had the same kind of rapport with him. So for the dads who've passed, keep the cringe coming with the dad jokes. It's your legacy. And if you need help on dad jokes, even the federal government has your back. On the site fatherhood.gov I found a page titled the Celebration of the Delightfully Terrible Dad Joke. They have a joke generator that you can refresh on a government webpage. I couldn't resist and it offered up do you know what the loudest pet is? A trumpet. I hit the button again. What is brown and sticky? A stick. I'm so glad I found that webpage because despite the burn of welling tears, it was a sight for sore eyes. Taylor and Regina Muth wanted to know what do we know about genetically the father's genes, what they control versus the mother's genes. And I've seen reports that, you know, incidents of miscarriage and how difficult a pregnancy can be from the father's genetics. But a lot of times it's presumed it's just the mother's biology. What's up with that?
- [62:10]
B
Yeah, it's super interesting. Dads are contributing obviously like a lot of genetic material to a pregnancy. And dad's genes are actually shaping the construction of the placenta, which is like the organ that nurtures the baby. And so like, yeah, there's a lot that can go wrong on that end. But also like, I think when we talk about pregnancy, health or anything that can go wrong it's like it's always mom's fault, right? If something does. But there's some evidence that even preconception health behaviors like men's substance use, smoking, exercise, diet will affect his sperm quality and therefore affect the baby's outcomes. We never bug men about like, you should eat right for the baby.
- [62:54]
A
Yeah, seriously.
- [62:55]
B
But that's a thing that we should care about for our dads as well.
- [62:58]
A
If you encounter someone who does not believe this, you can point them toward the 2022 frontiers in genetics paper titled Paternal Epigenetic Influences on Placental Health and Their Impacts on Offspring Development and Disease, which declared that alterations in placental growth, histological organization, and glycogen content broadly serve as reliable markers of altered paternal development programming, predicting the emergence of structural and metabolic defects in the offspring. And the paper continues. Finally, we suggest the existence of an unrecognized developmental axis between the male germline and the extraembrytic lineage. You're like, what? I know you want a translation. That was a lot. There's a 2023 Central European Journal of Urology study called Recurrent Miscarriage and Male Factor Infertility a narrative review, and it explained simply that the male factor is a possible cause of recurrent pregnancy loss. So, yep, some studies put the miscarriage rate up to 70% of fertilized eggs. So if you want to be a parent and birth a kiddo, celebrate those 30% odds if they work out in your favor. No matter what color the inside of the cake surprises. How do you feel about gender reveals?
- [64:16]
B
Oh, the gender reveal party.
- [64:19]
A
Yeah.
- [64:19]
B
Such a funny fad to me. I actually read that the woman who came up with them, like created the trend, has a non binary kid. So it sort of just goes to show, right? Like how it all works out.
- [64:32]
A
I love that, by the way.
- [64:34]
B
Is that funny?
- [64:34]
A
Yes, I love that this is true. And it's news to me. And real quick, in 2008, a blogger by the name of Jenna Karvundes needed to make a post and figured like, you know, I'm pregnant. Maybe a surprise gender cake would be fun. Took some pictures, blogged about it, whatever. Never did she expect this ritual to become a cultural phenomenon, leading to extravagant balloon releases and biplanes with banners and explosive devices, accidental death and dismemberments from shrapnel, forest fires, and husbands trashing desserts over the indication that they would have a female child. Now, in 2020, 12 years after she started this, Karvundas wrote a piece in the Guardian titled I started the gender reveal party trend and I regret it. And she writes that her firstborn, who sparked the whole blog post, is gender non conforming, preferring suits to dresses and short hair to long braids. And Karvunda, who seems like a gem, writes, there's such an obsession with gender that it becomes limiting in many ways and exploitative in others. You don't want what's in between your legs to guide your path in life. And she writes, I want my kids to grow up in a world where gender doesn't matter. And she also gives her own backstory in this article I thought was really interesting. She writes, my parents threw me out when I was 17 years old. I wasn't about gender or sexuality, but I know how it feels to be a teenager who's not loved or accepted. I absolutely would not tolerate it, but my child is welcomed for all of her personality. So gender, it's an expression and it's distinct from biological sex. Biological sex, you can peep through a sonogram, but gender isn't really anything that can be revealed as an infant or by anyone but you, unless you're in deep denial and you have a queer bestie who's like, bitch, you're gay. And even then that's just your orientation. It's also a bit of an overreach, but if you're gonna have a cake that's pink or blue inside, at least call it a fetus genital celebration party. And if you wouldn't put that on an invitation, then just, you know, have a regular or having a baby party. As the third of all girls, we're sick of it mattering. There was a question about that. Magda Kawasaka asked, am I gay? Because my dad had no sons and he had to teach someone how to change the oil in the car. Are there any correlations at all that they find between how someone's parented with a dad? And I know that we've also had questions in here and I'll find them like one from Han the Bee who said, fatherhood to me seems to be the counterpart of motherhood. Both of which bring to mind very gendered ideas of the roles that fathers and mothers play. And Michael Crosa, Max G and Jenny Gold. Michael asks, there's an argument against same sex parenting. That the kid will miss out on the benefits offered by a child. Traditional mom, dad pairing. But loving and supportive same sex parents still seems preferable or at least viable compared to having a single parent or being in the foster system. But asking about the expectations of gender. And I think the fading stigma that if you don't have a father figure, you're not gonna turn out right. But yeah. Is there anything about a gender expression that's influenced by a father figure?
- [67:58]
B
I think it can be, but it doesn't necessarily, necessarily have to be in the form of a biological father who lives in the household. Like, we know that child outcomes, kids who are raised by same sex parents turn out just as good, if not better, as kids with heterosexual parents. So there's nothing about your parents gender identity that is necessarily gonna set you on the wrong course as a kid.
- [68:22]
A
Yeah.
- [68:22]
B
I interviewed a trans dad for the book who talked about just like stepping into the father role and what that was like for him.
- [68:29]
A
Yeah. Darby writes that to understand more about parenting while trans, I talked to Taylor Xavier Shazan about his experience of becoming a dad. Taylor and I, she writes, lived in the same neighborhood in suburban Los Angeles. Hey. For a few years. And I used to see him out and about a friendly guy with an open smile and a scruffy beard wrangling his adorable toddler son in a red wagon. And she continues to. But until we joined the same Facebook parenting group, I had no idea. He had been raised as a girl in Texas before transitioning to male in his late teens. Taylor told me that he had always wanted kids, but as a trans man, his road to fatherhood was complex. And when he got together with his wife, Alana, they bonded over their desire to start a family. And Taylor had told her, you know, we're from these radical queer punk communities, and all we wanted to do was get married and move to the suburbs and have kids. But Alana struggled to get pregnant, and several rounds of fertility treatments later, they started talking about harvesting Taylor's eggs. And Taylor said, I had been on testosterone for 15 years at that point, so I had to go off it to prep for that. And after the hormones stopped working, Taylor says, it was very emotional. It was a hard time for him. And Darby continues to write about their story. They actually ended up adopting a child. And in her book, Darby expands on Taylor's experience working in and out of these gender expectations. And Darby notes that with over 2 million trans folks just in the United States, Taylor's is just one of a lot of unique experiences. And remember, alloparenting, it's in our genes. We wouldn't have survived this long as a species without it.
- [70:02]
B
People need people in terms of, like, whether or not you need a man in a boy or girl's life, like, I do Think it's good to have models of, you know, good men and good women. Boys can benefit from someone who shares their gender that they can look up to. And girls can also benefit from seeing, you know, there are good men out there in the world. Right. But that can come through a teacher, through a clergy member, through community member. Like, it doesn't necessarily have to come from the parents.
- [70:35]
A
Well, you know, I think we also are influenced by pop culture as well, especially when our lives might be so siloed. Yenna Hubbard, Empress of Smallwood, and Li Wong wanted to know. Yenna asked, why are some of the most popular fathers on tv, the ones that offer corporal punishment, like Homer strangling Bart in the earlier episodes, you know, fathers threatening a boot up the ass, compared to fathers who are shown like, you know, dumpy. How are fathers kind of those archetypes like the bumbling dad? How do you think those affect expectations?
- [71:13]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. And there was actually a culture critic, sociologist who looked at how TV dads are categorized and found that in a majority of sitcoms, dads are depicted as humorously foolish. So it's like the classic, like, Homer Simpson, like, figure of fun. I do think, like, we don't necessarily have a lot of great cultural models of really good hands on dads. Yeah, it's like the actual dads I see on the street are better than a lot of the dads I see on tv. Yeah, like, that's something we should be thinking about rectifying as a culture. So, like, I don't know how big your TV writer audience is, but here's a pitch.
- [71:53]
A
Yeah, I was gonna say, I have a lot of friends who work at tv. Totally. Yeah.
- [71:57]
B
Right. Better dads.
- [71:58]
A
Better dads.
- [71:59]
B
Yeah.
- [71:59]
A
You know, I used to live in Los Feliz, and as I lived there, the population was getting older. Who stayed in the neighborhood and, you know, also gentrifying to cause the home prices were going up. So more families and less, you know, younger single people. Yeah, and my friends and I called them seahorses. Cause there were dads who would be just walking the baby on their own or had a. What's it like, a Bjorn with a baby on it. And I do know that people asked about other animals, and I think seahorses definitely came up. Fiona McLaughlin's dad, Oscar Shoshone, bird admirer Iris Turner, and bird named Quill Sloan had other species on the brain. Vera wanted to know, why do some species of animals have actively engaged fathers, some even more so than mothers and others don't Dr. Wiggles wanted to know what animal species is the best at a seahorse. Emperor penguin.
- [72:52]
B
I mean, the seahorse can get pregnant, the male seahorse can get pregnant. So it develops this brood pouch and it can fertilize eggs. So, I mean, it's hard to compete with that.
- [73:01]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [73:02]
B
There are species where males are primary parents. Frog dads are great. Like, a lot of frogs are either biparental or dads are doing a lot of the care. And frog dads will, like, locate all their babies and, like, bring food or tell the mother to bring them stuff to eat. So they're, like, keeping track of all their babies. And bird dads are great. Like, birds are also biparental, so bird dads are doing a lot of resource providing and a lot of feeding. And male birds will teach their babies how to sing. Like, male songbirds will be the primary instructors of singing.
- [73:42]
A
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [73:43]
B
Yeah.
- [73:44]
A
Just I love the idea of a dad flipping pancakes and singing on Saturday morning. Marie Kirby wanted to know, is a daddy's girl a real thing? And is there a reason why we might gravitate toward the parent of the opposite sex? Some people asked, if my child says a dada first when I've been the one, like, up nursing, why is that sometimes that a kid will have a preference? So to Tilly's mom, who asked, why did my baby say dada before Mama? Seems unfair. You're in good company.
- [74:17]
B
Yeah. My daughter went through a huge only daddy phase. Really? Yeah. It drove me crazy. We had this picture book that was like, animal moms. And we would read through it. I'd read it to her, and she'd be like, those are all dads. Those are dad's moms. Like, she didn't want me to read it as though they were moms. I was like, come on. But, yeah, no, it's totally a thing. And I was just talking to a friend about this. Like, why is it that men are often harder on their boys? And I think there's this sense that, like, we have to toughen boys up for the hard world.
- [74:53]
A
Interesting. Yeah.
- [74:55]
B
Whereas men, I think, can be more fully affectionate and cuddly and nurturing with girls because it's like they can try out that more feminine side of their personality without constraint.
- [75:06]
A
Interesting.
- [75:07]
B
So I think it does kind of open up, like, a different way of relating that can be really healthy for men.
- [75:13]
A
Well, we had a lot of questions in that vein about toxic masculinity. Christina Weaver wanted to know, well, let's see Brighthawk, Carlos Barakel, Christina Weaver, Jason Lowenthal, Ashley Noel, Michael Crosa. Christina asked, are there concerns that the growing influence of the manosphere will contribute to a growing number of like abusive, neglectful, absentee or otherwise shitty dads? Is there, I know that things are getting better, but is there like a polarization to the opposite of like reclaiming masculinity kind of a thing?
- [75:50]
B
Yeah. So Christina, you will like my book. I have a whole chapter on masculinity which is kind of about this exact question of like what is going on with masculinity and fatherhood.
- [76:00]
A
Yeah.
- [76:01]
B
And I think it is this kind of tale of two cities where it's like the most educated, affluent dads are really more hands on as parents and are kind of like showing this different model of fatherhood that is more invested. But you also have this huge influence of the manosphere which is telling young men all cheating scenarios 100%.
- [76:23]
A
The blame is always on the female. Look after yourselves. That's you put some makeup on, do some burpees, you got fucking gut. Sort yourself out.
- [76:31]
B
Like, treat women like disposable sex objects and don't get trapped.
- [76:37]
A
Yeah.
- [76:37]
B
Because like women are just trying to use you for child support. So like these really hostile messages. And so I worry a, that there's kind of a class and education divide that is emerging that's also politically polarized. And it does, it seems somewhat antithetical to really good fatherhood. So it's just like we're kind of in these like diverging trend lines. Some dads are getting better at fatherhood, some men are totally disinvesting from fatherhood.
- [77:05]
A
Yeah.
- [77:06]
B
And we need to be really aware, I think, of the cultural narratives that we're propagating.
- [77:11]
A
Another aspect also to stress tolerance that previous generations may not have considered is neurodivergence and adhd, autism, even anxiety and depression, including reactions to world events, can impact how we process and respond to stimuli. And as we talked about in our three part ADHD episode, my husband, your pod mom, Jarrett Sleeper, wasn't diagnosed with adhd until his 30s. It was like five years or so after we met. And understanding his own brain has helped his life and relationships like in a way that's just night and day. So if you have a kiddo that's diagnosed with autism or adhd, guess what, parents, you're way more likely to have it as well. And I have a few dad friends who I can see in real time their own overstimulation. It's clear as Day to me, totally understandable. From kids literally banging on pots and pans to just not having any time or space to decompress. And without knowing your own brain and what coping strategies work, parenthood can be more overwhelming. Obviously your parents probably got a little something and yeah, they were probably never diagnosed. Never got to watch endless tiktoks explaining their brain. So try to keep their minds in mind. You know, I'm curious as someone who is not a parent, but I'm around people who are parents and this feels like a shitty question, but also it comes from a place of wanting to help. But like, if you see someone being like a shitty dad, yelling at their kids or being really short tempered with them and you can see how it's affecting a kid, is there anything that you can slightly nudge or a book? I mean, obviously your book. You know, anything that we can do as a community for dads to be like, hey, dude, you might be reenacting some generational trauma.
- [79:02]
B
It's a great question. Because it's so hard to intervene with other people's parenting.
- [79:06]
A
Yes.
- [79:07]
B
I think it's one of the hardest things you can do. Right. It feels so personal to people and people feel so vulnerable to being judged. But I mean, I think one of the best things you can do is just be like a positive support system for the kid.
- [79:19]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [79:20]
B
You know, find ways to spend time with the kid, be a good role model for the kid. Like give the kid an outlet. I think you can also just be like, hey, are you talking to someone? Like, you seem to be struggling with anger. You know, there are probably some gentle ways to give feedback that don't feel so hard to hear.
- [79:39]
A
Yeah. Being a good support for the kid too, I think is great advice. If you have one parent who maybe is a little bit harsher on you, does it help cancel it out to show that there's more support?
- [79:52]
B
Definitely, yeah. And I think it's generally good for kids to have caregivers with different styles and just to see like the variety and how humans relate to each other. Right. Like that's a learning experience for a kid. So if you're seeing a negative style, then maybe you can be a positive compensatory force.
- [80:11]
A
Yeah, yeah. What things do you wish dads knew, whether they're new dads or old dads?
- [80:18]
B
Yeah. I would say first you matter. You can make great contributions to a kid's life. Your involvement can take stress off your partner. It's. It's good for society. It's ultimately good for you too, for your aging, for your wellbeing, to be more socially connected. So, you know, prioritize fatherhood. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is just like, you are transforming too. You might think it's like, fully your partner's show, but your body is also in flux, and you can be mindful of how that's affecting your health and your well being.
- [80:53]
A
If fatherhood changed significantly, would that be better for all of society?
- [81:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think if dads show up more, engage more, participate more in parenting, we know that kids have better educational outcomes, they have better emotion regulation, they have better peer outcomes, they're less likely to be incarcerated. Right. So, like, dad's involvement seems to be this positive force across the board. And it's also helpful for moms to have someone who's able to provide support and scaffold their care.
- [81:31]
A
Right.
- [81:32]
B
So, yeah, like, one reason I wrote the book is because I think this is a public health priority.
- [81:38]
A
Yeah.
- [81:39]
B
That we want to empower dads to be involved and to own the parenting role.
- [81:47]
A
What about Father's Day gifts? What's a good one?
- [81:49]
B
There's a book I would recommend. It'll be on your shelves. We time the book release just. It comes out just a couple weeks before Father's Day for that very reason.
- [82:01]
A
Amazing.
- [82:02]
B
But I also think good Father's Day gifts are experiences too, like passes to a park or to the driving range or to a go kart track. Like things that dads can really enjoy doing with kids. I think most dads don't necessarily need another tie or another mug, but they might want an opportunity to do something fun with their kids or to read a book.
- [82:24]
A
That's great advice. I feel like passes to a garden that you can go to a lot. You know, things like that at a zoo or something like that. What is the hardest part about your job?
- [82:36]
B
Finding enough time to do it. Yeah, I love it. And I never have enough time to do all the stuff I want to do. I always have to drop a couple balls.
- [82:44]
A
Well, also, writing a book while you're running a lab.
- [82:49]
B
Yeah. What was I thinking? I don't know.
- [82:53]
A
The world is better for it, which is great.
- [82:56]
B
I hope so. I don't know if my students think
- [82:58]
A
that, but they now they have a reference tome forever, which is great. What about the work do you love so much?
- [83:07]
B
I love the feeling of discovering something new. And I have a professor in grad school who said this, like, she fell in love with research when she was like, you are creating new knowledge from scratch. Like, no one has ever known this thing. When you see that these variables interact together or that this finding has emerged, it's like you've pulled knowledge out of thin air. So I love that. I feel like that keeps you kind of hooked. And I also love working with smart people.
- [83:34]
A
Yeah.
- [83:34]
B
So my grad students honestly, like, do a lot of the work and the research and they are the ones, like, driving the plane of the lab a lot of the time. Like, I just kind of show up and tell them to keep going. But it's really fun to get to work with people who are going to be the future of the field.
- [83:53]
A
This has been a joy. Thank you so much. Your book is so good.
- [83:57]
B
Thank you. This was such a blast. I'm so glad we made it happen.
- [84:00]
A
I know, neighbor.
- [84:01]
B
Yeah. See you on the stream. I know. I'll see you.
- [84:06]
A
So ask smart people sometimes not smart questions because experts are literally around every corner in my neighborhood. That's very true. And thank you again so much to Dr. Darby Saxby for her long awaited Ologies interview and for the work she's doing to make the world better. Dad by dad and again this week or any week. Go get her book dad the New Science of Fatherhood and how it Shapes Men's lives. You can get it at your local bookstore. You can get it at bookshop.org, amazon ebook, wherever you get books, we've linked those in the show notes for you, including her substack, which is natal brain, as well as all of her social handles. We are at Ologies on Instagram and Blue Sky. My name is A.L.I.E. ward with just one L and you can find merch@ologiesmerch.com we have smologies episodes for the young ones or anyone who wants shorter versions of the show. Just look up S M O L O G I E s Smologies. Wherever you get podcasts, you can sign up for Our Patreon@patreon.com Ologies Mike Campbell's daughter Erin Talbert admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group Avileen Malik makes our professional transcripts. Finding the time each week is scheduling producer Noelle Dilworth. The one we trust to catch us midair is managing director Susan Hale and the duo, raising each episode into an edited one are J. Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn made the music, maybe while making us pancakes. And special love to anyone who did have a shitty dad. Thank you for letting me, this Internet creature, step into a Virtual role. You're beautiful. You're sweet. You deserve love. You can do it, whatever. It is also a lot of appreciation to listener Zach Bogart, who, for funsies, made a website that is cataloged every oh, hey. Greeting I've done from every episode and made a site that just pops them up at random. And it's oh, heyitsthe site, and we'll link it in the show notes. Zach Bogart, thank you so much for that. I've forgotten almost all of them that I've ever done, but if you stick around to the end of the episode, you know, I burden you with a secret. And this week, the secret is that Jarrett Sleeper also is helping edit this one because Jake is out tonight, and.
- [86:13]
B
And
- [86:16]
A
he was editing it, and he was like, do you know what a succubus is? And I was like, it's something like in your sleep that steals your soul or your light. And he's like, well, it's kind of like a horny demon that does that, like a horny lady demon. And I was like, oh, well, I didn't know that part. But then we debated back and forth if we tried to cut that part out or we were. But I just decided I was going to acknowledge it here again, please nobody email me. But also, I kind of stand by it because language is elastic and folklore stretches and constricts to fit our needs. And also, like, a baby is living up your vagina. So that's not sexual, but it is invasive. So. But succubus, I know it sounds like sucking the life, so that was just my mistake. Also, I love when you're chewing gum that's gotten, like, too hard to chew, and then you take a sip of something warm like a tea, and you go, ba doing, my gum's back. It's chewy for a couple seconds. I think that's nice. Also, dads, you're doing great, okay? If you're listening to this and you're a dad or you're gonna be a dad, you're doing great. Just the fact that you're here is great. Most dads are awesome. We just hear about the bad ones. It's like when people are like, I've never seen a good hair transplant. And it's like, exactly. Because you're only seeing the bad ones. That's what people are talking about. People who are leaving one stars on Yelp, they're gonna be the most vocal, probably for the most part. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I'm just saying, you're doing great. I don't know how you do it. Parents. I don't know how you do it. Mom, you're a real one. Thanks for raising me, dad. Out there. Thanks also.
- [88:09]
B
All right.
- [88:09]
A
Bye. Bye. Pachydermatology, Homeology. Cryptozoology, Litology, Nanotechnology, Meteorology. Coal factology, Nephology, Serology, Selenology.
- [88:31]
B
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A
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B
At angie. Combination.