Sciuridology (SQUIRRELS) Encore with Karen Munroe

Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward: Sciuridology (SQUIRRELS) Encore with Dr. Karen Munroe

Date: July 30, 2026
Host: Alie Ward
Guest: Dr. Karen Munroe, Professor of Biology, Baldwin Wallace University

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Episode Overview

This encore episode delves into the wild world of squirrels with mammalogist and scoridiologist Dr. Karen Munroe. Fusing decades of field and lab research, Dr. Munroe brings stories and science, covering squirrel ecology, evolution, anatomy, drama, sex lives, and conservation. Alie and Dr. Munroe explore why squirrels have captured human affection, how they're ecological powerhouses, what makes them evolutionary generalists, and why many species are secretly at risk. Full of humor, memorable anecdotes, and audience participation, the episode is a deep dive into one of nature’s most charismatic rodents.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to Dr. Karen Munroe and Sciuridology

• Dr. Munroe’s background: Undergraduate in molecular biology, master's in ecology & evolution, PhD in wildlife conservation management. Lifelong squirrel researcher since age 17. [04:35–11:42]
• Definition of “Squiridologist”: A fun title suggested by Alie for experts in squirrels. Dr. Munroe traditionally goes by "mammalogist." [05:19–05:45]

Squirrel Tails: Function & Evolution

• Why the tail?
  • Shade and thermoregulation: “It's all kinds of thermoregulation...you know, think of it as an umbrella if it's misting, raining...Or you know when they splat...they’re trying to give off heat, pick up heat.” – Dr. Munroe [06:20]
  • Balance: Used as a rudder, especially when falling or jumping. [07:01–07:49]

Path to Squirrel Science

• Origin Story: Fluke and fortune led Dr. Munroe from aspiring pediatrician to squirrel scientist. Collecting and feeding acorns as an undergrad was a pivotal turning point. [08:17–11:42]
• Accessibility: Squirrels are “right there,” making them easy and rewarding to study, especially for undergrads and public engagement. [12:22–13:08]

Squirrel Ubiquity and Adaptation

• Where they live: Everywhere except Antarctica and (natively) Australia. Squirrels’ adaptability to nearly all biomes is due to both generalist (gray squirrels) and specialist (ground squirrels) strategies. [13:54–14:33]
• What makes them successful? Charisma (cute faces, hands, bushy tails), scatter hoarding, generalist diets, and adaptive behaviors. [14:33–16:31]

Squirrels' Role as Planetary Gardeners

• Acorn dynamics:
  • Squirrels forget some of their caches, aiding in tree dispersal and carbon capture.
  • Squirrels’ partial consumption boosts germination, especially for acorns. “If [an] acorn is handled by a squirrel, even if it is half eaten by the squirrel, it will germinate better...” – Dr. Munroe [16:46]
• Evolutionary dance: The “bite-the-best-bit” habit ties into the acorn’s own defenses (tannins). [16:41–18:43]

Squirrel Behavioral Ecology: Year in the Life

• Seasonality:
  • Activity peaks in midday winters; reproduction tied to spring, but climate change is shifting breeding earlier (even December). [23:33–24:49]
  • Communal nesting (matrilineal, also bachelor groups). Drays (squirrel nests) are leafy domes distinct from bird nests. [25:22–27:27]
  • Move between nests to mitigate mites/fleas. [27:56–28:20]

Squirrels and Humans

• Attracting and cohabiting:
  • Squirrel nest boxes can help, but preferences vary by species: fox squirrels prefer open areas; gray squirrels like overlapping trees; ground squirrels nest in the ground. [28:47–29:56]
• Conflict with birders:
  • Squirrels as “pests” is mostly a U.S. mindset; globally, 80% of squirrel species are threatened or endangered, often due to habitat loss. [30:24–32:08]

What IS a Squirrel? Taxonomy & Types

• Diversity: ~289 species, including cousins chipmunks, marmots, and groundhogs. [32:46–33:17]
• Differences: Tree vs. ground vs. flying squirrels, plus anatomical and behavioral distinctions. [33:17–33:51]
• Lifespan: Up to 10 years in wild, 20 in captivity. [33:51]

Technology in Squirrel Research

• New tools: Fiber optic cameras enable research in burrows once invisible to scientists; copulatory plugs found, but actual mating rarely seen due to underground preferences. [34:44–36:43]

Squirrel Sex Lives: Drama & Copulatory Plugs

• Mating behavior:
  • Females in estrus for only about 8 hours; may mate with up to 24 males! Litter sizes vary (up to 13, but 2–4 is common). [38:34–39:49]
  • Copulatory plugs: Male inserts plug to prevent future copulation; females usually remove or even eat them. “Yeet it or eat it, babies. He’s not the boss of you.” – Alie [38:17]
  • Litters can have multiple fathers. [38:34]

Disease, Risks, and Myths

• Rabies: No documented cases in squirrels or rodents.
  • “There's never been a case of a rodent carrying rabies.” – Dr. Munroe [54:20]
• Bubonic plague: Possible with fleas, but rare. [54:47–55:04]
• Rodenticides: Major threats, especially for generalist species in agriculture. [41:29–41:41]

Predator-Prey Drama: Squirrels and Snakes

• Squirrels warn each other by vocalizing and tail-thumping for ground predators.
• Ultraviolet signaling: Squirrels heat up their tails to warn pit vipers, which have heat-sensitive pits, but don’t do so for non-pit vipers. [47:14–48:30]
  • “The squirrel’s tail lights up like a lightsaber in the rattlesnake’s face. Only when it’s a rattlesnake.” – Kelly Ripa [47:13]

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Notable Listener Q&As

Why Black (Melanistic) Squirrels?

• Black morph is a single dominant gene; first introduced to D.C. from Canada by a zoo superintendent in 1900s. [65:13–66:41]
• Potential thermoregulatory advantage in cold. [67:20]
• No evidence they’re meaner or larger than other gray squirrels. [68:40–68:51]

Flying Squirrels and Bioluminescence

• Do they actually fly? No, they glide.
• Do they fluoresce? Yes, flying squirrels fluoresce bright pink under UV/black light—reason unknown; possibly predator avoidance. [71:29–72:59]

Squirrel Memory & Cache Recovery

• How do they remember their caches?
  • Hippocampus literally grows larger in autumn for food caching. [82:08]
• How accurate is memory? Varies by species; can recover 25–95% of food, but may also pilfer from others. [18:27–19:21]

College Squirrels

• Larger and bolder thanks to human food and frequent human presence. Dr. Munroe notes her campus squirrels are 20% larger than wild ones. [77:23]

Squirrel Obstacles, Ninja Courses, & Cleverness

• Dr. Munroe loves Mark Rober’s viral squirrel obstacle course videos for showcasing how smart and agile they are. [84:10–85:01]
• Squirrels solve spatial puzzles and adapt quickly to complex food challenges.

Squirrel and Bird Feeder Battles

• Why do they eat bird seed? Is it bad? No, it’s not harmful; they just love it. Best way to deter: use hot pepper bird seed—birds don’t care, mammals hate it. [85:40–86:16]

Garden Pest?

• How to prevent squirrels from eating all the tomatoes? Short answer: It's nearly impossible. Nets sometimes work, but they’re smart and persistent. “World domination. For sure.” – Dr. Munroe [86:59–87:02]
• Squirrels take a single bite out of many fruits due to evolutionary foraging strategies: the tastiest bits, then move on. [87:50–88:22]

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Squirrel Conservation: Threats & Successes

• Shocking fact: 80% of squirrel species are threatened or endangered primarily due to habitat loss. [30:24–32:08]
• Case study: Mount Graham red squirrel—most endangered mammal in North America, residing on a single mountaintop and facing threats from logging, fires, development, introduced species, and climate change. [56:10–57:52]
• Conservation efforts sometimes tied to hunting; hunting permits fund wildlife management. [95:40–96:17]

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Hilarious & Memorable Moments

• Squirrel copulatory plugs: “Yeet it or eat it, babies.” – Alie [38:17]
• On “rat kings” (squirrel tails glued together by sap): “Please call a wildlife rehabber. And unless you see it in real life, don’t look it up. Don’t look it up. Don’t look it up.” – Host [41:06]
• Alie’s personal squirrel encounter: Recording and playing back an alarm call to Dr. Munroe, only to learn she was being cussed out by a new squirrel mom. [42:01–43:32]
• Squirrel-released beer crisis: Squirrel found drunk after breaking into a railway club, confirming that animals party too. [79:01]
• Do squirrels invent maple syrup? Red squirrels tap and return to maple trees to eat concentrated sap, possibly inspiring indigenous people. [80:26–80:41]
• Squirrel mind control TikTok: No evidence, but maybe mimics the motion of feeding. [92:45–93:33]
• Mythbusting squirrel castration: Red squirrels do NOT chew off gray squirrels’ testicles; male squirrel “balls” just move inside the body when not in breeding season. [91:23–92:08]
• Maximum respect: “My favorite thing is when you grab [a chipmunk], the first thing they do is regurgitate all of that that’s in their mouth—just falls out.” – Dr. Munroe [79:43]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:35 — Introduction to Dr. Karen Munroe
• 06:20 — Squirrel tails: Uses and functions
• 13:54 — Global distribution of squirrels
• 16:46 — Squirrel-plant symbiosis: Acorn germination
• 23:33 — A year in the life of a (gray) squirrel
• 30:24 — Squirrel pest status vs. global conservation crisis
• 34:44 — Technology in squirrel research
• 38:34 — Squirrel sex lives; super short but intense mating windows
• 47:14 — Squirrel vs. rattlesnake arms race (tail heating and signaling)
• 65:13 — Black (melanistic) squirrels in the U.S. and Canada
• 71:29 — Flying squirrels that fluoresce
• 85:40 — Bird seed: how to protect it from squirrels

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Notable Quotes

• On squirrel appeal: “They’re just so charismatic… right size and shape, and they’re just charismatic.” – Dr. Munroe [14:48]
• Plant-animal coevolution: “We really do have squirrels to thank for most of our trees and mature hardwood forests.” – Dr. Munroe [22:50]
• World’s endangered squirrels: “80% of the world’s squirrel populations are threatened or endangered.” – Dr. Munroe [30:24]
• On their sex lives: “Female gray squirrels will mate multiply. They're only in estrus for eight hours… up to 24 males.” – Dr. Munroe [39:25]
• Common misconception: “There’s never been a case of a rodent carrying rabies.” – Dr. Munroe [54:20]
• On squirrel control: “World domination. For sure.” – Dr. Munroe [86:59]
• Personal favorite squirrel: “If you’re gonna press me, I will typically tell you it’s the two Japanese squirrels… pygmy dwarf squirrel… and Musasabe, an 8 pound flying squirrel.” – Dr. Munroe [74:32]
• On the best and worst parts of the job: “You could think about charismatic megafauna and how cool it would be to work on mountain lions… And then it was like, no, I could have this charismatic minor fauna.” – Dr. Munroe [100:07]

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Listener Questions: Quick Answers

• Black squirrels: One gene makes them black; many introduced via human intervention; not meaner or bigger. [65:13–68:51]
• Fluorescent flying squirrels: Yes, discovered recently. Purpose still unknown. [71:29–73:00]
• Do squirrels recognize humans? Probably not individuals, but definitely behaviors (especially food-offering). [83:39–83:47]
• Can you outsmart a squirrel? Rarely. They are experts at overcoming bird and garden defenses. [86:39–88:22]
• Do red squirrels castrate gray squirrels? No. [91:23]
• Can squirrels find their way home after relocation? Yes, up to 5 (sometimes 10) miles. [97:07–97:43]
• Squirrel memory for caches: Hippocampus enlarges in the fall to help. [82:08]
• Squirrel obstacle courses: Dr. Munroe approves! [84:10]
• Squirrel poop: Like tic-tacs or jellybeans, often outside the nest. [99:39–99:59]
• Hot pepper birdseed: Best humane way to keep squirrels from raiding feeders. [85:40–86:16]

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Conservation & Organizations Mentioned

• Letters to a Pre-Scientist: Matching students with STEM professionals (prescientist.org).
• Squirrel Mapper: Community mapping of squirrel populations (squirrelmapper.org).

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Closing Sentiments

Dr. Munroe and Alie celebrate the humble squirrel as a window into science, conservation, adaptation, and human-animal interaction. The episode encourages listeners to see squirrels—and all wildlife—as intricate, valuable parts of our shared ecosystem, well worth our study and protection.

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For more details and references, check the Ologies show notes and connect with Dr. Karen Munroe online (@squirreldoc). Say hi to your local squirrels, and never take their acrobatics or intelligence for granted!

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(All timestamps in MM:SS format refer to approximate position in the episode excluding advertisements and promos.)

Transcript

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[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Oh, hello.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Up top. This is me from the Future 2026 and the three part Menopause episodes laid me out a little. So here's an encore of one of my favorites. I can't believe we've never re aired it because it's so good. We have also added some new information that might haunt you in a good way forever. It's so good. Also, stick around until the end for an update to my original secret. Also haunting. To me at least. Okay. Oh, hey, it's your neighbor with the smelly trash cans. What's in there? Alie Ward, I am going to make this intro as short as possible because I have squirrels in my pants. I want to start this. First things first, I wanted to interview this person. For years, somehow my emails never got returned, my dreams never materialized. And then one day I realized she followed me on social media. Hot Dang. I dmed her with so many exclamation points it was embarrassing. And from the first second of this interview I'm losing my shit. And I think you will too. So she got her undergrad in cellular molecular biology at Arizona State University, she had a Master's in Ecology and Evolutionary biology at Purdue and Then got a PhD in Wildlife Ecology and Conservation back at the University of Arizona. We're going to talk about it. She's now a professor of Biology at Baldwin Wallace University in Ohio where she has done many things, one of them co creating a full length dance work called Liars in Fur Coats about the social and mating habits of squirrels. She studied fox squirrels, gray squirrels, ground squirrels and more for decades and her hand on social media reflect this commitment. Squirrel Doc it's linked in the show notes. Also linked patreon.com ologies for a buck or more a month, you can submit questions ahead of time and I might say your name with my face. Ologies Merch is also linked in the show notes and thanks to everyone who leaves reviews and subscribes. I read all of them and 2026 me here. That is still very true. And to prove it, here's a freshie from E. Tut Hans who wrote oh hey, it's the woman who just found your podcast and made it her whole personality. Each episode leaves me entertained, interested, inspired and in awe. Etodhans says that they're a self described perfectionist and my advice is perfectionism is a lie and a dream killer, so don't fall for it. Okay squirrels, so let's get into it. So scurry ideology. It's hard to say, but it's a real word people, and it comes from the Greek for shade tail. And we're going to talk about who's who in the family of Scoridii. We'll also chat about the best part of the acorns, how many trees squirrels plant, why they're so good at bird feeders, do they glow in the dark, what their chirps and barks mean, flying squirrels, ground squirrels, litter sizes, cozy nests. If squirrels love you back, they're absolutely glorious and terrible sex lives, hoarding, hiding, gliding, conservation statuses that might shock you, and why you should never, never put a squirrel in your pocket before you board an airplane. And so much more with mammalogist, biologist and Most importantly, scoridiologist Dr. Karen Monro.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

My name is Karen Monroe and I use she her pronouns.

[Alie Ward]

My God, it's you. It's really you.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's really Me, I promise, it's me.

[Alie Ward]

Literally so many people in my life know today is a really exciting one for me.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

No chill. Zero chill whatsoever. And that is the correct way to be when talking to Dr. Karen Monroe.

[Alie Ward]

By the way, do you know that? Scuriology. Do you know that? Have you ever heard the term?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No, I've always referred to myself as a mammalogist.

[Alie Ward]

You're very good at squirrels though.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes.

[Alie Ward]

And I just want you to know that out there in just the miasma of life and words. A scoridiologist is a term for someone who is very good at squirrels.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I know this term. I believe you. I was gonna say I've studied squirrels for a very long time. Longer than I've been married. I mean, since I was my freshman year in college. So Since I was 17 I've studied squirrels. But I still to this day have active squirrel research because people are just fascinated by it.

[Alie Ward]

We love squirrels, but we're scared of most other rodents.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right? Why is that? It's the fluffy tail, isn't it?

[Alie Ward]

It's gotta be. I mean, that's where they get their name from even, right? I read that it's right.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Shadetail.

[Alie Ward]

Shadetail. Wait a second, wait a second. Their tail is for shade?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Partially.

[Alie Ward]

Sure.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's all kinds of thermoregulation. So you know, think of it as an umbrella if it's just kind of misting, raining, but yeah, cover yourself in sun. Or you know when they splat. Right. So like when they lay flat, they're trying to thermoregulate, you know, it's a way for them to give off heat, pick up heat.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

However you'd like more on body heat in a bit. But we have a whole ding dang episode on thermophysiology and body temperature regulation as well as a kid friendly smallogies episode On it with Dr. Shane Campbell Staten. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Alie Ward]

I gotta admit. I've wanted to talk about squirrels for a long time, but I don't think I've ever thought about the function of a squirrel tail. And of course they have a function. They wouldn't have evolved to have it otherwise.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right. And then like when you watch them jump and fall and stuff like that, they also use it to totally right themselves so that they land, you know, on all fours.

[Alie Ward]

That makes so much sense. Is it kind of like when you see a tightrope walker that has one of those really big poles?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yeah, absolutely. They kind of like. Well, I don't know about Polk, but yeah, like at The Yankees game last night, probably 10 people sent me this clip. There was a squirrel in the outfield and the fans were, you know, shocked by it as it's like running across and then it falls and it falls 8ft onto the ground. Now he's become a flying squirrel.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Oh, this is not good.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

He sticks to landing much better than we would, I'll tell you that. Like, it's nothing off to the race and you just watch it and it kind of goes side to side to side and like you can watch the tail kind of work as a rudder and then it lands just fine and runs away.

[Alie Ward]

Is there any part of that that also is just like a parachute to slow it down?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I don't know about a parachute. I mean, I think more like flying squirrels, right? Like the gliding with that membrane really kind of is better to catch some air. But gray squirrels, which this was just a gray squirrel, they kind of use it more kind of as a rudder side to side.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Oh, boy, howdy. We will address different kinds of squirrels. Gray fox, giant dwarf, flying marvel. But first, let's talk about the specimen.

[Alie Ward]

Karen Monroe, I gotta ask, how did you get. So I'm gonna say lucky that somehow Life just shot Dr. Karen Monroe down a path from the age of 17 where she gets to study the most beloved woodland creature.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

There is the perfect confluence of luck and mistakes, I guess. So when I was in high school, right, My high school guidance counselor was like, oh, you know, you like biology, you should become a vet or a doctor, right? That was pretty much the two career paths. And there was no way I could ever tell somebody they had to put their pet down. That was not even an option for me. So I was like, well, I'll be a doctor. I like people and I really like kids. And so I was like, oh, I'll be a pediatrician. And. And my undergraduate advisor, one of the smartest things he did was he made me go shadow a pediatrician for a week. And I learned two very important things during that week long shadowing experience. Let's hear it. One, sick kids are no fun.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, no.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Two, parents of sick kids are even less fun. But he at that point had already enveloped me into his lab. And so I was working for him mainly as an undergraduate hourly job. Collecting acorns and feeding acorns to squirrels is part of his lab component. And I tell my students all the time. After I figured out I did not want to be a pediatrician, I tried to find an area of medicine that I liked and I really didn't And I tried to find somewhere else for me to go, like, what is it that I really was interested in and what did I like? And I ended up thinking, well, I was at this small liberal arts college and that if I transferred someplace bigger, because I was from a small town, if I went to someplace bigger, I would have more opportunities and I could figure it out. And so I transferred from Wilkes University, which is at that time, I think, 1300 students to Arizona State University. Oh, so across country, 1300 students to 40,000 students.

[Alie Ward]

Climate differences even.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yeah, climate, cultural, everything and anything you could possibly imagine. What I really figured out at Arizona was that there were even less opportunities as a lonely undergraduate to get involved in research and really kind of figure out what it is I want to do.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So Karen was majoring in cellular and molecular biology, but couldn't seem to get lab experience in Arizona. So hungry for research, she would spend summers and spring breaks not getting crunk on four locos in Miami beach, but heading back to her small town to work on squirrels.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

And so I kind of did a huge 180. So my undergrad degree is in cellular molecular biology. And I went to Purdue and eventually ended up leaving there with my master's in ecology and evolutionary biology. But it meant I had to take all of those classes. Ecology, evolution, animal behavior, advanced mammalogy. All those kinds of things I took as a graduate student. And that's when I kind of really started putting things together that, like, oh, all this cell and molecular genetic stuff that I really liked in college, I could actually apply that to the squirrels and the systems that I do so very well from working in the lab. So that's kind of where my PhD ends up. My PhD is actually in wildlife conservation management. And it really is the confluence of those two things. It's applying all the genetic stuff to an animal of conservation concern was my original thought, but in that way to a group of animals that have a great conservation concern.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Are squirrels in trouble? It seems like they're everywhere. Maybe one tried to even steal your croissant yester they seem like they're doing fine to some of us. But we will get into how different species are doing later in the episode. But yes, her interests and experience all converged to make her a truly lauded security.

[Alie Ward]

It sounds like one was the peanut butter and the other was the bread. And you're like, oh, I guess I can make a sandwich.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You've got my chocolate, my peanut butter.

[Alie Ward]

So when it comes to your work, was there anything about the fieldwork that you were drawn to or was it more systemic that you liked?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No, it was much more systemic. I mean, I really enjoyed the fact that I could walk. And I do this now, right? I walk outside and my study organism is right there. It's not like I need, you know, to get on a plane and fly 3,000 miles with all this equipment and things like that. It's right there, which means it's accessible and I can talk about it to the public and I can talk about it to my students. And so I really enjoy that fact. At the same point, I've also worked places where I've had to drive six hours to the top of a mountain to work with the species. And so there are those distant and far away species as well. But I really like the fact that especially as an undergraduate, you know, I would get on my bike and bike across campus and start trapping squirrels and making observations and things like that. It just was so accessible, I think is probably the reason I really got hooked and involved.

[Alie Ward]

I gotta say, anyone who's listening to this who's like, working on permafrost stuff is probably like, fewer frequent flyer miles, but still the availability of squirrels. That's why we love them.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It is. And everybody knows them and everybody loves them. And everybody, everybody, everybody has a squirrel story.

[Alie Ward]

Yes.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You know, I go to dinners that have, you know, corporate people and business people and whatnot. They're like, oh, as scientists, we're not gonna be able to talk to you. And I'm like, I bet you you are. I bet you. I bet you you will. By the end of the night, you and I are gonna be friends and we will have shared stories.

[Alie Ward]

Surely they're attention gathering. No matter. But where do squirrels live? Speaking of tundra and permafrost, what continents, or rather, I guess, where don't squirrels live?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I think Antarctica is the only place squirrels do not live.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Wow.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You know, from the Arctic Circle down into the tropics and you know, from east to west across the way.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So if you are on a continent, squirrels are native to it. Except Australia, where American gray squirrels were introduced to Melbourne in the late 1800s. And then a few days later, a scurry of northern palm squirrels busted out of the zoo in Perth. And honestly, it's all over the place how many there still are out there. Oh, and squirrels are also not native to Antarctica, in case you're listening there. And I am impressed that you are and that you have WI Fi and I hope that you didn't bring a squirrel there.

[Alie Ward]

And since you have such a systemic Mind about that. What are squirrels doing, right, to not only capture our hearts, but also to be so omnipresent and to be able to live in all these different biomes. They figured it out kind of right?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, they're just so charismatic, right? Like, they have the little pointy noses and the face and the, you know, the hands, and so you can sit there and watch them rotate the acorn in their hand and get it just right so they can take the perfect bite. They're not intimidating, right? Even when they make noises and things like that. I've had people like, oh, the squirrel's just saying hello as they're like, chirp, chirp, chirp, and like flapping their tail at them. And I'm like, no, they're saying that you're a predator, and they're trying to make sure everybody else knows that you're a predator and, and to get away. But I think that they're just kind of the right size and shape and they're just charismatic.

[Alie Ward]

From an evolutionary standpoint, what do you think has helped them survive on prairies and mountains and in the cold and in jungles?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You know, I want to say that they're such generalists, kind of across the board that they're willing to eat just about anything. But that is not always true because there are definitely cases where they really do specifically eat, you know, a very small number of plants, things like that. I think of, like ground squirrels really specialize in a plant type and their whole physiology and when they come out of hibernation or torpor really is tied to that specific plant type and precipitation and things like that. But then I think of like the classic gray squirrel. And man, they will eat anything from plants to animals, eggs, insects, truffles. Human food is kind of the last resort. That's not generally what they're after, but their diet is so general and they have the ability just to. They're scatter hoarders. So they put a little bit of food here, there, there and there. They like to take things like mushrooms and fungi and up into the trees and they will dry it and then put it in their dry nests with them for the winter.

[Alie Ward]

No, wait. They have better meal planning than I do.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right?

[Alie Ward]

That's hurts so bad, and I'm really impressed. I can't.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, I've seen. I have a, you know, squirrel. My neighborhood has taken, you know, a chunk of a Halloween pumpkin and put it up in the tree to dry and I'm sure stored it away for winter.

[Alie Ward]

How many of Our trees are because of forgetful squirrels, almost all of them.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I know from my undergraduate research that if a acorn is handled by a squirrel, even if it is half eaten by the squirrel, it will germinate better than an acorn that has not been touched at all by a squirrel.

[Alie Ward]

So we owe so much carbon capture to squirrels.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, they really are like the gardener of the planet.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Half eaten, really.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Just saunter over to the 1993 paper, Tannins and partial consumption of acorns, Implications for Dispersal of Oaks by Seed predators, and you can get a little fact snack like germination experiments revealed equal or greater germination frequencies for partially consumed acorns than for the intact acorns. And they say, we suggest that the higher tannin levels may render the apical portion less palatable and thereby increase the probability of embryo survival after attack by seed consumer, which would be the squirrel. I guess more delicious fat is at the top of the acorn. And remember this for later, because something's going to blow your mind related to this. Also, for anyone who has ever, I don't know, found a handful of loose Reese's Pieces in a blazer pocket that I rarely wear, you should know that the tastier the acorn is, the more likely the squirrel says to itself, none of those other jabroni squirrels, squirrels are going to eat this good one. So they bury them farther away where they might not find them, which gives the acorn distance from the parent tree, which it needs to not get choked out by its siblings. All of this drama under our noses, under our trees. Also, yes, I did eat the rhesus that I found in my pocket. And no, I don't know how long they had been in there.

[Alie Ward]

How many acorns, arboreal squirrels stashing away. I read something that they really only remember, like 10% of them, or they don't even remember. They just look around to be like, where might there be acorns? And it might have been someone else's acorns, but they're like, yep, they're acorns.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Exactly. As part of an undergrad project, we tagged thousands of acorns and put them out in the forest. Little Brad nails and then walked for hours with a metal detector trying to recover acorns to see how far squirrels were actually dispersing them. And it's quite a distance. And they, they are so smart. They know acorns that are infested with weevils or other insects that are not going to make it through the winter. And they will either eat them immediately or excise the insect and then bury it. They will flip the acorn over. They will use their front incisors to scrape out the cotyledon and then stash it so that it won't germinate and it'll be there longer.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So, yes, squirrels do not have a 100% recovery rate with their food, all right? And they don't pretend to. It can range from 25 to 95% recovery rate, depending on the species and area and food. But a ton of research has shown that squirrels have excellent spatial memory, and they know to head back to their cache. But if they smell a neighbor's food buried on the way, they might eat that, too. Also, According to the 1986 paper Gray Squirrel Food Preferences, the effects of tannin and Fat Concentration. Squirrels know which acorn species are more perishable, and they may bury like red oak nuts because they'll last longer and germinate in the spring. But they might eat white acorns because they germinate earlier in autumn, although years later, scientists at Berkeley were like, not so fast. It might just be that some acorns are just bigger, and it's like taking a few bites of a huge calzone in October and then just digging a hole in the backyard and tossing it in there to snack on during the Super Bowl. Also, scrape out the what? The coty who? Okay, so cotyledon. It sounds like a very expensive shade of paint. Everyone would be telling you to paint your kitchen, but it's actually an embryonic leaf or a pair of them, and they're in seeds and in acorns, for example, it stores a lot of energy. And while the squirrels usually only bury about an inch deep in the soil, their whole food festival area can be up to seven acres wide. They're hard workers and also liars. So a 2008 study titled Cache Protection Strategies of Scatter Hoarding Rodent Do Tree Squirrels Engage in Behavioral Deception? It showed that in about 13% of caching events on a specific college campus, squirrels dug a hole, pretended to drop their acorn into it, but kept the acorn in their mouths and ran away. And this may have been the result of just a lot of squirrels being around, and they didn't want anyone to see where they were stash in their booty. And I didn't even think to ask this, but in the paper, the researchers mentioned that they could tell which squirrel was which by noting distinctive markings. Or, according to the study quote, others were uniquely marked with small spots of various Brands of men's hair dye applied with a plastic dropper from a short distance without restraining the animals. So squirrel researchers, they're just out there, they're offering snacks, makeovers. And then in another study published in 2017 out of UC Berkeley, titled Caching for where and what Evidence for a mnemonic strategy in a scatter hoarder, that one found that fox squirrels buried their food in different areas depending on what the food was. So if they got a mixed batch of almonds and hazelnuts and pecans and walnuts, they spatially chunked their caches by nut species, but only when caching food that was taken from one single location. And I'm reading this paper and I'm like, one of the authors is none other than Dr. Michael Delgado, who was the expert in our legendary felineology episode, which I will link in the show notes. But the point is these fuzzy little babies, they're organizing their dirt pantries. And again, unlike me, they have apparently something akin to self control.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You know, they only eat an acorn based on how much other food is available because the plant's smart and puts tannins into the acorn. And as it gets closer to the cotyledon, it puts more tannins so it tastes more bitter, if that's possible. If you've ever eaten an acorn, it is incredibly bitter, but the concentration of tannins increases as you get towards cotyledon. So they will just eat the top half of the acorn and drop it. And so it is nice, that kind of back and forth evolutionary adaptation between oaks and squirrels, but they do that for lots of seeds and things like that. So we really do have squirrels to thank for most of our trees and mature hardwood forests.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

For more on eating acorns as humans, you can listen to the indigenous colonology episode, which I will link in the show notes is a great one.

[Alie Ward]

I'm so curious what a squirrel's yearly planner looks like. When are they sleeping? When are they up? When are they getting it on? What's their year look like at a glance?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So if I kind of take a traditional gray squirrel, North American squirrel. So in the wintertime, they're mainly active in the middle of the day, and that's when they're relying on most of their stored foods and things like that. Typically, once, you know, you start to get warmed up, I will say February. Although with climate change, this is getting earlier and earlier. And I've actually seen squirrels mate as early as December once kind of buds on trees start happening and Things like that. You'll get the first round of reproduction and squirrels will eat the inner camium off of tree branches and limbs as well as other insects, forbs, grasses, things like that.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Inner cambium, side note, is part of a tree. It's specifically the sugary, really nutrient heavy layer of new growth. It's just below the bark. And we talk all about it in the dendrology two parter with Casey J. Clapp. But yes, some squirrels, thanks in part to climate change, are having steamy, romantic Hallmark holidays and canoodling in December. But usually they hold off until around Valentine's Day when spring is springing. The days grow longer and the world grows ever hornier.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Once young are out, usually it's springtime and food's abundant and available. And if squirrels are in good enough body condition, they can reproduce again. So in a few weeks later, they'll kind of go through that whole process again. Most squirrels will not reproduce until they're about a year old. And so we can kind of classify typically sub adults are juveniles, less than six months, and then sub adults and then once they mate, we usually refer to them as adults. So they don't ever really. Most squirrels are not true hibernators. They'll go into torpor for a day or two when it's really cold. We know that they like to nest, share a lot.

[Alie Ward]

Really. I love that. I love a co op.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So if it's really cold out, why not get up with a bunch of your friends and all cozy and together and you know, save some body heat.

[Alie Ward]

It's like Hygge, it's like that Scandinavian concept of just like, just snuggle down.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

And we know that different species, they do it slightly differently. So in gray squirrels they tend to be matrilineal and so females that tend to have some kind of relatedness will tend to nest together. And there can be like little bachelor groups as well, kind of help save some of that body heat and whatnot. And they'll move from nest to nest from night to night. It's not like one nest, one squirrel. So they are kind of communal. They'll move from group to group.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So no, squirrels aren't setting up ring cameras and calling the cops if someone naps on their couch. And if you need a visual, their drays are like twigs on the outside for structure and then they're stuffed with a leafy lining for insulation. And then there's like a little inner mattress of moss and fur. So when you see a clot of leaves in a Denuded tree in winter. Just think there might be a snoozing squirrel burping up your bagel in there. Just heaven.

[Alie Ward]

Well, okay, here's the thing. I try to think about, like, a squirrel home, and I always think about, like, a hollow and a log or something.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Oh, sure.

[Alie Ward]

But I. I live in California, where we don't have the same sort of like bare winter branches that the east coast does. We have a lot of palm trees, we got oaks. But I thought when I saw clots of nests in bare winter trees, I thought those were big bird nests. And someone told me, no, those are squirrel nests. Yeah. How do they make a nest in the top of a tree on skinny branches out of leaves?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, you just kind of wove it in together and they're. You can usually tell it's a squirrel nest and a bird nest from the doming on the top. Okay, so, like, when you look at bird nests, most of them are kind of flat and then, you know, curved on the bottom. But drays have a shelter top. So they are kind of curved on the top, especially when they're being used a lot. As they become less used, they will sink down a little bit. But, yeah, those big, clumpy, leafy pieces are squirrel drays.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So a nest is shaped like a bowl and for birds, and a dray for squirrels is more like a bubble or a dome. And no, you didn't ask, but the study of nests is called knitology. And not two hours from me is the world's best museum of nests. It's called the Western foundation of Vertebrate Zoology. It's in Camarillo, and it's home to more than 18,000 nest specimens. Oh, I want to go there so bad. But back to tree holes.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

And they absolutely will use cavities, too, in trees. So, like, a cavity is definitely prime location in real estate, particularly if you're going to raise young. Right. So, like, if you want more protection from not only the outside sources, but predators as well, the cavities are the preferred location to raise young. But then, you know, there are issues with things like mites and fleas and things like that. And so squirrels do kind of move between nest sites.

[Alie Ward]

And let's say that you love a squirrel, you love all squirrels, and you would like to offer them a home in your yard. My dad and I shared a love of squirrels, and my dad built several squirrel condominiums and just hoped that someone would take up residence. I think he put a for rent sign on one. And so is there a Protocol. Is there a good way to attract a squirrel or to say squirrels, please, I would like to be your friend.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, certainly there are squirrel nest boxes that you could build and put out. And I've seen squirrels use nest boxes. But I think it kind of depends on where you are and what kind of squirrel you want to attract, like where you are. Ground squirrels probably have more ground nests than they do nests kind of up in the trees and things like that. But for those people who are in the Midwest and the east coast, having oak trees, having edge of forests, gray squirrels really love forest edges, much like white tailed deer. They really like those highly overlapping branches. They like that high number of tree counts. If you are a true Midwesterner and you like those big chunky fox squirrels.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So these are the ones with the grayish brown fur, but they have rusty reddish coloring on their faces and paws and tails. And when I leave peanuts out for the crows, the fox squirrels come by and say thank you very much. And they probably pretend to hide it if they think that I'm watching, which

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

are easily 20%, if not 50% larger than gray squirrels. They really like a much more open park like place. And so they don't want lots of overlapping trees. They really want to come down on the ground and do their eating and whatnot down on the ground. And so it kind of depends on where you live and what kind of squirrels you really want to attract.

[Alie Ward]

I have to ask as a. Have you ever gotten in a fistfight with birders?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So usually, I mean, I've been asked to come and speak to all kinds of Audubon societies and bird or groups and whatnot. And usually one of the first questions they want to ask me is how do I keep squirrels out of my bird? And so I do address this. I usually start off as like, okay, let's just, you know, let's talk about the elephant in the room first.

[Alie Ward]

The first thing you do, you break a bottle on the side of a table. Listen.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

But I talk about how cool squirrels are to watch, you know, and we talk about a lot of their behaviors. When I go and talk in public about squirrels and what it is I do and why it's important, one of the first things I try to bring up is that it's really only here, kind of in the US that we think of squirrels as like pests and a species to be managed and a species that's hunted. 80% of the world's squirrel populations are threatened or endangered. And I didn't expect that. Right. And for that reason alone, you know, we should take advantage of the fact that we have this opportunity and try and study them and learn more about them so that we can help answer questions for those places. And a lot of it comes down to right habitat availability.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

80% of squirrels are in decline. Okay, so the International Union for Conservation of Nature's Red List of threatened species lists the Namdafa flying squirrel, which is globally critically endangered. It's currently described by one known specimen that was collected in northeast India in 1981. It's the Sasquatch of squirrels. People think they see it sometimes, but they're usually confused and looking at a red giant flying squirrel. And Then there are 11 more globally endangered squirrel species like the northern Idaho ground squirrel. There's only about a thousand left. And Nelson's antelope squirrel, which is native to this vast California central valley that's mostly become farmland. I looked at pictures for longer than I needed to. That antelope squirrel. Oh, it's a cutie. So we've all been distracted, though, by the really successful and ubiquitous park squirrels. And yes, sometimes they're invasive, but meanwhile, other squirrels need our help. Well, they need their land back, really.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

One of my favorite places to talk about squirrels is Japan. And really, the only places you find squirrels anymore in Japan are the really old sacred shrines, because that's the only places left that have enough large old growth trees to support a population of squirrels.

[Alie Ward]

My gosh, just thinking about their getting shrunken and shrunken. I didn't realize that they were so threatened. I would always think they must be a species of least concern because they're so visible, and that's so fascinating. And I'm also wondering how many kinds of squirrels are there? And what's the difference between a ground squirrel, a tree squirrel, a flying squirrel. Where's chipmunks in this mix? Who are they?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Chipmunks are cousins. They're a cute cousin we keep them in, along with the groundhogs and other marmots and things like that. I believe I had to look this up, actually, because I wanted to make sure I gave you the correct number. Because I believe two weeks ago, whenever there was a publication about a new species of squirrel found. So I believe we're up to 280. 89 species of squirrels worldwide.

[Alie Ward]

Fewer than I thought, to be honest.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Right around 300 species from ones that glide where ziplines wish they could go to ground dwelling Tunnel cuties that I want to kiss but I won't.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It really comes down to where they're Used to nesting. What do they prefer? You know, tree squirrels versus ground squirrels. Flying squirrels are definitely a different grouping. A lot of physiological differences or anatomical at least differences there. But I mean, tree squirrels, I think they're usually what people picture when they think about a squirrel with the fluffy tail and everything. Ground squirrels, to me, are even more fascinating, if possible, because we know a little bit less about them. You know, they're underground, doing all those things that we can't really see, and I really want to know what they're doing under there. But they are highly related. They have lots of the same kinds of timings and activities and behaviors, for sure.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So to recap, the family Scurididae is in the order Rodentia, and it involves squirrels and chipmunks and even marmots and prairie dogs. But there is a smaller genus of just squirrels. But in general, all of these squirrels we're talking about may live in trees or the ground or have wildly different diets and lives, living up to 10 years in the wild or 20 in captivity. Imagine a squirrel that could legally get a driver's license, but not really, because it's a squirrel.

[Alie Ward]

You've had the privilege of being in this field since a young age, and technology has changed so much. Have you seen things change in terms of knowledge now that we can put a fiber optic camera and record on a tiny SD card that costs a dollar? Like, how has your work changed now that you can spy on them?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So for my dissertation, I studied a species of squirrels called the round tailed ground squirrel. It does not have a round tail. I don't know why it's called that.

[Alie Ward]

You didn't name it?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I didn't name it. It looks like a little baby prairie dog, and it has kind of a long, thin tail. And they. They live in the ground, in the desert. And so we really want to know how social these squirrels were. They were once thought to be this great model outlier in that the literature and all of the models say they should be very solitary and alone. But the two papers that were published in the mid-70s said, no, they are highly social. They're like prairie dogs. They form these family groups, you know, oh, my goodness. They have all these social behaviors. Da, da, da. And so one of the first things we wanted to know was, okay, so they're going down, and there are, you know, holes, entrances everywhere. How many are really connected? What are they actually doing down there? Is there a lot of social behavior going on under the ground? And my field site was the Casa Grande Ruins National Monument. In coolidge, arizona, where there are 69 recognized archaeological sites within one square mile.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's a beautiful, stunning place. But there was no way they were about to let me dig up and look at a ground squirrel burrow in any way, shape, or form. And in my four years working there, they did bring in an expert that had ground penetrating radar, and they were using it to look at some of their archaeological sites. And we were actually able to try and use it to kind of map out a burrow area. And we weren't incredibly successful, not as much as I wanted it to be. That was a long time ago. But now I think, right, in terms of fiber optic cameras. Yep. You can just slide one of those right down and in and sure enough, really see the extent of the burrow. And possibly you could actually even leave the camera down there and see any kind of social behaviors and actions and things like that. I know. I was there to study their mating system and things like that. And I never saw squirrels mate because they clearly were doing it underground.

[Alie Ward]

I guess they like their privacy. I suppose they like their privacy.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes. We saw evidence of mating. We saw copulatory plugs and things like that, but never an actual mating copulatory plug. Copulatory plugs, really? Yes. So copulatory plugs are this proteus gelatin piece that males will deposit in the female reproductive tract to try and stop her from mating with any other males.

[Alie Ward]

Well, that's a dibs.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

And lots of squirrels have this. Lots of mammals have these. And in most of the time, in just about all the squirrels I've studied, Females will just take them out and mate again.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Oh, this drama continues. Literal cock blocking. Actual cock blocking going on in squirrel romance. But before you go around flipping the bird to insecure male squirrels, Please know that copulatory plugs are also common in some primate species. Bees, kangaroos, reptiles, rats, rodents, mice, scorpions, spiders. But back to squirrels. We're talking about squirrels. So ground squirrels might keep this jizz tampon in for almost a day. But I found a study in the journal of mammalogy titled removal of copulatory plugs by female tree squirrels, which described these in fox squirrels and eastern gray squirrels as, quote, opaque white with waxy to rubbery consistency. And if you're eating right now, I'm sorry, and also, that's not my fault. But now that the scene is set Both visually and from a tactile perspective, it continues. Although copulatory plugs are hypothesized to prevent the successful copulation of subsequent males. Female tree squirrels often remove the plug within 30 seconds of copulating and either discard or consume it. Yeet it or eat it, babies. Yeet it or eat it. He's not the boss of you.

[Alie Ward]

Can they have litters with different paternal.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes, they can.

[Alie Ward]

How many uteruses do they have? They have one big one.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's kind of this weird corkscrew kind of shaped uterus. And so round tailed ground squirrels. I had a litter of 13 squirrels. For one of my females. I would say the average was usually three to four. And in eastern gray squirrels, the average litter size is between 2 and 3. But absolutely, those squirrels can be sired from different males.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay, so usually just a few baby squirrels are kits. Sometimes they're called kittens, unless you have 13 at a time. And perhaps that squirrel mom is related to my catholic grandmother, who had 11 children by the age of 30 and stark white hair. But let's get off the topic of my deceased and beloved catholic grandmother and talk about group sex in your backyard.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

We know that females will mate, multiply. Female gray squirrels will mate, multiply. They're only in estrus for eight hours. So they're only receptive to mating for eight hours. And in that eight hours, I believe the published number is 24 males. She will mate with up to 24 males in that eight hours.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, get it, girl. Is that eight hours a day or a year?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Mating season. So maybe twice a year.

[Alie Ward]

Wow. So she goes fast and hard.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yep.

[Alie Ward]

And then is there any paternal care or are they just like. I don't even remember. There's so much. It was an orgy.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Nope, nope. Just there and gone. See you never.

[Alie Ward]

And if they can reproduce like more than once a year, do they tend to give a lot of resources to their young, or is it kind of like we just kind of make as many as we can and then, you know, we wish them well?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, we know that lactation is incredibly expensive. And they tend to stay in the nest for probably six to eight weeks with mom after that. And then you can actually watch them. It's one of my favorite behaviors to watch, is you'll watch the juveniles come out of the nest and kind of play. And then you will see the female. You'll see mom come out and basically just yell at them and chase them off, and then they'll come back and at the end of the night and everything. But it's kind of this, you know, ritualized. Like, you kids, you stop, you quit this, you know, go, get out, go outside.

[Alie Ward]

And play right now. What about rat kings in squirrel nests? I've seen saps that can glue their tail together. It makes me want to throw myself in the ocean. I can't. It's the saddest, cutest, most terrible thing I've ever seen.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Yeah, okay. I explained that partly. But sometimes squirrel tails will get glued together by tree SAP. And we discuss this notion of a rat king in the Urban rodentology episode with Dr. Bobby Corrigan. But it's just awful. Please call a wildlife rehabber, and unless you see it in real life, don't look it up. Don't look it up. Don't look it up.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I get people all the time who call me with baby squirrels who have fallen out of a nest and things like that. And that is. That is not my jam in any way, shape, or form. I have several wildlife rehabbers on call, and so I send them to places much like that. But I will also get calls about squirrels who have mange, who've lost fur because they have a flea infection or something. And, you know, I just. I tell people, like, they know what they're doing, they know how to treat it. Let them go, and they'll be okay.

[Alie Ward]

What about rodenticide? Is that a threat? Since some of them are generalists?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Absolutely. Yeah. I've definitely worked in places that it's one of the main ways that they will control squirrels, particularly ground squirrels, when they don't want them in a place.

[Alie Ward]

I mean, I feel like gophers are like. Everyone hates a gopher. Culturally, it's. People are quite unfair to gophers.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right.

[Alie Ward]

But do ground squirrels cause that kind of damage to, like, lawns and sports fields and stuff like that?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

They can. They certainly can.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

And now a once in a lifetime chance to ask a personal burning question.

[Alie Ward]

I cannot believe that I have the opportunity to ask a ground squirrel expert about some hazing that I got from a squirrel. Okay, can I play you a noise, and can you tell me what's going on?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Sure.

[Alie Ward]

Okay. I was having a bad day last week. You know me. I get personal here. I was bummed, and my husband's like, let's go to the park and let's walk around. And I was like, that's a good idea. We did. And then this squirrel started yelling at us. This might hurt my heart, what you have to tell me, but that's okay. A little guy or girl is hanging out just under a bush maybe five feet away from us.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Calling you a predator. Little California ground squirrel probably is young down in the burrow and so it's just kind of that warning.

[Alie Ward]

We're such dipshits here. We were standing there longer because we're like, does she need help? Like, is she the lassie of a squirrel family? Like,

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

what is it, girl?

[Alie Ward]

We were like, what do we do? And then the whole time, she was like, go away.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

I hate you.

[Alie Ward]

But I mean, there's a reason why dog squeaky toys sound like that, right?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right. Exactly. And really, if you did not know right where she was, it would have been hard for you to locate it. It's a single tonal whistle. It's really hard for a mammalian predator to echolocate that and figure out exactly where that is.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, so she. She probably had some cute little babies that were underground not far from us.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

And if you've ever heard chirping or barking coming from a squirrel, there are correct terms. I just learned that scoridiologists have words for those, like barking like clicking Donald Duck calls. They're called cooks, quas and moans. And according to the paper joint tail and vocal alarm signals of gray squirrels in the journal Behavior, researchers from the University of Miami flew gliders painted like hawks, and they drove robot cats around campus towards squirrels. And they found that only sweeping back and forth tail movements known as flags and vocalizations called moans are associated with a certain predator type. Moans happened more often when there were aerial predators present, and the flagging with the tail happened when the cat approached. But they also found quas more strongly associated with aerial threats, too. They might also clack their teeth at other squirrels. But my point is that if a squirrel is chirping at you and twitching its tail, it wants you to please go to hell. It hates you.

[Alie Ward]

I've never seen so many ground squirrels in my life. I was like, that's awesome. I mean, they were everywhere. And this was a couple weeks ago, so this was like, late spring. Would there be a reason why they were out so much, or do you think it's just a really good place for ground squirrels because the oak trees?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No, I think it's probably just a great place for ground squirrels.

[Alie Ward]

It's just a party. Oh, that's exciting.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I know when I started to study roundtail ground squirrels, I was trying to find a population that would be good to study. And I was having a hard time kind of really locating a good, dense population. And I actually went to some snake researchers, and I was like, could you look at your records and tell me, like, where you have good populations and they came through? I mean, this is, you know, the perfect confluence.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, no. One tell the snakes. It's like they're gonna blow up this restaurant.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

But the squirrels, you know, they have a relationship with the snakes as well. Like, it's not like every time the snake sees the squirrel, the snake gets the squirrel. The squirrels fight the snakes. Right off I saw a pregnant female totally chase off a rattlesnake. You know, you could tell from the roundness of her belly that she was pregnant and kind of the snake was just coming through. And she started on high alert and let everybody know. And when it's a ground predator like a snake, they will also thump their back feet, let anybody underground also know that there's a snake, and she just completely chased them away. And it did not bite her. It didn't even really try to bite her. And she just kept pouncing on it and forcing it away.

[Alie Ward]

Okay, so I'm learning. Squirrels are cute and beautiful and they also will talk shit.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Oh, they're badasses.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah.

[Alie Ward]

And they'll cut you.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

We know that they have some resistance to some venoms and possibly even some rattlesnake venoms. We don't know quite how much, but certainly they have some resistance.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay, 2026 Allie here. And this is some shit that will rock you. We added it into this episode because last year we released a crotal episode episode with Dr. Emily Taylor, who is a rattlesnake expert. And it deserves to be in here. You deserve to hear it. Okay.

[Kelly Ripa]

Rattlesnakes have evolved in the past 12 to 14 million years.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Oh, okay. And how long have snakes been around?

[Kelly Ripa]

A lot longer than that. Many, many, many, many millions of years more than that. But certainly the ancestors of rattlesnakes were shaking those little tails when they were stressed out for many millions of years before that.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Is it kind of like how squirrels shake their tails when they're threatened?

[Kelly Ripa]

Well, it's funny that you say that, because squirrels in particular will shake their tails in a specific way when they see a rattlesnake.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

What?

[Alie Ward]

How?

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah, so actually when I' can see a California ground squirrel from a distance and I can tell if it's shaking its tail at a snake.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

No. What does it do?

[Kelly Ripa]

So they have this really specific tail flagging behavior where it will waggle back and forth and then stop. Waggle back and forth and then stop kind of sticking up. And Are you ready to have your mind blown? Because this is crazy. They'll do it to both gopher snakes and rattlesnakes because both of them could eat the squirrel and they're basically saying to the gopher snake or rattlesnake, I see you don't even bother hunting. You're not going to sneak up on me. Well, somebody had the brilliant idea of filming the squirrel shaking its tail using a heat sensitive infrared camera. And as people out there might know, rattlesnakes actually have heat sensitive pits on their face so they can see this infrared radiation. Gopher snakes don't. The squirrels know this instinctively. And they shunt blood to their tails and it lights up like a lightsaber in the rattlesnake's face. Only when it's a rattlesnake. When it's a gopher snake, they don't bother doing that. The tail stays cold.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

No. Incredible. And so that heat definitely shows up for the pit viper. And it's saying, all right, all right, you see me, I can't sneak up on you.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah. And they'll leave. Usually they'll leave after that and go hunt somewhere else where they can have that element of surprise.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

I know you are dying to know more about squirrels. And don't worry, we have a whole episode called Skritiology and it is wall to wall squirrel facts. And I'm glad it is in the world and in the show notes waiting for you. So the pit vipers, they're seeing this hot little tail and they just move on.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah, they'll basically pick up and move on and hunt somewhere else because they're ambush foragers. They're waiting for some unsuspecting rodent to run by.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Surprise, surprise.

[Kelly Ripa]

If the squirrel already knows they're there, then they might as well not bother. Plus the squirrels can get in their face. They throw dirt at them, they kick them, and sometimes they even bite them. Sometimes they even kill them.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Are you. How do they get the butt end of it?

[Kelly Ripa]

No, you know what, it's crazy. An adult California ground squirrel can survive a rattlesnake bite. How? They're resistant to their venom through coevolution. Well, okay, resistant doesn't mean immune. They sure do die and are eaten by rattlesnakes all the time. But mostly the rattlesnakes are eating the babies who haven't developed their resistance yet. Actually, it's through millions of years of co evolution, the squirrel that happened to have a slight resistance from a mutation more likely to survive, have more babies, pass that on, and then they're actually. The California ground squirrels are the reason the rattlesnake's venom is so toxic. Because it was only then, over this evolutionary arms race, that the Rattlesnake's venom, when mutation made it randomly more toxic, that that rattlesnake had more babies because it had more food and so on. So, you know, defense, offense, defense, offense.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

And are ground squirrels the only one that have this kind of relationship?

[Kelly Ripa]

Nope. Wood rats have it too. In fact, predators that eat rattlesnakes have it too. So certain predators can survive. Rattlesnake bites things like possums, probably badgers. Other predators are not resistant things like hawks and owls. And they just tear off the spicy end of the snake before eating it. I've seen a number of birds grab rattlesnakes and then versus grabbing a gopher snake. When it's a gopher snake, they just pick it up and go. When it's a rattlesnake, you see them kind of stamping around in the distance, and what they're doing is they're ripping the head off.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

I think they know they must. So that was Dr. Emily Taylor, who is a rattlesnake expert. We will link the crotallogy episode in the show. Notes highly suggest you enjoy that. Oh, speaking of biting, in all of

[Alie Ward]

your work, have you ever been bitten by a squirrel?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I have never been bit by a squirrel.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, I'm knocking on so much wood.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I have come close once and gotten a blood blister from kind of getting squished. But when we handle them, I use a cloth handling bag that's in the shape of a triangle. I actually usually describe it as a giant pastry bag. So if you imagine a giant pastry bag made out of like a denim material, we wrap the wide end around the trap opening because it's really easy to catch a squirrel. Peanut butter, sunflower seeds, things like that. But then you have a very angry squirrel in a metal cage. And so if you wrap the big end around the trap and open the door, the squirrel does not want to be in the trap and will run out and basically run into the narrow end and basically just wedge themselves into this pastry bag. And it's like being the same, like being swaddled physiologically. So they're in there. They're all kind of nice and tight. Their eyes are closed. Usually their nose kind of sticks out the very end. And they're very calm. And they can't open their mouth to bite me, and therefore I am very calm. They're not trying to run away. They're not trying to move or anything. They're just basically chill.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Yeah, of course. I looked this up, and I found fieldwork photos of Dr. Monroe on a campus Lawn in her lap, a pillowcase sized dark blue canvas sack pointed at one end. She is wearing a school bus yellow T shirt and it matches the shirts of her student assistants. And there's a small logo of the breast, an official seal of some sort. But on the back of the shirts in bold lettering it reads. It's the squirrels. They're watching me.

[Alie Ward]

What kind of alien abduction science do you have to do in order to make sure that their population is healthy? Like do you have to weigh them, do you have to take their temperatures? You have to check them for fleas. Like what kinds of things are scientists is looking for?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right? So this is usually, this is everything that we're doing. So we catch them, we weigh them, we take a whole set of morphological measurements, right? We want to know not just how much they weigh, but you know, how much of that is fat versus bone and things like that. Certainly I look for flea infections, I usually feel around, see if they have any broken bones, check their tails. I usually will check to see if they're pregnant or if they're lactating or things like that. Check to see if the males are actually active in reproduction. And then we mark them. So we put unique colored ear tags, uniquely numbered and colored ear tags into their ears. And when I do that I take a DNA sample. And then sometimes if we're going to see how far they're going to go and things like that, we can put a radio collar on them which is a necklace weighs less than 5 grams. And then we can kind of get an idea about, you know, the number of males, number of females, number of juveniles and things like that.

[Alie Ward]

If there is one that's injured or has a infestation can. Because you're a researcher and not a wildlife rehabber, where's the line between getting it help and letting nature do it its thing? How do you decide?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

My general default is to let nature take its course. I usually think if it's something that I personally have caused, I definitely have had a squirrel to kind of get a piece of skin, you know, on their nose or whatnot scratched from the metal trap or whatever, I will tend to swipe a little piece of sporin on that nose before I let them go. But generally speaking, I let nature take its course. I have not ever come across a squirrel that I've needed to do something significant about. I'd like to keep it that way as well.

[Alie Ward]

So I mean I feel like they just probably got wind of you and just respect you a lot. I think they're probably like, well, it

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

would make it so much easier if they would just kind of stand up and be like, hi, I weigh 250 grams. Here's my measurements. I'm not pregnant.

[Alie Ward]

I'm real knocked up right now.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Had a great time a couple months ago.

[Alie Ward]

What about. Oh, I have a million questions for you. I cannot tell you how exciting this is. If you could stand on a cosmic soapbox and have the biggest bullhorn ever to bust some flim. Flim about squirrels. What is the biggest misconception? That you're like, people? It's not like that.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I would say people often ask me about rabies, like, are I afraid to catch rabies? And things like that. And there's never been a case of a rodent carrying rabies. And so there's never been any kind of report of squirrels carrying rabies. And so that's why I don't mind working with undergraduate students. With them, I'm always present when undergraduates trap. But really the only thing they carry is tetanus. And so as long as students have had their tetanus shot, I'm generally not so worried.

[Alie Ward]

You were in Arizona, and I feel like in my brain someone says, squirrels, Arizona, bubonic plague.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Plague, yes.

[Alie Ward]

Did I make that up?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So bubonic plague is definitely a thing to be worried about. When I worked at the Casa Grande ruins, since it's a national monument, they would have their fleas tested annual to see if there was any chance of plague. And fortunately, all four years that I was there, there was no chance of plague.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay. So according to the cdc, small rodents like squirrels and hamsters and guinea pigs and chipmunks and ra. Rats, gerbils, and mice and bunnies are almost never found to be infected with the rabies. And they have not been known to transmit rabies to humans. However, groundhogs, they got a little more chunk in their trunks. They have bigger bodies, so they do get reported as rabid from time to time. Now, the bubonic plague has been transmitted by fleas on ground squirrels and wood rats and prairie dogs, but it's very rare. And please, I beg you to channel your anxiety toward really, anything else. Or as a Slate headline from the summer of 2020 read, you do not need to worry about the bubonic plague Squirrel in Colorado. And just reading that like, what a time machine. What an eventful few years it's been on planet Earth. Just, can we catch a break? But if you do feel very sick and have giant lymph node area nodules, just please see A doctor if you're in trouble. Speaking of being in trouble and confronting that sweet, sweet ache of mortality, the

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

most endangered mammal in North America is a squirrel species. The Mount Graham red squirrel is the most endangered mammal in North America. No, it only resides on one mountaintop. When I was there studying them, their numbers were probably in the two to three hundreds. I can say that a few years ago they were down below 100. They kind of come back a little

[Alie Ward]

bit, but is that all habitat loss or climate?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It is a. The Mount Graham is a. Is a whole ecosystem of a mess. So yes, there's a lot of habitat loss. It was slated to have two dozen telescopes built on the top of the mountain and they were denied and some were built. And then there was an insect infestation. It's sacred Native American land. There was several large forest fires. There's an endangered raptor that comes through that eats them. There's an introduced squirrel. I mean, like every plight that has affected an endangered species is there on the one mountaintop.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, sounds like they were cursed by a witch.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Hoo boy. So now might be an okay time to tell you that we have episodes on fire ecology, indigenous fire ecology, fulminology about lightning strikes that cause forest fires, and a recent field trip episode about raptors. I'll link them in the show notes. But yes, Mount Graham is a 10,000 foot tall peak in the southeastern corner of Arizona. So this Mount Graham red squirrel, it's about 8 inches long, it has dark gray brown fur and a white belly. I want a pet. And it enjoys a diet of seeds and pine cones and air dried mushrooms. Now this critter is endangered, but at one point in the era of Camaros and Aquanet, there was no hope.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

They actually thought that they were extinct into the mid-80s and a hunter brought one in. And wildlifers were like, oh, that is not the abrad squirrel that you should be hunting. That is probably the endangered Mount Grammar red squirrel.

[Alie Ward]

That must have been a huge day in the scoridiology community.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes.

[Alie Ward]

They must have been popping bottles. I know that they couldn't text each other, but they must have been paying long distance fees to be like, yes.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yeah.

[Alie Ward]

To be like, barbara, can you believe this?

[Kelly Ripa]

I got some news.

[Alie Ward]

That is so exciting. What about tiny squirrels on the big screen? Is there a favorite squirrel in film or TV that you're like, you got that right. Or I like that one.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You know, I do love me a scrat. I keep waiting for squirrel girl to come out. I have a number of squirrel Girl paraphernalias in my office and things like that. She was supposed to be in so many Marvel superheroes. I have so many figurines of her. I cannot wait for her Doreen to come out and show everybody what a badass she really is because she, you know, supposedly has kicked Deadpool's ass, you know, Thanos ass, you know, Wolverine. Like she is just this badass in the Marvel world. And yet I'm waiting. I'm waiting.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Just a short P.S. so LA is very small and I happen to know Milana Veintrop, the actress and the director who was slated to play Squirrel Girl for Marvel. And I texted her, I told her that she has a friend in the squirrel world and she said that that was the most giantest honor I know and she'd pass it along to Ryan north, the comic book creator who is the real hero, she says behind Squirrel Girl. And also there's a six episode scripted podcast series starring Milana called Marvel's Squirrel Girl, the unbeatable radio show. But if you want that movie or TV series, just feel free to get those petitions going, folks. Olaj, I have faith in you.

[Alie Ward]

Can I ask you listener questions?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Sure.

[Alie Ward]

I told them you were coming on. I told them that this was the best day of my life.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

But before your questions, each week we donate to a cause of the ologist's choosing and this week we're going to split it between two for Karen. One is Letters to a Pre Scientist which connects students to STEM professionals through snail mail to broaden students awareness of what STEM professionals look like and do it work. And the other is to Squirrel Mapper, a community science project that helps research researchers identify populations of squirrels and their morphs. Why, they ask? Because together we can crack this nut. So find out [e-mail] and squirrelmapper.org and those donations were made possible by sponsors of the show. Let me tell you something that annoys me. I hate that when I put better things in my body I look better and feel better. That's a real conundrum. But luckily the there are things that

[Alie Ward]

are easier to put in my body

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

that make me happy inside and out. And Ollie just launched a new line of probiotics and they're made to deliver all kinds of benefits even outside your digestive health. Their new precise probiotics are made with clinically studied strains to support not just your immune and your digestive health, but also your metabolism and your skin health, even your stress response. And I've been taking Ollie's new Precise Probiotics because of how, being honest, I've been eating like garbage. So a week or two, I said, no more. I'm gonna start eating nice things. I'm gonna get some probiotics in my belly. I'm gonna drink more water. Guess what? I'm looking better. My skin looks better. It's less red. And I'm happy to say I'm feeling better in my body by putting better things into it. And the ollie part is the easiest part of all of that. So shop precise Probiotics with skin stress response or metabolism support at a Walmart near you. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Alie Ward]

You have to say that there once

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

was a magic Sorry At Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex, we don't do fairy tales. We do real like real adventures to Mars or real journeys into the future to see how imagination can really take us to strange new worlds and real trips into to the past where we meet heroes and legends way ahead of their time. Real rockets, real astronauts, real adventure. All at Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

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[Alie Ward]

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[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

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[Dr. Karen Monroe]

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[Kelly Ripa]

What do I do?

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Well, there are 250 reasons to join T Mobile.

[Kelly Ripa]

Like what?

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

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[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So I wouldn't have to buy a new phone?

[Alie Ward]

Yep.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Plus your plan price stays the same for 5 years on experience plan Nice. Find your reason@t mobile.com

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

via virtual prepaid guard card typically takes 15 days after rebate submission price guarantee on talk text and 5G data exclusions like taxes and fees apply.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay, your questions. Let's start with one about goth squirrels, shall we? Asked by Cooper Moore, Kyla Murphy and Clay Mormon, who says, I've seen a ton of melanistic gray squirrels in Ohio and Toronto, but none in New England. And what's the deal? And Jess Shrazan has seen them in central Illinois, but almost none in and around Chicago.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Huh.

[Alie Ward]

Populations, Pockets of squirrels like the all Black squirrels in D.C. absolutely.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Yeah.

[Alie Ward]

The Canadian black squirrels. How did they get to DC and also la not supposed to have a lot of fox squirrels and yet here we are. They're everywhere. How did these Canadian squirrels get to dc?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

People love squirrels and they move them everywhere. That's the easy answer, right? So here I'm here in Ohio and the very classic answer is that a man went on vacation in Canada, found these black squirrels, fell in love with them, caught 10 of them, brought them back and released them.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So like anything having to do with Love and smuggling, it's complicated, but the Smithsonian in Washington says that it has the receipts dating back to the year 1900, when the superintendent of the National Zoo, one Frank Baker, was thirsty for the squirrels that Canada had and got about eight or ten of them sent. And they were the talk of the town at this zoo in Washington, D.C. and six years a few litters later, they were like, listen, the gray squirrels here in Washington are getting hunted too much. What say you to a little city upgrade by releasing a few of these melanistic ones just on the zoo grounds. Of course, that didn't go as planned. Nature finds a way. And so the squirrels that you see in some parts of the Northeast sporting this lustrous jet black fur are technically gray squirrels.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's a single gene. If you're missing one little part of your gray gene, right, you, you become this dark black squirrel. If you get both copies are black. If you get one copy, you're just kind of more grayish and you're, you're missing your white belly and things like that. But certainly, I mean, we have black squirrels here in Ohio. They are coming kind of moving down from Canada and dispersing down. And once the trait gets into the population, it just spreads. It's a dominant trait. So if you get one gene, it's going to be expressed so we see them more and more and more. I'm willing to bet that there is probably some thermoregulation advantage, but no one really knows why.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Listen, I know not everyone has a thermophysiologist that they can text on a whim, but I hit up my friend Dr. Shane Campbell Staton of the thermophysiology episodes. And he said, I would imagine being able to absorb more heat from the environment during a time when heat is at a metabolic premium like winter would have clear benefits. However, there's also a trend called Gloger's rule that says mammals should get lighter toward the poles. Ultimately, it probably comes down to which aspect of the environment is the biggest challenge, he said. And sure enough, yep, research has shown that Black mammals have 18% lower heat loss in temperatures below minus 10 degrees Celsius. And also when it comes to these squirrels, the darker morphs may survive the city better because researchers say they're more visible to drivers who are looking to avoid squirrel murder on their way to the post office. But remember, this morph didn't evolve to live in this part of the continent. And now also is a great time to plug Dr. Shane Campbell Staten's new and really stunning PBS show called Human Footprint which just premiered a few weeks ago. I've known he was shooting it for years. I'm so excited for you to see it. So I'll link it on my website. It's called Human Footpr Print on pbs. You can look it up. But yes, any melanistic squirrels in D.C. are likely descendants of Frank Baker's quest to populate the nation's capital with pretty little squirrel babies.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

People always say that they're smaller or they're meaner or they're more aggressive and I've not seen any of that in, in my studies they weigh the same as gray squirrels. I've definitely seen litters that are mixed black and gray.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, maybe different dads, possibly different dads,

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, but yeah, I mean it's just, you know, brunettes versus blondes.

[Alie Ward]

Al Ham is a first time question asker who appears to know a little bit about this and asked are the black squirrels introduced to several areas of the USA like Kent, Ohio, Holland, Michigan, some areas of Arizona, et cetera? Are they considered feral or because they were maybe escaped pets or does that even matter at the end of the day?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Most of the time it doesn't matter. So gray squirrels, whether they're black or gray, have been introduced all over the world and they typically will cause trouble wherever they go. They are able to outcompete most of the other squirrel species and we don't have a really easy answer as to why, why that might be. But people just love squirrels and so they take them and introduce them places where they really shouldn't be. And places like California where there is a western gray squirrel. The western gray squirrels are getting out compete by the eastern gray squirrels. Same kind of thing in Arizona. Same kind of thing in England. In Italy there's reports of eastern gray squirrels in the hazelnut farms.

[Alie Ward]

I love it, I love it, I love it.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

That's a problem economically. And then if they are somehow able to get over the Alps, they'll be into Asia and they can easily spread all over Asia. And so there are a lot of management concerns with people releasing pet gray squirrels. And there are lots of conservation organizations looking to rein them back and control them and manage those populations.

[Alie Ward]

I never even thought about if you've got an almond or a walnut orchard. Do they just not like the 10 extra like whole of those nuts?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right. It's so much better. Why would you bother eating an acorn when you can eat an almond or a walnut or a peanut?

[Alie Ward]

So then I wonder what almond farmers and Stuff do about that. I definitely see a lot of owl boxes near orchards, which, you know.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay, so I did look this up and catacomb of web pages led me to something called UC Integrated Pest Management program which said deep plowing, also known as ripping along perimeters of fields, will destroy burrow entrances and will help slow the rate of ground squirrel invasion in orchards. They also say burrow fumigants, toxic baits and traps currently are the most effective control methods. And I feel like I say this all the time, but on the topic of human footprints, even the most well meaning diet still affects the ecology. It just does. I have no answers for you, just an urge to have perspective. Okay, moving on.

[Alie Ward]

I thought this was an absolutely unhinged question and I'll ask it. Kate Webb, first time question asker, says there are species of flying squirrel in Michigan that fluoresce.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes, we didn't know that till just a few years ago. No one had any idea and they accidentally turned on a black light and it was like oh crap, this is like bright pink, bright purple. It's pretty amazing.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

For more on this you can see the paper using mass spectrometry to investigate fluorescent compounds in squirrel fur, which will treat you to the visual of this fuzzy furry flying squirrel cradled in the palm of a researcher exposed to black light. And the squirrel's belly looks like a neon pink hallucination. Why is this happening? Well, like many things, no one knows shit. But some scoridiologists hypothesize that fluorescent coloration on their bellies may help camouflage flying squirrels against predators that are UV detecting like owls. Because there are plants and lichen that also glow similarly. Also might be for mating, might be a communication tool. As a human you would need a canon event level breakup and a quart of manic panic to achieve it. It's amazing. 12 out of 10.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, I. That is like the Bob Marley poster that no one knew that they needed. Is there any reason why these squirrels would fluoresce? Kate Webb wants to know.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean they can see each other. Other things can see them or not see them. Right. The amount of UV radiation that happens at night is very different than the amount that happens during the day. The types of, you know, eye receptors and things like that.

[Alie Ward]

Do you think that they are better equipped to see that?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes.

[Alie Ward]

With night vision.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yep.

[Alie Ward]

Which brings me to Madison Hunter's question says, not sure if you will cover flying squirrels, but I had one as a pet when I was in middle school and I noticed it was quite active at night. And Madison Says I would usually play music to sleep, and I often caught it doing what appeared to be dancing to the music. Do you think it's possible that squirrels. Get down. Let's boogie.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I've never personally seen it. I don't want to say that it couldn't possibly, but I've never seen it.

[Alie Ward]

And what about the nocturnal versus diurnal? Like, is it totally dependent on the environment? And the squirrel?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So really, there aren't very many tree squirrels or ground squirrels that are nocturnal. Usually it's the flying squirrels that are nocturnal.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, and those again, in Lilaleko's words. Are flying squirrels closely related to walking squirrels or is that name just a misnomer?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's just a total misnomer. They don't fly at all. They glide. Right. There's nothing. They have no capacity to actually gain lift by, you know, flapping or anything. They literally are just taking advantage of the ability to get from point A to point B much faster by gliding than by going down the tree, running across the ground and going back up the tree.

[Alie Ward]

But thems is squirrels.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So everyone such as Dania Khan, Irina Dizazo, Erin Gunderson, Brittany Schaffes, Frances Hurst Brubaker, Kimberly Bryant, Hudson Ansley, and the squirrel queen, who asked about flying squirrels. The expert word is.

[Alie Ward]

So the flying is a no, the squirrel is a yes.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes, yes.

[Alie Ward]

Okay. Oh my gosh. I've never seen one in person, but.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So you need to go to Japan. So one of the questions I almost always get asked is, what's your favorite squirrel? Oh, they're like children. You cannot pick a favorite child. But if you're gonna press me, I will typically tell you it's the two Japanese squirrels. So the Japanese pygmy dwarf squirrel, which is teeny tiny little puffball, and Musasabe Mousasabe is an 8 pound flying squirrel.

[Alie Ward]

What? That's a baby? That's the size of an infant human.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's like the size of your house cat. Right. And so when it glides over your head, it's like somebody has hurled a trash can lid over your head. Speeds up to 35 miles an hour. When they hit the tree when they land, you can just hear this slam and then you hear them kind of climbing up and then they'll take off again. So I want you to picture a group of researchers in a very sacred Japanese shrine at 2, 3 o' clock in the morning with our red headlamps on, running from tree to tree as we try and follow these musasabe I was for sure, I was like, there are going to be headlines, you know, American squirrel researcher arrested.

[Alie Ward]

Well, someone asked if there was a black squirrel lab breach conspiracy, azm. Have you heard that they escaped from a lab? Is there a conspiracy about this?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No. And generally speaking, you know, taking squirrels inside is not always a good thing. They really do chew everything. I would not want a lab full of squirrels in any way, shape or form. Squirrels stay outside is what I always tease my students.

[Alie Ward]

If you had a pet male squirrel, would it be so horny all the time? Because that must be why they have giant balls, right?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right. There would definitely be points when it is super aggressive and wanting to get outside and things like that. Absolutely. People who keep squirrels as pets generally don't keep them for very long because once they get to that point, they are just aggressive and bitey and want out.

[Alie Ward]

Well, you've been in academia a long time and you've been researching squirrels for a long time. And we have a ton of people who I will list in an aside,

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

including Adrienne, who works on an elementary school campus and whose students have become obsessed with crime. Squirrel 1, who rifles through their backpacks, and patron Alec Joseph, whose friends have, quote, college squirrel trauma, and Mary Concannon. Natalie Jones, Chelsea Victoria Turner, Cassandra Grafstrom, Tara Tiger Studio. RJ Doidge, Emily Stouffer and Kyla Murphy

[Alie Ward]

want to know about college squirrels. They want to know, why are they so big. One says, what's up with U of M squirrels? RJ Doidge says, I dare say you haven't seen Rutgers squirrels. Emily Stouffer, what is up with squirrels on college campuses? They seem to never have a fear of people. Natalie Jones says, I've seen a college campus squirrel drag a whole bagel away.

[Kelly Ripa]

Stop.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Don't come back.

[Alie Ward]

What is it about college campuses and squirrels?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, they're diurnal. College students are mostly diurnal. And so, you know, they just go kind of hand in hand, I think because they are so charismatic. People feed them all the time. I mean, I can tell you that the squirrels on my campus are 20% larger than if they were just out somewhere else. And people know that I study squirrels on campus. I'm well known. Squirrel Doc is well known. But people still will feed squirrels. There is an Instagram account that is not run by me, just for our campus squirrels. And I sometimes get salty with them because I will submit good pictures and they are not chosen to be featured on the Instagram feed.

[Alie Ward]

How dare. How dare. Patricia G. Notes that they found A squirrel eating a hot dog bun in a tree a few weeks ago. I mean, just the idea of them eating whole hot dog bun. Chandler Withington wants to know, how do they not get poisoned when they eat mushrooms? Do they ever get high? How do they know I can't forage for mushrooms and I have a computer in my pocket.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So they do eat mushrooms that would be poisonous to us. So they clearly have a different digestive system processing system than we do. And they probably do have occasionally had psychedelic mushrooms. I have seen videos of squirrels drunk after they've eaten pumpkins or apples or things like that that have fermented and have alcohol in them and really can't climb up a tree very well. They kind of keep falling off and falling over and lack of coordination.

[Alie Ward]

Do you think they're having fun or do you think they're like, what the fuck? Why is the tree moving? Like, why is the tree spinning?

[Kelly Ripa]

Probably both.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Sometimes it's a fermented pumpkin, sometimes it's a fizzy crab apple, and sometimes it's standing under a keg like a rainforest shower. Reported by Buzz60.

[Alie Ward]

Operators of the Honeybourne Railway Club say when they opened up, they found beer spilled all over the floor, glass knocked off the shelves, and bottles scattered everywhere. Employees thought they'd been burgled. But then the culprit staggered into view. A slow moving squirrel, still apparently intoxicated from lapping up the fruits of his destructive rampage.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So it happens. And this is why squirrels don't have driver's licenses. Sad.

[Alie Ward]

Jess Donald wants to know, how many nuts could they fit in their mouth? And also, apologies if that sounds inappropriate. How big are their face purses? When it comes to their ludicrously capacious face, how much can they fit in there? Or do chipmunks really have that down?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Chipmunks really have that down. Squirrels still have pouches and they can pack some good food in there, but chipmunks are the ones really who kind of like, right, have that big expanding piece. And I do catch chipmunks in our traps. And my favorite thing is when you grab them, the first thing they do is just kind of regurgitate all of that that's in their mouth. It just kind of all just like, just falls out. Like, I am so sorry. You can have this later. I won't take it. You can come back for it. I'll leave it right here. Or better yet, or worse yet, it depends on how you think about it. Because I use peanut butter. Typically, the trap, they will have their cheeks stuffed with Peanut butter. And so then it's like the play DOH factory, this peanut butter kind of being squished out.

[Alie Ward]

So they're like, just take it. Just take it.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I don't want this.

[Alie Ward]

Nick McCosh wants to know, did squirrels invent maple syrup? Have you heard this?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No.

[Alie Ward]

I don't know.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, certainly they will eat SAP. Certainly they will pull the outer bark off and eat that inner camium and things like that, particularly when there's not a lot of food to eat. And so maybe you could say that they, you know, have long time taken advantage of that resource.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

What? It's true. According to the Journal of Mammalogy paper, Maple Sugaring by Red squirrels, in which Dr. Bernd Heinrich writes, red squirrels make a tap via a single pair of tap chisel like grooves from one bite into the sappy xylem layer of maple trees. But they write, quote, the dripping, dilute SAP was not harvested. Instead, the squirrels came back later and selectively visited the trees that had been punctured after most of the water from the SAP had evaporated. Yes. So they found this all over Vermont and Maine. And the Haudenosaunee legend credits squirrels with teaching indigenous folks how to tap and evaporate maple SAP. So, waffles brought to you by squirrels. Oh, speaking of food and water, patron Iris Hutchings had a question about what happens when squirrels get thirsty.

[Alie Ward]

Where are they drinking water from, actually? Do they get it from the plants they eat?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

From everything that they eat?

[Alie Ward]

Yeah. Is it good to set up like a little water feature fountain?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You can. They usually won't drink from it, though. It's not something they won't.

[Alie Ward]

So don't get your feelings hurt if they don't.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

And this one about squirrel memory was on the minds of Popita, Diana Teeter, Alexandra Catul, Anke Lausch, Lorene Evans, Taylor Faulkner, Jeff Berg, and Alex Keeley.

[Alie Ward]

A ton of people want to know how do they remember where they hid their food? Do they have that kind of memory year after year?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Probably not year after year because most of the resources are probably gone within a year. We do know that the size of their hippocampus, which we know is used in spatial memory, does increase in the fall when acorns are present. There's research that clearly shows that I was part of that as an undergrad as well. The size of the hippocampus in spring versus fall, it's much larger in fall for them to try and remember that. But that's a great question. It's one of the things that my lab has just started to try and take on. I have some hypotheses that say that some species of squirrels are probably. I don't want to say that they are better at at remembering, but probably better at relocating. Scatter hoards of acorns, things like that.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Also, in case you think scatter hoarder is an unnecessary insult, it's not just a way to say that you're a mess squirrels. It's just a mammalogy scorpiology term for hiding your shit in a few different places, which is a thing that you might do with lip balms or money, except it's lunch and it's in the dirt.

[Alie Ward]

A few people, including Amanda and Chase panics want to know. By the way, I just want to say, never in 350 episodes of this podcast have I gotten so many questions that start with a story, and that is the best. Amanda says, I have a squirrel that comes to my window and waits patiently until I give it nuts. It looks like she gets excited when she sees me and recognizes me. Can squirrels recognize individual human like crows can? And Chase and others want to know, like, do they remember friendly faces or are you of any machine?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I don't think so, but I'm willing to bet that her behavior is the same every time and so she recognizes the same behavior.

[Alie Ward]

Madison Hunter and some other people.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Also, Wild Pack of Dogs, Nicole, dj, Dave, db, Airmaker and first time question

[Alie Ward]

asker Julia Suomella wants to know if you've seen Mark Rober's squirrel obstacle course videos.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So the first challenge is the bridge of instability. Now, this may look easy, but the trick is it attaches at a single point on each end. And from a physics standpoint, that makes it no different than trying to crawl across a tightrope.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So these videos went up during the early pandemic and they feature a backyard squirrel. Well, several going through what is described as an American Ninja Warrior course to reach a bird feeder. These videos have racked up hundreds of millions of views.

[Alie Ward]

How do you feel about them?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, mean, it's awesome. And I love that. I love it when people ask me about, you know, they'll describe their entire setup of bird feeders and things like that. It's so great. And it just shows really how smart they are and, you know, spatially conscious. And then he has the whole piece about, like when they get launched that they always do land correctly. And you can really easily watch how they use that tail as a rudder in there and everything. And so it's it's just perfect. It's great. But people do this all the time. They'll be like, I had the spring and then I used Vaseline and greased this, and this is far from here. And they have to do this and they have to, to go here and

[Alie Ward]

like, yep, it's amazing everyone, I guess, with a backyard looking at you.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Katie Courtright and Ebby Sage Scarberry. Grace Robichaux.

[Alie Ward]

Katie Armstrong wants to know, how do we keep the bird feed safe? Jenny Lowroad wanted to know, why do they eat all the bird seed with capital A and rainy. Emily asked this question. So my grandfather is constantly at war with squirrels because they eat his bird seed. And, and their question was, is it bad for squirrels to eat bird seed or just some beef that my grandfather has with the squirrels? And I was like, emily, I hate to tell you that I think your grandpa's just team bird here, but is there anything bad about birdseed or is it just that they're taking from birds?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No, it's just that. Yeah, no, there's nothing bad about bird seed or things like that. And my answer, my best answer, so listen up, is hot pepper birdseed. Go someplace that sells specialty bird seed, gets a hot pepper bird seed. It'll stop the squirrels from eating it. It'll stop the deer from eating it, it'll stop the raccoons from eating it. And then once you've, you know, dissuaded them that the bird feeder is not where they want to be, then you can kind of mix 50, 50 hot pepper bird seed and regular bird seed and maybe even go back to just regular bird seed until they figure it back out again. And then you have to go back to the hot pepper bird seed. But that is my. That is my only. It's my best advice.

[Alie Ward]

And that's nature. That's just birds can't taste it. It so. Right. We did a chickens episode recently about putting red pepper flakes in your chicken feed. Not only are the squirrels like, hell no, but also you get really beautiful orange yolks.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yep.

[Alie Ward]

But it does bring me to a question a lot of people want to

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

know, such as Cynthia Connor, Catherine Finney, Megan Guthrie, Maya Jerry Webb, Pascal Perrin, and Jackie Ross.

[Alie Ward]

How does one protect their gardens as much as they love them? Allison P. First time question asker. How do I get schools to stop stealing my sunflowers? Catherine, apparently squirrels are digging up the vegetable garden. Heather Heater did call them furry terrorists. Jackie Ross, is there any real way to stop them from eating your plants?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Nope. World domination. For sure.

[Alie Ward]

What about a net? Get a net.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I mean, sure, you can try a net and keep them and the birds out, but sometimes, I mean, they're pretty smart and they can kind of get, usually get between the fence and the net, unlike the birds who just kind of go from the top. And so it's hard, especially if you live someplace that has ground squirrels or groundhogs or woodchucks, like you're, you're in trouble.

[Alie Ward]

Well, they got some judgment from some people who wanted to know why they taunt us by not eating the whole thing.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Camille Charlebois RIP to your half eaten tomatoes.

[Alie Ward]

And Nina Giacobe says, why do they taunt me by leaving half eaten strawberries on the edge of my garden? Apparently Marika says, why do squirrels leave treats and leftovers on my windowsills? Why do they not finish?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I have complained about this too. They will eat one bite out of the tomato and then put it down and then reach the next one and eat the next bite of the tomato. And so it's not like they respect me either. I think it comes from that natural behavior to not eat the whole acorn, not eat the whole seed.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Right.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So like they'll eat the top half of the acorn because it has less tannin, so it means more protein for them and then drop it and move on to the next one. And because it is so abundant, you know, we could use our marginal value theorem, talk about optimal foraging, that it's just better to take the best bite and move on.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Take the best bite and move on people. Horrible strategy for humans. Works good for squirrels.

[Alie Ward]

Who can be so frustrated with them? I mean, who doesn't, I guess, want to just go to a smorgasbord it try a little nibble of everything, I

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

suppose, eat the best part of the strawberry and just, you know, up the rest of it.

[Alie Ward]

Stephanie Coombs wants tips on keeping them out of my shed. Aside from rebuilding it. If they trap them, will they come back? And again, a great story, but in terms of hiding mushrooms, apparently Stephanie's rubber boots were filled this year with mushroom, which is so cute. But if you wanted to keep them

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

out of a structure such as attic squirrel having Hannah Nolan and James Nance and Ness and Sidney I and Abby Grebe, who struggles with garage squirrels.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You need to make sure that there's no way they can get in. Usually we have to make sure you block up any holes or entrances or things like that because if you don't take them very far away, they will most likely Come back.

[Alie Ward]

Art by DJ has a weird one. They say a neighbor had a squirrel one by one steal all the bulbs off her string of deck lights, chewing them off at the cord and then just running away with them. Have you ever heard of this?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yes, and I don't know why. So their incisors continue to grow. So they have that need to continue to gnaw for their entire lives. They keep their tooth wear down and there definitely are some plastics that seem to be more favored than others. And so I don't know what the component of the plastic is. I can tell you on our campus they bought some of the recycled plastic picnic tables that are supposedly made from corn cobs. Oh, apparently those are very tasty. Oh, any like hole or break or anything? Squirrels are just in there gnawing and chewing. And I don't know if it's because it's just ever such a slightly softer plastic or if there is actually something tasty remain left over in that corn plastic.

[Alie Ward]

Well, I gotta say I had a Prius horn stopped working. I don't know where I took it and I said, what's up with my horn? I said, let me know if you find any dead raccoons in there. Lolol they call me back. They're like, you got a nest in your car? They cracked over my hood, half an orange, a bunch of snail shells and apparently the wire harness in Toyota Prius's is lubed with soybean oil and it is scrumptious. You've heard, I'm sure you've heard this a lot, right?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yep, that's soy plastic, so.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, it was so cute. But there was also so much poo and I was like, that almost sounds

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

like use rats, right?

[Alie Ward]

Yeah, it's probably rats. Okay, squirrels, you're off the hook. Another reason why I love Patreon questions is because this I did not know a lot of people.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

James Hales, Ama, Craig Sidoni s and

[Alie Ward]

Iris Hutchings words asked, is it true that red squirrels will chew off the go nuts of gray squirrels to decimate the gray squirrels population? Is that true that they castrate each other with their mouths?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Never, never. No. Red squirrels are definitely far more aggressive than gray squirrels or fox squirrels. I generally say my rule of thumb is the smaller the squirrel, the more aggressive or the larger the squirrel, the more dopey it is. But no, there's none of that happening. So if there are red squirrels around, they will typically chase off the gray squirrels and fox squirrels, but there's no interaction like that.

[Alie Ward]

Oh Flim flambusted.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So I think sometimes people kind of misjudge that, because when males are sexually active, you can clearly see their testes. They're rather large.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

You've got a set of balls.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

But when they're not sexually active, those testes regress back up into the body cavity, and so then you don't see them.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, so they put him into retirement.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yep.

[Alie Ward]

Okay, well, that's good, because I was about to. That blew my whole mind. But as long as you're busting flim flam, let's talk TikTok. Amanda Lask, first time question asker, and a bunch of other people.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Matthew whitman, Lenny olseth, Laurel, Jen squirrel alvarez, Amy ducre, Stephen shelley, and Danielle zonis, all asked about TikTok user Andy Witch's February 2023 video that apparently demonstrated some kind of squirrel mind control by undulating an outstretched arm toward a squirrel on this suburban street. Andy witch. How literal is that last name? Because I love it. Also, what and why?

[Alie Ward]

How. What the hell is up with the wave hand motion thing that's supposedly mind controlling squirrels? Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I know completely what you're talking about. Learn a cool life hack of controlling squirrels.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

You could actually control squirrels by using

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

your hand in a wave motion, and

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

you could see that the squirrel comes towards me. I learned this from a friend who

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

was in the squirrel club. So now the squirrel's super close to me.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

You could do this on all squirrels. Be careful.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I had to try it because I was like, I've never seen this. I have no idea. I've had zero luck. So I don't know what this is. The only thing I can think of is that it kind of mimics, like, the giving of food. And so. So maybe squirrels who are in urban parks who are used to being fed by humans, recognize that kind of up and down motion. But I don't have another explanation.

[Alie Ward]

Well, as long as we're communicating with appendages. Chris whitman, Jeanette moss mccurdy, Megan Guthrie, they want to know, in Chris's words, what does the fast tail twitching mean? What are they communicating with their tails,

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

typically when it's kind of flipping back and forth, that's kind of a predator alarm call. It's a visual predator alarm call.

[Kelly Ripa]

Okay.

[Alie Ward]

Okay. If they're twitching and screaming at you, they're like, you're gonna kill me. Get out of here. I hate you.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Stranger danger. I'm telling everybody around me, there's a predator here.

[Alie Ward]

Wow. They're trying to Cancel you is what they're doing.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yep.

[Alie Ward]

Because we could kill them.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

And I see you.

[Alie Ward]

Yeah, we are predators. There's squirrel hunters are out there. Have you ever eaten squirrel?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Not knowingly. I feel like that's a line you can, you can't cross. Right. Like I'm sure that somebody has spit it to me at some point, but not knowingly.

[Alie Ward]

Do you have any enemies? Do you think anyone's done it just for, just to spite you?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

No, not that I know of. But I'm sure somebody, you know, would think that that would be a welcoming kind of thing.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

And if your toes curled and your throat seized hearing that, I do have some historical news. So a lot of humans have been eating a lot of squirrel for a long time. And squirrels have been called, called the chicken of the trees. And in some cultures, squirrels are considered kids food. Truly the chicken nuggets of the woods. And there are 1.5 million registered squirrel hunters in the U.S. many ecologists and chefs praise squirrel hunting as more humane and less ecologically devastating than factory farmed meat and a potential control of invasive species of squirrel. It's also from a taste perspective, said to have a nutty, gamey quality. They can be swapped out for rabbit in some recipes. You know, President James Garfield, he liked this protein source so much that the 1887 White House Cookbook features a recipe for squirrel soup and that involves lima beans, potatoes, tomatoes, corn, butter, celery, parsley, and the use of a coarse colander so as to get rid of the squirrel's troublesome little bones. Well, the recipe concludes with a self review. Very good.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Squirrel hunting is a million dollar a year business in Mississippi. Like it is a hugely popular pastime. So it is a reason for management of squirrel populations to keep numbers high so that people do have access to them. The squirrel that was introduced on Mount Graham was introduced purely for hunting purposes so that people would have a squirrel to hunt.

[Alie Ward]

Oh wow. Until we did a mountain goat episode, I didn't realize exactly how much. Obviously conservation effort is also like we gotta crunch the numbers so we can figure out how many it's cool to kill, which is better than not crunching the numbers. But you know, historically a lot of conservation is also paid for by hunting licenses too.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So it goes back and forth.

[Alie Ward]

I think that there maybe might be a notion that like if you hunt this animal, you don't care about their well being, but it, it's way more complicated. We covered this in the deer episode too, but I feel like there's a very urban and Rural divide, where it's like, if you go out and hunt any animal, you are a sociopath. But. But it's absolutely fine to have bacon at a diner in the city, you know?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right, right. I get asked questions all the time by squirrel hunters. They want to know, you know, better ways to find squirrels, catch squirrels, things like that. I also get asked by fishermen about squirrels because squirrel fur is used in a lot of fishing lures, so fly fishing lures.

[Alie Ward]

And so what about Jacqueline Whelan and Kate Armstrong and Vita Trincali wanna know in kitty birds. Is it true, though, squirrel has a range of about 10 miles and it can find its way home if you drive it 10 miles away and drop.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Probably 10 miles is a little far, but not crazy far. Yeah.

[Alie Ward]

Really?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I'm definitely taking squirrels five miles and had them reliably come back. So particularly during mating season and things like that, males will go pretty far.

[Alie Ward]

How are they doing that?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

World domination. No, I mean, they spatially have good recognition. Clearly they have some kind of. I don't want to say homing, but they clearly have some kind of spatial recognition where they can come back.

[Alie Ward]

That's amazing. I wonder if we'll ever find out. They have, like, pigeon magnets in their head, you know?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Right. Some kind of. Yeah, some kind of compass, you know?

[Alie Ward]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

And that compass might be the hippocampus, which not only helps squirrels with their spatial memory to recall all that scatter hoarding, it could be at play when it comes to squirrels making their way back home, which can definitely happen when people trap, like an attic squirrel and then drive five or 10 miles away and release it in a new part of town, and they're like, whew, glad that's over. And then a few days later, it's like back at your window being like, wow, ghosted. Brutal. And then you have to atone to their furry little faces, which you maybe never wanted to see again. I don't know. Blame their brains. World domination.

[Alie Ward]

Megan lynch, who was a cariboulogist who studies carob trees in Davis, left a question about an introduced species learning to break into these tough, raw pods of another introduced tree. Does one pioneer squirrel learn something? And do they teach each other? Like, how much of that kind of communal living in squirrel drays is teaching each other things?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

So, I mean, we don't really know about social learning in terms of like feeding an acorn or things like that, but a lot of their food has kind of that harder outer shell. So acorns, buckeyes, walnuts, like all Those kinds of things have that really hard carapace that they have to get through and kind of de shell. And so the carapod, to me probably isn't all that much different than a buckeye or something like that where they really kind of have to break off that outer husk to get to the inside piece. And those teeth are sharp and they have a lot of pressure. They can crush a lot of things.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

For more on carob, the not chocolate tree with a bonkers history that might be growing on your street. We'll link that episode in the show

[Alie Ward]

notes and last listener question. I could literally talk to you for like 10 hours. You are so lucky that you did not get seated next to me on a flight to New Zealand, because I would be. You'd be like, I need to sleep. A good question that I didn't even think of. So many people.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Brittany Kaufman, MN9 and of course, Camille.

[Alie Ward]

In Camille Charlebogne's words, what's up with squirrel poop? I have never seen it. Does it exist? Where is it?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

It's in the grass. It's in the ground. I mean, it's kind of like tic tacs, like jelly beans.

[Alie Ward]

Like, do they poo in their nest or is that a no?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

Yeah, typically there is kind of an area where it'll collect and things like that, but, you know, if possible, they'll go outside.

[Alie Ward]

Other than podcast hosts, what's the worst thing about your job other than me asking you questions forever because you're the best.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

But that's just it. There's not. That's not a bad part of my job. Right. Like when I realized I could kind of mix the genetics and wildlife piece to be helpful. You could think about charismatic megafauna and how cool it would be to work on, you know, mountain lions and things like that. And then it was like, no, I could have this charismatic minor fauna. I don't want to say micro, because they're definitely not that small and they're not really meso because they're not kind of medium like skunks and raccoons. But, you know, everybody knows them and pretty much everybody has a story, has a love hate relationship with them. Those are the things that make the best stories and really allow you to kind of connect with somebody and have them learn a bit about ecology and the world and talk about things like climate change and forests and hook somebody and make them passionate and make just a genuine human connection and really see each other and pass all the other stuff. And so it's kind of nice and so there really isn't a bad part.

[Alie Ward]

But what does suck about it, though? Get real with us.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

When I was in Arizona and trapping at 110 degrees or on top of Mount Graham and, you know, in 10ft of snow, in snowshoes, trying to find the one squirrel nest and determine if there is a squirrel, it's not always the most fun. It's always the most comfortable.

[Alie Ward]

What about. Have you ever had a favorite moment on the job?

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

I do. So when I started here at Baldwin Wallace, they were very concerned that people would be worried that I was harming squirrels and that PETA would be protesting and things like that. And I was like, I invite anybody who has any questions to come with me. Come, you know, come trap with me. Watch the squirrels, watch what I do. You will see that I am not inflicting pain, that they are happy to be there, they're happy to have their peanut butter treat. And, you know, we try to minimize any kind of discomfort and the time that they're with us and things like that. And so I have a film crew from a news station with me, I have university relations with me, and I have two students, and we're catching squirrels and going through. And at some point, a summer camp realizes that there is a kind of a something going on over here, and we kind of want to see what's going on. And so at some point, I kind of look up from measuring shin bone lengths and things like that, and I am surrounded by probably 30, 30 kids. You know, every color, size, shape, every kind of background, and they're all just watching me, just completely fascinated, and they don't know what's in the giant pastry bag, you know, and they're trying to figure that out, and they're asking me questions, and my students are, you know, trying to be calm and answer questions. And the news is fascinating, you know, so they're showing the kids, showing me and showing the kids, and. And it just was at that moment that you realize, like, this is what you want as a scientist, like, this is what you want. You want to ask questions, get answers, and then have that information put out into the world. And so there's a picture of me, and it's me, and I have a squirrel kind of sitting on my leg, and there's a squirrel on the ground. And my two students are doing things, and you can just see these legs, these legs of the students in the back of the picture. And that's probably one of my favorite moments.

[Alie Ward]

This has been just such a joy. I cannot tell you the emotions I had when I clicked on your Instagram and saw like the follow back, I was like, carrot Bornos Mendras.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

See? And I had just the opposite. I had the complete imposter. Like, why does she want to talk to me?

[Alie Ward]

No trust. I looked at your research and I was like, this is the squirrel expert for me. I would accept no others.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

So don't be scared to ask smart people squirrely questions and then just scatter. Hoard that information for your next dinner party. Now you can follow Dr. Karen Monroe at squirreldoc, which is linked in the show notes. We also link to the two causes we donated to in her name. Thank you hugely to Erin Talbert, who admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwyer does the website. Our scheduling producer is Noelle Dilworth. Susan Hale is our managing director, who does it all. Jake Chaffee is an editor. Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio is our lead editor. Nick Thorburn squeaked out the theme music. And if you stick around to the very, very end, I tell you a secret. And this is 2026. Ally, here is the 2023 secret that I told you way back then. July, three years ago, almost to the date. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this week it's that I am still sick with pneumonia. I'm recording this in bed where I've been for the last 12 days. And I keep getting a lot of messages being like, don't work, don't work, don't work. And I'm like, how do I not? But also, I love this job. And let's be honest, I'd probably be researching squirrel brains anyway. But I'm on the mend, and that's good. Okay, back to present me, 2026 listener. I was not on the mend. In the weeks that followed that episode, I went back to the hospital. I was admitted for three days, and then I had to take six weeks off on a vacation that was really more like some anxiety rehab, if I'm being honest. That was forced on me by my doctors and my closest friends. So let this be a lesson. Don't run yourself ragged. And sometimes you need a little more R and R than you think. Also, it made me feel very good about putting this up as an encore three years later, because that means I have learned my lesson at least a little bit. And I have been run a little ragged lately. And this week I was just like, you know what? I need A little more shut eye. So look at me learning lessons, y'.

[Alie Ward]

All.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Okay, say hi to the squirrels out there. God, I love them. Oh, I love squirrels. All right, have fun. Bye. Bye.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

She had actual squirrels in her pants.

[Alie Ward]

Hey, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you don't know, I have a podcast where I get to say whatever I want.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Hold on.

[Alie Ward]

Let me get a shovel and a body bag.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

I envision doing a podcast with the

[Alie Ward]

conversations that happen in my dressing room off camera, where people feel free to talk.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

No hair, no makeup. This is my kind of job.

[Kelly Ripa]

Only Kelly Reaper can ask me these questions.

[Alie Ward]

I'm flipping the script and saying what's

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

really on my mind.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

We're seeing a different side of you. It's a little bit more honest.

[Alie Ward]

When the cameras go off, the real fun begins.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Get my hair done over here.

[Kelly Ripa]

Half.

[Alie Ward]

This is an off camera podcast, so it doesn't even matter. It's unfiltered conversations and unexpected confessions.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

My mom says, woody, I knew your dad.

[Alie Ward]

Stop the presses. I would like to volunteer to administer any and all DNA tests.

[Podcast Host (Ologies)]

Maybe that should be part of the show.

[Alie Ward]

Let's talk off camera with me Kelly Ripoff.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

You just put that in the universe.

[Alie Ward]

Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Karen Monroe]

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