← On Purpose with Jay Shetty
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Dr. Lisa Miller: Feeling Lost, Stuck or Anxious? (Use THIS Spiritual Framework to Finally Move Forward With Clarity)
01:31:26
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- [00:00]
Jay Shetty
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- [02:17]
Dr. Lisa Miller
A spiritual life is 80% protective against addiction, 90% protective against the epidemic of our time depression.
- [02:26]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Why should someone who's never considered themselves spiritual even consider tapping into their spirituality?
- [02:31]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Spirituality can fulfill our deepest calling. It allows us to see where the universe is guiding us and then do something about it.
- [02:39]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Do you believe everything happens for a reason?
- [02:42]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Do you shift from asking, why is this happening to me? To how is this happening for me?
- [02:52]
Jay Shetty
Hey everyone.
- [02:53]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest on on purpose is Dr. Lisa Miller, psychologist, Columbia professor and author of the Awakened Brain. We're going to explore the science of spirituality and how connecting with something bigger can transform your mental resilience and sense of purpose. If you felt stuck or disconnected, this conversation will help you see life through a more awakened mind. If you're listening and loving the conversation, please do go and grab a copy of the Awakened the New Science of Spirituality and Our Quest for an Inspired Life by Dr. Lisa Miller. Please welcome to On Purpose. Lisa. Lisa, it's great to have you here, Jay.
- [03:40]
Dr. Lisa Miller
It's so great to be here. Your whole studio feels full of peace and love.
- [03:44]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Oh, well, that makes me very happy. Thank you for saying it means the world to me. My first question for you is, if someone was to listen to our conversation today and to apply the things you share and say, how would their life change?
- [03:58]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Immediately we can awaken to the reality that every single one of us is loved, held, guided, and never alone. This is not a belief. This is our inborn, natural spiritual awareness.
- [04:12]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
One of the things I find interesting about your work and why I wanted to have you on the show is because I've always felt for a long time that there are a lot of people who identify with being scientific and may not feel spiritual. And then there are other people who identify as being spiritual but don't feel scientific. And the reality is that science and spirituality are far closer in their work and their ability to synchronize than we actually believe. And I love that you bring these two together. Can you talk to me about how you've been studying spirituality in a scientific way and how science can back up the claim you just made? That we could live a life knowing that we're not alone, that we're cared for, that God, the universe, a higher power is always there with us. How does science show that?
- [04:58]
Dr. Lisa Miller
So, Jay, you're so right. For the longest time, we've had two camps of people. One camp said, I am a very scientific person. I only take to be true that which is rigorously shown by science. So what is this spirituality stuff? And then the other camp said, I am a deeply spiritual, perhaps spiritual and religious person. I know this in my heart to be true. I don't care what science can or cannot show. Finally, science and spirituality do go hand in hand. Science is only a lens. It's a lens of witness, whether it's a telescope or a microscope or an MRI study. And we can point our lens at a great number of questions, including the impact of lived human spirituality onto the rest of our lives and including the deep nature of spirituality in every single one of Us and the journey through which, across our lifespans, spirituality burgeons and develops. Science is actually not antithetical to spirituality. Science can contribute to a deepening of spirituality.
- [06:05]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Absolutely. Why do you think people right now are moving away from organized religion and moving towards spirituality?
- [06:13]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Well, there's definitely a trend right now that particularly Gen Z is so hungry for spiritual life because sadly, over the past two or three decades, our culture has gotten more and more silent. Really? We've had an ice age over the past three decades of spiritual life in the center of society. Our public square has experienced an ice age of 30 years. When it comes to spiritual life, there is now a whole generation Gen Z that is saying, you know, I know there's more. I feel this tremendous love and I wonder where to take it, what to do with it. My deep inner wisdom, my gut instinct is telling me information. And there's nowhere in school that I've learned where this information comes from. The only way to realize who we are is to own our birthright, which is our inborn natural spirituality. Spirituality is not a belief. It is an inborn deep seat of perception. Spirituality is not a theory or a belief. Spirituality is a perception that is hardwired in our brain. Spirituality. According to science, we know three things about spiritual life. 1. Every human being on earth is born naturally spiritual. No matter what our tradition, whether I'm Hindu, Catholic, Jewish or spiritual, not religious, every single human being on earth is born a naturally spiritual being. 2. There are even circuits in the brain. One spiritual brain and everyone on earth has it. 3. Although spirituality is inborn, it is 1/3 inborn, 2/3 environmentally shaped. Which means we are invited to do our part in strengthening the muscle and building our gift of natural spiritual awareness. The question is not am I spiritual? You already are spiritual. The question, the real question is how do you wish to accept the invitation? How do you wish to build your spiritual life?
- [08:16]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Why should someone who's never considered themselves spiritual up until this point even consider tapping into their spirituality? Why should they do that?
- [08:24]
Dr. Lisa Miller
The data is so strong that it blinds the eye. A strong spiritual life is 80% protective against addiction, 90% protective against depression when we're otherwise at high risk. 82% protective against the epidemic of our time, which tragically is suicide. A young person's more likely to die by suicide than by what used to be the number one cause of death, which was auto accidents. We have an epidemic of the diseases of despair in most post industrial countries. And yet we also have the antidote which is strengthening the muscle of Our natural spiritual awareness.
- [09:03]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Talk to me about the link between spirituality and depression. What does someone who has a spiritual life, what are they doing that's making them less depressed?
- [09:12]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Depression is often viewed only as a medical illness, but that's actually an error. Very often people say, you know, I have depression or I have addiction. That's a medical, biological condition in my brain. Spirituality is something else. It's sort of ethereal, actually. Spirituality has circuits in the brain. Any deep, profound human capacity has circuits in the brain. The question is, how can we strengthen our natural spirituality, Body, mind and soul, Brain, mind and soul. How can we awaken our brain to move through depression, through addiction, to a more profound understanding of life? Depression is often the knock at the door for a spiritual awakening. Depression doesn't mean we're off the path. Depression means we are on the path. Anxiety, even trauma, can be the first phase towards looking more deeply at life. Widening our lens, starting to feel a presence in our heart, authorize our inner knowing. Suffering makes us more sensitive. Suffering makes us ask bigger questions. Ultimately, suffering widens the lens, and suddenly we see. We let into the aperture a frequency of light we hadn't seen before, which is the fact that every single bit of our lives is cast in divinity. From the view of science, when depression is met with a spiritual response, what God do you ask of me? What higher power are you revealing to me? How might I love more deeply despite betrayal? How might I forg and therefore release myself from the entrapment of anger? When we cultivate a spiritual response to depression, to sorrow, betrayal, we literally strengthen regions of the brain for spiritual awareness. Next time around. Next time there's a hailstorm and I encounter depression, despair, betrayal, a spiritual response is built and ready in the brain. We are more able to bring to life's challenges a spiritual way of knowing. We are more prepared to bring an awakened perception to life's disappointments and hardships.
- [11:23]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
The way you talk about spirituality right now, it sounds like a response, a way of responding to stressed trauma and pain. How would you define what being spiritual means and looks like as a whole, as opposed to just that response?
- [11:40]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Through the lens of science? Spirituality is an inborn perception, but it is 1/3 inborn, 2/3 incoming upon us to cultivate from the lens of science. Spirituality is an inborn seat of awareness through which we perceive that we are loved, we are guided, and we are never alone. And for each of those core components of spiritual awareness, there's a circuit in the brain. We are loved and held is the bonding network. Same bonding Network through which, as young children, we felt loved and held by our parents or grandparents, we are guided. There's a shift from. From a very narrow. I've gotta have it dorsal to a bottom, up, ventral, big, wide lens. Attention network. Never alone. The parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries that lets us know we're alone and distinct and unique. And at every instant, also part of this great unit of reality, the family of life. Loved, held, guided, never alone is the deep, natural spiritual perception built into every single one of our brains. It's now up to us to awaken our brain and bear witness to the actual love, guidance and presence that's written into life. The divinity written into life. Who I call God, but everyone has their sacred name, Jesus, Hashem, Allah, the universe. The most interesting finding in science, I think, is that just as the brain is wired to perceive we are loved, held, guided and never alone, we are built to perceive something real, which is the nature of life. Shows up to be loving, holding, guiding, and never leave us alone. It's simply up to us then, to strengthen our perception. Every day of our lives, we have the opportunity to be in a deep dialogue with the divinity in life. But we have to build the muscle of spiritual awareness. We have to awaken our brain.
- [13:38]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What about someone who says, I don't have time for spirituality, I don't really need it, I'm fine, I. What are they missing out on?
- [13:46]
Dr. Lisa Miller
On the one hand, spirituality is protective against some of the most prevalent forms of suffering right now. Depression, addiction, even suicide. But even if it were not for its mental health benefits, spirituality in and of itself opens the double door to an entirely different journey through life. If you want to roll out the red carpet in your life, deepen your seat of spiritual awareness, awaken your brain. And suddenly we move from a very narrow understanding of who am I, how well have I done? Do I have enough money? Am I well known enough? All the sort of markers of outwardness to a profound dialogue with life. Not what do I want and how am I going to get it? Which I call achieving awareness. We are liberated from achieving awareness. And we can then start to ask, hey, what is life showing me now? What is the universe revealing to me now? Life becomes less of a shopping list and less of a hallway of trophies. And instead, life becomes a very awesome, surprising adventure. We don't get the life we want. That would be way too small a life. We get the life if we're an open system awakened, that is far greater, a much bigger life. We get an inspired Life.
- [15:06]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
And I think that's what's hard for people, because the hallway of trophies or the grocery list feels tangible. And you know what that means. And so it's within our control. And when something's within our control, we feel more directed towards it. Whereas when we hear about a quest or a journey or inspiration, it feels so vague that you're like, well, what does that even mean?
- [15:28]
Dr. Lisa Miller
May we do a practice?
- [15:29]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Of course.
- [15:30]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Okay. Lovely. This is a practice that honors exactly, Jay, what you just said. The difference between our laundry list, our grocery list, our trophy haul, and instead, what really is the road of life. Okay, good. 90 seconds.
- [15:46]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Okay.
- [15:46]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I invite you to take two breaths and clear out your inner space. I invite you to think of a time where you wanted something so badly that red door was yours. It was him or her or them to say yes. It was that job, that school, that home. So you did everything right, Planned it. A plus, B plus C, researched it, ready to close the deal. You reach for your red door, but it's stuck. And you can't believe it's stuck because you've done everything right. A plus, B plus. C. You might kick the door, be angry or even depressed, but because the red door is stuck, you shift 20, 40, 110 degrees. Over there. Over there is a wide open, splendid yellow door. You might have never heard of yellow doors, didn't know they exist. On the other side of the open yellow door is a landscape you had yet to imagine. Someone who makes you feel alive. A job where your boss sees you in a way you didn't even know you were capable. A community where you finally belong. The yellow door was not what you had wanted. It was better. Far better. The yellow door was far better and better for you. So now as you sit back and you think, wow, stuck red door, hairpin turned. Taking me to that surprising wide open yellow door that has everything to do with who you are and where you are today. Was there anyone there at that hairpin turn? A trail angel pointing you to the yellow door? It could have been a counselor, a therapist. It could have been someone you met for two minutes at the coffee shop, or a story from a friend or grandparent. The trail angel pointing you to the open yellow door. And finally, sitting way back, stuck red door, hairpin turn, trail angel, wide open yellow door that has so much to do with who you are. How really are the most important parts of our lives found? Sure, we have to do our part and plan and try, but is it really through radical control that our lives are formed or Are we less makers of our path and more discoverers of our journey? Where in your road of life is your higher power, God, the force? Is your higher power in the wide open yellow door? And the stuck red door is your higher power in the trail angel, and your ability to be an open system in dialogue with the deepest force of life through which we are guided and loved. Is it possible you've already been on a spiritual journey, a great adventure,
- [19:02]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
and
- [19:02]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I invite you back. Did you relate?
- [19:10]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Absolutely. So many times.
- [19:14]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Was there a red door and a yellow door you might choose?
- [19:16]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Absolutely. For sure. I pictured a particular moment in my life, but I could have pinned it to so many that I felt a red door not open and a yellow door open that was far better than the red door I ever imagined. And the yellow door was one that I would never have ever have come up with, even if I tried my hardest, if I tried to come up with it myself. And there was definitely a spiritual mentor guiding me towards the opening of other doors that I may not have thought of. And so every single part of what you said, I could very, very clearly visualize it. Absolutely. And so what you're saying, or what I. What I'm gathering from that for our audience, who hopefully did it as well, is that if you actually reflect upon your life, you notice that you've already lived the adventure, and so the adventure's already been alive for you. And if you can notice that and remember it, then you can recognize that this next red door that you are now stuck on, to have a spiritual experience of it and look for that yellow door is going to be a healthier, more powerful way to live that
- [20:28]
Dr. Lisa Miller
disappointment of the stuck red door. Kicking the red door is actually the beginning of your discovery of the yellow door. So the next time there's a very disappointing, depressing, shut red door, you're invited to ask, hey, I wonder where I might see the yellow door. Eyes wide open. We're already on a great spiritual adventure. When we choose to listen to trail angels, when we pay attention to synchronicity, when we listen to the whisper of the voice of God in our heart, in our prayer life, or in our meditation life, then we have a choice to participate in this sacred adventure. Jay, many people say to me, you know, I see synchronicities, but I don't know if they're real. I see trail angels, but I don't really know what it means. What do I do with that? Well, when we pay attention to synchronicity and say, way, wait a minute, you know, I was just thinking of Jay, and then I got this wonderful invitation to join him on the podcast. I was just reading Jay's book, and now I met someone who's also reading Jay's book. When we noticed that confluence in our lives that are synchronicities and say, hey, wait a minute, that's real. We authorize ourselves as knowers, as spiritual knowers. We awaken and say that synchronicity is real. Let me reflect point two, on what this might mean right here, right now, in terms of what I was just thinking, what I was just doing. Three, let me act on this synchronicity, right? Authorize ourselves, reflect and act. Once we act, gee, we are participating in the miracle. We are contributors in our road of life. The spiritual adventure heats up. It is that much more splendid when we say yes to the yellow door. I'm going to cross into it. I don't hope for people that they get their red door. I hope for people that we get our yellow door. But we do have to say yes to the guidance. Thank you, trail angel. Wow. I'll go somewhere I've never gone before. I'll cross the threshold of that yellow door, and what's on the other side is not what I wanted. It is so much better. It is someone who loves me in a way I didn't know I could be loved. It is a school that's more right for me. Not my first choice, not my fifth choice. It was the perfect choice. Or it's a mentor, a guide who saw a possibility I didn't see in myself.
- [22:59]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
If someone's listening right now and they're feeling completely lost and stuck and out of touch with that spiritual self, where would you suggest they start?
- [23:08]
Dr. Lisa Miller
The whisper of a hunch that's already in you, telling you say yes to the trail angel that you intuit that that red door stuck for a reason. Hey, what if you really take seriously your deep inner wisdom, that little whisper of a hunch? What if you really take seriously that synchronicity? You know, many people will say, you know, I thought that that synchronicity was real and my boyfriend told me I was crazy. Or I thought that this spiritual voice I was hearing was real and people told me I was nuts. But you know what? What if instead, you just for one moment honor the wisdom that is born inside of you, that you are a splendid spiritual being already built to see and know and be touched by God's presence. You're ready to go. Once we authorize ourselves as spiritual knowers, then the red carpet rolls out before us because we then are in dialogue with a loving, guiding universe. We then are being guided. And that's an entirely different life. That's a spiritual adventure.
- [24:12]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Can you tell me about how having a spiritual life positively affects our mental health?
- [24:17]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes. Well, a spiritual life says, no matter what comes to me, whether it's what I wanted or didn't want, it could be my partner betrays me. It could be I didn't succeed at work as I had intended. It could be that my best friend has gotten busy and doesn't have time for me. The disappointments. Or they could be more serious traumas fall in all of our lives. But our ability to then say, okay, even in my darkest hour, I know that I'm not falling through an abyss. I'm not falling through a black hole. There's a buoyancy. I'm caught. Well, who caught us? That's the universe. That's God. Who caught you? Even in our darkest hour, I don't know if I should go left, right, or center. You don't need to know. Hand it over. You don't need to make life's biggest decisions. Hand them over to the deep force of life and your direction is revealed. But you do have to make a choice. And the choice is to pay attention, authorize your knowing, and then act.
- [25:14]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What do you mean by hand it over? Because I feel. Does that mean I do nothing? Does that mean I?
- [25:20]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Very good point. So every one of us is born with two forms of knowing. Achieving awareness, which is tactics, strategy, how to close the deal, and awaken awareness through which we perceive life's guidance, the deeper direction in love, in life. We need both. We can set our North Star through an awakened understanding. Ah, the synchronicity is guiding me to come and follow the path to the right. But how do I turn right? Well, I need tactics and strategy. Any gift from God, a vision of who I'm to become. I'm a healer. I'm someone who's going to serve. I'm someone who's going to take care of children. I'm someone who wants to invent and create, then needs to be executed. Achieving awareness is how we lay down our contributions. Awaken awareness is how we find our direction. Achieving awareness allows us to implement, to really make a difference. Spirituality has two directions. One is the vertical, through which we experience inspiration, guidance, and love. The other is the horizontal, through which we lay down and contribute. Love and guidance. Inspiration comes often through awakening. Contribution takes tactics, takes strategy. Children of the light need wonderful sets of skills.
- [26:36]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I love that approach. I'm so glad you said we needed both.
- [26:48]
Jay Shetty
I've been thinking a lot about how the spaces around us affect how we feel, and for the longest time, my outdoor space just wasn't somewhere I wanted to be. It kind of became this place I'd walk past instead of sitting in. The seating wasn't that comfortable.
- [27:01]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
The setup felt a bit off, and
- [27:02]
Jay Shetty
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- [27:12]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
the vibe I had in mind.
- [27:13]
Jay Shetty
I could filter everything, read real reviews, and feel confident about what I was
- [27:17]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
choosing instead of second guessing it.
- [27:19]
Jay Shetty
Now it's completely different. I actually look forward to being out there, having my morning tea, slowing down in the evening, catching up with friends. It finally feels like an extension of my space, not an afterthought. If you've been meaning to create a space that feels more like you, this
- [27:33]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
is a really good place to start.
- [27:35]
Jay Shetty
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- [27:47]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
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- [27:52]
Jay Shetty
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- [28:40]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Connecting changes everything. AT&T.
- [28:43]
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- [29:52]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I've always felt that sometimes spirituality and religion have both had this bad misconception where people see it as a crutch because it's like, oh, yeah, well, I'm just going to hand everything over to the universe and I'm not going to do anything about it. And that almost feels spiritual. It sounds detached, but actually it isn't. It's almost irresponsible.
- [30:11]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Well, how we treat one another is a spiritual choice, right? Just as we're loved and guided by source, by the universe, we can choose to be loving and guiding to one another. Both are forms of an awakened relationship. An awakened relationship to behold God and a relationship to behold God in you. If I see you, my brother, as an expression, like a ray from the same son of God, the universe, then our relationship becomes an awakened relationship. We can have an awakened relationship with God. We can have an awakened relationship to one another. It's very easy to stay on the mountaintop where it feels whole and glorious and bright. But Jay, what you've done in choosing to come down the mountain and be whole and bright here on earth, towards fellow living beings is itself a profound act of awakened spirituality.
- [31:09]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Well, I mean, for me, I'd actually say that it was. I was fortunate because I gained more conviction in the teachings that I learned during my time as a monk in the real world, because putting them into practice was far more the real test and the real exam. It's almost like I learned all of these things in school. And then when I came to the real world and actually had to apply them and I saw them work, it only gave me more faith and conviction that what I'd learned was valuable and deep and profound. Whereas if you only ever use them in the training ground, you don't ever get to see how powerful they are, if that makes sense.
- [31:47]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Relational spirituality. So will you tell a story or an example. Was there a moment where you saw karma happen or.
- [31:53]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
One of my favorite statements from the Vedic traditions is that when you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you. And I remember reading and studying that for a while, and I. And I was always trying to dissect the statement to understand what it meant. And I was always fascinated by the word protect, because I think in the Western world, we always talk about living our purpose or finding our purpose or discover your purpose. And here, the ancient Eastern wisdom was saying, protect your purpose, which means you already have it, right? You protect what you have. You don't protect something you don't own. So this idea that you already had a purpose and your job was to protect it, I started to notice all the ways in which I wasn't protecting my purpose. And when I was in the world of work, I saw that in the world of work, they were trying to get us to be a certain way. But there was a part of me, inside me that was like, but that's not who you are. Like, this is who you are. This is your talent. This is your gift. This is your skill. This is your values. Be that. And that inner voice of knowing that, that soft choir voice that was like, no, don't just become, you know, the. What do you call it? Don't just become the robot version of yourself. Focus on becoming the true version of yourself. And that took a lot of courage and stress because everyone around you is doing the same thing and you're pulling away. But I saw that as protecting my purpose. And having lived that and now living my purpose fully, I saw that if I didn't protect it at that time, I would have just given it away and foregone my purpose.
- [33:24]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Is that purpose built into you? Is that a divine purpose?
- [33:28]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I believe so. I believe so because I didn't come up with it one day. It didn't. You know, it wasn't something that I sat down and figured out. It was something that was revealed. And I think a lot of what I've pursued in my life has been revealed through interconnection. Not there. There are. There are. Yeah, there are strategic elements of the vehicle through which it's disseminated. So, for example, the podcast.
- [33:54]
Jay Shetty
I felt excited about doing a podcast,
- [33:56]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
but I also saw that a podcast was a great way of connecting with people and having amazing conversations like this one. And so becomes the achieved awareness, as you called it, the strategic part. But the desire to want to spread wisdom, that was not strategic at all. That was an inner calling. I didn't come up with that like that. It wasn't my intelligence that went, yeah, that's what I meant to do. It was revealed, if that makes sense.
- [34:21]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Profoundly. And we all have our spiritual calling. You know, as you put so beautifully, you are a natural communicator. We all have our gifts, and we also have our areas that are not gifts. And in balance, that is not a win and a lose. Those are both wins. Because both our strengths and our not strengths allow us to discern our true calling. Where as a child of infinite worth, as a soul on earth, as a being of God of infinite worth, how do I discern my calling?
- [34:54]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
How?
- [34:55]
Dr. Lisa Miller
And I think what you've said so beautifully, our calling is revealed. There's a deep inner wisdom when we listen to the whisper of the hunch inside of us. There is a purpose to us, much greater than our traits, than our successes, than our outwardness. Their soul has a purpose.
- [35:13]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
How do we become better listeners to that inner guidance? Because I feel that the more we ignore it, the quieter it gets. And a lot of us for many years have had to ignore it, whether it was because of parent expectations or outward forces or just the busyness of life. And all of a sudden, you're now 30 years old, 40 years old, 50 years old, and you're thinking, I don't even know what I'm meant to do. Like they're talking about revealing and finding, but I don't have a clue. What do we do? How do we listen better?
- [35:43]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Maybe we do another practice, please.
- [35:44]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I'd love to.
- [35:44]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I love these things. Beautiful. This is a practice. I always thank my teacher from the late Dr. Gary Weaver. I invite you again, 90 seconds to take two breaths, clear out your inner space. I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. And to your table you may invite anyone, living or deceased, who truly has your best interest in mind. Anybody, living or deceased, who truly has your best interest in mind. And with them all sitting there, ask them if they love you. Ask them if they love you. And now you may invite your higher self, the part of you that is so much more than anything you may have done or not done, anything you have or don't have, your true, eternal, higher self. And ask you if you love you. Ask you if you love you. And now, finally, you may invite your higher power, whatever your word, however you know your higher power. And ask if they love you. Ask if they love you. And now with all of those people sitting here right now, what do they need to share? What do they need to tell you now, what do you need to know? What do they say to you now? When you're ready, I invite you back. How did you experience that?
- [38:23]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
It was really clear who I picked at the table. That was easy. And then who was there? My spiritual teacher and his spiritual teacher who passed away, who I never met. So those are the two people I chose. So my spiritual teacher's still alive. And then his teacher, who I never met, but they were both at the table. And I definitely feel loved by them. Like, that's not even a. It's not. It's like beyond. I feel overflowing, overwhelmed with the amount of love I feel from both of them. And then when you asked me the question of do I love myself, I felt very grateful that I have the ability to do that. And then when you asked me about what I need to hear from them and felt very clear to me that, I mean, for me it was, you know, to continue doing what I'm doing, to. To be. Continue to be a vessel and an instrument for this wisdom and work that I'm doing and to know that I'm always protected. And so it was very clear. And I'm so excited to hear what my audience gained from their reflection from that, because I feel what you gave us there was a really, really beautiful way of listening, which feels like no matter whether you consider yourself spiritual or not, you'd be able to connect to that because the idea of having dinner or being at a table with people you know and love and love you is something that feels very real. I love that as an exercise for people to listen more deeply. That's really brilliant. It's so beautiful. From your teacher as well, a gift
- [40:00]
Dr. Lisa Miller
from the late Dr. Gary Weaver. Yeah.
- [40:02]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What an incredible meditation. And I really want you all who are listening and watching at home to share with me your reflections as I'm sharing mine through these meditations. Because it's. Yeah, I'm really excited to hear what, what people gain from them. And, and I'm assuming that this exercise can be done at any time when people are feeling disconnected from their inner voice.
- [40:25]
Dr. Lisa Miller
At any time, if we have a big decision to make or if we're feeling despairing and alone, we can call. Council counsel is always present and ready to convene. Those who truly have your best interest in mind, living or deceased, will always show up. And who shows up may change depending on where we are in the road of life, what guidance we might need. For example, my youngest child is an adventurer. She ran a 200 mile ultra marathon she walked across Japan. Who watches over her is her great grandfather, my grandfather Bill, himself an outdoorsman. He would likely show up at her council. But my other child, who's 23 and living in New York and making movies, who would show up at her is probably her artistic great grandmother who herself loved language and story. So we're loved by all of our ancestors, but we do have guides. We do have profoundly present sacred guides, living and deceased. These are spiritual relationships. And Jay, it's so interesting as we look through the lens of science, the same way that a connection to God protects us against depression, a relationship to our ancestors protects us against depression.
- [41:42]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Wow.
- [41:43]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Every single person at the table who loves us, who guides us, who protects us, is a real relationship. And when we awaken to the true sacred relationships surrounding us, we are guided into a far greater spiritual adventure. And we are less depressed and addicted because the bumps in the road, those are absolutely essential for the deeper path that each of us journeys.
- [42:11]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I love that. I'm so glad we did that. Thank you for sharing that with me. I was thinking about it from the scientific perspective. You've done, you've done brain scans where people recalled profound spiritual experiences. Could you give us some examples of those? And what did you see happening in the brain, Jay?
- [42:28]
Dr. Lisa Miller
We asked people of all different faith traditions. So some people were Christian, others were Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, spiritual, but not religious. And no matter what tradition someone may observe or not observe, spiritual but not religious. The same neural circuits run in our brain when we encounter God, the deep force of life. We asked people a very simple question. No one was confused by the question we asked people. Gen Z, really? We asked, tell us about a time where you were really struggling in life where you felt disconnected or frustrated or lost, or you felt not enough that you'd failed or were somehow unworthy, you felt like a loser. Nobody was confused by that question. And then part two we said, and in your struggle you turned to God, you walked through nature, you meditated or prayed, or suddenly, perhaps even unsolicited, you felt touched by sacred presence and the road of life took a turn. Tell us about a time that started out difficult, but through the inspiration and guidance of God took a different turn. We've asked this question of hundreds of young adults. No one's ever been confused, but about half say, wow, I'm so glad you asked, but because no one's ever asked me that before, a spiritually non conversant society is silencing our whole rising generation of Gen Z. They are exquisitely gifted and they are not being listened to. We welcome people into the MRI machine. They tell the story that they've told so many times about being touched by their higher presence. They tell the story that they'd previously shared with us about being touched by the higher presence. And we then play back their own story and their own voice in their ears inside the MRI machine. And what we saw was extraordinary. As we walk through a spiritual experience, the same neural correlates come online in every single person. It doesn't matter if I'm Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Catholic, spiritual but not religious. Nature is my cathedral. The same neural correlates run, and they are the bonding network. We perceive that suddenly at that inflection point where we feel God's presence, we are loved and held. The bonding network comes up online. Suddenly, at the inflection point, we know that we are guided. And suddenly the parietal starts putting in and out hard boundaries, letting us know that we are never alone, loved and guided, never alone. Every single one of us is able to perceive that we are loved, held, guided and never alone. What do these stories sound like? You know, I just got turned down at seven out of eight colleges. I'm feeling like such a loser. I'm never gonna go to college like my parents and my grandparents wanted me to. And I'm walking down the street feeling completely unworthy. I really wanted to be a nurse. I'm not getting into Nursing School. 8 out of 9 rejections. Nursing school may not be in the cards for me, but then I see light in the leaves, and I know I will be a healer in the way that God has intended for me. The profound rearrangement of meaning, the aha, the awakening, the illumination that speaks to a deeper, wiser part of ourselves. Or I was going to get married. I dated a boy for three years in college. I even had a promise ring. We were going to get married the year after we graduated. And then the week before graduation, he called it off. I've never felt so unloved and unlovable. I felt so unattractive, so undesirable. But then I went home. And sitting in the pews of my childhood house of worship by my parents and by my grandparents, I suddenly felt my family's love. And then I felt a greater love. I felt God's love. And I knew, yes, I will love again. Jay so many young people stop at the pain. So many of us, and can happen to any of us stop at the pain. But the pain is actually an invitation. It's a banging at the door to Listen for the illumination. And the brain is built just like a catch in the catcher's mitt, sure as day, to receive the guidance, to catch the illumination.
- [46:55]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
The Bhagavad Gita, which is the text of India, the primary spiritual text of India, it's based on a battlefield. It's a historic story about the best archer in the world who's on a battlefield and he's having to fight his family, which he's really sad about, doesn't want to, and he's actually feeling anxious. And that's the beginning of his awakening conversation with God called Krishna, who's his charioteer, who's actually directing and driving his chariot on the battlefield. And they have this divine conversation that lasts these 700 verses of the Bhagavad Gita, 45 minute conversation. And it's all about learning. But it all starts like anxiety is the beginning of inquiry. And what I find fascinating about that, having studied it for many years, is that we live in a world where we think of anxiety and these things as bad, where we've got to suppress them or push them away or never have them again. When in fact, it's almost like life is designed in a way to get them to ask the right questions. And we almost, because sometimes it's so painful, we don't know how to rise to a deeper question because it feels so hard. So talk to me about that and reflect on that for me. And how do we do that, Jay?
- [48:12]
Dr. Lisa Miller
And in that way, yes, depression is the opening to transcendence. Depression does not make us smaller when we say, yes, what is life showing me now? What questions come to my heart that I wouldn't have asked otherwise? Why am I feeling so anxious? What do I fear losing? Why does it hurt so badly? Did I maybe, you know, there's a blind spot, just like we have a blind spot in our car between the person that I want to be and think I am and the person that I may actually be living out. And that blind spot is the zone for growth. That's our opportunity. When there's a big blind spot, suffering is an invitation to help narrow the blind spot. How can I be more loving or maybe need to be more autonomous? Whatever the welcome gift is, the blind spot is not a moral failing. It's an invitation for growth and spiritual growth. Well, the same is true in our relationship to God or the higher power. There's a blind spot between the sense of the world as we know it and the profound and sacred world as it really is. Suffering is an invitation to narrow the blind spot and move more evermore into a world that is one in which we see God's guidance, know each other from a spiritual, you are my brother, you are my sister. It doesn't matter if you happen to have similar, different views politically or about anything else for that matter, you're my brother. The last thing I'd want to do is limit our lives to other people's ideas, when in fact we have an ultimate opportunity for an authentic, direct spiritual relationship with every single person around us.
- [49:57]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Do you believe everything happens for a reason?
- [50:00]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I believe that we can shift from asking, why is this happening to me? To how is this happening for me? So despite its origin, every moment is an opportunity for profound spiritual awakening. We can bring a spiritual lens and say, ah, I can feel God's presence even now in this moment of trauma and quaking. I do not fall through the abyss. God is holding me. I can bring my deep perception of the guidance written into life and say, I've never encountered this before. You know, my father just died. I don't know how to live in this world without my father. But wait a minute. My father can be a conduit to God the father, God the mother, and start to evermore, see the guidance written into life. So when we have and it's a choice, a spiritual response to whatever comes, we can ask the question, how is this happening for me?
- [51:00]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
And that's a great way of checking in with our intuition as well, and
- [51:03]
Dr. Lisa Miller
listening to our intuition, that little whisper of a hunch. You know, Jay, there are regions in the brain for intuition. There are regions in the brain for mystical awareness. These are valid, hardwired forms of knowing. When we ignore this surefire knowledge, it's to our peril and those around us. We're being given guidance, and certainly we're being pointed. Life's pointing us to the double door for a much more interesting life. So, you know, it's worth asking, hey, wait a minute. What was the most important decision that you ever made in your life? Was it about your family? Was it about your business? Was it a moral decision? What was the most important decision that you ever made in your life? And was that made narrowly from adding up the pros and cons and making a long list of the 18 points? Or did you turn to a deeper form of knowing? Intuition, inspiration and mystical awareness? Being touched in meditation or prayer life? Was there an awakened knowing that guided your most important decision?
- [52:10]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
And how do you know the difference? How do you know if you're listening to your gut or your fear.
- [52:14]
Dr. Lisa Miller
The more we pay attention to our awakened awareness, the more we become pitch perfect. So at first it might feel a little rusty or a little awkward, but the more we say, yes, that guidance feels real, I'm going to act on it. And then, sure enough, the proof is in the pudding. When we do act on synchronicity, a hunch, a mystical awareness who should come around the corner. But the answer to our quandary, there is no difference between internal awareness and external unfolding. Consciousness is in us, through us, and around us. When we listen to the guidance so called internally, we are on the path to the answers to our quandaries. Externally.
- [52:56]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
You've used God quite often in our conversation today. Yes.
- [53:00]
Dr. Lisa Miller
My word is God.
- [53:01]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Yes. And I wanted to ask you, do you have to believe in God to be spiritual?
- [53:07]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I think to be spiritual, we only need to listen to how the deepest force in life touches and guides us. What you call that deepest force in life and how you fashion that conceptually is very secondary. It's way downstream from the foundational catch in the catcher's mitt of perception, of awareness, of the loving guidance. To be spiritual is to pay attention to the love and guidance that's already there. And in fact, many people say, you know, actually, the most important decision of my life that I did make through my intuition, somehow I just knew in my heart that we should move or not move, that we should have a child or not have a child. I just knew in my heart. Listening to our awakened awareness brings an entirely different life. When we listen to that whisper of a hunch, when we pay attention to synchronicities, listening to our awakened awareness brings forward another life. Why? Because consciousness is in us, through us and around us. Awakened awareness allows us to hear the guidance that has everything to do with the on the ground, real physical reality that we're about to encounter. Whether that's a premonition or guidance to find the people in our lives, we in our own family. Jay, we struggled. My husband and I struggled for five years looking for our child. We could not find our child. And it was profoundly depressing to me. And my husband was so depressed, I found him on the floor one night. He was shaking. My big, strong husband was literally crying and shaking because no children had come into our lives. I went to every top fertility doctor in the country. I went to the team that had the highest rates of conception. I went to the team up and down the east coast that invented in vitro. And yet nobody came. And it was only once I started paying Attention to the synchronicities and the guidance, the unprobabilistic events in my life, and then started having mystical experiences to which I said, yes, this is real information. That we followed the golden thread and found our child on the other side of the earth, a beautiful boy who was, of course, our spiritual child. Now, if I just took spirituality as a nice feeling or something that happens inside of me or as a way of coping, it would have nothing to say about an action plan in the world. But spirituality is highly practical, actionable guidance through which we can fulfill our deepest calling, our true path, and support the calling of those around us. My son would still be in an orphanage if I didn't think synchronicity. My husband and I would not be parents if I didn't think synchronicities were real. Spirituality is not just a nice thing or icing on the cake. It is the bedrock. It is the only landscape through which we can live our lives in a whole and radiant way.
- [56:16]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
And that's also you accepting that yellow door, even in that scenario.
- [56:21]
Dr. Lisa Miller
The glorious yellow door.
- [56:22]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
The glorious yellow door. Because spirituality doesn't mean everything you want. And like you talked about earlier with the grocery list, spirituality doesn't mean that it happens how I want it to happen when it happens. Like, that's not spirituality.
- [56:35]
Dr. Lisa Miller
No, it's not a transaction.
- [56:36]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Which I think is so much of the misconception of not only how spirituality is spoken about today, but people's belief that if I'm spiritual, well, that's the
- [56:46]
Dr. Lisa Miller
ego driving the bus. Right. If I think that because I'm spiritual, I'm going to get pregnant right away if I think that because I'm spiritual, my hopes and dreams are going to all come true. That's actually putting myself in the driver's seat and saying, me and me alone. I know the way. But spirituality actually is the ability to look and see what the universe is saying and then act. I mean, we don't sit home eating ice cream and do nothing. Spirituality allows us to see where the universe is guiding us and then do something about it. Paying attention to synchronicity and then acting allows us to be part of the miracle. Listening to a mystical experience, knowing that a visitation is real. And then acting allows us to collaborate in the miracle, allows us to be actors in a divine journey.
- [57:46]
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Jay Shetty
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Jay Shetty
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- [60:38]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
So let's talk about two practical things. Because you said spirituality is actually practical. Very practical. I want to talk about two areas of our life that I think a lot of our audience struggles with or is looking for. And so let's start with love first of all, so much of our audience is looking for love. People are exhausted. We're dating right now. People are struggling with there's plenty of fish in the sea. There's just ultimate unlimited options. How can becoming more spiritual help you find love?
- [61:06]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Oh, Jay. Many people say I listened to this gut instinct. I'd never been to that bar before. I'd never been since. But I just felt like somehow I should go, you know, My friend was lonely. She asked me to meet her, and it was the right thing to do, and I went. And sure enough, that night, I met the guy who I eventually married. And he never went to that bar either. Far too unprobabilistic to have happened by chance or. You know what? I've always been kind of sheepish about those platforms. I didn't know if I'd go on, but I finally did. And do you know what? My husband never wanted to use those platforms either, but he did, and we found each other. These unprobabilistic meetings, these guided, inspired, really meant to be guided. Inspired meetings, are extraordinary for igniting love, are extraordinary for guiding us against all odds to find each other in a big universe through all space and time. But then that's only part one, that love is divinely guided. Part two is that we then need to put divinity into the relationship. It is a big roll up the sleeves and do our job. Love someone even when they're difficult. Love someone more deeply when they are at their most irascible and struggling. No. Is there something I'm doing right now in the relationship that's starving the relationship? I'll give you an example. You know, let's start at home. I remember my husband and I went through a good. You know, it wasn't just three days, maybe three weeks, pushing a month of standoffishness, you know, not arguing, just distance. And I was thinking, you know, why does it feel so empty, so stale in here? Why is there a latent tension in the air? You know? And, you know, we'd even sort of find a way to not eat dinner at the same time together, you know, and he'd eat his special meal, and I'd eat my special meal. I had a sense, Jay, that somehow I didn't know the way back to him, and he didn't know the way back to me. So I effectively took our standoff to counsel. I asked my higher power, and for me, the word is God. I prayed to God and I said, there is this standoff. Please fill my heart with love. Might you show me how we can Find our way back to each other. God. And what came Jay was an image of my husband looking nourished and ruddy and fully fed. And I realized I had been starving him for my end. I had been starving him emotionally. I'd been so busy with my own thing, I'd been so unwilling to pick up the rope on whatever was dogging him. God gave me an image the universe presented before me, an image of possibility, of how I might more nourish my husband with love. We don't need to take our failings, our shortcomings, our blind spots as moral failure. Our struggles are an invitation to turn to life, turn to God, turn to our higher power, and say, might you fill my heart with love and show me an image of possibility? And the direction is indeed very surprising. It is a yellow door pointing us somewhere, an answer to the problem. Psychology has really gotten it wrong. Psychology says that if I'm feeling guilty about the standoff with my husband or if I'm feeling angry about the thin emotional connection right now we might be sharing, I should somehow come up with happier thoughts about myself or happier thoughts about us and our marriage. Much of cognitive therapy is a debate to feel better, bigger, stronger. But actually, just as when I touch a hot stove, I feel a heat that's real. Our emotions are exquisite detectors of the truth in our lives. We can take that truth, even if it's a little bitter to the taste, and hand that over to the force of life and say, with deep love, please, will you show me possibility? Might I ask for direction, source of life, who I call God? And the image that comes, or the synchronicity to unfold, or the unlikely turn of events is indeed the opening of the yellow door. It expands us and our perception to awaken and be more loving.
- [65:25]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What if you're spiritual and your partner isn't? Can it work?
- [65:30]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes. It is very important that spirituality not make us judgmental about the people around us. You know, I think very often I hear, I went on a retreat, or maybe I tried psilocybin, or I've been working on my meditation life, and my partner's just not spiritual enough anymore. I have surpassed him, right? The spiritual road is not one in which you dust people and leave them behind. It's one in which you go back and get them. Now, it may or may not be that your partner wants to pursue a spiritual life, but can you love them from a spiritual place in your heart? Could you be married to a spiritual civilian? And that's a question about the depth and Breadth of your own heart.
- [66:14]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Yeah. Does it make it harder? Because I feel like there's a lot of. Now what you hear a lot of is, oh, well, you know, if they're not spiritual, I can't be with them. If they don't go to therapy, I can't be with them. Because people are wanting people to have a certain level of emotional maturity or emotional intelligence that they hope comes with spirituality or going to therapy.
- [66:35]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes, I know many people feel that way. Most people feel that way, but that's actually not my view. My view is that can we love someone for who they are and where they are? Particularly if we've made a commitment as a family or if we've made some type of lifelong commitment. It doesn't say to death do us part doesn't mean until you have surpassed them in your growth. To death do us part means that this is not a contract. Marriage isn't a deal. It's a calling. Can you love someone for who they are in their journey? We don't need to marry our identical twin, and we don't need to make a lifelong commitment to an identical twin. In fact, life's much more interesting when we complement each other. My husband and I have been married and for 30 years, I've had one spouse, one house, and one job from which anything else is possible. When we get the bedrock of our lives set firm, then we can really erect a meaningful life together. We're not identical twins. My husband and I have different interests. We have different vocabularies. We probably have different maps of reality. But Jay, I absolutely adore him. And I know he loves me.
- [67:48]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Me.
- [67:48]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Not because he's just like me, really, but because he isn't.
- [67:54]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I can relate to that with me and my wife too.
- [67:56]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes.
- [67:56]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Yeah. Even though we both have a similar spiritual practice, the way we practice it is so different. And the way we live it in the world is so different. And the way we express it is so different. And I couldn't agree with you more that to me, when I was trained in spirituality, spirituality and non judgment are almost synonymous to me in how you practice it. Like you can't be spiritually enlightened or you can't be spiritual and be judgmental. Those two things just don't live together. And it's fascinating to me how when we start to become spiritual, how judgmental we can be, because it defeats the whole purpose of everything you're doing as. As a spiritual person. You're trying to become more compassionate to yourself and others, more loving to yourself. And others not passively, but expanding your radius of care and how much you can understand and comprehend. But so often it does exactly the opposite. I had a really good example of this. I invited. I don't know if you know who she is, but I invited Julia Fox onto my podcast. I'm not sure if you're aware of who she is, and if not, I can give you a bit of background. So Julia Fox is known as an actress and a model today. But her background is that she grew up in an abusive home, became a sex worker in her teens, then became a dominatrix, then left that world, became an actress, a model, and is now three years celibate, three years sober, and takes care of. She's a single mom to a young son. I'd read her book, and I was blown away by her transformation and saw it as truly spiritual and work that she's done on discovering herself and finding herself through all of these phases of life. And it's really interesting because before people had heard this version of her, I brought her out on stage at an event in New York at Madison Square Garden at the theater. And the audience was like, jay, why would you bring out Julia Fox? Like, there was this judgment. And I addressed it. Cause I could feel it. And I said, hey, just listen till the end of this conversation, and then you can decide how you feel. It's your choice, but stay with me. And we spoke. And then at the end of it, the amount of people that came up to me and said, gee, I'm so sorry. I judged at the beginning, but actually, I learned so much from her. And she's so smart and she's so eloquent, and she seems like such a wonderful person.
- [70:16]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Well. And from you, Jay, they learned love. They learned radical, true, unconditional love. And from her, Julia, they learned that the spirit is far greater than our struggles, the traps we may have been in in our past. Our spirit is infinite. And look how she said yes and listened to the guidance and saw the love. What an extraordinary teaching.
- [70:39]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Incredible.
- [70:40]
Dr. Lisa Miller
You know, it's so easy to say, okay, in my partnership, I'll give you an example. I share in the awakened brain that in the journey to find Isaiah, there were very. I'm very grateful for some very sacred mystical visitations. Now, I didn't say, oh, I've had mystical visitations, and, honey, you haven't. Therefore, I'm ahead on the path. No, I think the mystical visitation to one member of the partnership is to be shared by both. So if you happen to be perhaps More spiritually perceptive. If you happen to be on a more intense or palpable or vivid spiritual path, then you have the opportunity to bring that home and share that guidance, offer that love to the partnership. You know, the data shows that very often families are enriched and made spiritual by one lead partner. And someone else in the partnership is bringing something else. My kids mirrored that back to me. They said, you know, mommy's on a path and Mommy's so spiritual. But if it were just Mommy, we'd be living in a tent or something. But if it were just Daddy, it'd be way too strict. We think you're a good balance.
- [71:56]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
That's amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely. If someone's dating, how can they stop avoiding the voice inside of them that tells them this is the wrong person? Because I feel like we often justify someone is right for us because of the outward boxes that they tick or the fact that our family and friends think they're amazing. But inside of ourselves, we knew it. And then when they leave us, it feels like we were double dumped because we already knew it. But then they left us.
- [72:24]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Well, Jay, I think you're pointing to the importance of hearing the deep inner wisdom. Every one of us has a spiritual compass that always points to the truth. The more we listen and pay attention to the inner spiritual compass, the more we become pitch perfect in hearing the guidance. But if we're just a little rusty or we're getting our feet wet, we can always take the question to counsel. Take the question, is this guy right for me? To your counsel, Ask those who truly have your best interest in mind, your higher self and your higher power. Hey, what say you? Because counsel is there to answer any question, to bring guidance at any juncture in the road. And in fact, we can bring a problem to counsel. We can bring a person to counsel. Counsel is a place in our soul, in our neuro wiring, where we can return to receive an awakened response, to receive awakened guidance. Once we practice counsel, I suggest to people an invitation to try counsel every time, every day. I offer people the invitation to practice counsel every day. Because then we become accustomed to returning into the place of transcendent relationship. We become a little bit more nuanced in ability to hear guidance. And ultimately we become more aware of the guidance within ourselves, which is the voice of God, the universe.
- [73:54]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Let's shift to talk about money. Yes, because you just mentioned there that your kids said, hey, if we just said mom, we'd live in a tent. If we had dad, it'd be too strict. So it's a good balance. What is the practical connection between spirituality and money?
- [74:09]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Our spiritual perception allows us to walk our true path, our true calling. And when we do, there is abundance. It's not our preordained mail order vision of abundance. It is big. A abundance that comes in many forms. It comes in oftentimes meaningful relationships. It comes in a sense of fullness and sparkle in the world. It comes a fullness in our heart. And very often when we are on our authentic path, we find that the finances end up getting covered. I don't mean to preach a prosperity message where, oh, you'll get loads of money if you're spiritual. Spirituality is not a transaction. But spirituality will align us with our path through which the road rises up to meet us. And we very often do find that we're provided for.
- [74:59]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What mistakes do you think spiritual people make when it comes to money?
- [75:03]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I think the biggest mistake early in the spiritual path is to sequester our spiritual life as being separate from our work life. But in fact, how we show up at work is a spiritual endeavor. Even if we don't like the job, even if we may not in five years or 10 years be doing the same professional, the same profession we do now. When we show up with an authentic spiritual voice and say, you know what, I'm not going to make an immoral decision, even though my boss is leaning on me, I do think there is a purpose in the fact that this client right now has told me that his wife is dying. I feel in my heart love for the other side of the steel, and I don't want to exploit them or take advantage of them. When we bring our spiritual heart to work, we make more ethical decisions. And in the end, we make win win decisions. An awakened decision is a win win decision. It is far more sustainable and yes, more outwardly profitable in the long run. So the biggest mistake we can make is to leave our spiritual selves at home. And as a boss, the biggest mistake we can make further down the line in our careers is to silence the spiritual voice of people sitting at the work table.
- [76:20]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Absolutely. I have a lot of friends who'd consider themselves to be spiritual. Many of them are depressed and not financially secure. When you tell me that people are spiritual, are less depressed, and they should have an abundance opportunity, I don't always see that translate into reality. And I'm trying to understand where they're tripping up or going wrong.
- [76:44]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yeah, oftentimes I hear spirituality is in the ashram. Spirituality is in removing myself from commerce or the bank or the career that I've pursued for 25 years, I would say just the opposite. Spirituality is bringing your deepest wisdom and soulfulness into the bank, the profession of 20 years. When we separate ourselves out of the flow of life, we've taken ourselves out of the energy field. We've taken ourselves out of the majestic symphony that is the embodied spiritual reality. Society isn't unspiritual. Everyone's born spiritual. Society is the embodied spiritual reality. Now how much are we going to cultivate that reality and what are we going to bring to it? How are we going to show up? I think we end up depressed and poor when we isolate ourselves, when we sequester ourselves, and certainly when we feel holier than that.
- [77:42]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that approach because going back to the Gita, because Arjun's an archer, he's a warrior. He's told by God to do his duty, which is to protect and to fight. And that's quite a remarkable direction from God to be saying, you should fight rather than Arjun's actually saying, I think I should just go to the forest and meditate and I don't need this land and it doesn't matter. And God's like, no, you need to protect future generations and you need to be ahead of it and you're doing your duty. You were born a warrior and so. So carry out that duty.
- [78:15]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes. Were you born a warrior? Me?
- [78:18]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Probably a little bit. Yeah, I've got a bit of that for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [78:21]
Dr. Lisa Miller
And I relate to that too. Trying to make change within major institutions that is foundationally spiritual. You in the center of society. I've been doing this work in science and in academia and in the Pentagon. I think that when we work from a deep spiritual awareness, then we're actually part of a mission. And it can be at times a spiritual fight. It can be at times. Spirituality is highly embodied. Spirituality has everything to do about fighting the good fight, standing up for what's right. Spirituality has everything to do with building and creating something that is inherently good. So spirituality is not just the contemplative practice and it's not just being soft and gentle. There are times where righteous indignation affirm back, speaking up for what's true. Fighting to build something, to create a land that has spiritual values is a highly profound act of devotion. Spirituality is not something that's quiet and mousy. Spirituality is very often something that is active and strong and uncompromising.
- [79:27]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I think a lot of people right now, when they look at the world, they Think that there's nothing spiritual, obviously, about what's going on. How do you think about, oh, I
- [79:36]
Dr. Lisa Miller
think we're having birthing pains for an extraordinary collective awakening. I think that I'm tremendously full of empirically grounded hope. Just as each and every one of us moves through suffering to transcendence, that depression leads to transcendence awakening. I think as a society, we're on the brink of awakening to a far more spiritual, center field way of living and treating each other. We're on the brink of a much more spiritual society. What do you think?
- [80:06]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I think people ask better questions and get more committed to doing amazing work in the world when things are not going great. So I think that when we see pain in the world and we feel motivated to want to make a change and contribute, I see so many people who are getting more involved in charity work and getting more involved in philanthropy. I see so many people who are wanting to go out and make a difference. To me, that's spiritual, that sometimes the alarm clock gets louder and louder and louder to wake us up, because otherwise, if it's on snooze, we kind of get complacent. And so I, I always feel that anxiety and tragedy and it's, it's a, it's a painful reality. And I wish we didn't function that way. But humans almost wait for things to get really bad before we do something about it.
- [80:54]
Dr. Lisa Miller
And if you don't know what to do, you can, just as I shared in my marital challenge, hand it over, Seek direction from the source, meditate on it, pray, see what inspiration comes. If the old way of working isn't going to give us a good answer, then open up, perhaps to a spiritual direction. And I see to your point, Jay. A lot of people, yes, they keep their day job. Yes, they still show up, but they're showing up in a different way. And suddenly I just heard from a fellow who'd been a trader on Wall street for 20 years. He said, you know, I've had a spiritual awakening recently, and now I'm showing up on the trading floor in an entirely different way. And I notice the young guys are coming to me and they're asking for advice. Advice with their partners, advice with their bosses. There must be something that I'm giving off, some sort of peace, some sort of solidity, some type of enlightenment that welcomes others to seek guidance. So if everyone showed up at work that way, we'd have a different commercial system, we'd have a different society. When we each cross the bridge Then together we really are making a different type of awakened society.
- [82:08]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I think the challenge people genuinely feel is we're so exhausted from our lives and our days. We always think, oh yeah, when I have more energy, I'll do that. When I have a bit of peace, I'll do that.
- [82:19]
Dr. Lisa Miller
That.
- [82:19]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What do you think about that?
- [82:20]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I think that your spiritual life is the only path towards gaining energy and peace and direction. So even if I'm completely exhausted, every morning I force myself to walk out the door, go outside and open into my morning meditation and prayer. Now there are days where it is more profound than others. But if I miss a day, it becomes a very different type of day. If I miss practicing in the morning, the day unfolds very differently. I have to say, oop. At about noon, excuse me, step outside and even though it's noon or 1 o', clock, do my morning prayers. Morning prayer for me is an opening to connect in dialogue with the universe. If I miss it, then I'm working from a place of ego, of want. What do I want for me? What do I want for my family? If I go outside and start loving God, please open my heart and fill me with love that I might be present to you. You use your words. Today's a dialogue with the universe.
- [83:28]
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Jay Shetty
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Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
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- [85:59]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
You've said that children are born as pure souls.
- [86:03]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes.
- [86:03]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Do you think everyone is born good?
- [86:05]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Everyone's born a knower. We know this through the lens of science so we can look at twin studies and know that every single person is born with a natural capacity for spiritual awareness. And every single person through MRI studies we know is through MRI studies we know every single person is born with circuits in the brain for spiritual awareness. What does this look like in the child? Science shows us that unless socialized otherwise, a young child naturally perceives continuity of consciousness or spirit after death unless told, oh no, no, that's not real. A young child naturally perceives that. We can directly know. We don't need to have been told or read it or seen it. We can have direct access to consciousness. Science calls this implicit spiritual cognition. I say the child's born a knower. Now what happens in school is that the child says, oh, I know the answer to that. And the teacher says, what do you mean? Point on the page? Where does it say? Where did you read that? You need to cite and reference how you know that. And the child says, no, I just knew that. Exchange says to the child that direct knowing is somehow less real that the type of knowing that we raise as to which we give primacy. The type of knowing that we value here in school is one that comes from someone else. But actually the most important knowledge we have doesn't come from someone else. It is an original, authentic knowing within ourselves. That's how we know our own calling, our own purpose, our own direction. School has socialized us out of our natural spiritual awareness. School has foreclosed the direction and guidance that is built into life. The child comes in and knower. The child comes in listening and paying attention to their inner spiritual compass. And in school we learn, oh, no, no, that's not real. You need to have been told that by someone else.
- [88:01]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What can parents do to protect that?
- [88:04]
Dr. Lisa Miller
It's essential that parents protect their child's natural spiritual awareness. Parents can say, hey, you said you just knew that. That. How wonderful was that Direct knowing you just knew. Or a child might come to us as parents and say something like, you know, I felt grandma's presence. Even though she's dead, I really felt Grandma's presence. And you can say, wow, Grandma really loved you. It makes sense that she'd be watching over you. We don't need to have all the grand answers as parents, but to protect the child's natural spirituality, we need to authorize them, our children, as knowers. Wow. You had a dream that daddy and I were going to travel around the world, and today we told you that. Wow. You had a hunch that your sister was going to come home from school early, and then it happened. You had direct knowing. Wow. Honor and authorize your child's direct knowing because everyone else in society is telling them it isn't real. We have poisoned a generation with something that's called radical materialism. It says it's only real if you can touch it or kick it. But actually, there's a great deal of information in the unseen, and the child has access to that information by saying to the child, oh, no. That feeling you have in your gut instinct, that's just your intuition. No, no. Wow. That's the gift of your intuition. What? You made that up. You imagined it. No, no, no. Imagination. Like touching a hot stove. Images. What's true? You figured that out in your important imagination. Authorize, authorize, authorize.
- [89:50]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Well said. I really like that. How important is spirituality at home?
- [89:54]
Dr. Lisa Miller
From a scientific perspective, tremendously important. The child is born a naturally spiritual being, but this is one third of an endowment, 2/3 cultivated by parents and grandparents. It can be by a devoted, loving mentor, a member of a faith community. It could be by a coach or a counselor. But when we pair true, deep love, authentic love, with transparency, opening the window and sharing our own spiritual life, the child is embraced and their spiritual core is formed. As a parent. If I say we can do four things as a parent to strengthen our children's spirituality, the first is call it out. Use a language that speaks to synchronicity, mystical experiences. Talk about the spiritual reality and Give it a language through which the child gains a roadmap of a spiritual sacred reality. If we say it's real, it's real. 2. Invite your child into your own life. Share the stories of when I was 16 and I really didn't know if God existed. I was really depressed when you were born. I knew there was much more than just skin and bones to us. Speak authentically about your own journey from a spiritual perspective. The knowing, truthful knowing of your own heart. When you share your authentic spiritual story, the child knows that actually our life journey is a spiritual journey. The third thing we can do, very important, is to invite our children to share their own spiritual experiences. Say that our relationship, our family, goes down to that. That bedrock spiritual life is part of who we are. Whether it's God brought us together, the universe from across the world brought you to me, my beautiful spiritual child, or when daddy and mommy got married and we both brought our kids, we knew that God had made this full, abundant family talk about who we are as a family from the deepest spiritual perspective. And the fourth piece, all four are important. The fourth is non negotiable, which is is invite your child into a practice of transcendence. Whether it's prayer, loving God, open my heart. Now you finish the prayer. Do you want to sit by my side while we meditate? Through which you're invoking the sacred consciousness field. Like a little antenna, they're starting to pick it up. Share transcendent practice. When we as parents share transcendent practice, we allow our children the rest of their lives to get back to source. The brain is more of an antenna than a factory. We are born able to receive consciousness much more like an antenna than a factory that makes thoughts or makes spirituality. The child's little antenna, teach them how to raise it. Teach them that what comes through their antenna is real. And show them that you can always raise the antenna and feel the presence of love, feel the presence of guidance.
- [92:55]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I think that's so different from what I feel. A lot of people who grew up in a spiritual or religious home experience which was force, force of practice, force of belief, force of ritual without reason, force of turning up and showing up whether you cared or not.
- [93:12]
Dr. Lisa Miller
So now they don't like the whole thing.
- [93:13]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
They don't like any of it. Yeah, that rebounds.
- [93:16]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes. These are invitations.
- [93:18]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What's the difference between spirituality and religion?
- [93:22]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Well, as you probably know, for about 2/3 of people in the States, and it's pretty true across post industrial countries, spirituality and religion go hand in hand for about 2/3 of people and about 1/3 of people say, I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. Whether or not we're religious, we are all inborn spiritual beings. Religion is whether I'm Catholic or Hindu or Jewish is a gift of our parents and grandparents. Religion, the sacred text ceremony, is environmentally transmitted. Spirituality is innate. Now, Jay, I think in support of the child's own natural spirituality, we can, as parents take on a child centered point of view, listen to the child's spiritual experiences and say, wow. Offer in the first person, speaking for only myself, a spiritual voice. So for instance, I used to take hikes with my children in the forest when they were young. And when we came to a fork in the road, I always said, Robert Frost's poem, two roads diverge in a yellow wood, and sorry, I could not follow both and be one traveler long I stood. And of course, it's the road less traveled. It's about listening to your inner wisdom and making an authentic original choice. Years went by. I love that dozens of times Robert Frost was shared in the woods at the juncture where the road forked. And sure enough, years later, my children walking through the woods will approach a fork in the road and say, this is the point where mommy recites Robert Frost and cries. They're aware there's a choice. There's a choice in the road. Now, when I cry, I didn't cry because I thought it would be an effective way for them to remember the Robert Frostbaum. It was a genuine authenticity sense that the most important thing in life is to learn to make your own choices. They got the picture. When we're transparent, when we share what's really important to us on our own spiritual path, they know it's real. They get the picture. And then on their own terms, they can claim it.
- [95:27]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Because you weren't doing it to teach, you were just sharing it. Like there's such a difference. It's almost like we remember things when someone shares them as their inspiration versus when they say, you need to do this, you need to know. Like, I don't know if you turned around to your kids at that young age. It said, this is a lesson in how you like choices in the future. Like, yeah, it's like that doesn't work on anyone. Like, if you share something you love, I'll remember that. And you would for me too. But if I said, lisa, you have to live life like this and this is what you've got to remember, all of a sudden your defenses go up and you just switch off. Especially as a kid.
- [96:02]
Dr. Lisa Miller
JAY I was sharing the best thing I had, which was the joy of living in authentic, authentic, original life and not borrowing my life from the playbook or someone else's life.
- [96:13]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
LISA what does therapy do that spirituality can't? And what does spirituality do that therapy can't?
- [96:20]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Yes. So Jay for 30 years I've been working at the intersection of spirituality and psychotherapy and I've published over 200 articles on spirituality and mental health and recovery, many of which are in top peer reviewed journals. Spirituality is essential to recovery from depression and addiction. Spirituality is protective against depression and addiction. There's nothing in the clinical or social sciences as important to whole person formation as a strong spiritual core. So in my view, psychotherapy minus a spiritual core makes no sense. A spiritually informed therapy is one in which the patient is authorized to open to the guidance in the universe, to raise their antenna and ask the question, what is life showing me now? What is this suffering revealing to me now? Is there a blind spot where I'm being perhaps inconsiderate or selfish? Is there a blind spot where I have yet to take ownership or autonomy of my life? Is there a way in which I'm not listening to the universe? The universe is pounding louder and louder to your point, until I hear that type of reflection is a reflection brought forth by suffering. But it is not purely a psychological question. It is one in which we were asking to see beyond what we know. Awakened awareness has information that has yet to unfold before us. Achieving awareness draws on all the information in our own lives and everyone else's to date. It is inherently based on the past. But intuition, mystical experience and awakened knowing has information that has yet to unfold before us. The Yellow DOORS that's why spirituality is essential to mental health. Because what is suffering but a banging at the door to emerge beyond the person we've ever been before?
- [98:26]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
LISA I can't wait for people to read the Awakened Brain and to connect more with your work. Because sitting with you today and going through your exercises and hearing about your ability to pull from science and from spirituality, it's, it's such important work and it's, I'm so glad that you're such a good messenger of it because it feels like it's being hidden from us. It feels like it's not as accessible as it should be be. And you're bringing it out. So I'm so grateful for that.
- [98:55]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I'm so grateful for our conversation. And it's true. Every single person listening already is spiritual. This is Theirs. It's not only for the most pious or the most learned. No one owns this. You are spiritual, but it is your opportunity to awaken.
- [99:13]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Yeah. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence. Maximum. Maximum. And so, Lisa Miller, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
- [99:28]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Listen to your inner wisdom and bet against the pack.
- [99:33]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Nice. I agree. Question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
- [99:39]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Do as I say.
- [99:41]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Question number three. What's the first thing you do in the morning and the last thing you do at night?
- [99:45]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Every morning, I open the day through prayer that invites my heart to connect to God. And every day, I close the day by thanking God for the guidance, the love, and the miracle of the adventure that was the day before.
- [100:03]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
What do you pray to God for?
- [100:04]
Dr. Lisa Miller
I ask that I might align my heart with God's guidance and love and that day serve God in love. I don't know what it'll look like like, but I know if I'm in alignment.
- [100:15]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Fifth and final question, Lisa. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
- [100:25]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Every single person in your path was sent by Source. Treat them with an awakened heart.
- [100:31]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Dr. Lisa Miller. The book is called the Awakened Brain, the New Signs of Spirituality and Our Quest for an Inspired Life. Go and grab your copy right now.
- [100:40]
Dr. Lisa Miller
Now.
- [100:40]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
I hope you listen to this conversation many times. My favorite thing you could do is please take a moment to do the two practices we did together with yourself and then share it with a friend. Because I feel those simple practices that Lisa so beautifully guided me through could be the unlock that you're looking for. I've always found that you need these tipping points in your journey, and Lisa gave us so many beautiful ones. But those two exercises particularly, I think could be doorways and gateways into your spiritual life. If you've been struggling, if you felt like you've fallen off, if you're reconnecting whichever part of the journey you're on. So thank you so much, Lisa. Thank you for your time, your energy.
- [101:20]
Dr. Lisa Miller
It's wonderful to connect with you. You have a beautiful soul.
- [101:23]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Thank you. Very bright soul, very kind, truly. Thank you so much.
- [101:26]
Jay Shetty
If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel.
- [101:30]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
Amen.
- [101:31]
Jay Shetty
On how to change your life by changing your. Your brain.
- [101:34]
Interviewer (likely Jay Shetty)
They don't do things until someone's mad
- [101:36]
Dr. Lisa Miller
at them to get it done. They need stress in order to get stuff done, and that just makes everybody around them stressed.
- [101:48]
Jay Shetty
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Commercial Narrator
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- [103:04]
Jay Shetty
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- [103:45]
Dr. Lisa Miller
This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.