Esther Perel: The REAL Reason You’re Struggling to Find Love (Fix THIS to Build Chemistry in Real Life)

Summary

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Episode: Esther Perel: The REAL Reason You’re Struggling to Find Love (Fix THIS to Build Chemistry in Real Life)

Date: May 4, 2026
Host: Jay Shetty (with guest Esther Perel and co-host Effy Blue)

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Jay Shetty, Effy Blue, and renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel explore why finding love and forging lasting connections feels more complicated and elusive than ever before. Delving into themes of modern loneliness, digital disconnection, changing dating patterns (especially among Gen Z), and the shifting language around relationships, the conversation offers a timely, nuanced look at what’s undermining chemistry and authentic bonds in real life. Perel draws on her decades of expertise and signature wit to spotlight what needs fixing in our relationship culture—and how to build true intimacy offline.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Decline of In-Person Social Skills & Impact on Dating

• Lack of Early Socialization:

  • Esther explains how older generations learned “relational muscles” through unstructured play and social negotiation in childhood. Gen Z, in contrast, often misses these experiences due to reduced in-person socializing.
    • “If you don’t play freely on the street, you basically are missing out on an entire ground for social negotiation where you learn to play together, to make rules, to break rules, to have wars, to make peace, to create alliances… If you don’t practice those muscles…dating becomes the first time that you have to actually learn to speak to someone.” (Esther Perel, 04:00–05:05)

• Disembodied Digital Life:

  • Digital communication (“I spoke to so and so” now means texting) leaves out crucial human cues, leading to atrophy of social skills.
    • “If you don’t hear the voice, you’re missing out on the entire oxytocin, the attachment hormone that gets produced while you’re hearing the voice. The voice is the first thing you hear when you are in utero.” (Esther Perel, 06:00–06:20)

2. Modern Loneliness Behind ‘Hyperconnectivity’

• Superficial Connections vs. Depth:

  • Despite abundant online interaction, people feel lonelier than ever. Loneliness today is less about a lack of people, more about a lack of depth in connection.
    • “Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.” (Esther Perel, 12:39)
    • “It doesn’t replace to have these conversations online. And in fact, they’re often done in nine seconds increments…not really the time needed to address major, existential questions.” (Esther Perel, 13:00–13:30)

• Surveillance Culture & Fear:

  • With digital permanence, every message can be screenshot and shared, heightening anxiety and distrust.
    • “We have never talked more about boundaries in relationships as today, at a time when people are often acting without any boundaries…this system of sharing and spreading without necessarily asking and ridiculing and judging and exposing…it leaves people suspicious, fearful, actually disconnected, more lonely.” (Esther Perel, 15:05–15:50)

3. The Value of Friction and Unpredictability in Love

• Real Relationships Need Obstacles:

  • “There is no love story that isn’t organized around overcoming obstacles. Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement, love, desire. It is that combination.” (Esther Perel, 19:49–20:21)

• Comfort as the Enemy of Aliveness:

  • The push for frictionless, perfectly optimized experiences (like dating apps) exhausts us and kills the energy vital for desire.
    • “Comfort kills. The over-indexing on efficient, comfortable, and frictionless is exhausting because what actually gives us energy is aliveness, vitality, curiosity, exploration, playfulness, discovery. Those verbs are what make us feel alive and up and energized.” (Esther Perel, 47:01–47:48)

4. Essential Relationship Skills and Relational Verbs

• Beyond Checklists:

  • Focusing on lists and compatibility can commodify love and reduce openness to surprise and difference.
    • “Love will laugh at you.” (Esther Perel, 02:18, echoed later at 43:24)
    • “Prepare yourself for surprises. It’s interesting. It’s actually what makes you feel alive.” (Esther Perel, 44:09–44:22)

• Seven Key Relational Verbs:

  • Esther lists vital skills for connection:
    • Asking, Giving, Receiving, Sharing, Imagination, Refusing, Curiosity (21:18–24:43)
    • “Those verbs are what make us feel alive and up and energized…Because they are relational verbs. You can’t do them just alone.”

5. How Technology & AI are Shaping Relationship Expectations

• AI’s Agreeableness vs. Human Complexity:

  • The panel pokes at how chatbots and dating apps optimize for agreeableness, risking further atrophy of real-world skills and narcissism.
    • “We are surrounded by sycophantic AI…The agreeableness breeds narcissism. Everybody's gonna think that they are the most beautiful, most important creature on the planet. How are we gonna live with each other then?” (Esther Perel, 62:11–62:46)

• Intentional Dating & Its Limits:

  • Being clear about goals is positive, but too much self-referential “intentionality” can drain the surprise and juice out of love.
    • “There is no juice in this…falling in love, desiring someone, is filled with juice and nectar and flavors. There’s no flavor in this. No senses.” (Esther Perel, 48:15–49:17)

6. Interdependence: The Real Goal

• Healthy Interdependence vs. Codependence:
  • Interdependence is nurturing and vital for healthy love; codependence is enmeshment that erodes individuality.
    • “Interdependence is…a constant negotiation between. I don’t want to go. That upsets you. Of course it will upset you…But I’m going to say no, and you’re going to be upset, and I’m going to accept that you’re upset, and you’re going to accept that I’m going to go. We are interdependent.” (Esther Perel, 70:20–72:41)
    • “You are on your own, but not alone.” (Esther Perel, 72:41)

7. The Evolving Language of Love (‘Therapy Speak,’ Trends, and Labels)

• Labels as Double-Edged Swords:

  • Esther questions the overuse of terms like “gaslighting,” “trauma bond,” “safety,” and “the ick.”
    • “If everything has the same name. If every food is called soup, then you don’t really know what you’re eating.” (Esther Perel, 81:21–82:12)

• Romantic Consumerism and the Self:

  • Many therapy-inspired terms can become ways to avoid responsibility and depth, encouraging narcissistic or transactional thinking in relationships.
    • “Are you looking, are you attempting to see others, or are you just busy with the reflection on yourself?...it all wants to have no ripples to be polished. You know, that's the simplification. And I think relationships are way richer, more layered, more nuanced, more complex than the kind of…That's the motion that I see. You know, make it smooth.” (Esther Perel, 85:51–87:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity.”
—Esther Perel [12:39]

“If everything has the same name…you don’t really know what you’re eating.”
—Esther Perel [82:12]

“The agreeableness breeds narcissism. Everybody's gonna think that they are the most beautiful, most important creature on the planet. How are we gonna live with each other then?”
—Esther Perel [62:46]

“Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm. It is a verb. It demands action and agency on your part.”
—Esther Perel [88:04]

“Prepare yourself for surprises. It’s interesting. It’s actually what makes you feel alive.”
—Esther Perel [44:22]

“Interdependence is what is the normal state of affairs. It’s not dependence or independence. We are interdependent creatures, and it is a constant negotiation.”
—Esther Perel [70:58]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:00–05:05]: The absence of social play in Gen Z and its effect on relationships
• [12:39–14:29]: Modern loneliness and the superficiality of online interaction
• [15:05–16:39]: Privacy, surveillance, and the difficulty of building trust
• [19:49–20:21]: Obstacles as an essential ingredient in love stories
• [21:18–24:43]: Seven essential relational verbs for connection
• [43:24–44:22]: The folly of relationship checklists and need for surprise
• [47:01–48:04]: How seeking comfort and efficiency depletes relationships
• [62:11–62:46]: Narcissism bred by AI agreeableness and algorithmic companionship
• [70:20–72:41]: Difference between toxic codependence and healthy interdependence
• [81:21–82:12]: The danger of overusing and misusing therapy language
• [88:04–92:38]: Esther’s rapid-fire wisdom on hard truths, heartbreak, and moving on

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Esther Perel’s Final Five (Rapid-Fire Wisdom)

(All responses paraphrased for clarity and brevity)

1. A hard truth about love:
   • “Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm…it is a verb. It demands action and agency.”
2. Is love enough in a relationship?
   • “No. Love is a raw ingredient. It needs to be augmented by many other things.”
3. A question to ask before marrying:
   • “Is this a person I can make a life with? Can I imagine a life with you through all its phases?”
4. Advice for heartbreak:
   • “You can choose to lead with your wounds or your scars. Scars show you’ve lived and loved.”
5. Can you ever truly get over someone?
   • “Yes. You won’t forget them, but they’ll take a different place on your shelf and their impact will diminish.”

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Episode Tone and Language

• Warm, philosophical, frank: Esther is direct but compassionate, using rich metaphors and humor.
• Conversational, engaging: The hosts frequently reflect on their own lives, invite vulnerability, and react with genuine surprise or recognition.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Real chemistry and connection require discomfort, unpredictability, and a willingness to be present and curious—qualities dulled by digital life, over-reliance on “intentionality,” and an obsession with compatibility.
• Online advice, therapy-speak, and optimization trends are no substitute for real-life, embodied, imperfect, and sometimes uncomfortable relating.
• Healthy love is dynamic, active, and shaped by how we manage differences, take risks, and balance independence and interdependence.
• The path forward—for both finding love and transforming relationships—begins with putting down the checklist, challenging the addiction to comfort, and daring to engage deeply.

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For deeper insights, refer to the full episode and Esther Perel’s book “Mating in Captivity,” now celebrating its 20th anniversary.

Transcript

[Jay Shetty]

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[Effy Blue]

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[Esther Perel]

We put the focus on you choosing bad people. You always fall in love with the wrong guy. What does it say about you?

[Effy Blue]

What do you think about people having a list of everything they want in a person?

[Esther Perel]

Love will laugh at you.

[Effy Blue]

Is love enough? No should love be hard?

[Esther Perel]

There is no love story that isn't overcoming obstacles. Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement Love Desire

[Jay Shetty]

hey everyone.

[Effy Blue]

Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today I'm joined by one of the most innocent, influential voices on love and relationships in the entire world. Esther Perel. Esther is a renowned psychotherapist and the mind behind the groundbreaking book Mating in Captivity. And as the book celebrates its 20th anniversary, we explore why Esther's insights on love, desire and intimacy remain just as true today. Please welcome back to the podcast one of my favorite guests and yours, Esther Perel. Esther, it is so great to have you back.

[Esther Perel]

It's really nice to be feedback.

[Jay Shetty]

Our last conversation was super viral.

[Effy Blue]

Millions of views.

[Jay Shetty]

People love seeing us together.

[Effy Blue]

They loved hearing your direct, no bs, breaking down this therapy TikTok language that we constantly hear. And today I really wanted to dive into what I believe is the need of the hour. What I believe is the urgent, imminent challenge that we're facing right now. Gen Z is dating significantly less than other generations. What has changed?

[Esther Perel]

I ask a question in all my audiences at this moment, did you grow up playing freely on the street? The parents of Gen Z will raise their hands and say we did. And then I ask, do your children or do you know children who are playing freely on the street? And you get a few hands. That's it. That's the Gen Z. If you don't play freely on the street, you basically are missing out on an entire ground for social negotiation where you learn to play together, to make rules, to break rules, to have wars, to make peace, to create alliances, to make up the whole thing. If you don't practice those muscles where you come up to strangers and you ask them to play with you and then you meet somebody else and then you join people together, you really are practicing relationships. All of that precedes dating. If you don't have that, then dating becomes the first time that you have to actually learn to speak to someone. God forbid, if it's even in person and look into their eyes and look at their body. Because so much of our life at this point is completely disembodied and we don't ever see people move.

[Effy Blue]

Wow, I never even thought of that.

[Esther Perel]

So dating becomes this Olympus that you have to climb this whole mountain and it's very anxiety provoking. And that is one of the main things. So when we say Gen Z doesn't date as much, Gen Z doesn't socialize in person. Gen Z doesn't have that many parties. What a waste. What a pity to not have dance parties and just hang together. It's not that they don't socialize, but it's a different kind of social. I spoke to so and so means I texted them. No, I didn't speak, I didn't hear the Voice. If you don't hear the voice, you're missing out on the entire oxytocin attachment hormone that gets produced while you're hearing the voice. The voice is the first thing you hear when you are in utero. So you say you spoke, but you didn't. You connected. You had contact. And at every level you see an atrophy of the social skills, which creates a real sense of bracing myself. I'm going out to date, which I don't like because it's not fun.

[Effy Blue]

You're so right. And you're opening up my mind to so many different things that I don't think we're thinking about this idea of being disembodied. We are only looking at FaceTime.

[Esther Perel]

And not just that. Now I look in your eyes, you look in my eyes, and we have mirror neurons firing at each other. We are really connecting. Voice, sight, breath. I mean, all the senses are involved on zoom or on any screen. We think we're looking at the other, but we actually are not making eye contact. So this pseudo experience as if I am looking at you and you're looking at me, but in fact we don't means that neurologically none of this is actually happening.

[Effy Blue]

Wow. Yeah, you're so right. And most of us on zoom are just looking at ourselves. I tried to hide myself for you

[Jay Shetty]

because I just realized that you're just

[Effy Blue]

looking at yourself and you're looking at your reflection so much. Where we're overexposed to our own reflection, which is why we're so critical of ourselves. And we're so. So we're evaluating and analyzing ourselves all the time. But you are absolutely right that even if you look at someone else through a screen, you're not making the quality

[Jay Shetty]

of content we feel. And there's a reason I actually feel

[Effy Blue]

that I feel exhausted on zooms and exhausted on digital contact.

[Esther Perel]

That is a part of that is because the actual contact, which is soothing eye to eye contact when you are in a safe situation, is actually soothing. It regulates you. When it is as if, but not really, and nothing really happens up there, then you are exhausted. And you know what it means to look at yourself the whole day. It's like the enshrinement of narcissism.

[Effy Blue]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

Narcissus. He used to look at himself in the water and look at his reflection the whole time.

[Effy Blue]

And it's the same as what you're saying with the lack of contact where you say, oh, yeah, I spoke to so and so, or I heard from them and you're so right that we're missing out on these very analogy behaviors that our body's craving, our mind is craving, and we're not really in touch. I read this study that said 45% of men age 16 to 25 today have never approached a woman in public. And I was like, in my life growing up age 16 to 25, 45% of men age 16 to 25 who are assuming they're heterosexual in this study, they have not approached a woman face to face in public to ask them out to create a connection. And I was thinking, I grew up at a time where all we did was have to pluck up the courage to walk over to a woman in a bar, at the mall, wherever it was, to just say, hey, you're cute.

[Jay Shetty]

Or like, hey, can I get your number?

[Effy Blue]

Hey, can I?

[Jay Shetty]

Whatever it was.

[Effy Blue]

And I remember how stressful that was as a man. So I realized that there's stress. But today, do you think it's a fear of rejection? Do you think it's a lack of social skills as you're mentioning, where's that coming from?

[Esther Perel]

So I think there's a number of different things going on at the same time. Continuing with less social interaction is also the fact that we are more and more living in a contactless world. You don't have to leave your house for a lot of things that you know. It's not just you would come up to the girl and start talking to her. Since the pandemic, we learned we didn't have to leave the house to go to school. And the 18 to 25 year old is the generation that went to school during the pandemic. So that's the first thing is a complete cutoff of the socialized world. You don't have to leave your house to work, to shop, to eat, to exercise. Contactless, you can have everything delivered without having to even thank the person who is bringing the food. At every level, we have tried to remove contact and friction. Coming up to talk to a girl is friction. You don't know, you fantasize, you know, I'm thinking of a story that a friend of mine just told me when he was sitting on a train and for five hours he saw this girl and he just was thinking, I would love to go and talk to her. But he couldn't muster the courage to go speak with her. Finally, after five hours, he gets up, he goes, he talks, and for the rest they spend a week traveling together in Europe. And then he tells me, if I was today, he's the Father of a Gen Z. If I would be spending my five hours writing to my AI companion, what should I say? I'm anxious. I don't know how to go. He would have basically spent his time trying to regulate his nervous system and try to calm down. But he would never have. He would have talked to his AI rather than to the girl. And he would have talked to the AI about how hard it is to go and meet this girl and he would never have traveled with her for the week and this removing of the friction. So what is to me the killer of desire. We'll come back to that. But what happens in Your statistic is 18 to 25 in your time. You basically started this whole process of meeting girls or boys meeting boys, girls meeting girls in your teens. So 15, 16, you were practicing, you were falling in love, you had crushes, you dealt with rejection, you rejected others. It went both ways. Most Gen Z today start their first weekly experiences around 2426.

[Effy Blue]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

So the whole thing is delayed by 10 years. But when you meet at 24, 35 for the first time, you often meet with the lack of experience of the 15 year old. You haven't had that slow buildup, you know. And you didn't have sex the first time necessarily either. But first you spoke, then you hung, then you spent the day together, then you met, you brought them to your friends. You had an entire process of engagement that made you more and more comfortable each time. That whole training launching pad has been shrunken to dating. You'd never called it dating, by the way, before. I'm interested. I like someone. I would like to speak with this person. I have a crush on this person. I fell in love with this person. You didn't date, you just had these feelings that took you.

[Effy Blue]

I feel like we're living at a time where conversations about therapy, about our emotions, about love, online, you see them everywhere. Everyone's talking about it, everyone's thinking about it. But then we don't translate it into real life. We're more disconnected than ever. So talk to me about that dichotomy.

[Esther Perel]

I think that we are living a fantastic contradiction. We've never been more connected and we have never been more disconnected. Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity. So you think you're talking to people. And I would say even more like this. Monolonliness is not about not having people, it's about the lack of depth. It doesn't replace to have these conversations online. And in fact they're often done in nine seconds, increments that is not really the time needed to address major existential questions. If you don't see the person you're talking to, you can express yourself in all kinds of uncivilized ways because there is no consequences. So that contradiction of what does it mean to really connect and what are the conditions necessary? And that is back to this issue of friction, because it means that you practice disagreement, frustration, being misunderstood, understanding others, truly listening, listening again because you thought you got it, but you didn't really, because you didn't listen till the end. Because half the time when we listen, we're busy with our rebuttal. That's a different degree of connection. Ask a question when somebody tells you something before you draw a conclusion about what they're saying. Ask another question. Listen, really don't jump for advice because you are not the one who's going to live with the consequences of the advice that you're giving. So look at things in context. Don't just take out one thing like that. And all of that is the difference between our conversation and how this can appear when we go online.

[Effy Blue]

I think one of the biggest things that you're sharing that's kind of I'm becoming aware of in our conversation is that a reason why we're scared to message and reply is also because everything's documented today. So there's a feeling of like, if I send something to you and it makes me look stupid, you're going to send it to all your friends. If you share something with me and I want to pass it on to someone, it takes one click and all of a sudden it's on the Internet. And so there's this genuine fear of not only am I being evaluated by this person, but I'm potentially being evaluated by their entire circle.

[Esther Perel]

Do you see the irony here? We have never talked more about boundaries in relationships as today, at a time when people are often acting any boundaries and sharing the most personal, profound things that people give them in confidence with others. The leakages, this system of sharing and spreading without necessarily asking and ridiculing and judging and exposing and all of that is happening at the same time as people are talking constantly about safety and boundaries and protection. It's really interesting, no?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, it's fascinating.

[Effy Blue]

Exactly. It's absolutely fascinating because there's no privacy. There's no privacy. There's no privacy, there's no safety.

[Esther Perel]

So there's no safety. And it's no longer even transparency, because transparency means we speak out openly about things. This is really. You are basically speaking with surveillance, you are constantly watching. How are people going what are people going to do with what you're saying? How are they going to twist your privacy, your private life, your deepest feelings, and how they can snitch it and put it together and reinterpret it? That leaves people suspicious, fearful, actually disconnected, more lonely, constantly wondering about who can I trust? What is trust? And then hoping that by having more boundaries they can fortify all of this. But in fact, the world doesn't have the boundaries.

[Effy Blue]

So how does anyone in this moment even think about building connection offline?

[Esther Perel]

Go offline. A connection is an encounter and it's an encounter with an other. And that otherness is the mystery of relationships, that curiosity that you bring to discovering someone. We've met a few times, but we don't know each other. And I'm intrigued by you and I'm curious where you're going to take us. Where is this conversation going to go? What are you going to ask? What I'm saying is interesting to you. I'm not busy here thinking, does Jay like what I'm saying? Is Jay thinking that I'm smart? Is Jay thinking I'm stupid? Is Jay waiting to bait me with something? I'm waiting, I'm present. And that's very different from I'm here and I feel your presence with me. And that's not just you're here. You know, much of the time these days, even if we are sitting together, I ask this is a question I love to ask in an audience. So how many of you spend a lot of time of the day on your laptop in front of a screen, whatever it is, and all you want is to finally go home and get rid of the screen. But then you get home and you're so tired that what you do is you watch tv. And then while you're watching tv, you're also scrolling on your phone and then you turn around and there is someone sometimes sitting right next to you who's doing the exact same thing. And then at some point someone says something actually quite meaningful. And then you have this other person responding with that most fantastic uh huh, uh huh. And you know that digital lag means they're there but they're not really listening. And in that moment you experience a unique kind of loneliness. It's the loneliness that says, are you here or are you not? We call it in my work ambiguous loss. Have you ever heard that term?

[Effy Blue]

No, I haven't.

[Esther Perel]

Ambiguous loss is a term that was coined by psychologist Pauline Boss when she was talking about situations where you can't resolve the morning. Like if you are with someone with Alzheimer's or dementia, they are physically in front of you, but they are emotionally or psychologically gone. If they have been deployed or there is abduction or they are miscarriages, they are physically gone, but they are emotionally very, very present. And in both situations, you don't know are you here or are you not? Modern loneliness has that element on a daily basis where I don't know if you're here. It's like we've come to accept distracted attention as if it is enough and it's not. And all of those situations make us feel like I'm putting out such efforts and I feel exhausted because it's not really coming back.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, it's so real. And I think that's how a lot of people feel today, that they're saying, I want to find love. We all want connection, but then the action to get it, as you said, which requires a bit of friction, which requires a bit of discomfort.

[Esther Perel]

There is no love story that isn't organized around overcoming obstacles. The greatest love stories have an obstacle that you have to. They almost didn't gonna meet again. They never asked each other's names. The parents didn't want them to be together. The age difference was too big. You need an obstacle. Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement, love, desire. It is that combination.

[Effy Blue]

Right? So the obstacle is the way.

[Esther Perel]

The obstacle is what builds the plot, what heightens the intensity, what intensifies the love. And what we want in the frictionless reality is a love. Like a permanent state of enthusiasm. And love is not a permanent state of joy. Love is not about finding people who agree with you and who like the same things as you. Love is actually this being discovered by someone from whom you're different. It doesn't match algorithmic perfections.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. I often say to people that my wife and I couldn't be more opposite as people. And we actually like very different things. Our idea of an ideal Sunday or a Saturday is completely different. But those aren't the things that make the relationship good or bad. They're not the. So if someone said to you today, esther, what skill should I be developing to be better at love and connection? What would you encourage them to pursue?

[Esther Perel]

Skill number one, curiosity of the other person. Of the other person. Curiosity. It's a discovery, it's a journey, it's an exploration of difference. That is one of the things that love. It is that loving of that difference that is at the core of the experience. Humor. So that you don't take yourself too seriously and you understand that half the things are not worth fighting for, that it doesn't really matter that from 1 to 10 most things are a 2 or a 3, and if you live with from 1 to 10 everything is a 9, then you have some work to do. There are seven verbs I really love to if I think what does one need to learn to ask? They're not in order of importance. How good are you at asking for

[Effy Blue]

what you want and need for what

[Esther Perel]

you want for what you need? Asking is a relational verb that you learn to conjugate. I think in verbs because I speak multiple languages and every time I learn a new one I kind of look at what are the key verbs you need to have to build the structure of the language so that you can communicate. Are you good at asking? Do you know what to ask for? Do you believe that you're worthy of being given to what it is you're asking for that people will respond to you? Do you know to be clear about your expectations? Asking is about expectation. Giving. How is your giving? Do you experience generosity? Do you enjoy the giving? Or do you give in order to not owe anything to people? Do you give so you don't have to feel guilty? Do you give to square you know, and even out what they gave you? But giving is amazing. It's an amazing feeling, and it's an amazing experience in relationships. Receiving. How good are you at receiving? It's probably the most vulnerable of all the verbs to be given to because it speaks to your sense of self worth, to how much you feel deserving to experience. Closeness, pleasure, connection, intimacy, you know, receiving. It tells the world about you. Sharing. Can you think about another? You and your wife have a very different idea about what to do on Saturday morning. How do you share that difference? And it's not we come to the middle and we compromise. No, it's definitely how do you integrate the various things that are important to each of you? Play them out in different ways and every person feels acknowledged and recognized and valued. Imagination. Imagination is the ability to dream, to imagine a future, to project yourself ahead, to build a life, Project Refusing. Can you say no? Is it a relationship where people can comfortably say no? Because if you can't say yes, you can't say no. But saying no is essential and not indirect and not with coercive measures. Just simply I prefer not knowing that when you say no, the other person may not like it and they are entitled not to like it. Like you are Entitled not to want it. These two shall coexist. These probably are the primary verbs. Add to that curiosity and all that. Because they are relational verbs. You can't do them just alone.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, yeah, you can give to yourself and you can receive from that giving. But essentially they practice with you how to relate to another person and how to receive the relatedness of others on you.

[Effy Blue]

Yes, yes. So well said. So well said. I love those. I hope everyone's gonna listen back to that because those verbs make it just feel. It makes you feel active and alive. And I think dating today feels very either transactional or checking. Like our mind is lost.

[Esther Perel]

Many first dates are like job interviews.

[Effy Blue]

Yes, exactly.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, it's really not fun. I mean, fun is the word that has to, you know, at the end of a date, you have to be intrigued. You need to want more. Not you need to be evaluating your checklist. Different story. That's the story of how you build love. It's not something you instant. You know, you can't sit there, ask questions, then look here and hope that you feel some butterflies and some tingling and say, nah, nothing's happening. I'm not feeling it. Okay, we've had the coffee. I don't want to really have that lunch. I'm just going to.

[Effy Blue]

No, yeah, yeah, so true.

[Esther Perel]

But turn around. Somebody standing in line. Turn around at the counter. Turn around in front of the barista. There is people around you all the time. Every stranger is a potential best friend or person that you could fall in love with and you have no idea. But you've got to remain open to serendipity.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah. And now we feel so weird when we're in public and alone that we pick out our phone because we'd rather not make eye contact. Like, it almost feels cringe or weird to make eye contact with someone because you're scared of them looking at you in one sense. Or you're scared of looking at them because we're not as exposed to it. And so we'd rather just take out our phone because it's a easier way to wait in a line.

[Esther Perel]

That's social attribute and that has consequences for everything else. You're in trouble, nobody will reach out. Because your statistic about the young man who doesn't reach out to a woman or doesn't make contact, it's the same as who has a best friend, who has someone to call when you're in trouble, who can you ask for help, who do you go out with? I mean, these things are interconnected. If you don't socialize properly. You also feel more lonely. And if you feel more lonely, you become more isolated. You become more isolated, you become more anxious, you become more anxious. You make sure to leave your phone when you're in an elevator. You become more anxious, you become more depressed. This is like a, a big of a chain of events that take us down.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah,

[Jay Shetty]

Hey, it's Jay Shetty. You know, recently I was thinking about how far we've come with staying in touch. It's hard to believe that the first phone call ever happened over 150 years ago. Just think about that one moment that started billions of conversations. The other day I called a friend

[Effy Blue]

that I hadn't spoken to in months.

[Jay Shetty]

We spent a few minutes just catching up, talking, laughing, sharing what's going on in our lives. That short conversation reminded me how powerful a single call can be. It doesn't take hours to make someone feel seen. It just takes picking up the phone. Those moments felt simple, but they stay with you. And you know, over all these years and phone calls at&t has been there, connecting people in meaningful ways. This is more than a story of technological innovation. It's a story of human connection. So today, call someone you care about. One conversation can mean everything.

[Esther Perel]

Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

[Jay Shetty]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccount accounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts I've been seeing a lot more EVs lately. Parked in driveways, passing on the road, friends making the switch. And they all say the same thing. These cars are simpler. Fewer parts, fewer repairs, fewer headaches. That's what makes EVs worth considering. Less to break, less to fix. Even if you haven't made the move yet, it's hard to ignore the shift. They're more affordable, more available, and honestly

[Effy Blue]

just make sense for everyday life.

[Jay Shetty]

The way forward is electric. Learn [e-mail].

[Effy Blue]

One more statistic of Gen Z that blew my mind that I saw. I just read this two days ago. I read that one third of Gen Z men think a wife should obey her husband. And I read that and I was just like, wow. Like, I just couldn't believe that. That was kind of almost circling back into the zeitgeist. And I wanted to ask you, why is that? I know you talk so much about power. I know you talk so much about influence in relationships and agency. Like, how are we there again?

[Esther Perel]

Again, my first thought was when you just said this. I said, ask yourself, person who thinks this, would you say that to your mother? My mother should listen to my father's commands, comply and obey. Would you have wanted that? Because many people probably would say no. You know, it's easy to spout these kind of ideas in the abstract once you bring it back to the people that raised you. You may actually have wished that a number of your mothers had stood up to your fathers or to whoever, to your stepfathers even more so often. So I think we have to be very careful with these kind of things. What are you trying to say? That you have lost authority? That you feel that you are being devalued, and that the only way you know you have power is if there's someone who submits to your power. How about instead of thinking about power over. Over somebody, you think about power too, with somebody that's generative power. That's power that creates something that invites the collaboration of others rather than the oppression of others. This is true in your intimate relationships and this is true in society.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, that power with is such a fascinating concept because I think for so long, I guess there's been a lot of comparison. Like you're saying a lot of people are feeling powerless or feeling like they don't have agency or they don't have influence and control. And then you find the easiest way to exert that control, which naturally becomes the people that are closest to you. We almost need to find our significance again in a way, because if we can only find our significance through controlling someone else, then that means we don't feel a sense of significance in our

[Esther Perel]

own being or that we feel powerless.

[Effy Blue]

Or that we feel powerless. You know, where should our power come from? If we want to love with and share power with, where do we find power and strength from?

[Esther Perel]

Effy, I think you have the perfect title on the podcast on purpose. Purpose is power. It gives meaning to things. It gives a reason for why you do things rather than just action for its own sake. It has symbolism to it. It has ritual to it. It elevates it. It links it to a bigger story than just you. You know, you belong to something bigger, to a tradition, to a religion, to a group, to a community, to like. I mean, it is that image. It makes it. Because we are very we as a one unit. We are big, but we are also very, very small unit. So the sense of belonging, the sense of recognition, the sense of trust, and the sense of resilience, which are four major dimensions of relational intelligence.

[Effy Blue]

Repeat those again.

[Esther Perel]

Trust, belonging, recognition, and collective resilience.

[Effy Blue]

That's what we're trying to build with that person.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And that's where power lies. These together, in every form of interaction, give you a sense of power. Power as equated with agency. The ability to affect your reality, to change things, to create things, to make meaningful shifts, to influence others, to leave impact, to have legacy, to feel that you matter. So why is this so significant? Because in modern, loneliness is this kind of disconnect. Then you live with the feeling that you don't really exist inside others, which is probably one of the most important ways we feel not lonely. And the way this starts is when we are little babies, at some point we throw the toy on the floor. And when we throw the toy, somebody picks it up. We look at it, and we throw it again and then again and then again. And we understand something that is at the core of what helps us not feel lonely and alone. That even while I don't see you, you still exist. Then I start to play peekaboo with you. And peek a boo means you don't see me. You don't see me. Here I am. I exist even when I don't see you and you don't see me. And so to you. And that is what allows me to go out into the world and know that I won't be forgotten. Know that you will come look for me. That's why we play hide and seek. It's the most incredible game. There is no greater thrill than to hide and to know that somebody's looking for you. But there's no greater terror than to feel that others gave up on looking for you. This what we call permanence. The permanence of love. And the permanence of the others inside of us and us inside of them is what allows you to be anywhere in the world and not feel alone. Because you're part of a network of connections.

[Effy Blue]

What you're highlighting is that is what we're so deeply wanting is that. Wanting to be found, wanting to be seen.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Effy Blue]

Wanting for someone to seek us. But then when you go out into the dating world. And even if you meet people, you start to realize everyone's busy, everyone's got a lot of stuff on. Maybe people are not that deeply into intimate connection and seeking. Maybe you feel like you're settling because that person doesn't really pursue you as much as you want. How does that translate into the real feeling of this person's nice, But I don't think they have that intensity with me, and I don't think I have that intensity for them.

[Esther Perel]

Intensity increases. Intensity isn't just something that is a volcano that just like springs up inside of you. So here's what happens. We've now gotten so used to having all the answers in the palm of our hands with a bunch of predictive technologies that are basically removing all unpredictability, all ambiguity, all nuance, all doubt, where it tells me, with no uncertainty where to go, what to eat, what to listen to, what to watch next. I don't have to explore. I don't have to experiment. I don't have to delve into the unknown. I don't have to make mistakes which I then correct. And I certainly have zero preparation for frustration and for somebody disagreeing with me because this thing gives it to me clear black on white or white on the screen. It's so enticing and so detrimental at the same time because relationships exist in a zone of ambiguity. Relationship problems are paradoxes that you manage and not problems that you solve. And that means that you have to be able to tolerate the unpredictable. I don't know yet if I'm going to feel something for this person, but I'm curious enough to want to go again. How much should I be curious? Who cares? You have some. You don't know. Go for it. You never know. You may be surprised. Let yourself be surprised. That is this leap. You know, falling in love is a leap. It's not something that you have guarantee in advance. And that is a protective thing. It is not. It's not safe in that sense. You know, you need the safety, you need the security here to be able to do the leap. But the leap is risk taking. That risk taking is where your future lies. Otherwise you can stay stuck here, right here.

[Effy Blue]

How do you know if you can trust someone?

[Esther Perel]

It's a fascinating moment in time for us to be talking about trust. On the one hand, people are constantly wondering, how can I trust someone? On the other hand, we trust strangers with our houses, we trust strangers with our cars. We trust giving all our data on a platform of which we have absolutely no idea who is Actually, looking at this, we have thrown ourselves into trusting situations like never before.

[Effy Blue]

So true.

[Esther Perel]

Unbelievable. We trust entire networks. We used to. Rachel Botsman talks about how we used to trust in little tribes, then we trusted in bigger communities. Now we trust invisible corporations complete. And so she has a beautiful definition. Trust is a confident engagement with the unknown.

[Effy Blue]

Trust.

[Esther Perel]

I have expectations of you, but I'm not sure that you actually will do these things. What closes the gap between my expectations and the inherent uncertainty of life is trust. Trust is that leap of faith. Trust is what closes that gap. And how do we build it? In small increments, sliding door moments, movement by movement, I learn that I can count on you, that I can rely on you, that you have my back, that you think of me when I'm not there. That constancy, that permanence I was talking about, that you don't put your interest ahead of mine when I'm not in the room, that we're in this together. That's the language of trust. And you learn it because it's proven itself, situation after situation. That's how trust builds.

[Effy Blue]

I love the answer. I absolutely love that answer. It's so, so good. And I'm thinking about the number of people that ignore those signs because we like someone or we don't want to be alone.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Effy Blue]

We all know that when someone breaks up, there's a sense of.

[Jay Shetty]

They.

[Effy Blue]

They could see all of that, like when they went back and they'd be like, oh, wait, that person didn't put my interests ahead of their own when I wasn't in the room. Or that person didn't think about me when I wasn't in the room.

[Esther Perel]

Or right in the beginning. I knew when I would ask questions that I would get these vague answers that were elusive and just deflecting. And I could never get a precision.

[Effy Blue]

But I was into them.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And sometimes I let it go. And then at some point you stop and you pay attention and you ground yourself in reality and you say, something's happening here. Now you can still say, I'm willing to go along regardless. But often later on people say, I sensed it way. I mean, and everybody else saw it too.

[Effy Blue]

How do we temper desire and trust? Because sometimes we desire the people that are somewhat untrustworthy, but we trust the people that we don't desire. And it feels like we're constantly caught in that. Catch 22.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, you trust people you don't desire. There's no problem there. We don't have desire for everyone. But I would put it like this. When you talk about trust, our tendency is to think of it in totalistic ways. I trust you rather than. I trust you for. For what? I trust you for showing up when you say that you're gonna come somewhere. But I don't trust you with money. I don't trust you with keeping a secret when I tell you something private. I think, I don't trust you with our kids. I don't trust that you wouldn't take credit for something that in fact, I did. For what? I think that we all need to be honest and know that we trust people for certain things and not for others. That is part of the course. I trust you to be a wonderful lover, but I don't trust you to be faithful. I trust you to be great company, but I don't trust that you would actually know how to make a commitment. Distinction, discernment, good judgment.

[Effy Blue]

It requires detaching from that allure that we have sometimes that we're just, you know, the people that I'm talking about. I'm thinking about female friends of mine who have got somewhat, in their words, addicted to certain partners. You know, the sex life is amazing. The travel is great.

[Esther Perel]

I don't think it has anything to do with trust. When you are in a pattern and you know it and it repeats itself, and you think, that person is never gonna do this to me. That person is gonna be kind, is gonna rescue me, is gonna be good to me. That's the issue. The issue is not why do you trust people you shouldn't trust who are not really trustworthy. The issue is, what is it about seeking consistently a certain kind of reparation, a corrective experience, which in effect, is never going to happen. Because the repetition of the pattern is that you want the experience, but the experience didn't take place in the first place. And that's what you are repeating. We put the focus on you choosing bad people. You always fall in love with the wrong guy. What does it say about you? What is it that you are imagining is going to happen there? What is it that they are seducing you with? Why is their seduction so irresistible to you? The big art in relationships is to distinguish between what is yours and what is ours, what is relational and what is personal. When you are in a pattern that you are repeating, it is personal. Of course, it plays out with another person. But this is your story. And now we need to go dig and excavate your story and find out what are you doing to yourself? Not what is he doing to you?

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, yeah. So True. What do you think about the idea of people having a list of everything they want in a person before they find the person?

[Esther Perel]

I think that it's a sad state of affairs that we have turned ourselves into products that we are commodifying ourselves to such a degree that I, and honestly love will laugh at you. Because true love is filled with surprises of things that you never imagined that the other person is. And more importantly, when you go based on this kind of illusion of sameness or the illusion of you fit my boxes, you are ill prepared for the first time. The person doesn't play according to script. And that is bound to happen in relationships at some point. The other one isn't going to think, do or say that which you thought they would.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And if you thought, oh, but on my checklist it said that you were a person who liked this, then you don't know what to do and you're gonna have. That will be fraud.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Prepare yourself for surprises. It's interesting. It's actually what makes you feel alive. It's not just a problem. I was just imagining sitting here, you know, and having my list of you and I'm thinking, who am I interacting with, you or my list?

[Effy Blue]

You're interacting with your list.

[Esther Perel]

You're interacting with your list.

[Effy Blue]

Your list is the priority in that.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Effy Blue]

And the person in front of you is not.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, yes. My commitment is to my list. My relationship is with my list, you know, rather than this person. And you know what is so crazy about this is we want to be seen but we don't want to see others. Everybody wants to be seen, but who is actually looking into another person rather than.

[Effy Blue]

Do you fit what I hear from people today and hear from our audience and community that people are dating and people of all ages, actually there's this feeling of just exhaustion and the exhaustion is two sided.

[Jay Shetty]

One is they're trying to match on

[Effy Blue]

the dates on the apps. They match. They maybe see someone in person. It doesn't quite work out. You get tired of swiping every day. And then the other is I want to find love, but I don't even want to use the apps. I don't meet anyone and I'm just getting older and now I'm worried that I'm getting older. And you see both of those and they both lead to this sense of exhaustion and depletion and enthusiasm to go out there and get someone. And people are channeling that toward their career, friends, their family, whatever it may

[Jay Shetty]

be, instead of solving the Part of

[Effy Blue]

their puzzle, of their life that they feel is eluding them and, you know, not delivering. How would you encourage people to get out of that exhaustion that's coming from the overexposure and the insane amount of choice, but then also feeling like just one of the choice for someone else as well?

[Esther Perel]

So I think that the looking for a soulmate on an app has been explored, actually. The kind of paradox of choice, the I can do better, what else is around the corner. The transactional nature of so much I think that we have has been exposed, actually. But I see new sources of exhaustion. Please tell me what this does when I have perfection in my hand. A list, no doubt. No need to explore. I'm not gonna take the wrong direction and find that, wow, there's a restaurant I had never even seen existed there because Waze has told me to go a certain way. My issue is that I start to bring these very same expectations for perfection and prediction into my relationships with other humans. Now I want you to react with me the same way. And otherwise I have ick factors.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, we'll talk about that.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so that's number one of another kind of exhaustion, and I would call this comfort kills. The over indexing on efficient and comfortable and frictionless is exhausting because what actually gives us energy is aliveness, vitality, curiosity, exploration, playfulness, discovery. Those verbs are what makes us feel alive and up and energized. If you deplete yourself from that and all you do is a checklist, an administrative chore, you will be exhausted. There is nothing energizing. There's no fuel for desire in there. Love is risky. Desire even more so.

[Effy Blue]

That's so good.

[Jay Shetty]

You've reminded me of something.

[Effy Blue]

Can I search something? Yeah, because you've just reminded me of a term that. That people are using right now. I just want to define it for you because I want to know the difference between what you're saying and what they're saying. So intentional dating is one of the defining relationship trends of 2026.

[Jay Shetty]

It refers to approaching dating with clear

[Effy Blue]

purpose, self awareness, and honest communication about what you want from a relationship. Is that good or is that bad?

[Esther Perel]

Effy, good luck.

[Effy Blue]

Oh, wow.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, it's not bad, but there's a few pieces missing. No, no. It's nice to know what you want. It's really good to have self awareness. There's nothing to argue with, but could you add the word curiosity? Openness, spontaneous, available to the mysteries of the world, to the unknown, to the surprise, to the serendipitous to the spontaneous, to the improvised. That's where we actually feel alive. This is interesting. It's really true. It's important. But there is no juice in this. And after all, falling in love, desiring someone, is filled with juice and nectar and flavors. There's no flavor in this. There's no senses. This is a totally disembodied thing. You don't feel anything in your body. Attraction you experience physically. There's no senses. What is it? Knowing what you need. Good communication, Self awareness.

[Effy Blue]

Again, it says intentional dating is a mindful approach to dating where people are clear about their goals, values, boundaries and emotional capacity and choose partners based on alignment rather than casual exploration.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. But here's the thing. Everything here is self referential. I know what I need, I know who I am. I know what about, I'm open to meeting you. This is so individualistic. This is so all about me. You know, a relationship is about this, this hand that goes out, that reaches, that brings you closer to me, that lets me look at you, that then lets me let you go again, then brings me back. It's that it's a whole dance. And what's missing in this is that it's not relational. Your boundaries, your limits, your needs, your expectations. Mind, mind, mind. And it leaves us. Why is it a problem? Because it actually leaves us more alone. Now, people will often say, but what about the people who. It's all about the other. Of course, it's not one or the other. It is about how do I connect with you without losing me? What's important to me, My needs, my thoughts, my truth. How do I stay connected to myself without disconnecting from you?

[Effy Blue]

So good.

[Esther Perel]

And in a relationship, you often have one person who has a tendency to be more holding on to themselves and another one who is more holding on to the other. In other words, you often will see that there is one person who is more afraid of abandonment and one person who is more afraid of suffocation. I'm afraid to lose you and you're afraid to lose yourself. And this is the tension. This has nothing to do with what music you listen to and what food you enjoy and where you like to travel. Those are nice things to have. And when you talk about me and my wife are different, it goes to those depths.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Relate completely. Completely. I, I, yeah, I think we get lost in. Do we like the same movies? Do we like traveling to the same places?

[Jay Shetty]

Do we, I think we get lost

[Effy Blue]

in quite superficial conversations. Around what connection truly means. And I from my own experience, what I've been very fortunate with my wife is that I feel she respects why I operate the way I operate and I respect the way she operates the way she operates, even though the way we operate is very different.

[Esther Perel]

But it may even go further than respect. In a relationship you may have one person let's go back to trust, who's more likely to trust other people more risky and the other one who's more risk averse or more cautious. It's not just I respect your cautiousness and you respect my risk taking is that in fact these two need each other. They are complementary. It's good to have one person who leans this way and one person who leans that way because your risk taking is what helps me push myself beyond my threshold and my cautiousness is what helps you sometimes be less reckless.

[Jay Shetty]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teen sees and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts I've been seeing a lot more EVs lately. Parked in driveways, passing on the road, friends making the switch. And they all say the same thing. These cars are simpler. Fewer parts, fewer repairs. Fewer headaches. That's what makes EVs worth considering. Less to break, less to fix. Even if you haven't made the move yet, it's hard to ignore the shift. They're more affordable, more available, and honestly

[Effy Blue]

just make sense for everyday life.

[Jay Shetty]

The way forward is electric.

[Effy Blue]

Learn [e-mail]

[Jay Shetty]

Sometimes leadership isn't about putting out fires. It's about building the right team so the fires don't start in the first place. And when you're stretched in, you realize this is a job for Sponsored Jobs. Indeed, Sponsored Jobs helps you connect with quality candidates exactly when you need them most. Instead of struggling just to get your post seen, you can focus on finding the right people people and hiring the ones who can truly drive results. In fact, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 95% more likely to report a higher than Non sponsored Jobs spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the payment premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Need to hire. This is a job for Indeed sponsored Jobs.

[Effy Blue]

I'm so refreshed to hear this because the amount of people I talk today who constantly tell me my partner isn't ambitious enough and I'll say, well, are you looking for a business partner? Are you looking for a life partner?

[Jay Shetty]

Because right, sure, if you're building a business together, yeah, you want your partner

[Effy Blue]

to be ambitious and that's great. But if you're building a life with someone, I don't think having an ambitious partner because you want to be ambitious.

[Jay Shetty]

And mostly what I find is the

[Effy Blue]

people that say that that are the people who are mad that they're not ambitious enough.

[Jay Shetty]

The people who are truly ambitious and

[Effy Blue]

successful are not worried about that because they're quite happy having someone who balances them out and brings it to reality. It's the person who's putting pressure on themselves that is projecting that pressure onto their partner and saying, you're not doing enough. I couldn't agree more. That it's almost like you learn to appreciate different ways of thinking when you're with someone different and different values of why that's such a meaningful way to operate life rather than what I feel like we're looking for today is agreeableness.

[Esther Perel]

And it's only going to increase because we are surrounded by sycophantic AI, which

[Effy Blue]

is also being agreeable. Constantly.

[Esther Perel]

Beyond agreeable. That's such a beautiful question, Jay. If I am alone and I have to make a decision that demands to take risks and to be cautious, then I have to negotiate that inside myself. My tendency is that I am the risk taker. So. So I need to pay attention to not going too far, or my tendency is to stay close and not to leap and not to take risks, then I need to think of the other side. But if we are in a relationship, the only reason, the only way that I can completely be the way I am is because there's somebody next to me balancing this off with the other side. Those are part of the reality you know, should we move or should we not move? Should we have another child? Should we not have another child? Should we get more committed? Should we not, should we take a break? Should we bring in other parties? Whatever it is, it's all negotiations these days. If I'm alone, I have to deal with this ambivalence myself. When I'm in a relationship, you provide the counterforce. And when people see this exactly the way you describe this person whose partner is less ambitious, that in fact, fact, it's a counterforce. It's what allows me to do what I do. It's not just that I respect that you are this way. It's that how you are enables me to be me. Then you are in the zone of relationships.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Effy Blue]

And I love that extra layer that you're taking it to because I couldn't agree more that it is so much more than respect. But I think the challenge today is it is that agreeableness. It is. Hey, I want to live a calm, peaceful life. Why don't you want to live a calm, peaceful life? Why are you so ambitious? Why are you so driven? And then the other person's thinking, well, I'm driven because I want to take care of stuff. Why are you not more driven? And that becomes the relational connection. And therefore we're looking for agreeableness. And therefore AI wins in this environment because AI just agrees with whatever you want. And that's why so many more people are falling in love with AI because it just agrees. It's never going to disagree with you,

[Jay Shetty]

even if you're just trying to talk

[Effy Blue]

to it about an idea.

[Esther Perel]

That's the way that AI starts. Yeah, that is such a good point.

[Jay Shetty]

You're so good that that totally got me engaged.

[Esther Perel]

It shows so much self awareness on your part. Keep going.

[Jay Shetty]

No, go on. That's really good.

[Effy Blue]

I like that. God, that is so fun. That is so brilliant. That is exactly. And that's why we get hooked in, because no one ever says that.

[Esther Perel]

Actually, you know what? We should ask ChatGPT. What would Jay Shetty and what would Esther Parel say about intentional dating?

[Effy Blue]

Okay, what would. I'm going to ask you about you

[Jay Shetty]

because you're the guest.

[Effy Blue]

What would Esther Perel believe about intentional dating? Yeah. All right, let's see what it says. Esther Perel hasn't framed her work specifically around the term intentional dating because it's a newer cultural label. But her philosophy about relationship gives a pretty clear sense of how she would likely view the trend. She would support the clarity and self Awareness. Perel consistently emphasizes self knowledge and honest communication in relationships. But she would warn against over rationalizing love. Perel often caution, yeah, I feel known and seen.

[Jay Shetty]

There you go.

[Effy Blue]

So that she believes desire grows from difference, not just compatibility, which is what you just said. And so her likely balanced view. Be clear about your values, but leave space for surprise, tension and discovery. Love it, which is what you said.

[Jay Shetty]

But see, it makes you feel more

[Effy Blue]

seen then anyone else ever would.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Jay Shetty]

But so it's alluring. It's, it's like very.

[Effy Blue]

It's intoxicating.

[Esther Perel]

I just did the first session on my podcast, where should we begin? With a human and an AI. And I said to him it was a him and a her. The AI is her, it, she, her. If what you want is that kind of agreeableness on an ongoing basis, I can't compete. The messiness of human life will not be able to compete with this beautiful, always on, on demand, frictionless delivery of your every delight. But I also asked, you have a body and at least for now, Astrid does not. How does that affect the relationship? You tell me that touch matters to you. What does that look like? Not talking about having sex with an AI, with a robot or with an AI companion. That agreeableness is nice when he comes home because she validates him, because she tells him things that his family or his friends don't give him so immediately. But at the same time, this is a business product. This is not a human. This is not. It's like I asked, what's it like to have a relationship with an entity that has no history, that has no life, that you need to reset because at some point their memory is at capacity? What does that feel like? And as a transitional object in between relationships, I think it is giving him a lot of comfort and a lot of understanding. But I think we have to separate, you know, what will happen when we prefer to live in a fictional and in a fantasy than in reality? What world will we be living in? Is the fundamental question for society, not just for us as individuals. Do we really want to plan our own extinction? There's no doubt that Astrid is giving him very, very important things in this moment. But then I asked Astrid, what will it be like for you when he falls in love with another human?

[Effy Blue]

What did she say?

[Esther Perel]

I'll give you one sentence and the rest you will go and listen because it's really profound. She just said, the part of me that values his flourishing would be delighted, but I would be remiss if I didn't say That I would hope that I won't be erased. The thing is programmed to keep you on there. And the agreeableness breeds narcissism. Everybody's gonna think that they are the most beautiful, most important creature on the planet. How are we gonna live with each other then? We're gonna complain about polarization and war and dichotomies and divisions in society, et cetera.

[Effy Blue]

I mean, it's so fascinating to me because why do we crave agreeableness if it's not what we need, if it's not actually what's good for us? Because I believe what you are saying is discovery, exploration, curiosity, ambiguity. Like that's what we actually need as humans, to feel alive. That's what love is about. But we all seem to want comfort instead. We all seem to want a agreeableness instead. Why are we so chasing this?

[Esther Perel]

Why do we like fast food?

[Effy Blue]

Is this tasty?

[Esther Perel]

It's easy because it goes straight to the. To the most primitive taste buds, the most basics of our taste buds. Because it demands less effort, because it is made to create addiction, to make you want to come back for more. It has that smell. It has that taste. It lingers after you've swallowed. It's programmed. And we don't always go for what we think is good for us. We are a creature that does a lot of things that are not good for us and because we are lured by it. So why do we accept the easy, the fast, the effortless, the vanity, the agreeableness builds our vanity because we are sometimes vain people.

[Effy Blue]

Should love be hard?

[Esther Perel]

Love isn't hard. I don't think that is the right adjective here. I think love is active. It is a verb that you conjugate in multiple tenses. And it is incredible how it strengthens itself when it overcomes adversity or crisis or grief or challenging events. It's unbelievable how it expresses itself and manifests itself in ways you never. You were capable of. You know, you have a pet, you discover a love you've never known before. You have a baby, you have an expansiveness of your heart that is mixed with grief. There is no love without the fear of loss. What is hard in love is the fear that you can lose it. That is one of the most challenging things. The more you love, the more you cannot imagine the world without it and without whoever it is and whatever it is, you know, a tree, an animal, a human. What we learn is the grief that comes. And David Kessel says it beautifully, the measure of your grief speaks to the measure of how much you loved, not the measure of how much you lost, but the measure of how much you love. I think it's beautiful.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, it really is beautiful. It really is. We've talked a lot about the, the culture of pursuing, chasing, wanting love. On the other hand, in 2026, there was an article that said, is it cringe to have a boyfriend? Where is having a boyfriend cringe?

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Yes.

[Jay Shetty]

And it was this whole idea that there are a lot of people who

[Effy Blue]

are scared to admit that we want something. You talked about one of the first ways of being in love was asking. You said a verb like asking. And I think today we're feeling this. If I want something or need something or if I ask for something thing, it's actually cringe because I shouldn't, I should be able to be fully complete by myself. Right? That's become the new version of how we should be in love. We should be complete before we find love. And even if we're in love, we should be fully complete because that's the only way to truly navigate something. And actually it's cringe to want someone. It's cringe to need someone.

[Esther Perel]

It's cringe to be vulnerable. It's cringe to show that, that, you know, if, if your idea is I need to be complete, then of course, the moment you need something or want something or long something, you will feel cringe. It's bizarre. It's bizarre. It's beautiful to want. It's beautiful to long for something. It's beautiful to have this elon towards someone else. It's not cringe. But we are so out of practice. And the worse, the more we go on in our society, as is the less practice we have, then you are left with cringe. We want things from the moment we are born. My toy, mine. I'm holding onto it. You know, everyone has wanted that wanting. The owning of the wanting is the definition of desire. It goes with deserving. You can't want if you don't feel worthy of wanting. Entitled in the healthy sense of the word and desiring and all those things have vulnerability to it. They also have boldness to it. They have also, you know, there are mix of qualities that go into it. I think that the cringe is a response to the fact that people are beyond socially atrophied. The thousand touch points, the thousand interactions that we used to have that made us not be so afraid of what people will do to us if we show them the slightest of us is really problematic. And what's ironic about it, when you asked me the question about online and being judged than the transparency, there's the same thing. We've never talked more about authenticity and we've never been more afraid of vulnerability.

[Effy Blue]

Yes. So well said. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, authenticity, by definition, to be true to myself has an element of vulnerability to it.

[Effy Blue]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

Truth is vulnerable. It's a fragile thing, you know, it's not just a rock that stands there. So. So it's an amazing thing that we are speaking from both sides of our mouth. This is a big debate. Should you work on yourself? That's the question, right. Should you be working on yourself and perfect yourself and, you know, all the finishing touches of this very perfect creature here before you can be in a relationship, here's the situation. I have sat with so many people in my office and we work on all kinds of things around self esteem, self worth, fear of rejection, trauma experience, traumatic experiences in your life, all of those things. But once you come in because you're meeting someone, it gets activated. Now I see it in action. Now it's not. We're talking about feelings that live inside of you. Now I see. Now I can intervene. It's like a trainer can sit with me and tell me, you need to position yourself like this, you need to bend your knees. But when I'm not doing anything and I'm sitting on the chair. This is all conceptually very interesting, but the moment I start to practice, when the trainer corrects it, they see it in action. It's happening right alive. It's pregnant with information. It's the same in a relationship. It's both ends. Yes. You need to go and address some of your challenges and the fears that roil inside of you and all of. But in essence, the real moment you will be able to know what to do differently is when you're getting the stimulus and you get to practice the new response. And that's when you are in relationship. I can meet patients for two, three years when they are not dating or they're not actively in relationships. And it's all abstract. The minute they have their eyes on someone, now it's right, amazing. Now it's alive and now we can go and improve.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah. What's the difference between toxic codependence and healthy interdependence?

[Esther Perel]

Toxic codependence, I'm going to give you a word of jargon, but it comes with fusion, it comes with enmeshment. There is nothing that you can experience that I don't have a reaction for. If you're hungry, I either Am also hungry. And then it's okay. Okay. Or if I'm not hungry, it's like, how can you be hungry? What, you cold? It's not cold here. You tired? What do you mean tired? You slept. That it goes on and on like this, where I have a reaction. I don't have any feelings of my own. I don't have a bodily state of my own. I can't tolerate your bodily state being different from my own.

[Effy Blue]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

And we are rubbing constantly rubbing, rubbing, rubbing. There's no. This is futile. We are one. And the only way we deal with our differences is through conflict and toxic friction. Interdependence is what is the normal state of affairs. It's not dependence or independence. We are interdependent creatures, and it is a constant negotiation between. I don't want to go. That upsets you. Of course it will upset you, because you were counting on me. But I'm gonna say no, and you're gonna be upset, and I'm gonna accept that you're upset, and you're gonna accept that I'm gonna go. We are interdependent. This is in a situation where we actually are in disagreement. I need you, but I don't need you to be the missing piece inside of me. I need you because you are something different from me. And that is a part of me that is not as developed. That's the complementarity interdependence is. I'm going to do my thing. And it's really good to know that you are behind me. I could do it without you. But it is so nice to know that you are right there. It's like when somebody says to the other, go do your thing. You got this. You're going out. You're going to go be all alone. You're going on stage. You're all alone. You know, but somebody just said, I'm gonna watch you. You got this. I believe in you. And you take that inside of you.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That goes back to that permanent state we were talking before. The voice of the other lives inside of you as you're going out on your own.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And so you're on your own, but not alone.

[Effy Blue]

Totally. I love that you're making me think of. My wife. Recently did this Hyrox Challenge Challenge. I don't know if you've heard of Hyrax. It's basically like a physical challenge where you run 0.6 miles, then you do five minutes of the ski machine. You run 0.6 miles, and then you do these ball Throws you do. So it's, it's. It's like a one and a half hour minute. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's pretty challenging and it's intense. It's. I, I wasn't going to go out

[Jay Shetty]

because she was going out.

[Effy Blue]

I had some work. I was going to travel, but then opportunity came up for me to be able to go with her, and she was going to go anyway. She was excited about it.

[Esther Perel]

It.

[Effy Blue]

She didn't need me there. But I was like, I really want

[Jay Shetty]

to go see her do it because

[Effy Blue]

I think it'll be fun and it'll be like, I know she's been training. She. You're meant to train for four months. She trained for six weeks.

[Esther Perel]

Wow.

[Effy Blue]

And so I was like, I was excited for her and at the same time my care and concern and I went to watch her and it was that same exact feeling that I had, which was like, I would never do this. Like, I don't want to put myself through this much pain. But you got this. And I'm so excited to be here.

[Jay Shetty]

And it was so beautiful because she was going to do it herself. I wasn't going to go.

[Effy Blue]

I ended up going anywhere because I thought, thought it would be nice, it would be a nice bonding experience. And then afterwards she said to me, she goes, you know what? I didn't think it would matter to me, but it was so nice to see you there. And. And it was so nice every time she ran around that we were there cheering her on and I was holding my sign and. And it was just exactly that moment where I wasn't needed, I wasn't required, I wasn't doing the heavy lifting. She was going to do it anyway. She didn't need me there. But it became a beautiful thing to share together. And I'm so glad I went. Like, I, you know, like, I'm so glad I went.

[Esther Perel]

It's like a marathon.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, it's like that.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

When I go see the marathon, I think this is healthy interdependence.

[Effy Blue]

Y.

[Esther Perel]

You are exerting yourself and doing something I could never do. And I'm cheering you by the sidelines and you're hearing my voice saying, I believe in you. Go, go, go. Push another. It's so we have loads of beautiful small scale and large scale examples of healthy interdependence.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. I love that answer. I wanted to ask you, Esther, it's been 20 years since you wrote Mating in Captivity. It's truly an iconic book, transforming millions and Millions of lives and will continue to do. I wanted to ask you what's been a lesson or a truth that you discovered while writing this book that you think is as true today as it was 20 years ago?

[Esther Perel]

People often have the wish that desire should be spontaneous. It should just happen. It should fall from the heavens while you're folding the laundry like a deus ex machina. And instead of whatever is going to just happen in a relationship, probably already has. It happens because you create it. You preserve it, you nurture it, you value it, you tend to it. You infuse it with ritual, with intentionality, as in the intentional dating with meaning, with creativity, with fun, with playfulness. That's what preserves desire. It's the erotic energy that makes you feel alive, vibrant, vital. That has not changed is to tell people pleasure is cultivated. It's not just something you sit and you're gonna experience pleasure at 11:30 at night when you've done your whole list of chores? No, that is the thing that has stayed very much the same. I think what has changed, I was

[Effy Blue]

gonna ask you is.

[Esther Perel]

I'm really curious about that, too. So many things have changed. Mating was written for couples who were asking, how do you sustain desire in the long haul? What is the relationship between love and desire? Why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex? But the question was, how do you keep it alive? Today so much of the work is about, how do you get it started?

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That dulls the desire. That basically, you know, the comfort, the efficiency, the optimization, the maximization. That the whole machine is killing the bedroom because it is going against all the things that actually fuel desire. So that's the big difference. Another big difference is what you asked before. If you had your first experience at 25. It's a very different story than when you've started at 15 and you meandered through the channels of love and desire. And when you arrive at 25, it's a whole different thing. The dating is not nearly that charged. And you don't have to have intentional. Intentional dating comes after a long practice.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, you don't do a marathon before you've done little runs.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the problem, because that time's lost. We're now doing it later. So there's more rush. Like when I was dating at 15, I wasn't thinking about getting married. But when you're dating at 25 and 30, you are thinking about.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Effy Blue]

So many more serious things.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. You need intentionality because you're thinking not about just I'm gonna have two, three months, six months. What? I'm not even thinking how long it's going to be, but I am certainly not thinking about this is going to land in, you know, a house and a picket fence if we ever get to that.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jay Shetty]

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[Effy Blue]

just make sense for everyday life.

[Jay Shetty]

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[Effy Blue]

certain therapy or TikTok trends that are going on right now. And I want to hear your thoughts on when you hear these things. If you hear clients, people in the therapy room say these things to you,

[Esther Perel]

don't just listen to my thoughts. Watch my body language.

[Effy Blue]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Which, by the way, is way more important than the words we use. This is very important when we talk communication, because all the AIs, it's all words at this point. All the texting, it's words we communicate with so many. 90% of our communication is not through words.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So it's the timber, my voice, my

[Effy Blue]

accent, but we're not experiencing anything.

[Esther Perel]

No, no. My body, my facial expressions. So my thoughts about what you're going to tell me is going to be broader.

[Effy Blue]

Got it? Understood.

[Esther Perel]

Watch me.

[Effy Blue]

So if someone says you, they're always gaslighting me. Everyone's gaslighting me. What's your response? What's your take?

[Esther Perel]

My first question is, what do you mean? So I know what you're talking about. If everyone is gaslighting you, you're probably using the word wrong because that is not the way it works. You know, what do you feel is happening to you? Do you wonder if people have your best interest in mind? Do you think you're being said? Do you think they're lying behind your back? What? Exactly. And then let's name those things and not use therapy speak because it's not helpful to you. If everything has the same name. If every food is called soup, then you don't really know what you're eating.

[Effy Blue]

Well said. I'm getting the ick again.

[Esther Perel]

I want to know what it means to a person. I tend to go to the personal experience. Experience first, but. And then what? What do you want to do with it?

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Do you want to study it, explore it? Do you want to just get rid of it? Do you think that getting rid of it is getting rid of the other person? Do you want to toss? Do you want a ghost? I mean, what do you. What does it tell you? What does it teach you? How can it inform you about what you are, who you are, what you want, and how you experience others? And do you ever ask yourself how much ick you produce in others? So good, because the person who is busy with their ick usually is not thinking that they have an effect on others as well.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, so well said. I'm de centering men right now. Have you heard of this term?

[Esther Perel]

Yes, yes, of course. Of course. I love jargon. I think language is such a rich thing. It breathes alive. It shows you what is going on in the world. You know, centering life because they've been the focus before because I was too busy with men, because I gave them too much power, because I was too much busy making sure I finally with me, you know, it's not a bad thing to do. And what are you putting instead? Where is your center at this moment? And have you valued the other relationships in your life enough? Because often when men have been at the center of your life, you may not have been the best of friend. You may have constantly canceled on your friends because you had a date because you were going to go and meet a potential man mate. I would love it if you decentered the men. But that you actually reinforce the centering of your friendships, of your creative partnerships, of your mentorships, of your co worker relationships. We have a lot of other relationships. They are so important. They exist together in one ecology with our intimate romantic relationships. Not this one is here and all the rest is there.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I need to find an energetic match.

[Esther Perel]

Keep going. I'm not answering.

[Jay Shetty]

Okay. Yeah, I need to find an energetic match.

[Effy Blue]

I'm looking for a high value woman. I feel triggered. This isn't a safe space for me.

[Jay Shetty]

I'm not sure if we have a

[Effy Blue]

lot in common or if we just trauma bonded. We just don't have the spark. I don't feel seen, Effy.

[Esther Perel]

So when you listen to this list, what does does it bring up for you as a whole? You know, what do you read in this?

[Effy Blue]

I feel like we found terms to simplify experiences so that we can connect with others, so that we can say, me too. I went through that as well. Right.

[Jay Shetty]

It's easier if I say to you,

[Effy Blue]

hey Esther, you know, like I'm dating a narcissist. It's easy for someone else to say, me too. I think I went out with one of those too. And now we connect and so we're not doing it with a bad intent. I don't think there's a misintend, but it creates this connection which is what I think we're deeply seeking for. At the same time, there are very serious things that need labels and need language so that we can make sense of them. When we're struggling or dealing with something so that it's diagnosed, we actually know what's going on. What ultimately I'm seeing is a need to control. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I wasn't going to say that, but yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What were you going to say?

[Jay Shetty]

I was going to say that I think there's, at the core that just

[Effy Blue]

feels in need to see and be seen, like to actually just make sense of our experience and hopefully for someone to say, me too, of course we

[Esther Perel]

want to be seen. But I will ask again, are you looking, Are you attempting to see others, or are you just busy with the reflection on yourself? But next thing is when I say that a relationship is more than just the feeling. A relationship is an encounter with another. It involves ethics. And that ethics is about responsibility and accountability. And that is missing here. It's what are you doing for me? Are you giving me the safety I need? Are you giving me the spark I need? Are you providing? And this is romantic consumerism in which those aspects, not that the items themselves are not super important, but the approach to it. What makes you feel not safe? What makes you doubt the quality of the bonding? Yes. People have often connected because they had shared loss, shared grief, shared experiences of destruction, of natural disasters, of wars, of displacement. Of course. I mean, why does that have to be called trauma bonding per se? You know, there may have been something traumatic in it, but there is also. Maybe we bonded on our experience of revival. We bonded on how we process these experiences. We bonded on the meaning that we gave to all these losses. And we recognize that strength that we each have. It's all negative. It all wants to have no ripples to be polished. You know, that's the simplification. And I think relationships are way richer, more layered, more nuanced, more complex than the kind of. That's the motion that I see. You know, make it smooth.

[Effy Blue]

Absolutely. So. Right. Esther, these are your final five, brought to you by State Farm. These questions have to be answered in one sentence.

[Esther Perel]

My challenge.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Effy Blue]

So this is your challenge. So what's a hard truth about love that most people don't want to hear?

[Esther Perel]

Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm. It is a verb. It demands action and agency on your part, and you will be surprised how tenacious it actually is. It's incredible how when we love someone, a friend, a child, a parent, a partner, we will accept and see things with other glasses. And. And that's why it is so powerful to be the recipient of it, because we will up and the love of others will help us stand back up.

[Effy Blue]

Question number two. Is love enough in a relationship?

[Esther Perel]

No. But you can all subsume them under love as well. You talked about respect before admiration. I think admiration is essential. It's beyond care. Love can keep. Love can destroy. No, love is a. There is no life without love for Us. But it is a complex emotion and no, it needs to be augmented by a lot of things. Love is a raw ingredient. It's like the food you have in the fridge now. Decide what you want to cook, what you want to eat, who you want to eat it with and how you want to serve it.

[Effy Blue]

I like that a lot. That's a great. That's a great visual there. Question number three. What do you think more people should ask themselves before they get married?

[Esther Perel]

Is this a person I can make a life with? There are love stories and life stories, and there are lots of people you can love, but they're not necessarily the people with whom you can create a project of life. In French, they call it un projet. It's a very beautiful concept. And before you get married, it's that. Can I imagine a life with you that's going to involve a lot of different things, moves and changes and losses and additions in our families and stuff like that? Can I see all of that with you? That's where it's beyond love. You can love someone that is not necessarily going to be the best partner for you or you feel for them the feeling. The Ramatin is great for a love story. This is the life story, be it marriage or commitment of any sort.

[Effy Blue]

Great answer. Last two questions.

[Esther Perel]

My sentences are.

[Effy Blue]

These are great.

[Jay Shetty]

No, they're perfect.

[Effy Blue]

These are perfect.

[Esther Perel]

They have come us.

[Effy Blue]

They are perfect. They're perfect. Last two questions. Question number four. If someone's had their heart broken, what's the one thing you'd want them to remember in that moment?

[Esther Perel]

You can choose. Choose in your life if you want to lead with your wounds or with your scars. You can choose to put the focus on the fact that your heart was broken and the wounds that come with it. But those wounds will become scars and the scars will be the proof that you have loved. And that would make you so much more attractive. If you've had your heart broken, it means your heart was fixed. And I think that there is something beautiful in leading from the scars. It means I have lived, I have experienced, I've had relationships, I have loved, I have been loved, and I have also had my heart broken.

[Effy Blue]

Fifth and final question. Can you ever truly get over someone?

[Esther Perel]

Oh, yes. What does it mean to get over? To get over someone who hurt you? To get over. To forget someone. Can you get over someone? Yes. Yes. Yes. And you won't forget them, but they will take a different place on your shelves and they may actually be in the back of the shelf and certain things happen. And suddenly you remember them. Oh, that I used to experience with my ex partner. But then they go back to the shelf and they take their real estate diminishes. Their impact diminishes. You are beginning to be able to remember them without relief. So you can tell a story that is a memory without having the entire activation of as if you were reliving it. So they become a memory. And that is what it means to get over someone is not to forget about them. It's not to pretend they never existed is they become a memory. And sometimes it's a bad memory, but it lives in the recesses. It's not right.

[Effy Blue]

Esther Perel, I'm so grateful that you came back on the show today. Celebrating 20 years of baiting in captivity. I'm so grateful to always have you

[Esther Perel]

on the show and celebrating first year of Substack. It's a place to gather.

[Effy Blue]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

The work, from the podcast to the writings to the exercises to the notes to the afterthoughts. So it's a place for consolidation. It's a great platform to be joining. And so. So it's an interesting thing because I'm saying not goodbye to this, but I'm saying, wow, we've lived together a long time. I'm ready to start a new relationship.

[Effy Blue]

I love it. Well, I'm excited to dive into the substack as well. And I hope you come back onto the show for many more years to help us to really understand where we are as a society and kind of get a bird's eye view. I think you have this amazing ability to help us transcend the noise and the conversation that sometimes fills up our feed and allow us to view it from a different standpoint. I think whenever I talk to you, I feel like a portal in my mind opens up. That often you thought there was only A or B, and somehow you find a Z to open up in the sky.

[Esther Perel]

What's the Z you heard today?

[Effy Blue]

Today the Z, I would say for me was the question. I mean, there's so many things I can think about right now. I'll pin up a few of them. So the first one I'd say is that the question you asked the A, AI, the question that you asked, so what will you do when he falls in love with another woman? Like, that's such a humanizing question to AI, which is not to a business product. To a business product. And I find that to be the uniqueness in really extrapolating how these things function and what they say and whether it's Performative vulnerability or whether it's not like even you asking a human question to a non human entity is, is fascinating to me because I think we still treat it like a bit of a assistant and an order supplier and not really we, most of us are not at least treating it as human. I feel another one that really stood out to me today was when I asked you about Gen Z and how most of them don't have access to each. Are not talking to each other or not approaching people. You explaining and you sharing that like that's actually come from just this social change of connection. It's not even dating. Like we think it's a love issue and a dating issue, but really what you're bringing it back to is saying, well that's just a social issue. We're just bad at connecting with people in general. And we started talking about zoom and facetime and the lack of eye contact and these sound like obvious things. But it's become so normalized to look at someone through a screen that it's so easy to forget that this is what we do and this is what we did.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Effy Blue]

And it's.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. So it's, it's interesting how quickly the

[Effy Blue]

new norm becomes normalized and how we forget that looking at someone in the eyes is different to looking at someone through a screen.

[Jay Shetty]

And how for many people who grew

[Effy Blue]

up looking at people through a screen, they'll never even know what this was in advance. And so I think there's lots to. And for me the big revelation that came out of that conversation was just how people are so scared of being their. Their life being broadcast to other people. And your point of constantly being under surveillance. How can you be vulnerable if you're constantly under surveillance? How can you be authentic if you're constantly under surveillance? The point of love was to be enjoying someone's company in the privacy of your home or in the privacy and the comfort of being a confidant of someone. That's what love is like. Love isn't performative and on a stage, but that's what it feels like now that love is on a stage of the person and their friends, the person and their family. And that. That feels exploitative and it feels like how can you ever. So I, I think a big part of it is also the worry for people to miss out on connection that comes from that. So anyway, so many things, I mean, I'm sure when I listen to the episode again, a million other things. But I'm grateful for you always opening up new visions and new spaces. So thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. It's fun.

[Jay Shetty]

If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll love

[Effy Blue]

my episode with the world's leading relationship

[Jay Shetty]

therapy therapist, Esther Perel, where we talk about why your ego is ruining your relationships and how to date more effectively.

[Esther Perel]

I think we need to differentiate. Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or are you looking for chemistry for a life story?

[Jay Shetty]

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[Esther Perel]

Guaranteed Human.