Jay’s Must-Listens: Are You Still Holding Onto Childhood Trauma? (Follow 3 Steps & FINALLY Heal) Ft. Gabor Mate & Oprah Winfrey

Summary

Podcast Summary:

On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Episode: Jay’s Must-Listens: Are You Still Holding Onto Childhood Trauma? (Follow 3 Steps & FINALLY Heal)
Guests: Dr. Gabor Maté, John Legend, Oprah Winfrey, Dr. Bruce Perry, Anita
Release Date: October 1, 2025
Duration: ~45 minutes

EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this special episode, Jay Shetty brings together wisdom from some of his most impactful guests to explore the enduring marks of childhood trauma and the practical steps to initiate healing. Through personal stories and expert analysis, Dr. Gabor Maté, John Legend, Oprah Winfrey, Dr. Bruce Perry, and Anita reflect on the hidden forms of trauma, the emotional cost of suppression, generational wounds, and the transformative shift from self-blame to self-compassion. The conversations offer insight, validation, and actionable guidance for anyone seeking to break cycles of pain and rediscover inner wholeness.

---

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. The Ubiquity and Hidden Nature of Trauma

• Trauma leaves a mark even if unseen.
  • Many live with inexplicable pain, anxious responses, or emotional disconnection tied to unresolved childhood events (01:31).
  • Trauma is not always explosive; it may manifest as pleasing, overachievement, or emotional withdrawal.

2. Suppressing the Self for Acceptance (Gabor Maté)

• The High Cost of Hiding:

  • Dr. Gabor Maté: “When you hide who you really are to survive your childhood, that survival can turn into lifelong trauma…it can show up later as anxiety, chronic illness, or disconnection in relationships.” (03:15)
  • Burying emotions early is correlated with higher incidences of depression and addiction.

• Pain is Unavoidable, But Its Nature Can Change:

  • “You’re going to have pain one way or the other. Which pain would you like?” (04:04)
  • Suppressing oneself brings chronic, enduring pain; being authentic, despite temporary discomfort, offers liberation (04:08–05:16).

Notable Exchange:

• Dr. Maté: “At the end of the day, the pain of not being ourselves ultimately is by far the greater and more chronic pain. The short-term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and genuine independence.” (04:08)

• On Individualism vs. Individuation:

  • True healing is about “being truly yourself and still belong[ing], still vulnerably desiring human contact.” (06:52–07:25)

3. Challenging the Hierarchy of Trauma

• No Pain Olympics:
  • Comparing traumas is unhelpful—trauma means “a wound” and people are wounded in many ways.
  • “It’s not a helpful game to play…It wouldn’t be helpful for me to tell you that, oh, what are you worried about, there’s people with broken arms out there.” – Dr. Maté (10:01–11:58)

---

4. Grieving Without Closure (John Legend)

• Loss is Not to Be “Solved” But Seen:
  • John Legend opens up on losing a child: “We'll remember it. There’ll be times when we’ll feel those pangs of memory…It doesn’t mean you can’t heal…but that grief will still be a part of who you are.” (13:14)
  • Healing is living alongside the brokenness rather than seeking to erase it.

Notable Quote:

• John Legend: “Let your broken heart learn to live in pieces.” (12:00–13:14)
• On growing together through pain: “You have to commit to working through pain…I think we both committed to doing the work to get through it.” (15:33)

---

5. Redefining and Recognizing Trauma (Oprah Winfrey & Dr. Bruce Perry)

• Trauma Is Not Just “Big T” Events:

  • Oprah: “It was the consistent little things, the aggressions and microaggressions…that cause them to have their own worldview…Trauma doesn’t have to have a great big old capital T on it.” (20:18–22:45)
  • Emotional neglect is as toxic as active harm.

• From Self-Blame to Contextual Understanding:

  • Switch the question from “What’s wrong with me?” to “What happened to me?”
  • Oprah: “That question can completely transform how we see ourselves and how we heal.” (19:23–25:12)

Notable Reflection:

• Oprah shares her “aha” moment: Internalizing the principle of asking what happened rather than blaming or labeling (25:12–28:06).

---

6. Personal Testimony: Effects of Childhood Trauma (Oprah)

• Normalization Can Mask Trauma:
  • Oprah’s story of being whipped as a child—didn’t see it as trauma until adulthood; realized it fueled lifelong anxiety around confrontation and extreme people-pleasing (30:49–33:38).
  • Moment of insight: “Even though I had the power, I still felt that every confrontation, I was gonna get a whipping.” (32:42)

---

7. Generational and Inherited Trauma (Anita & Dr. Maté)

• Carrying What Isn’t Ours:
  • Anita’s irrational fear of losing everything traced back to her mother’s anxiety during pregnancy (35:55–39:38).
  • Recognition that generational wounds can be energetically and biochemically transmitted, but also healed.

Notable Moment:

• Anita’s birthday party was held at the building where her father lost his job while her mother was pregnant with her. A literal “full-circle” healing (39:38-40:03).

---

8. Takeaways & Steps for Healing

• Awareness is Liberation:

  • “The moment you begin to understand [your trauma], you’ve already begun to heal.” (41:57)

• Healing is described as a journey of:

  1. Self-reflection (“What am I carrying?”)
  2. Tracing origins (“Where did it come from?”)
  3. Choosing to let go (“What would it look like to let it go?”)

• Final Wisdom:

  • “Everything in nature grows only where it’s vulnerable…a tree doesn’t grow where it’s hard and thick; it grows where it’s soft and green and vulnerable.” – Dr. Maté (43:48)

---

TIMESTAMPS & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• 01:31 – Introduction to trauma, its prevalence and how it hides
• 03:07–07:25 – Dr. Gabor Maté on the pain of self-suppression, individuation vs. individualism
• 09:45–11:58 – Trauma hierarchy is unhelpful; all wounds need tending
• 13:14–16:09 – John Legend on loss, grief, and growing as a couple after tragedy
• 20:18–22:45 – Oprah reframes trauma, discussing microaggressions and emotional neglect
• 25:12–28:06 – The power of “What happened to you?” instead of “What’s wrong with you?”
• 30:49–34:38 – Oprah’s realization of lifelong people-pleasing rooted in childhood beatings and silence
• 35:55–40:03 – Anita uncovers inherited anxiety and the process of releasing generational trauma
• 43:48 – Dr. Maté: “Everything in nature grows only where it’s vulnerable.”

---

CONCLUSION

This episode masterfully weaves together scientific insight, personal vulnerability, and spiritual reflection to dismantle myths about trauma and offer real hope for healing. Trauma’s mark is universal, but so is the potential for growth and freedom. The panel’s stories and advice remind us: We are not broken—often, we are carrying pain that isn’t truly ours. Awareness, compassion, and conscious action—whether through therapy, self-inquiry, or healing relationships—can help us transform suffering into strength and connection.

---

For Further Exploration:

• Dr. Gabor Maté on healing trauma
• Oprah & Dr. Bruce Perry’s book What Happened to You?

---

“The journey is so delicious. That’s where all the good stuff is. You just can’t live and die by the end result.” — Oprah Winfrey (45:00)

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Lex Borrero]

Welcome to the youe vs you podcast. I'm Lex Borrero inviting you to go beyond the titles and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers. Each week we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories and the moments that shaped our guests. Get inspired to become the best version of you. Listen to youo vs you podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

[Radhi Devlukia]

I'm Radhi Devlukia and I'm the host of a really good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Urie. If you're out there trying to date right now, being ghosted on Hinge, or want to create a dating profile that gives you a solid chance of matching with someone you actually want to go on a date with, then this episode with Hinge's director of relationship science, Logan Urie is definitely for you.

[Anita]

Relationships do require work. The best relationships are people who really work on them together.

[Radhi Devlukia]

Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do we really need another podcast with a condescending finance bro trying to tell us how to spend our own money? No thank you. Instead, check out Brown Ambition. Each week I your host Mandy Money gives you real talk, real advice with a heavy dose of I feel uses. Like on Fridays when I take your questions for the baqa. Whether you're trying to invest for your future, navigate a toxic workplace, I got you. Listen to Brown ambition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

The first lesson of trauma is that it always leaves a mark, even if you can't see it. If you've ever asked yourself, why do I react like this? Why does this sadness feel deeper than it should? Why do I carry a pain I can't explain? Then this episode is for you. 70% of adults in the US have experienced at least one traumatic event in in their lives. But trauma isn't always loud. Sometimes it looks like overachieving people pleasing or even emotional shutdown. 61% of patients with first episode depression and 51% with recurring depression reported childhood or recent trauma. But here's the good news. You can literally rewire your your body's relationship to the trauma it carries. So today we go deeper to understand what trauma really is, how it hides, and what it takes to finally heal. You're going to hear from Dr. Gabor Mate on the emotional cost of hiding who you are. John Legend on grieving without closure. Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Perry on the power of Rethinking trauma. And and Anita on Inherited wounds and generational fear. Here's the lesson. You're not broken. You're carrying something that was never meant to be yours to begin with. Let's get into it.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

The number one health and wellness podcast, Jay Shetty.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Jay Shetty, the one, the Only Jay Shetty.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Dr. Gabor Mate delivers a powerful truth. When you hide who you really are to survive your childhood, that survival can turn into lifelong trauma. That suppression can show up later as anxiety, chronic illness or disconnection in your relationships. For example, nearly 80% of autoimmune patients report a significant emotional stressor before onset. Studies show that burying our emotions early on can increase our chances of developing depression or or addictive behaviors in adulthood. The good news is that suppression doesn't have to be permanent. Healing isn't about changing who you are. It's about coming back to the parts of yourself you had to leave behind.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

I often say to people, you're going to have pain one way or the other.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yes.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Which pain would you like? Because sometimes in life there's no pain free options. You can have the pain of suppressing yourself for the sake of being accepted, or you can have the pain sometimes of being yourself and not being accepted. You can have pain one way or the other. Now, I have my own bias that the pain of not being ourselves ultimately is by far the greater and more chronic pain and that the pain, the short term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and genuine independence, which means I can have genuinely independent relationships with other people who are willing to accept me as independent. You know, but in the short term, which pain do you want? Not. There's no pain free option, you know.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. For sure. That you reminded me of this beautiful idea that Thich Nhat Hanh shares, that there's familiar pain and unfamiliar pain. And these are our two choices. And the challenge is we're so scared of unfamiliar pain.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

That we would rather choose familiar pain.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

And go through the same pain. Because we know how it's going to feel.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Exactly.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

And we think. Or at least I'm aware. At least I am conscious of how bad it can get.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Exactly.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

But hearing you speak, being independent or being dependent both has pain.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

And. But the pain of dependence far outweighs the pain of independence.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Well, just put a bit of a nuance in there. Ultimately. I mean, I mean, Thich Nhatran also talk about inter being, how we all inter are. So in a certain Sense. We do depend on each other, you know, and that's okay. The question is, do we depend on each other authentically or inauthentically? The fact that I'm independent doesn't mean that I'm not going to reach out for help or that I won't offer it, but it does mean that I will be honest with you and I won't pretend to be somebody else that I'm not, so that you'll accept me, you know, so there's an interesting word difference between two phrases that sound very familiar. One is called individualism, and the other is called individuation. Now, rugged individualism is I don't need anybody, and, you know, it's me against the world. And this is the North American capitalist ideal, you know? Well, human beings never would have evolved had there been those rugged individualists. The rugged individuals wouldn't last more than one generation. But individuated means that we can be ourselves, truly ourselves, in genuine relationship with others. Not rugged individualists. I mean, the most boring people are rugged individuals because they all look the same, you know, so. So you can be individuated and be truly yourself and still belong and still vulnerably desire human contact, you know?

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think there's a lot of rhetoric around, well, don't care what anyone else thinks, and it doesn't matter. And you just do your own thing. And it's almost. That's almost a bitter response as well, because we do have to care what people think. If we lived in a world where you didn't care what anyone thought. Yeah, it wouldn't be that healthy because we would do all sorts of obscene, horrific things.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

I'd face it differently.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

I'm intrigued. Yeah, I'm intrigued.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Yeah. I don't care what anybody thinks, but I do care what I do and how it affects other people, you know, so there's another spiritual teacher, gunnarotana. He wrote a book called Mindfulness in Plain English, which I've just been working through recently. And he's talking about a higher morality that comes from being true to yourselves and in touch. And he says, well, you don't need rules anymore, because it's like St. Augustine said, love and do what you will. So if you actually love the world, you don't have to give yourself rules, because that love will dictate how you'll act towards other people. I can't worry about what other people think. Look, if I worried about what other people think, I would not have written any of My books. Because each of my books challenge the reigning orthodoxy in, say, medicine or whether it's around attention deficit or stress and disease or addictions. And every time I write a book, I'm saying something that I'm not saying that I invented it, but that I've come to understand and fervently believe and want to communicate. But I can't worry about what other people think or when I make a political statement. I'm responsible for what I say, how I say it, but not what other people think about it. But that doesn't mean that I can ignore other people's experience. So as long as my intention is purely to speak a truth, and I do so with integrity, I can't worry about what other people think. I can't. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna go around just doing terrible things. Because I don't care what you think, as long as I'm convinced that what I do, if I've done that kind of inventory, and I haven't always, but if I do an inventory about, well, what is my intention here?

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Is there a hierarchy of pain or hierarchy of trauma?

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

What do you mean by hierarchy?

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

I feel like people feel like, well, this trauma is worse than this trauma and this trauma is better than this one. We often hear about that as a conversation. Is that accurate?

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

So one could say so, because if you look at a child who say sexually abused, as opposed to a child whose parents just can't honor and accept and validate their emotions, well, my God, you're talking about two different set of experiences. So that this certainly horrific things happen to some people to wound them, and other people suffer wounds in a very different way. But the question is, is it useful to make that distinction? It's one thing to recognize it, but let's say, let's say you are my four year old, you come to me and you say that I'm afraid of so and so. And I say, snap out of it. Only cowards are afraid. And then, get out of here, take care of yourself. And then you went to your mom and said, I tried to talk to daddy, but you know, would it be helpful for your mother to say, oh, snap out of it. Think of all the kids that are being sexually abused. Think of all the starving kids. Think all the kids that are being bombed. What are you complaining about? Would that be helpful? No. So that it's not a helpful game to play. I don't compare people's traumas. Trauma simply means a wound and people are wounded in all kinds of ways. But when I try to help people, the least helpful thing I can do is to tell them that somebody else's trauma is much worse than mine, much worse than yours. So objectively, yes, practically, it's not a helpful distinction. People are wounded and you have to tend to the wound, whatever it is. If you came to me with a cut on your arm and you asked me to stitch it up, it wouldn't be helpful for me to tell you that, oh, what are you worried about? There's people with broken arms out there or people with broken. You know. So, no, it's not a helpful thing to engage in. Even though there's truth in it.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. In this next conversation, John Legend opens up about the intensely personal loss of losing a child and how he and Chrissy didn't avoid the pain, but rather walked it together. One in four pregnancies ends in miscarriage. I've had so many friends and family members over the last 12 months tell me about that in their experience. Yet the silence around pregnancy loss can be just as painful as the loss itself. John's story is a reminder for us all. Grief isn't something that can be solved. It just needs to be seen. The point isn't to get over it. The point is to get through it without losing the love, the honesty, and the connection that makes you whole. You mentioned grief and the new. The song Pieces in the new album. There's. There's the beautiful lyric, let your broken heart learn to live in pieces. And I just. I literally just haven't stopped thinking about that because I think that there's so much about us that's constantly trying to get everything to fit. And even with a heart, we're trying to become whole again. Like, there's always that concept, but you're like, let your broken heart learn to live in pieces. Like, where did that come from? Like, that idea.

[John Legend]

Well, the idea of the song is that we never completely shed or forget this trauma that we may go through in life, this loss, this heartbreak. Like, we'll remember it. There'll be times when we'll feel those pangs of memory, that it'll come back. It doesn't mean you can't heal. It doesn't mean you can't recover. But it does mean that that grief will. Will still be a part of who you are, a part of your story. Effectively recovering from that means not forgetting it. Not that it didn't happen, but learning to live with it and learning to continue to live with it and experience life and joy and pain and all the things that come in life afterwards continue to, like, live on.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah.

[John Legend]

Despite the fact that this grief won't ever leave you completely.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. It's almost. It's almost like we're asking the wrong question. We're always like, how do I move on? How do I get over this? And you're saying, well.

[John Legend]

And you're saying you're gonna. I'm saying you're gonna carry it. It's part of your life now. It's part of your story, part of who you are. Like I said with Chrissy, like, I've seen so much growth through our grief and through our tragedy. It's always going to be part of who we are, and I'm fine with that. Like, it's part of who we are. It's. We carry it with us. And. And it's okay.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. And that. And I'm sorry for your loss. And I'm like, you know that. I mean, I don't think there's pretty much anything harder to go through than. Than what you.

[John Legend]

Yeah. I've never been through anything harder. But it just means, you know, when you live long enough, you're going to go through something like that and figuring out how to continue to live as you carry that with you.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah.

[John Legend]

Is. Is what the song is really about.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. And often we find that those traumatic and difficult experiences can break people apart. But you. You. You focus on growing closer together. Yeah. What do you think is that difference? Like, your values are so clear. I can tell in this interview, I'm like, values of children, a family of. Of love, of kindness, of connection. Like, how do you. In moments like that, is it that your values just drive you forward? Or, like, how do you make sure? Because I think sometimes people just have experiences that derail their. Everything else that's going. Right.

[John Legend]

Yeah. And I don't know, because, like, I think part of it is just. We are. We were already on a great foundation where we really respected and loved and enjoyed being with each other. Respect each other's values and the ways, you know, the things we saw in each other's character that we fell in love with were still there. But I think you also have to, like, commit to working through pain, you know, And I think we both committed to doing it, like, doing the work that we needed to do to get through it.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. No, I'm happy to hear that. And, you know, my prayers and thank you because.

[John Legend]

Yeah. And I think having already had two kids together was definitely helpful because they just bring so much joy into our lives and laughter and fun, and they're a great focus for our energy. And so even when you're going through deep grief on losing a pregnancy, you still have these two beautiful babies that you love. And I think that was certainly helpful.

[Lex Borrero]

Welcome to the youe versus you podcast. I'm Lex Barrero and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that make them who they are. We go deep, exploring childhood trauma, family overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be like harder. But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden.

[Lex Borrero]

Is it wrong to want more?

[Oprah Winfrey]

We migrated.

[Lex Borrero]

Our family migrated here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm like second generation.

[Lex Borrero]

Listen to youo versus you as part of Michael Tuda Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Radhi Devlukia]

I'm Radhi Devlukia and I'm the host of a really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Urie. Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best selling author, and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating that Logan has studied and tested, from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using, to the conversation starters that actually work, and the huge no nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps. Whether you're single dating or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need.

[Anita]

Relationships do require work, and the best relationships are people who really work on them together. They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, they then I'll have the perfect relationship. Instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together, they don't need to keep searching for perfection.

[Radhi Devlukia]

Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Legend]

When news broke earlier this year that baby kj, a newborn in Philadelphia, had successfully received the world's first personalized gene editing treatment, it represented a milestone for both researchers and patients. But there's a gripping tale of discovery behind this accomplishment and its creators. I'M Evan Ratliff, and together with biographer Walter Isaacson, we're delving into the story of Nobel Prize winner Jennifer Doudna, the.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity.

[John Legend]

Listen to on crispr, the Story of Jennifer Doudna with Walter isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Next we'll HEAR Oprah and Dr. Perry, who challenge what we think trauma should look like. You don't need a violent or dramatic event to be traumatized. Neglect, lack of validation, or emotional absence can be just as damaging. In fact, emotional neglect is one of the most common and overlooked forms of trauma. Oprah reframes the question for people exploring their own traumatic history. From what's wrong with me to what happened to me, that small shift, that one question can completely transform how we see ourselves and how we heal. What do you think was something that you misunderstood or had an incomplete understanding of about trauma that has now become more complete or more deep?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ooh, what a great question, Jay. I thought trauma prior to my conversations with Bruce in doing this book. I thought trauma had to be a big, gigantic thing experience. You had to go through a tsunami, literally, if not literally a tsunami, a tsunami like crisis in your life. A fire, a hurricane, a tragedy, a car accident, a stabbing. Somebody died. And it was through co authoring this book with him that I understood that it was the consistent little things. It was the aggressions and microaggressions in a person's life that causes them to have their own worldview. Whatever that worldview is for you is different from me. So the biggest learning for me is that trauma doesn't have to have a great big old capital T on it. It's really how you were loved. And that neglect and trauma are hand in hand because both are equally as toxic. And so I had always, you know, just like you with your millions of listeners, I over the years of interviewing people, it was my greatest classroom. I was always paying attention to what people were saying and paying attention to their lives. And what I understood and could articulate, not through science but just through my own observation, is that, oh, people are as dysfunctional, as unhappy, as disoriented in their lives based on how far they are from the center of themselves. And the center is where wholeness lies, as you know. And so where there is no center and there is no sense of wholeness and love for yourself, there's going to.

[Anita]

Be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Disarray, chaos, confusion, and, you know, dysfunction in your life. And I saw that over and over and over again that people behave based on how they were loved and then how they were able to process that in a way to love other people. And so Bruce just gave me the science for that. What this book did is gave me the science for it.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

I love that. I think it's a brilliant distinction between, you know, what we think is trauma and what trauma can be for all of us. I have one last question I wanted to ask you before we dive in to the conversation with Dr. Bruce Perry. It's this idea. You've interviewed so many influential, successful people and people of all different backgrounds and walks of life, and so often their success is actually built on their trauma. And so their success doesn't often satisfy them. What have you seen has been that transition? When they go beyond their success, they heal their trauma to actually find true success for themselves.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is deep, layered, complex question. So this is what I. This is what many layers to that? What I realize is that if you come into success and fame, in particularly fame, because fame is its own world in definition, because it really is based upon what other people think of you. Because fame isn't what you think of yourself, it's what other people think of you. If you come into that and you don't have a grounded, centered self, you will be controlled by the outside instead of the inside. And if you come into that not in the fullness of knowing who you are and what you're supposed to do with that fame, whenever somebody likes you or doesn't like you, that determines whether or not you're having a good day or a bad day and you have lost control of your own life. So I think what fame teaches you quickly is to grow the wholeness within yourself so that you're not controlled by others outside opinions of you.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

That is a beautiful answer. And I think it will resonate with so many because so many of us are on that journey to be successful or be famous or be rich or whatever it may be. But to hear it from that perspective is truly refreshing. I want to ask you both this first question to start with is why is it so important to make this switch from us thinking what is wrong with you to what happened to you?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, let me answer that because I first came across this question of what happened to you when I was doing an interview with Dr. Proust Berry a couple of years ago for 60 Minute Story. I was doing. Now, I've known Dr. Perry for over 30 years. I first started interviewing him in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s, on the Oprah show when we were talking about raising children and how important it is those first zero to six years. So I've been hearing about what it means to nurture and support the brain. Early on, it wasn't until that conversation a couple of years ago. I don't know whether I think it's because of where I was in my life at the time. I opened a school in South Africa. I've had these wonderful, brilliant girls who come from traumatic backgrounds, grow up, and have really serious mental health issues. And I was trying to, at the time, figure out, what are we doing wrong at our school? Something's really wrong here. And in that interview with Dr. Perry, he said, you know, most people ask the question, when kids are not behaving the way you want them to behave or what's wrong with them, we really should be asking about what's happened to you. And something went, aha, aha, aha. In my brain. It was like a major moment. Like, I got it in a way that I hadn't received it before. And I realized that it's not just for children that you ask that question, but it's really everybody. And that moment, Bruce, as I've said to you many times, Dr. Perry, and changed the way I saw my relationships, how I saw my own life, how I interacted with people, and even in politics, where it was so crazy in the past four years, and everybody's always talking about, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong? I would always say, I wonder what happened to that person. I wonder what happened to them younger that caused them to be this way. So all of the labels that you just gave Jay, there's a world of labels. There is, you know, overachiever. There's, you know, obsessive compulsive moms, soccer moms. There is the desire to, you know, please people all the time. There's a multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple labels that refer back to what happened to us. And so I will just say this. One of the things that Bruce says in the book. Each of us comes into the world with our own worldview, and that worldview is actually shaped from the crib. And you get from the world what you project into the world. And you project into the world what you were raised with and what you were raised around. So that's why what happened to you is the essential question.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

So beautifully said. And I wish my brain had aha. Moments that sound like that. Oprah, too. So I love that. And, Dr. Perry, I'd love to hear your Thoughts?

[Dr. Bruce Perry]

Well, I come at this from a slightly different perspective because I have a long history of being a history fan and had studied history growing up and was very well aware of the relationship between the things that happened in the past playing a major role in how things were functioning currently. And I think that that's. I think most people are able to kind of make that connection. But as I became a biologist and learned about the development of the human body and the human brain, it became clear that we have our own personal history and that the things that happened in our life shape the systems in our brain that influence how we think about things, how we feel about things, and how we behave. And it really leads to a completely different approach to getting to know somebody. You enter the interaction with a curious mindset. You're curious about, like what's going on. I mean, and it really, I think, is, as Oprah says, it really opens up this new perspective on understanding a person. You can be much more empathic with them as opposed to being so judgmental.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. For me, that reframing that you both have so beautifully illuminated in this book is so subtle, but it's so powerful because it removes that judgment. It removes that negative observation, that criticism, that fear that people feel on the receiving end of that as well. To me, just that switch of question is so powerful. And you know, when I was diving into the book, there were moments where I just, I was so grateful to you for what you shared. And you know, you open up about a story about how your grandmother used to whip you over the smallest, most insignificant things, like spilling a glass of water and this harsh. Right, exactly. Breaking a plate and this harsh, this harsh behavior was normal for you as a kid. And you said something in the book that really stood out to me. You said that the long term impact of being whipped turned you into a world class people pleaser for most of your life. I want to know, how did you become aware of that connection between that experience as a child and how it was being lived today? And how did that start to help you on your journey?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, thank you so much. I'm so moved that you were touched by that story because I, until I was a full grown adult and I met my best friend. Gail Gayle is the first black person I ever met who wasn't whipped as a child. I mean, she was the first person I ever encountered. So it is a part of the black culture to not just spank your children. Almost everybody you run into of a certain age was whipped as a child. So that was Such the norm for me that writing about it for the first time is the first time I actually recognize, oh, this is not a normal thing. So to really. I was in a boardroom having to confront someone in my 40s, and I had so much anxiety about the fact that I was gonna have to have this confrontation with somebody. Just the most normal disagreements would cause me a great sense of angst and worry and, oh, my God, and what's gonna happen? And I just said, where is this coming from? Why am I so afraid when I am the one in the power seat? I am Oprah Winfrey running the Harpo Studios. My name's spelled backwards. I'm the person in charge. And in order to have a disagreement with somebody, I go through so much angst. And I realized, Jay, that even though I had the power, I still felt that every confrontation, I was gonna get a whipping, that a whipping was gonna result. That thing that used to come up inside me when I had to walk to get my own switch. Oh, where is this feeling coming? I'm feeling like in every confrontation, I'm gonna get a whipping, and at the end of it, that person's gonna be mad at me. And at the end of it, that person's gonna say, you better not act like you're mad. You know, all the things that happened to me as a kid. So it wasn't until I was a full grown adult in my own seat of perceived power, feeling those feelings of anxiety and anxiousness, having to have the slightest bit of confrontation. So what I say in what happened to me is that being beaten as a child, having to be subservient to other people's ideals of what it means to be a child, meaning you are seen and not heard. So I've grown up to have this big personality. But being raised in an environment where children are seen and not heard, and your opinions do not matter. So what happened to me taught me that my opinions do not matter. Keep your opinions to yourself and do whatever you can to please other people so that other people will like you, so that other people will not be upset with you. And I will have to tell you, it is also for me, not for everybody else, but for me. One of the reasons why I was so susceptible to sexual abuse, because I had been taught and trained not to speak up for myself, that whatever somebody wanted to do who was older than me or in a position of authority, that they had rights that I did not. So that what happened to me was ingrained in a way that literally caused me to be A major people pleaser for a great deal of my life.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Thank you for sharing that full journey. And just. I really gravitate towards that statement you said around how when we normalize something, we don't actually even recognize the trauma in it. We don't even realize that there's anything. It was just normal to you. You just expected it. Did you know that maternal stress during pregnancy can increase the child's risk of illness by up to 60%? In our final conversation, Anita shares how she discovered that her fear of losing everything, despite all her success, was actually inherited from her mother's anxiety and stress. And during pregnancy with Anita, we see that just because you inherited something, it doesn't mean you have to carry it. Healing is about choosing what moves forward with you and what stops with you. What were the biggest traumas that have stayed with you, that have come up for you, that you feel you've carried? Because you obviously grew up in the favelas. You grew up, you know, not in the easiest of circumstances. I think you mentioned yourself that you're almost treated like trash in Brazil so long. And so, like, tell me about what are the traumas you felt, you've held on to from your childhood that are now coming up, that you're healing now?

[Anita]

So there is this one interesting situation in the path of this healing thing. There was this one thought that was always coming to my mind, right? I was here being Anita. I have three different houses. I have everything I need, okay? If I want to retire right now, I can, and I will live comfortably for the rest of my life. But all of a sudden, I was just here minding my business, and I thought would come to my mind, what if I get pregnant and I lose all my money and I don't have money to survive, and then I need to work in the streets to get food to my babies and to. And I would be like, why am I thinking this? Why am I doing that?

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Why?

[Anita]

And then I did this session with my shaman, and she said, this is not your thought. You got this thought the same way we get DNA from our parents. And, like, the hair, the eyes, the body, we can get from thoughts and energy, behaviors, and we don't realize that. So I told her, oh, for real? And then we did a session to clean this right, to remove this from me, because it's not mine. It comes from my family. So I did the session, and I talked to my mom. I said, mom, have you ever had this thought of, like, that you were gonna lose everything? We're not gonna have money, this and that. And that was like right before my, my birthday or 30 years old birthday. So she said, yeah, when I got pregnant from you, your dad lost his job and I felt like we were not going to have money to feed you guys and I would need to work in houses as like a housemaid or something to buy food. And I was like, wow, that makes total. Just spent the whole pregnancy with this fear of not having the money to feed us. So she was fearing it. And there is like I. I produced a movie with a friend of mine called me and it talks about this. The, the. The thoughts, the negative thoughts that your mom carries in the pregnancy becomes neuropeptides in your, in your, in your brain. So that's why you have these thoughts. And I was like, wow, mom. And I did the session with the lady and I got. I never had this thought again. And then I was doing my birthday, who was 30 years old, so special. Da da da. And I had this place that I wanted to do in Brazil. And for some reason every place I was trying, it was not available. I was trying everywhere. I'm not available because of this, not available because of that. I closed one place. No, not available anymore. So there's this, this one place, just this one spot. And I said, okay, let's go. What can we do? It's the only spot. Let's. Let's go. So I sent my dad the invitation sent to my dad. I said, oh dad, the party this year is going to be here. He was like, oh my God, daughter, this address is a. My dad didn't know about the, the talk I had to my mom. Nothing, right? And he's my best friend, but I didn't mention him. He goes, oh my God, daughter, this address used to be the company's address that I got fired when your mom was pregnant. And I was like, I'm dead. Like we're here celebrating my 30 years old with a party like full of everything that we are always afraid of not having.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

That's crazy.

[Anita]

And the same address. That's crazy. Where in life. That for me was such an answer from the universe. Right? And I was like, wow, this is so meaningful. And life is full of these, these situations that for me are not coincidence at all.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah, that's. That's incredible.

[Anita]

It is.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

That's really powerful. And I love that full circle moment.

[Anita]

Agree.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

And I love, I mean the movie that you made is that out? Where can we watch that? Me.

[Anita]

The name is me. A friend of mine, the one introduced me to this shaman, she did it, and then she asked me to help her producing it and sharing with the platforms and everything. So I was helping her on this final touch of the movie. And it talks about this, about how you can get heritage from your parents, not only in your blood, physical, but also mental. And karmas that come from your mom, from your grandmother, from. Because it comes from father to daughter, you know, and it's important to clean it, to. To work on it, because otherwise we're here with no purpose. We're not. We. We get. We spend all this time here, and we don't figure out what's your purpose, What's. What are you here for, you know? And I always had in my life this desire to understand. And when I was a kid, I was very like that already. I used to dream a lot about a lot of things. My mom tells me that I used to wake up and see people, and I was always very connected. I used to tell them everything that was going to happen in my life. Everything. I used to tell them, like, oh, I'm gonna sing here. I'm gonna do this. Our house is gonna be like this. Like this. I used to give them details of everything. And my. My dad, he was always very stressed with work. And he tells me that I used to come to him and say, dad, don't worry. In the end, everything's gonna be great. You will see. You're so smart, you're so cute, you're so nice. In the end, you will see. You're not gonna worry about any of this. I'm gonna be a singer. I'm gonna do this and this and that. And it's so fun when he tells me, because I was actually describing so precisely what was gonna happen.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Yeah. I mean, you've. It sounds like you've made so much spiritual investment in transforming your mind, your heart, your energy, your space. And at the same time, you've also made physical changes. Like, I was learning that you also were on birth control, and then you left birth control. And I feel like even those types of changes were linked to this kind of internal change that was going on. Right. So many of us carry pain. We didn't ask for grief. That feels unresolved, patterns that don't make sense until we look deeper. What these conversations show us is that trauma doesn't always look obvious, but it always leaves a mark. But here's the good news. The moment you begin to understand it, you've already begun to heal. The healing begins when we stop blaming ourselves and start reframing to understand it more deeply. What am I carrying? Where did it come from? And what would it look like to let it go? Whether through self reflection, therapy, spirituality, or storytelling, every step toward awareness is a step toward freedom. Thank you so much for watching. I hope you'll subscribe so that you never miss a video and continue your dedication to feeling happier, healthier and more healed. I'll see you soon. If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hey, I'm Kurt Brown Oehler. And I am Scotty Landis. And we host Bananas, the podcast where.

[John Legend]

We share the weirdest, funniest real news.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Stories from all around the world. And sometimes from our guests personal lives too. Like when Whitney Cummings recently revealed her.

[John Legend]

Origin story on the show.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There's no way I don't already have rabies. This is probably just my why my personality is like this. I'm.

[Anita]

I've been surviving rabies for the past 20 years.

[Oprah Winfrey]

New episodes of Bananas Drop every Tuesday. The Exactly Right network. Listen to bananas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

It's important that we just reassure people.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

That they're not alone and there is help out there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The Good Stuff Podcast Season two takes.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

A deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a triple a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They bring you to the front lines.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Of One Tribe's mission.

[Anita]

One Tribe saved my life twice.

[Dr. Gabor Mate]

Welcome to season two of the Good Stuff.

[Host/Interviewer (possibly Jay Shetty or a narrator)]

Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You get your podcasts. I just think the process and the journey is so delicious. That's where all the good stuff is. You just can't live and die by the end result.

[Anita]

That's comedian Phoebe Robinson. And yeah, those are the kinds of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Gems you'll only hear on my podcast, the Bright side.

[Anita]

I'm your host, Simone Boyce. I'm talking to the brightest minds in entertainment, health, wellness and pop culture. And every week we're going places in our communities, our careers, and ourselves. So join me every Monday and let's find the bright side together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Listen to the Bright side on the.

[Anita]

Iheartradio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is an I heart podcast.