← On Purpose with Jay Shetty
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Lucy Kalanithi: What Loss Can Teach Us About Living (The Perspective Shift That Changes Everything)
01:12:13
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- [00:00]
Jay Shetty
This is an I Heart Podcast Guaranteed
- [00:04]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Human summer is here.
- [00:06]
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- [01:06]
Kal Penn
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- [02:07]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Snap, snap Snap.
- [02:09]
Jay Shetty
Ten years after losing her husband, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like.
- [02:14]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
After a decade, he ultimately got the news that he had a chest X ray that essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. I never thought I was going to feel okay. It was like Paul died and I was like, it's all over.
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Jay Shetty
What did being so close to death teach you about life and living?
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
There's two big questions. What would be left undone? And how can I live most fully in the time I have left?
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Jay Shetty
Hey everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is Dr. Lucy Kalanithi. Ten years after losing her husband, bestselling author and neurosurgeon Paul Kalanithi, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade, how love evolves after loss, and what being so close to death can teach us about being fully alive. Lucy Kalanithi, welcome to On Purpose.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Thanks for having me.
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Jay Shetty
I have waited for this conversation since I've read the book and When Breath Becomes Air. And I read it when I still lived in New York, when I moved to the States. And it moved me so much because I hadn't really come across a book like that that felt like it was written at such a powerful moment and such a pivotal moment in someone's life, and then to have your reflections within it as well. It's kind of left an imprint on me. And then my team and I were sitting down and we're thinking about books that had an impact on us as a team, and. And this came to mind immediately. And so I can't tell you how grateful I am for your time and energy for the trip over here. I know you've traveled here especially to be with us in LA and just want to start off by saying thank you.
- [04:05]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Thank you so much.
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Jay Shetty
Tell me, what does it feel like remembering Paul 10 years on?
- [04:11]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I used to think life was like a mountain that you climb. Like, I'll follow the path and then I'll get where I'm going. And now, like, having lost Paul, having taken our daughter from being a baby to now being a seventh grader, I think of life much more as, like, a series of moments. In a way. It's like that my marriage and Paul's illness and even medical school, right? Those were all mixed together. Medical school, residency, being married, losing him, that was like a chapter. And now I'm in such a different chapter. It's actually kind of amazing for the opportunity to, like, dip back in, like, to get sort of, like, talking about Paul in a way that's really embodied because you're also experiencing him and we're talking about him in, like, in a real way. And at the same time, he's, like, sprinkled through my life all over the place. Like, you know, I'll go through, like, a breakup and think, like, what would Paul say, you know, in this situation, to me, to him? And also just, like, what would Paul think of Katie? She's so different. She's such a, like, singular, specific person. Not a baby, you know? So I guess, like, the things I can say about it are, like, 10 years on, you know, I never thought I was gonna feel okay. It was like Paul died, and I was like, it's all over. Who am I? What happened? Like, it's me, and I'm here, and I have this baby, but I'm so lonely. How is this ever gonna fill in? And my mom said, like, things will fill in. It'll become okay. And I was like, I literally don't believe you. But it's like things do. Like, things become okay. And then at the same time, like, even after you lose someone, like, they don't even remain static even though they're gone. You're not static. You continue to learn new things about them, you know, with Paul. I hear from Paul's readers about his book, and that's sort of like an ongoing relationship with him through other people. Anyway, I guess it's all just, like, a beautiful, terrible mix.
- [06:05]
Jay Shetty
Thank you for sharing that. Is there. Is there anything you understand differently about Paul?
- [06:10]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, I mean, like, the thing that makes me feel like I'm gonna burst into tears is actually a thing I don't yet understand, which is, you know, Paul, he was a doctor. He was a young neurosurgeon, really interested in meaning and mortality. Like, thought he would become a professor of philosophy or a writer, and then sort of surprised himself by going into medicine and was incredibly intoxicated by neurosurgery because the brain is just an organ in our body, like our liver, like our heart, but then it's also the seat of identity. And he was so interested in, okay, if you're undergoing, like, brain trauma, a stroke, you know, a tumor, how does that alter your identity and meaning? But also, how does, like, neurosurgery alter your sense of identity? He was really interested in patients who were facing, like, upheavals in meaning and identity. Then he himself became sick, had to face this whole upheaval, had to face the end of his life. And I felt like as Paul was going through this serious illness and dying, I really felt immediately in it with him. I felt so, like, fused with him. We had to do so many things together to take care of him, to make sure the book got written, to cope, to, like, show up for each other in, like, every way. But I wonder whether, like, when and if something happens to me and I'm sick and dying, if I'll read Paul's book and see how much I didn't understand and see, like, new things in the words or, like, reflect on his experience and think, like, oh, was he alone in that? And so, like, that sort of Breaks my heart. Like, what did I miss? You know, in answer to your question of, like, how have I gotten to know Paul differently? Yeah. I mean, when someone dies, like, stories come rushing in and then I think reading his book at different phases of my own life, I even get different things, even though I knew him so well. And then I think, you know, just the process, there's a flip side, which is like, how to not flatten someone after they die. Like, I think, like, when someone dies, they're sort of. Suddenly they become like, so amazing and perfect and I can't believe we lost this person. And all those things are true, but at the same time, it's like he, like, you know, left his socks on the floor and it annoyed me. Like, you know, just. He was just a regular person and he was funny and he drank too much whiskey and he like, just. He was like, textured, you know. And so I often think about, like, all the things I do remember about him. How do I keep those, like, in memory and keep him, like, complicated instead of like mythic?
- [08:47]
Jay Shetty
Both of those answers to what you said, you almost feel like you don't understand, which maybe you never will until we're all in the same position and going through something similar. And when we're facing not loss through someone else, but loss of ourselves, there may be certain things that we miss on that journey and we don't reckon. Recognize and. And maybe we shouldn't until.
- [09:10]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Sure. Couldn't.
- [09:12]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, couldn't. Yeah, exactly. But then on the flip side, the idea that you're saying that, it's almost like sometimes we don't celebrate people until they're gone.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Sure.
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Jay Shetty
We only see all the bad things.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Isn't that interesting?
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Ashley I
Yeah.
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Jay Shetty
And then as you were saying, on the flip side, when someone goes, we only see the good things and we don't. And it's so fascinating how the mind does that.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right.
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Jay Shetty
I guess he would know as a neurosurgeon, like, he'd know why we. Why we do that.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Jay Shetty
And where that comes from. Like, why is it that we kind of.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right. Like, what's the neuroscience of grief?
- [09:44]
Jay Shetty
The neuroscience of that grief, of how we block people's good things when they're alive and block people's, you know, bad things when they're gone and.
- [09:50]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right. Or is it about remembering? Like, remember to notice when you have your person here and then. Yeah. When they leave, remember to. Yeah. Don't forget.
- [09:58]
Jay Shetty
When you hear the age old phrase, time heals all wounds. How does that sit with you?
- [10:04]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I Mean, it's sort of, like, simplistic, and it actually makes it sound like the wounds will then go away. So I don't believe that part, but I do believe. I do think time heals all wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry was writing about grief and he said something like, grief is a wound that festers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't agree with that. Because if something festers, it's, like, untended. Right. And so I do think, like, there will always be a scar. There will always be something that looks different, feels different, something you're carrying, something you're literally carrying on your body. Like, that's also how grief feels. I think if you can sort of think to yourself, like, it's going to be okay in some way, you just don't know what okay means. And, like, sort of let the pain move through you, you will end up somewhere, you know, that's different and better than you thought.
- [10:56]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. It's interesting how all these statements have stood the test of time, but they have so much nuance when you're actually living them.
- [11:05]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, yeah. And some of them don't work right. Like, or you. You have to decide which ones work for you. Like, if someone sends you a card with something on it, or if someone says, you know, everything happens for a reason, and you don't believe that, it's not helpful. But you're right. I think many of those, like, things in literature, sayings like that hold up.
- [11:22]
Jay Shetty
What do you feel about that one? Everything happens for a reason.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I don't subscribe to that necessarily, but I think more than I did before. I think when hard things happen, I do believe something beautiful will come out of it. Something even if the only thing that comes out of it is that you suffered, which connects you to every human being everywhere across time, ever, and then potentially deepens your empathy for other people or deepens your ability to be a friend or, you know, whatever it might be. So. And then I think, like, suffering. Have you read Man's Search for Meaning?
- [12:03]
Jay Shetty
Of course.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, of course.
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Jay Shetty
Yeah. No, no, no.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
It's so gorgeous.
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Jay Shetty
No, no, no, I love it. Yeah.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You're saying. Yeah. I'm not surprised you read it. That's why I say, and like Viktor Frankl, who, you know, survived the Holocaust in a concentration camp and then went on to become a therapist afterward, he talks about witnessing all of these people and how they survived the unsurvivable. And he ends up talking about, like, how purpose or relationships, like, you wouldn't survive just because you had those, but you could only survive if you had something you were waiting for or someone who was waiting for you on the other side. And ultimately he ends up talking about how suffering is actually a really meaningful part of our lives. He says, like, his construction is that meaning comes from three things. And he says he conceives of work and love and suffering. And I love that he says work is like, the things you do and create, you know, like the imprint you leave on the world. Maybe love is like, all the types of love between people and then gratitude also, and just like, love writ large and then suffering. He talks about how, like, suffering is not this sort of, like, side event that you wish would go away. It is here. It will be here. Whether something beautiful comes out of it, whether it connects you to other people, or whether just like, the pure achievement of just persisting alone. I think there is, like, actual meaning in that. And so I think the idea of, like, everything happens for a reason. It's like, a reason will be found, but only you can find it. No one can tell you what it is, and no one can tell you that it's okay. Like, that's only yours. And maybe it takes years.
- [13:43]
Jay Shetty
I appreciate that. And the idea that there wasn't some predetermined reason or some reason that had to be the way. It was a journey of discovery.
- [13:52]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. And I think some people think that. And that's also like, a beautiful story or a beautiful.
- [13:58]
Jay Shetty
You know, what for you was actually helpful as you just talked about the need for relationships, the need for meaning. What was useful to hear from your relationships at the time and what do you find useful now?
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
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Jay Shetty
And helpful.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
This isn't about other people, actually, but this was a really helpful thing for me is. So Paul got sick, and we were both doctors, and there was something in that that was immensely helpful. And obviously, like, the privilege and logistics and all of that kind of stuff that came out of, like, being a healthcare person and a doctor was very helpful. But the thing that was the most helpful was having spent years and years taking care of sick people and their families and thinking, like, terrible things can happen to wonderful people, whether it's like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of cancer. And so when he was diagnosed, like, at one point, I was like, whatever you need to do to cope, go for it. Like, would you like to punch a wall? We have all these walls, like, they're all yours. And he was like, I don't need to. And I was like, I don't need to either. Like, what's that about? And I think it was kind of like, okay, turns out, like, it's our turn to like, be the people who are doing this. So it was really helpful to sort of like have that perspective. And Paul, in his writing wrote, you know, like, people often ask, don't you ask why me? And he said, well, why not me? Which I think is really beautiful. And in terms of like, what was helpful for us in terms of coping, I felt like the most important thing was just to feel witnessed. I actually didn't need anyone to try to fix it, to try to like say something that was gonna fix it or that it was okay. Like, one of the best condolence cards I got after Paul died was it just said, this sucks really big. And I was like, oh, so amazing. Like, and it also wasn't like too flowery or too like perfect or whatever. It was just like, this is how this person feels is definitely how I feel. Also, it's still funny. Like, even when you're dying, you're still you, you know, like, you're still funny. Like one thing that did that was really helpful for Paul, actually, when he was sick, you know, he was a 36 and 37 year old neurosurgeon, right? So he's used to being like, like healthy, dominant, in charge, in control, and then like loses all of that in an instant. So when people would come to visit and hang out, they'd say like, okay, I'm coming to visit, like, what can I do that's help helpful? And I was like, just come and hang out and like, be. Just like, be you. Like, be funny. Like ask Paul for career advice, you know, if that's what you would do anyway. Like, just because he's dying, like, doesn't mean he doesn't want to know what's going on with you. He's not like radioactive. He's not different. You know, I think illness can be so flattening. It's like people get sick and it's like humor zips out of the room, like sexuality zips out of the room and like, you're just like, I'm still me. Like, I'm still me just the same. And I'm losing all of these, but I also still have all these capacities. So I think just like making room for people's full self and people to be like, agentic and be, if that's a word, be an agent and like be a full person.
- [17:12]
Jay Shetty
I think we all lose our powers when we love someone and they lose someone totally. And I think for a Lot of people listening and watching. I think a lot of people become distant totally.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Because you don't really know what to do. Yeah. And I think, like, showing up is half the thing. And then also it's like, I do think there's something to, like, being specific, you know? Like, people often say, like, let me know if there's any way you can help. And you really mean it.
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Jay Shetty
Yeah.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
And I've done that. But I think when you're the sick person, it's like you are quite overwhelmed. And so it is useful to just, like, keep offering a little thing with no pressure. Like, I had some friends whose baby was in the hospital, and the husband was like, the best thing anyone ever did for us was say, like, I'm at the mall next door getting a burger. Like, what do you want on yours? I'll drop it off in 20. And they were just like, the works. Thanks. And then, like, they didn't have to talk to the person. Like, just, like, you know, that kind of stuff. Hey, like, do you need babysitting this week? Like, let me know. Yeah, like, I'm dropping off food. Do you want me to ring the doorbell or just let you know? Just text you when it's there. Just, like, something that has no pressure but also is, like, present and keep doing it.
- [18:18]
Jay Shetty
What do you think most people misinterpret about grief?
- [18:21]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
One thing is like, oh, if I say something, I'm going to remind her. Or if I say, what if I say something and then I make her sad. And I think when you're a grieving person, you're thinking about it all the time. It's present for you all the time. And so I think if somebody says, like, hey, I heard what happened. I've been thinking about you. You know, hey, I heard what happened. Like, how are you doing today? Is there anything you can do? It doesn't remind you. It just makes you feel seen and connected at a time when, like, it's really hard to feel connected. My mom said this amazing thing when we were growing up. She used to say, when in doubt, describe. And it basically meant, like, even if you don't know what's happening for you, or even if you don't know the perfect, perfect thing to say. Like, you can just describe what's going on. So you can just say, like, I heard that so and so died. It's really sad. I've been thinking about you so much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to say, and I don't. But I want you to know I love you and like, that doesn't that sound. Sounds so cozy and nice and it's like they didn't have to say a special perfect, wise thing they just described, you know? So I think that's also really helpful.
- [19:33]
Jay Shetty
Describing what you're going through is sometimes better than trying to say the perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah, absolutely. To just be like, this is the worst day ever.
- [19:42]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. Yeah.
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Jay Shetty
This is hard. Yeah, this is hard. Yeah. This is. This is really difficult.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
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Jay Shetty
Is so much more. I don't know, there's something about it that opens up the heart rather than closes it.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally. Yeah.
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Jay Shetty
Just. It's almost acceptance.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Can I just come sit with you? This looks so hard.
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Jay Shetty
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. To admit that to ourselves, that's what we struggle to do. What was. I've. It's been really interesting as I was preparing for this interview. I've had friends who've. I mean, I've lost friends to cancer over the last few years. I've lost spiritual mentors, friends.
- [20:14]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Jay Shetty
And different scenarios. But I had a friend recently who is going through it in the States. His partner's a doctor, but he's not.
- [20:24]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
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Jay Shetty
And his partner wasn't as supportive as he wanted them to be because to him, cancer felt like the big C word. That was scary from the moment he heard it. But her take was, you're going to be fine. They're going to figure it out. And I was wondering, what were the kinds of conversations you both had as both being doctors, and what was the most important conversation you think you had at that time?
- [20:51]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
The way Paul got diagnosed was he'd been getting sicker and sicker. And then he ultimately got the news that he had a chest X ray that essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like, dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. You know, we're going to the hospital tomorrow for. For a CT scan. It's going to show, you know, metastatic cancer. And it was so interesting because as we were packing for this hospital stay, he was going to go and get expedited workup. I was packing, like, practical things like phone charger, insurance card, like fuzzy socks or whatever. And he packed books. It was so interesting. He packed Being in Time by Heidegger and mere Christianity by C.S. lewis and then a novel called Cancer Ward by Solzhenitsyn. And it was this sort of like, immediate recognition of, like, the doctor stuff is not going to help me. Like, I need to turn to words and literature or I just need to turn to, like, the human experience of this. And for him, that was like, oh, I'm back to literature. So that was really interesting. I think one of the most important conversations was right away, which was we ended up looking at the CT scan ourselves and sort of, like, wordlessly absorbing this diagnosis of, like, it was like looking at a patient's scan, and then you're like, oh, my gosh, it's you. Like, it's. You know. And then we, like, got into the hospital bed together. And then he said, I want you to remarry before we almost talked about anything, which was really beautiful. Like, beautiful. And felt so sort of, like, shocking at the time. But then there's like, all these layers to that. Like, the biggest one is like, I love you into a future where I will not be there. Like, that's amazing. That's such an amazing kind of love. And people have it, right? People have it for their children. People have it for their spell. It's like, I love you forever, independent of my existence. Right? But he also was saying with that sentence, like, it was so stark that it was kind of like, okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go there immediately and then implicitly tell you, like, we can talk about anything. And that was really helpful. Like, super, super helpful. And I think the battle metaphor for cancer is so pervasive. It started with Nixon's war on cancer, but then now it extends to individual level. We'll beat it. We'll fight it. We're gonna win.
- [23:23]
Jay Shetty
Surviving.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, surviving. And I think that metaphor is so flimsy, interesting. It's sort of like, there's winners and losers, and there's one thing you're supposed to do here, and it's just survive at all costs. And there's like. When you survey people with cancer, there's, like, so many things people hope for. It's like, people hope for dignity. People hope for, like, functionality as long as possible. People hope that their loved ones will be okay. I don't know. There was sort of just, like, this panoply of hopes that I think, like, we knew to, like, sidestep the battle metaphor, which was really helpful. And then I think part of that was just, we knew how sick he was. We couldn't get away from it. We could not escape, like, understanding how sick he was, which was, like, the worst part, but in some ways the best part. Cause then we could decide what to do.
- [24:20]
Jay Shetty
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- [24:48]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
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- [27:00]
Jay Shetty
What I'm hearing you say is that it's it wasn't the the doctor conversation or the medical conversation because that was almost accepting what was in front of you. Yeah, but it was the conversations that you both allowed each other to have beyond the knowledge that you both were
- [27:14]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
aware of, like, luckily. And at the same time, like, I made it sound easy, and it, like, totally was. It was so painful and, like, so confusing and just so. Like, it took months, months for us to, like, even feel like we had our feet on the ground, you know? And then things are like. It's a constantly shifting landscape, you know?
- [27:33]
Jay Shetty
And he's going through his emotions, you're going through yours, like.
- [27:36]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [27:36]
Jay Shetty
I can't imagine that they align every day, every moment.
- [27:39]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally.
- [27:40]
Jay Shetty
When I wonder about just the work that you're doing as well. And as we kind of navigate this conversation, I'm like, I know that in my life, when I lose someone I'm close to, especially when they're around the same age, there's something different than when I lose someone older. Because at least when someone's older or at an age that feels appropriate for loss, there's that story that you can tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of my monk friends. He was still a monk when he passed away. We lived in the monastery together, but he passed away a few years back now, and he died of stage four colon cancer.
- [28:19]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [28:19]
Jay Shetty
And he was, like, maybe two years older than me.
- [28:22]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [28:22]
Jay Shetty
And I remember watching him through the whole journey, present with him, talking to him on the phone, seeing him when I could when I went back and visited him. And I almost feel like I learned so much more from him about life than I've ever taught or known. And I wanted to know, like, what did being so close to death teach you about life and living?
- [28:44]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, it's hard to separate, actually. Like, being so close to death and being so close to Paul, because it was, like, so embodied, you know? And it's funny, it's like you're talking about your friend dying and, like, what a surprise that is when someone young dies. And it's like, the way I've ended up, like, conceiving of it is sort of like, turns out that's what was gonna happen. Like, that helps me a lot, actually. I think, like, being so close to someone who's dying actually taught me something about dying, which is that until you die, you're alive, you know? Like, what happened for Paul was like, he got. He was a neurosurgeon, got diagnosed with cancer, worked for a year as a neurosurgeon. Like, this is who I am. This is what I care about. Then I got pregnant during that year on purpose. Then he had sort of serendipitously. And because he was a beautiful writer, transitioned to writing first essays and then a memoir. And so he sort of, like, built a new vocation during the time that he was sick. And it's like, he was so sick and so, like, debilitated and still, like, physically still and, like, wan, you know, he was ill. And at the same time, he was so, like, engaged in what he was doing. Like, so just sort of, like, intellectually engaged in the world of ideas and in the world of relationships, too, like, being a new dad. And was just really interesting to see. Like, one of the book reviews of Paul's book was by this doctor named Gavin Francis. And he wrote, like, this book is unforgettable, or this book is something. It is crackling with life. And I just remember thinking, like, oh, how amazing to be crackling with life when you're dying. And I think the same thing is true with aging. The same thing is true with, like, disability or patienthood. It's like, there's this idea that, like, you know, something about, like, a human identity is taken from you when you're aging. But it's like, some of my favorite people are little old ladies who are so giggly and hilarious and, like, not afraid of anything, you know? And, like, I used to think, like, little old lady, and now I think, like, gosh, like, spitfire who, like, knows everything and, like, you know, nothing shocks her. And so I think the thing it taught me also as a doctor, you know, like, just how totally human everyone is, you know? And I think when you're at work as a doctor, there's so much dehumanization. It's like, you're at work, you're rushing around, you're hungry, you have to go to the bathroom, you have to get to the or. And so it's like, all of the families, like, sleeping on the sofas outside the ICU are sort of the furniture. Like, they're the furniture at work because you're doing your job. But also, it's like you're constantly toggling between, like, this is the worst day of this person's life. And I have 36 minutes with them. And then in answer to your question, for real, about, like, what can dying teach us about being alive and living? Dying is, like, the. One of the most human things we do. It's like, it's too big for any model. It's too big for a medical model. It's too big for, like, a lot of religious models. It's not a medical Event. It's like a human thing. Frank Ostasesky, he's like a Buddhist teacher who founded Zen hospice in San Francisco. So gorgeous. He's so beautiful. And, like, he talks about how dying, Dying is all about relationships. So interesting. It's like your relationship to yourself, your relationship to people you love, your relationship to, like, holiness, whatever that would be. He's like, it explodes every kind of relationship. And then Ira Byock, who's this, like, really beautiful doctor here, actually talks about, like, having worked with a lot of people who are dying, and then, like, you know, what they have to teach to people who are living. And he's like, it's two big questions that he uncovers. And he says, what would be left undone or unsaid if I died now? You know, like, how can I live most fully in the time I have left? You know? And I think there is sort of a, like, transcendence in just, like, death is not like, something that happens, like, at the end of the road. It's like it is here all the time. It is something you can, like, tap into, like, finitude or transcendence. Like, even, like a traffic jam. And you're just like, road rage. I'm going where I'm going. I hate these people. They're in my way. Like, it's like, no, like, you are the people. You are the traffic. Everyone in this traffic jam, like, was a tiny baby, like, will be on a deathbed, has someone who loves them, who will be, like, bereft when they're gone. Like, God willing. Right. And so, like, suddenly zooming out to that, you're like, who cares about the traffic? Everything's beautiful. So I don't know, I think there's, like, a real luminosity that can be found, like, when someone's dying. And then at the same time, like, traffic jams suck. And, like, you know, when someone's dying, you also have to, like, make dinner and, you know, pick up the prescription. But I think it's like a constant toggle between, like, zooming in and zooming in and transcendence, you know, which is like, hopefully what we can all do, like, every day.
- [33:54]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's zooming in, zooming out. And as you said. Yeah. Like, for a few months now, my team and I have been creating these zoomed out versions. When you were describing that.
- [34:04]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [34:04]
Jay Shetty
Of almost like, city crosswalks, parks. Yeah. And. And we just. We place these little thoughts on what everyone's going through.
- [34:15]
Ashley I
What.
- [34:15]
Jay Shetty
And. And people are, like, moving around in the park. Or sometimes it's.
- [34:19]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Can you, like, ascribe, like a story? Correct. I play that game with my kids. Yeah.
- [34:22]
Kal Penn
Oh, wow.
- [34:23]
Jay Shetty
Oh, no way. Tell me about that.
- [34:25]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
We just play that, like, at dinner and stuff. We're out to dinner. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. We'll be like, what are they talking about? And then you'll be like, oh, this person just walked by, like, his dog's name. Sometimes it's just sort of, like, silly. It's like, his dog's name is Peanut and just make it up. But sometimes it's like, oh, like, do you think he's just gone through a breakup? Like, look at his face. Ah. Like, we just sort of make it up, like, as a way to pass the time. But it is sort of like an empathy game.
- [34:49]
Jay Shetty
Absolutely. Yeah. So we're doing exactly the same thing, except creating it on social media and sharing them with stories for people to zoom out a little bit. And so we'll take different scenes, whether it's an airport or whether it's a park or whether it's a crosswalk, and we'll have lots of people walking around and we just put little stories on. On top of them. I love thinking that way.
- [35:09]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [35:10]
Jay Shetty
Because I always know that if I cut someone off in traffic, I feel I have a good reason.
- [35:14]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Sure.
- [35:15]
Jay Shetty
But if someone cuts me off in traffic, they're an.
- [35:18]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I have a great reason.
- [35:19]
Jay Shetty
Exactly. Yeah.
- [35:21]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So what are you trying to show? Are you just trying to show, like, everyone has, like, a rich life? As rich as yours?
- [35:26]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. And we're not alone in our suffering.
- [35:28]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yes.
- [35:29]
Jay Shetty
So you may feel like you're suffering right now. You're definitely not alone.
- [35:33]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right.
- [35:34]
Jay Shetty
That everyone you meet may simply be projecting their own suffering onto you, and it isn't a reflection of who you are.
- [35:40]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Oh, totally.
- [35:41]
Jay Shetty
And everyone has a story.
- [35:43]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Everyone has a thing.
- [35:44]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [35:44]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [35:45]
Jay Shetty
And so just trying to help us, I guess, transcend. But then I like your version of it's still traffic, so I need to make one of that one. Yeah. I think we need to end it with that. I think. I think you found the perfect ending.
- [35:58]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Oh, it's so cool. I can't wait to see that. Yeah.
- [36:00]
Jay Shetty
No, as you're saying, it was just. It's. It's helpful hearing it from you. I. As you're answering these questions, I'm so honestly, like, it's stirring so much within me. Because when you sit down with someone who's really done the work and really had to work through grief and really had to think through this loss on such a personal level. Your answers are beyond any logic in a beautiful way.
- [36:27]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Thanks.
- [36:28]
Jay Shetty
And they're counterintuitive almost. And that's what's so helpful and refreshing.
- [36:34]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
And.
- [36:34]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [36:35]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You know what's so weird, though, is, like, partly it helps you, and then partly it doesn't, because, like, the next thing that comes is also really hard. Like, sometimes I think that about talking about Paul and, like, going through that experience. Like, Paul's memoir came out a little under a year after he died. And then I immediately went on a book tour, like, an unexpected book tour, and was, like, processing in real time, like, what had happened, really just, like, aching through grief and describing it. And now I'm describing, like, I went through this process and what came out of it, which is, like, a wonderful thing. But then, like, the things that are happening for me, like, I talked to somebody the other day, actually, who said this, who said, like, oh, I'm raising this, like, challenging teenager, and it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And then she was like, well, I told a friend that, and the friend said, wait a second. Like, 12 years ago, your wife had cancer and you had young children. Isn't that the hardest thing you've ever done? And she was like, oh, it is. It definitely is. But right now, this feels like the hardest thing. Like, it's the new hardest thing, you know? But at the same time, I think you end up realizing, like, okay, I've done a hard thing before. You know, like Jane Fonda on Julia Louis Dreyfus's podcast. She was like, people always say that being old is hard. And she's like, no, being young is hard. She's like, being old is amazing. You've been through so many things. You know you can do it. And I was like, that's awesome.
- [38:02]
Jay Shetty
If we're able to pull from that well of experience and tragedy and if we're able to look at it and go. Because I think.
- [38:10]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Think.
- [38:11]
Jay Shetty
I think humans don't give themselves enough credit for how much they've survived.
- [38:14]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Same. Yeah, yeah.
- [38:15]
Jay Shetty
We don't give ourselves enough credit because we don't. We don't look back at that moment and think we were strong. We look back at it and think we were weak.
- [38:21]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
That's so interesting.
- [38:22]
Jay Shetty
And that we just.
- [38:23]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Like, I was a stupid teenager. And then you're like, no, you had to learn that. Yeah, yeah. There's no other way to learn that.
- [38:28]
Jay Shetty
Exactly. And, like, owning that is what gives you what I think what you're Sharing, which is, oh, I can look back and think, wow, I got through the heart. And I, I can relate to that. I mean, I remember talking to my mom once and my mom is not someone who gives me motivational advice or gives me wisd. She's loving and caring, but not. Yeah, a wise sage in her words. And I remember I was going through my most difficult fight yet at a certain point in my life around nine years ago, and I was talking to my mom and she was asking me how I was and what I ate for dinner, which it was usually a conversation. And I just said, I was like, yeah, you know, I'm just, I'm doing all right. I'm just stressed out doing a bit, you know. And I would say that in a passing way.
- [39:08]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Sure.
- [39:09]
Jay Shetty
And you said, you're good at dealing with stress. And I was like, what? Like my mom doesn't just say, I
- [39:15]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
thought it was so helpful.
- [39:16]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, when you were in my womb, you went through a lot of stress.
- [39:22]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
That's so beautiful.
- [39:23]
Jay Shetty
And it was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna cry. It gave me such a gift. So much. It, it's still what I turn to when I need strength.
- [39:33]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Oh my goodness.
- [39:34]
Jay Shetty
And it's, it broke through the challenge I had at that time. Like, it gave me all the resilience and conviction I needed because my mom had just reminded me that.
- [39:41]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Well, that's so beautiful.
- [39:42]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, it was, it was unbelievable.
- [39:43]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
It's so amazing too because she's saying like, that's such an embodied thing because, like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna cry. Because, like she's telling you like your, the fact that you were an fetus, right? Like she's telling you, like, your body already knows how to do this. Like your body did this before you, like, could even when you were pre verbal.
- [40:04]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [40:05]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Wow. What a, like, amazing form of trust she gave you in yourself.
- [40:09]
Jay Shetty
I've been thinking a lot about this idea of the stories of your parents and the stories of your ancestors. And when I think about the stories of my parents, which I learned early on, but not in as much detail as I wished, I just heard about how much they went through and I was thinking about this with Katie. Is it where I'm going with this? And it's almost like I didn't live that with them. I didn't live in those homes they grew up in. My dad grew up in the slums in India. My, my mum grew up in a war torn country. They Both moved to England, you know, and they got married. And when I think about them, like, wow, that is. That's so difficult. Like, my parents did something really hard.
- [40:46]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yes.
- [40:47]
Jay Shetty
My mom was studying for her exams when she had soldiers on her rooftop.
- [40:50]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Wow. Yeah.
- [40:51]
Jay Shetty
And my dad shared a bathroom with, like, 25 families.
- [40:56]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [40:57]
Jay Shetty
And.
- [40:57]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [40:57]
Jay Shetty
When I think about. I think, God, that is insane. And. And then when you think. And you're like, but I come from that.
- [41:02]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Sure.
- [41:02]
Jay Shetty
Like.
- [41:03]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Like, I come from that.
- [41:04]
Jay Shetty
And like, what.
- [41:05]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [41:05]
Jay Shetty
And so I wonder when, like, for Katie, who.
- [41:08]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [41:09]
Jay Shetty
As we were talking about earlier, like, doesn't necessarily know her father, but how do you think about.
- [41:15]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [41:16]
Jay Shetty
Creating that experience for her in. In helping her make sense of it.
- [41:21]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
It's interesting that you're saying this thing about your parents because, like, the hardest thing is when your parents lay it out for you. Right. Like, you do need to sort of absorb it yourself.
- [41:29]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [41:30]
Kal Penn
Yeah.
- [41:30]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You know, like, I did this, and you're like, okay. But, like, it's so beautiful that you really absorbed it. So it's like, I guess I hope Katie will do that, you know, from reading Paul's book or from, like, watching me and, you know, being me. Whatever she takes from that. But I think so much about how to give her sort of, like, spaciousness, like, support and spaciousness, to, like, figure out what it all means to her, you know, because she's her own person. Her childhood is very different from mine in this other way. Right. Like, she has the hardship of losing a parent. I didn't. She's, like, decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not me. She's very specific. I think none of us, honestly, like, comes to appreciate that our parents are, like, full human beings. Like, it. I remember in my 20s being like, wait a second. My dad is not a professional dad. He's, like, a dude. He's just a dude. Like, that explains so much. Like, that explains so much in a really, like, gorgeous way. You know, he's like, someone who's just amazingly doing his best. Katie has fewer, like, signposts to know who Paul was, but she has this book to read. And the book essentially says, like, it's important to try hard. It's important to do your best, and I love you. Like, he's. You know, Paul wrote so much about striving and about struggling to find meaning and about, you know, like, about facing death squarely. And then at the end, he, like, stops, and he's writing in the second person to her and, like, writes a message to her. And that's the last piece that he puts for her. As I'm raising Katie, I try to have her sort of take in, like, random information about Paul. Like, just truly random. Like, you love taking a hot shower. I hate a hot shower. I get in and out. Like, you and Daddy, like, love a hot shower. He loved a hot shower. You take the hour power shower, just like Daddy. So that's just like, a random thing that you would know if you were, like, growing up, like, next to someone.
- [43:43]
Orderly Meds Advertiser
Right.
- [43:43]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So I try to give her those kinds of things instead of just, like, your dad died and he was so wonderful and he loved you. It's like, I try to give her, like, sort of specifics that are like, neither here nor there, but they're like. They, like, create a tapestry.
- [43:57]
Jay Shetty
Yes.
- [43:57]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
She, like, sees his brothers, who are, like, really funny and amazing and sort of like, like, just funny in the way that he was. And then I don't know what her interaction will be with Paul's book. Like, it's all over our house. It's like. I mean, not all over, but, like, we have five copies, and they're on different bookshelves and they're around, and I don't know when she's gonna pick it up. I don't know what she's gonna take. I don't know if he's gonna feel really close, if he's gonna feel really far, or if she's gonna say, like, I'm not interested in this, or if she's gonna be 30 and produce a movie adaptation. Like, I have no. No idea. But I hope that she'll find some way that helps her, like, you did understand, like, where she came from and that she was loved and. Yeah, she came from this. Like, that's really beautiful to hear you say that. I came from that.
- [44:41]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [44:42]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So I have no idea.
- [44:43]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [44:43]
Ashley I
Yeah.
- [44:44]
Jay Shetty
No, of course you don't. But I. I appreciate how you incorporate the story, the tapestry, the. The natural, the real of. Of what an experience is, and. And the not heavy. Also the version that's digestible and inhalable without holding it. Yeah.
- [45:02]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Because I've done a lot and, you know, doing this book tour and connecting with, like, grief groups and just all kinds of stuff. Since Paul died, I've actually asked people for advice. Like, if anyone here in this audience is the kid, you know, who, like, lost a grandparent or lost whomever, and then you don't know them, and you're piecing it together, what advice do you have? And, like, the resounding advice has been, like, don't put away the pictures. Don't lock it up. You know, like, let the kid sort of, like, have access, ask questions, like, discover it and just don't, like, put it away.
- [45:35]
Jay Shetty
What was it like making that decision to have Katie at the time and then actually go through both coming to terms with Paul's mortality and then, you know, wanting to create life together?
- [45:47]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Paul and I had sort of always thought, like, that would be the moment when we would think about having children. Like, he was at the end of his residency. I was in attending by then. This is when things will, like, ostensibly become easier. And then right at that moment, he's diagnosed with. With metastatic terminal cancer. The prognosis is, like, months to a few years, but we both looked at each other and thought, like, maybe we should do this. Still sort of, like, surprised ourselves. And he was more certain than I was. He really, really wanted to. And I needed to sort of shore up, like, the practicalities. It was sort of like, is the family on board with this? Like, we refinance the mortgage, like, all of these things. It's like, can I be a solo parent? Like, that is what I'm going to be. And then I also was honestly worried about his. I was worried about, like, what you said, like, how to hold, like, birth and death and all of it at one time. And I. I asked him, actually, and was like, you are. You are sick. And, like, as you're going through this process, don't you feel like having a child will make dying more painful for you? And he said. He said, wouldn't it be great if it did make it more painful? Which just, like, cracked the whole thing open. And I think actually for anybody who has a child, like, nobody is doing it because it's gonna make their life easier. There's, like, a million things we do that make our lives harder. Like, everything. Everything, right? Like, you know, climb a mountain all the way to the top to come down again in the exact same day. It's like, you didn't do that because it was easy. And so I just think, wouldn't it be great if it did? Has changed my life so much and cracked open, like, not necessarily the best one. Sometimes you cannot have joy without risking pain or inviting pain. And for me, it was like another layer of uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself is, like, so much uncertainty, so much fear. And I actually, as a new mom, had to keep reminding myself, like, you know, it's like you go in and you, like, make sure the baby's still breathing and you're like, is everything okay? She gets a fever and it's such a panic. And, like, I had to remember and be like, I am 99% certain that this person is gonna be fine.
- [48:06]
Jay Shetty
Katie.
- [48:06]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I'm 99% certain that Paul will not be fine.
- [48:09]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [48:10]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So, like, that is now, like, where I need to hold, like, my energy. So that was kind of, like, helpful when she was a baby, it was like, it's so easy to wish away time, you know, it's like, oh, I can't wait till she sleeps through the night. Or like, what's she gonna be like when she's, like, 18? And there was none of that. It was like, this is like, the moment that Paul will be here for is, like, Katie's infanthood and, like, Paul's final years. And so there was no, like, wishing away the moment. It was all present. And it turns out, like, that's actually really good for you. It's like, the reason people, like, learn to meditate or, you know, or it's like I'm washing my hands in the sink. Like, this is the feeling of the cool water. It was like that. It was like. Like a baby cries, someone dies. I'm here, like, in this moment, you know, and so, yeah, and I still can access that somewhat. And then I also am like, you know, where are the pencils for seventh grade? So, like. But anyway, it was. It was, like, beautiful and amazing and been really good that we did it and just, yeah, worked out, taught me a lot.
- [49:28]
Ashley I
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- [50:27]
Orderly Meds Advertiser
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- [51:01]
Kal Penn
Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from. From Earth. I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo. Is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that. That deeply, emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too. Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts,
- [52:13]
Jay Shetty
Where you always so evolved and. Or did this accelerate it in a way that. Because when I hear you speak, I'm just like, God, this is like a lot of growth. A lot of. In a short amount of time, a lot of taking on a lot of different things in a short amount of time. And it's almost like, do you feel like you were somewhat prepared for it from somewhere in your past?
- [52:35]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
The heaviest lift for me, actually, I think in terms of, like, training my, like, brain and heart to hold a million things, actually was in medical school. I was like, I cannot believe I'm using, like, every fiber of my being to figure out, like, intellectually and emotionally how to take care of sick people and attend to, like, every, every layer of what's happening in this room and then, like, make 10,000 decisions about, like, how to make it all happen. So that was really hard. I also went through an episode of depression in residency that was incredibly painful I wasn't, like, hospitalized, but I took two weeks off work. And I felt like. I just felt like I didn't exist. I mean, it was depression. It's like depression, like Andrew Solomon says about depression. Like, depression is not the opposite of happiness. It's the opposite of vitality. It's, like, so interesting. That was really hard. And I think, like, making it through that. I don't even think I could put into words what it, like, taught me. But touching that, like, pain, like, left me with, I don't know, some sort of ability to approach darkness or something. Just be like, okay, like, I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah. And then I just have, like, really good friends. And we're talking all the time. Like, I'm a processor by talking, obviously, you know. And then at the same time, it's like I went through this hard thing of all these ideas about, like, what helps me cope. And then you go through a breakup and you're, like, heartbroken, and you hate everything and you have to start again. Or, like, you know, you have to figure out how to explain it to a kid. And then, you know, like, that's impossible, or they think you're stupid. You know, like, I don't know. It's all everything. It's all everything.
- [54:16]
Jay Shetty
It's the transcendence and bullshit.
- [54:18]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. You know, this actually makes me think of this thing. Yeah. Transcendence of bullshit.
- [54:22]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [54:23]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Do you know this idea, it came out of Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social psychologist, this idea of, like, the end of history, illusion. So, like, he talks about, like, when you're asking this question of, like. Like, what got you to where you are today? And then, like, he interviewed a bunch of people, and he said, like, how much do you think you've changed in the past 10 years? And everyone said, so much. Like, so much. And they said, how much do you think you're gonna change in the next 10 years? And people said, probably not a lot. And he interviewed people at every age, and there's, like, a little bit of a slowdown, like, in midlife. But essentially everyone changes all the time. Everyone changes the same amount in the 10 years. You walk around thinking it's the end of history, illusion of, like, I'm me. I've made it here. I've got it sorted. Here we go, you know? And then in 10 years, you'll be, like, a whole different you with, like, different sensibility or, like, different frameworks. Like, isn't that crazy?
- [55:15]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [55:16]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So I don't know. I find that really helpful. I don't know why.
- [55:20]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. Allowing ourselves to be new and different. I mean, it's interesting. When you first said that question, I was like, oh, I'd say I haven't changed much in the last 10 years. That would be my initial take. I feel like I knew who I was. I'm pretty much the same person. But I think that's not fully true. I think there's a. There's also an end of history illusion from 10 years ago.
- [55:35]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. Yeah.
- [55:36]
Jay Shetty
That's interesting in the sense of, like, I made up my mind who I was 10 years ago in my head, and I stopped then. And it's like, well, that's not obviously true. Yeah, that's fascinating. That's. That's really cool to play with.
- [55:46]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [55:47]
Jay Shetty
It's refreshing to allow yourself to say, I have changed my ability, my values have changed, or what I care about has changed. And.
- [55:54]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
And then when a big hard thing happens, you're like, oh, it's going to make the me.
- [55:58]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Dan's work, so I'll have to check that out.
- [56:01]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Really cool.
- [56:02]
Jay Shetty
I wanted to ask you, actually, going back to something you said earlier. What about Casey? Katie reminds you most about Paul.
- [56:07]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Her eyes and her hands, her stubbornness. It's like, infuriating. She very much knows her own mind, which is infuriating.
- [56:15]
Jay Shetty
11.
- [56:16]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah, it's like an entire parenting toolboxes are unavailable to me because she's not a pleaser. And then she's like an incredible physical comedian, which Paul was also. Those are the things I think I would say she's introverted like Paul. I process by, like, speaking, like, relating. Sometimes I don't even know what I think until I've said it. And Paul was much more, like, inward. I think that's like, sort of like why he's like, When Breath Becomes Heiress. Spun out of his illness because he was, like, churning and processing and reading and writing. And she's introverted like that. But then she'll give you, like, you know, like a little gleam, you know, of something. She's thinking. Yeah.
- [57:00]
Jay Shetty
Has she ever asked you anything about Paul? Like, from her own curiosity.
- [57:03]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally. And she's actually. It's so interesting you asked that, because I was gonna say, of course. And then. But it's not necessarily of course. She's just sort of in the mix, gleaning. But recently she started to. She said, like, could you make me a album of videos of Daddy? And I was like, sure. And it's like, I so badly want to be like, what's she watching? When's she watching them? You know? Cause she's, like, having iPad time, but, like, there's a bunch of videos. There's like, some interviews and there's some goof, like, sketch comedy stuff. And there's some, like, Thanksgiving, someone shot a video of whatever, and so, like, she can look at that and then she asks for, like, stories. I'll tell her a story of, like, oh, yeah, here's a story about Daddy, like, in a chess tournament when he was in seventh grade, and he was, like, really bratty and a terrible loser. So, like, well, you know, just like, ha, ha. But then there, you know, there's a lesson in that. And she, like, recently, like, of her own volition, like, put a small photo of the two of them next to her bed, you know, And I was like, oh, so interesting. Like, she's, like, claiming him.
- [58:05]
Jay Shetty
That's beautiful.
- [58:06]
Kal Penn
Yeah.
- [58:06]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [58:07]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You know what else is interesting, though, is, like, she doesn't have a sibling. Like, it's me and her, and she really wants a sibling. She wants a little sister, specifically. She really wants me to keep dating so she can have a sit. I'm like, we can't engineer that whole thing. I'll keep you posted. But it's interesting because I actually think, like, for her, losing Paul was a big thing. And not having, like, like a dad, there is a big thing, but not having a sibling is actually also a big thing. Or having, like, our family look different from, like, most of the families at school, the permission slip is different. Like, she's not self conscious about it, but I think she, like, knows it and it's a thing. So it's actually kind of interesting because it's not the only thing. You know, it's like she's piecing together, like, you know, know all of it. Like, the structure of everything, as every kid is doing. Right.
- [58:56]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, about that. I mean, you mentioned earlier that Paul obviously wanted you to remarry. Obviously Katie's encouraging you to date. Like, what was that process like for you? Because you can say it when he's there and say, okay, I understand that that's how you love me.
- [59:09]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [59:09]
Jay Shetty
In that forever way.
- [59:10]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [59:11]
Jay Shetty
But what does that actually look like for the individual who has to go on and try to love again? How did you even begin to open your heart and mind to that possibility?
- [59:18]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [59:19]
Jay Shetty
And when did it feel possible?
- [59:20]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I wasn't, like, trying to open my heart or so I was just, like. It was pure intuition. I was just sort of like, I'll know When I know, you know, for my wedding ring, I was like, I guess I'll take it off sometime. It's not today. And then, like, six months after Paul died, I went swimming and, like, took the ring off and then came out of the lake and was like, oh, I think I'm not gonna put it back on. And then, like, right now, I have, like, my engagement ring and Paul's wedding ring on this hand, which is interesting, but maybe I'll take them off. Like, if I were, like, dating someone really seriously, I think I would take off Paul's ring, you know? So I was in this, like, support group called Hot Young Widows Club.
- [60:00]
Jay Shetty
Oh, okay.
- [60:00]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
After Paul died, It was Nora McInerney made. It was incredible. And there was actually a lot of conversation in the group. It was a. It was on Facebook at the time. There's a lot of conversation about, like, what did your person say about dating again? Like, did you have this conversation or not? Because I think a lot of people who'd had that conversation felt really freed by it. Some people thought, like, like, what would they want me to do? Or, like, is it a transgression or is it a disloyalty? And I don't think so at all. Like, I think, like, not at all. But I think, like, I'll also always love Paul. It's really interesting, and I think, like, the analogy for me, I mean, it's just like, love is infinite. Like, there's totally enough love to, like, go around. And I think, for me, it's not a perfect analogy, but it feels a little bit like if someone's child had died and then they had another child, you would never think, like, oh, the. This child replaced the other child. Or do they have enough space to, like, love the. The new child? You'd be like, no, they're just different. Like, it's a little different when it's your partner, right? But I'm like, Paul. The way I think of it now is, like, paul's my family. Like, he's my family. His family's my family. Like, he's my family forever. And I absolutely, like, can fall in love, have fallen in love. Like, it's just, like, there's enough love to go around. You know, it's been, like, pretty easy in a way. And I think the grief part was actually the harder part. It's like, I needed to, like, heal, to be, like, ready and be, like, emotionally available for, like, anything. Like, I was just, like, parenting my kid and surviving, and then I became ready. Let me know if you Want to set me up?
- [61:37]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah.
- [61:38]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
They have to have one daughter younger than 11.
- [61:42]
Jay Shetty
Yes. Katie Newman's answer. Little sister. Got it. That's a good criteria. We're going to put it out on the show right now. Exactly. I'm hearing from you that it's. That it's that intuitive tell. It's not. Yeah. It's not something that you consciously pursue
- [61:54]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
or prepare, which, like, it's probably similar for a bunch of people. Right. Like, after someone gets divorced and is, like, going through the, like, devastation and, like, identity and like, what was what and what was my role? And it's just like, it's all an upheaval. Right. That's like, also so, like, terribly hard and so, so I don't know. Then it's like, yeah, when are you ready?
- [62:12]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, when are you ready? And I think that's the question that everyone keeps quizzing in their mind. But like you said, you can only know internally. It's not like a tactical.
- [62:21]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right.
- [62:22]
Jay Shetty
Practical thing that you can kind of put into a number of months or years. And. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't work that way.
- [62:28]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right.
- [62:29]
Jay Shetty
How do you define love today?
- [62:30]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I mean, I saw you talk about it actually on a clip where you were like, the person who loves you will never use your wounds against you. And then you talked about how your wife, like, holds no judgment for you. And I was like, of course, of course. Because you're you, like, and I don't mean you're Jay Shetty. I mean, like, you're you. You're the person they love. So, like, yeah, there's no judgment of whatever the thing is, there's just like, partnership. It doesn't mean you could like, endlessly hurt the person either. But, like, I don't know. That's part of it, I think. I think there is, like, an unconditionality to love, for sure. And at the same time, I think, like, that is more true for, like, children than adults. Like, you don't love adults unconditionally. Right. You, like, have boundaries that, like, adults, like, can't actually cross. But, like, as long as you can, like, work a relationship within that, like, real, like, partnership and spaciousness and like, like non judgment.
- [63:27]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, it's a hard question.
- [63:28]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
It's a really hard question. What would you say?
- [63:30]
Jay Shetty
I'm always changing my mind. I. I think there's so many nuances and facets to it that it's so. It's such a hard question. I think that's why we all struggle with it so Much in finding it and looking for it.
- [63:40]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
That's the answer too. Right. It's like I would also be like fun and growth and then it's like at the same time you're like. It's sort of like that thing where it's like, you know, when you know, like it's intuitive.
- [63:49]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. I mean ultimately it's teamwork and teamwork requires all those things you just said.
- [63:54]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [63:55]
Jay Shetty
Teamwork should be fun and it should have growth and it should have mutuality and it should have reciprocation and it should have connection and communicate and so teamwork just. It feels very simplistic but. But it gives you a good visual.
- [64:09]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. And at the same time like I do think it's like, I mean, you know, this but like obviously it's never going to be perfect either. Like there's something actually really romantic and like choosing and like choosing like on a daily basis, you know, like that's very romant.
- [64:24]
Jay Shetty
Yes.
- [64:24]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Of like sometimes one person's up, one person's down. Sometimes it's like, you know, difficult.
- [64:29]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [64:30]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You know, but similarly like that's your team.
- [64:33]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [64:35]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Exactly.
- [64:35]
Jay Shetty
And it's. It's shared.
- [64:37]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [64:37]
Jay Shetty
It's a shared experience, It's a shared life. It's a co Created life.
- [64:41]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [64:41]
Jay Shetty
It's co creation I think is so important and co holding and co everything.
- [64:48]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
While also like you're still like two beings. Like.
- [64:51]
Jay Shetty
Correct.
- [64:51]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You're you correct.
- [64:52]
Jay Shetty
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [64:54]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. It's complicated. I mean it's like, like it's a constant as you're saying this. It's like similarly to the like end of illusion.
- [64:59]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [64:59]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
End of history illusion. It's like it's never done and dusted. Like it's like, it's like constantly like work.
- [65:05]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wanted to talk to you a bit about this idea of. And I know you've spoken about this, this idea of like reimagining how we die because.
- [65:15]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [65:16]
Jay Shetty
It kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about the survivor or the beating cancer.
- [65:20]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [65:21]
Jay Shetty
Approach.
- [65:22]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [65:22]
Jay Shetty
My monk friend who, who passed away, like he, he was very positive and he almost just didn't let anyone in to what he was feeling and going through. And that was his version of how he dealt with it.
- [65:34]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [65:35]
Jay Shetty
And as far as I know from him, I believe he was happy with that.
- [65:39]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [65:39]
Jay Shetty
And then of course at the end of his life he needed support and help and everything and, and he. And he got that. I wonder what your take is on having obviously done this. Been A doctor has seen patients, been at grief groups. Like, when you think about this idea of people battling between letting go and giving up, and, like, what the difference is and what you do when you get a diagnosis and how you weigh up whether I should fight till the end or whether I'm giving up or actually am I just letting go. Like, can you help make sense of that to some degree?
- [66:12]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally. I mean, no is the answer. Yeah, I mean, I. I hear you about your friend, and it really is like two each his own. Like, people really have different ways of coping. Sleeping. It is a weird time to die in America, in history, because that sort of battle idea, death is very medicalized and very sort of western medicalized right now here. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that, but the battle metaphor is one of them. And another one is like, we have all of this technology available that is, like, you know, built for emergencies, but is getting offered to people who are, like, 90, you know, with, like, failing organs. I think there's so much taboo around talking about death and dying and meanwhile, also so much hunger to, like, crack it open and think about it. I think, like, suffering and dying are really hidden, like, from view.
- [67:11]
Jay Shetty
Yes.
- [67:11]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
The way that they haven't been across history for people, it's, like, really interesting to be like, oh, what's happening over there? Like, how are we supposed to talk about it? So I think there's sort of this, like, cultural force to, like, intervene to. Like, you know, anyone who's been through, like, a serious illness with someone has seen how much sort of, like, momentum there is toward, like, aggressive medical care. I think of it when you were saying, like, how do you choose whether to, like, you know, am I giving up? Am I beating it? I guess in my mind, I sort of think of it as, like, a thing is happening. Like, a thing is happening. It's like, now there is Parkinson's here, or now this person has metastatic cancer. And, like, it's going to play out the way it's gonna play out. And so, like, how do you, like, provide healthcare that's gonna make that the best possible? Like, extend life as long as possible. Extend functionality, like, as long as possible. Help people do the things that they wanna do that are important to them. But there is something some, like, building of, like, you can sort of choose healthcare within that to kind of, like, design your healthcare or, like, make your choices around what's important to you. But that requires, like, sort of facing up to, like, what is happening, what is possible. And then, like, Having the team who's taking care of you, like, also level with you about that, with their knowledge and experience. I mean, there's like two things, like, for. I'll give you practical tip about it, but if people are like, I am facing an illness, my family member has an illness, I want to be able to like, figure this out. But like, how on earth am I supposed to do that? One like thing people can do is ask for a palliative care team to be part of their care. Yes, people get really scared around the word palliative. So like, palliative care hospice is a teeny part of it. So hospice is like palliative care for people who, who are actually dying soon. Like, you literally have to be certified, like very likely, more likely than not, that you would die within six months. That's hospice. Then there's palliative care, which is huge. You could be like a 22 year old with Hodgkin's lymphoma who's going to be cured in two years and is like really struggling and suffering and they'll take care of you too. Or you could be someone with heart failure where it goes up and down and up and down for years, and you could have palliative care take care of you. And basically it's, it's a concurrent care model alongside whatever other care you're getting, alongside the oncologist, alongside the neurologist or whomever is taking care of you. It's actually a medical specialty that only was recognized in the US 20 years ago. It grew up just like a little bit before that. But they combine like chaplaincy, nurses, social workers, like doctors or other clinicians, and then they take care of your family too. So like, when you walk in the door, they're like, who else is taking care of you? Who else is with you? Hey, does this person need something? It's so incredible. It's like if you could just dissolve the health healthcare system, which Walter Cronkite said is neither healthy nor caring nor a system, you would just like start with palliative care and then just like build everything else around that. There's a lot of like, misunderstandings about what palliative care is, but if anybody's struggling and isn't sure where to turn for that, they're so incredible. And you could just ask, you just be like, can I have a palliative care specialist be part of what we're doing?
- [70:22]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that.
- [70:25]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [70:25]
Jay Shetty
It feels like there's all these, these hidden things that Exist already that. That we miss out. And even. Even, like, the. What was it? The Hot widows.
- [70:33]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Hot Young widows. Yeah.
- [70:37]
Jay Shetty
Even the camp you were talking about earlier, when. Before we started recording.
- [70:40]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. Katie's at Camp Cassim. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [70:43]
Jay Shetty
And just there's all these things out there that.
- [70:45]
Kal Penn
Yeah.
- [70:45]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Like, people.
- [70:46]
Jay Shetty
Humans are doing so many beautiful.
- [70:47]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [70:48]
Jay Shetty
So many beautiful things to. To help people at different stages. And you almost don't know. And. And hopefully you. Hopefully people who are in the position know, but if they don't, it's. Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing that. I think this is such an important conversation that I feel like you're such a big part of. Like, how do we help people take back their dignity when they're dying? Like, what does. What does that actually mean? What does that look like?
- [71:10]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I think that the broad strokes answer is, like, don't forget that they're a person. Don't forget that they're still them. Think about what you would want in that situation. You know, I think, like. Like we were saying, it's like illness and dying can be sort of so flattening of, like, your humanity, your complexity. It's so sort of, like, undignified. Right. You're, like. You become sort of, like, infantilized, you know, or if you're in a hospital or if you're somewhere. If you're in a healthcare facility, you're literally naked, you know, you're not even wearing your own clothes. So just as much as, like, people can protect your privacy, ask you what's important to you, make things beautiful, like, sensually, you know, like, there are flowers here, there's music here. Like, people are touching you. Like, people are looking you in the eye. Like, I don't know. I could say a million other examples. I also think, like, respecting what someone, like, cares about, like, you know, when people are dying and they're trying to make a difficult decision, like Paul did. I wrote about this in the end of Paul's book, but he was very, very sick and ultimately got rushed to the ICU because he was suffering so much and couldn't breathe well, and then had to make this decision about. About whether to be intubated, like, whether to be on a breathing machine. A lot of people who are sick end up sort of with a North Star of what's really important to them. I want to be with my family. I want to be free of pain. I want to make it to my child's graduation. For Paul, his was. I want to be mentally lucid. Like, I want to be Mentally lucid to, like, be with my family and keep writing as long as I can write. He literally was, like, writing up until, like, two to three days before he died. And so that decision about. About whether to be intubated became really clear.
- [72:52]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [72:53]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You know, where he's like, there's a chance if I get intubated, then I will not be extubated. And instead, like, we'll stop life support. And so for him, it was like, the way to, like, maintain his dignity was like. Or align with his values was like, okay, if this is the end of mental lucidity, then this is the end. And, like, we'll listen to you.
- [73:13]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [73:14]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
You know, like. Like, great. Like, we'll make that happen.
- [73:17]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [73:17]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Which was when that was actually happening. It was, like, incredibly confusing, incredibly painful, incredibly so hard. But also, like, so there was a grounding thing, which was like, what's important to Paul?
- [73:29]
Jay Shetty
When I hear that, I think about how usually when we're losing someone, we're worrying about how it affects us.
- [73:35]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [73:35]
Jay Shetty
And they're the one who's going through lost too.
- [73:39]
Ashley I
Right.
- [73:40]
Kal Penn
It's shared.
- [73:40]
Jay Shetty
It's shared. It is two ways.
- [73:42]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Right.
- [73:42]
Jay Shetty
But it's almost like I think us, all of us naturally would want the person to stay. Sure.
- [73:47]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally.
- [73:48]
Jay Shetty
But there's a independence and decision that that person also needs clarity on. And like you said, it may be, yes, I want to do this, but his one was so specific to his purpose and mission in the world.
- [74:00]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally. And at the same time, like, medically, like, families can go through real trauma, like literal ptsd, from, like, participating in medical care or having, like, their loved one get care that wasn't in line with their values or that they ultimately thought, like, oh, that did cause them unnecessary suffering. So it's like, there's always a trade off, you know, like, it's like it can hurt everybody.
- [74:23]
Jay Shetty
Do you believe anything needs to change in the standard protocol of how doctors deliver terminal news?
- [74:29]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Totally. When I was in medical school, which was 20 years ago, they were just starting to teach. Like, hey, make sure you attend to the emotion in the room. So, like, if someone is crying, pause. Allow some space. It'll feel like a long time to you. Doesn't feel like a long time to them. And then you can even say, I see the tears in your eyes and just leave it. Or you can say, this looks like it's feeling really sad. You know what I mean? Like, we were learning those skills. It was really interesting because they were teaching it to us. Like, they were skills because they actually are. And then you have a little mnemonic about, like, attend to the emotion in the room, but it's real. Like, it's. It's you. It becomes part of you. I think, you know, there was a study of doctors that said half of doctors said they had, like, given a prognosis that was rosier than what their actual medical opinion was, which is so interesting. It's like, even in the hospital, it's like you sort of make this assumption of, like, what hope means to people. Like, hope means longer life. So I'm going to say that I'm going to keep them on the outer bounds of what could be possible. But I think what many people respond to, like, what I've ended up learning is a really good way to share with patients or even frame it to yourself, is thinking a. About, like, prognostication, for example, as a range. So, like, instead of saying, like, you have six months to live, because, like, that's the median. And the studies, you say, like, it's likely a few months to a few years, which is, like, broader but more accurate, really. And that's, like, enough information for someone to decide, like, do they want to have a baby, like, during this illness or not, you know? And then similarly, another way that we've been trained to tell people, that we're training our students to tell people, is a model where you say you share the best case, the worst case, and the most likely case. And actually, people can have a lot. People get a lot of information from that where they can decide, like, how much risk do I want to take to aim for the best, to prepare for the worst? And then they're kind of like, well, I'm still allowing space for the best, and in the meantime, I'll make sure my family knows what I want when I'm gone.
- [76:34]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [76:34]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So, like, I think, like, doctors are being taught to allow just, like, space, space, space, space, and more like, accuracy.
- [76:43]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really helpful to hear. That's helpful to hear how humans process.
- [76:49]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. It's also, like, not just one conversation. Like, of course, the first time you hear the news, like, then you don't hear anything else. Right. Then you have to hear it again. You know, you heard from different people. But, yes, it needs to change, and it is changing. Thank goodness.
- [77:04]
Jay Shetty
I think right now in the world, we're talking a lot about aging well.
- [77:07]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [77:08]
Jay Shetty
What's your sense of what it means to die?
- [77:11]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Well, I think that living well is the same. I think, like, the way to not be afraid of dying is to feel that you've had a meaningful life. That's what I think. I think that's what ended up being true for Paul. And I'll just tell you, like, something beautiful that, like, Paul felt that. I hope I feel, too. Cause I also think this sort of encompasses, like, a good death is like, similarly, if you're lucky enough to, like, have the tools to, like, build a life that you felt is meaningful. I think Paul ended up feeling, like. Not to sound cheesy, but I love this. He ended up feeling, I'm not dying, feeling that I'm losing everything. I'm dying, feeling that I have everything. Which I think is so cool, you know? So. I don't know. Hasn't happened to me yet, so it'll be a surprise.
- [78:00]
Jay Shetty
That's a really powerful answer and quite an unfathomable mindset because you could argue he. He could have felt he didn't have everything. Like, he hadn't had Katie yet and, you know, like, hadn't had that experience and. Which seems like the natural thing we all feel at that time, where it's like, I haven't done this yet or haven't seen this or want to make it to this and sort of really
- [78:21]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
say, that will always be true.
- [78:23]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [78:24]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
That'll be true for everyone.
- [78:25]
Jay Shetty
But he was able to say he had everything. He felt that.
- [78:28]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. Or enough. Like, enough, enough.
- [78:31]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. Enough. Yeah.
- [78:32]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
I struggled with it later, too. And then a friend was like, what if it was enough? And I was like, what if it was enough?
- [78:39]
Jay Shetty
Lucy, thank you so much.
- [78:40]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Thanks for having me.
- [78:41]
Jay Shetty
So grateful, truly. I'm so grateful to meet you. So grateful for your openness. So grateful to learn about Katie and Paul and. And yourself.
- [78:48]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
And thank you.
- [78:50]
Jay Shetty
I'm truly in awe of your resilience and courage.
- [78:56]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
That's, like, wild to hear you say that.
- [78:58]
Jay Shetty
It's true. I really mean it.
- [79:00]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah. What a treat. I mean, truly.
- [79:01]
Orderly Meds Advertiser
Yeah.
- [79:02]
Jay Shetty
No, it's melted my heart. Truly. I really mean that. Thank you.
- [79:07]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Yeah.
- [79:08]
Jay Shetty
Such a joy. If you love this episode, you'll love my conversation with Malala yousuf s on how she transformed extreme adversity into global purpose. I was hanging out with some friends,
- [79:20]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
and what was, like, supposed to be a fun night just took a sharp turn, and immediately I froze.
- [79:29]
Kal Penn
250 years ago, America made a promise of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Since 1903, Harley Davidson has been living it out on the open road at the next exit ramp with old friends, new ones, and the next generation of riders. Because the best part of any promise is keeping it. Harley Davidson Motorcycles ride.
- [79:59]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Hey, did you know Dietzen Watson has
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Orderly Meds Advertiser
been family owned for over 85 years? To us, that means it's more than a big business.
- [80:05]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
It's personal.
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Orderly Meds Advertiser
We make our premium meats and cheeses the right way, even if it's slower
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Ashley I
or inconvenient or hard.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
Because that's how you get the highest quality.
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Orderly Meds Advertiser
If it's not good enough for our family, it's not good enough for yours. And while others cut corners, we keep raising the bar.
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Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
So if you see the Dietz Watson
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Orderly Meds Advertiser
name, you'll know every slice has my family's seal of approval. Dietz Watson. It's a family thing since 1939.
- [80:30]
Kal Penn
Hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [80:58]
Dr. Lucy Kalanithi
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.