Tim Ferriss: Feeling Stuck Right Now? (Use THIS 10-Minute Exercise to Stop Overthinking and Take Action)

Summary

On Purpose with Jay Shetty – Podcast Summary Episode: Tim Ferriss: Feeling Stuck Right Now? (Use THIS 10-Minute Exercise to Stop Overthinking and Take Action)
Date: April 20, 2026
Host: Jay Shetty
Guest: Tim Ferriss

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Episode Overview

In this rich, wide-ranging conversation, Jay Shetty welcomes Tim Ferriss—bestselling author, world-class podcaster, and relentless experimenter in personal development—back to “On Purpose.” The episode centers around practical tools for getting unstuck, making better decisions, and finding more meaning by focusing on both achievement and acceptance. Tim shares actionable science-backed strategies covering brain health, habit formation, productivity, relationship mastery, and philosophy. The tone is candid, curious, and often humorous, highlighting Ferriss’s honesty about his struggles, successes, and current fascinations.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Tim’s Current Fascinations: Brain Health, Bioelectric Medicine, and Philosophy

[03:18]

• Tim is deeply interested in cognitive longevity, fuel sources for the brain, and early interventions for neurodegenerative diseases, especially given family history.
• Bioelectric medicine excites him: “Microchips and electricity over pills... There’s a burgeoning field that can be applied a million different ways.”
• Shares his personal experience with transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) using the accelerated SAINT protocol—a protocol showing promising, rapid reduction in treatment-resistant OCD and anxiety.
  • Quote: “I have gone from basically like an 8 or 9 out of 10 severity with generalized anxiety to like a 0 or a 1 for... four or five months.” (Tim Ferriss, [06:43])
• Emphasizes the need to balance achievement (Western self-improvement) and acceptance (Eastern approaches), referencing the book Already Free by Bruce Tift.

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2. Cognitive Fuel: The Overlooked Foundation

[10:07, 11:54]

• “The mind, body separation, duality... is a falsehood. Everything is interrelated.” (Tim)
• Tim details three alternative cognitive fuels:
  • Ketones: Useful for brain function, especially in Alzheimer’s.
  • Lactate: The brain can use lactate, produced during high-intensity exercise (e.g., the Norwegian 4x4 VO2 Max protocol), as both fuel and signal for brain health.
  • Glucose Sensitivity & Intermittent Fasting: Tim highlights the power of IF for improving insulin sensitivity and energy.
• “Before you try to riddle yourself with journaling out of your issues, maybe you’re just starving.” (Tim, [14:33])

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3. Bioelectric Medicine and Ancient Wisdom

[21:17, 25:41]

• Explains practical advances like vagus nerve stimulation—via devices the size of a fish oil capsule—for treating chronic inflammation or psychiatric conditions.
• East meets West: Jay and Tim discuss how ancient techniques (e.g., sun salutations, acupuncture) align with modern neuroscience findings.
  • “One of the ways... to stimulate fibers in the vagus nerve is with placement on the ear... The placement corresponds to where TCM practitioners put the needles.” (Tim, [27:13])

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4. Habit Formation: How to Start and Stick it Out

[33:53]

• Tim’s strategy: Set realistic expectations up front. “Do less than you think you can do, because that is going to contribute to endurance and longevity... If you think you can do 20 minutes, do 10.” ([34:10])
• Habits take time (e.g., two weeks for meditation) and setting the “stock chart” of expected progress reduces abandonment.
• Use “stakes” (bets, social accountability) to cement new habits.

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5. Achievement vs. Acceptance: Harmonizing Two Approaches

[50:08]

• Tim critiques both the “always achieve” and “total acceptance” extremes. Instead, he advises cycling between “greyhound sprint” (full focus) and “deep rest”—what his friend Josh Waitzkin calls “avoiding the simmering six.”
  • Quote: “Avoid the simmering six. You’re either off... or you’re on. Everything in between will just murder you psycho emotionally.” ([53:25])
• Emphasizes picking a “primary mission”—“You need a bigger yes”—to avoid mindless busyness or doomscrolling.
• On setting boundaries (e.g., no business on weekends): “Those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” ([59:27])

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6. The Power of Subtraction & “Doing the Opposite”

[91:46, 94:27]

• Tim challenges the default of self-improvement by addition: “What if I could only subtract instead of add?”
• Applies to everything from intermittent fasting (removing food) to cutting toxic commitments, to productivity (“hunt antelope, not field mice” for real achievement).
  • “Are you hunting antelope or field mice?” ([84:12])
• “If it’s not working, try the opposite.” ([96:53])—examples include sales and podcast business practices.

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7. Acceptance in Practice: Meditation and Relationships

[72:13]

• Tim on meditation: Observing discomfort, not suppressing or fixing it, cultivates real acceptance.
• In relationships: Adopts Terry Real’s principle that “objective reality doesn’t exist” in arguments. Focus on emotional truth and curiosity rather than “winning.”
  • “Trying to be curious before you react—that is... the key piece.” ([75:45])
• Nonviolent communication, setting expectations, and balancing energy/resources in the relationship are critical.

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8. Tools for Living “Offense, Not Defense”

[58:06]

• Distinguish whether you’re playing “offense or defense”: Are you creating, or responding to others’ agendas?
• Prioritize mornings or blocks for creative work (“make before you manage”).
• Protect your attention like the top 1%: “The absolute sacredness of focus... they are militant about firewalling their attention.” ([113:09])

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9. Audience Q&A: Quick Insights

Selected Questions:

• What advice made you the most money?
  • “Don't aim to be the best, aim to be the only.” ([110:14])
• Difference between efficiency and cutting corners?
  • “Cutting corners implies aiming for short-term gain, but long-term side effects.” ([109:17])
• What do top 1% obsess over?
  • Focus and saying no.
• Emotional cost of constant self-improvement?
  • “You always think you’re broken. And that’s too high a cost for anyone to pay.” ([116:09])
• If someone feels behind in life?
  • “It’s never too late.”
  • “Zoom out... cosmic insignificance therapy.” ([119:48])

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10. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “You can improve the mind by working on the body, and you can improve the body by working on the mind. They go together.” – Tim Ferriss ([18:16])
• “If you just get off of social media for two weeks, it will do the same amount of good for a lot of folks as 10 years of therapy.” ([67:34])
• “The emotional cost of constantly trying to improve yourself in a vacuum... is that you always think you’re broken.” ([116:09])
• “To experience the full richness of being human, you have to embrace being human. And a very large part of that is emotional.” ([124:29])

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Bioelectric Medicine / TMS Effect: [03:18] – [09:17]
• Cognitive Fuel / VO2 Max / Lactate: [10:07] – [17:09]
• Importance of Subtraction & “The Opposite”: [91:46] – [97:45]
• Setting Expectations for Habits: [33:53] – [39:01]
• Oscillating Between Sprints and Rests: [50:26] – [55:30]
• Acceptance in Relationships: [72:05] – [81:46]
• Quickfire Q&A: [110:10] – [125:10]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Examine your “fuel”—optimize body and brain before overthinking life challenges.
• Try subtracting (not adding) as a first step to improvement—eliminate distractions, foods, commitments.
• Start habits by setting realistic expectations and beginning smaller than you think necessary.
• Oscillate between deep work and true rest—eliminate the “simmering six.”
• Protect your focus aggressively; learn to say “no.”
• In relationships, remember: emotional truth trumps “objective reality.” Set clear expectations and communicate.
• Regularly reflect: “Am I hunting antelope or field mice?”
• When feeling stuck or behind, zoom out and remember: it’s never too late—cosmic perspective helps.

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Resources & References Mentioned

• Books: Already Free by Bruce Tift, The Art of Possibility by Benjamin Zander, Fierce Intimacy by Terry Real, Letters from a Stoic by Seneca, 4,000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman, The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker, 1000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly
• Research/Science: TMS, Ketones in Alzheimer’s, VO2 Max and lactate, Nonviolent communication (Marshall Rosenberg), Intermittent Fasting (Mark Mattson)
• Tim’s Questions PDF: Tim.blog/17

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Distilled Wisdom:

“Don’t believe everything you think.” (Tim’s best advice, [123:29])
“Achievement without acceptance” is an empty pursuit. ([123:42])
“If you can only do one thing this week, do something to improve your relationships—even the smallest thing.” ([119:42])

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Summary prepared to capture both Jay and Tim’s candid, practical, and deeply human tone. This episode is an essential listen for anyone seeking modern tools for living—and leading—a more intentional, effective, and peaceful life.

Transcript

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[Tim Ferriss]

of social media for two weeks, it will do the same amount of good for a lot of folks as 10 years of therapy.

[Jay Shetty]

What advice has made you the most money?

[Tim Ferriss]

Don't aim to be the best, Aim to be the only.

[Jay Shetty]

What's something that the top 1% obsess over that most people never even think about?

[Tim Ferriss]

The absolute sacredness of.

[Jay Shetty]

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Today's guest is someone that I've been waiting to re interview for nine years. I'm speaking about the one and only Tim Ferriss, one of the most influential thinkers in personal development and performance of all time. Tim's the bestselling author of the four Hour Workweek, host of the Tim Ferriss show with over a billion downloads. If you're someone who wants to Learn how to make better decisions, overcome fear, and design a life that actually works for you. You won't want to miss this. Please welcome to On Purpose, Tim Ferriss. Let's dive in because there's so much to extrapolate today with you. And I wanted to start off by asking you, like, what's a thought that reappears in your mind often today? Or what are you fascinated by today that kind of steals your attention and gets you excited because you've done so many things, you've accomplished so many things, you're so active in so many ways. I wonder what fascinates you now.

[Tim Ferriss]

I can tell you literally was getting some texts on the way here from a few people I've been interacting with a lot. One is Tommy Wood, Dr. Tommy Wood, who's a neuroscientist, also a phenomenal athlete. Interesting combination looking at, and we'll probably get into this more deeply, but different fuel sources for the brain and extending your, your cognitive Runway. So in life, if you, as I for instance, have a lot of neurodegenerative disease in your family, whether that's Alzheimer's, Parkinson's or otherwise, what can you do now? Assuming a lot of these conditions take decades to fully develop, how can you intervene early? So that's a question that's occupying my mind and have found, I think, some very, very compelling options that are not new to me. But if you go through the scientific literature and you talk to people on the front lines, you do find some interesting options. So we can talk about those. I would say bioelectric medicine, which ties into this. In other words, microchips and electricity over pills. A lot of medications have off target effects. So you have a problem or you want to prevent a problem, you take a drug. Very often it is not as specific as we would like. There are side effects. There's a burgeoning field of bioelectric medicine that can be applied a million different ways. We probably should talk about it, but I'll give you an example. Here's a crazy example. There's a technology called tms, Transcranial Magnetic stimulation that has existed for decades. And it's basically using a magnetic field to affect brain activity. So they put a paddle close to your head. There are different ways to do it. Might be a cap with a few other things and you can either excite or inhibit different parts of the brain. Slightly more complicated, but let's just assume the case. And a scientist named Nolan Williams out of Stanford, along with others developed something called the SAINT protocol, which is an accelerated version. So instead of taking, let's just say TMS treatments that you would do once or twice or three times a week over five months, they compress it all into one week, five days, and you're getting zapped 10 times a day on the hour, every hour, each of those five days. And what they end up seeing in many instances, and there's good published peer reviewed studies, people can look at 70% remission of treatment resistant depression that is durable. You start to see impacts on things like ocd, generalized anxiety disorder. But one thing that I experimented with recently, this is maybe four months ago, because I have diagnosed pretty severe ocd, which I think can be a superpower, but can also be a super handicap also. Just look at my family, who knows how much of it is nature versus nurture. But generalized anxiety disorder, pretty high. And that can be a helpful monkey on the back for getting a lot done. But there's a hell of a lot of collateral damage. Right. So I wanted to see if I could dial back both of those. Would I lose my edge or would I actually improve my edge? I just wouldn't be holding onto the blade of the knife. Right. And I went through this experimental protocol which is one day. So instead of taking a week off of work, one day where you preload. And there's science behind this with something called D Cyclocerine. It's an antibiotic that used to be used for tuberculosis, among other things. Put in a lozenge in your mouth and then an hour later you start these stimulations. You do one day, three minute stimulations on the hour. And I have gone from basically like an 8 or 9 out of 10 severity with generalized anxiety to like a 0 or a 1 for how long? For four or five months.

[Jay Shetty]

Now you cannot from that one day.

[Tim Ferriss]

From that one day. Wow. It is incredible. Does it help? Does it hurt? The dose does matter, right? You can overdo it. But this is a combination of pharmaceuticals to help with neuroplasticity and then brain stimulation. So I've been looking very closely at bioelectric medicine. I think this is. And if I try not to do too much but pat myself on the back a little bit, say, look at the four hour body and then the subsequent 10, 15 years. A lot of that played out and ended up being very, very highly reinforced by science. I'm placing a lot of my bets attentionally and then on the more philosophical side, but intensely practical. I don't think philosophy can be inert and kind of flaccid. If you choose the wrong approach. But ultimately, if you're trying to decide on values, you're not going to do a randomized control trial on that. Right. You have to find your way. And fortunately, people have been attempting to do this for millennia. And I would say that in the last few years especially, there's a great book called Already Free, I think it is, by Bruce Tift that discusses kind of two complimentary approaches, which are the, let's just say developmental achievement approaches that Western psychotherapy might take or self help broadly, how do I improve myself? How do I change my circumstances? But then on the opposite side, a perhaps let's call it more Buddhist approach, although it's not unique to Buddhists or Buddhism alone. The acceptance piece. Right. Recognizing what is, allowing what is. And it's a balancing act to do both. But I've been so, I would say for decades, most of my life focused on the achievement piece. And there's a lot to be said for it, a lot of upside, but paying also attention to the approaches, the practices that cultivate the other side. Because guess what? None of us have as much control as we might like to think. Especially once you add in other humans. Sorry, guys, that's an illusion. That's an illusion. So I would say those are a few of the things that are very, very present for me.

[Jay Shetty]

I love it. You've just given us the contents page of our conversation. It's brilliant. This is. This is what I enjoy the most. That's fascinating.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Do you. If we dive into some of those a bit.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, for sure. And I. My hope. And I also said this before we hit record. It's like I don't have anything to pitch or sell. I really am excited about some of these things that I'm exploring though. So if I can give people very specific concrete recommendations, then I'll be that in some way expand their thinking or help them, then I'm thrilled.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. No, I'm really grateful for you to coming on. Let's dive into cognitive fuel then to go first. What do we currently do or what do we currently know know that we use for cognitive fuel? And then the new approaches that you're looking at, how are they so different? As you said, they have less side effects. We're talking about potentially in terms of fuel first.

[Tim Ferriss]

Caveat. Not a doctor, don't play one on the Internet. So talk to your physicians. However, what I will say is it's helpful to think of the brain like you'd think of musculature.

[Ad Host]

Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

The mind, body separation, duality. Is. Is a complete falsehood. So everything is really, really tightly interrelated. What I will say is that if we look at the extremes to inform the mean, this is something I like to use as a heuristic. Right. You can learn a lot by studying the extremes in athletics, in business, the best and the worst outcomes. And that tells you a lot about the middle, but not the other way around. Like, if you study the average, this, the ideal customer, the A, B or C in the middle, it doesn't actually help you solve the edge cases. All right, so if we look at, let's just say, Alzheimer's, some people, some scientists and doctors refer to Alzheimer's as type 3 diabetes. Why? Because the brain, and there are many factors that go into this, can end up in a state where it's very bad at utilizing glucose, insulin, insensitivity. You're basically diabetic in your brain. And I'm simplifying here. But for instance, and I've done this with relatives of mine with Alzheimer's, you give them an exogenous ketone supplement of the right kind, give them a little shot, and I'll do it with them so they're not freaked out within 20 minutes. Their sentences are longer, their rate of speech is faster. In some instances, there's something called the clock test, for instance, where you can look at the severity of Alzheimer's or other conditions by having someone attempt to draw a clock and they just can't do it, and boom, like some type of stage magic, 30 minutes later, they can draw a clock.

[Jay Shetty]

Crazy.

[Tim Ferriss]

So what's going on? Ketones are an alternate fuel source. And if you ever fast, if you ever experiment with intermittent fasting, which we can also come back to. Another thing that has my attention. If you cultivate your ability to use ketones, suddenly you have this very compelling alternate fuel source. I'll give you a third one, though, that is new to me, even though if I look back at my experience in life through sports, I'm like, ah, okay, that helps connect some dots. Lactate. If you ever have done a bunch of cycling or you go in the gym and you get that burn. All right, well, a big part of that is lactic acid or lactate. Turns out the brain can really use that not only as a fuel, but it's also a signaling. It's almost. It's a signal or messenger that can produce all of these changes in the brain. And there is, for instance, Tommy Wood introduced me to this. The Norwegian 4x4 people can look this up. Norwegian 4x4 is effect, in effect, doing. It's VO2 max training. And we can explain what that is, but it's not really important right now. Basically, four minutes of incredibly hard, let's say stationary biking, you're Getting up to 85, 90% of your max heart rate. Like in the last, in the last minute of those four, you don't think you're going to make it. Right. Basically, you're running away from wolves.

[Jay Shetty]

Okay.

[Tim Ferriss]

And then you take three to four minutes off and you repeat that again and you do four cycles. So you're doing four minutes on, let's just call it four minutes off, four minutes on for four rounds. If you do that. There's a study conducted three times a week, and I think it was for six months. The effects on your brain, which includes some plausible volumetric changes, like certain structures in your brain, like the hippocampus, actually grow. Right. One of the primary areas affected by Alzheimer's. Those effects extend out for five years from six months of training three times a week. What is going on?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, what is going on?

[Tim Ferriss]

The VO2 Max is just an indicator of the work that you're putting in. Okay, well, why does that kind of work matter? Because steady state aerobics, walking for long distances doesn't do it. And there are people, credible people who focus on this, who think that lactate is the main driver. So, for instance, this morning before I came here, I was like, well, I'd like to have a little bit of extra energy. So I did a weight training workout where each of my sets, with leg press or leg extension or whatever, large muscle groups. I just turned on a music track that lasts four to five minutes. And I was like, all right, I can't stop for four to five minutes and it's going to be really painful. And that's it. Because I think that the cycling itself doesn't necessarily have any magic to it. Like you could use rowing. The intensity, it's the lactic acid, it's the actual concentration in the blood. Those, I would say, are three interesting fuels to consider. And I'm sure we'll come back to this. But like, sometimes you don't have a problem solving issue. Sometimes you don't have a quandary in your life that you can think your way out of. You have a fuel issue issue. So before you try to riddle yourself with journaling out of all of your issues, maybe you're just starving. And that could mean you need food, could mean you need to improve your insulin sensitivity, maybe look at intermittent fasting. Which completely blew my mind with how it changed my insulin sensitivity and biomarkers over the course of four weeks. It really shocked me. And. Or. And these are actually compatible. Looking at building up your ketogenic machinery, which you can do in a whole bunch of ways.

[Jay Shetty]

I love the point you're making about fuel, and I was definitely someone. I always felt like when I came to this work, I had a really strong mind because of my previous work, but I hadn't really worked on my body. And it was when I married my wife, who's a nutritionist and a dietitian.

[Tim Ferriss]

Good choice.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah. Very useful. Extremely useful for many reasons. But the body became a part of the conversation because she was so much about physical health as well as mental and emotional health. And I think I was so in the mental, emotional sphere that I kind of disregarded the body to some degree only to realize how much I was limiting myself based on this fuel point. And even to speak to a very recent occurrence probably a few years back. I was experiencing fatigue and low energy, although I was positive and living my purpose and felt meaning in my life and had beautiful relationships, but I was just tired and. And I remember getting my biomarkers done and everything, and it turned out to be something really basic. But they were just like, your vitamin D is at a 10, right? It should be at a 60 to 100. Like, you know, for the optimal. But you're at a 10. Like, how did I not understand that something as small as this could be affecting my energy? It wasn't just about meaning. And I think you're so right. People are journaling really hard. They're trying to find their purpose. They're trying to do this thing mentally. And half the time, it's like, you're not giving yourself enough fuel to even be able to have that breakthrough.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. It doesn't matter how good you are at driving the race car if no one's done oil change, no one's checked the tires.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

No one's put proper fuel in the tank, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that those levels are important to check. Right. Like you mentioned the vitamin D in a lot of my friends who have complained about anxiety or depression or fatigue, they might do a micronutrient test and realize that they're deficient in trace minerals, very common, whether it's copper, selenium, or other. And it's like, okay, here, try, like, eat a handful of Brazil nuts once a day for a week and let me know how it goes. And they're like, I have energy. I'm like, well, yeah, okay, great. Then you can check off the selenium. So. Which I think can be very reassuring for folks, right? Because if they've been banging their head against the wall trying to quote, unquote, figure out X and they're just not making progress, it's not necessarily because your brain isn't working. You're not smart enough. Well, maybe it is because your brain isn't working, but you can fix it holistically through looking at your mind and body as one thing.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Certainly through, say, meditation, you can exert all sorts of interesting effects on your body. Right through the breath as this sort of interface of the autonomous autonomic nervous system. So it stands to reason you can do the other. Right. It's bi directional. Like, if you want to, you can improve the mind by working on the body, and you can improve the body by working on the mind. They go together.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely.

[Tim Ferriss]

So that's a lot of what has my attention. I mean, there's a lot of nonsense floating around out there about vagus nerve stimulation. But if you talk to certain scientists, like Dr. Kevin Tracy, who wrote a great book, I think it's a great book called the Great Nerve, all about the vagus nerve, which is really like two transatlantic cables on either side of the neck with roughly 90 to 100,000 fibers on either side. He's got a great story in the book where he's discussing all of this research related to, in effect, activating something called the inflammatory reflex and preventing overwhelming cytokine storms. For Covid. For you name it. And you can stimulate the vagus nerve a bunch of different ways. You could have an implant. There's actually something called famotidine over the counter. Talk to your doctor. Don't just start taking this. But it's an antacid, I believe, and that actually has some incredible effects related to that. But he was on stage talking about this at one point. And the Dalai Lama and the Dalai Lama's contingent happened to be at the same event. And the Dalai Lama got up afterwards because Kevin was talking about the vagus nerve. Right. Just for simplicity, singular. And the Dalai Lama asked a question after the presentation. The translator translated and said, his Holiness would like to know, are there two of these that run down the neck? And he said, yes, actually there are two. And the Dalai Lama kind of chuckled. And there's a practice that they have that involves meditating on these two channels that run down the neck and then basically innervate the rest of the Body, including the abdomen. And it's like. That's interesting.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah. I. I find. I find that east west connection, like, so fascinating. And the. How the science is being able to prove these ancient techniques. I remember when I was talking to someone else on the show, it was that idea of them talking about circadian rhythms and looking at the sun first thing in the morning, etcetera, which, of course, you've talked about as well. And I was talking about how in the monastery in India, it was always about sun salutation. So Surya Namaskar is the Sanskrit version of sun salutations. And that was the practice. You woke up in the morning and you paid respects to the sun, which meant making, you know, eye contact with the sun and allowing the sun rays to enter. And I'm like, all of these. They didn't have the language that we have, but the technique existed far back then.

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Talk to me about the.

[Jay Shetty]

Did you call it the bioelectric Bioelectric medicine Medicine? Yeah, because you were talking about chips versus pills.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, chips. Or electricity versus pills.

[Jay Shetty]

So explain to me what you mean by chips.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, just microchips. So actually using a device which could be, in the case of. I think it's Set Point Medical, for instance, has an implant which is the size of a Omega 3 capsule. I think it's called Set Point Medical. They were on the COVID of the New York Times for this, and it just got approved. Goes in the neck. It's actually a very fast procedure, and it applies stimulation to the vagus nerve, which runs right along the carotid arteries, basically. And it is used for, say, rheumatoid arthritis. It gives some people incredible relief where they might have been incapacitated, laying on a couch, can't get up, have to elevate their legs, can't walk more than a few steps. They get this implant, and then boom, like two months later, they're running upstairs on a tour through Europe with their husband. I mean, that's a real example.

[Jay Shetty]

It doesn't solve it, it doesn't reverse it. It just provides.

[Tim Ferriss]

This is. That's a very good question. I shouldn't speak to that because I don't know enough about rheumatoid arthritis and what it looks like in terms of development over long periods of time. What I will say is that broadly speaking, this is controversial, but it's not that controversial. The few scientists I interact with who look at this very closely, I think a lot of our psychiatric disorders, depression, anxiety, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, some of Them, you may be predisposed to those things genetically, But I believe a lot of those chronic conditions start with acute infection. Much like long Covid or long Lyme disease, there's some acute immune system insult, often an infection that leads to then chronic neuroinflammation. And when you address that neuroinflammation, a lot of the symptoms can abate, which is why there have been studies looking at just giving people who are depressed anti inflammatories. And I'm not saying, by the way, anyone listening or watching that you should go gobble anti inflammatories. There's side effects. Don't do that. But maybe there are other ways to address excessive inflammation. And it turns out vagus nerve stimulation could be one of those. There are other approaches. I can't recommend any current device out there. I'm interacting with this Scandinavian researcher who's amazing. I'm hoping that at least in the U.S. maybe in the next six months, something will be available that people can grab. I'll come back to that in terms of ancient insight being corroborated by science, because there's a really cool tie in breathing. Do breath work? There are different types of breath work that absolutely seem to have an effect on the inflammatory reflex. And that's actually part of the reason why I think folks often see benefits from meditation practice, especially if they do it twice a day, like 10 to 20 minutes per session. After about two weeks, it's so consistent, right? It's like for the first week, they're like, I don't know if this is doing anything. And then after like 7 to 10 days, there seems to be something that happens. And people are like, I'm so much calmer. I'm so much this. All right, There are a million different ways you could explain it, but let's throw one out there that doesn't really. I haven't really heard discussed that the rhythmic breathing that you entrain when you're doing that kind of sitting activates the vagus nerve. If you use a stimulator, guess what? You use it five minutes in the morning, say for the ear, five minutes in the morning, five minutes at night. Because the effects last about 12 hours. Okay. And it takes about two weeks for most people to notice everything settle. Well, that's a strange coincidence. And if you do box breathing or something like that, for people who are maybe tuning in, who are like, oh, meditation. Oh God, like, if I have to sit and focus on my breath one more time, or, you know, imagine a candle or Whatever it might be, it's not necessarily for everybody. I get it. I mean, my monkey mind is on, like, high octane fuel. I get it. But you could use an app that just helps you breathe, right? Or something. Box breathing or whatever it might be. Try that 10 minutes twice a day for two weeks, see what happens. I think most folks will be very pleasantly surprised. On the ancient wisdom side, I've always been interested but skeptical. Interested in, but skeptical of acupuncture. Skeptical because, as with many modalities, practitioners sometimes oversell it. Panacea for everything. That's true. Psychedelics. It's true with massage. It's true for pt, it's true for surgery. It's. I can fix all your problems. All right? Probably not. However, there. There are a few aspects. And I went to two universities in China. I speak Chinese, meaning Mandarin. In this case, I've spent a lot of time around Chinese medicine, traditional Chinese medicine. Acupuncture on animals. How does that work? Right. There's. As far as we know, maybe there's not a whole lot of placebo effect with dogs, let's just say. So being able to use acupuncture in place of, say, anesthesia with animals, that's pretty weird. That's interesting. The other one, that seems pretty compelling. There are several, but the other one is pregnancy using acupuncture for fertility. So what on earth is going on? If that is actually a thing for the time being, let's say maybe it is. And I know a few traditional Chinese medicine practitioners, and they have walls of photos of babies. And I'm like, that's interesting. Now, you can't underestimate the power of the mind and the placebo effect, which, by the way, people are like, oh, it's just placebo effect. Placebo effect is the craziest thing in the world. But let's leave that alone for the moment. One of the ways that you would stimulate. Can stimulate some of the fibers in the vagus nerve is with placement on the ear. And you're applying electric current on something called the simba concha right here. The placement really matters. It's very, very specific. And then you need another probe to, you know, ground or complete the circuit effectively. That would be the five minutes of stimulation. You can also do it the neck, but the neck's quite uncomfortable. The placement of those probes corresponds to where the traditional Chinese medicine practitioners put the needles.

[Jay Shetty]

No way.

[Tim Ferriss]

And electricity is not the only way you can do it, right? It's not the only way. I mean, there was a Physician in France who experimented with taking ballpoint pens and pressing on different parts of the ear.

[Jay Shetty]

Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Which, funny enough, that was in the 1900s, ended up getting retrofitted and adopted by a lot of traditional Chinese medicine practitioners in China. But the overlap's interesting, Right? Like, that's very interesting. And it's also, you have to wonder, it's like, man, how many thousands of years of trial and error did that take to figure out?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah. And how did they figure it out, too?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, yeah. It's wild. And I should say.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

As one voice of sanity, there's also a lot of stuff that has existed for a very long time that is probably nonsense.

[Jay Shetty]

Right, of course. Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

But suffice to say, to answer your question, bioelectric medicine is using electricity or electronics in place of drugs to avoid

[Jay Shetty]

the side effects, that being the primary.

[Tim Ferriss]

To avoid the side effects, to help establish homeostasis, perhaps, as opposed to overall blocking something or overall stimulating something, you know, smashing some receptor. But then, oh, by the way, it also has an affinity. All these other receptors that we don't really want to mess with, but we can avoid it. And there is a place for drugs. Look, I take prescription medication. It's like, there is a place for it, but in at least the US where it's shocking to me that this somehow got pushed through. You can advertise on television directly to patients selling drugs. It's outrageous. The pharmaceutical industrial complex is a very real thing, and the incentives are very perverse in a lot of cases. So we are over prescribed, over medicated, without question.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. It blew my mind when I moved to this country and saw those ads. I couldn't believe they were real. I was like, this has to be an SNL skit. Or like, it has to be something comedic. I couldn't believe it. Because you don't have that in the uk. You'd never see that.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And so when I moved here, I was like, wow, it's literally telling me that this might kill me. Like, might kill you. Is. Is a legitimate, you know, very, very

[Tim Ferriss]

fast word per minute fine print.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's unbelievable. No, I appreciate that.

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[Tim Ferriss]

Connecting changes everything. AT&T

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[Jay Shetty]

A lot of what you spoke about, you talked about, you know, doing the, the lactate and it was like six months to unlock. You talked about the. Of the 4, 4, 4, 4, like 4 on, 4 off, 4 on, 4 off, three times a week, six months. And then you spoke about the idea of, you know, two weeks of meditation twice a day to feel the benefits. What I find more and more fascinating, even in myself, and what to speak of our community and the audience that tunes into shows like this is we know that everyone struggles with that initial discomfort.

[Ad Host]

Like you said, you have to do

[Jay Shetty]

it for two weeks to start feeling the benefits and noticing that that calm or letting things settle. Or you have to do something for six months. What have you found to be the best startup strategy to a new habit to unlock its potential when it may take two weeks to unlock its benefit?

[Tim Ferriss]

This might sound like a simplistic answer, but it's telling people that, yeah, do you know what I mean?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Because in many cases you're so right. It's like, hey, study a language and you'll learn the language, but you're setting someone up for failure in that example. And I use that just because most people are like, oh God, so much PTSD about learning languages, right? But if you tell them, like, hey, here's what the graph looks like as you, you're going to have this type of experience and then once you add this new grammatical construction, like, you're going to have a bit of a trough of sorrow. Don't worry about it, right? You're going to plateau, but you're not actually plateauing. Your mind is adjusting to involve this additional complexity. And then you kind of explain what like the stock chart of your brain is going to look like, then people don't freak out and the abandonment rate is going to be less. And so I think with something like meditation saying, you may see benefits sooner, but experience seems to indicate that a switch is flipped around two weeks. So commit to two and a half weeks and do less than you think is necessary. Do less than you think you can do. And this applies to any new habit as far as I'm concerned. If you think you can do 20 minutes, but that's pushing it into redline territory. Do 10, do less than you think you can do, because that is going to contribute to endurance and longevity. And enthusiasm don't bleed the stone. There's a lot of upside to the Protestant work ethic and yada, yada, yada, rugged individual stuff that we find in many parts of the world. This is not a place to show how much you can do if you're trying to adopt a new behavior. So with, with the meditation, I would just. I think it, it is undervalued how setting expectations can be the missing ingredient. Yeah, it's just like, hey, if I were trying to sell one of my friends, which I do often, I would just say, look much like ketosis or ketogenic diet. It's pass fail. It's binary. You can't do it 50%. The good news is you're going to know after two and a half weeks in the case of meditation whether this works for you at all or not. And if it works, it could be pretty dramat. But if you give up after a week, the whole thing's wasted. So just commit to two and a half. And if you need to do a bet with a friend or something to set stakes and incentivize yourself so you'll be embarrassed if you stop. Guess what? That's useful too. I talked a lot about that in the Four Hour Chef. How do you actually set up incentives so that it's harder to quit? These are very. Have your friend take some photos of you and your tighty whities in unflattering light and that'll get released into the wild. If you don't do it for two and a half weeks or it's like $100 bet and your buddy, your friend is going to donate that to your most hated political candidate in your name if you don't do it for two and a half weeks. Okay, great.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. So good.

[Tim Ferriss]

You're more likely to do it.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Everyone needs reasons.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. So, so good.

[Tim Ferriss]

I think that's the biggest one, honestly, is just setting expectations. And in the case of the, the Norwegian 4x4, this is a quirk of science and interpretation of science. So they did do the six months and the effects seem to extend out to five years. But that doesn't mean that you need six months.

[Jay Shetty]

Right, right, right.

[Tim Ferriss]

That was just the study design.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

So who knows? I would imagine that it's not all or nothing, that it's cumulative. And that's actually what I was texting with Tommy Wood about today. I said, well, what do we know and what do we not know? Because that was the study design and that's, I'm sure since been replicated and people are modeling that. But is it possible that Instead of, say, four by four, sell, you know, 16 minutes of this PO2 max training, is it possible that less time would work as long as you hit certain peak levels of lactate? Could a 10 minute. Could a 5 minute session of weight training work if you hit a certain minimum threshold question mark?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Who knows? Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Right. Has anyone done 3 months Norwegian Protocol and looked at the effects? Yes or no? Maybe, maybe not. This is the kind of stuff that I also fund through my foundation. Right. I get so tired of kind of chewing on my fingernails, wondering about these things that I just fund a lot of science. But there may be a smaller minimum effective dose for that stuff. We'll see.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Fascinating.

[Tim Ferriss]

That's the business of science, right?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Tim Ferriss]

Trying not to fool yourself, setting things up. So it's very hard for you to fool yourself or to buy bias.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. So I like that. Yeah. Under set expectations and do less than you think. That's a great one.

[Tim Ferriss]

Do less than you think.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely. Do less than you think is a brilliant, brilliant method. And I think we're so scared of saying that to our friends or people we love because we know everyone wants instant change.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And so because people want instant change, we want to say, do this today and it will calm you down. Yeah. And we know that isn't true because it's going to take a practice and a discipline and it might.

[Tim Ferriss]

But yeah, I mean, there are some. There are some very fast returns, turns, and then other things take. Seem to take more time. I interviewed years ago, someone named John Crystal, who I believe is the chair of psychiatry at Yale, or he was at the time, and he did a lot of, along with his colleagues, a lot of the seminal work on ketamine as an antidepressant in humans. And I think it was 0.5mg per kg over x period of time. And it showed these amazing effects. But now the 0.5 milligrams per kilogram has this religious dogma among a lot of practitioners, including some scientists who are like, this is the protocol. I was like, well, is it? It's one protocol.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. That was tested in that way, but

[Tim Ferriss]

it doesn't mean that is the end all be all. I would say also just on the ketamine front, very risk compound, high likelihood of addiction. Listen to that episode. Or just do some real deep dive before you ever consider having certainly any ketamine at home, whether that's through Johnson Johnson S Ketamine spravato or through a clinic. My recommendation is do not have lozenges or anything like that at home. If you're gonna do, if you're gonna pursue that for different applications. I think it's very interesting for suicidality. It's one of the few things that I've seen if someone is acutely at risk of hurting themselves in some cases with an infusion or an injection, a few hours later they go from I'm going to kill myself today to I don't know what I was so upset about. That's crazy.

[Jay Shetty]

That big.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. I've seen that multiple times and so have other clinicians. That's one of the few interventions I would say for that particular type of catastrophic scenario. That's pretty interesting.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So in any case, I'll stop there for the moment.

[Jay Shetty]

I love it, man. This is what I wanted. I was like, I was like, you're

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one of the few guests, you're one

[Jay Shetty]

of the few people you can truly do this with where I'm just like, tim, I just want to know what your fascinating.

[Tim Ferriss]

Let my brain go crazy, that's what.

[Jay Shetty]

But that's what I love about it. Like it's, it's, you know, that that's what I love about talking to you or like learning from you over the years is that you're just so deeply curious about so many things happening at the same time and they're just. And they're all just interesting and new and they help you be more curious and ask questions. And, you know, and, and I appreciate that because I'm like, otherwise, what's the point? Like, why, why are we doing this? You know?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, people can. I need to deal with the double edged sword of ocd.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. No, I mean, I mean it's great

[Tim Ferriss]

when you're looking at science, but if you're looking at some mistake you made yesterday and you're thinking about that for four days straight, maybe not so helpful, you know?

[Jay Shetty]

How, how did you make that? Was there ever a turn you needed to make?

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's why I did the, you know, antibiotic plus accelerated tms. Oh yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

What helped you make that turn?

[Tim Ferriss]

A few things. Right. I think there's a degree of pain that especially over long periods of time, you want relief from. And for some of us, that is just the looping ruminative mind that is turning on itself. So whether that's. Could be any number of things, right? Could be. And in terms of ocd, like my mom's makes me look like a cakewalk with her ocd. But I'm not flipping light switches, I'm not washing my hands, which is not denigrating any of that stuff. It's like people have different ways of it manifesting. For me, it's all internal. Yes, it's all internal. What if this. I should have said that. Loop, loop, loop, loop, loop. Imagining outcomes, et cetera. Perseverating on some conversation that I wish had gone a different way. And it's exhausting. It's really exhausting. And you know, rest in peace. Nolan Williams unfortunately passed away, but I was introduced to him through the topic of psychedelics because he pioneered at Stanford. Also, he was a real polymath. A lot of very compelling research related to ibogaine. So ibogaine is an alkaloid derived from iboga tabernanth, which is a psychedelic plant. In this case the Bwiti tribe and others are using the root bark for these very long, super intense Mount Everest of psychedelic like experiences. It is not to be trifled with. There are some very significant cardiac risks for certain people. You can die taking this, unlike most psychedelics. And he was the first to really put under a fine scientific lens some of the neuroanatomical changes, specifically in veterans. And ibogaine, it's a pretty remarkable compound in the sense that it effectively reversed the brain age of these veterans and specifically in cases of traumatic brain injury. That's strange. This is not really something you see, it's not something that people had observed with other drugs, including other psychedelics. And it seems to relate to something called glial derived neurotrophic factor. But suffice to say, I connected with him about that and then it turned out this guy's not a one trick pony. He also is one of the world leaders in non invasive brain stimulation accelerated tms. And I started looking at the literature and the results and I'm like, you got to be kidding me. I mean, this reads like science fiction number one. Number two, it seems unbelievable, like a total scam, but I know it's not a scam. Like these are very, very top tier scientists. And when I realized that it could be applied to, well, a few things, backstory. I always had self described as someone who struggled with depression. When I actually was able to address it most successfully, I realized that the depression was born of fatigue, which came from anxiety, which interrupted my sleep. So the domino to tip was actually the anxiety piece. Much like the. Kind of like this is not the greatest comparison, but like the VO2 Max, it's like that's right, yeah, that's the output you can point to. But the catalyst was actually the anxiety and I was like, well, well, yolo, let's try it. The safety profile looks really appealing. The actual stimulation is, relatively speaking, pretty low power. It's been around for decades. It seems like mostly upside potential. There are some risks involved people should be aware of and people can search accelerated TMS and so on to find those, but all in all attractive for someone who's experiencing, in my case, the amount of chronic mental anguish. That's what kicked it off. Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

How, how accessible is that now?

[Tim Ferriss]

So TMS itself, let's just say conventional TMS is actually quite accessible. Much like ketamine clinics, there are fly by night operations.

[Jay Shetty]

Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

So caveat emptor, you gotta do your homework. But TMS is very widely accessible and often reimbursed by insurance. Accelerated tms, as far as I know, is not reimbursable by insurance at the moment. So it is available at certain clinics. There's one that I've used called Acacia Clinic or Acacia Clinics in Sunnyvale, California. But it's expensive. It's expensive, it's expensive for the five day. My hope and also part of the reason why I volunteered to be one of the first 60 monkeys shot into space with the D cycloserine, this very low dose antibiotic. And the one day is that if you compress the five days into one day, suddenly the cost should be much, much lower. Yeah, of course, dramatically lower. And it's much more accessible because not that many people can take a week off of work. Completely off of work. Because your brain will be exhausted.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely.

[Tim Ferriss]

When you have this treatment. I remember going in for my first day of stimulation, so got like nine hours of sleep. I was feeling like a million bucks. I could do jumping jacks all day. Had my first eight minute stimulation and I felt like I just pulled three all nighters studying for a test. I was so mentally tired. So if you do it, do not have any delusions of cranking out 50 minutes of work in between these stimulations. Ain't gonna happen. But the one day, man, it could be the future for a lot of people. And that is not widely available, but people can do some digging. There are clinics, not a lot of them. The two main hardware companies are Brainsway, that's one which I've used, I've used both because in my whole shtick. And it's real, it's part of the mission for me is being the guinea pig and taking the notes so that not everyone has to, just in case there's collateral damage, which sometimes there is. Brainsway has some very, very sophisticated hardware. And then Mag Venture is another one that has very well developed hardware. As far as I know, those are kind of the two front runners. The other that I mentioned, which focuses specifically on the one day AMPA Health I have not tested, so I can't speak to that directly. There seem to be credible people involved, but I can't. I haven't really done the due diligence.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah, good to know. Good to know. I have so many friends and family members asking and wanting to discover. So very, very useful insight. Tim, I wanted to switch to some of the philosophical aspects you ment. Sure, yeah. Earlier, like the things that you're fascinated by right now. And I was thinking about even as a society, how we seem to kind of oscillate between this work life balance to then hustle culture. And it seems that that just takes over the conversation for that period in time. So rewind back probably five to 10 years and hustle culture was the thing. Yeah, Work life balance has kind of made its comeback now and then. You could look back 25 years and we were talking about work life balance when it first kind of prob entered the zeitgeist. And it was preceded by this hustle intensity culture, whatever it was called then. And you're kind of talking about this idea of this achievement mindset that you had and has been useful. And then now looking at this acceptance mindset that, you know, you're almost looking at the value of both. And I think that's even this whole conversation we're talking about the value of both or this and this or, you know, the connection between old and new and being curious. And I feel, I find that, that with work life balance and hustle culture or achievement, let's call it achievement, because hustle culture just sounds like working hard without maybe any direction.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

But achievement culture and acceptance culture, which feel like together they're so synergistic, yet we tend to just go between one or the other in different phases of our life.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Where are you at with making sense of that for yourself and thinking about it for others?

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, I'll say something might surprise people. So the first thing, as the guy who wrote a book called the Four Hour Workweek, I have no problem with 80 hour work weeks if there are good reasons behind it. So I'll just let that settle for a second and I'll add something that normally I wouldn't add to that, which is like read The Serenity Prayer, the actual Serenity Prayer, acceptance across the board for everything is effectively becoming a cow standing in the rain. Right? That's just complacency, passivity and then completely unrestrained achievement is just a greyhound running around a track chasing a rabbit. And those dogs can't run very long, but they can sprint. So number one, if you can't control or affect something, that probably lands in the acceptance bucket, it. Right, which is why I've not had social media on my phone for three or four years. Doom scrolling, not helpful for a million different reasons. I know people probably agree with this at face value. Nonetheless, let's look at behavior. Show me what you do, not what you say kind of situation. It's like my friends, even some of my most accomplished achiever friends, these are megastars within business. I know one guy in particular, such a smart guy, he's so good, he's got a wonderful family and he took X off his phone a few years ago and it's like he went through 20 years of therapy, right? It was like a month later, like everything's better.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And then I'm in a group thread with him and a few months ago he started sending links to things on X and I was like, oh, you're back on the sauce. When did that happen? And he's like, oh, I got dragged back in the cesspool. It's the worst. It's like he's been. It just came out of POW camp. Like he's a mess. If you're listening, sorry, not a mess, but it's just like, it's not an improvement, it's a worsening of psychological state. So that stuff, it's like if you can't act on it or if you're not going to act on it, that has to go in the acceptance bucket or in the ignore button and the selective ignorance bucket. Then on the achievement side for me, I would say that as a way of kind of setting the table. One of my friends, Josh Waitzkin, my second ever podcast, by the way, he was the basis for searching for Bobby Fischer. He's considered a chess prodigy. He hates that. It doesn't really describe him well either because he's become world class, very top 1% in a couple of different disciplines. He's very systematic. But one of his guiding tenets, maxims is avoid the simmering six. And that just means you're either off like you could be taking a nap under a set of bleachers or something, or you're on like you are the greyhound, right. You are completely focused and you're in sixth gear. It's like avoid everything in between.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So avoiding the simmering six. And I and a lot of people I think are at risk of the gravitational pull of the default, which is the simmering six getting interrupted by text messages and emails and responding to everyone else's manufactured emergency and so on. That's the simmering six. And that will just murder you psycho emotionally. So for me, I try to really oscillate between restfulness or sprint. The fact of the matter is, as much as I would like to think otherwise, like I'm a working dog, right. I'm like, I'm like a border collie. Right. If, if idle hands are the devil's worksh, then you know, by extension it's like you leave a border collie trapped in an apartment long enough, it's going to chew the cows the couch to pieces, turn into a neurotic mess. It's like a lot of people are like that. I'm like that. It's good for me to have a mission, a project.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, me too.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's just, and I don't think anyone needs to apologize for that.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So for instance, like with this, I have an 850 page draft of a book and it's like, all right, well what am I going to do with that beast? I'll probably do a retreat where all I do is eat, sleep, exercise. Right? That's it. And it will be full on as many hours a day as I can handle every day for a few weeks. It's not going to be the four hour work week, but it's with an end point, with a very precise purpose that I feel good about, that I feel aligned with, with, and that's fine. And then after that I will probably bookend it by booking something like three to seven days with a handful of close friends doing something to just park it in zero. And I recognize that exact sequence of events will not apply to everybody, but if you just use the mantra of avoid the simmering six, I think you can get a lot of mileage out of it.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, I like that too. I, I, I think you're spot on. I think that's probably where I've netted out too, because I think that simmering six is the distraction and is where all the stress and the tension comes from, where you're trying to balance both at all times perfectly or get distracted by. I'm trying to spend time with my family, but I'm still on my phone yeah. Or I'm at work and I'm trying to make sure everything's okay at home.

[Tim Ferriss]

Right.

[Jay Shetty]

And. And you're never going to win that way ever. And you have to have these really clear. I was invited, yesterday was Sunday and I was invited to a work thing like last minute on a Saturday night. And like years ago I would have said yes immediately because I thought it was extremely valuable and I needed to be there and if I wasn't there, then I'd miss out on opportunities. And it was, I was saying to my wife and I had to say to her only to make myself feel better about myself. I was like, I'm so proud. I said no because I've like really promised myself that my weekends are off time.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And that wasn't the case in the beginning. And I'm glad it wasn't the case because I was sprinting and I needed that extra work and that was important. And I, I don't feel bad about it. It was the right thing to do. But at this point, this was the right thing to do of to be able to say, well, no, I really want a Sunday off. I don't want to run to a work thing in the middle of the day, which will probably take four hours. And, and I don't need to. It's not an emergency. I'm not solving anything.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And, and, yeah, that. On. And what do you think is the biggest. Obviously the simmering six is the obvious answer, but what do you think is the biggest thing people come up against when they're trying to do on and off? Like, what's the hardest part of that? Your friend, for example, who quit X felt the benefit, saw the growth, and then gets pulled back in.

[Tim Ferriss]

I think he had too much time on his hands.

[Jay Shetty]

Right. Okay.

[Tim Ferriss]

He was sort of post economic and border collie. He has a lot of time for unusual, rare reasons. Right. But I would say that if you do not have a primary project or mission, and it doesn't mean your job has to be something you love 24 7, like working to live and just having a job that you can tolerate, that you're good at, great. I actually think that's fine. But if, on the other hand, let's just say you're an entrepreneur and you're kind of floating around, Mike. Maybe you have a few cool things you're pursuing, but there's no hell yes. Kind of along the lines of Derek Sivers. You're going to be tempted to wander and that's how you end up sitting on the toilet, looking at Instagram and you're like, I can't feel my legs. Oh, I've been here 45 minutes. Like, that's how that, that's how that happens. And I've been there.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And it means you don't have a

[Jay Shetty]

big enough yes, yes, yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

You need a bigger yes, yes. And I would say that the avoid the simmering six though, is unhelpful in so much as it's telling you what not to do. But that doesn't really give you a whole lot of direction. So another way to frame it is actually quoting a friend of mine, Chris Sacca, phenomen on all of incredible guy. Just like one of the best investors I've ever met. His story's nuts. And his question is effectively like, are you living offense or defense? Right. So if you're responding to everyone else's agenda for your time and email defense, right? If for instance, I don't know when this happened, maybe you've experienced this, but guess people feel so stressed out and short on time that a lot of very busy friends of mine are now catching up on Sundays. Sundays is like their catch up on email day. So I'll get texts that are like about business stuff. And my response has to be for sanity because if I engage with that, I'm playing defense and breaking my own rules and boundaries. So I'm just like, hey bud, exclamation point, sorry, don't do business on weekends. Like, text me again on Monday, Tuesday, whatever. Yeah, then. And Dr. Seuss has this amazing. Ted Geisel has this amazing quote, those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter. It's like if somebody gets pissed off about that, guess what? Let them opt out. And with all my friends, they're like, love that. Cool. Talk to you this week. They're fine. So I would say aim for offense, not defense. Offense means you're deciding on what you want to do and you're applying a certain amount of time or energy towards that before you're react. Collins, the writer of author of Good to Great and Built to Last and these iconic books. He tracks his creative hours and I think for every 365 day period, he's got to have 1,000 and something hours. And he tracks it daily. And if he's running behind on the count, he's like, oh, something's got to change. I don't take it to that level. But I try to make before I manage in sense. I really try to reserve the hours after I wake up for creative work to the extent that I can. I actually think I do my best creative work incredibly late at night, but that is socially incompatible with any type of partner. So I've had to switch things around a little bit.

[Ad Host]

Have you?

[Jay Shetty]

Wow. Have you really?

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

That's impressive.

[Tim Ferriss]

I mean my four hour work week, four hour body, four hour chef, all written at night between like 9pm and 4am I would do research during the day, but the actual synthesis, writing, et cetera, was all done very, very late at night.

[Jay Shetty]

So how have you manage to change yourself to a morning person?

[Tim Ferriss]

I don't think I am a morning person. I would say that there are a few things. So one is recognizing relationships are the meat of life. If you're vegan or something, it's the sustenance of life. I wrote this blog post just went up like five days ago. I spent so long putting it together called the Self Help Travel up what I've learned after 20 plus years of optimizing myself, talking about some of this, but basically reorienting Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which by the way Abraham himself never made a pyramid. And he added an update to that. People are accustomed to thinking about self actualization at the top. He actually added self transcendence later. And it was always something that was moving and shifting. But, but I have recognized for myself, for quality of life, for the experience of time dilation, just getting more life out of your years. Right. Not just adding more years to your life. We could talk a lot about that. Relationships, close friends, family. It sounds so self evident. But how many people do we know? Maybe you look in the mirror and you see them who at the end of a year, if you ask them, did you spend as much time as you would have liked this last year with your 10 most important relationships, almost everybody's going to say no. So really taking that on as a challenge means If I'm sacrificing 20% of my output because I'm forcing myself to pretend to cosplay as a morning person, that's fine.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Now one could make the argument and it's not, not totally off base that. Well, that's convenient for Tim to say because you know, he's had decades of putting things out that have luckily done well enough. But I don't think that does hold some water. But it doesn't, it doesn't really hold all the water. That's, that's not, I don't think a real expression. But the point is I have through sprinting, right. But not ending up at the simmering six over many decades. Right. Or like the simmering seven or eight, which is even worse. You're running hot. I have burned out so many times that coming back to the meditation. Right. Do less than you think you can do. If I dial back, let's say I lose 20% and I don't burn out. Well, that's like playing sports and not getting injured. Right. If you get injured and you're out for two months.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And then you have three months of rehab. You didn't save any time by being intense. You lost time.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So I feel like also not being a morning person like some folks. I have so many friends that just like I wake up, I'm on fire. So jealous now. Playing with your fuel source can, can help this actually. But I feel like if, even if I have less energy, what that means is I just have to be. Be very smart and selective about what I apply myself to. So it makes me more selective with projects, more focused on what I'm trying to do. Because I'm like, all right, friend x gets 4 hours of lightning in a bottle every morning. I probably get, eh, maybe 90 minutes depending on how much caffeine I've had. So I need to make those 90 minutes count.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And I. That's actually a helpful forcing function for me.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think going back to what you were saying about, about doom scrolling and screen time I've had, I mean this sounds again so basic, but, but it is the stuff we all struggle with. Like I had to really make a commitment that if I was on a screen, that I was only on one screen at a time. Because what I would find was sometimes my wife and I would sit down to watch a show in the evening and I'm like, there's, there's very little TV that gets my attention enough to really commit.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And, and I'm not someone who generally loves using their time to do that.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Ad Host]

But at the end of a long

[Jay Shetty]

day of work and it's been busy and we've had dinner together, we've connected and you just kind of want to zone out. I don't have the energy. I'm more the other way. I have lots of energy in the morning. In the evening, I can hang out with friends or family, but I don't do creative work in the evening. I never have. And so mine's the opposite where I have less energy at that time. And so kind of switching off is kind of nice. But, but switching off and feeling like I wasted my off time is not a fun feeling. Like, I don't enjoy that feeling. So we'd watch a show and I wasn't committed and then I'd be on my phone or I'd kind of be on my laptop too. And now I haven't achieved anything at work. I haven't doom. Scrolled well enough and the screen is boring me. And now I'm feeling like I'm wasting days. Like in the evening, I'm like adding all these hours up and going, God, I wasted like three hours in front of the TV and I didn't do anything, anything. And all of a sudden a. There was a show selection problem. So we sorted that out. Whereas, okay, let's find something we actually care about watching. But the other part was just, okay, I'm going to leave my phone in another room where I just can't get it. I don't work at this time, so the laptop can't be near me. And. And I have to do this old school thing of like sitting in a theater in my own house, like saying, okay, I'm at the movies now.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Like, what does it feel like to go to the movies and watch a movie, which we all used to do, and go to the theater with that without any other distraction and actually enjoy or experience it. And it's. It's been huge for unlocking presence and enjoyment and entertainment, even, Even from a stillness point of view, for sure. Because I feel like we're not even doing rest properly, which is why we can't work properly.

[Tim Ferriss]

God, we go so many directions here. Yeah, well, I was just gonna say, I mean, I am very plugged in to technology and digital. Right. I mean, my, my main business per se, is actually angel investing, which I've done since 2008. Like that, that's actually the, the larger piece of my professional life from like an economic perspective. So I'm constantly involved with tech. I lived in the Bay area for almost 20 years and the people who created these tools, a lot of them, I mean, the social dilemma people can check out, treat it like smoking, it is incredibly bad for you, even in moderate doses. So what I would suggest to folks, and I mention all of that being plugged into tech simply because if I were Amish and I'm like, I don't have any social apps on my phone, people are like, well, Tim can do it, but that's nonsense.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Because he's an edge case. Like, no, no, no. Like my. A lot of what I do is predicated on knowing what is happening.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, same.

[Tim Ferriss]

And I still have no social media apps on my phone.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, that's impressive.

[Tim Ferriss]

And what I would say to folks is, even if the counter argument is, well, I need it for my business, okay, fine, you can still access through a laptop and guess what, you can still record videos. You just have to batch upload them later or schedule them in advance. You just can't be self interrupting with these apps on your phone. If that is within the realm of possibility, try for two weeks. And my feeling is if you can't do those, that if your entire livelihood does not depend on it, you're addicted. Just like an alcoholic, just like a smoker, it means you have a problem. Right. And I would say, look, I can talk about meditation and bioelectric medicine and this and that and the other thing. If you just get off of social media for two weeks, just like my friend, I think it will basically do the same amount of good for a lot of folks as 10 years of therapy. If you're constantly tapping a vein with social media as you're doing that therapy also have feelings on caffeine. I think that's also true for cutting down on caffeine.

[Jay Shetty]

Talk to me about that.

[Tim Ferriss]

People are like, I'm anxious. I'm like, how much coffee you drink? Like three to five cups. I'm like, that's liquid anxiety. Of course you're anxious. So coming back to the fuel thing, it's like maybe it's not a problem solving problem, maybe it's just a biological issue issue. Yeah, right.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And caffeine is not a fuel, right? It's, it's forcing you to use your fuel faster. And look guys, I understand actually how chemistry works and the denosine and so on, but let's keep it simple, right? It's not adding fuel to the system, it is burning fuel faster. Also has some pretty profound effects on glucose levels too. If you ever wear a CGM and you have a bunch of coffee, it's like, oh wow, I'm suddenly way out of range. So when people have a caffeine crash, it's not necessarily because the caffeine is wearing off, because you still have trouble sleeping at night. It's because your glucose spikes and then crashes. Uh oh, we're back to the fuel problem again.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the fuel problems.

[Tim Ferriss]

All roads, all roads lead to fuel.

[Jay Shetty]

Lead to fuel. We're looking for the four hour fuel book now.

[Tim Ferriss]

Got to chip away at this thousand page monster first.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

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[Jay Shetty]

Talk to me about the acceptance piece. Like what's been the what's been the hardest thing to wrap your head around with Acceptance. The idea of acceptance.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, I'll give two examples. The first is that personally doing any type of meditation that involves observing rather than suppressing or fixing, right? So if you have frustration coming up, restlessness, aversion, just labeling it and allowing it to be like a mother consoling a crying child, that's hard. It's hard, but I think it's a valuable practice. So that's something that I've explored. There are lots of good apps out there. I'm involved with the way and I used it but prior to getting involved with Henry Schucman. But there are many good options. There's calm, there's headspace, there's lots of different options, but I would say that specifically exploring something that cultivates your ability to observe things that you would call uncomfortable or negative without trying to change them is valuable. All right. The second, in terms of acceptance is relational. Humans are crazy, man. Like, every human's nuts. Like, like irrationality is just table stakes.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Like, we are not. Which is why any of the, like the, of the, the, the efficient market theory stuff, where it's like, we're all rational agents acting in our own best interest. I'm like, have you met, have you actually walked out economists and met humans? Like, what are you talking about? So in relationships, I, I, I, I'll give a resource. There's a audiobook, there's no print version, called Fierce Intimacy by Terry Real, who is an amazing therapist. You should have him on the show. Yeah, that guy's incredible. And very opinionated. Very. He does. He's not one of those therapists who questions back and forth. You're like, terry, you know, what do you think? He's like, what do you think? Like, he doesn't do that. He's like, let me tell you, like, you're being an idiot for these reasons and, like, you need to grow up because of these reasons. He's not exactly like Dr. Phil or anything, but he's, he's very, very good at what he does and Fierce Intimacy, along with his other materials. And he's not the only person. You know, the Gotmans are pretty interesting as well, but Terry real specifically has a number of principles that undergird his entire approach. And one of them is, when it comes to relationships, objective reality doesn't exist. So, for instance, right. He gives this example. I'm going to butcher it. It's very funny when he tells it. He's like, all right, let's say husband and wife are out to dinner. Waiter comes over, takes the order, walks away. And the husband says to the wife, honey, you don't need to eat.

[Jay Shetty]

Yell.

[Tim Ferriss]

And she's like, I wasn't yelling. And he's like, yes, you were. And you see where this is going, right? And let's just suppose. And he, he, he gives this example. The husband says, well, honey, you know, I thought this might come up. So I actually hired professional audiologists and, and brought in recorders. And based on the decibel level. Let me show you. In fact, based on any conventional definition, you were yelling, like, is that going to help?

[Jay Shetty]

No, of course not.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's gonna be disaster. So, so in terms of interacting with a significant other, as this context is describing accepting that we, for each of us, our interpretation of reality, our experience of reality is real. And if you try to fix it or win the situation by arguing over objective reality, it is just a dead end.

[Jay Shetty]

And that is what we all do.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's what we all do.

[Jay Shetty]

That's literally all we ever do.

[Tim Ferriss]

I think none us of are not. Not to get too gendered, but let's call a spade a spade. Guys, like men are particularly bad in terms of habitually doing this. Women do it too. But in effect, accepting, for instance, someone's upset. All right, and trying to be curious. And this is going to sound like some hand wavy, you know, kumbaya stuff, but it's like trying to be curious before you react. Right? That is sort of the key piece. It also ties into all the productivity. All. Everything is so related. Right. It's just like, do you have the space to think or are you just reacting to that text on a Sunday? You need the space. And there are a lot of ways to cultivate it. One is meditation. Sure, but it's not the only tool in the toolkit. Right. By the way, if you've had three cups of coffee and your sympathetic system is in overdrive, what are you going to do? You're going to bite someone's head off? That's another lever you can pool. Okay. Fuel. Are you depleted? Okay, well, let's fix that. And then on the relational piece, you gotta practice in the messy reality of relationships or it just doesn't count. You can read all the relationship books in the world. You gotta practice it. And historically, like I did not put it mildly. Grew up in a household that modeled conflict resolution very well. Lots of yelling and screaming. It was. Yeah, I didn't. If I learned anything, it was all of the most counterproductive ways to handle conflict.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, me too.

[Tim Ferriss]

And I carried that into my relationships. Surprise, surprise. Didn't produce miracles of positivity. But in the last, I'd say 10 years have become much, much better. Oh, Terry. Real debt of gratitude. And my. One of my exes who introduced me to Terry, Terry's work, and my friend Kevin Rose for that matter. Not to say Terry is the end all be all just resonated with me. Just like different people have different parenting styles. Some people love Dr. Becky Kennedy. I tend to resonate with her stuff. But other people resonate with other things. But for me, when it comes to. To return to your question, acceptance. Man, oh man, does that matter a lot in relationships. And there are many different iterations of it. So those would be two. Right. There's the how do I sit with uncomfortable feelings with. Without the necessity of fixing them or suppressing them, which, by the way, ties into workaholism and hustle culture and social media use. Compulsive social media use. You're like, I'm bored. I don't like it. I need to do X.

[Jay Shetty]

Right? Yes. Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

Now, some people might get a little pedantic and say bored isn't a feeling. You get the idea.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's an experience.

[Jay Shetty]

You don't like that highlighting and that connectivity that you just put together. But the main piece on. On how the objective reality is what we always debate is fascinating because it's the simmering 6 of relationships. Like, it's. It's the distraction, it's the focal. Focal point that steals everything away. Because that's all we ever think is the thing to solve is objective reality. When. If you accept that that's how that person felt in that moment.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Regardless of whatever objectively you experienced, you think objectively you experience. And that's really hard to do because we're so wired to be like, but this is the truth. And. And in relationships, there's almost very little truth.

[Tim Ferriss]

If perhaps like me sounds like, like you. You didn't. You grew up in a household where, like, conflict haymakers were modeled really well, but, like, resolution was not modeled well. I think his name is Marshall Rosenberg. Might be getting the name wrong, but nonviolent communication. Read the book. Yeah. Yes, it is schlocky in the sense that there's a format and it can feel a little repetitive. But guess what? In the beginning, if you're coming at from an upbringing that didn't teach you anything helpful on the conflict resolution side, you need a format, you need a template. And it's incredibly, incredibly helpful, if only for there. There. There's a whole process to it. People can just look it up. I'm sure chatgpt or anything else will give you a good overview. But at the end, make a request. Don't just bitch and moan about how you feel. What your partner did have a request.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Right?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Don't just tell them what not to do. That's actually not helpful. And I really had this driven home. Part of the reason I like exploring all these weird different nooks and crannies is you realize how much you can copy and paste to other places.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So a friend of mine, Jason Nemer, he's the co creat creator of something called ACRO yoga. You know, we're in Southern California. It's everywhere.

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. So you go to a park and you see, like, people with other people on their feet, and they're doing all sorts of cool stuff. And in those circumstances, basically partner acrobatics. Although it can be pretty chill if somebody is, say, like, standing on your hands, saying, don't push your heel down is very unhelpful and actually kind of dangerous. So instead of that, you say, more toe. More toe. Right. You always want to give them direction for what to do, not what not to do. And it applies to conflict resolution as well. So the nonviolent communication. And also sometimes you can talk about the objective reality, but you can't do that when one or more people are dysregulated.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

You just can't. It's not going to work. And that also counts for yourself. So sometimes times. Right. I'm in a great relationship right now. My relationships have never been better. Like, the last few years. Every one of my relationships there is. They are as good as they have ever been. Better. If I am feeling dysregulated, maybe I had too much coffee. Maybe. Whatever. It might be not to throw coffee into the bus, but it is the world's most consumed stimulant. Too little sleep, a bunch of bullshit going on. On the business side, somebody dropped a ball, whatever. And my partner wants to talk to me about something. If I'm not resourced, I'll just say, babe, babe, I'm happy to talk about this. Let's do it at dinner.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

I am really unresourced right now. I'm just not in a place to have a good conversation about this. And I'm pretty pissed off about a few things. Has nothing to do with you. And she's like, okay, cool. So you also, on either side, need to be able to agree that that's an option.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And the productivity with that. Sometimes I find, like, I'll say to my wife, like, I've got a crazy week coming up. Up. So just in advance, I'm just letting you know that this week I may not have the same space and stillness that I usually have or presence that I usually have to. To deal with something. Because I can preempt how I'm gonna feel.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Based on, you know, and. And luckily, you know, I have a partner that understands that where I'm like, hey, I'm traveling this week. I'm only literally back home for, like, three hours. Then I'm back out and it's like just people being aware of what your week even looks like. Because we kind of walk around thinking our partners should know.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, what does this sound like? Like, this sounds a lot like what we were talking about with how do you get someone to do the two weeks of meditation.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Setting expectations. You can have almost anything that you want in life if you manage expectations early.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes, yes, exactly. And I think we assume that we know our schedule and that our partner should somehow know that we have a busy week this week because we're coming home, like, huffing and puffing or we're like, you know, whatever it is, we're on our phone and we're like, oh, God, I got to, you know, so it's. It's almost like we're trying to send all these cues without just spelling it out.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And just saying, hey, this is what my week looks like. And, you know, what does yours look like? And I try and do that a lot as well. It's fascinating. You said that we've been asking these questions about life and relationships and philosophy for like, you know, thousands of years.

[Tim Ferriss]

Forever.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, forever. But at least documented thousands of years at this point. And I feel like we are still somewhat answering, asking some of the same questions. We were mentioning this earlier, and I know you actually have a blog that. That a website that allows people to ask these questions. I want to ask, what are the questions that are worth answering? Because I feel like we ask a lot of questions. And now with AI, we're asking more questions than ever before. Which, by the way, I think is better than the answer generation that we grew up in, which was having the answer was smart, when we both know that asking the right question is smarter, which hopefully AI can help us get better at, because we all have to get better at asking questions. But what are the questions that are worth. Worth asking? Because I just feel like we're distracted by a set of questions that are not valuable.

[Tim Ferriss]

The questions that I keep returning to, a lot of them I've borrowed from different sources. Right. And I pointed out, you know, a book right behind me, Letters from a Stoic, Seneca the Younger. That's the Penguins classic edition. I've probably given away 100 copies of that book. Stoicism and Buddhism also, a lot of parallels, a lot of overlap. One would be, and this is actually borrowed from politics. Someone who co ran the war room for Bill Clinton put this in one of their books I bought. I was on a road trip and I just grabbed it from a used bookstore. But the question stuck with me, which I think they got from Newt Gingrich. And it's like, they also are diametrically opposed to Newt politically, but they were like, he was ruthlessly efficient and effective at gaining control of the House and blah, blah, blah. And the question was, are you hunting antelope or field mice? And the story behind it is effectively, like, if you're a lion, sure, you can keep yourself alive by hunting field mice and just eating like a hundred a day. Or you could put in the energy and the focus to kill an antelope, and then that lasts you a day or two or three or whatever the number might be. And that's a metaphor for, in effect, coming back to what we're talking about. Like, are you doing a bunch of little micro projects, putting out fires, living on defense, juggling 10 different kind of cool projects instead of one big, yes, if so, you're eating field mice. And it's like, that's no way for a lion to live. You can survive. That's not really living. Like, you need to hunt antelope. So to encapsulate all of that into one question is, are you hunting antelope or are you hunting field mice?

[Jay Shetty]

Do you ever hear people who just say, whoa, Tim Jay, I don't want to be a lion. You know, you guys like being lions, you want to be lions, you want to go chase antelope, Like, I don't want to be a lion. I just want to chase film mice. Like, you know, like. And what do you say to that? Because I always find it interesting.

[Ad Host]

I feel like, again, mentally, as a

[Jay Shetty]

society, we go between, you know, type A winners, this, this, this, versus, hey, I just want to have my lot in life and be happy.

[Tim Ferriss]

I'm glad you actually, you're asking about this because I think lion, okay, king of the jungle, et cetera. It implies almost that the person using the metaphor might want to be an apex predator, king of the hill, whatever. That's an unfortunate side effect, maybe of the picture that it paints. But the point is coming back to people falling apart when they have too much free time, right? This is a huge reason why most retirements fail and people have their health go off a cliff as soon as they retire. In many cases, it's about knowing what your big thing is, having a focus.

[Jay Shetty]

That's just what we need as humans.

[Tim Ferriss]

Planet Zim Psycho emotionally, philosophically. Humans are in the meaning making business. You can't do that with triaging email. You cannot fool yourself into thinking that that is deeply meaningful. There is a part of you that will know it is not and you will suffer accordingly. So that's how I would answer it. Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

I'm glad you went there because I think sometimes achievement mentality gets mixed with meaning making in that people assume that, oh, you just there. And there are some people who just want to win. Right. And that's not even to do with the meaning.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

So you could go kill a big antelope and still not win because you didn't have meaning as a human.

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, let me give. I'll give a. It's not even a counter example. It's a compatible example.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Let's just say it's a kindergarten teacher and her North Star is like, I'm. I want to put as much time as possible into whatever makes the lives of these kids better.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[Tim Ferriss]

That's it. Yeah. So is doing. Is managing the bake sale for the PTA adding to that, if those aren't the parents of your students. No, it's not. Therefore it's a no. Right. Is responding to email from friends or texts from friends or asking you to go out to have drinks on a Wednesday night going to contribute to that? No. It's actually going to be kind of productive. No, you can still have fun. I'm not saying don't have fun, but you can have a North Star. By the way, it doesn't have to be one thing for everyone. That can be very intimidating. Like, what is my purpose in life? What is my. What is my mission? It doesn't have to be this permanent thing for me. It generally isn't for me. It's. It's like, I mean, I do have overarching things that guide my behavior as values, but I will just go completely immersive into fill in the blank, biologic medicine for six months. That's it. That's all I care about. How do I translate that into something usable?

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

In the real world.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

Or you know, for like supporting science related to psychedelic assisted therapies and starting 2015, like for a long time that was it. And if people are like, well, I want you to do policy work or this. That related to it, I'm like, nope, that's not my power zone. I am focused on science. Okay. And I made it's supporting the science, not capitalizing on it. So I had a rule like, no investing in for profit companies related to psychedelics. Not that that makes sense. Someone, we need those. But I was like, for me, that's a hard boundary.

[Jay Shetty]

Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay, great. I feel like I've kind of done what I set out to do in that world. So I've largely stopped. Yeah, I'm out, like pass the baton, let other people do it. So it doesn't have to be forever. It doesn't have to be some grand giant thing. It could be teaching your kids.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, it's focus, it's central.

[Tim Ferriss]

It could be, for instance, for me now if I considered doing and adding. I mean, I'm a promiscuous activity adder. I love hobbies and yeah, I'm just all over the place. And now that really focused on my current relationship. That's going incredibly well, thankfully. Right. Fingers crossed.

[Jay Shetty]

Fingers crossed.

[Tim Ferriss]

And I borrowed this from a friend of mine, Kelly Starrett, who's an amazing performance coach in pt. But at one point he told me, because he also does tons of activities, he said he's only adding new activities that consume time. Physical activities that he can do with his wife or kids. Yeah, that's it. No solo activities. And it's like, wow, what a great forcing function.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay, cool. So with my partner, that's it. It's like, what can we do together? Okay. And you could change your mind six months later. Yeah, it's like, okay for now. That's it. Yeah. Only adding new time consuming hobbies.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

If I can do them with her. That's it.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely.

[Tim Ferriss]

That's, that's, that's a great question that I think counts as a big yes.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes. Yes. Yeah, so that's a great question. Glad we unpacked earlier.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. Yes, that's one. You know, another one which I, I think about and, and have been thinking more and more about is what if I could only fix this? Only fix this is even tricky with achiever types. What if I could only subtract instead of add? All right, so. So I'm sure this is true just about everywhere with humans, but you have some type of medical issue or you're trying to achieve X, you want to add things. What new software can I use? What new magic supplement can I take? Add. Add. Add, add, add. Right. What books can I read? Well, what if you turn all that around? You're like, what if I could only achieve whatever the goal is or solve the problem by stopping reading certain categories of thing. Example, given getting rid of your social media. Right. What if this is not medical advice, just informational example? But I am incredibly, I think intermittent fasting and fast mimicking diets are incredibly undervalued. Incredibly undervalued.

[Jay Shetty]

So cutting food out could be better than figuring out the right.

[Tim Ferriss]

This is a harder conversation to have with doctors because they're generally in the business of actual adding. Because I only get 11 minutes on average per patient in the US right. But for instance, you know, I've seen. It's like I could take tirzepatide or GLP1 to try to. And there might be some reasons for it, neuroprotection and so on, but I could do that to try to get my metabolic health under control. But I could also do intermittent fasting, which is portable, proven right. Humans have been going periods of that food for a very, very long time. Since we were. Since before we were humans, so to speak, Homo sapiens. And the changes that you see with something like. And just to define what I'm talking about, specifically in my case, intermittent fasting would be 16 hours of fasting, eight hour feeding window. And generally within that eight hour feeding window, I'm having two big meals. That's it. And it's. Mark Matson is a scientist, M A T T S O N who's done a lot on this. But you want to have at least 16 hours so that you deplete your liver of glycogen and then your body develops the machinery to turn on ketones more effectively. Right. But you do that. I mean, my entire family has insulin insensitivity. We have a lot of wonky genetics for this stuff. And if you're getting regular testing, don't just do fasting glucose, get your insulin measured and also do an oral glucose tolerance test. There's a lot more you should test, but at least hit those three. And after four to six weeks of intermittent fasting, number one, all of my energy dips that I used to remedy with caffeine, gone. Like completely gone. Just sustained energy. And when I woke up, I was awake. All right. One of the benefits of ketones and my lab work, the oral glucose tolerance test, my doctors were like a plus plus.

[Jay Shetty]

Wow.

[Tim Ferriss]

Four to six weeks. That's nothing. That is nothing. It's also. Well, we can come to. If we want to talk about asceticism and just like the actual. I think values that are a little more esoteric like fasting and stuff, abstaining. I think there's a lot to it. Q Seneca, it's got a lot on that. But what if you could only subtract and you could do that also by looking at what you're spending your time on. Like do an 8020 analysis, but identify the peak energy drainers in terms of activities, people, et cetera. Okay. What if you could only remove. You can't add more stuff.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, that's a great question.

[Tim Ferriss]

Right. So how do you. How do you develop a system to block or say no to these things?

[Jay Shetty]

Totally.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. Subtraction. Subtraction as a flip, I would say on the default. Very helpful. Similarly, you could ask whatever your common practice is or whatever rule you have in place, like, what if I did the opposite for 48 hours or a week? This. What if I did the opposite? I think is very powerful.

[Jay Shetty]

Give me an example of something that you could flip that way.

[Tim Ferriss]

My first job out of college was as a technical sales guy at a mass data storage company. So we're selling at the time. I mean, it's laughable now, but, you know, petabytes, oh my God, these network storage systems to movie studios and national geologic survey and so on. All of the experienced sales guys got in the office whenever they got in the office. Let's call it nine. And then from nine to five, they're sending emails and making cold calls, trying to reach CTOs and CEOs mostly. And I was having terrible results doing this. And most of them were having terrible results, but that's how they did it, right? And so what do I know? I'm fresh out of college. So I was just copying them. And at some point I'm like, this sucks. And I'm almost. I was one of the lowest paid people in the company. I'm like, I'm living in a very expensive part of the country. This is in the Bay Area. Like, I'm eating a jack in the box, for God's sake. Like through the drive through. Like, I need to. If I'm going to make more money with commissions, I need to solve this. So I was like, all right, what if I did the opposite? What's the opposite? Don't make any calls between nine to five. Okay? And I started making calls between seven and nine and then from five to seven. And what I figured out very quickly is that part of the reason the results were so bad between nine to five is CTOS and CEOs are busy, busy. Of course they are. So they have gatekeepers. They have. They have bulletproof vests in the form of people who say no. Yeah. And those people are usually gone before nine and they're gone after five. And so I had multiple experiences of calling pretty large companies. And literally the person who answered the phone like a receptionist was the president or CEO of the company.

[Jay Shetty]

That's crazy.

[Tim Ferriss]

Within the span of, I want to say, two or three months, two very large Competitors who had New York and LA offices. I outsold all of our largest competitor, which I think was publicly traded, even then outsold their entire offices combined. By doing what? Just by doing the opposite?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Because if it's not working.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. If it's not working, try the opposite. And if that doesn't work, okay, you try something else.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

I mean, with the podcast, for instance, like, everybody, almost everybody, even still today, offers advertisers, net 30 terms, net 60 terms. For people who don't know what that means. That means that you run the ad, they don't pay for it for 30 to 60 days. And that can create a lot of complexity because you need someone to chase them down. There are going to be people who relate. There are lots of invoices and accounts payable, accounts receivable. There's all sorts of shenanigans that goes on. And I was like, all right, well, what's the opposite? Prepayment. That's it. Everybody prepays.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

What does that look like? Okay. And another maxim, I guess, of mine is like, try the ideal thing first.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

You can always do the standard later or you can do the complicated thing later. But, like, what would my dream be? My dream would be people pay in advance and was able to make it work. And I was like, wow, well, I'm glad we tried that first.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And there are a lot of examples like that.

[Jay Shetty]

These are great questions and everyone can find them at.

[Tim Ferriss]

Tim Blog is the website. There are literally thousands of pages of free stuff. If you go to Tim blog, 17, however you want to spell it, the number or spell it out, and that there's a PDF with like 17 of these questions.

[Jay Shetty]

Amazing.

[Tim Ferriss]

And I use them all the time. I still use them all the time.

[Jay Shetty]

When you say all the time, do you have a regimen of how often you reuse them or just whenever it feels right? Like it's.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's more when they feel right.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So I would say most frequently, it's like if. If I'm starting to grind my teeth or just wake up and I've got the, like, type of groan, like, yeah, probably time to break out the toolkit.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Something is not something. Chafing.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Or on the flip side, for instance, I have one or two startups that I'm going to be getting involved with and they're going to be very exciting, big commit projects.

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, wow.

[Tim Ferriss]

And it's like, okay, these are going to be very fast moving, very competitive. Let me test a whole bunch of assumptions about these industries. Because I'm advising typically to be helpful. Helpful. And I will pull these questions out.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

I'm like, what does everyone say you need to do?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. Is there anything to support that? Or like science? Is it just that somebody did that first and then everybody else copied and they're like, well, that's just how it works.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Which is usually the case.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Okay. You know what is doing the opposite look like, what might that look like? And 80% of it's going to get thrown out. But you don't need 100%.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

You just need one or two. Little leverage. So I use it for the good stuff too.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. No, I love that. I love having a core base of questions to come back to rather than just reminders or reflections or. Yeah, questions. Just. Great. Because you can, you can usually tell straight away that you've been chasing too many field mice.

[Tim Ferriss]

Exactly. And what I like about that is it's, you know, I've tried for myself over time to make these questions like, tighter and tighter and tighter. Because when I'm running around, even if I'm not journaling, if I'm just sitting on a train ride or a plane and I'm thinking to myself, man, why am I so stressed out?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Right.

[Tim Ferriss]

I have other tools that I'll use. People might be familiar with some of them from the four hour work week. And I didn't create them. Like 80, 20 analysis, et cetera.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Calendar reviews, past year reviews, all that stuff. Fear setting. But you can just sit there, look out the window and ponder some of these questions. And then you're like, yeah, too many field mice. Yeah, too many field mice. I'm always slightly hungry. Why? Right. Existentially, there's some malaise why I'm eating field mice. Nice.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, it's. It's when we, when we were walking over to the studio and we were talking on the way and I was saying, yeah, like, I feel like I've. This is finally a year where I'm know what to say. No to what to say. Right. It's. It's that I didn't ask you in that way. And I love that language for it because it was that I was, I spent years over. Committing, under, committing, not know, you know, all that kind of, all the, all the versions of it. Like you just said, like, do the ideal, do the opposite, figure it out. And then, and then you start going, okay, no, I finally found a flow through asking these questions and guess what? The flow will feel be just disrupted again by something else and those questions will become valuable again.

[Tim Ferriss]

And so yeah, you're never. It's not set it and forget it.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly. Yeah. And that's.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's like meditating or weightlifting or whatever. I guess it's a practice so you come back to it.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

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[Jay Shetty]

I also find like if you just get good at what if you can figure out the process of doing one thing well, that process usually helps you do multiple things well.

[Tim Ferriss]

Oh, it's all the same, right? As far as I can tell.

[Ad Host]

Don't you feel that way?

[Jay Shetty]

Like yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's easy to lose sight of that, right? It's like I was just in in New Mexico doing a short meditation retreat which I find helpful. Nothing like what you've done but you know, sure, sure, sure. Little check in with, with some teachers. And one of the meditation teachers, Valerie at Mountain Cloud in Santa Fe, New Mexico, used to be a very high level, like world class flute player.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

She and I were comparing notes on, in her case, flute. And then I used to compete in archery and we were comparing notes and I really realized, holy. I totally. I was having some challenges with meditation. I was having a really hard time with this retreat. I was just like, really frustrated a lot of the time. And I thought to myself, oh, wow, her discussing flute made me think of archery. And there are all of these things from archery that I can just copy and paste directly into meditation.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

And then literally right after that, the next three sits totally different world. And I was like, wow, how funny it is that even at this point, after making a career of drawing parallels between fields, I had sat there and I'm like, I need to get better at meditating and hadn't even looked in other areas of my life to copy and paste.

[Jay Shetty]

Literally.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, it's like, dummy God, come on, Ferris.

[Jay Shetty]

No, I feel like that all the time. I was this recently. I got. I mean, not that I. I'm not even sure if I'm going to do it for real, but it was like I got sent an audition for an actual acting gig and it was interesting, the role was interesting. And I was like, oh, this is a bit of flattering, this is a bit fun. Like, let's see. And then like, all the like, fear came in around like, oh my God, what if I do it and I fail? And like, what if I send an audition tape and I look like a fool? And what if someone like, sees this and then thinks all my other stuff isn't, you know, whatever. All the stuff that. And I was like, wait a minute,

[Ad Host]

like, why am I.

[Jay Shetty]

And I was like, oh, of course I'm scared because I haven't got a coach and I haven't done any classes to see if I even enjoy it or like it. And I haven't even done the scales version of like, you know, making different faces or. And then, and then I got a coach and it was like within hours. I was like, oh, I could do this. I could give it a go if I wanted to. Like, I could give an audition not saying I could get the role. I could do the audition with a little bit of confidence because now I had a system and I had tools and the coach would talk about how, like, he was like, you know, if you're doing theater, you got to be Able to, to like, be big. And he goes. So I always try and get everyone to be a 10. And so you start at a 10 and then for TV, you roll that emotion back down.

[Tim Ferriss]

I'm so introverted. This is like my nightmare. Yeah, I remember doing a little bit of TV way back in the day. And they're like, okay, just more energy, more energy. And they did. They kept telling me, more energy. And I'm just like, bro, maybe this isn't for me, but for me it was the technique.

[Ad Host]

It was like really helpful to go,

[Jay Shetty]

he's like, acted as a 10, 10. And then for TV, you'd roll it back into it. And I was like, what a cool, like, technique.

[Ad Host]

And I was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[Jay Shetty]

And I, I was actually gonna ask you, have you read the book the Zen of Archery? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought so. I was like, I was thinking about. I've. I've got some favorite stories from that book. It's a great book.

[Tim Ferriss]

I'll start another one because I was talking about music and it ties into a lot of what we're talking about. One of my favorite short books, I can't remember who recommended this to me. Might have been Seth Godin. It's called the Art of Possibility by, I want to say, Benjamin Zander. Blanking on his wife's name, which is embarrassing, but Zander Z A N D E R. And it's a conductor, very high level orchestral conductor. And it is a wonderful book. It ties into everything that we're talking about. So for folks who want. I think it's like 150 pages or something. Really, really exceptional book.

[Jay Shetty]

Wow.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, that's cool. I love it. Tim, you've been so fun to talk to, as always.

[Tim Ferriss]

This is like, yeah, my pleasure, man.

[Jay Shetty]

You're such a fascinating individual, truly. And I'm so grateful that you've always been the human guinea pig because it's fun being in your mind and talking to you just about things you're exploring. Because I think it brings back a zest for life. Naturally, it's contagious. It creates this curiosity in everyone. And at the same time, I think we've talked about so many practical things that people can actually apply in their lives. I wanted to end with two things, segments.

[Ad Host]

One of them is a bunch of

[Jay Shetty]

questions that we just got from our audience that we love, that I wanted to throw at you.

[Tim Ferriss]

You want me to keep my answers short or what do you. What do you want?

[Ad Host]

No, these ones you can flow a bit. Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

You can Riff a bit.

[Ad Host]

These are questions, kind of what you

[Jay Shetty]

were saying, questions that you asked repeatedly. There are certain questions that we found our audience loves knowing the answer to from different people, and so we throw them out to you. So this one is what makes a good friend? Friend.

[Tim Ferriss]

What makes a good friend? That is a damn good question. I would say it's someone who says what they mean, means what they say. Who's reliable, you know, someone you can share your joys and sorrows with over time. I mean, that's about it. I would say that over time this applies across the board. Intelligence in quotation marks, because what does that even mean? Has become less and less important. Important to me. Like trustworthiness and reliability come way before that now.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Not to say my friends are stupid. Like my friends tend to be, you know, they tend to be pretty smart. But I'm not sorting first by that.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, I love. Everyone who's made it now is wondering, wait a minute. That makes sense. What's the difference between being efficient and cutting corners?

[Tim Ferriss]

I mean, what comes to mind for me is cutting corners. Corners implies aiming for short term gain, but long term side effects or consequences. Cutting corners implies you're not doing something you should do. And I would expand that further just to say that I do not focus on efficiency as much as people think efficiency. And I'm borrowing from Peter Drucker here also the effective executive. Everybody should read that. Holy cow, what a great book. But Peter Drucker paraphrasing, effectiveness is doing the right things and then efficiency is doing things right. The way I would reframe that is what you do. Like picking your big yes matters a lot more than how you get there. It's kind of like if you're starting in Kansas and you're intending to California be car pointed towards New York. It's like you could be Mario Andretti. Doesn't matter, you're going the wrong direction. So the what matters a lot more?

[Jay Shetty]

What advice has made you the most money?

[Tim Ferriss]

These are good questions. I like these. It's hard to attribute to one person. I wish I could, but it's from a couple of different folks. Well, I'll actually give a nod to some folks who have informed the thinking, aiming to be a category of one. So don't aim to be the best. Although I think that's fine once you do what I'm about to describe, aim to be the only. And we were chatting a bit before we started recording about how the podcast landscape has changed and it would be very hard to Start my show now.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely right.

[Tim Ferriss]

You would need to be more probably narrowly focused and differentiated in a bunch of different ways. So for that there's a great essay find [e-mail], kevin Kelly wrote 1000 true fans. I think it was true 10 years ago and it is going to become ultra, ultra true as AI starts to gobble everything. 1000 true fans. You got to read it. The law of category is a chapter from. From the 22 immutable laws of Marketing. I think I put it. I think I excerpted it in Tools of Titans or Tribe of Mentors because that chapter had a huge impact. Blue Ocean Strategy also those are all related. So the advice to basically aim to be the only. Definitely one another one would be. And this relates to I guess the angel investing and so on is to. And Marc Andreessen, very famous entrepreneur and technologist. Just an investor, but also the late Scott Adams. Controversial guy, but certainly was very good at what he did with Dilbert. Had similar echoes of this. Basically talking about two things. The first is that trying to become top 1% and this relates to the first point. Like Michael Jordan in basketball. Very hard. Yo Yo Ma. Very hard. Almost everybody's going to get cut. But if you can be top say 25% in two fields that are rarely combined. Right. Software development, although AI is going to kill that. But software and let's just say debate or law degree. Oh, that's interesting. So I tend to think about combining top 25% of fields that are rarely combined. And then the last one would be choosing projects based on acquiring skills and either building or deepening relationships that transcend that project. Because a lot of my projects fail by any external metric. But if I'm building friendships with very interesting people who are smart and I'm developing skills that are kind of transferable over time, you just win. It's very hard not to win.

[Jay Shetty]

That's great advice. That's huge. There's so much in there. Huge advice. Thank you.

[Ad Host]

This one.

[Jay Shetty]

What's something that the top 1% obsessor over that most people never even think about?

[Tim Ferriss]

I mean this is going to sound self serving because my, my 850 page book is about this saying. No. The absolute sacredness of focus. They're all. I mean some people are better at this than others but in their own way they are very, very militant about that in a way that's very different from say the top 40%.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Tim Ferriss]

Like the top 1 to 5% percent even if they don't realize it have set up systems or they have employees or they have, you know, no available email address or whatever, or unusual ways to calendar. Even if they don't realize it, they're very, very good at firewalling their attention.

[Ad Host]

What's the allure of.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes, like what is the allure? Is it people pleasing? Is it distraction? Is it busyness? Like, what have you found to be the.

[Tim Ferriss]

I think those are all good answers. Right. So I think there's four fomo, because everything in modern marketing is intended to foster fear of missing out. But if you only have one good idea or one good chance, you're screwed. Yeah, you, you need to develop and you only do this through experimentation and time on the field. The confidence in your ability to generate or capitalize on opportunities. Right. This is incredibly important. And I, I mentioned angel investing a bit. For people who don't know, that just means investing in my case, in companies very, very early. Right. So when it's two people and an idea on a napkin, investing in those people. If you don't have the ability to say no, you run out of money, you're dead, game over. That's the end of your angel in this day. Because most of them are going to go to zero. And I would say that that seems like something that doesn't apply everywhere else. But guess what? You can make more money later, as far as we know. You can't create more time later. Back to Seneca on the shortness of life. And people are really burning time in ways they will realize are pretty terrifying. But FOMO is a piece of it. People pleasing is another, which generally is short term nice, long term mean. You always end up paying the piper with that one.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's like you're going to have to have an uncomfortable conversation.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Do you want to have two years of pain before that or do you want to just do that now? Yeah, right.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Then I would say field mice. Right. If you don't have an antelope and someone else is like, hey, come help me with my antelope.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Hey, why don't you come to my party about my antelope? You're like, antelope sexy.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

All right. Sure, I'll say it's your party. Sure, I'll come to your. Yeah, you know, bat mitzvah and magic show. Sure, I'll do this. Sure, I'll do that.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

You know.

[Ad Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And all of a sudden, before you know it, your calendar's full of field mice.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Those are some of the pieces. You can spend quite a Lot of time on, on that, diagnosing it, but those are a few of the big ones.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely great answers. All right. What's the emotional cost of constantly trying to improve yourself?

[Tim Ferriss]

The emotional cost of constantly trying to improve yourself in a vacuum without the acceptance piece is that you always think you're broken. And that is too high a cost for anyone to pay. It's an expanded discussion in the self help trap blog post that I wrote, by the way. I think it's probably now within 24 hours. I knew it was going to be my most popular blog post of the last 10 years. Probably.

[Jay Shetty]

Wow.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's wild. I didn't know if it would resonate, but. Holy shit. So the cost to constantly improve yourself, almost by definition you have to constantly be looking for ways to fix yourself, which means you're looking for ways you're broken. And that means you're always in the red. Right. There's always one more problem. And so the feeling of peace eludes you by one more workshop, one more book, one more retreat, one more psychedelic whatever it is, you're always going to be one step behind. If that's the only lens through which you're looking at things, the achievement, self improvement side, if you have the acceptance side, then you can say, start to balance out the wobble board.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So I would say that's, that's what comes to mind.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. It's almost like the old idea of climbing the mountain and pausing to look at the view and then climb some more and looking at the view and yeah.

[Ad Host]

You know, it's like you'd never go

[Jay Shetty]

on a hike and not stop and look at the view. Yeah, it's a ridiculous idea. You'd never just go, I'm just gonna, I'm only gonna look at the view when I get to the top. And then there is no top because you just keep discovering a new top and it's like, no, I, I grew. We got to a flat piece of land and then I stopped and we had a little, little, you know, sandwiches and had some lunch and looked at the view and had a bit of peace and appreciate how far we'd come.

[Tim Ferriss]

And. Yeah, and, and furthermore, I'll just add to this the hyper individualism of most self help, I think is very problematic. And I, I, I want to keep this, not prevent it from becoming a TED talk. But Pema Chodron has a really great point poem who Henry Schucman introduced me to actually. And I won't be able to recite it because it's pretty long but it effectively, it's from When Things Fall Apart.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Great book.

[Tim Ferriss]

And talks about ascending the mountaintop, just as you were describing. And the problem with that is that you leave your alcoholic sister, your schizophrenic friend behind, and then when you get to the top, you realize, oh, it just descends. And actually the mountain destination descends back into the messiness of human relationships. So that's.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Wow.

[Tim Ferriss]

If you want to be on the playing field.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. That's powerful.

[Tim Ferriss]

I think it really. Another question, like a question that I'm asking myself right now, which is not one of those 17, is what if almost everything you did or project you added had to improve your relational life somehow? That's the criteria.

[Jay Shetty]

Or because that's your antelope right now.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. Well, it also feeds and reinforces and strengthens everything else. Or what if just to make it simple, you put together your to do list? What if for the next week, two weeks, the first thing you had to do was one that was going to improve your relationships some way? By the way, it doesn't need to be a big thing. Yeah, sure, it could be a big having that long overdue hard conversation with your parents, but that's a heavy lift. It could also be saying hi to your significant other in the morning and kissing him or her on the cheek before you jump on your phone. Right. It doesn't have to be a big thing.

[Jay Shetty]

Totally. Yeah. All right, last one of these. If someone feels behind in life, what would you tell them?

[Tim Ferriss]

I'd say a few things. I'd say, number one, it's never too late. I've seen so many examples of people doing amazing stuff starting in their 50s, 60s, 70s. Jim Collins, actually, his new book, I don't know if it's out yet, but what to make of a life profiles something like 30 people. And these are incredible examples of success. And a lot of them did their most important work in their 50s, 60s, and 70s, so it's not too late, number one. And number two, I'd recommend. I'm giving so many book recommendations, people are just like, oh, God. More.

[Jay Shetty]

We'll make a list from this podcast.

[Tim Ferriss]

So 4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman.

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, I love that.

[Tim Ferriss]

I think is a phenomenal book. And there's a chapter in that book specifically, you can find it online called Cosmic Insignificance Therapy. And people should check this out. And this is not. Some people are like, oh, Tim's become so nihilistic. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, this isn't nihilism. But you can make your problems seem less life or death by zooming out. And Oliver does this very well. A friend of mine, Ed Cook, he. He was a world class memory competitor for a long time. He trained, I think it was Joan Allaire, a writer, to become national memory champion in the US in a book called Moonwalking with Einstein. I mean, the guy's a stud.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Tim Ferriss]

And Ed Cook will do the same thing, even though I don't even think he knows who Oliver Berkman is, which is he'll imagine zooming out to above his house if he's really stressed out, zoom above his house, then zoom out to above the city, then the country, then out to seeing the planet, then zoom out even further looking at the solar system. And there's something, something to it that almost always takes some of the pressure out of the tires.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely.

[Tim Ferriss]

And it's like, okay, at the end of the day, and I don't think this is bad news, but like, we are a bunch of monkeys on a spinning rock in the middle of the cosmos. Right. So maybe the fact that somebody said a, you know, sent a really pissy email to you, like, ah, like in the grand scheme of things.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

Like, okay. And I need that for myself too. I'm not wagging a finger at people. I'm like, look, I can get wound up about that. I'm really good in crisis. And with giants, giant like projects and problems, it's the dumbest in the world. Like somebody cuts me off at the buffet line in like an airplane lounge or something and I'm just like, really? That's what you're gonna get wound up about?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

For like two days, like for the next eight hour flight, you're gonna think about that guy. What's wrong with you?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

So trust me, it's like I'm drinking the medicine too.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, absolutely. No, no, I can relate to both. And. And it's both. It's like there's times in life where thinking what you do matters. Is it everything?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And then there's times in life that embracing your own insignificance.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Is the only way to function.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. There's a great Bertrand Russell quote. It's along the lines of, you know, the sure sign of impending nervous breakdown is taking one's work incredibly seriously. Something like that. I'm butchering it, but it's very close.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, I like that.

[Tim Ferriss]

And the dose makes the poison. Right. Like, you have to believe in what you're doing.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And at the same time kind of recognize like we're all in the mo show here.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. As the Buddha would say, to hold it, you have to hold it and hold the bird in your hand, but not too tightly. So you hold it too tightly, you suffocate it, and if you don't hold it at all, then you can't help it. And so, yeah, it's hard. It's hard. And you're always going to go in between.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, you got to crush a few birds first and let a few go to figure it out.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly, yeah. Sadly. Sadly, Tim, we end every episode with the final five. These have to be answered in one sentence maximum. So these are short. So, Tim, these are your final five. Question number one. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

[Tim Ferriss]

Don't believe everything you think.

[Jay Shetty]

Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

[Tim Ferriss]

You need money to make money.

[Jay Shetty]

Question number three. What did you used to value that you don't value anymore?

[Tim Ferriss]

Achievement without acceptance.

[Jay Shetty]

What did you never value before but that you do deeply value now?

[Tim Ferriss]

Emotional experience.

[Jay Shetty]

Really? Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

I mean, I thought emotions were just limbic systems, system liabilities for a long time.

[Jay Shetty]

What changed your mind on that?

[Tim Ferriss]

Well, a few things. I mean, I realized you just can't get around it. Like, who are we kidding, right? Like,

[Jay Shetty]

no, but I think it's a really good conversation.

[Tim Ferriss]

That's. That's one. Right. You just can't get around it. So coming back to the serenity, where it's like, yeah, good luck with that, Ferris. And even if you could become Spock, you're going to interact with people who are not Spock. So we're right back at square one.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And that. That's one. And secondly, there's quite a long story behind this that I won't get into,

[Jay Shetty]

but you can if you want.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah. I would just say the. To experience the full richness of being human, you have to embrace being human. And a very large part of that is emotional. Emotional.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. Well said. Fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

[Tim Ferriss]

I'd say smile and say hi first.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Tim Ferriss]

And I'm borrowing that from. From Gabby Reese, amazing woman who I interviewed alongside Laird Hamilton a long time ago. But, yeah, go first was hers. Yeah. Like, smile and say hi first.

[Jay Shetty]

It changes everything. It actually does. It actually changes everything. If you walked into a room and brought the energy you hope to get out of it.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's like, yeah, there's another. This isn't. This isn't as poetic, but there's another one that somebody told me at one point. I'm like, oh, God, that's good. They said if walk out one day and you beat an. That person's an. If you walk outside and everyone's an. You're. That. You're the asshole. You know?

[State Farm Advertiser]

It's true.

[Jay Shetty]

It's true. I. I know plenty of those.

[Tim Ferriss]

Go get some ketones from macadamia nuts or a cold shower.

[Jay Shetty]

I love it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I hope everyone checks out. Tim blog forward slash 17 for the 17 questions and people can actually read your new book. Kind of to get. You want to talk about that?

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. People can get. If they go. That is a URL. Kind of confusing, but just type Tim Blog in. You can get. I want to say 175 to 200 pages of my various books to read. Plenty of actionable, Tons of actionable stuff. It's not just buttering you up for the book. Like, you don't ever have to buy the books. I mean, there's more in the books, obviously, but there's. If you go to Tim Blau, you'll find 175 plus pages. And then for the no book, which is kind of the code name for the book about saying no. Definitely my funniest book so far because I did it with Neil Strauss, who acted as my student and he was so bad, so comically bad at saying no. There's a lot of funny exchanges, real text messages and experiments and stuff. But you can find, I want to say, 5075 pages of that at Tim Blog Notebook and. Yeah, so all that stuff. All that stuff is free. People can check it out.

[Jay Shetty]

Well, thank you. Well, everyone has been listening and watching. Make sure you tag me and Tim on Instagram and X TikTok wherever you're viewing the show or seeing clips. I want to know what resonated with you, what you're practicing with, what you're trying, what you're exploring. I love seeing how what we discuss here turns into reality. So let us know what you're taking action on. And, Tim, thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.

[Tim Ferriss]

My pleasure.

[Jay Shetty]

On the show and we won't take nine years again.

[Tim Ferriss]

You're very good at what you do, man. It's fun to watch and it's fun to experience.

[Jay Shetty]

Also, it's easy with someone like you. This is like a dream. This is like my favorite kind of episode. You're the best. Thank you man.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah, thanks.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.

[Jay Shetty]

If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential.

[Tim Ferriss]

I don't believe that comparison is the thief of joy. I think envy is the thief of joy. I think social comparison is invaluable.

[State Farm Advertiser]

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