B (4:56)

And so it was an ask for the Super Bowl. When was this coming? In the middle, middle of the year or what?

C (5:03)

You know, No, I think it came in, you know, probably, probably no. Mid summer, because I remember we. The pitch was virtual because l' Oreal is quite dispersed. And I remember that we did the final pitch when I was on my August vacation in Napa Valley and I was on it, on Zoom, freaking out because I was so excited about the work that I remember it drastically impacted my vacation. So I. So I think we probably, probably would have been briefed in early July.

B (5:37)

So you get the brief. Did you see a bunch of rounds of creative before you got to this idea or how would you describe it?

C (5:49)

Well, this is, by the way, what I'm excited to get into, to talk about how the idea came about and evolved, because I do think when there are pieces of work that tend to bubble up in the industry, they get endlessly deconstructed and people tease out all these smart things about it. And, and sometimes the reality is how it happened is much more visceral. And in fact, I, I believe oftentimes authors of great ideas don't. They find it in a flash and they find it instinctually and they don't even really understand what they're building versus, you know, after the fact there, there's a much more academic breakdown. The other thing I'd love to start with, if it's all right, is I don't know if you've ever read a novel where in the beginning of the book there's a ton of characters and they list out the characters beforehand, which always gives me tons of anxiety because I know I'll never remember them. But I'm going to say we about the Sarah V team, but I would love to just mention the people involved, if that's okay.

B (6:50)

Of course. Yeah.

C (6:53)

So I operated as the hands on creative director and the executive sponsor. And we did it as a, as a skunk works type of pitch because again, it was a pitch for a project. It was in the middle of the summer. It came in through the health division, actually, because the health company had worked with CeraVe. So the cast of characters for this story, when I say we, when I say we're doing all these things, my creative team are named Alex and Avi. Alex Holm and Avi Steinbeck. I've worked with them for a number of years. I brought them over from tbwa. They're amazing. Our producers were Reagan and Marissa. Our strategists were Carlos and Ben. Our account leads were Tina and Liesel. And we also plugged in and integrated with an incredible social and influencer team led by Charlie Tonsil. And that group is Ansley, Christine and Olivia. And that's, that's pretty much the crew. So again, I want to make sure that when, when I tell this story, you could picture myself along with all those names.

B (7:55)

And these are. When you say skunk works, it was, it was people from Ogilvy North America or was it. Were they. Were they the majority of them in New York?

C (8:03)

The majority were in New York. Only because I, I firmly believe that small teams win big. And when this came in, I personally feel like things like a, like a, a Super bowl campaign, a contained sort of Finite delivery for a client. I feel incredibly confident in getting together just the right amount of people to do it so you can focus and work fast and, and that's, you know, as I go through how it all happened you'll, you'll see. But so, so I, I grabbed Alex and Avi just because they were incredibly close by and then we, we sourced the, the rest of the group to, for who had capacity, who we thought was right. But we, we did keep the creative that small. So instead of taking a Super bowl brief and opening it up to the whole department or the whole region or five teams, I specifically chose Alex and AI and knew that the three of us were going to because we've done it before and knew we were going to get to ideas that we liked.

B (9:06)

And so for Carlos and Ben what role did they play in the development of the idea, the strategy?

C (9:13)

So Ben came in a little bit later. Ben Greengrass because he's more of a social and influencer trained strategist. Carlos Dorenbaum is the CSO of the health practice in New York and he had experience on CeraVe. So that was, so that was a no brainer to bring him in because he, he understood what the brand had done Today obviously we were not going to do anything like the dermatologist heavy, you know, advertising that, that had been done through the health group. But what we got from Carlos and, and actually you know sometimes you need a really aggressive strategy to make something boring interesting. What we didn't because we really wanted to win. I do believe sometimes if you can have a brilliant idea that's very close to the goal that that is not, not a large step away. Obviously in a competitive landscape if you give a client an idea that is so clearly strategic and on their strategy and great, you're going to stand a better chance of winning. So we actually went with the, the strategy that's written on the bottle of CeraVe which is developed with derms. And so the whole idea is that against the competition and I think the competition has changed quite a bit. But at that time being developed moisturizer developed alongside real board certified dermatologists was, was a different. And so we basically said how do we make develop with derms something completely, you know, completely understood by everybody after we're done with the Super Bowl. And the other, the, the other ask was just to try to approach a more male audience because female consumers love CeraVe and they know about it and their boyfriends or spouses or single guys either don't necessarily consider moisturizer or we're not choosing CeraVe, because I guess they weren't, you know, maybe the boys aren't as interested in what the dermatologists have to say.

B (11:13)

So the. The client in. In their briefing in that rfp, are they giving any insights as to what they want to lean in on? Are they talking about develop with derms or that just come out of your conversations?

C (11:26)

I think they. The brand to that point had been doing traditional work that was. That was quite. In the health pharma space. You're not. Not really breaking through, probably ticking a lot of boxes. And then socially, the brand was really interesting. On TikTok, they were partnering with creators. They were quite prolific. It was a little scattered, but they. They had a. They had a big following. The thing in the, The. The RFP and in the Q and A was like, you need a real meaningful role for the derms. That is like what we stand on. So you've got to come up with something that incorporates dermatologists. We need multiple ones in the super bowl ad, we. Ones in the surround sound. So we just thought, okay, well, that sucks. Well, yeah, I mean, maybe you go or you go, okay, good, that's fixed. So I. So I think that's why we said, well, if we need to show dermatologists and develop with derms is the differentiator and it's written on the bottle, let's just do that. So that was that, you know, but.

B (12:26)

But I mean, I got to assume that sort of you had to figure out what. In what way they would be represented. Right. Because you got them in, but you got them in an amazingly funny way. Right?

C (12:37)

Yeah. And that all came later. You know, we need. We needed, you know. You know, I think at the end of the day, I think where this project has shone, has shined is in the ecosystem. But, you know, the truth and something I believe more than anything these days is you have to anchor an ecosystem in a piece of content. You need to write some form or some piece of content, be it a manifesto, a film, or one video that. That sort of gives you the vibe, the world, the characters. And so I think we just knew when we. When we came up with ideas we liked, we were just gonna. We were just gonna from the get go, find. Find a way for derms to be part of it. And so, you know, sometimes, you know, the clear blue sky is terrifying for a creative. It's the constraints that. That make it interesting. Playing, playing off them and figuring out that's how you get to the things that feel really Unexpected is, you know, how the hell are we gonna have a great idea that is heavy on dermatologists?

A (13:34)

We'll be right back after this message. For over 55 years, Effie has been the global authority on marketing effectiveness. They lead the way with the largest, most prestigious marketing effectives awards across 130 markets worldwide. And their coveted Effie index ranks the most effective brands, marketers, and agencies globally. But EFFIE is more than awards. They're dedicated to helping all marketers, from seasoned CMOs to those just getting started, understand what makes marketing effective by equipping them with insights, tools, and inspiration they need to succeed. Learn more@effie.org that's E F-F I E.org now back to the show.

B (14:22)

So where do you go with that? So this is day one. You've gotten this sense of it all. Where do you start to go? What do you start to see?

C (14:33)

So Alex and Avi go off, and then at the same time, knowing how social savvy this client was, I called Charlie Townsell, who's. Who. Who is the. The president of PR and social at Ogilvy and a great partner that I've worked with whenever we have an opportunity to do a big creative thing that. That can be of that more modern shape. So she immediately started doing some social strategy, some social listening. So we sort of, the. We kind of, with Carlos developed like we are going to do, develop with derms, and we're going to do something that breaks around the super bowl that features derms. And then Charlie just started pulling some. Some interesting stuff. So as we're going, the. Alex and Avi, you know, probably met with me after, you know, maybe 10 days, and they had probably eight or nine ideas. And we sat and we, you know, and they're. And they're. They're a phenomenal creative team because they, I think I just probably work very well with them. They always bring things that are interesting and they don't have to be perfectly figured out, but they've. They, you know, whenever I have a review with them, we get into an interesting conversation. There's always things we can hook into and that just may be a comfortable working style. But I think when we, when we got down to it, we had, you know, like three ideas, and they were not Michael Cera ideas. The boys had a Michael Cera idea. And I don't, I don't remember what it was, but I didn't. The story wasn't interesting to me. It just didn't. It didn't. There was no steam in It.

B (16:11)

So that, so they had an idea for Michael Cera, but it wasn't in your favorite three.

C (16:17)

It was like an early fodder thing and it just wasn't interesting enough. Yeah, so we're, you know, I put some work up on the wall and then I bring, you know, we bring the team together and that would be, I suppose, strategy. And I brought, you know, Charlie kind of brought some social listening and some social thinking. And, and I, I shared the, the ideas we liked. And by the way, we pitched with three. We didn't, we didn't just pitch with Sarah. So we, so we had a couple ideas that were great. I mean, like, if I'm going to remember, I don't want to waste too much time on what we didn't do. But one of them was.

B (16:49)

No, no, that's okay, man. We, we love that. We love that.

C (16:52)

You know, but one of them was, was, you know, Harrison Ford goes to the dermatologist and he realizes that Cerave is, is like such a complete skincare solution that he turns into a, a skinfluencer. You know, something like that. You know, and they're, they're good. And obviously, you know, you, you can see the heads and tails of that. So anyway, so we're looking at the work and Charlie, you know, and there's probably. And this is where it's kind of fun to, to tell the, the whole story because on one hand, Alex and Avi kind of had the Sarah Sarah V joke because it's kind of right there. But then also I think someone tweeted or posted on Reddit like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if Sarah V And Sarah did a collab or something? So, you know, we're going through the work and Charlie's showing me some stuff and, and she said, I think there's something funny here. And I said, ah, we had something. I don't know. And, and, and I think the idea on the board was about, was about doing a collaboration. But she, you know, and this is how good creative stuff happens is you. You kind of. So she, she made me pause on it and I thought, okay, okay, if she thinks it's interesting. And the boys did go there and then very quickly, standing in a hallway in front of gator boards, if a collaboration is boring, well, how do you make it interesting? Well, why don't we, why don't we have Michael Ceram make his own super bowl ad and just pretend that he's complete, you know, have him be delusional and have him pretend that he Invented Cerave. And then it's like. It's. It's about. It's not the dermatologist. It's me, Michael Cera. And then you've got this him versus the derms thing. So it. It really just. It had been.

A (18:28)

And that.

B (18:28)

And that happens in a hallway conversation.

C (18:31)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we could have been in a conference room, but I think literally, we just lined up the gator boards. It was like, on a Saturday. And it was just in front of my office because it was just more spacious.

B (18:40)

Yeah.

C (18:40)

So we're standing there, and, yes, Charlie, Carlos, Alex and Avi and I. And that's, you know, and that's how it happened. And. And then. And then you start talking. Okay. It's great. Like, what happens if he makes his own ad? That would be great. He would go completely rogue. It would be completely unhinged. It would be like a. A fever dream with him as, like, a prince, a crown prince dermatologist and all this stuff. We just start having fun. And then you're like, okay, that's great. So I. And I also believe work fast. Solve it. Solve it fast. And. And. And trust your. Trust your choices. So we probably laid out what the film would be and the idea of making it a much. A much more playful, integrated prank in less than 10 minutes, probably five to seven. And then Alex and Avi just go off and start writing it up, and Charlie goes and gathers her team and starts going. But that's the absolute truth of it is. And again, I wanted to tell this story to you because, again, I saw a presentation from Contagious, and they broke down this campaign in a really smart way. But I don't want clients to think that great ideas are the result of brilliant engineering. They're the result of sparks and fun minds coming together and getting excited. And then, yes, if it goes well, it is highly, highly intelligent. But, yes, that's how we arrived at the work that we brought to the pitch.

B (20:10)

So do you immediately. And do Alex and Charlie and Avi, do you all immediately fall in love with this as your lead idea, or do you have others? The other two that you presented, were they equally strong in terms of your. How you favored them?

C (20:27)

You know, I don't. I think at a certain point. And again, there's the additional context of this is a pitch, so we're not even trying to. If this is an existing client, we may have. Have said, this is the one. This. This one's incredible. But I think in a pitch, you've got a hedge. So No, I think we were, we were pretty, pretty excited and, and behind all three and, and I think, you know, truth be told, the, I didn't think they would buy the Sarah one because it's so, I mean it's funny. It's just funny as hell. So I, so I, I thought it was great and there was no way that wasn't, that wasn't going to be blown out beautifully in the presentation. But again, you know, this one hinges on one celebrity, one offer. You know, if it's not Harrison Ford skin influencer, it's Willem Dafoe, it's Ben Kingsley. You know what I mean? Any serious person taking on the Persona of a 16 year old is going to be funny. So I love the idea. I was excited to show it, I was proud of it from its inception. But, but again the hedges is we wanted to be on the super bowl so we weren't ready to, to fall on a sword.

B (21:40)

So how do you, how do you pitch this? Do you pitch it with an animatic? Do you pitch it with images? You sit down and you've got a sheet of paper. How do you like to pitch?

C (21:51)

I like to pitch. Well, I, I, I think, I think animatics, no bueno. I think what we did is so we pitched to a small group and Adam Kornblum was running this thing and I knew he understood ideas and I think what Adam has is he, he knows the PR hooks. So I think you play to the audience. So, so I think it was much more about, we kind of led with a headline and then we talked about. I've also, I also believe the, the Don Draper kind of big reveal doesn't really work. So we started with the press headline and then we just blew the idea. And we just wrote in a paragraph. In this campaign, Michael Cera is going to claim credit for founding, originating and owning Cereve. He is going to start a misinformation campaign on the Internet beforehand and he's going to drop his own super bowl ad and then afterwards he will be shunned by the dermatological community. He will make a gun to head forced celebrity apology video and all will be right in the world. And that, that is the original idea. And then we went through the script and we had click throughs and we did some nice comps of Sarah walking through a waterfall and Sarah in the lake. A lot of those original scenes made it into the final but it was much, you know, it was much more about, I believe in blowing the surprise so that when the audience Receives the work. They're not figuring it out. It's making sense to them before they have to make sense of it. And so we did that for all three. And then what happened is, is Adam called me. You know, we were, we were talking and, and of course I was, I was letting him know, you know, we were excited about all three and willing to do, you know, to do whatever. And so, as you know, near the end, Adam called me and just said, we really love the Sarah thing. You just gotta. You just gotta deliver Sarah. And then, you know, I do believe oftentimes in the, in the execution of any really great work, there's like always a moment of a third rail moment, you know, a moment where you've, where you take a risk. And. And so I told Adam that, you know, what we've. That we know his agent and that. And that we've kind of generally floated something and he's very interested. And that was not entirely the truth. But.

B (24:16)

So you went in, you pitched him, and you guys didn't even know if he'd be into it.

C (24:21)

Well, no, I mean, you can, of course, you know, we can't reach out to him on behalf of a client we don't have. Anyway.

B (24:26)

No, you're right, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

C (24:28)

So. So we gave a, you know, a very. Or I suppose if I'm going to take some ownership, you know, I gave a. A very positive perspective on our ability to land him. That was more based on my dreams and hopes and desires. But, but that's, but sometimes you've got to, you got to take a risk. And then, thankfully, we have a great business affairs lead named Jess Nugent. And so we, you know, we quickly, once we were given the assignment, we got a hold of Michael's agent, and it's a guy in LA named Willie who's a great, a lovely man. And Jess and I kind of got on with him and, you know, NDA'd Willie. And then we took him through the work and Willie said, look, I think this is really funny. And Michael gets offers and he, you know, he is. He's not an actor that's motivated by money. He's motivated by the quality of the work. And I will tell you, he's turned down ads, and I will also tell you that he has received more than one offer for a role in a Super bowl commercial this year. He's turned them down, but I would, I would gladly arrange a zoom with, with both of you and Michael. And so we got, you know, maybe two or three days later the opportunity. And so definitely, I mean, this, for me, I think, you know, was, was probably, was probably pretty terrifying. And we, we pop on a zoom with Michael and of course, I have this whole realization that I hadn't thought of yet, which is I'm about to throw a deck on the screen that has comps of him wearing a cerave earring, walking through a waterfall, and I've never met him. Maybe this might be, maybe this might be a little invasive.

B (26:14)

And so, so what, what's he like as a, as a person when you get on the zoom? Is he, is he as sort of humble as he appears to be and gentle as he appears to be?

C (26:25)

I, I, through the entire process, all that humble and gentle. I think in this moment, sat back, I, I don't, you know, I don't know if he's the type that likes to be pitched. I think he's quite introverted. I think it was awkward, but not in like a funny Arrested Development way. Just like slightly awkward. You know, he's, you know, he's, he plays it small. Both in real life, too. So I took him through the thing and he didn't, he didn't really, he didn't really say much. And I just, we just took him through the TV script. We didn't take him through a big complicated ecosystem because again, you know, we're trying to, we're trying to, oh, Rex, that's my dog.

B (27:09)

And he was, and he was probably aware or was he aware of that Reddit post and the, the implied connection?

C (27:15)

No, I mean, this is, you know, the Reddit post was not a famous post. I mean, this is. Okay, yeah, this is just, you know, this is just, you know, this is just make. Making sense that someone's name is the same as a brand. So he, he wasn't, you know, aware of anything related to that, but he, you know what? He quickly got. So again, we just showed him the script because I do believe if you want to land a big fish, you know, don't scare them off with a lot of responsibility, a lot of things to consider. Give him one thing to consider. And he liked it. And he just said, again, he had a poker face, but in a very small, shy way. He just said, I think, I think that's really good. I think that would be funny. That could be cool. And I was like, sounds good. All right, well, nice steep. And we signed off. And then Jess and I quickly called Willie and, well, he's like, well, you know, Michael, Michael seems to like it, so you should, you should make an offer.

B (28:06)

So let me take you back to the, to the sell in with Adam, the client. So were you, you mentioned earlier that you were kind of surprised or you weren't sure that they would buy into it. I mean l' Oreal and the background of the clients, have they shown themselves to be sort of risk takers in the past? You mentioned that some of the PR stuff on Social was, had a sort of an edginess to it, non clinical aspect to it.

C (28:35)

Never in my industry experience have I ever perceived l' Oreal to be a creative brand. Yeah, no, I mean this again, you know, this is, you know, foolishly optimistic and excited and not, not weighing yourself down. You know, I think the, the truth is and I, I think as we get into maybe later on in the story, some of the hurdles. I, I think there were some challenges for the CeraVe team within L' Oreal and for us being the creative partner in, you know, shopping and, and, and getting approvals on, on a, on a piece of work that was just so different from everything the brand has, has really done. And, and yeah, we can get into that because that is, that, that was one of, that was one of the, the hardships but, but ultimately one of the most rewarding parts of it as well. The original intention was not to make a, a great moisturizer ad. I think in the end the Michael Sarah of his own version of the ad would probably pass every single l' Oreal test because we had like, you know, the mountain scene that's dealing with dry skin and there's, you know, an application and there's a cool lagoon and there's the water. You know, every one of those things was, was actually, you know, you know, kind of pulled through that lens. Thankfully we just kept staying with it, kept iterating. But there was a moment where to get this thing going. We were at an impasse where we thought the whole point of this is he's making the wrong ad. And the team from l' Oreal said yes, but this is our ad, so it has to be the right ad. And we just said it, you know, we figured it out. But those were the, those were the kind of challenges and you know, was.

B (30:23)

This an issue of just aesthetic or you know, color and brand identity guidelines or was it deeper about.

C (30:32)

No, but when we got into the edit, well, I mean, I think the aesthetic was solved in the, in the pre production and in the production and there was a lot of debate about this color being wrong and this scene being too busy, you know, relative to the, to this Arabian l' Oreal kind of way. And so that was that. And then I think there was a kind of another, you know, interesting, both on both sides, learning for when we got to the edit. And so on the set it was about what it looked like, I think in the edit. It's about the whole piece and the narrative and what we discovered, or what I discovered and I, and I think is that we would, we put together something we thought, you know, nailed the, the, the important narrative part of it, nailed the dermatologist part at the end. What I hadn't really banked on was having deeply intellectual conversations around the jokes, you know, and, and I think, and I think again, this is like, I don't, I don't. I genuinely, you know, I, I assume some of my now friends at l' Oreal will listen to this. And so I, I don't actually say this to dig. It's just an important conversation to have, honestly, in general, which is, you know, the first line of the 32nd spot is, I'm Michael Sarah and this is my cream. The reason why we chose that line is because we wrote a bunch and we said, that's funny. And then we went to the directors, Tim and Eric, who have shot, they had a comedy show and they've shot some of the funniest sketches and commercials of all time. And Tim and Eric said, oh, that's funny. And then we showed Michael the line and he went, oh, that's funny. And that's how funny things happen, is funny people agreeing. And that is, that is true if you were ever at a table full of stand up comedians or if you were just working with funny people in the creative industry. So when I found myself at 6pm on a Zoom call going over an edit and everything was getting pulled apart, you know, there was a client that was highly, highly intellectual and they just said, I don't like that line. And I said, okay, well we think it's really funny and it gets into the story quickly. Why don't you like it? And he said, well, tell me why it's funny. And I said, well, funny because. And you know, I started. And again, I think my, you know, we'd been on this call for an hour plus. It was not, you know, everything was a, it was definitely not a big thumbs up. Every little bit was sort of prodded and poked. But I've kind of found this like existential moment where I, I really did have to sort of cool myself and say, don't.

B (33:09)

Oh, I can only imagine My God.

C (33:11)

Don'T get yourself asked off the business at the, at the one yard line, you know, But I think this is, you know, this is a challenge that, that, you know, I, I think we do often face, which is that, that the desire to understand everything, it makes a ton of sense if you're a marketer, but the, the nature of art sometimes is instinctual and, and those instinctual decisions can be appreciated by millions. But, but to sort of explain why an irreverent line, you know, strikes a funny chord, sort of becomes like a surreal experience, you know, And I found myself talking in circles and then I. The truth is it's funny because I know it's funny and because other funny people agree. And then I had to lie my way through an explanation. And I think that's a strange world to find yourself in. But I think that was a little bit of the challenge, you know, and I think, right. I don't have a solution for that in the future. But it was just, it was, it was a very pronounced moment where I completely understand smart marketers wanting to understand every choice made. But then sometimes the best things, you know, those, those choices are not intellectual choices, they're instinctual choices. And that, you know, that, that gap or whatever that is, is as I suppose, always going to be, you know, a tough aisle to cross. But, but anyway, it was a lot of that on this because there was a lot of irreverent lines and there was a lot of people interested in why, why we were defending them so firmly.

B (34:44)

So is, Is I got to assume then they pushed it into testing at some point, given that there was these sort of.

C (34:52)

No, because it wasn't. No, I think we just had to, I think we just had to negotiate our way through it and try a ton of things. And, and you know, again, the strength of the idea. I do not think a, I do not think a weaker idea would have been remotely good. I think because no matter what Michael Sarah claiming it, we never the, the social part of this thing and the intention of him making his own super bowl ad and it being outlandish, but because we had that, you know, we could have a line that we thought was laugh out loud funny. We could have a line that was just a little bit weird or a little bit funnier, you know, and, yeah, and we could, we could kind of, you know, I think the idea itself is hilarious, therefore we didn't need or had, didn't have to rely on every little moment being hilarious. But I think that was it. It was a Tough negotiation. I don't think the work suffered for it in the end, but it did feel like we were, you know, really in the weeds, really in the weeds talking about humor when none of it. You know, I'm not trained to explain a joke to a smart person. You know, I'm dumb. I am, I'm a feeler. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm a non academic, so, so I think that was, that was tough. And you know, and our team, you know, we would get off the calls and then we would, you know, bang.

B (36:12)

Our heads against the wall.

C (36:14)

No, we ping each other back and all of us would have a drink in our hands.

B (36:19)

So let's talk about how this rolls out, because pre super bowl, it's reported that this campaign got 9 billion impressions before the spot ran. Tell us about how you designed that rollout and the various stages or steps of it.

C (36:39)

So the, the best thing we did on this pitch was to include Charlie and her PR and social team from the get go. And the way the ecosystem rolled out, I can't imagine it rolling out another way. I don't believe it could have been more perfect. But I also want to acknowledge in our industry that there is a, A, a sort of cold war between, as I call it, the horizontal screen. I, if I was holding my phone in front of you, I'd hold my phone horizontally. I'd call it the 16 by 9. The traditional creatives that think in stories that appear in their minds in 16 by 9 versus the social first thinker who lives in a vertical world. And I think this was a perfect inflection, but also because Charlie and I have a good relationship. We, I am, I am, you know, dare I say I come from a 16 by 9 mindset. She comes from a vertical phone mindset. So when we got into the influencer thing, I, I have to admit that I, you know, my impression was I don't love influencers. They, they take money away from paid media where we can control the story and, and no one can tell a story better than us, you know, ha, ha ha. Because we're, I, I, you know, we brought the first round of creative for influencers forward and it was like I was just completely wrong and the, the guys were completely wrong. We tried to write scripts that we wanted them to act out. And I think my first harsh education from Charlie is influencers aren't your puppets. An influencer has their own fame and their own shtick, and you've got to cast an influencer for their audience, but they will, to a degree, tell your story, but only through the lens. So if you have an influencer that slides across the hood of cars, he's not going to give a two minute monologue. He's going to do something sliding across the hood of a car, hopefully related to your project.

B (38:48)

Well, probably sliding on your cream.

C (38:52)

If that influencer existed. So I think we would come to heads because I was trying to use the influencers like actors. And then I think I got the very harsh education from Charlie and the team. Team that like, look, you know, we have clients that are. That are really savvy at social. Social first. And. And we are probably spending as much money on social as we are on traditional. And here is how you do it. And so I got very. I got kind of dragged along the journey, you know, where I had to sort of say, okay, okay, so this person, you know, does he. This person says, show me your show. So I started to learn that, okay, you. You look at influencers. Of course, you've got to find ones that have the size and scale and the kind of audience you want. And that work is done brilliantly by our social team. But then you've got to look at a dare. I'm probably. I don't. I'm probably being offensive to an influencer, but I'll call it their shtick. But you've got to sort of stitch together your story looking at their shtick. So we had Bobby Altoff, who does these really dry interviews, and we thought, great, because Michael is going to be evasive.

B (39:58)

Yeah, yeah, it'll be perfect.

D (40:00)

I think it's a fine product and I think it's very hydrating. There are three essential ceramides in it and a series of nourishing lipids. And I think it's a fine product. But that's as far as it goes. I mean, as far as what I'm willing to say.

E (40:14)

Why do you know all of that?

D (40:17)

I don't know. I don't know why. I just.

E (40:21)

But you didn't start it.

D (40:22)

I've come to know that.

E (40:23)

You've come to know that?

D (40:24)

Yeah, Just put it that way, I think. Let's talk about, you know, I want to talk about a wide range of other things, not just my. I mean, not just cerave your product.

E (40:33)

You were gonna say, oh, I stopped myself. You wanted to say your product.

D (40:38)

I say what I want to say.

E (40:40)

What are you doing right now? What is this? I'm very confused.

D (40:46)

I don't know. I mean, I need. I need a Lot more specifics for that question, I think.

E (40:51)

Did you start the product or not? You've said you have. So I want to know, is that your brand?

D (40:56)

You know, I, I appreciate your interview style, but I think I want to.

C (40:59)

Stay away from kind of personal stuff now. Okay, the. The influencer that says, show me your house. You know, okay, well, Mike. Okay, well, let's have a. Hit his trailer and let's have his trailer be a shrine to his crazy things. So. Okay, so let's use them and then let's. Let's do some traditional paparazzi stuff and let's get, you know, so we start. So. So, you know, I think we. We all, dare I say the, the sick. The. The 16 by 9 crowd, you know, got a. Got kind of really dragged into doing Influencer properly. And, and where it netted out was brilliant because we. We had our. Our traditional creative team, but working with the social NPR and Influencer team, them always making sure that we were maximizing and leaning into the Influencer appropriately and us then taking every opportunity within that space to be creative and to add texture and to kind of ratchet it up a little bit. But I will say, you know, it was uncomfortable. And Charlie and I would be on the phone sometimes at 9 or 10pm and I think sometimes, you know, I'll probably own it. You know, the majority of the time is because I wasn't getting it, you know, and I was trying to do it in the ways where I felt we had more creative control and, you know, and I think in the end, you know, it all. It netted out. But I think that would have been possible without a partnership like that where. Where also we were. Where the tension was okay, you know, so I.

B (42:29)

What I remember is the first thing I remember seeing about this campaign was this rumor about Michael Sarah walking around through pharmacists pharmacy stores, and he's signing. He's signing bottles. He's then seen sort of by paparazzi. There's clips of him walking down the street with bags of cerave.

C (42:53)

So great.

B (42:54)

And. And then I think the next thing then I, I came across the Bobby Althoff, which is a really good podcast, at the interview, which was phenomenal. And it all just started to stitch together with me because I was. And there was a part of me that was like, is he really behind this? I mean, is he really. It's like it made me. It kind of. It struck me and I didn't get the commercial aspect of it. As I said in the opening, it didn't Feel sales. Like it was, like it was really, really well done.

C (43:24)

Well, that's the, you know, this, this thing is. Is probably best, you know, understood in that. In that ecosystem, because the super bowl ad was. Was like a surprise payoff. And I think that, that felt very satisfying. And I think people. I think the response to the TV ad, I was surprised watching the super bowl that it was as loved, as quickly and as lauded as it was. But that is because it was completely teed up. And I think most people were one way or the other sort of already in the story. And this, The TV ad wasn't a, you know, a new idea. It was like. It was like an incredible release, you know, of, Of. Of. Of a strange tension that was building. And, And, And I, I think that again, you know, I don't think any of us, you know, you, you want to believe that, that people will be interested in the stuff, but, But I, I think most of us were imagining that some people in the social space will appreciate the prank and others, maybe largely others, will just experience the whole idea in 30 seconds. And I think. And I think we got very, very lucky. And I think that. And I think the payoff and perception of the. Of the traditional spot is much higher as a result of it.

D (44:52)

I'm Michael Cera, and I'm pleased to announce that this is my cream, Sarah V. Oh, you didn't know? Generosity. The truth has been hiding in plain sight. I am Sarah V. Can human skin truly be this moisturized?

C (45:15)

Yeah.

D (45:16)

Wow. Let my cream hydrate you. I like this. Three essential ceramides.

E (45:41)

All day.

D (45:43)

Hydration. I'm telling them our story. Sarah V developed with Michael Cera.

C (45:52)

V.

D (45:55)

We like. I just think it would be really nice if people think that I make this. So that's my thing.

B (46:07)

So does it. Does it go anywhere from here, or do you think that's a settled idea?

C (46:13)

Well, you know, I'm in my new adventure at BBL Worldwide, and, you know, I don't know, I still probably get a Christmas card from Willie, Michael's agent, but. But I couldn't tell. So whatever. Whatever happens from now on, you know, I mean, I could probably try to take Alex and Avi out and like, feed him a bunch of booze and find out, but I'd rather. I'd rather sit back and be surprised like a. Like a consumer.

B (46:40)

Was there something that didn't go the way that you had hoped it would go in terms of the execution?

C (46:48)

Not really. You know, because I. I think we lost lots of little battles in the edit. You know, we really spent a. We spent more time in client reviews on the edit probably than. Than any other because we really nitpicked everything. And, you know, it felt. It felt a little bit like we were losing. But the reality is when you. When you see what happens when it comes out into the world, if it has. If it exceeds every intention, then. Then you've really lost nothing. I mean, the. I worked on. I don't know if you remember that ad. Guinness Wheelchair basketball.

B (47:17)

Oh, God, yeah. You worked on that.

C (47:19)

Yeah, I did that.

B (47:21)

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

C (47:22)

Thank you. Well, I did it with my. My creative partners, Dan Lucey and Tom Kramer. And we. We had a very challenging edit on that, and we really got into a lot of, you know, I would say actual, you know, kind of real fights with the client. And at the end of the day, it felt like we lost every battle about the edit, about the voiceover, about the music, about, you know, it felt like we couldn't have had our heads hung lower. And then it comes out, and then, you know, the next morning I'm at the gym and, you know, five bros are talking about how they were crying when they saw it on the TV the night before. And then you go, oh, never mind. It's great. But, you know, you know, but. But again, that was another one where you. If you feel like you're losing a lot, you lose perspective on that. You lose all your little battles. But. But you, You, You. You know, you step back and you. If you win the war together, you know, and. And by the way, at the end, you know, that was. It was a rough experience with the Guinness client, but a great outcome. And it was, I would say, a challenge. It wasn't rough in the same way on. On Serevi, but it was very challenging, but it was highly, highly rewarding. And those same people that you felt like you were at these impasses with and you were staring down, there's been a lot of hugs exchanged. So. So, you know, the great work and great results, you know, kind of, you know, kind of whatever they're worth, they're worth the hardships and they're worth the challenges, and they're worth the tension. And any great, you know, AD or even a piece of art, you gotta know there's a ton of tension in there. Yeah.

B (48:59)

I mean, coming up on an idea is one thing, but birthing the idea is a whole different battle.

C (49:05)

That is. That is. That is probably the thing to understand for a modern creative and a modern creative leader is you would like to think coming up with the silver bullet idea is your job. Your job is to do that very quickly, and we're going to expect you can do that. And it's to put it together and present it in a way that makes it feel right, makes it feel safe, makes everyone feel comfortable, and then bring it to market in a way that's highly collaborative while at the same time maintaining the integrity. And that is the, the dance. I mean, you know, one, you know, the. Michael, Sarah doesn't have social media. So while we were developing the ecosystem, Michael wasn't entirely sold on even doing the social. And again, the art of, you know, there's a moment where, you know, we're. We're talking to the clients about all the influencers want to use. And then on the other end, I'm on the phone with Willie and Willie is like, Michael is not into social, you know, and we ultimately figured out, you know, we, we positioned it to Mike. I think one of the, one of the better moments of this whole thing was, again, if we, if we can't deliver the influencer part of it, then our clients are burned. And obviously we are burned. And we have every belief we'll get to it. But that Michael wouldn't have at that moment said, of course I'll do 10 videos he was in for the. The ad. And so we sat with Tim and Eric, who have done a lot of work with Michael in the past, and they're very comfortable. And we didn't talk to Michael about doing an influencer or social media campaign. We, again, this is also part. This is, this is what a modern creative has to do, is you're able to be on the phone with the clients and talk about the ecosystem, talk about the audiences you're going to gather with your influencer strategy and how you're going to deliver it. And then you hang up that call and then you talk to Michael. And instead of hitting him with that, which was scared the bejesus out of him, we lured him in by saying the goal is not just to do the film, but we're going to prank the Internet. And what. He loved that. And then how are we going to prank the Internet? Well, let's take this character that you're going to develop for the film and let's, like, why don't you. Let's get some performance pieces out of it. Like, be weird, be evasive. And so again, his hooks got into it the way a creative does, not with the logic of we're going to use influencers to reach this audience and this, that, that doesn't appeal to someone like Michael. This is the, the aisle is the very. I mean, if I'm, as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking a lot about the aisle, whether it's intellectual clients and visceral creatives or whether it's, it's, it's an indie artist like Michael and then modern marketing machine. Ultimately, this had to feel like a win for Michael and I know he loved the outcome, but I think he had to feel like he was pranking the Internet and l' Oreal had to feel like they were engaged in ultra modern social and influencer marketing. And I think having code switching in those conversations until you get to the middle, until you, until you get near the end is, are those kind of arts and that's the kind of thing. Having a great idea is one thing, but then it really is think, you know, being creative the whole way through and you're, you, you have not finished. When you come up with the creative idea, you have to be creative to tap dance your way all the way through the finish line. Like that's the, that's the, that's the job today. Which is probably way harder than in the Mad Men times, no doubt.

B (52:43)

I'm thrilled that you joined us today. It's Chris Beresford Hill Global Chief Creative Officer at bbdo. It's Sarah V campaign he did while at Ogilvy. You can check out the work on our website and we've obviously dropped in some of the audio that people have already heard throughout the interview. So thank you, Chris, for doing this today.

C (53:04)

Marcus, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to get to tell the story again from the feely perspective versus the intellectual one. And the one thing I would love to make sure is that there is a incredible village of people behind this, both from our list of characters in the beginning, but also great clients and also a great leadership team and infrastructure at Ogilvy that support this kind of thinking. So, you know, the other thing is it's a tough industry, but when you make it a team sport, you know, it works.

B (53:40)

It's the only way it works. I totally agree with you. Thanks, Chris. And we will see everyone on the next episode.