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- [00:00]
Fergus O'Carroll
Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O' Carroll in Chicago. We were in New York City a couple of weeks ago. We were at the American FE Awards gala, in Essence, and we got to interview a bunch of people. And one of the winners on the night was Josh Sellers. They won a gold and they won a silver and I was thrilled to be able to get a chance to talk to them today because at the heart of this case is sort of an understanding that marketers who are nervous and understandably nervous about engaging with social audiences need to be willing to be somewhat flexible with their brands. Now, this industry is crazy about shaping brands. There is many hundreds of millions of dollars, I'm sure spent each year on brands that want to define their personality, want to solidify their attributes, want to have control of their messaging and a of that is understandable. And then they're very cautious to engage with social audiences because they're concerned about losing certain pillars in how the brand gets represented. I've heard that a lot from a lot of marketers. So when I was talking to Dan and this team, I was super excited that they talked about that same initial nervousness, but then overcame it because they began to see the positive things that were happening. So we're going to be talking about Josh Sellers. The initiative was Josh o' Clock and you'll hear more about it. It was an initiative that happened organically in January of 2024. So it's a great lesson for other marketers. There does need to be some give and take around what many times are artificial manifestations of what you think your brand should be like. So there needs to be a sort of a give and take going forward with that. So I wanted to first talk with a friend of the show, Tracksuit, who are a supporter of this show to talk a little bit about the Josh brand and the impact on the brand that this initiative had. So this is Isaac Saraki from Tracksuit. So from a brand perspective, how good are things going for Josh? Isaac?
- [02:14]
Isaac Saraki
Yeah, so things are going really well, especially at that 21 to 24 year old level. Those folks who are just entering market, just able to buy their first bottle of wine. Awareness is going up from 26% to 29% during the campaign period. You're getting the same thing with consideration, a great early indicator of those sales, 19% at 25% at the same time. And what we're starting to see with Josh is their top of Funnel conversion is 79%, 79% of folks who are aware of them. Then go on to consider them compared to the competitor average of 67%. So really best in class at that demo, which as a whole under indexes across the category.
- [02:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
They talked about the fact that January and February, which is their typical slow time of the year, they saw a 22% increase in sales among first time buyers.
- [03:06]
Isaac Saraki
Josh o' Clock campaign is a really interesting sort of angle for a brand like Josh to be taking. Right. They've got a very rich emotive family story sort of behind the company, but kind of going into that sort of pop culture virality of Joshua Clark has really kind of driven that personality in that age group. And I think what you're starting to see, and we can see this in the Tracksuit data, is we're tracking a statement in the data that says effectively does it have good tasting wine? And for that age group, 16% of 21 to 24 year olds agree that Josh has great tasting wine, 7% for the rest of the category. Massively significant delta between how they're sort of approaching that demographic versus how the rest of the category is landing.
- [03:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
Isaac is partnerships lead at Tracksuit in New York City. Thanks for spending a couple of minutes with us here. So let's hear from Dan Kleiman. He's a chief brand officer for Josh Sellers. He's a part of the Deutsch Family wine and spirits group. Kelly Carson is EVP head of strategy for the Tom Brass Group. She's in New York. And Morgan Crego maclees, she is VP Group Creative Director for Tom Brass out of their Knoxville office. Enjoy. It was a dry January just like any other wine was in decline and Josh Sellers was no exception. But the problem wasn't dry January or seasonal slump. It was a category that's always failed to connect with the younger audience until an unassuming post launched us into the cultural zeitgeist. This post gave us a chance to do what no other wine brand had done before, connect with the younger generation. It's great to have Dan and Kelsey and Morgan here. Just so everybody knows for the conversation. Dan is cmo. Kelsey is in the strategy role at Morgan in creative. There's an interesting sort of parallel in this case because this case was sort of spurned by an event that happened. Wonderfully organic event that happened. But my interest is sort of stepping back a little bit before that, Dan, because I'm super curious about the whole category. I'm a wine drinker drinker. I don't know a lot about wine, but I've drank a lot of wine over the years. Right. And I can see and feel the evolution of wine just from my own experience. And I've actually worked on wine a while back at an agency for an Italian wine that was fun. It's the Antinori wines of Italy, which is kind of fun to work on, so I understand some of it, but that's a while back. So I'd love to know what is the dynamic in the wine category right now? Really popular? What's changing? It feels a lot more approachable than it used to be.
- [06:07]
Dan Kleiman
Well, I think, you know, if I was being honest, the wine industry, to use an industry pun, is in a bit of a hangover, you know, post the record highs of COVID And it is actually an industry that isn't growing right now. And there's a number of reason of reasons why. I think, you know, chief among that is the economy. Obviously, prices are going up, People are more concerned about their financial situations. And certainly when it comes comes to imported wines, you have this kind of always fluctuating impact of tariffs. So I think right now, the category is a bit challenged. I think within the category, what we're seeing that's interesting is consumers are gravitating more toward lighter, more approachable wine styles, most notably white wine. So white wine is gaining share at the expense of red wine at a pretty healthy clip. And we're seeing across all different price tiers that white wines are starting to accelerate in their growth at a much faster rate than reds, which are falling into decline. Which is an interesting, you know, kind of.
- [07:11]
Fergus O'Carroll
Why do you. Why do you think that is?
- [07:13]
Dan Kleiman
You know, I think it is just taste preferences. If you think about how people are being trained in beverages, so much of what we have, whether it's in beverage, alcohol or beyond, really is about refreshment, you know, kind of more, I would say, citrus fruit, you know, driven flavor profiles. And I think for, you know, it's no different in wine where you see, you know, wines like Sauvignon Blanc, which is probably the, you know, Pinot Grigio, which are actually the probably the two healthiest wine varietals right now. You know, they just meet that light, crisp, refreshing, easy drinking taste profile that I think consumers are, you know, more and more getting trained on, you know, as they, you know, make beverage choices whether they're in alcohol or not.
- [07:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
Is there any difference between. Between genders in terms of the varietals that are consumed, you know, not as.
- [08:03]
Dan Kleiman
Much as you think. And wine overall is just much, much more of a female category than say, spirits. Whereas, you know, you have spirits, which is kind of the category that's for everyone and has pretty even consumption between men and women. And then of course, you have beer. Skewing. Male wine really does skew a little bit more female. And as you get into some of the more popular white varietals, it can get, you know, as high as like a 67, 33 split female to male in terms of who is the buyer and shopper, you know, a white wine. So definitely there are some gender differences. And I think wine has just a much stronger place in females beverage alcohol repertoires than it does with men.
- [08:46]
Fergus O'Carroll
So one of the things that is sort of really interesting about wine, it used to be that it was dominant, maybe it is still dominated by the big houses. And now we've got Martha Stewart and Snoop Dogg. Right. So we have these blends and these. What is, what is reflective of it?
- [09:07]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah, I think, I think there's a couple dynamics there. I think the first is taste profiles, right. So I think taste profiles, particularly with younger drinkers, are gravitating more towards sweeter wines. And so if you think about the way consumers are entering the wine category when they first enter it is usually tending to be sweeter wines like Moscatos or red blends, where you're kind of removing that tannin and that experience and giving them a flavor profile more akin to what they're drinking in other categories. But I think, you know, specifically to the 19 crimes example is, you know, I think it, it's trying to reframe the image of wine a little bit because I think, you know, everyone tends to have very consistent first experiences with wine. It's either very cheap wine in college or, you know, trying to drink it at a very kind of formal dinner with your parents. And that kind of first experience, you know, really creates strong schema for this category. And then you. Wine is. It just, it does have a, you know, much, you know, more formal, I would say, you know, older. And that the consumer base of wine is primarily concentrated in the elder end of Gen X and the boomer generation. So when you look at the image of wine in the mind of consumers, what they see in pop culture, you know, thing, you know, it doesn't feel, especially if you're under 40, that it's quite right for me at this stage of my life. And when you bring in celebrities or you, you know, you, you try and build an image around that image has to kind of break that schema if it's going to Succeed. And I think that's why you're seeing that we actually have a glut of grapes. So obviously right now, because volumes have declined. So a lot of the more, what you call the big houses and the more single vineyard wines are actually quite readily available. I think obviously the image of wine and the price point of those wines and the taste experience of those wines may be a little intimidating to the, you know, everyday beverage alcohol consumers. So things like 19 crimes are attempting to kind of make wine more approachable for more people. So many wine brands focus so much of their marketing on product narratives. And I think doing so, they, you know, they, they really kind of fail to build, you know, a set of values that consumers can latch onto and, and fail to connect emotionally as much as brands do. Say in the spirits category, who are, you know, very out there in popular culture and doing a lot beyond just a bar, restaurant or a liquor store to build connection with consumers.
- [11:54]
Fergus O'Carroll
When I think about it, Kelsey, when you talk about from a branding perspective and identity, I guess the beauty of the celebrity is that there's already embedded memories. You already have an understanding of who they are because not a lot of wines are advertising. And so you're picking up cues based upon the simplest of things, which is the label. And so. So it's like a quick way to a branded impression is to use a celebrity because other than that, it's tough unless you've got a lot of. You take up a lot of space on shelf.
- [12:27]
Kelsey Carson
Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, the celebrity, like in every category, I think gives you shorthand. Dan's point. If it's a celebrity that you don't expect or someone that you don't think of as a traditional wine drinker, that goes even further to create a different perception of that brand that stands out from the category. I think, you know, and 19 Crimes is a good example. But one of the things that I think about often, especially when we talk about kind of younger drinkers, was like the huge rise of things like natural wine or even like quirky labels. Like the way that brands all try to stand out often does come down to, like, what the bottle looks like and sometimes it's, you know, brighter colors or like things that you look like you could draw in kindergarten. Like, it's all.
- [13:13]
Fergus O'Carroll
It's all.
- [13:13]
Kelsey Carson
There's such a defined norm, it's such a, a well understood category. Like anything that breaks from it is, is the first impression that you make.
- [13:28]
Dan Kleiman
But it's almost like, how can I.
- [13:29]
Kelsey Carson
Be different than the traditional wine?
- [13:31]
Fergus O'Carroll
It's always been sort of a bougie category. You know, it was always elitist. And I remember coming up like everybo, I think, who's touched wines. And number one, I can't read the labels in Europe or Italy, let alone.
- [13:44]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Pronounce it right, let alone pronounce it.
- [13:46]
Fergus O'Carroll
And I'm embarrassed to even ask for it. So the idea that we, at least in the US have simplified and stripped out some of that unnecessary language, we've gotten the design of labels a lot smarter than many of the European wines. But I'm curious, like Morgan is part of the advantage of being a little simpler on label. And certainly Josh's label is very stripped down. Is that being able to sort of project to, you know, to a new generation of drinkers of, you know, whatever they're called. Legal drinkers.
- [14:23]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Yeah, I think that's part of it. And Dan can probably speak to the history more. But, you know, the name is not only recognizable, Josh also pronounceable. So I think that makes it easy for people to ask for in store to bring to a party. It's also, you know, that label does stand out. It's. It's really sophisticatedly simple and the calligraphy is actually our founder's mother's handwriting. So you have this cool story when you buy it. You can pronounce it. It's really recognizable. And it does stand out in its simplicity. And you know, I remember when as an agency, Tombra started working on Josh, I had friends being so able to go through their camera roll and find a picture of it at Christmas dinner or on a beach trip because that label just pops and it's a sea of, you know, really cluttered dinner tables or wine cellars. So pretty neat.
- [15:15]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah, just. Just to pick that up. I think label on Josh, not just for young or old, for everyone, is probably one of our single greatest assets because we always explain it this way, which is it gives everything that consumer, consumers are attracted to in the wine category in the simple parchment and the scripted label. That's the refinement people are looking for and wine. But it also addresses the number one barrier which you, you mentioned that people have to wine, which is it's stuffy, it's complex, you know, complicated, and it's hard. And the simple use of a first name in Josh versus a dynastic or family name, you know, and the name Josh, like we always joke, it's very hard in your own life. You don't know very many Josh's that aren't fun loving guys. You Know, there aren't, you know, there's not like Josh's, who are mean people. Everyone knows a Josh, and that Josh tends to be, you know, a very good guy. And that gives the brand, you know, I think an everyman approachability. So it's kind of playing both ends of the spectrum about what brings people to wine and what, you know, is a barrier to wine at the same time. And we've had semioticians look at it, we've talked to consumers about it, and that, you know, when you boil down the meaning behind why they like the label and the brand so much, that's what it is. It's got a very, you know, it gives them what they want in wine, but it's also incredibly approachable. So it's a huge asset.
- [16:50]
Fergus O'Carroll
So I remember. I remember, Dan, that it used to be that you never brought a bottle of wine that was screw top to a party. Yeah. It was always about the cork. Now I'm frustrated as shit about having to find a screwdriver to open a bot of wine. I'm like, why isn't everything screw top like. Like so many wines are today? It's sort of. It's, again, it's sort of stripping down some of that elitist.
- [17:18]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah.
- [17:19]
Fergus O'Carroll
What you would expect out of that category. And it's. I'm sure there's a number of years when that was a. That was sort of frowned upon, but now it's sort of becoming normalized.
- [17:28]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, one, you know, I think probably it was frowned upon, you know, by the. The supplier side, the production side, out of a fear less about the perception than purely the impact on liquid quality that a screw cap would bring. But as you look at the way people are consuming wine now, they want it in smaller sizes. They want the flexibility to not finish an entire bottle on the same serving. So the screw cap is just a wonderful way to make the brand more portable. It helps wines get into more occas. So, you know, and I think, you know, you know, and it can fit in your refrigerator once you open it. So it's got a number of advantages. And I think, you know, it's funny, when we talk to consumers about it, there is still. The tension that you have raised is still there because you still have a very strong constituency of people who are like, if it's not a cork wine, it's not quality, you know, like. So, you know, we're battling through that, but particularly as the category moves to white and we're looking for things that we want to drink cold. We want to kind of grab them. The core wine occasion is kind of relaxing. We call it relaxing. It's like me time relax at home or TV time for two. That is a very, it's a very impulse decision. You want what you want cold and.
- [18:55]
Fergus O'Carroll
I'm going to drink it this week. I'm not going to put it on the shelf for two years where it's going to spoil. Right?
- [19:00]
Dan Kleiman
Exactly.
- [19:01]
Fergus O'Carroll
It's a lethalist for. We'll be right back. Want always on brand metrics that deliver value to stakeholders. This episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question. Is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise brand tracking without the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting, using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Check it out@gotracksuit.com that's gotracsuit. Now back to the show. How does a wine get marketed today? Because you don't see advertising campaigns for wines. Is it, is it just that you get strong distribution, you get on shelf, you maybe you get product placement somewhere? Is that sort of the emphasis or is there a role for, you know, for let's call it paid advertising or marketing?
- [20:22]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah, I'd say it's, you know, you're right that most don't. I think that's been the major distinguishing factor in a lot of our success is that we did say two things. We do want to actually build salience and emotional meaning with consumers and we are going to do it with advertising. And advertising is very hard to track. But we're one of the top two, I would say top or number two spender in the category. But most brands, because wine is, it doesn't benefit from the profitability of spirits or the scale of beer. The money available to really spend a lot of time, focus and investment on consumer facing activity is just not a luxury most wine brands have until they get to scale. And you know, fortunately this brand has had great success and there's been a belief in this notion of driving salience and emotional meaning through, you know, not just advertising but of, you know, a full kind of multidiscipline consumer facing approach that has been a big differentiator. But I think you've got it right. I mean, the, the primary wine model is, you know, know, get trial through bars and restaurants, get it, you know, onto the shelf and onto display and that those are, you know, just the effort to get financial and resource effort to get those drivers in place for most wine companies is what they can do. And I think it's the brands that differentiate, the brands that differentiate and scale are the ones who are starting to build, you know, really putting efforts to build, you know, kind of a value system beyond product. They are doing things with consistency, you know, with the consumer and in culture. And that's the formula that I think every wine brand wants to emulate is just not within their gift financially to do so right now.
- [22:13]
Fergus O'Carroll
So, Morgan, let's talk about what happened in January of 2024 because it's, there's a classic problem in wine as we've touched on so far here, which is there's a whole new generation of drinking age young people that are coming into the category. They may not be exposed to wine.
- [22:32]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Right.
- [22:33]
Fergus O'Carroll
And it's sort of this thing that isn't really hasn't been approachable. But what happens for you guys in January 2024 and why did it happen, do you think?
- [22:42]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Yeah, I, I mean, why it happened? I think I've, I've gotten to work in social media creative a long time and you know, the Internet's a wacky place. I think especially at the beginning of the year, you know, holidays are wrapped up, people are back at work. They're just looking for something to smile at or bond over. And a tweet went out making a joke about Josh and we flagged it to Dan and team. We were not on Twitter at the time, but, you know, we're listening on all, all platforms trying to figure out how people are talking about Josh and you know, what we can learn from it. So we flagged this tweet and you know, we wanted to respond, but we didn't have the password. We couldn't get into our Twitter.
- [23:24]
Fergus O'Carroll
And what was the, what was the tweet?
- [23:27]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Let me, I've got it. So the tweet said, I'm not going to keep telling y' all to grow up and leave that Stella and barefoot alone. The photo of Josh.
- [23:36]
Fergus O'Carroll
So Stella and barefoot are other wines?
- [23:38]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah, Stella rose, slightly lower price point, sweeter. You know, again, as we talked about before, I mean, Stellarosa is, you know, know, they have a pineapple chili flavor. You can imagine and this guy was just like, you know, he was on his own journey. And that's what we see, right? We see at that $1115 price point when, like, this is their entry point into real, like, we'll call it classic varietal wine. And so it was perfect because it's exactly this. This. I think his name was Optimus Grind. Was Grind. We owe him a big debt of thanks. You know, he was on his own wine, you know, kind of mastery Jo Journey. And I love that he, you know, kind of had the pride to say, yeah, I'm sure he, you know, kind of. He was maybe not the. Not the, you know, kind of crowd pleaser with his Josh, you know, with.
- [24:34]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
His friends drinking comments back like, dude, there's, you know, try more. Like, what are you talking about? And then some people just said like, I love Josh. And then some people were, you know, part of the journey, like, wait, there's a wine called Josh? What the hell? So we. We were able to work with Dan and team respond to the tweet and then also just talk about, you know, this is a really cool cultural moment and it's authentic. We're not, you know, trying to make ourselves something we're not. How can we maybe take advantage of this situation and tweak our strategy and tweak what we're promoting on these same channels, you know, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and so on, to maybe reach these people that we haven't been as diligently in the past.
- [25:15]
Fergus O'Carroll
So. But it's interesting this one, this guy didn't necessarily have a large following. This thing caught fire.
- [25:22]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's. I mean, and obviously Twitter now X. And it's evolved so much in the past, you know, six months, let alone two years ago. But it did. And sometimes that happens. And we. I was just so grateful that the team was. Was down to try something.
- [25:37]
Kelsey Carson
I mean, I think you look at that tweet and there's so much in it. It's funny because everyone wants to know, like, what's the tweet? And when you read it, you're like, that's it. Like, how was. I think one piece of language in there is telling the fact that he says, grow up. Which we talked about how conventionally the wine category is quite formal that Josh kind of straddles that like you were accessible. But we're also what you think wine should be. I think it kind of checked a few of those boxes for people. It's like, oh, maybe this is what I should Be drinking. I think the other piece of it is that he calls out other brands and starts an argument. Right. We all know does well on social media. So I think the fact he, like, throws a bomb, right, and it gives people something to disagree with, which I think then if you're a Josh drinker, you're like, hey, I'm with him. Like, I drink this wine and I love it. And if you're not, then, like, you hear his opinion. But it helps insert the brand into a conversation that's organic because people want to debate it.
- [26:32]
Fergus O'Carroll
And so how did the brand begin to. Or did you begin to fuel it, or how did you engage in it?
- [26:38]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Yeah, I mean, the first thing we did was we acknowledged that as a brand, specifically on social media, we had been a bit more earnest. We'd leaned into our, you know, our authentic story of Joseph Carr and making the wine in the garage and all of that. And we said, if we just suddenly start jumping in and tell people to grow up, it's not going to feel right. And so how do we do it in a way that feels, you know, not only authentic to Josh as a brand, but also to a social media user. We always joke we're competing with, like, baby pics and puppies, like, how do you. How do you stand out? And so we talked with Dan and team about what if we acted as if we hired some new, you know, interns and let them run the page for a week, a month, see how it goes. Acknowledge. We didn't know the Twitter password. Acknowledge. We kind of scrambled to get on this and then treat the page as, you know, a fan might, and as a brand that is seeing what their consumers are saying and hearing them and then interacting with it. Dan, I don't know what you'd want to add to that.
- [27:42]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah, no, I think you nailed it. Because I think when you're sitting there on the client side, you're like, we had spent hours with Tom Brass, you know, on our brand character, you know, and we were very tight and, you know, kind of rigid with it. And, you know, it's like, you know, this is a brand that was at its heart. It was, you know, we were about approachability, graciousness, being plain spoken and loving, you know, like. Which is not necessarily the brand character you would deploy or we did choose to ultimately deploy. And I think it came down to a decision, and it was just a simple thought which is, you know, we as people are not one dimensional and brands shouldn't be either. And so we, you know, we, you Know, we said to Tom versus guys, run. Because there is something here, you know, and you know, this could be an opportunity to show a new side of our character and if we do it right, you know, we're going to get kudos for it. And we did. So I think that was the, you know, I remember in those first, you know, the first few days were, you know, all the hand wringing, being able to get our Twitter password, all of our marketing IT people were on vacation on the same weekend. And I think Twitter has a 72 hour ban once you get locked out. So, you know, like one, we were fretting about that and two, we were kind of going back and forth with our partners at to surround kind of. Okay, well this seems so out of character for us, you know, to participate and should we. And I think it was. But look, we can't be this one dimensional. And I think that is something that I've taken to heart since is like no one on this podcast is a one dimensional human. You can't define them in one way. So why should we be as Josh.
- [29:38]
Fergus O'Carroll
Is there stages to how this sort of rolls out? Morgan, was there an inflection point and are you able to sort of point to that or even in retrospect go. This is when it truly caught fire.
- [29:52]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
I mean, a few things come to mind. I think like Dan said, we were all kind of three musketeers all in this together, trying to figure it out. And we were moving really quickly. That was probably a week we worked with strategy to develop, you know, what's a temporary, what we would call like a playbook. What's our temporary rules of engagement? How do we talk, how do we look? What are we going to do the next week or two? And ultimately we developed a strategy that was, was just as diligent as the character Dan mentioned prior, but with this new kind of lens. We were collaborating with different meme pages at this time, which was a really cool way to test out content and see what was sticking. We were obviously, you know, we started developing our own videos with iPhone. We hadn't really done that with Josh. It felt a little maybe too scrappy or too unserious for the tone prior. But we said, let's try it, we'll make some videos. And those really took off. And, and ultimately I think the moment that I was like, oh man, we've really stuck the landing was we did a 4th of July post with Red, white and blue Josh and made like a very silly meme and people were like, oh my God, I love this. And it. And you realize not only was this wasn't a flash in the pan, we were able to sustain it and really speak to people.
- [31:05]
Fergus O'Carroll
So that's six months later, right?
- [31:07]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
That's.
- [31:07]
Dan Kleiman
Yeah, I think. I think just to pick up on your point, I think when we, you know, when we realized it was something, it's when we didn't end, you know, within a week, the best decision we made was to say, you know, this. You know, we're going to stick with this. And certainly how people were responding 100%, you know, kind of gave us the confidence that we could keep going. But that. That commitment to, you know, stick with it and. And, you know, you know, yes, it was still going July, I would say it was still really running hot, you know, leading into to Valentine's Day. And, you know, tell you about what we did with Wendy's, which is another, you know, kind of very bold move for a brand in a premium, you know, premium category associated with refinement. But I think that the tipping point was to see it going into late January. You know, obviously, you know, Chipotle was writing about it, Rolling Stone wrote about it. Other agencies had funny memes about it, you know, and I think, think, you know, once. Once we saw that, it really just gave the team the. The courage and the confidence to really unleash their creativity.
- [32:20]
Kelsey Carson
I think the other thing that I have always found really interesting is, like, it's easy to look at these dynamics and say, older people who drink wine and aren't on the Internet, think about Josh one way. Younger people who don't drink wine are on the Internet and they have this different relationship with the brand. And I think what has been really surprising and humbling when you really dig into, like, who's the audience, who's talking about the brand? Some of that's true. They are younger and, like, more casual and, you know, mean sophisticated and speak Internet. But some of them are also much older than you would expect and drink it with their children or, you know, talk about Josh like they're their boyfriend, even though they have a family. Like, you just see kind of these hard definitions that we give to audiences fade away a little bit when you have to look at how real people use it on the Internet. And I think that has been a really helpful exercise in this brand because it forces you to challenge some of your assumptions. Like, maybe. Maybe there is more stretch here than we even thought there was.
- [33:28]
Fergus O'Carroll
So when you look at the business impacts of this, when I was looking through all of The Social. I don't know why I came across across or felt this. I got the sense that a lot of those people were probably first time buyers of Josh. It's like people went out and bought it in order that they could put it on camera. Did you get that sense?
- [33:52]
Dan Kleiman
Yes, we got more than a sense. I think what we tend to see is after kind of the peak of the December holiday window, buyers tend to fall off in Jan. Feb. And we saw a 22% increase in our buyers with a lot of that driven by one time first time buyers. And I think that was. And we saw it actually we saw increased consumption versus our core audience of two time plus buyers. But it was that first time buyers and then the significant uptick. I think we got a 5 point share increase and the buyers under 35 of the brand in Jan. Feb. From when this happened. So we had real kind of tangible movements in, in a period of time like Jan. Feb. March is like, you know, it's, it's like the doldrums of beverage alcohol time, particularly if it's a white varietal, you know. So, you know, it was great to see that. When we talk about where we had all worried about what our existing drinkers would thought, think about all this, it was a real moment of pride for them because I think it was like here's something that they loved, you know, they, that now is getting, you know, kind of a really big cultural spotlight and I think was the added benefit of, in addition to bringing in all these new people and it kind of gave, you know, it swelled up the chests of our, you know, existing drinkers and they joined the fray which was so great.
- [35:25]
Fergus O'Carroll
I'm always curious when there's these big hits in social whether, you know, it becomes like a one hit wonder from somebody who sings a great song and then we never hear from them again. It's hard to reflect, repeat it. Have you been able to sort of create from a brand perspective some social to sort of repeat some of this or come at it a different way or is it a, is it a. Is it something that it really has to be organically created and you have to wait for it to happen and then jump on?
- [35:57]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
I, I would say it's a, it's a beautiful mix. There's things we do that we know will at least perform well, if not exceptional. So I think about, you know, you mentioned people taking pictures of Josh all of a sudden early on. Some of the best content we had was just posting those things in what we would call Like a UGC dump. Every user generated content. How are people tagging us? How are they drinking us re share those photos. And to me that's always as a consumer, as a fan, it's so exciting. You're like, oh my God, the brand knows I exist. And how cool that I'm getting recognition on their page for loving this brand. And so, so, you know, we're able to. That creates a cycle where people start tagging Josh Moore. So that's something we love to do. I think we've learned a lot about what sort of content does well that we create. I think sometimes that is more meme like content with a really intense consumer truth. We'll work with Kelsey and team on how are we seeing people talk about Josh right now? What are occasions we know coming up where they're drinking wine and how can we participate? You know, another finding we've had is when we'll make cocktails which we used to not do. You would never mix Josh, you know, two, three years ago. But now we're interested in how are people consuming wine. Sometimes they're mixing it and things and so God, what are they?
- [37:08]
Fergus O'Carroll
What are they? What are they mixing with wine? Please, I'm going to die.
- [37:14]
Dan Kleiman
There's gator wine to all the New York sour, which is a whiskey sour with brunette. It runs the from which is high class to gator wine. You know, you know I think it's. But just to add a point like it wasn't just yeah. What we did, you know, socially. I think we sat down with the Thomas crew and it impacted two other things, I would say that were bit huge for us. That came right after which is one, we actually changed our paid approach, you know, creating where we, you know, we, we were stewards of our craft, often obsessing over wardrobe and you know, the scene we were creating. And you know, we started to switch our product comms to much more, you know, I would say, you know, punchy, you know, fun communications that, you know, you know, we really reevaluated how we could get people to try, you know, different types of Josh using the lens of how we communicated social into our paid creative and media strategy. And then, you know, we were, we were, you know, the memes came at a time just before we launched what has been our most successful new product ever, Josh C Swept, which was a product designed to go out after younger drinkers. And as we approached how we were going to do that launch with Tomris, we, we definitely borrowed the principles of the meme. The memes to develop the campaign and our communications approach for that brand. And, you know, that brand is all about, you know, the tagline is a crisp new white that's refreshing. The rules of wine. And, you know, one of my favorite ads was, you know, rule number one, white wine pairs best with chicken. And it was people in the ocean chicken fighting. You know, it was, you know, it was. Or, you know, like. And I think we really learned, especially as we're going after this younger audience, you know, because they are the future of the brand. They have to get into the category. And wine does. It has a social experience barrier. We can't speak to this consumer with the, you know, from the brand in the same way. So it really was an influential point for a lot of, you know, we call what we have a twin engine strategy where we focus on our core and then the next generation. As, as we move to the next generation, the way we approached the memes has become a blueprint for how we're getting younger drinkers into the brand. Because it was, you know, the response we saw was so profound.
- [39:52]
Kelsey Carson
Yeah, I mean, you know, Dan mentioned this fact that, like, we as people are dynamic and we need to be dynamic in different contexts. But I also think when you look at the, with the, that story of Joseph Carr, there's one way to look at that which is like, you know, he's an older person who had a successful life, and then his son creates this tribute for him. And, and, you know, this is something from the past. This is something for people who lived in a different generation. But the other way to look at that is like, this has always been a brand that's accessible. This has always been a brand that breaks the rules of wine. Like all the things Dan laid out that we're not, you know, we're not some European wine. We are something with a name you can pronounce. And so how do you translate accessibility and approachability for a younger generation if that isn't the core of the brand? It looks different when you're speaking to one audience and in one channel than it might mean another. But, but if that's the thing, you can hold on to it. It still gives you a center to the brand. And I think what the social moment did is it helped. Helps. It helps Josh to look at itself and say, like, if this is really what we care about, how do we do it in a way that resonates with the younger generation?
- [41:04]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
And I think everything's built on some sort of insight. You know, I, I get the pleasure of seeing Things that no one else gets to see on the Internet because it doesn't make the cut. But the team can write incredible jokes, design hysterical layouts, and have all, all these funny things featuring Josh. But if it's not a real wine drinking occasion or a real educational moment for our fans or a real consumer belief, it doesn't make it. And I think the paid media is the same way. It's all based in really diligent strategy and learnings and I think that's a huge help.
- [41:38]
Fergus O'Carroll
When you look at your budget for this year and looking back at the success of last year, are you now like, okay, I need to be, be allocating a larger percentage of my budget to social?
- [41:51]
Dan Kleiman
Yes, 100%. And I think it's part of this twin engine strategy. The benefit of how media has evolved and how the avenues we have to connect with consumers have evolved. We can be incredibly tailored. So I know when I'm working with Morgan and we're talking in social, we can be very targeted to who we're talking to and talk to them in a very personalized and relevant way without worrying too much. We're not worried. We don't sit around fretting what is, you know, you know, what is our, you know, boomer target? Think about, about this because one, we have the benefit of being able to do both, which is key, that engine strategy. And, you know, kind of, we are, we're, we're just, we're always kind of, you know, searching for those ways to, you know, reach people in the right context and speak to them in a way that resonates with their, you know, kind of world, worldview. And I think media allows us to do that so much more now than when we were, you know, in an age of, it's like almost the, the benefit of all the fragmentation is that you can be enormously targeted.
- [42:58]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yep, it is. Dan Kleinman, he is Chief Brand Officer for Deutsch Family Wine and Spirits. He's in Stanford, Connecticut. It's Kelsey Carson, EVP head of Strategy at Tom Brass, and she's in Tribeca, N.Y. and Morgan Kriegel McLees is VP, group creative director Tom Brass in Knoxville. Obviously, Tom Brass is kicking ass in the last few years and it was, it's great to see that happen for a, for a small agency that started off in Knoxville and now it's probably got as many offices as many other great agencies out there, so. And doing great work across great brands. Thank you all for being a part of this conversation. It's been great to. To talk with you.
- [43:41]
Morgan Kriegel McLees
Thank you.
- [43:42]
Dan Kleiman
Blast.
- [43:43]
Kelsey Carson
Cheers.
- [43:44]
Dan Kleiman
Cheers.
- [43:44]
Fergus O'Carroll
And we will see everyone on the next episode.