Life after Agency Life Ep#3 (Tom Morton, Britton Taylor, Lisa Prince)

Summary

On Strategy Showcase: Life after Agency Life Ep#3

Release Date: April 27, 2025
Host: Fergus O’Carroll
Guests: Tom Morton, Britton Taylor, Lisa Prince
Series: Planning on the Outside

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Introduction and Context

In the third episode of the “Planning on the Outside” series, hosted by Fergus O’Carroll, the focus shifts to exploring the journeys of strategists who have transitioned from traditional agency environments to independent ventures. Joined by former agency professionals Tom Morton, Britton Taylor, and Lisa Prince, Fergus delves into their motivations, challenges, and insights gained from life beyond the agency walls.

Guest Introductions and Backgrounds

Tom Morton
Formerly the Chief Strategy Officer at RGA, Tom is the founder of Narratory Capital, a strategy consultancy aimed at helping creative businesses and brand owners build sustainable futures. He shared his transition journey, highlighting his shift from agency executive to entrepreneur.

Britton Taylor
Britton’s path began unexpectedly after an English major and a stint teaching seventh grade. Inspired by John Steele’s book on strategy, he transitioned into advertising, spending 16 years at Wieden+Kennedy in San Francisco before embarking on a freelance career. Britton now runs Tritton Baylor Strategic Industries from Portland, Oregon.

Lisa Prince
With 25 years of experience as a creative strategist, Lisa moved from the UK’s Euro RSCG and Wieden+Kennedy London to the US, where she served five years at Wieden+Kennedy Portland. Feeling constrained by the agency environment and seeking better work-life balance, Lisa founded School of Ideas, a company dedicated to teaching innovative thinking and creative problem-solving.

Transition from Agency Life to Freelancing

Motivations for Change

The guests shared varied motivations for leaving agency life:

• Lisa Prince emphasized the need for better work-life balance, especially with young children, and a desire to tackle bigger, more meaningful problems beyond the constraints of agency specialization. She noted, “I wanted to think a bit bigger… solve big tricky problems for clients” (08:33).

• Britton Taylor spoke about reaching a "glass ceiling" in agency roles and yearning for more autonomy and creative freedom. He mentioned, “It was not inspiring to me… I have much more freedom working for myself” (25:18).

• Tom Morton highlighted a similar desire for autonomy and the opportunity to focus deeply on strategic challenges without the administrative burdens of agency life. He reflected, “the ability to create collectives and tap into and hire like-minded experts is going to be really important” (43:46).

Challenges Faced

Transitioning from agency to freelance wasn’t without its hurdles. The speakers discussed learning the business side of strategy, such as billing, client acquisition, and defining their unique value propositions.

Benefits and Challenges of Freelancing

Advantages of Independence

• Autonomy and Flexibility: Freed from rigid agency structures, the guests could tailor their work schedules and choose projects aligned with their passions. Lisa shared, “I built a lifestyle business… take two months off every summer” (26:56).

• Creative Freedom: Freed from agency constraints, they could engage in more meaningful and innovative projects. Britton noted, “I can pick and choose the people that I want to work with… solve those sorts of big strategic challenges” (15:07).

• Personal Growth: Engaging in activities beyond advertising, such as volunteering and continuous learning, enriched their professional and personal lives. Britton added, “Being a freelancer has afforded me the privilege to honestly devote a lot of my time to doing things that aren't advertising or marketing related” (30:15).

Challenges Encountered

• Business Acumen: Transitioning strategists needed to develop strong business skills to manage billing, client relationships, and project scoping. Lisa emphasized the importance of this, stating, “How much you should charge, where your value is, how you scope a project… really important” (52:35).

• Client Acquisition: Building a steady stream of clients required proactive networking and continuous relationship cultivation. Britton mentioned, “Opportunities keep bubbling up… But you're right, the grind is real” (35:51).

• Managing Peaks and Valleys: Freelancers often face fluctuating workloads, necessitating strategies to maintain a balanced workflow. Fergus shared his own experience: “You come off of projects almost terrified where the next one is going to come from” (33:08).

Building and Maintaining a Freelance Business

Strategies for Success

• Networking and Partnerships: Forming alliances with other professionals was crucial for managing larger projects and diversifying expertise. Britton highlighted his partnership with Katie Drakey, enabling them to tackle global strategy projects together.

• Value Proposition: Clearly defining what sets their services apart helped in attracting the right clients. Tom explained, “You need a very clear understanding of your own value proposition and what you're the right person for” (49:51).

• Continuous Learning and Adaptation: Engaging with different learning platforms and communities, such as Slack groups and freelance guilds, provided ongoing support and opportunities.

Maintaining Work-Life Balance

Fostering a healthy balance was a significant focus, with strategies like taking regular breaks and aligning work with personal strengths and preferences. Lisa shared her system of deep work in the mornings and administrative tasks in the afternoons, complemented by scheduled summers off to recharge.

Advice for Aspiring Freelancers

Essential Preparations

• Develop Business Skills: Gain proficiency in billing, client management, and defining clear project scopes. Lisa advised, “Spend as much time as you can in this year learning that bit of the business” (52:35).

• Build a Strong Network: Cultivate relationships within the industry to generate referrals and collaborative opportunities. Britton recommended being part of multiple Slack groups and creating a supportive community.

• Define Your Niche: Specializing in a particular area of strategy can make you more attractive to clients seeking specific expertise. Tom suggested choosing a “swim lane” that aligns with your strengths and market needs (21:39).

Overcoming Fear and Uncertainty

The guests acknowledged the inherent anxiety in leaving a stable agency position but emphasized the long-term benefits of independence. Tom encapsulated this sentiment: “Anxiety is the price you pay for freedom… it's worth it” (54:43).

Conclusion

The episode provided a comprehensive exploration of the transition from agency life to freelancing. Tom Morton, Britton Taylor, and Lisa Prince shared their personal journeys, highlighting both the rewards and challenges of independent strategy work. Their collective wisdom offers valuable insights for strategists contemplating a similar move, emphasizing the importance of business acumen, networking, and maintaining a healthy work-life balance. As Fergus O’Carroll aptly concluded, the freedom and fulfillment derived from freelancing make the inherent challenges worthwhile.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tom Morton (43:46): “I think that ability to create collectives and tap into and hire like-minded experts is going to be really important. So yeah, I think that for a while the future is going to belong to these like amorphous, like-minded bands of people.”

• Lisa Prince (26:56): “We take two months off every summer. And I will tell you this, what I've realized is your USP becomes the fact that you're rested…”

• Britton Taylor (15:07): “I feel like I'm feeling much more freedom working for myself. I can pick and choose the people that I want to work with…”

• Fergus O’Carroll (55:54): “Lisa Prince, founder of School of Ideas and Mrs. Prince, LLC before her consulting work. Britton Taylor is freelance strategist in Portland, Oregon. And Tom Morton, Narratory Capital is his firm in New York City.”

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This episode serves as an insightful guide for strategists considering leaving the agency scene, offering practical advice and inspiring stories of successful transitions.

Transcript

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O'Carroll in Chicago. I just got back from Sydney and Auckland last night and needless to say, I'm a little discombobulated. It was a brilliant trip. Thank you to everybody down there. Really had a wonderful 10 or 11 days down in that part of the world. However, while I loved it, I am actually happy to be back in Chicago and to get back into the early spring and summer of this time of the world, or just this time of the year in this part of the world. As you know, it's the weirdest thing because down in Sydney and in New Zealand right now they're heading into winter, so it's fall down there while it's spring here. So needless to say, not only do you have to deal with a time change, but you have to deal with seasonal changes, which isn't always easy when you actually have to do it. Anyway, thrilled. And there's more coming on that because we're gonna be editing the shows and we should releasing both of them in the same week. The Sydney show and the Auckland show will be released in the same week and I think it's about two weeks from now. Anyway, our next event, we're going to be at the Effie's Gala in New York City, May 22. We're thrilled, of course, to be the official podcast partner of the EFFIES worldwide. And we're going to be on location on the night of the FE Awards gala, interviewing people who have won awards for effectiveness and to then later begin to do deep dives into those winners in episodes that will follow. So super excited about that. Actually. Our first show will. Our first show of 2025 as part of our new FE partnership is going to be with Skittles and that's going to be actually airing next week. I had an amazing conversation just a few days ago when I was in Auckland with Rankin Carol, who is the brand officer over at Mars Wrigley, and we'd had him on before we did the Snickers episode. He's going to. He's coming back now for this wonderful episode alongside DDB's Chief Creative Officer to talk about Skittle. So that's coming up next week. Here's a clip from today's episode.

[Tom Morton]

I look back at the projects I've done in the past year. So it's been like a designer, a brilliant copywriter, an organizational strategist who thinks more in terms of like Gantt chart and org charts than in terms of, you know, TED talks. And town halls. And so I think there is real value in creating these combinations, these pairs doing also what everyone's been talking about of just having like a pool of experts you can call on. I think right now the industry, the old, the old industry is kind of deconstructing. The new industry is building up. And so I'm not sure if we should be thinking about like how we solidify, how we get offices, how we get large numbers of permanent hires. But I think that ability to create collectives and tap into and hire like minded experts is going to be really important. So yeah, I think for a while the future is going to belong to these like amorphous, like minded bands of people.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So that is Tom Morton, formerly of rga. He's joined by Lisa Prince, formerly of Wieden and Kennedy and Britton Taylor, who is also formerly of Wyden and Kennedy. This is the series Planning on the Outside where planners talk about life after agency Life. If you have some people you'd like to recommend for this series who have sort of taken a new journey after leaving Agency World, we would love to hear from you. So this is episode three in this series. We're going to continue doing it because it's become really popular and it's really interesting. So if you have somebody you think I should have on the show, you can nominate them by just sending an email to hellonstrategyshowcase.com that's hellonstrategyshowcase dot com and we'll see if we can find a slot for that person going forward. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this. This is a terrific conversation. Tom Morton, Briton Taylor and Lisa Princess. Enjoy. So it's great to have this crew together for our series Planning on the Outside Life after Agency Life. We do a lot of episodes with great talent in agencies and then sometimes that great talent leaves to do other things. And it just seems to be a cycle that happens. And we've touched on this in some of our live shows with different people, Johnny Bauer and others that have come to our live shows in different cities. And we've seen it again recently with Martin Beverly leaving Adam and Eve ddb. There is something about this and something that's going on with a lot of the top talent in our field. And so we're here to talk about some of the things that people are doing after planning Inside Agency Life because I do feel there are an awful lot of people who are inside agencies. They're seeing dramatic change, seeing it happening around them. So I'm thrilled to welcome Lisa Prince to the show for the first time. Lisa, thanks for joining us.

[Lisa Prince]

So excited to be here and it's Britain.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Taylor is back again. Britton, good to see. Oh, good to see. Well, good to see and hear you.

[Britton Taylor]

Thank you, Fergus. I've actually heard that just like with Saturday Night Live, if you do five episodes, I've heard you get some sort of a smoking jacket.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

That's right, you've heard about that. A red and black smoking jacket.

[Britton Taylor]

So I'm excited to be 2/5 of the way there.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

That's not a bad thought, actually. I could do a little jacket, put our logo on the back or something. Tom Morton is back. Great to see you and hear you again, Tom.

[Tom Morton]

Thank you for having me.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Why don't we start out with Lisa, Take a minute, if you would, to one introduce yourselves. We have not met before and tell us about where you've come from and where you are today.

[Lisa Prince]

Okay, I'd love to. I'm Lisa Prince. I have been a creative strategist by trade for 25 years now. I came up in the UK. I'm sure we'll hear this from Tom too. I had phenomenal training. I was apprenticed almost for 5 years before I could work on anything big by myself. I don't think they would have officially called it an apprenticeship, but it really was. And I, I bring that up because when I moved to America, 10 years into my planning career, I noticed that it felt very different in America, that there was a lot of very bright people thrown in at the deep end into planning, really smart people and they were just like, figure it out, you've got this.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah.

[Lisa Prince]

And it was so different from my experience coming up in the ranks in the uk. So basically I made the jump to America to come work at Wieden and Kennedy Portland. So I'd been working at Wieden and Kennedy in London for five years before I made that jump. And I came out to do all the PNG work for the Olympics, the proud sponsor of Mum campaign. So that was kind of my entry to the American world of planning. And I ended up staying five years at Widening Kennedy. This is obviously where I met Britain. And at the end of that five years I started to feel like I wanted to make a jump. And my impetus for my jump was lifestyle number one. I had two young kids at the time. I wanted to be a little bit more in control of my own time. I'd been working agency life for 15 years by that point. So I did definitely felt like I had a bit of burnout. And then the other thing, I was starting to feel a little constrained by my planning skills within an agency environment. So I've been doing this such a long time that when I was coming up, we were media neutral. And then it kind of felt like as agency life was unfolding in the social and digital age, everything was becoming so specialized that I felt very constrained by the thinking around that. Like I wanted to solve big tricky problems for clients. I wanted to be able to influence brand, but also npd. And I was starting to feel more constrained by the agency environment.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

You're beginning to feel constrained or you felt that it was almost that you. You're constrained in not being able to do what you had been doing in the past or what you wanted to do in the future.

[Lisa Prince]

What I had been doing in the past, but also what I wanted to do in the future. I wanted to think a bit bigger. And I felt like I was beginning to be locked into thinking just about tv, for example, in the situation I was in. So. So that was part of it. But also on this journey I noticed that I had a real skill for teaching planning to other people just because I was so incredibly well taught myself when I was coming up in the ranks.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And where did you come up? Where did you come up in the uk?

[Lisa Prince]

Yeah. So great question. I was. These are probably agencies that I'm not sure exist anymore. So I came up in Euro rscg, Wenick Gospel. I then worked at Delaney Lund for a long time and then I moved to Wieden in Kennedy, London.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So I've heard something in our, in our conversations back in the uk, we did a show live from London.

[Lisa Prince]

Yeah.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And I think it was Martin Beverly who said that the reason that the UK agencies and the UK industry produces so many great planners is because planners have had a seat at the executive level at those agencies. And he named a number of them. You think that's in part. I mean, do you think that's valid and do you think that's part of why. And I agree that in the US we haven't had that. And it is the sense sometimes that somebody who just seems to be intelligent and is maybe a good researcher is then given a lot of responsibilities. This is in the past, was given a lot of responsibility beyond what necessarily they were great at.

[Lisa Prince]

What a great question. I honestly think when we were coming up in the uk, and this may date me a little bit, there wasn't that many options with our clients. You were just doing tv, radio and posters. And so you had These long term relationships with clients, AOR relationships, but actually the outputs were pretty limited. And so in order to add value in those situations, the planner was really capped as a business partner, like a creative business partner to the C suite. And the role of the planner felt like you were unlocking value for the business. So you would get very deep in your client's business and you would be touching things, not only just communications, but also like new product development, innovation pipelines, pricing. And I think that is very true of a lot of senior planning in the uk. And so when I came to the us, that was just a real. It was really delightful to have that skill set and be able to operate at that level.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So, Britain, what about you and your background? As I've mentioned before, there's an awful lot of CMOs that come on our show and your name seems to pop up a lot for what you've been doing over the last couple of years. And I'm curious, tell us about where you came from.

[Britton Taylor]

Sure. I was an English major in undergrad and didn't really know what I wanted to do with that. Actually taught seventh grade at a private school in Virginia for a year, which was probably the hardest job I've ever had. And just by, I think, happenstance, somebody handed me John Steele's book about strategy, which is really my entry into the discipline. And I soon after applied to vcu, the ad center now, which is called the Brand Center. And that sort of was the stepping stone for me into this career. My first agency job was at Goodby Silverstein and Partners in San Francisco, working with folks like Chris Chalk, John Thorp and even Andy Nairn. So I did get, I think, a bit more of a classical training because I think a lot of my bosses were from England, which was helpful. And then I had a quick stint at publicist Seattle for a year. And then I went to wynan Kennedy around 2006 and I was there for about 16 years. So I left to go freelance. We're coming up on almost four years.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So what do you think you learned about yourself during that journey? When you look back on it, what was it about that journey? What did you take from it? All that sort of either rounded you out more or gave you a better sense of what you might ultimately want to do?

[Britton Taylor]

Oh, man, that's a good question. I think for me, you know, working in the ad industry as a strategist for, you know, over two decades, you know, I think you spend a lot of that time working on so many different things and eventually you figure out what you're really good at. And I think for me it's really that I, I feel like I have really great creative instincts. I think I'm, I'm a really great, how to put it, sort of right brain thinker and really thrived in environments and in projects and working with people who are really trying to do and unlock great creative work, work that's distinctive and memorable and work that's going to get talked about. So now that I'm on sort of the other side of agency life, I think I have the luxury and the opportunity to really seek out those kinds of relationships where I can really take those creative instincts and continue to do great work. I think sometimes working at an agency environment you realize, especially after many years, you realize there can be a sort of a, a bit of a glass of a ceiling in terms of the autonomy that you can have in that environment. And I feel like I'm feeling much more freedom working for myself. I can pick and choose the people that I want to work with. People like, you know, George Felix, first at Tender and now at Chili's. And now I'm much more, I feel like much more of a smoke jumper and I can come in and solve those sort of bigger brand challenges that Lisa was referring to. And I think that's much more rewarding than maybe getting, I don't want to use the word stuck, but working on an account where you're just kind of doing the day to day stuff and not tackling those big sort of juicy strategic challenges.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Hey Tom, so for you, we've had you on the show a couple of times. Tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are today.

[Tom Morton]

I think my journey might be quite similar to Lisa's in that respect. So, I mean, I'm here as an agency executive turned entrepreneur and I started off in UK ad agencies, so DDB London, now Adam and Eve tbwa, and then more than a decade in New York based brand agencies and brands and innovation firms. All of which culminated in an 8 year stint at RGA where I was the Chief Strategy officer. And I left that at the end of 2023. And now for just over a year I have been the founder of a strategy consultant called Narratory Capital, which is all about helping creative businesses and brand owners build bigger futures.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

What is the story behind the name?

[Tom Morton]

The story behind the name is that I think there is a genuine value in having a story, being able to explain who you are, what you believe in and who you're for in a Way that is totally relevant to the changing world is an incredible asset for a business and not everyone has got one. And so hence that combination of narrative and being narratory and the concept of capital that there is genuine value in having this.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So one of the things that I found for myself when I before I started the show, I sort of realized that while I loved planning, there were parts of planning that I loved more than the others. And what I loved the most was the investigative part. It was digging in, it was asking those tough questions, it was interviewing people. And I think what I did, not consciously, but it just seems to have emerged, is that this show allows me to do the parts of planning that I love the most. And I can definitely say that I feel the most fulfilled I've ever felt, Lisa, in my entire career, because I've been able to do that. It's like that journey that I went through over those number of decades working in planning and inside agencies. I was able and lucky enough to be able to peel it back to the part that I love the most and have been incredibly lucky to build a show. Tell us about that journey for you. You mentioned that you sort of were drawn to teaching and mentoring other people. Is that part of what led you to what you're doing now?

[Lisa Prince]

Partly, yes. And actually I probably should tell you a little bit about what I'm doing now. So I'm the founder of a company called School of Ideas and we basically teach the tool, tools and tricks of innovative thinking, creative problem solving to brand teams, marketing teams, product teams and agencies. We've been around 10 years now, which kind of blows my mind. And it is such a joy for me. I love how you talk about this being a joy. I'm so lucky to feel like my passion and values align with what I do on a day to day. So I feel very blessed for that. And I think a lot about why did I end up here, what was it about my story that led me to this career? And I often think about planning as being a translator. I feel like you translate abstract concepts, whether that's a great creative idea or a new approach in for your clients. So you bridge that gap. And then you also translate sort of business problems and marketing problems into creative jumping off points that kind of ignites a creative team. So you're constantly pivoting between the right brain and the left brain and being a translator between both. And that's the bit of planning that I've always really loved. Both the logic and the creativity, the rigor and then the chaos Like, I've really enjoyed being able to play in both of those spaces.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And in what way is that fulfilling for you, more so than what you were doing before?

[Lisa Prince]

One of the most fulfilling things I find. So I'll give you a little anecdote to bring this to life. So I'm regularly standing up in front of a room, say, of about 50 or 60 people, and I will say, who here is expected to have an idea for a living? And all the hands go up. And then the next question I often ask is, and who here was taught how to have an idea? And the number of hands that then goes up is about 2. And the next question I ask is, did you go to art college? And more often than not, both of the folks will go, yep. So what's happening is we're expecting everyone to have ideas in the workplace, but we're not equipping them with the skills to get there. And so the joy for me is when I see the light, like, in people's eyes or that moment of recognition where they're like, I get this. I've just shared something that they're like, I can actually use that this afternoon. It's going to make my job easier. You've suddenly explained something that I found very tricky or complicated, and now I have a process that I didn't have before, and you can visibly see the relief. So I suppose I just really enjoy sharing things that make other people's lives easier, and I'm really passionate about that. So that's the real joy, I think, of the work I do right now.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So, Tom, the same question to you. Because we look at shops like Wieden, we look at rga, we look at the great work that everybody's been doing, and nobody's career, nobody's job is perfect. Nobody's naive enough to think that. But for you, when you were setting up your new outfit, were you looking at where opportunity was, or were you looking at what you were most passionate about? Or were you looking at what you thought was broken?

[Tom Morton]

That's a great question. I think the truth is, every time you create a business, it's always a fusion of what are you naturally able to do meets, what might the world need? And I think this is a really important question for strategists who are thinking about going it alone or setting up their own thing. I think there's a culture or there's a trope in strategy that we're brilliant generalists and just throw us a problem and we'll do a good job with it. And I think that's true. And I think that's a real skill to have in an agency world where all kinds of client problems could be coming in. And if you can size or shape one faster than anyone else, that's really valuable to you. You, when you're independent, that's not like that because people, people are hiring you for specific problems. They're not looking for who is the best generalist. They're looking for someone who might be the right person for this problem. And so I had to, I, I, I, I could have done almost, almost any form strategy because when you're the CSO and in a firm that is as eclectic as rga, you touch almost everything. But I realized I had to actually choose some kind of specialism. And so what I decided on was the thing that I had, I'd got some track record in. And also the thing I loved was the thing that you had spoken about, which is that detective work about truly understanding what an organization is, who their customers are, and how that might be applied to the future. So that art of, of how do you find the customers who are going to unlock your business, that next generation, how are you going to set some kind of purpose or value proposition that makes it clear that you are right for them and that this might be a bigger role for you in future? And so I chose that, that would be my swim lane. And I found that both satisfying because that's often when brands and brand owners are at their most open minded. And it's also where you get to be very, very, you get a bit deep thinking because you're very deep into organizations, into customers, into, into the business world and you've got to come back with something original. And so for me, that was, that was the joy of being able to, to pick a lane, pick a specialism and choose, you know, a, a particular application of planning where I felt like there might be some kind of particular value to it.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Because Breton, when you left Wieden, I was kind of shocked because, you know, you'd been on the show a few times, you talked about some major brands. You were at Wieden and Kennedy, right? Everybody's like bows down to Wieden and Kennedy. You could have gone to another agency, why not another agency? And then why did you pick to do your own thing? Because it's, you know, it's scary for people. I mean, you're, you're, I mean, you've got a family and you know, there's a lot of responsibility. Talk us through that journey of deciding what was going to be next for you?

[Britton Taylor]

Yeah, I think it's interesting because there are plenty of people that I reached out to when I was thinking about going freelance. Because you're right, there is certainly a considerable amount of fear and uncertainty when you are thinking about making that leap. Thankfully, I had someone like George Felix who was working at Tinder, who was able to give me a big project right before I left. So I had. There was a certain amount of security that came with the leap for me.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

That's killer. Right? That's such a great thing to have.

[Britton Taylor]

Yeah. So, you know, I think I mentioned this earlier. It's just at some point you sort of, you start to see the ceiling. Certainly I could have become head of strategy somewhere. And for me it was frankly just working on a few clients, a few different clients in the agency world. And I just, it was not inspiring to me and you. And again, you lose a bit of autonomy when you're working in an agency. You don't necessarily get to pick and choose the things that you want to work on and you end up sometimes working on projects that aren't inspiring. And when you work in this industry for several decades and you've amassed sort of the network that I've amassed just working on so many different things over the years, again I found myself discovering like, man, what could life look like on the outside for me, being able to be a bit more choiceful about the people that I work with, the brands that I work on, the agencies that I partner with, partner with. So as soon as I was able to make that leap, man, the freedom on the other side was frankly quite liberating. This is going to sound maybe a little silly, but even just the number of meetings that I have today on a daily basis, when I worked in the agency world, it was a rare occasion for me to find a 30 minute window or an hour window of time just to think. And now that I'm in the freelance world, like just, you know, I have so much more free time to do sort of the deep thinking that is often required for this discipline. And having that free time is having the luxury of that time to think has been pretty incredible.

[Tom Morton]

I think we should talk more about this. This is one of the Brit. What you just described, I think is one of the most liberating and valuable things about, about independent strategy businesses is if you are in a big company and you're high up, the amount of time you spend on like university administration and manage, managing the machinery versus working on the client problem. I don't want to think about what that ratio is, but it wasn't right. It's a lot. That's a bit of British understatement there. And there is something so much healthier if in that indie strategy world, you spend 100% of your time thinking about the client's problem, and it gives an incredible amount of clarity. And I think that that's what's kind of set your brain free. It means that all your energy can go into the problem the client has, the problem the client is paying to be solved. It's a much more honest form of exchange. And I think it also, as well as being good for the brain, I think it creates a better working relationship because every. Everything is about the problem they're paying that they have and the problem they're paying for you to solve.

[Lisa Prince]

I couldn't agree with this more. One of the most delightful things about going out on your own is you're given the opportunity to figure out how you work best, how you actually plan your day. So when you're in an environment, you're like, I show up to work or I'm showing up to my desk at home, and I have to kind of sit here for eight hours and do a bit of back and forth and emails and meetings. And when I went out on my own, I was like, I realized I'm really great in the morning and I'm really shitty in the afternoon. So the morning's about deep work and the afternoons about admin. And then the next thing I realized is when I was building my business, I didn't know this was a term at the time, a lifestyle business, but I built a lifestyle business. So one of the things that we do in our business is we try not to work summers. So we take two months off every summer. And I've been doing this now for nine years, so I've had nine summers off. And I will tell you this, what I've realized is your USP becomes the fact that you're rested and you've watched the documentaries, you've read the interesting books, you've listened to the interesting podcasts. You've had time to step back, look at the industry, think about where it's going right where it's going wrong. Digest a big project, figure out how you're going to improve your business because you have a chance to step away. So I think that deep work that everyone's been talking about, that incredible focus you can give projects, and also the rest that you can build into your schedule, is a huge asset and as the years go on and the speed of work just increases, I increasingly notice people looking very, very tired and burnt out when I go into meetings. And I wonder how much the thinking is suffering just from that.

[Britton Taylor]

Yeah, I will tackle onto that and just say that in addition to working just more on brands and with people that I truly admire, I will say that being a freelancer has afforded me, or at least given me the privilege to honestly devote a lot of my time to doing things that aren't, you know, that aren't advertising or marketing related. I'm able, much more able now to do some of the volunteering, especially in the political realm now, than I was able to before. So I've been an officer with my local county Democratic Party. Last fall I was able to start an affinity group, Cradus for Harris, with Jonathan Jacobs, a friend of mine, being afforded the opportunity that the extra time, because of the freedom that I have now, owning my own business has been valuable in terms of being able to pursue the things that help me to fill up that karma bucket a bit more.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And that makes you a more rounded off strategist. In my mind. I think that there's a tendency, and we've all heard it throughout the years, people encouraging us to don't read marketing books, don't read, read something else, get involved in something else. Because it tends to trigger a side of our brains that don't get triggered if we become too deep in our own industry. And I find that too, it's like the idea that you can do a lot of other things and you make time for other things that you love, make you a better strategist, make you a more interesting person. Tom, I think that's very true.

[Tom Morton]

True. There is a rabbit hole you can go down, I think, as an independent, where if you think your community is linked in and jumping on very angry debates about why Liquid death didn't succeed in the UK or why you should be angry about Jaguar. You're wasting so much energy versus going deep and yeah, just enjoying, enjoying reading things that are going to make you better. And I think you have to start getting like a disciplined reading habit. My personal obsession, my good rabbit hole actually is surveys and like understanding how the public really think and feel about things. I feel that's a very satisfying place to go into. And the fact you've got some freedom to fall down that hole and come back wiser is so much more useful. Everyone's got their version of that and it doesn't matter if it's like pew, pew, Research or it's novels or it's political activism. As Britain was saying, I think, yeah, you need to find ways of rounding out your brain.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And speaking about rounding out, one of the things before I started this show, I was consulting for a number of years and I love the client engagements. Just like what Britain was saying. I got very lucky when I left an agency that I had sort of a number like two or three clients waiting. But that shit dries up, man, and you end up with peaks and valleys. And one of the things that I always struggled with, and I'm curious if you guys face the same thing, is the idea that you get tons of work and because you're in the job of doing, you're not necessarily planting the seeds for the work that needs to come in six months later. So you come off of projects almost terrified where the next one is going to come from. And I think in retrospect, what I think I should have done back then is I should have had a partner who was in charge of, of developing those business leads. But I was going it alone. And I don't know if you are Britain, but I found that, that and I hear from other people it's almost an impossible cycle to live through. So for anybody thinking of coming out to become freelancers, even though you may feel you've got your bucket full for a while, maybe you need to be thinking about partnering with somebody else with skill sets that round you out in the issue of business development. In the same way you would kind of have an account manage that. You work inside an agency as a planner, you have somebody who's part of your team.

[Britton Taylor]

Yeah, I mean, I certainly wish I had a person like that. I do not. For me, it's, you know, I try to do whatever I can to sort of organically cultivate a network and a community of people. And what I found is that if you're nurturing those relationships and sort of just, just checking in with folks every now and then, sort of opportunities kind of bubble up. You know, there's. I'm a part of, I don't know, three or four or five different Slack groups, some of which are senior level marketers. I started a Slack group called the Portland Freelancers Guild. It's just people in the Portland community and we use it as a resource. You know, a lot of people have questions about, you know, taxes and W2s and other people have questions. They're looking for a writer, they're looking for an editor. So, you know, for me it's about, you know, Continuing to cultivate, cultivate those things. And opportunities, thankfully, knock on wood, opportunities keep bubbling up. But you're right, the, the grind, the grind is real. There are, there are peaks and valleys and you gotta be prepared for those.

[Lisa Prince]

I'd love to add to that. I actually, when I left and founded School of Ideas, I partnered with someone, Hannah Nespan Newell. She's awesome. She's our managing director and also my best friend. And, and I would say one of the things I've really delighted in, in that relationship is just being able to make decisions together. There's so many decisions you have to make when you're out on your own. And I personally love having a sounding board just to be like, hey, have we thought about this? Have we thought about that? That has been really helpful but also joyful for me to have that. So I wonder if you're going out on your own, you might not have to have such a formal arrangement with someone, but to have your own board of directors, your unofficial board of directors. I always love that I have, I have my sort of thinking crew as well. I think that can be really, really helpful just to create that around yourself and also just I'm always asking people for help and I, I don't mean like sort of do the job for me type of help. I mean just like what would you do in this situation? Or I'm thinking about this, have you got any advice? Advice? So I'm constantly asking people for advice so that we can always be learning. And that's also just a great two way street too for nurturing relationships just to be helpful and just be a resource for people. And like Britain was talking about, you know, when you nurture those relationships in really helpful ways and things always bubble up.

[Britton Taylor]

That's so true. Great point. In terms of having a partner, you can only spend so much time with ChatGPT pretending you know, that they're your friend. So, you know, having a sparring partner has been valuable for me as well. So I've, I've partnered with another strategist, Katie Drakey, who's incredible, who has a lot of experience especially working with brands like Nike and Adidas. So we've actually partnered to take on some bigger assignments that I probably that neither of us could have managed singularly on our own. So we've done some very big global strategy projects with H and M, with Puma, we've done some workshops for Nike. So again, having a partner, someone to beat up ideas with has been a really valuable sort of addition to some of the Work that I've done as a freelancer.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So, Tom, I look at what you're thinking of doing and I think of what Johnny Bauer did and they're almost like. It almost makes you look back and go, there's actually a couple of different models here that you can do when you come outside as a strategist, Johnny Bauer's model was he sort of rolled up with Blackstone and launched this idea with a private equity firm around. This idea that there were certain trigger points in the cycle of a company and when they're acquired or when they get a major investment, that tends to be a time of change and maybe brand and brand strategy at that time of change is a great, great time for that discussion because you got new managers, you got new owners, you've got other things. Then I look at Martin Beverly and Richard Brim, what they're doing out of the uk, and it's not fully formed yet, but it's a completely different model. It's almost like a small agency boutique, which is a pretty traditional thing. Look at what Nils Lantern has done and that crew. What do you see for you? Do you. Do you see this as this is something that you will build over time? Do you look out 12 months, or are you in the moment now?

[Tom Morton]

I don't think this is an agency because if you're going to do an age, there is no agency without a spectacular creative partner. And it's no coincidence. Take Martin Beverly, what he's doing with Rick Brimming, what Lucy Jameston and Nils Leonard did with Uncommon. It's no coincidence. There's a generational creative talent in the mix there. I think what I'm doing is more deliberately strategy led. I've sensed the same thing that Johnny did with Fundamental Co is there are moments of truth for organizations. Often it is, whether it's like an investment round or it's a new CEO or it's some kind of fundamental technological change. There are moments when organizations become very open to change and when they genuinely need to look at what they do next. It's easy to say all organizations should think about the future, but that's like saying that everyone ought to eat fiber and exercise. The point is, there are certain moments where people are really open to thinking about this and we're thinking about the future stops being like a luxury additive thing to do and becomes absolutely vital for an organization. And so narratory capital is kind of built around those moments, or at least those have always been the triggers for clients and organizations that I've found myself Speaking with and working with.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And how would you define the type of strategy that you're working on now or you're offering now?

[Tom Morton]

So it's basically it's strategy fundamentals and narrative fundamentals, but applied to the future and applied to what's next. And this comes from a conversation I had with Nick Law, who was our creative guru at rg, is now chairman of Accenture Song. And he had this theory that in business if you can do two things together or put two things together that people find hard to put together, then you probably have a business. And in this case it was. We often find that the people who are good at fundamental strategy and putting it into words are often a little bit icky or dismissive about technology and next generation audiences. And also the people whose expertise is in technology, in a changing world, the next generation aren't always able to phrase it it and frame it in a way that an organization can care about and act on. So it's that ability to do the foundational, the future facing together that I've found myself building around.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Interesting.

[Lisa Prince]

I've never heard of that. Bringing two things together and you have a business. And that's really sparked me because I'm like, I feel like that's what we're doing with school of ideas, also bringing together just those fundamental strategic creative problem solving skills, but also in a way where we're helping people scale, scale those skills within an organization. So. Thanks, Tom. I hadn't heard of that.

[Tom Morton]

I'm borrowing from Nick. It's okay. My understanding is that it comes from his diagnosis and his time with Apple that if you can bring together technology and humanistic design, then you have the world's most valuable company. And that ability to combine is also a good way of creating business difference like way down the line and into, you know, little boutique businesses like our own.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So Tom, do you see when you look two, three years down the road, do you see you would be a band of strategists that are working together, offering their services. So it will be a strategy house. Is that the way you envision it or do you want to keep it just you and a number, number of people brought in as you need them?

[Tom Morton]

I think a band or a collective is the way to go. What I've found is it's been really use. The people who really used to bring in in the early stage of this are the people who have skills that you don't, who can round them out.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Morton]

I look back at the projects I've done in the past Year. So it's been like a designer, a, a brilliant copywriter, an organizational strategist who thinks more in terms of like Gantt chart and Org chart parts than in terms of, you know, TED talks and town halls. And so I think there is real value in creating these combinations, these pairs doing also what everyone's been talking about, of just having like a pool of experts you can call on. I think right now the industry, the old, the old industry is kind of deconstructing, the new industry is building up. And so I'm not sure that if we should be thinking about like how we solidify by how we get offices, how we get large numbers of permanent hires. But I think that ability to create collectives and tap into and hire like minded experts is going to be really important. So yeah, I think, I think for a while the future is going to belong to these like amorphous, like minded bands of people.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Like for me, I never thought about, when I was consulting, I never thought about it becoming a formal company company Britain. What I was wanting to do was just do really rewarding work and earn a salary while doing it right as a freelancer, I mean that was it, that was the extent of my ambition. What is it for you?

[Britton Taylor]

Well, first I would say that one of the great things about starting your own company is that you can name it whatever the hell you want. So my company is called Tritton Baylor Strategic Industries, which is just me playing with some of the letters. Yes.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

That sounds like something from a Batman movie.

[Tom Morton]

Movie.

[Britton Taylor]

Yes. And then Katie Drakey, we, we created almost like a fake company. We're not incorporated, but we call ourselves Duh, the French word for tv, which is just so obnoxious. But we, we enjoy it. Yeah. You know, I think the way I, I think about what I'm doing now frankly is more pragmatic. I, I think I'm in my sort of peak earning years and I'm trying to maximize that. I'm of course trying to work with brands that I love and, and people that I love working with. But for me it's less about the day to day work frankly that I find rewarding and it's more about, you know, again, the luxury of having more time frankly to spend with my family, working with, with nonprofits, volunteering. So for me that's honestly what I'm finding rewarding given sort of where I am in my career at the moment.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So it's not about a, a larger shop, a big consulting boutique down the road. It's, it's just about Doing shit you love with people. Love.

[Britton Taylor]

I think that's absolutely correct. Right?

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah. So. Hey, Lisa, One of the things I'm always curious about with, with people when they, when they, when they go outside of the walls of the agency is whether they're running from something or they're running to something. And. And you know, because there's a. There's a lot that can be said about the fact that agencies aren't doing the best work that they could be doing and that people leave because of that, because they're like, shit, I'm sick of being forced into doing things a certain way. I don't feel that I'm really getting. I'm not getting inspired by what I'm doing. I'm not feeling it's ideally what I could be doing. And my clients really need. So they move out and they make something happen. There's others who are just. Who have a different sort of a vision for it. So when you start, started the school of ideas, were you seeing shit that was broken that you felt that you could fix?

[Lisa Prince]

So there was two parts to it. I think there was what I wanted to fix and also what I wanted to bring. So one of the things I wanted to fix was just being able to give people simple tools, tricks and processes that made the whole planning process so much easier. I saw a lot of people spinning their tails because they're super bright, they're super culturally switched on, but they just hadn't really been given any concrete tools in terms of how to approach things. And you know what? They will get there in the end. They will have brilliant ideas, but they'll often work really, really hard to get there. And it's a very slow way to learn if you're just learning by your mistakes. Takes and I was super passionate in starting school of ideas just to give people a real leg up right from the beginning. As in, let me share everything I was ever taught, let me share everything that ever worked for me or for others and see if that helps you be able to spend your time on all the really sort of big shifting stuff, like the thing, the thinking that really moves the needle versus spending such a cognitive load on like, how do I even start this project? Or what do I do next? So that was what I saw to be broken. And it's so such a delight to see people be like, okay, you've kind of given me a Christmas tree. I always like to think in terms of Christmas trees and decorations. I feel like the industry gives people a lot of decorations, but it doesn't necessarily give them that underlying structure which I call tree.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Tom, I, I wanted to touch on with you the idea of. Because I hear about it a lot. I, I hear basic frustration, you know, with, with people who are inside shops on, on the client side and on, on the agency side. But for people who are frustrated and thinking of jumping out, what do you, what do you suggest to them? Because a part of it is, you've got to realize that. But not every fricking day can be a great day. Not every month can be a great month. When you're inside a shop and there is no idealism. So what do you have to make sure you've got in place before you step out?

[Tom Morton]

There's a few things that you're going to need. I think the first is you need a very clear understanding of your own value proposition and what you're the right person for. Because if you don't, if you go into market as, hey, I'm this great generalist, it can sound kind of whimsical to people who are hiring. I think you have to think about where, what is your situation economically, Is this, is this as brink called, is this a pragmatic situation where you're in peak earning years or are you going to be, do you have the luxury of being more selective about the things you do? And then, and the big thing you have to do, I think as a strategist is you've got to translate everything into value. It is very easy to be part of a think in an agency. You are part of a process and so you turn up and do your thing and the process runs itself. When you are an independent, you are the process, you are the structure. And so you have to bring structure to what you do do. And so, you know, if you're, you know, if you're talking to a client about problem, it is step by step. Here are the things I'm going to do, here are the things you're going to get. Here is the time it's going to take. And I think that's probably the biggest adjustment you have to make as a strategist is how you, how you productize and organize and frame what you do so you become a viable unit. I guess this is back to what we was talking about a minute ago. You know, you, you can't just be a set of decorations. You have to give, you have to be a bit of Christmas tree, a bit of overriding structure because that, that's what then makes you salable.

[Lisa Prince]

Yeah. And I would love to add to this, that the top piece of advice I would give to a strategist who is considering on jumping out of agency life is to really beef up your business acumen muscles. So one of the things I found about being a strategist in agency life is I was very sheltered, very, from client fees, scopes of work, the actual numbers behind the business. And obviously when you go out on your own, that stuff is really, really important. How much you should charge, where your value is, how you scope a project, where is a bit you can plug into the market that there's a gap that is not currently being served. So really, the business acumen of strategy really, really sort of increases in importance when you're out on your own. So if you're thinking about jumping ship in the next year, spend as much time as you can in this year learning that bit of the business, because it will serve you incredibly well when you're out on your own.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

What would you add to that, Britain about what, what people should do before they actually take that leap?

[Britton Taylor]

Yeah, I didn't know what the hell I was doing, I'll be honest. So I echo everything that Lisa's talking about in terms of learning the business fundamentals. I will say I actually learned a lot. I will give a shout out to Andrew Dixon and Aaron James. They have a whole sort of like freelance. It's almost like a lesson plan. Their company is called Mount Freelance and they teach some very practical skills in terms of how, how does billing work, how to interact with clients, you know, what kind of legal things should you be setting up, you know, navigating taxes, all that stuff that you really don't think you don't have to think about, thankfully, when you're, when you're at an agency. So, you know, figuring out all those things is, is, is super important. And again, that's where having a network can come in handy because there's obviously legions of people who are independent now who've encountered some of these problems and you can lean on those folks, kind of help you navigate it as well.

[Tom Morton]

One thing about what we've been describing, whether it's like learning how to get paid or how, how to, how to frame your value, is it can be extremely liberating once you've got it. It's very new at the beginning because, you know, as we were saying, you are, you are kept at arm's length from, say, client fees. So sending out your first invoice, getting paid the first time, writing a proposal where it's only the things that are valuable and only the things that you would advise these the client should do is incredibly liberating because suddenly it's your ideas, it's your money, and you suddenly have this sort of ownership of your work, your time, and also the responsibility, the money that you never had when you were an employee. And I think that can be incredible liberation and a real lesson for strategy. People who are, are, as we've all been saying today, a little bit cosseted in, you know, within an agency structure.

[Lisa Prince]

I think Plato may have said this, but there's a great quote that anxiety is the price you pay for freedom. And I often think about that being a business owner. So that is, I. I like to say that every job has a shit sandwich. And it's just depends on what shit sandwich you're prepared to eat at that moment in time. And basically, I think the shit sandwich of being out on your own is, it is a little bit more anxious, there's a little bit more anxiety. But the flip side of that is that is the price you pay for this enormous amount of freedom. Freedom with your time, freedom with your thinking, freedom with your working style, freedom to spend time with your family. And you know what it's worth, it's really worth it.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

It is. Lisa Prince, founder of School of Ideas and Mrs. Prince, LLC before her consulting work. Britton Taylor is freelance strategist in Portland, Oregon. And Tom Morton, Narratory Capital is his firm in New York City. Hey, thank you all for joining me today. I appreciate your voices as part of this discussion.

[Britton Taylor]

I had a blast.

[Tom Morton]

That was great.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Awesome, guys. Thank you so much. And we will see everyone on the next episod.