Live from Arnold in Boston: Brains, Grit and Brand Building

Summary

On Strategy Showcase

Episode: Live from Arnold in Boston: Brains, Grit and Brand Building
Host: Fergus O’Carroll
Date: February 10, 2026

---

Overview

This live episode, recorded at the storied Arnold agency in Boston, assembles an all-star panel from both agency and client sides, many of whom share Arnold roots. The discussion delivers an insider’s view of Boston’s unique ad community—its history, what sets it apart, and how it has changed. The panel covers agency identity, strategic and creative relationships, the strengths and weaknesses of in-house vs. agency models, talent evolution, and what it really takes to create brave, lasting brand work. The tone is candid, witty, and warmly competitive—a honest look at building brands in a market that often “punches above its weight.”

---

Key Participants

• Fergus O’Carroll (Host)
• Sean McBride – Chief Creative Officer, Arnold
• Bri Rossetti – Chief Strategy Officer, Arnold
• Gail Felcher – Global Partnerships, Shark Ninja
• Travis Robertson – Co-founder & Executive Creative Director, Colossus
• Ross Sidlowski – Director of Strategy, LEGO Group

---

Main Themes and Segment Highlights

The Boston Market: Legacy & Camaraderie

[07:11–11:32]

• Panelists reflect on Boston’s tight-knit community, where major brands (Fidelity, Hasbro, LEGO, Shark Ninja) and agencies (Arnold, Colossus, Mullen, Hill Holliday) intermingle and foster lasting relationships.
• Bri Rossetti:

  “There’s a real camaraderie here and a lot of really big brands… The power and spirit of creativity is pretty consistent in this market.” (08:13)

• Discussion around agency legacies; panel laments the fading of icons like Mullen, while celebrating Boston’s unique creative “lineage.”
• Travis Robertson:

  “I think we invented American advertising.” (09:13)
  (Refers to the first U.S. ad in 1704 in a Boston newspaper.)

Boston’s Approach: Pragmatic, Smart, and Rooted

[11:32–14:41]

• Agencies are described as embracing a “smarter style,” deeply tied to strategy and client longevity, versus seeking fame for themselves.
• Sean McBride:

  “It’s an agency where we’re more comfortable with our clients being famous than us. …There’s long-termism in the relationship.” (11:59, 14:52)

• Boston agencies must balance “owning their Boston-ness” (not being just provincial) with competing nationally and globally.

What Makes Arnold Distinctive?

[14:41–15:41]

• Arnold’s ethos:

  “We make it safe for our clients to be brave.” (14:52, Sean McBride)

• Emphasizes rigor, long-term relationships, and delivering bold creative in a “safe environment” for clients.

Showcasing Famous Work

[15:41–17:32]

• Fergus plays quintessential Arnold creative, notably Progressive Insurance campaigns, and underscores Arnold's under-the-radar impact on national advertising.

Lessons from Arnold: Foundations of Great Brand Builders

[17:39–19:49]

• Gail Felcher:

  “Arnold is a warm, safe space where ideas can flow. …It was the foundation of everything I take with me today at Shark Ninja. I learned how to be a leader here.” (18:13)

• Importance of bravery, storytelling, and relationship-building not just for agency but also for client-side marketers.

The Value of Enduring Agency Culture

[23:02–24:31]

• Ross Sidlowski:

  “So much of agencies are the ecosystem of humanity… Arnold is a place that’s endured and done great work for a long time.” (23:06)

• The ideal: “Great Work Works”—everyone across departments is invested in creative excellence.

• Bri Rossetti:

  “We want to make good work. We don’t want to have good meetings.” (24:43)

Characteristics of Boston Creative

[25:26–28:39]

• Cites “When I Grow Up” for Monster.com (a Mullen classic) as epitomizing the city’s “breakthrough, original thinking and excellent execution.”
• Travis Robertson:

  “Boston is incredibly clever…I think the writing in this city is clever and smart and funny.” (28:39)

• The city’s agency world is described as “incestuous” but ultimately “feeds itself,” emphasizing intelligence and wit over fleeting trends.

Founding Colossus & Agency/Market Evolution

[29:30–30:41]

• Travis Robertson:

  “We champion the business of creativity... we’re not doing things just to be funny or just to be colorful, we’re doing it with an insight and a business truth in mind.” (29:40)

• Remembers now-defunct Boston agencies (Modernista, Barbarian) as sources of inspiration.

---

Agency “Shrinkage” & Talent Development

[30:41–37:02]

• Dwindling agency numbers are seen as an industry-wide problem, hurting talent development and marketplace vibrancy.
• Sean McBride:

  “The lead time for someone to get it is next to zero now...What we look for is people who are ready to make things right away.” (31:36–32:04)

• Discussion on increasing demands for versatility (“hyphenates”) and speed; panel questions whether academia is keeping up.

---

In-House vs. Agency: The Debate

[37:02–47:50]

• The rise of internal agencies (Shark Ninja, LEGO, Staples, Liberty Mutual)—is it better?
  • Gail Felcher:

    “There is an unlock of storytelling that happens at that product development stage… you’re pulling things from everyone.” (37:29, 39:55)

  • Ross Sidlowski:

    “There are advantages…Our product development and marketing actually sit in the same group…We have deep data and can move quickly.” (43:07)

  • Bri Rossetti:

    “There’s a different dynamic when you work for the same company than your outside perspective… That outside thinking is really important.” (44:37)

  • Travis Robertson:

    “I think the quality of in-house work has changed dramatically in the last decade… there are really talented people in-house building interesting things.” (46:57)

• Pros: alignment, speed, deeper knowledge, risk-taking.
• Cons: risk of insularity—external agencies inject fresh perspective and constructive dissent.

---

Creative and Strategy: Changing Relationship

[48:00–55:52]

• No longer linear—creative and strategy roles are intertwined and collaborative.
• Bri Rossetti:

  “It used to be sequential…now it’s all fucked up in the worst ways and the best ways.” (48:00)

• Modern demands: faster pivots, less time for sequential handoffs, need for flexibility to “meet in the mess.”
• Sean McBride:

  “We’re trying to map and create a process for ideas and ideas are not that dissectible…The idea is all of them at once, inseparable.” (51:23)

• Best work comes when creative sparks can come from anywhere—sometimes the “strategy is the product,” sometimes the big idea comes as a creative flash.
• Travis Robertson:

  “Sometimes the strategy is the product more than the creative…The best work happens when those things are married, but it really is art and less science.” (53:41)

• Maintaining enduring platforms (“keeping it fresh”) is harder than starting anew but critical for lasting brands.

---

Development of Iconic Work: Progressive’s Journey

[55:52–58:42]

• Sean McBride:

  “When I took this job at Arnold, I always wanted to work at Arnold. They offered me a job on an account…and I hadn’t heard of it and I had to look it up. It was Progressive Insurance.” (56:18)

• Progressive’s rapid creative ascent was rooted in a foundationally strong business that “finally started marketing itself like a grown up.”
• Arnold was in the right place at the right time: “All the infrastructure was there, and the last thing they needed was marketing.” (56:18)

---

The Round Table: Less Of & More Of

[59:19–64:40]

• Each panelist offers “less of, more of” for the industry:

  • Travis Robertson:

    “More listening…Sometimes we don’t listen to our clients…the answer is often there for the taking.” (59:19)
    “Invert presentations: often the extension idea is the idea supported by TV.” (59:19)

  • Bri Rossetti:

    “Be more reductive and assertive—make more choices.” (60:18)
    “Step back and let other people do things—they’ll often do it better than you. Get out of the way more often.” (60:44–61:24)

  • Gail Felcher:

    “Do more of reacting at the speed of culture. But be less reactive in a thoughtless way—be strategically reactive.” (61:26)

  • Ross Sidlowski:

    “Stop worrying about AI so much…It’s a tool…great writing will always be great writing.” (61:53)
    “Do more weird things. Take risks. Get a little more weird with the work.” (61:53)

  • Sean McBride:

    “Less self-important, overly complicated shit…Meet people where they are. Make simpler, more fun, more impactful shit.” (63:00, 62:57)
    “We elevate the stakes so much that nothing can live up to it…We need to make simple things that find you where you are and connect with you.” (63:00–64:40)

---

Notable Quotes

• “We want to make good work. We don’t want to have good meetings.”
  — Bri Rossetti (24:43)

• “It’s an agency where we’re more comfortable with our clients being famous than us.”
  — Sean McBride (11:59)

• “I think we invented American advertising.”
  — Travis Robertson (09:13)

• “If you unlock a consumer truth, you can tell that story in a very relevant, meaningful way.”
  — Gail Felcher (27:03)

• “The best work happens when those things [strategy and creative] are married, but it really is art and less science.”
  — Travis Robertson (53:41)

• “We make a lot of self important, overly complicated shit...I wish we could figure out how to make work that meets people where it actually lives in their lives.”
  — Sean McBride (63:00)

---

Takeaways for Brand Builders & Marketers

• Boston’s ad scene is intimate and nurturing, with a legacy of wit, rigor, and craftsmanship.
• Agency identity and locality are powerful assets when properly harnessed—don’t dilute for scale.
• Blurring the lines between client, in-house, and agency roles can create bolder, more informed creative, but outside perspective is still vital.
• Successful strategy-creative partnerships are non-linear, collaborative, and adaptable.
• Building brands is about making brave work in a safe environment—invest in the relationships, not just the final output.
• Amid AI and rapid change, the call is for less overcomplication, more fun, more risk, and staying grounded in the audience’s reality.

---

For further insight and stories behind Boston’s campaigns and agency evolution, listen to the full episode.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O' Carroll in Chicago. Very excited about today's episode at Arnold in Boston, but a couple of household things to mention before we get started. We are going to be in New York City at the Effie judging, which is happening as the North American Effie. It's happening in New York City the week of the 9th. We're going to be recording a roundtable with a bunch of the folks that are there. Very excited to do that. We will release that as an episode. So that's happening the week of March 9th. 9th. That same week we're flying out to San Francisco for what will be the last live tour event for this season and I am thrilled that we're going to be at Uber's headquarters in downtown San Francisco Thursday evening, March 12, 6 to 8pm and would love to see folks from San Francisco join us for that evening. What we're doing, it's going to be client side marketers around the table for this event. So we're going to be focusing on that point of view and a conversation through that lens looking at progressive brands that are in San Francisco. That's going to include the likes of Coinbase, going to include the likes of Uber, and we're going to be talking about the great work that they're doing and what goes into creating that. So look for that. What is it again? Here, see all my notes. It is Thursday evening, March 12th. Tickets will go on sale in probably a week or so from now. And as always you can get those tickets on our [e-mail] under the Live Tour tab. That will be the last live tour stop of this season. The new season will start up earlier this year. We normally start in September and go through February or so. The following year we're going to be starting earlier, probably around May to increase the amount of stops that we're doing on this tour. So we're really excited about that. Always thrilled to have our sponsors for the tour as part of that. It's the Effie's, of course, and our great friends at Tracksuit that are part of our next year's tour. If you want to be a sponsor of next year's tour, we're going to be going to I think 11 or 12 cities. We would love to hear from you so you can reach out to [e-mail] it would be brilliant to have you along. So let's talk about today's episode. We're at Arnold in Boston. And can you believe that Arnold has been around since 1946? It's pretty amazing to think about that. And Arnold kind of got on my radar initially back in probably 2000 or so, maybe a little earlier. I think it was earlier actually, because it was the Driver's Wanted campaign. And they did a brilliant body of work for VW back in the day. And if you remember back to that kind of work, you may remember the da da da spot, which was basically a reflection of Gen X and the characteristics of that generation, at least in terms of how they were thought about as being sort of slackers. And they did some brilliant work that reflected that. In particular that one spot that included this big yellow chair that these guys just happen to come across when they're driving around in their VW Golf or something and they put it in the back of the car and it's a great spot. That same chair is still in the Boston offices of Arnold and I got to sit in it while I was there. So it's an amazing body of work and really enjoyed it. Drivers Wanted was a great brand platform and it has actually now come back in the new work that Johannes Leonardo is doing for the VW brand. So everything old is new again. So enjoy this conversation with a great group of people from the Boston market. We're going to talk about Boston community, the ad community, how it's changed over the years. We're going to be talking about in house agencies versus what I call outhouse agencies. We're going to talk about strategy and creative relationships, being client side and being agency side because we have a number of different client side brands represented in this discussion. And. And we're going to talk about the strategic challenges that we all face as an industry. We managed to only mention AI once in this entire conversation, which I was very proud of. So super excited to have to share this with you. It's Arnold in Boston.

[B]

Live.

[A]

Enjoy.

[B]

Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O' Carroll in Boston.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you, thank you. We are here at a storied agency, Arnold in Boston. I want to bring up our esteemed panel of guests. First up is Sean McBride, Chief Creative Officer of Arnold. Gail felcher global partnerships at shark ninja is here. Travis Robertson is co founder and Executive Creative Director at Colossus. Make yourself comfortable, sir. Bri Rossetti is Chief Strategy Officer at Arnold, And she made this all happen too, along with Laura and Julia. Where are they? Back here. Fantastic. And we have Ross Sidlowski is director of Strategy for the LEGO group. Grab a chair, young man. So I'm thrilled to have you guys all here. I know it's probably a little weird to sit up, so we have to get these microphones pretty close to you, like where I am, like, three inches away from it. And you can kind of move this around. Since they're wireless, we're not stuck. Now, the thing most of you may not know, although you probably do because you all live in Boston, Pretty much everybody at this table worked at this agency, so they know each other. So what's going to happen is I'm not going to be doing all the talking. As you can see, it already started. They're going to be talking to each other. And as I've said to them before, I really want to encourage them to actually ask each other questions about their time here. So let's get into it. It's Boston. I want to talk, Bri, about the Boston market. Who are the players? Who are the brands? Talk us through how things are today.

[C]

Yeah, well, you have a lot of the brands and a lot of the agencies. It's pretty intimate here in the room. You've obviously got Arnold, you've got Colossus, you've got Lego, you've got Shark Ninja. But we've had other brands we all talked about. Do we sort of pour one out for Mullen, which was historically part of the community? And I think we all have a lot of respect for that. I think we'll talk about this more. But the Boston market is. We're all friends with each other and we root for the market and we talk a lot about what's good for the market here in Boston. And Hill Holiday has been a brand here before, and. And Digitas and gyk, and there's just a. I think that there's a real camaraderie here and there's a lot of really big brands, obviously, you guys, but you've got Fidelity, you've got Hasbro here.

[B]

Many, many big brands.

[C]

Uma, you've got. You've got a lot of brands and you've got a lot of really established brands.

[D]

Everybody.

[B]

Can you guys hear Bri? Well, overall, I can talk louder.

[C]

I'm usually really loud.

[B]

You want to bring it up, dial it up. Winston is our audio guy.

[C]

All right. All right.

[B]

Yeah, you bring it. That's perfect. Bring it in a little closer.

[C]

All right. But, yeah, I mean, I think we've got big brands and big companies here, and we've got really killer cred as far as agencies. And for me, it all comes down to talent. I think, you know, you can see it sitting around this table. We've all worked at Arnold. I personally am on my second tour, but people go off and, you know, start agencies and go to big brands, and I think that the power of creativity and the spirit of creativity is pretty consistent in this market.

[B]

What do you. What do you think, Travis?

[E]

I completely disagree.

[B]

This is why you're at the table.

[E]

No, no, I'm joking.

[F]

Dissent.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

No. Boston's got an incredible lineage of. Of creative. I think I was reading, you know, before this podcast, you. We were talking about what we were. What we were going to talk about. And I was reading that the first advertisement that was done in the United States was done in, like, 1704 in the Boston newspaper, which I think is awesome. Like, we are the cradle of.

[C]

Was it for tea?

[E]

I think it was for, like, Billy Arnold. It was a real estate ad for property in Long Island. But, like, I think we invented American advertising.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

So here's a little background. So Hill Holiday was founded in 1968, Mullen in 1970. Now, the other ones that I knew back in the day were Leonard Moynihan, Lou Bars and Kelly, and if you know, David Loubars went on to BBDO and to great, other great things. And that started in the 1980s and another one I knew back in the day, Pagano, Schenk and Kay, 1986. So there's a lot of things happen in Rossin that were happening, and unfortunately, it's sort of reduced down a bit.

[A]

But there's still.

[B]

The creative product hasn't changed.

[A]

It's still great.

[F]

It's incredibly hot. I mean, there's a. I also want to shout out a little legacy. There's a lot of footwear brands here in the Boston area. I mean, in pharmaceutical, education, finance, powerhouse of brands up here, which make it really ripe for agencies such as that to start in the 60s, 70s and 80s. It's just a great environment, I think, for not only brand, but art and culture. And you get that in a progressive city like Boston.

[B]

So what happened to Mullen? Did they roll up into Chia Day and tbwa?

[C]

No, I think that the IPG Omnicom merger, Sunset, that name.

[B]

They did so. But the people, unfortunately, were let go. The entire office.

[C]

I don't think that the entire office was let go. I think that they're rolled up into the new offering there, and we still have a lot of. A lot of friends there. But I think that, you know, we have a lot of respect for agency names that have created legacy and, like, really. And Mullen's an agency that I think we all respect. You know, had a great sense of, ooh, got a little quiet. I like that. But, like, had a great sense of self. Like, made great work, fought for great work. You know, I think, like, one of the things that's important for me to say tonight and for. I imagine everyone in this room is like, boston's a powerhouse, but we punch above our weight. This isn't some, like, provincial town. Like, we're. We're doing amazing national work across the board. And I think, you know, Mullen's one of those agencies that has that legacy too. But, you know, there are. There are things that go beyond the work product in our industry.

[B]

So, Sean, I think you. I think what George said earlier was. Was. Was interesting because I was trying to draw that distinction between what's sort of what's Boston esque and what's other markets. Yeah, I think. I think he said pragmatic versus theoretical. Something like that. That contrast. What do you think the differences or the strength is of Boston?

[D]

I like that as a descriptor, I think.

[B]

And then what does it mean as a descriptor, too?

[D]

Well, I think a lot of times when we talk about Arnold, a thing that we tout is that it's an agency where we're more comfortable with our clients being famous than us. And that indicates a specific approach. I do think there's a style to some of the agencies in Boston historically. It's like a smarter style, maybe tied to strategy, but not just that executionally as well. I think what's interesting is we struggle for the last 25 years in this industry about knowing whether we're supposed to lean into what defines agencies or not. Right. When you get regional, when you get known for something that could feel limiting, it's interesting that we're in an age where, like, now a bunch of very famous brand names can just go away, and you're not. You're not going. What gap did that leave? It left no gap. Right. Which is strange in some ways. The shrinking of this city and their agencies, I think, was about a battle between, should we be provincial or be specific? To us, provincial is the wrong word, but have a unique Boston point of view and lean into your Boston ness or run from it. And to be honest, the big agencies of this town have tried to run from it a lot over the last 30 years. And what it does is it strips it of its Soul. And so it's a tough balance. Arnold's not a provincial agency by any stretch of imagination. We're a national agency. I want any brand that wants to work with us to come in here of any kind. Right. But I also can't lose what makes us us. And we just saw, like, these brand names that are bigger and more special in the history of advertising than us because they shed what was unique about them. They go. And we don't even know what the gap in the market is. And so, as agency leaders, we got to figure out how we're special. How you have something that you're really good at that not everybody can do. And Boston, this is part of that. Like, being 2000. 2000. Nice. McBride. 200 miles from New York is distinctive. Right. Own that, but don't own that in a way that makes you feel small or like you can't compete with the big guys. That's hard to do. But if you want to know why it's shrunk in this town, it's because there was a period of time, Travis can attest, where guys in my job would say, I'm not hiring from Boston anymore. I'm done with that. Like, I'm only getting talent international. I'm only bringing people in from outside. That's cool. All this great talent everywhere. But what does that do for your identity? Why are you hiring Arnold? What's special about it? What do you feel when you go there? If it's not people, what is it?

[B]

And why were they wanting to go outside of Boston?

[D]

Because I think they felt like there was a provincial halo that they wanted to shed. They were like, we're gonna go global, man. Like, I want every brand in the country to come here. And that's fine if you have the best work in the world, but if you don't, again, if you lose your identity, how do you attract people? Why are you special? Like, what do people come to you for they can't get somewhere else? And what do people miss if you're gone?

[B]

So, Arnold, in. I don't know if you think about it in short little tagline type terms or a sentence, but how would you just. How. Why should I hire Arnold? Or why should I come to Arnold?

[D]

Well, our sentences, we make it safe for our clients to be brave. And that was a big deal for us when George and I and Bree and Val got our jobs running this place to try to crystallize what we thought was special about the place. Why I like that is I think we make some of the best work in the country. But we do it in an environment where there's rigor before and after. There's long termism in the relationship. So we're not going to sell it to you to try to get an award show and then leave. We actually know how to produce things, so we're not walking into rooms saying this would be cool like the glib tongue salesman. And then when it gets to production, we don't know how to do it. So to me, that sets up what we're good at. Like if you want to make the best creative of your life, this is an environment where you don't have to have a death wish to do that. It's a safe environment to do that. We're going to be here after we've done it before. We believe in the results of great creative. So.

[B]

So I want to play a few spots, then we'll come back and talk with Gail. I want to. I want to play a few spots from Arnold because believe it or not, I don't think that most people, while they'll recognize this work, you'll recognize it obviously being of Boston, but I don't think most people in the US and definitely internationally recognize the fact that this work comes from this market and this shop. So let's play a couple of spots here. This is all spots I'm going to play three or four spots from. From Arnold.

[D]

Now, do you guys work for the.

[F]

Building or are you contracted out?

[D]

We're part of a larger company. Part of.

[E]

See, that's exactly what I would have guessed. I don't care and neither should you.

[D]

Progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents.

[B]

But we can protect your home in auto when you bundle with us.

[E]

Quick question about the tipping procedure.

[C]

Sarah Benzino, Brandon Coley, Jablonsky Auto Body llc. Yeah, she call Harper.

[F]

Oh, you mean Jablonsky Auto Body llc.

[C]

We actually sold the twins naming rates.

[F]

You know, like stadiums do.

[D]

Kids are so expensive these days.

[B]

Here he goes.

[C]

Oasis, Breeze, Tan and Spot. If you need a tan, I'm your man.

[D]

Could do business with you.

[C]

Or we can look at some investment options for you.

[D]

Works for us.

[B]

The right money moves aren't as absurd as you think.

[G]

Yeah, it's been great. I saved hundreds when I switched to progressive.

[A]

Molly Burke is passive Progressive.

[C]

That's so great.

[B]

Maybe you can buy a bigger sun hat.

[A]

Molly doesn't have Progressive and takes it out on those who do.

[C]

You know, if they make one, I can handle my claim online or on the phone. Whatever's Easiest Deanna. She can be laid back.

[A]

Let's eat.

[C]

Girls. I'm so happy you didn't blow all.

[F]

Your savings upgrading to a better room.

[C]

Oh, look, they do have rooms with balconies.

[A]

Don't be passive progressive lucky switch to get good coverage and savings for yourself.

[B]

So I love that work.

[F]

Please.

[B]

I mean, it's exciting to look at all that work. And as I've said to you before, I do desperately want to do a progressive insurance episode. So we have to squeeze them a little bit and make that happen because I could spend the next hour and a half just talking about progressive. And we're not going to do that, obviously, but we want that to happen in the future. But, Gail, you guys have all worked here. What did you learn when you were here and how are you applying it?

[G]

I don't think it's appropriate to share.

[C]

What?

[G]

No, I'm kidding.

[C]

Probably not.

[G]

That's true. You know, I think Arnold is. And Sean really described it well. I think Arnold is a warm, safe space where ideas can flow. And I think having transitioned from agency to client side, a lot of the things I recognize in myself, in my daily role are bravery and I think it's, you know, I learned how to be a leader here. I learned what New Creative Day was here. And I, you know, I think it really, it's a great. It gave me a great foundation of brand building, storytelling, relationship building, which I think is a huge piece of when I was an account person and now transitioned to marketing. I think it just, it really, it was the foundation of everything that I take with me today at Shark Ninja. And I have fond memories. We'll share after over a glass of wine.

[B]

There's a glass right there.

[G]

I know I'm the only one who brought it up here. What's up with this, guys?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why is nobody drunk?

[G]

I didn't say I was, but no, you know, I think, I think this is. It's just a really fun creative space where you can tell stories. And I think that that's a common thread between agency life and brand storytelling. And I think Ross could agree that that's really what it's all about. And I think I learned how to do that and how to identify insights behind people and where and how to authentically tell those stories. So. Yeah.

[B]

We'll be right back.

[A]

The Effies and System 1 have gotten together to create the Creative Dividend, a new book that brings together large scale creative measurement and effectiveness case evidence to demonstrate how creativity and media work best together. Rather than debating whether creativity or media matters more, the Creative Dividend unpacks how the two must work together to maximize effectiveness. The research introduces two tools to help marketers defend investment, improve work, and make advertising a more dependable driver of business growth. Get your free copy of this [e-mail] creative dividend that's system one. That's the number one, not the word system1group.com creative dividend want always on Brand Metrics that deliver Value to Stakeholders this episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that.

[B]

Companies pay $100,000 or more for brand.

[A]

Tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking out the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting, using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Check it [e-mail] that's gotracksuit.com Our tour is also brought to you by Ipsos Creative Excellence, the experts in using research to inspire and empower creativity. Every marketer knows the best creative work starts with a strong brief. Yet the reality is many briefs that brands give their agencies miss the mark. In fact, Ipsos found that only 5% of brand marketers say the quality of their briefs is really good. That's why Ipsos created Creative Fuel. Creative Fuel is strategy research designed to help brands ensure the messages in their brief are something both their audiences and their agencies can get excited about. With Creative Fuel, marketers can build confidence and buy in around the kind of simple, bold, empathetic strategies that inspire the caliber of work we're discussing today.

[B]

So if you want to start fueling.

[A]

Your next campaign with strategy that really moves the needle, check out Ipsos Creative Excellence and their Creative Fuel solution. More [e-mail] that's Ipsos I P S. So now back to the show.

[B]

Ross, how about you? Story from your time here did what was there like an individual who made a great impact on you and during that time that you were here, but more importantly, quite a few.

[C]

What?

[B]

What did you learn that's good? Tell me a story about it.

[F]

I don't know if I can be as eloquent as Gail here, but you know, I think what was really impressive about Arnold There are a couple things, obviously people, and so much of agencies are the ecosystem of humanity that exists out there and how people get along and how they build work. And as Sean was kind of getting into, Arnold is a place that's endured and it's done great work for a long time. And there's just something special about that that you take with you. Just little things of how people carry themselves or maybe how they finish a project or maybe how they check on someone. I remember that from my time here. And the other thing is, I think the moniker was Great Work Works. And I've been in a few agencies, but I really felt as a member of the strategy department, an equal to every department, whether it be creative or production or operations, that everybody was certainly bought in and it didn't have to be heavy on one area. I'll use strategies. It wasn't just great strategy, Carrion. It wasn't just creative or it wasn't just a great song that production found. And I really took that away that it is possible. And I love where you are now in terms of safe to be brave, because I do think that Arnold creates that environment to build great work. And it's a safe place not only for clients, but I think for people to work too. And in times like today, you really need that. So, yeah, obviously lots of people. I don't know if I could name one, but just I think the overall environment was impressive.

[D]

Bri is sitting right next to you. It sounds so easy to do.

[C]

It feels so obvious. I was going to interrupt because Fergus said that I could interrupt.

[F]

Yeah, please, please, please, go ahead, save me.

[B]

You can interrupt everybody except me.

[C]

And I don't. I don't want to gas Sean up. He's definitely not the most influential, but Sean said something like, really early on when we got these jobs, that kind of changed for me the way that I think I operate at Arnold, at least on this tour of duty. And like, I say it, we say it a lot. And he was like, you know what? We want to make good work. We don't want to have good meetings. We want to make good work. And I think that that ethos is just so true. And it guides, I think, the way that we show up, the things that we say, the conversations that we have, the pieces that we push. And like, to me, that is so embedded in this place and like, it just crystallized for me, like, the permission structure that kind of exists here. And I think that's what actually leads to good work.

[B]

So let's widen the lands Out a little bit and talk about Boston. Give me some examples of great work.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I'll give you Boston, not. Arnold and Gail and I were talking about this. We shared one, which was a monster one. When I grow up. When I grow up, I wanna file all day. I wanna claw my way up to middle management, be replaced on a whim. I wanna have a brown nose. I wanna be a yes man, yes woman. Yes, sir. Coming, sir. Anything for a raise, sir. When I grew up in race, grow up, I want to be underappreciated, be paid less for doing the same job.

[G]

I want to be forced into early retirement.

[E]

That's so good.

[C]

So good. It really. It just, like, it stands the test of time. Right. And I think for me, a characteristic of Boston work is kind of what you said, Sean, like a really high bar for great innocent insights, breakthrough, original thinking, but also excellent execution and craft because it's so often that things fall down, you know, that you have something that's beautiful and amazing, but just not that insightful or a great insight that, you know, the execution falls flat. And I think that the. The appreciation for those two things and honestly, the maniacal attention to detail on both ends of the spectrum is just, like, so true here. And I imagine in all of the work that everyone shows, you'll see that.

[B]

So who's driving that, though, in this market? You know, I mean, Gail, that was. That was a Mullen spot. Yep. Why did you like it? Why did you pick it?

[G]

I mean, a lot of. A lot of the reasons Bree said. I think, you know, one of the things I learned here at Arnold is if you unlock a consumer truth, you can tell that story in a very relevant, meaningful way. And I think that that's everything that that spot embodies, and it's. It does. It stands the test of time, no matter how many years pass. It's relatable, it's relevant. You can see yourself in it. It's approachable. And I think that that's so much of what brands do well today is really figure out ways to authentically storytell to the right audience. And I think that that just does that over and over and over again, no matter who you are, where you are, when you see it.

[C]

To answer your question, the who's driving that is, like, truly this whole room. Like, there. There's a. There's a thing in Boston where you're accountable to one another. Like, yes, it's competitive and, you know, yes, there's this. We pitch against each other or whatever, but like that, that that chair is here because things are. Are handed down because we have high expectations for ourselves and for each other, and we hold each other accountable.

[E]

I also think Boston is just. It's a very smart city. And I mean that literally and figuratively. If you think of Los Angeles and the west coast market, it's a little bit more emotional. It's a little bit more of a vibe, I think, that they're selling. It's a little more cinematic. You think of New York and that market, I think, is fast and it's energy and it's like culture of the moment. I don't say flash in a pan, but it's quick. Boston is incredibly clever. I think the writing in this city.

[B]

Is like, clever and smart and funny.

[E]

Clever is smart, yeah.

[F]

Witty.

[E]

It's less like slapstick. Ha ha, skittles kind of funny. Although that comes out of your.

[B]

Sometimes. Yeah, but that's pretty wacky shit. I mean, you guys do some of that stuff too, for sure.

[E]

But I think, like, as a city, like, this is also the hub of education. We've got Harvard, we've got MIT, we've got BC. I mean, there's like 100 something colleges and universities in New England, which is staggering. I think smart people stay here and the market sort of like feeds that, which is really interesting. We talk about how bringing in new talent from outside of the market is a little bit tricky here. It becomes a little bit like incestuous, where people go from Mullen to Arnold to Hill and around. And once in a while we'll get a disruptor that brings something a little bit different. But a lot of people come here to do really smart work.

[B]

And so when you started Colossus, what were. What was your ambition personally and for the. For the agency? And do you define it as an agency?

[E]

Yeah, we define it as an agency. It's funny, the word. The word agency we were talking about, there's two meanings to agency, right? You are a service, right, that provides something like something specific. But you're also like. The word agency is an intervention, right? We are there for perspective. We provide agency. We wanted to take the best things that we had seen in this market and do it a little bit differently, with more of a design focus, more of like a gang mentality, something a little bit smaller. We like to say that we champion the business of creativity, where we're not doing things just to be funny or just to be colorful. We're doing it with an insight and a business truth in mind and something that's a little bit like, you know, provocative and toothy. And I think there were some incredible agencies, you know, rest in peace to Modernista, to Barbarian Group. Some really incredible agencies that came out of this city and we missed them. And there's a similar ethos, I think, to what we're building at Colossus.

[B]

Is it good for Boston that this sort of shrinkage is happening amongst agencies?

[D]

No, no, I don't think so. But I don't know that it's unique to us. Right. I think the industry is in flux and we all know that. I think the short answer is, is the most concise answer. As, as it relates to talent attraction, as it relates to sort of competition, it's not good. Like what we need is a place where someone can have a 30 year, 35 year career here and have options. So no, the short answer is it's not good.

[B]

So when you're attracting talent, creative talent. Today on the show we've talked a lot about the next generation of talent and what they're good at and how it's different than people who have been in for a while. How do you see it? What do you want in somebody coming out of school or coming in who are younger?

[D]

I mean, unfortunately, I think we all know that like the, the lead time for someone to get it is next to zero now. And that was not how it was 25 years ago. There was more space, there was more time. You could have juniors, you could expect them to work on a brief for a little while, have a few ideas, but if they don't come through, that's okay. You had other teams working on it. We don't really. Even big places like Arnold, we don't really have that anymore.

[B]

You need that lead time to train the lead time to come up with ideas.

[D]

Yes, like time, time, budget for teams like anybody who comes and joins Arnold, like, I'm expecting them to be valuable day one. And I don't think that was true 25 years ago in a way that was much more nurturing of young people. So I would say what we look for is people who are ready to make things right away and ready to say yes and try right away. And that, you know, I can understand. I think that like the contract between employee and employer was clearer then because I think the future was clear and the upside was clear. And so I don't blame a young person for being like, is this a good path for me? Where do I end up in 20 years? Because I can't give them like, oh no, you're going to be, you know, you'll be driving a Porsche. Like that's not a thing anymore the way that it was. So I don't blame people for questioning. Is the juice worth the squeeze? I think you have to love making stuff, and I think you have to love being with your friends making stuff. So if you don't have that, the math might not be there for you. You now, and that's okay. Like, it's not a get rich quick scheme anymore. It's not like a chill job where you think a little bit and everybody anymore. It's like a working as a cco. I'm writing and working all the goddamn time.

[B]

The good news is, what does that do for. I mean, there's a lot of students here with us tonight. What's the lesson?

[E]

You guys are.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Great job, Sean.

[D]

Who wants to work at Arnold, huh?

[C]

Great job.

[B]

I think, actually, I think they all left after you started talking.

[D]

That's right. It's better now than later.

[B]

But my question is this. What's the responsibility now of schools? Are they delivering what the industry now needs? And let's put the AI conversation aside.

[D]

I think there can be a delay. I think they can. I don't blame those schools for being reactionary to what wins, if that makes sense. What gets into shows and being like, this is what agencies are looking for. That's not crazy. But I do think sometimes there's a bit of a delay. And so I get books that are about, what, one in Cannes four years ago or something? I'm not sure. You know, I would actually love to hear what Travis thinks because sometimes I tend to have a specific point of view on that. Like, if you're in my world for the last 18 years and you've been writing comedy dialogue scripts, like, by the thousands, it's a very specific skill that ad schools do not do well or at all. And so my answer is often, like, not really. But I think there are other places probably where what they're delivering is perfect.

[E]

I think it's a really tricky time to be a junior. You touched on it, but it's so hard. Even with remote work, the ability to be in office and to absorb and learn from people around you has been taken away from a lot of kids. And at the same time, the expectation has been raised. So you have a lower learning curve and higher expectations. Very hard for them to meet. I also think the most valuable people that we have are hyphenates. Like, we've got incredible writers that can also edit or we've got a creative technologist who's a brilliant designer. And to us being a smaller agency, that's incredibly beneficial. So when we get books, a, that's great to see that you have, you know, a wealth of hats that you can wear and a skill set that you can bring to the table. On the flip side, sometimes I look at a book and I'm like, I don't know what the hell you do. Like, I don't know where to put you, but I know I like you. I can see that, like, the thinking is really good, but how you fit into the agency and contribute from the get go is really hard to pinpoint.

[B]

So, Ross, client side LEGO group. What do they want from people that have a background in. No, I mean, nobody wants somebody with a background in advertising alone. But however you want to label that.

[F]

It'S an incredibly pertinent conversation. I mean, it's difficult. We struggle with the same things too. Right. Schools aren't necessarily preparing kids or maybe they've got an education that's got a dictionary by an advertising book. Right. It's not real world skills. We've tried a variety of things of partnering with schools or different types of programs to kind of help people get the training that they need. But it's, I mean, it's a challenge. I have a few juniors on my team and I look, I never would have been hired in the way that they had today. A lot of the advice that I had on coming up, it's just not relevant anymore. Right. Or even the era of networking, all that, it's just not possible in the same way. So I think it's scary. But I am excited because I think it's going to push kids or young people to start creating as that was shared or just starting to work on work and put it out there and take more risk. So I do agree that this shift is difficult, but I think we're in an era of reinvention for creativity. And there's this kind of upward scaling that's coming of agencies. And I think people and I think it will always find a way and break through. I think we're trying to be more accessible to young folks coming in and change how we recruit or change what's open to them. It may not be the traditional route that gets them in and that's okay. And we understand they're not going to have the experience. We're looking for talent and how they might solve problems and that's what we have to look for.

[B]

So here, Gail, here's the big Question. So you're going to get the big question. So here's the interesting flip that's happening, each of you. Shark Ninja internal agency. Right. We have a lot of people here from Staples internal agency, LEGO Group, internal agency. What's the problem that the internal agency is able to solve that led to this happening?

[G]

I think when I look at Sharkninja specifically, I think there's an invaluable opportunity in the way we work, which is bringing everybody upstream from the beginning. So what I mean by that is if we're developing a product, we don't just hand the product to our creatives and say, here's a brief go. They're at the table when the product is being developed. They're at the table on prototype one, prototype two, at the consumer testing. And so there is an unlock of storytelling that happens at that product development stage, which really allows the creative team and the marketing teams to start to build stories and sort of, you know, play with different ways and different insights to bring the story to life. And I think having that exposure full scale across the entire product life cycle is really valuable. When we find partners, I'm in partnerships, and when I go find who the right partner is for us, it unlocks a little bit of an insight where I say, that's really interesting. This product, our CryoMask, for example, go buy it. It's awesome. That's why I look like.

[B]

This is the new beauty product line. Hair care.

[G]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, no, not hair care, skin care. It's a LED mask.

[B]

Oh, love it.

[G]

Yeah, this is Botox, but that's different.

[B]

It still looks good.

[G]

Yeah, but, you know, when we were developing that product, we said, okay, we need to go after somebody who's a problematic skincare person. And we found Alix Earle and we said, she has all the girlies following her. She's known for problematic skin care. We unlocked this mask with her at the helm and it just, it took off. And so I think it's really about having creativity and marketing way, way in with engineers and product development to find that unique way to tell those stories.

[B]

But I gotta guess that if Progressive was here, they would say, well, yeah, we also have Sean and Bree involved, but your brand decided to take it all internal. So. And, you know, some people say, well, being internal is great for the first year, then the second year you're beginning to burn out a little bit, maybe less effective. But you could say the same thing about somebody in an agency. Yeah, but I'm just trying to understand if you have A perspective on beyond the fact that you can be integrated, does it make the work better as a result, or does it just make the creative more informed?

[G]

I think both. I mean, and I think you could argue either perspective. I think there's a lot of that. But we're also. And I think. I think one word that was left off of the list when we were talking about Boston is grit. And I think something about Sharkninja is there's a lot of grit and a motto is, it's okay to fail. If you fail, that's a win because you learn something and you can keep going. So I think there's just a lot of opportunity to challenge and play around and just understand that you're pulling things from everyone. I'm having conversations with so many different people than I had on the agency side, which is great, but on the agency side, you're harnessing it in a different way. But I think at Sharkninja or maybe even client side, you have access to just a broader scale of the picture. And I think that that really helps develop the story.

[B]

So let's play. I want to play a snippet of the spot because I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like the Shark Ninja work has become extremely elevated in the last year or two, so. And I think it's got a lot to do with what you're doing. Right. So let's play a clip from Shark Ninja.

[A]

Hey, Kevin.

[B]

I hate where new knife is.

[E]

Yeah, I knew that for quite some time.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So one thing you should know about.

[B]

This neighborhood, we basically share everything.

[A]

What's that? Little welcome gift.

[D]

Shove it.

[C]

Yeah, of course.

[E]

Thank you.

[B]

You're welcome. Anything you need, you let me know.

[D]

You're probably gonna need something before I.

[B]

Will, so you let me know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it does seem. Has there been this sort of recommitment to building brand at Shark Ninja, and if so, why?

[G]

Yeah, I think one of the things I love about what I do now is because it has such a thread of what I did here at Arnold, and that is building brands and just promoting brand stories. And I think for a long time at Sharkninja we are a very product focused company. Product is at the heart of what we do. But I think last year we had an entrance into Hollywood, I like to say, but maybe I'm giving myself a little bit of credit. But. But with F1, we were a sponsor of that movie. We were fully integrated into it. And that was really the first time at Sharkninja we said we need to invest in building this Shark Ninja brand. And so I think with this work that you just saw, and a lot of what hopefully you'll see that's coming from us is there's a real focus on us to build and tell that Shark Ninja overall narrative. We've told the story of Shark home, Shark beauty and Ninja kitchen. But I think there's so much more to to who we are as an overarching brand. And my roots here at Arnold built my love of storytelling and the opportunity to do that at Sharkninja is amazing. And we do have really great partners who we can sort of craft stories around their personal brands. And so it's a really fun opportunity to grow.

[B]

So Ross, the same question for you regarding in house agencies. What's the value of an in house agency as opposed to a outhouse agency?

[F]

It's similar to Gail and I'll admit we're full of a lot of external agency folks, right. Who bring that expertise in. But there are advantages. So similar to maybe Sharkninja, our product development and marketing actually sit in the same group. Right. So right off the bat, we're already working together. We have an opportunity to be deep in the data, years of data. We've got the budget and then we also have internal marketing which allows us to move pretty quick for what we need to do. And we're often working far ahead. But what I will say is it is opportunities to partner with the right people because we recognize we don't have the talent in house. And probably similar, a little too much of the in house Kool Aid. Right? We need to know what's happening in the world. And they're incredibly talented creators, agencies, creators out there in the world that we should be tapping into. So it's really about the best of both. We can bring the internal brand knowledge, but maybe we can find a partner that can help us unlock that in a different way. And what we really try to do is it's solving business problems. We're incredibly focused. I know the key business problems that we need to solve this year, next year, the next five, 10 years, we can start on that and advance and build that into not only our business plans, but our marketing plans as well. So it's just a little bit of oversight for what we're doing and it gives us maybe a little bit more holistic view on how to approach everything.

[B]

Okay, Bri, tell Ross why he's wrong.

[C]

I mean, I think there's a role for the best of both, but like, you know, there's a Different dynamic when you work for the same company than your outside perspective. And like it comes back to that thing that, that Sean said a long time ago that sticks with me. We want to make great work, not have great meetings sometimes in large companies. And by the way, one of the reasons that I think big successful brands, it's a sign of maturity to have an internal agency. I don't, I don't think any ad agency thinks that that's entirely wrong. Like it's not one or the other. There's, there's some necessity, there's cost models, there's all of those things. But I think when it comes to big ideas, when it comes to, comes to different thinking, when it comes to an injection, when it comes to somebody that can say, call your baby ugly a little bit like that outside thinking is really important. And not for nothing, if I were you guys, I would want someone that I can kind of like boss around like an agency, you know what I mean?

[G]

You would let us boss you around.

[C]

HR doesn't, doesn't manage your agency, you.

[E]

Know what I mean?

[F]

Good point.

[C]

But it's like a real thing, like so much of our business is communication and how we choose to communicate, how we choose to debate and how we choose to say no, I don't think that. And keep work sharp. And I think that there's a lot of value in some separation certainly at certain points.

[E]

I think also like cross category insights are really important. We talk about perspective, that's one thing. But we may learn something working on a wine brand that's totally applicable to salad dressing. We may learn something working on a carburetor and that's totally applicable to a SaaS client. I think because we are dealing with different demographics and different cultural insights that's incredibly beneficial to an in house team that may be working on one thing all day. I also just want to give a shout out to the in house teams where I think the quality of in house work has changed dramatically in the last decade. It used to be that if someone said they were going in house, it was like, oh fuck man, I'm sorry. Like that, that was where the end of your career.

[B]

Yeah, it was like walking in the prison door, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

See you guys later.

[E]

But the industry has changed so much talent, especially with the consolidation of all these agencies and holding companies. Like there are really talented people in house that are building interesting things. So I think it's a much different ball game than it used to be.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I think the quality of work is amazingly better than how it used to be. I mean, I mean, here. I mean, Liberty Mutual is all in house too. I mean, it's, it's, it's the thing to do, right? It's where there's a. I wouldn't say.

[D]

The thing to do. Little strong. It's a thing to do.

[B]

It's a thing to do.

[F]

As a strategist, I will just share. I found it incredibly rewarding. I was very scared because I loved external agency life. I enjoyed pitching sometimes, but the opportunity to go on different clients and apply that knowledge trap, I found that invaluable as a strategist. So I personally worried of like, one brand forever, but I found it rewarding to carry problems through over time has been something that, you know, it's. It doesn't end, it doesn't always go away until you really solve it. So that's, that's one thing that I found really applicable of an internal agency.

[B]

So let's, let's. So let's zoom out a little bit and talk about strategy and creative relationship. Bri, how has that relationship changed in the last few years?

[C]

I mean, it used to be sequential, it used to be linear, and now it's all fucked up in the worst ways and the best ways. You know what I mean? Like, I'm all up in Sean's business and he's all up in mine, and I don't think that there's an alternative or I can't possibly imagine one.

[B]

Why is it all fucked up and messed up? I mean, not fucked up. That's not what you're suggesting. It's just.

[C]

No, no, it's all, it's all, it's all. It's all jumbled up. Like it's all. You know what I mean? Like, every. So much has changed. I think that, you know, timelines have changed, budgets have changed, the expectations. How you follow culture has changed. The things that we're making and the way that we have to develop them. I think that, you know, it used to be that it was like, all right, here's a big idea. Great, we've got it. Now let's take the next six months and go and produce. Ta da. And now it's like, all right, well, we have an idea.

[D]

Now.

[C]

How does that idea manifest in the world? How do we create the system around that? Okay, great. We've been, you know, four things have changed since then. And, you know, there's. There's seven new political dramas that mean we actually can't do that. So we need to go to another Idea, we need to pivot, but we don't really have time to redo the strategy, so we kind of need to do it on the fly. So I just think that there's like more synergy because of the environment around us. And I think there's evidence that it makes the work better and it certainly makes work life better.

[G]

I want to say how refreshing it is to hear you say that being inside agency walls, because as someone who's outside in the client side walls, the same problems exist. And I think it just, you know, I often find myself saying, am I crazy? What's like, is this process wrong? How do I fix this? And I think I just am here hearing you say that and I'm like, this is very refreshing because we have the same challenges. It's like, okay, I have this great idea. Can I go over here and talk to creative about it or do we have to pivot over here and someone said something bad in the headlines and how do we pivot? And I think it's a very relatable thing that exists everywhere. And as somebody who is an ex agency person who is also like, what's this client side going to be like? It's the same. And I think that's a universal truth, which is refreshing to hear.

[C]

I also think that, like, one of the. Sean and I had this conversation today. Sometimes there's great strategy that just like, doesn't produce great creative ideas. And sometimes great creative ideas come from like, seemingly like nowhere or the corner of a brief for, or a piece of the strategy.

[B]

Why does it, why does a great strategy not lead to great creative work?

[C]

Because sometimes you. Because sometimes it, the strategy isn't for strategy's sake. We don't make decks. I mean, we make a lot of decks.

[B]

That's one of our problems.

[C]

My team all the time like that, like the work product is our product. Like, we're all making that work. So, you know, you can, you can put up, you can go buy an outfit that might look great on you and it doesn't look great on you. It's just, you know, it's just that that's, sometimes that's what happens. You have something that sounds brilliant and, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's lackluster from a creative perspective. It doesn't have the tension, doesn't have the.

[B]

So it's a creator problem. Not necessarily.

[C]

Absolutely. Always a creative problem.

[B]

Right, right. I kid.

[C]

I kid. So you. Sometimes the strategy's wrong and sometimes there's something better and if you're not open to that and you're not flexible, you're. You're leaving the best work on the table. So it's just, like, insane to me to think it would work any other.

[D]

Way, because what we're trying to do is we're. I mean, the whole thing is like trying to map and dissect and create a process for ideas, and ideas are not that dissectible. Right. So if you take. I mean, if you take our Dr. Rick work and you go, well, it's a good insight and it's a good execution. But, like, parsing those things out or imagining that's linear is not productive. It's the entirety of.

[B]

Of the thing.

[D]

Like, we all love that as an insight because the work is good. We all like the work being really good because it delivers on an insight. And so it's just.

[B]

It's a very important point because I think a lot of strategists come up with a sense that the work needs to reflect the strategy, and it can burn them out because they push that too hard.

[D]

I just think it has to be two ways. And I think the best.

[B]

It has to be that you have to inspire the best work out of the people you have access to.

[D]

Well, but if. Yes, sure. But I think if Travis comes in and says, I have a fragment that's a creative fragment, let's talk about how that becomes the solution of the problem. That's an equally valid beginning. And you have to be able to do both. Like, you have to be able to say, hey, I have this thing that I think will speak to this audience. And it's a nugget of a creative thing that's just as valid a beginning. And then to explain why it all works, we can have it be a linear process or have it be strategy that leads to creative, but ultimately, like, there's just. No, you can't pull those things apart. And how. That's how ideas work. Yeah, Ideas aren't like a strategy. And then the things that. The execution of that. That's not an idea. That's how we tried to draw a schematic for how an idea is created. Yeah, but the idea is all of them at once, like, inseparable.

[C]

And like, you're. For the most part, we're trying to make people feel something that's not linear, that's not obvious. Like, strategy is. Is. Is the tool in our toolbox to get there. You know, there. There was a time in this business when. When strategy wasn't a thing or a Named thing. It wasn't a department. We said, okay, there's actually some value there. Spending some time thinking about this. But at least creative strategy isn't an end in and of itself. Like you have to be in pursuit of the idea and the strategy is the tool to get that idea into market. Like our job as strategists isn't done until we've made something and put it into the world and seen how it delivers. And I think when you start thinking that way, it isn't, it's naturally, it's not sequential. It doesn't really matter when you come in.

[B]

Right, right. Travis, anything you'd add to that?

[E]

Yeah, I really like the non linear discussion because I do think sometimes it works backwards. And in the same sense, I think sometimes the strategy is the product more than the creative. And I think because things are so fragmented, you started talking about this. The strategic knowledge that moves its tentacles deeper into data and cultural trends and even media plans. Sometimes it knows more than the creative and sometimes the creative is built more on gut. And there's something to be said for both. I think the best work happens when those things are married. But it really is art and less science. I think it works forwards and backwards.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Ross, anything you'd add to that?

[F]

Yeah, I love this conversation. I mean, where I'm thinking is it's harder to get ideas out today. I mean, the media ecosystem and the share of attention is so fleeting. I love the notion of starting with the shred of an idea. I think you have to and just see where it goes and then find a way to get it into culture or to have that emotional resonance that you're seeking. It's so hard and there are just so many avenues and to do a traditional campaign, it's almost dead as soon as it starts. If you take that approach, the fleeting.

[C]

Nature is like super interesting. Like, you know, we're lucky at Arnold to work on a number of things that are really long standing, but that's really hard to keep that fresh, to keep that insightful. Like sometimes it would be a lot easier to just start with a new idea. It's a really tight box of strategy and creative. And I think that you like, you've gotta be a, you've gotta be the dog that hangs onto that bone and you have to stick with that. And I think it's like, it's so interesting to observe that versus like a PNC that's, you know, I was going to say a new idea that's just been birthed, but that was going to get weird, but you know what I mean? Like, like a new positioning and a whole new thing. Like, it's just a different dynamic. And I think, I think that's part of strategy and creative as well is like being able to look each other in the eye and be like, what are we doing here? Like, what's, what's the task at hand? What's the right tool set that we need to, like you say in, get the best work out of the team, do the best work for the client, figure out, like, what talent to task we need to put there. Because those are really different challenges.

[B]

So, Sean, when we talked earlier this week, you mentioned that there was a point when you came on board when the quality of the work. Because in my opinion, Progressive is doing some of the best work in the country.

[D]

Right.

[B]

You were talking about the fact that there was a change in ambition, that there was this desire to do great, new, great work that led to all of this body of work that we've seen. There was a story behind it. If I'm remembering that right.

[D]

Well, I mean, if this isn't what you're saying, then forgive me, okay? I think that when I. I've told this story a bunch, so forgive me, I'm repeating myself, getting old. But like when I took this job at Arnold, I always wanted to work at Arnold. It was a Boston creative. And when they offered me, not this job, cco, this job, first job at Arnold, they offered me a job on an account and they mentioned the name and I hadn't heard of it and I had to look it up. It was Progressive Insurance to give you context about how much that brand has changed. So I would say that when I learned about that company, when I started on that business, it was way bigger than I thought. Part of that's about not being in Massachusetts for very long at that particular moment. That's fine. It's way bigger and incredibly well run, like an incredibly successful, wonderfully managed, great company. That's kind of last weakness, in my opinion was marketing and they kind of knew it. So I do think the timing, like I could take credit and be like, oh, it's because I was there that this happened. But really I think it was like all the infrastructure was there and the last thing for them was they were like, we probably have to start marketing ourselves like a grown up, because we're grown up in all these other ways. So I do think part of what's Arnold and Progressive's journey was just about that timing. Like it's A was an incredibly well run ready for primetime business who just hadn't cracked the marketing thing yet. And to be honest, if you know them, it makes sense because they're, they're sort of the Moneyball insurance provider, like incredibly efficient, math oriented, data oriented test and learn. Like just you could understand why they were like the missing ingredient. It's like my jokes doesn't necessarily, it's not the most likely thing that they needed. But yes, I did think at some point they grew up and again I was a, you know, a mid level writer at that point. So it's hardly my, hardly my influence that did that. But yeah, I think there was a moment in time where this was sort of the last. And they actually at that point I think up their game on who they hired internally to lead that. And then Arnold was their partner throughout that fortunately.

[B]

And did they, did they invest more as a result of creating a campaign and a character in flow? Because the flow was the original sort of.

[D]

We had done a few other things but before that Valvoni could tell because I wasn't on it, but. But yes, but basically it's a very early progressive campaign. I think they're very value oriented. So their spend grew as they tested and learned how effective what they were spending on was doing. So it has grown a lot, but it's very, very. It wasn't a leap of faith. They were going, holy crap, this is working, let's do more.

[B]

So we're going to do a round table. Last posed question to you guys. We're going to go around real quick because we just have two minutes left. So given all the opportunity we have as a creative industry, and I mean that sincerely, I do believe even in the age of AI, the best ideas are still going to win. You just have to be in the business of creating the best ideas. So given the opportunities we have as an industry, what should we be doing less of? What should we be doing more of? So less of more of. And I'll start if I can with Travis.

[E]

Oh, good. I think we need to do more listening. I think as the speed picks up and the budgets come down and like media fragments, there is so much shit going on that I think we often jump to filling that punch list and to like, what's the idea? What's the strategy like? It's like, like you're moving so fast that sometimes we don't listen to our clients. I think the answer is often there for the taking and I think we could be better listeners just as an industry, as a Whole. And me personally, I'm just joking. I also think, like, one thing we should start doing more is inverting the way that we present creative work. I think it used to be TV led. It was like, here's two TV spots, three billboards. And we called them extensions. Like, the extensions are often the idea now that are supported by tv. So that would be my two.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Bri. Then I'll go to a. Gail, I.

[C]

Sometimes think of strategy as an art of, like, what you don't do. So I think we should be more reductive and I think we should make more choices. I think sometimes, particularly on the agency side, you're like, oh, right, and here's the four other things that were on the list. So quick, get them in the deck. Like, I think we should be more. More assertive and more reductive. And that's kind of a more and less. Isn't it weird? So I guess, I guess less of what we should do.

[B]

You were just being reductive.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Less of what we should do. You know, I think, I know that we talked about things being challenging for junior talent, but like, I have an amazing team of junior and mid level and senior talent. And I think if we step back and I, like, this is like, advice for myself. This is therapy. If we step back and let other people do things, they often do it better than you. So I think that we should do more of that or do less of that. I've completely messed up your whole thing, but you get what I'm saying. You get what I'm saying? We should get out of the way more often.

[B]

Gail.

[G]

I have a similar answer where I think my response to both is the same. And I think what we, I think do more of react at the speed of culture. I think there is a lot of letting culture lead the creative storytelling which is successful. I think there's a lot of it that isn't. And so I think being less reactive but also being more reactive in a strategic, thoughtful way is what I would say.

[B]

Okay, Ross.

[F]

I think we should stop worrying about AI so much. It's like the sky is falling. It's not going to replace humanity. It will change things, but we will adapt. And right now it kind of serves itself. And it's a great tool, but that's what it is. It's a tool. And great writing will always be great writing. Excellent art direction that has that eye or that cinematography will cut through. So just, you know, it's not the end of it. Things will change. Yes. But we can adapt. I want to see more of or do more. I want to see more weird things. I'm going to be honest. More risks, more mistakes. Things that like, don't make sense. And obviously AI can do some of that, but that's different. But I want to see things, things that still touch on humanity, that are willing to get people's attention. I think it's harder in this day and age to have ideas that stand out. So yeah, just take more risks. Get a little more weird with the work that we make.

[B]

Yeah, Sean. To close us out.

[G]

Bring us home.

[D]

Oh boy.

[E]

Better be good.

[D]

I don't like my odds. I think less of. I think one of the hardest things to do in this business is meet people where they are with our advertising. And I think that when you have a meeting with 50 people and there's all sorts of paper and opinions and process and briefs and re briefs and whatever else, it has this way of elevating our sense of importance about things and it makes our ability to connect through work lesser. So I think we have to figure out how to have a process that takes the process of making things seriously, but that doesn't elevate the stakes for your audience because they're not actually elevated. We make a lot of self important, overly complicated shit and a lot of that is because we take our jobs so seriously and there's so much process and money and care going towards that. So I wish we could figure out how to make work that meets people where it actually lives in their lives. And then I guess the do more is the fallout of that, which is basically what Ross said, which is like we should make simpler, more fun, more entertaining, more impactful shit. And we spend so much time elevating the problem we're trying to solve that nothing can live up to it. And we don't make the little things that can fit into your life. That I think is the bedrock of this business, which is making simple things that find you in the places you are and connect with you in a way that's appropriate to how you're living your life. A lot of times, you know, we, we have cracker brands saying I'm going to change. Change your world or our, our goal is world peace. Like we got to get out of that practice because it's making us irrelevant.

[B]

Thank you to everybody around this table and everybody around this room. It's been brilliant. Boston, thank you all.

[C]

Thank you. Ferguson.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you for your time. I know it's tough to spend two hours after the office closes and I really do genuinely appreciate everybody coming out to spend time with us. And we'll see everybody on the next episode. Good night.