Live from Deutsch in LA: Those Moments of Magic

Summary

Podcast Summary

On Strategy Showcase

Host: Fergus O’Carroll
Episode: Live from Deutsch in LA: Those Moments of Magic
Date: November 16, 2025

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Overview

In this special episode, recorded live at Deutsch in Los Angeles, the On Strategy Showcase presents a roundtable discussion with some of LA's top advertising strategists and creatives. The group digs into the elusive "magic moments"—those creative epiphanies and strategic unlocks that lead to truly standout campaigns. With real campaign case studies and lively anecdotes, the conversation explores collaborative processes, agency culture shifts, and what it takes to repeatedly create breakthrough work.

Panelists:

• John Deschner (Head of Brand, Maximum Effort)
• Ryan Lehrer (Co-Chief Creative Officer, Deutsch LA)
• Jill Bergeson (Chief Strategic Officer, TBWA\Chiat\Day LA)
• Jason Carley (Executive Creative Director, Artists Equity)
• Amanda Shapiro (EVP Group Strategy Director, Deutsch LA)

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Path Into Advertising & Early Inspirations

• Many guests fell into advertising from creative or unconventional backgrounds—references to TV’s "Thirtysomething," dabbling in writing, and accidental first jobs.
• Jill Bergeson: Inspired by the Nike "Instant Karma" ad—“I want to be able to do something like that.” [08:35]
• Ryan Lehrer: Started at Chiat\Day as a receptionist, built his book through foosball games with founders of what became Omelet Agency. [11:29]

2. Finding and Enabling ‘Magic Moments’ in Creative Work

• Magic or epiphany moments are rare but pivotal.
• Teams brought 2–3 examples of these moments from their careers to discuss live.
• “There’s not an exact way of finding them or discovering them, but when they happen, they make everything we do just feel really great.” — Host [06:00]

3. Preferences and Habits in Creative Process

• Early in careers, many panelists were “isolators,” believing the best work happened solo. Now almost all embrace collaboration.
  • Amanda Shapiro: “I used to be an isolator...now, I fully believe in collaboration.” [13:35]
  • Jill Bergeson: “Google Docs put a real end to all this...you can’t hide anymore.” [14:12]
• Preferred work environments range from soft chairs at dawn to team whiteboards and long walks.
  • Amanda: “I boot up at like 6am...if I really need to concentrate, I go to a comfy chair, shoes off.” [13:35, 14:54]

4. The Role of Collaboration

• Collaboration means sharing early, being vulnerable, and encouraging stupid ideas.
  • Jill: “Put ourselves out there and be vulnerable...just get it out there and talk about it.” [16:57]
  • Amanda: “It takes the pressure off always having to have the answer...we just have to get to the answer.” [18:00]
• At Maximum Effort, the strategy process is quick, outcome-focused, and “light on insight.”
  • John Deschner: “We don’t write briefs...we just get all the information together, mush it down to something you can communicate in 3–4 minutes.” [19:19]
  • Decision-making is much like a writers’ room—large groups brainstorming, filtering, and distilling to actionable creative seeds.

5. Being Interesting vs. Being ‘Right’

• “It’s more important to be interesting than right.” [21:09]
  • Maximum Effort often targets emotions broadly (e.g., for virality) rather than narrow audience segments.
  • Celebrity involvement is a lever, not a guarantee (e.g., Ryan Reynolds’ decreasing on-camera presence). [23:03]

6. Unlocking Ideas & Overcoming Brief Fatigue

• Panelists use tricks like “the worst idea” game and intentionally pushing ideas to extremes, then dialing them back.
  • Ryan Lehrer: “Come up with the worst idea, and sometimes you can reverse-engineer to a good idea.” [25:11]
  • Brainstorming is likened to Battleship—finding “hits” through testing a wide range of creative concepts.

7. The Right Strategy: Bridge, Not Filter

• Strategy should enable, not limit, creativity.
  • Amanda: “The role of strategy is not to cancel the idea, but to make it on strategy...build the bridge.” [30:29]
  • Early, iterative collaboration between strategists and creatives is critical—“He talks in ideas, I talk in strategy.” — Amanda Shapiro [31:45]

8. Facilitating Participation—Introverts Welcome

• Remote/async tools like Zoom chat and Slack help introverts contribute without public pressure.
  • John: “You just have to multi-thread so it’s not down to who’s loudest in the room.” [37:02]
  • Set expectations that early ideas don’t have to be ‘good’—just get them out to be improved by the group.

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Memorable Campaign Case Studies

1. Astronomer – Gwyneth Paltrow Fastvertising [39:19]

• A B2B company embroiled in an unexpected scandal after their CEO was caught on a Kiss Cam. With the world watching, Maximum Effort is brought in for a creative solution.
• Within 48 hours, they craft a satirical but innocent video “from” Astronomer, featuring Gwyneth Paltrow as a spokesperson, leveraging Ryan Reynolds’ network for speed and access.
  • “There are 99 ways to do this wrong, and one to do it right. You need to reclaim this moment.” — John Deschner [41:03]
• The entire campaign is earned media—no spend. “That video had more impressions than the Deadpool and Wolverine trailer.” — John Deschner [45:14]
• Approach: React with honesty, cleverness, and a sense of innocence.
  • “It needs to be really innocent and naive because these guys are data dorks.” — John Deschner [41:46]

2. Snapple—“Shoulding All Over Ourselves” [47:24]

• The team sought to revitalize Snapple for Gen-Z/younger New Yorkers, surrounded by hyper-functional beverage competition.
• The unlock: People feel guilty about not being productive during afternoon breaks (“I should be working out, I should be productive, I should be drinking water...”).
  • Amanda Shapiro: “The brief was: We’re shoulding all over ourselves. And Snapple can be that refreshing taste of freedom.” [47:43]
• Campaign pokes fun at functional beverages—celebrating enjoyment for enjoyment’s sake.
  • “You know what’s refreshing? A drink that actually tastes good.” — Snapple ad [52:39]

3. Bud Light—Swear Jar [53:08]

• The brief: “People want it.” (not much to work with)
• Epiphany: In riffing mundane ideas, the notion of a “Swear Jar” in an office—fines for swearing used to buy Bud Light—instantly unlocked a flurry of vignettes that “practically wrote themselves.” [55:36]
  • “The moment he said Swear Jar, we were just like, that’s it.” — Jason Carley [56:06]
• Funny, relatable, and true to brand, but initially undervalued by the client—languished until it became the standout “bait” for a failed corporate platform. Later, its creative excellence was widely recognized.

4. Twitch—“Together For Whatever” [60:07]

• Brand struggled with internal alignment, varied employee/creator definitions.
• Jill: The epiphany came when describing hosting for her daughter’s friends: “You just roll the ball out and get out of the way.”
  • Led to a brand platform around the idea of Twitch as a digital playground—“Together for whatever.”
  • “It really helped us expand what we were talking about.” — Jill Bergeson [63:52]

5. Dr. Pepper – Fansville [64:23]

• After the long-running “Larry Culpepper” phase, the challenge was to create sustained, episodic relevance in college football.
• The unlock: Focusing on the drama of “the stands” (fans), not “the field” (players).
  • “The strategy unlock was: Gatorade is for the field, Dr. Pepper is for the stands.” — Ryan Lehrer [65:07]
• Fans are “crazier” than the players—so Fansville is a sitcom-like universe for fan stories, with the brand at the heart of their rituals.
  • “Once we had that unlock about the drama being in the stands, it just, it untaps so many stories...” — Ryan Lehrer [70:08]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We don’t write briefs... It’s more like, get all the information together, distill it quickly, and then mush it down to something you can communicate in 3 or 4 minutes.”
  — John Deschner [19:19]

• “It’s more important to be interesting than right.”
  — Repeat from previous guest, endorsed by panel [21:09]

• “The role of strategy is not to cancel the idea, but to make it on strategy... to build the bridge.”
  — Amanda Shapiro [30:29]

• “I’d rather have a clear strategy... Now we’re looking at convenience with this product, now, in this year, with whatever’s going on in culture.”
  — Jason Carley [59:13]

• “You want your brief to be showing, right?”
  — Ryan Lehrer [77:45]

• “Too much time and too much money ruins everything... Sometimes mashing yourself into crazy constraints is what’s needed.”
  — John Deschner [77:56]

• “The most dangerous thing to do is be safe... The risk is not getting noticed.”
  — Ryan Lehrer & Host [89:28, 91:01]

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Panel Advice: “More Of, Less Of” Rapid Round

• Amanda Shapiro: “More reading, talking, connecting. Less focus on the problem—look adjacent and at the peripheries; connections come from unexpected places.” [74:10]
• Jill Bergeson: “More IRL stuff—get out of the scroll/algorithm. Less time on AI/ChatGPT; original inputs matter.” [75:03]
• Jason Carley: “Not every strategy has to be lofty—sometimes clarity and simplicity win. Less strategy as filter; more as bridge.” [75:48]
• John Deschner: “Less time and money per idea; more scrappiness, more joy. Don’t always try to make things bigger; constraints force creativity.” [77:56]
• Ryan Lehrer: “More entertaining, less advertising. Act like a fan, not a brand. If you’re interrupting, at least make it fun.” [80:54]

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Audience Q&A Highlights

Q1: How do you find magic moments on long-running/established campaigns?

• Identify shifts in culture that allow you to refresh the strategy in new ways. Fansville succeeds because it’s seasonal and adapts to real trends in college football. [82:07–84:46]

Q2: What makes a good strategist?

• Curiosity, taste, the ability to make strategy useful and actionable, clear writing, and understanding people/insights—less pontification, more practical impact. [86:22–88:07]

Q3: How do you sell clients on brave creative risks?

• Build the business case: the biggest risk is being ignored. “Remind them how much they’ll spend on media—creative is just a fraction.” [88:45–90:54]
• Reframing risk as the danger of boring work, not bold work.

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Closing

The episode illustrates the chemistry and process behind breakthrough agency work—where rigor, humor, vulnerability, collaboration, and strategic flexibility all intermingle. These LA agencies show that the “magic” isn’t blind luck, but a mixture of process, bravery, repeated creative collision, and sincere enjoyment—focusing on what’s entertaining and emotionally resonant, rather than just filling a brief.

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For Full Campaign Examples and Further Industry Insights:
Visit onstrategyshowcase.com
Relevant references: Effie Awards, Tracksuit, Ipsos Creative Excellence

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This summary omits advertising, intros, and non-content banter for clarity and depth. Timestamps (MM:SS) indicate moments referenced in the provided transcript.

Transcript

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O' Carroll in Chicago. Hope you guys had a great week. Really excited to share this week's episode with you. We went out to Deutsch a couple of weeks ago, recorded a show in front of a live audience. Deutsch hosted us. And one of the interesting things is that I think a lot of us see work and we kind of forget where the work is produced. And we had the same kind of a thing in Dallas where we kind of realized that so much great work has come out of those agencies. And the same is true when we go out to LA and we gathered these agency folks to sit down and have a conversation. The amount of great work that's coming out of these markets and out of LA is really phenomenal. And we had the privilege of having a couple of people around our roundtable who were working with sort of celebrity created agencies. Maximum Effect was there in Artist Equity, which is where Ben Affleck and Matt Damon come out of an Artist Effect is Ryan Reynolds. And both of those places are doing really, really. They have a different approach to it than traditional agencies or even more modern agencies have, which is really interesting to hear about. And we'll hear about that during this conversation.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

But I loved it.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

We were really lucky to have the people that we did. And we tried a roundtable format for the very first time. And I kind of fell in love with it because I've always sort of suspected that having literally the panel sitting around in a circle, engaging with each other, it just feels more intimate rather than people sort of facing the audience. And I don't think it detract from the experience of being an audience member. So we're gonna continue to try that going forward. We actually just tried it last week again in London. We recorded at Mother this week and we had a great conversation there too. Very excited about it. We are coming up on December. We're heading into November now, of course. Well, shit, we're already halfway through November. Unbelievable. But yeah, we're heading in towards the holidays here. And we are doing our holiday ad special again here in Chicag. It's like Chicago's largest holiday party for planning. And you know, last year I think we had like 250 to 300 people. I don't remember exactly what the number was, but we had a brilliant time.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

It's been a pleasure to have us.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Hosted by High Dive in the Merchandise Mart. If you're in Chicago, I don't care what agency you come from, a media shop you come from a digital shop. You come from whatever. You define your shop as if you're in planning. We would love to have you guys come out and join us. You can learn more and you can buy your tickets on our [e-mail] under the Live Tour tab. It's gonna be the same format of last year, which was, in essence, just fun. We're gonna play the best holiday ads of the year from the US and from the uk. We're gonna talk about them, we're gonna say what we like about them and just. It's a really uplifting way to end the year to look at all these holiday ads and have fun and be together with people in the ad community. So again, I. When we hear from agencies that they're gonna make it sort of their agency planning department holiday party, I love that. I would love to think that we will make that the purpose of this event every year in Chicago. So hope to see everybody then. It is Thursday evening, December 4th at the Merchandise Mart between like 6 and 8pm Again, more information under the Live Tour tab on our website onStrategyshowcase.com so here is our convers at Deutsch. We had a great roundtable and I am thrilled to have as our sponsors of this live tour. We have the Effies, we have Ipsos and Tracksuit. Thank you to those three terrific organizations for making this live tour possible. They're doing the best work in supporting our industry and what we're all about. So do check them out. Here's our conversation in Deutsch. Enjoy.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O' Carroll in Los Angeles. So let's join. Let's jump. Put our hands together again for our panel. They can each come up and they can sit wherever they want to sit. It is John Deschner, head of brand at Maximum Effort. It is Ryan Lehrer, co Chief Creative Officer here at Deutsch. Jill Bergeson is chief Strategic Officer for TBWA Chiata, la. Jason Carley is executive creative Director at artists agency Artists Equity. And Amanda Shapiro is EVP Group Strategy Director here at Deutsch.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Fair.

[John Deschner]

Hometown crowd.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Jesus. This does actually feel pretty intimate, doesn't it? And I like this. Yeah, good.

[Ryan Lehrer]

There's not cameras catching shoulder rubs.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

This is great. So I'm thrilled to have you all here. I'm really surprised and disappointed that Ryan Reynolds did not make an appearance. My poor substitute. Poor substitute.

[Ryan Lehrer]

I was telling John my first job in la, I was a PA for Ryan Reynolds TV show. Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

No way.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Deliver coffees to him. So how are like John does now?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So feel free to adjust these mics. You might want to get them a little bit closer to where I am here, just in terms of distance.

[Ryan Lehrer]

There we go.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So we pick everybody and you can, you can move them up or move them down. You can pop them.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Can you pop it off and walk?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

You could probably do that if you'd like. So we're here to talk about magic moments, epiphany moments. And we've all had them. We don't have them regularly. It's not that we have them all the time. It's maybe not that there's exact way of finding them or discovering them, but when they happen, I think they make everything that we do in the business just sort of feel really great. And for us, we talk about them as magic moments. So that's what we're going to talk about tonight. And for the audience, we've had each of these guys pull together three examples, two or three examples of epiphany moments in the work that they've done throughout their career. And we're gonna play some of the creative work here for you guys to see, which is great. We might get sidetracked by some conversations around different creative work and I might ask some follow up questions about it, particularly Fansville. So we might get off track a little bit, but that's okay. But that's what we're gonna center around. But I wanted to start off first by talking about why the hell we ever got into this business in the first place. I mean, I know my story, Jason, but tell us about how it happened. Did somebody influence you? Was there an experience behind it?

[Jason Carley]

There really wasn't. I think my parents at one point had said, you know, if you go to school for advertising, you don't have to wear a suit. And as cliche as it was, I think they liked the show 30 something at the time.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Oh, man.

[Jason Carley]

And they were like, oh, that seems cool. And they knew I liked writing and was like semi creative. And so I think they were kind of like, well, that's a way that you can be semi creative and maybe make. And maybe make some money.

[Ryan Lehrer]

That's how I've described you.

[Jason Carley]

I know. Same.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Semi creative.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The semi creative executive director.

[Jason Carley]

Yes.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, so. So that led to what? That led to going into an agency. It led to studying it. It led to.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, I actually went to Syracuse, to Newhouse. They had like an ad program. It was again, just good enough that I didn't have to go to a trade school afterwards. So one of the ad schools that are way better than Syracuse would have been, but I kind of eked out of there and got a job in advertising.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So, Jill, for you, was it sort of like the similar sort of misfit story where people were kind of saying, well, maybe you shouldn't do that, you should do this?

[Jill Bergeson]

No, no. They thought I was a winner. Sorry. I was going to say it. You are for me. My parents watched 30 something too, and it was. There was like the cool ad exec guy. And so I remember kind of peeking in on that and being like, what? What's over there? What's happening?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

He was like the Jon Hamm of that time.

[Jill Bergeson]

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And. And then with that, I think shortly thereafter, that time period also had the Nike Instant Karma ad. And I just remember seeing, like, I'm like, you can put the Beatles with Nike and blow someone's mind in 30 seconds. And that was like, wow, that I want to do something like that. I want to be able to do something like that. And so then for some reason, I went to school to be a teacher. I don't know, because I didn't really know how to be in advertising. I'm from a small town and I didn't really know what that looked like or meant at all. And I think it was like first semester and I realized that I did not love children. And I have one, but I didn't want to do that then. And so then I switched into marketing. And then it kind of just snowballed in discovered advertising. I figured out how to get to where I wanted to get to.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And so what was your first agency job? And were you in planning or were you in some other role?

[Jill Bergeson]

My first agency job was in Rochester, New York, at a very small place called Roberts Communications. And I was there for. Did I hear a woo?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, woo for Robertson.

[Jason Carley]

Mine was in Rochester as well.

[Jill Bergeson]

It was awesome.

[Jason Carley]

That's where I grew up.

[Jill Bergeson]

So we have a lot.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Okay.

[Jill Bergeson]

A lot in common.

[Ryan Lehrer]

30 something.

[Jill Bergeson]

Look at this.

[Jason Carley]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Were you brother and sister so intimate.

[Jill Bergeson]

I know, yeah. So, yeah. So I was at that shop. It was small. And so as an account person, you kind of did all the things. I was writing briefs and I was doing account people things. And then when I moved to la, I ended up at Daily. I told the story a little while ago. I dropped my resume off at every single ad agency by hand, including Deutsch. And I actually ended up getting a call from Daily. And then shortly Thereafter, one from Shiat. Shiat. So, yes, daily. And. Yeah, and just kept progressing.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

I love it. And so, Ryan, how about it for you?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Well, I was In Rochester watching 30 Something on a Friday night. No, I washed ashore and advertising. Kind of like the misfit island that it is. Like I said, I was delivering coffee to Ryan Reynolds and the show went on hiatus. And I had a friend from high school who was working at Chiyette and he's like, you would love advertising. He's like, you're creative. You're doing all these things. You came up to LA to go to art school. You like to do comedy, and you should get into advertising. So I went in and got a. He got me an interview to be a receptionist at Chiatay. And I walked in there and I was like, whoa, this is cool. Look at all these dogs in a park, a basketball court, people like on razor scooters zipping by. And I was like this. I think I found my place. And I ended up on the switchboard for a couple months. And then I actually became a assistant in the IT department. And I was in it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

This is unbelievable.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah. And then I. There's not at all what I was expecting. I met some guys, but it's awesome playing Foosball. They were starting their own agency and I was like, hey, give me briefs, I'll do whatever. And they start giving me briefs. And then, like, I would write ideas and if they liked one, they'd comp it up. And I just like, started building a book from there. And then I got a job at a toy company writing copy for the Bratz dolls in the Valley. And then the guys who I met at Foosball started their own agency called Omelet, which is still around today. And I was the fourth hire there. And I worked there for about five years. And then Shiat hired me back as a senior copywriter after five years at Omelet. And then Deutsch hired me. I was at Shiat for about two years, and then it came to Deutsch. And been. Been at Deutsch for, gosh, almost 14 years now.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So, yeah. Wow, 14.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It was a long. It's not a path that I would maybe like, recommend. It's hard to replicate that path, you know, But I also, like, didn't expect to see Ryan Reynolds come into advertising. I was like, wait a second.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Right?

[Jason Carley]

That's how bad he wants his coffee. It's coming for you.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It's coming for me.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So I want to talk about. I want to talk about how we work and how you guys work, there's probably ways that you've sort of discovered that work for you or don't work for you. When you're either working on a brief or you're working on a strategy or you're working on an idea. Let's talk a little bit about how you like to approach that. Some people, and I'm one of those people, I like to isolate. And it was a mistake in my career, but I did it because I think at that time I felt that my deliverable was something other than what it should have been. I thought it was. I had to crack this thing. I had to come. I couldn't come out of my office, Amanda, until I had the goddamn brief.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Right, yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So how have you learned to work? Do you work at a certain time of the day better than another? Do you escape to a coffee shop? Do you work in your office? Do you work alone? How do you do it?

[Amanda Shapiro]

So my team knows this and I apologize profusely. I boot up at like 6am like, that's when my brain starts. So I am an early riser. I'll like, fire off inspiration and stuff like that. Too early. But I used to be an isolator. It is a mistake. I fully believe in collaboration now.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Why did you think you had to isolate?

[Amanda Shapiro]

I think I thought I had to crack it.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Ego, right? Like mine and my job depends on it. But it's like, it's better if we do it together. It always turns out better. And also, we all have such little time. I think collaboration is the hack to collapse time.

[Jill Bergeson]

So I also think Google Docs put a real end to all this.

[Amanda Shapiro]

You can't hide your stuff.

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah.

[Amanda Shapiro]

You can't hide anymore. As soon as we started doing share docs, like, thanks, I guess.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Are you anonymous owl?

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amanda Shapiro]

And sometimes I'm like, oh, my God, they're watching me. And that makes me nervous. But yeah, also, if I, like, really need to concentrate on something, I go to a comfy chair. Shoes off. Comfy chair.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Now tell us more about that. If you're.

[Jason Carley]

The chair has to be really soft.

[Amanda Shapiro]

The chair has to be really soft. And like, crisscross applesauce.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

But is it when you're stuck that you do that or when you just. You've got a big gnarly problem you have.

[John Deschner]

I don't know more about the chair, to be honest. I'm sort of locked down on the chair. But also the. When you're stuck.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah. Like, when I really need to, like, focus, like Immerse. Immerse myself. And like, if it's probably a really gnarly problem, like something that needs to be untangled, I need to be really comfortable to do that.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So how about for you, Jill? How do you like to work and how has it changed over time?

[Jill Bergeson]

I also was an isolator. This is like a very therapy. I know still that way. I do. Well, no, not anymore. I do. I actually do think it was Google Docs that really broke it for me because I was like, oh my God, people can see my stuff and it's still working and it's not good yet. And it was weird. And then you just had to get over it. And then also I think what helped was, you know, I went into tech for a little while and worked on the client side and that is very much beta. Like everything can get better at any time, all the time. You just can keep beating things. And I think not being precious about stuff was really kind of something that I was like, okay, this is how it is. And also things get better that way. So now I like to, I like to talk things out with people, I like to go for walks with people. And anybody at the shop now knows that I have a whiteboard in my office and it's one of my favorite things to do. I really like to whiteboard. It's fun.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And so when you're collaborating, tell us about how you're doing that. Because I'm bringing this up because I think a lot of people coming up in the business are struggling with this. I mean, from a planner's, Through a planner's lens, there's so many different types of planners. And so not only is it hard to know which type of planner you are, and not only do you have to sort of prove your value in the world of planning, but you've also got to prove your value to these guys. So what does collaboration look like? Does it sort of require that you come up with a couple of initial thought starters and then you literally get together with the Ryan's Because I know you guys have a very close working relationship too, right? So what is it? What does collaboration mean and at what stage? The earliest?

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah, I mean, it's different for me now. I'm not really writing as many briefs, but I love to kind of pop in and work with people on different things. And I think by putting ourselves out there and being vulnerable and saying the obvious or dumb thing or whatever things, something you think is smart in the moment, something just to get the conversation going, I think that's the best way to really kick it off with people because it lets them know you're ready to play and you're ready to just get it out there and talk about it. And then like what you say might spark something for you and it just kind of gets it going. So I think that's, you know, my role today is really to kind of just. Just get it started and then we can all kind of build. Some people, you know, will pull up like chatgpt or pull in books or pull in. I saw this, I saw that. And I think that building process is fun now. And if you keep it light and encouraging, that's obviously key too. And we try to keep small rooms, I think, for stuff like that. And then we share, call our creative friends. I always say they should be on speed dial early on and have those conversations.

[Amanda Shapiro]

And I think it takes the pressure off always having to have the answer right. I think early on it felt like I have to have the answer, but now we just have to get to the answer. And if he's got the answer, you got the answer. It doesn't matter where the answer comes from. But I think that's the building block process.

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So for you, John, tell us about your work and the role of strategy and what you're doing because you've had an interesting sort of journey. Tell us about what about this makes sense for you and what you're doing now.

[John Deschner]

I mean, we're interested. I mean, I've worked with three of the four other folks that are here and so in very different. Actually not really in sort of very similar capacities. But the place I work now is very odd. It is much more kind of writers room style. I mean, everybody has their job that they are meant to be very good at. But the strategy process is more just like research, distill very quickly. Just try to get down to what's the most important thing, what's that like? And it's. It is very light on insight and very heavy on like distill information down to like get people going. And then it's sort of writers room style. You know, sometimes that's like.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Before you go further, what does light on insight mean? What's the. I'm sure some people.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yeah, what does it mean?

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Right.

[John Deschner]

Briefs. Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

No, I love that. Say that again.

[John Deschner]

No, we don't write briefs. Don't write briefs.

[Jill Bergeson]

Not.

[John Deschner]

Not really. No. It's more like we also don't really do like strategy dives with our. Either our. For our own brands. We do like I did like A two month thing on Wrexham AFC where I was trying to, you know, working with the rest of my friends, trying to figure out like, what should the tone of the. Like, what should we do? What should our mission be? What should the tone of the things we make be? How do we talk with sponsors? That was sort of a. I mean that was like. Because we'd never owned a soccer club before and we'd never run a sports team and we'd never done it. So I was like, we should probably think about this for a while. But usually when something comes in, even something like big, we'll be like, let's just get all the information together, as much information as we can, then mush it down to something you can communicate in like three or four minutes, Google Doc style. And then how do you, how do.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

You decide what's the best message? Who's around that table?

[John Deschner]

Tell me the strategy part of it. Like getting like, getting down to like, what are we?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, when you say like you're baking.

[John Deschner]

It down, that's my dumb ass. Just trying to like pull a bunch of information in and be like, these are the three things you got to know. Or we actually have a head of strategy. This one, Bonnie Klein, who's like super smart, came from the New York Times, but again, not a classic strategist, but just a very good information filter. So it really is, it's actually much more about filtering down to like it's this brand, it's World cup, it's, you know, maybe this audience. And then, and then we start with angles which would be more like. It's very much like, what if we, like, what if we did something with the cities that didn't get World cup games? Nobody steal that. So smart, right? No. So it's like that level and then we get somewhere between 10 and 40 of us on a zoom or if we're real lucky in a room and we just start throwing ideas and you try to make people laugh or cry or be like, oh, we have to do that. And then we usually come out with two or three things we want to explore and then somebody gets the job of writing those up.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah. When we were in New York a couple of weeks ago at Mischief, I think it was, I think it was Tas d'sopoulos from Wieden who said that it's. And he was just talking about somebody else who had said it internally. He said that it's more important to be interesting than. Right. I mean, think about that.

[John Deschner]

It's sure easier.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

That's so damn True, right?

[John Deschner]

Yeah. I mean, I think. Well, especially. I think one of the differences is aside from the stuff we own, we aren't generally building a brand over time. No lunatic at amex is gonna be like, you guys should own this brand for five years. Cause Elizabeth Rutledge is too smart for much more. That somebody is either like, we have a problem or we have a moment in time or like opportunity. And so it's like basically our job is to set off a big sort of magnesium bright flare around something and. But all the stuff where like, if you're going to do Dr. Pepper for like six or seven years, you're gonna be a lot smarter than that.

[Ryan Lehrer]

14. But yeah, sure.

[John Deschner]

But the first five, it was like, it was okay, you know, and then it got really good. No, I'm just kidding. No, but if you're gonna like, if you're gonna really own a brand over, over time. Like we're doing a bunch of work with l' Oreal right now that's super fun. A lot of it's around like entertainment properties, but like McCann has to worry about that stuff for 100 years and we have to worry about it in six week increments. So it's much more like even too. Part of the reason we don't do deep strategy is because we rarely target audiences. We'd sort of target an emotional state. And then if you reach 100 million people in earned media, your target audience will be in there. And then the people doing a lot smarter brand work, performance, media, things like that will be able to harvest that energy and use it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah. Because it's not what's really interesting. Although you guys, you can't avoid the fact that Ryan Reynolds is involved in a lot of your things, but most of your work doesn't involve him at all. I mean, you know, and we're gonna talk about some of it in a little while. But there's. So it's. Nobody should conclude that, well, you've got a celebrity, you're always gonna get, you're always gonna draw attention. But that's not the case with most of your work.

[John Deschner]

I mean, to be fair, we use a lot of celebrity talent in things. But I just think about this, I mean, this is normal, I think, to all of advertising. Like there are force multipliers you can use. And sometimes that's media dollars, sometimes it's an event, could be a sweepstakes, it could be a new feature. And celebrity talent is just a lever where we've developed a little like, you know, sort of an Aptitude for using. Yeah, but. But, yeah. No, now, I mean, if you go back five years, probably 75% of the stuff we did had him in it or he was directing it. And now it's. Yeah, it's. It is a much smaller amount. But he still, like, writes and texts over weird things and is like, we should go do this, and then we go do it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah. So if anybody wants to know more about Ryan Reynolds, you can corner him later. But we're not going to do it tonight.

[John Deschner]

Like, Venmo me or something. And then we get into it.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Is that one of your new clients? No, Venmo.

[Jason Carley]

About to be.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So I'm super curious. Let's talk to you first. Ryan, I'm super curious about how you like to work. Back to the question originally for a minute. Is there times of day? Is there a style that you have? Has it changed over time?

[Ryan Lehrer]

I. I do still like the isolation. At times, I am very collaborative. For Fansville, for instance, we employ a writer's room. Very similar to what John was talking about is like, you know, it's a fake TV show, and so it feels like it wants to, you know, have that kind of style of creative. At the same time, I still concept on my own. I love concepting. It's like, cliche. But in a car, I do really great thinking in a car, I do really great thinking in a shower in the middle of night. At three in the morning, I'll have the idea, and I wake up and put it into my notes, and then I read it the next morning, I'm like, what was this? Koala skateboard? I like, it's some weird dream I had, but it ends up happening is the isolation works. You write a bunch of ideas, and a lot of times, and Amanda will know, it's like you beat your head. And I like to talk it out. And often I think the solution presents itself as you've hit that frustrating point of you're banging your head against the wall and you're almost explaining why you're frustrated. Like, I mean, this idea.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

How.

[Ryan Lehrer]

I mean, how this brief. How are we going to do it? How are we going to do this and this and have this line up? And then as you're lining it all up, it's like the solution sort of like presents itself to you, and it's like, oh, my gosh, that's the eureka moment. It's like you basically in your frustration and lay it out. But I also have hacks that I like to use, and I'm sure Jason has some too, where you just try to of change your mind frame on how you're thinking about a problem. And like, one that I heard recently and I've employed it, and it's actually really fun, is like, what is the worst idea? You know, like, come up with the worst idea. And sometimes by coming up with the worst idea, then you can like, almost like sort of reverse engineer to a good idea. And it's like, I don't know, there's just like fun little things of like, how would you use a song? How would you use a celeb? Like, you kind of go through the tropes. Or how would you use a spokesperson? Or what would be the positive spokesperson? What would be the negative spokesperson? Someone who would be like, sort of drafting off the brand's equities or someone who would be like the anti of the brand's equities. And you sort of, like, you just start kind of wayfinding. And one of the other things I've always said, and it's sort of like the game of Battleship, you're sort of trying to triangulate where the idea comes from. I mean, you use this. You come up with ideas, and if they're not right, that's like, you know, that area isn't, like, fertile. And you kind of, you know, you go B4. You know, it's like, hit. Okay, there we go. I found the idea. And so you just try to come up with a lot of different ideas, a big range of ideas, and you kind of find your way that way.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

How about for you, Jason?

[Jason Carley]

Well, we used to do a similar thing where we would be like, all right, what's the most inappropriate thing we could do? And then can we actually, like, dial it back a few spots? Like, well, if it wasn't murder. And then if we pull this, like, now, oh, my God, now we can put that on the air. So working style. Yeah. I like to go away and come back. So I like to. Or actually I like to come back and then go away. So I like to collaborate and, like, have the conversations and get to the idea. Usually in a group or in a.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Room or right up front. Meaning once a brief has been. Or whatever the conversation is.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, usually there's some conversation. We tackle things similarly.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Like.

[Jason Carley]

Like, we kind of, you know, start talking about a brief before maybe an official briefing and kicking around some things we have in our minds that we want to make sure people chase. I'm also thinking, like, when I was a team, you know, we would just. We'd work on it together, and then we'd go away, maybe write up, you know, writing up the thing, whether it's a script or just like the page of, like, how it's all going to work. I tend to do that better by myself than, like, trying to, like, group type is like one of my. Makes me absolutely insane. So I do like to crack the idea to, like, riff and bounce things off each other. Cause there's always an angle or an ad that you wouldn't have thought of yourself. That eventually just makes it a more whole idea.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So when you're riffing back and forth, who's in the room? Is Amanda in the room? These guys work together on Dr. Pepper and Fansville.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Well, I mean, sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes there's a time for strategy partners. And I also like to bounce around and sit in people's offices.

[Amanda Shapiro]

He shops it.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, shop and like, hey, you know. Because sometimes it's like, you have an idea.

[John Deschner]

What do you mean?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

You shop. You just. You want to know what's going on?

[Ryan Lehrer]

No, you shop the. You have a. You have a seed of an idea, a kernel of an idea. And so, yeah, soft sell it. Sometimes, you know, you go, I'll sit in Amanda's oven. You know, like, do you like.

[Jason Carley]

Do you like it?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Would you like it if I did something. How to get that in?

[Jason Carley]

How to get it in?

[Ryan Lehrer]

You know, and then I'll go to my account partner and then some of my other creatives or other creatives on other teams. And, you know, I like to, you know, I like to kind of vet the idea. But, like, when you have, like, big Rift sessions, a lot of times you start that with, like, a creative. Creative teams and my creative reviews. And Jason and I have been in plenty of creative reviews through the years. You know, not recently, but, you know, I still remember those.

[Jason Carley]

They were really nice. They were really nice.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah.

[Ryan Lehrer]

You give good creative reviews.

[Jason Carley]

I think about them all the time.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, we would, like, just riff ideas and you just, like, build, and Jason will come up with an idea, and then I'll come up with an idea, and you're just sort of building jokes and kind of like, where could we take this? And you kind of go down a creative cul de sac.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So then what's the role of Amanda? What do you want from Amanda?

[Ryan Lehrer]

What's the role?

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yeah, Ryan.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Well, she tries to dial it in because she's like, that's way off strategy.

[Amanda Shapiro]

No, he. He's a very responsible creative. Like, he, like, internalizes the strategy. And even if I push on the strategy. He is able to like, tell me how it's on strategy. So, like, that's often how our debates go.

[Audience Member Lisa Ivey]

Bullshit.

[Jason Carley]

Basically.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It's a, it's a tennis match sometimes. But no, I mean, we've, we've gotten, we've, we've agreed, we've been aligned. We've also been misaligned and we've not agreed, but usually we find like a common ground and you know, and again, she, she obviously big proponent of the creative and ambitious creative vision, but she also can right size sort of the idea at times too. And so it's a nice give and take at times.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So are you looking. Go ahead.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Well, I just think the role I think of strategy is not to cancel the idea, but to make it on strategy. So if you, if Ryan's really passionate about something, there is always a way, I think, to get it on strategy, like to kind of position the work or position the strategy to like make them align. So you just gotta like, build the bridge.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So are you in the early days of strategy development, are you collaborating with him? Is there that riff back and forth, you're running it by him and then he's that back and forth process on both?

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, you know, brief the teams together, but we also developed the strategy together. And again, I also, I don't know how Jason feels as a creative, but sometimes I'm. I don't know how gifted I am on like predicting whether a strategy. Like, sometimes you're like, I think this is really good. And I like, it's, it's hard sometimes without sort of pressure testing because I know there's been strategies that I've had and been like, this is going to be great. And then you're like three days into it, you're like, this isn't working. And then there's been strategies on the opposite where I was like, like, I'm lukewarm on this. And then you start working on it. It's like the most fertile strategy. You're like, you go back to people and like, it's really good. This is really good.

[Amanda Shapiro]

But even, even if it's hard to predict the strategy, I think things that you are excited about creatively, there's always a way to back that into a strategy. Like, what, what's an idea that is interesting? And then like, what's the strategy that's associated with that? That can be. A lot of times how we workshop strategy is like, he talks in ideas, I talk in strategy. And usually there's a way to like align the two.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Find some common ground and straighten it out.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

We'll be right back.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Our live tour is brought to you by the Effie's OnStrategy showcase is thrilled to be the official podcast partner of the Effie's. For over 55 years, Effie has been the global authority on marketing effectiveness. They lead the way with the largest, most prestigious marketing Effectiveness awards across 130 markets worldwide with their coveted Effie Index ranking the most effective brands, market and agencies globally. But Effie is more than awards. They're dedicated to helping all marketers, from seasoned CMOs to those just getting started, understand what makes marketing effective by equipping them with insights, tools and inspiration they need to succeed. [e-mail] Our tour is also brought to you by Tracksuit. Tracksuit's a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking without the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. More [e-mail] Our tour is also brought to you by Ipsos Creative Excellence, the experts in using research to inspire and empower creativity. Every marketer knows the best creative work starts with a strong brief. Yet the reality is many briefs that brands give their agencies miss the mark. In fact, Ipsos found that only 5% of brand marketers say the quality of their briefs is really good. That's why Ipsos created Creative Fuel. Creative Fuel is strategy research designed to help brands ensure the messages in their brief are something both their audiences and their agencies can get excited about. With Creative Fuel, marketers can build confidence and buy in around the kind of simple, bold, empathetic strategies that inspire the caliber of work we're discussing today. So if you want to start fueling your next campaign with strategy that really moves the needle, check out Ipsos Creative Excellence and their Creative Fuel solution. More [e-mail] that's Ipsos I P E. Now back to the show.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

We've talked on the show a lot about how important it is to find sort of a professional for planners in particular to find a sort of a professional soulmate like you find a partner in life, it's to find that. And when you Find that person. It can be a force factor multiplier in terms of the success of your career, because it can be. And probably a lot of people in this audience and people listening, a bad creative relationship will fuck with your entire career. It just won't work out. And it's okay for that to happen because it happens to almost everybody at some point or another. But when you find people that you can work with, I mean, that's when the best work, I think happens.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Ryan Reynolds actually calls John his professional soulmate.

[John Deschner]

He's gonna get me fired on this podcast. No. Interesting. What I've seen, and again not just in my current job, but previously too, is like that the formality of the process has in good ways broken down in the 15, 20 years or probably in the last like 10 years. And I think just of that, even to that point of like, you could start with a like, man, I would love to make something like this. Sometimes you could start. It starts with production of like, man, what if we did something in this space and then you do you find the rationale and the right way to make it fit. And I think that that lack of formality, that breaking down of like the, the assembly line nature of how things worked for a while, I think has been very healthy. And then you let, you let just like good ideas bounce off of each other. Or you can bring people together, rally them to your cause and try to go make something cool.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It had to break down because things have to go so fast nowadays. I mean, it's like I always joke about these creatives in the 70s who had like one commercial to make. Hey guys, let's make a beer ad. It should just feature people skiing. Should we go to Taos for four months?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It's like, yeah.

[John Deschner]

And Veil for the edit beer dudes.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Nowadays you're like, you know, you have to do so much so fast. So many deliverables.

[John Deschner]

Yeah, it is more about things. Oh, sorry.

[Jill Bergeson]

I'm sorry. I was just going to ask if I could ask a follow up question.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Of course.

[Jill Bergeson]

Okay. So when you guys talk about the writers rooms and things like that, I think that's really interesting. Is it tough when you have some folks who may be more introverted in the room but may have great ideas? How do you get them talking? Or is it just tough at least.

[John Deschner]

For what I see. I think that's why sometimes doing it over things like zoom or having things like slack on the side, it lets like there's actually a guy Julian that a couple folks here know as well, that I work with, who's just insanely smart, but he doesn't like, like lobbing ideas out live, but he will drop them in the zoom or like drop them in like slack chat. And so I think you just have to like, multi thread that so that it's not down to, like, who's loudest. Yeah, you know.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, yeah. I've found that, like, when it's in that situation, it's usually like you brief, you give it a day or two so people can like come with pitches a little more thought out in their head and even then just giving the comfort of like, you know, no bad ideas, you know, as simple as that is, or just like, you know, just, this is just a brain dump. Anything you've thought of, it doesn't have to be worked out, it doesn't have to be good. It's up to the rest of the room to make it good if it is, you know, so takes the pressure off. Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Lehrer]

For the most part, you know your teams and you know who is going to be more, you know, verbose or outward. And I find that it's nice not to like, put people on the spot, but like, hey, Alec, welcome them. I haven't heard from you. What do you think? How do you do you like that idea? And again, you have to be able to speak your mind, even in a room in this industry. It doesn't mean you have to be the most, like, outspoken, but, you know, you have to be able to present your ideas and be able to communicate them. That's part of the job. But if you know your teams, you know who's gonna be, you know, maybe less likely to speak up and you just have to kind of bring it out of them a little bit.

[Jill Bergeson]

That's cool.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Okay, so let's turn a corner here and talk about some magic moments. And I'm actually gonna start with John. So what are we talking about here? When we talk about magic moments? I'm curious about what you were wrestling with at the time, what you were feeling at the time, and what the solution ultimately ended up being. So it's this sort of idea of you were presented with an idea, maybe something immediately came to you. I don't know, it doesn't really matter. But I'm super curious. For example, when I look at the Astronomer work with Gwyneth Paltrow, and you guys talk about this as what you call fastvertising, right?

[John Deschner]

Tm.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, tm. Yeah.

[John Deschner]

I don't think it's trademarked, to be.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Honest, but I'm interested In sort of. And maybe there wasn't a magic moment. That work was really great and it was timely and everything. It was brilliantly sort of framed. But tell me a little bit about moments of magic or when I would talk about epiphany moments.

[John Deschner]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that. I mean, that was an extraordinary circumstance, obviously, like the whole world, right up until the American Eagle ad, was like, talking about that moment. Not the ad, like, talking about, like.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The things that explain the moment for the listener.

[John Deschner]

Yeah, it was like, you know, so that thing had happened.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

What thing? Oh, the.

[John Deschner]

Sorry. Yes. You reminded me of this earlier. So that was obviously a, you know, CEO and chief people officer from a company had got busted on Kiss cam at a Coldplay show, so shame on them.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

For.

[John Deschner]

And so basically the whole. And I think it was a mix of cultural factors. A, it was just an extraordinary response that they had. B, Chris Martin, the lead singer, like, called it out. And then C, people hate tech CEOs and are, like, happy to watch somebody get, like, taken down. I mean, that was a real factor of, like, people are angry at rich tech bros and they like to see somebody who is, like, definitely going to lose their job. And they're like, fuck that guy. So that had happened on, I think, think Thursday. And then Saturday morning, a friend of ours who's like a crisis guy, who's very smart, if anybody needs him, he's. Well, a. You don't want to need him, but he's amazing, called us up Saturday morning was like, could you guys jump on and talk with these dudes in 15 minutes? And it was the acting CEO and CMO who were really smart, very nice people who were caught in, like, an insane cultural crossfire. Like, this was zero percent their fault.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So this was coming from the client. The client brand.

[John Deschner]

Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The CEO stepped down by that point. And they had an acting.

[John Deschner]

They had the acting seat, like, ce. Who's this guy? Pete DeJoy, who's a wonderful dude. He'd been the chief product officer. He's just, like, obsessed with his company and has had to help build it for eight or nine years since it started. So they were just like, we have this thing in front of us. And their crisis guy they brought in was like, you should talk with maximum effort because we'd done some stuff with him before. So we jumped on, just a couple of us, George Dewey, our president and I jumped on and had a chat with them and just were like. And interestingly, they were like, listen, we have a lot of people offering to do work for us. Right now. And we just said, it's fair. And we said, listen, fair play. We think there are 99 ways to do this wrong and one to do it right. And you really, like, you guys need to reclaim this moment, and you need to take all this really nasty energy that is being directed at your former CEO and put it somewhere better. And so they were like, all right, so we talked. We got everybody together on Saturday afternoon, and we did. We got. I don't know, like 30 of us just jumped on a zoom. We started, like, everyone is familiar with the situation, started lobbing stuff back and forth. And then somebody was like, two things happened. One was like, this needs to be really innocent. It needs to be really innocent and naive because these guys are like data dorks. Like, that's what they do. Like, they are basically like, big data flow company. I don't even understand it really, but. But we're like, these guys are nerds, and they should be like, oh, my goodness. Like, all this attention. We're like, we can be, like, innocent and naive, and that could be really charming. And then somebody we worked with was like, oh, my God, it has to be Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And then it had nothing to do with Chris Martin.

[John Deschner]

Well, no, for sure it did. Well, like, you needed to acknowledge what had happened. You needed to acknowledge, like, this thing had happened.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

But, like, like, I was always curious, did she do it? Because it was Chris Martin who was involved with Coldplay.

[John Deschner]

I would not presume to speak to. No, no. I mean, she and. She and Chris Martin, I think, have a very good relationship. No, it was. Honestly, I mean, this. This is where. Where we do for sure have a cheat code is like, we came up with this idea. We're like, this could be really funny. And then Ryan's like, I have her.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Number on my phone.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Exactly.

[John Deschner]

Yeah, I actually.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, I just texted her. She's in.

[John Deschner]

You know, that actually happened. Yeah, that's. That's sort of what happened. Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So. But.

[John Deschner]

But wait, before that, we went. We went back to Astronomer. Like, we have this idea. And here's like, the important thing was the tone. You know, there was going to be this. Like, it was like, this was in George Dewey present was like. He's like, it starts with, thank you for your interest in Astronomer. Like, and we're like, oh, my. And so. So then, you know, wrote up a couple of versions and. Yeah. And then went back to those guys. They were like, this is funny. Can you get her? And then what you said happened, and she said, sure. Can you guys be here tomorrow afternoon at 5pm and we said no problem. And then we went and made it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Okay, so we're going to play this mod. Can we play Astronomer?

[Voiceover/Actor in ads]

Thank you for your interest in Astronomer. Hi, I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. I've been hired on a very temporary basis to speak on behalf of the 300 plus employees at Astronomer. Astronomer has gotten a lot of questions over the last few days and they wanted me to answer the most common ones. Yes, Astronomer is the best place to run Apache airflow, unifying the experience of running data ML and AI pipelines at scale. We've been thrilled so many people have a newfound interest in data workflow automation. As for the other questions we ran, received. Yes, there is still room available at our beyond analytics event in September. We will now be returning to what we do best, delivering game changing results for our customers. Thank you for your interest in Astronomer.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Was there paid media behind that or was it.

[John Deschner]

No.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Okay.

[John Deschner]

No. And we actually, for the, for the launch we decided that Astronomer should just. So the CEO just put it up on his link to in and just put it there. And we didn't notify anybody. And also we very consciously did not claim it. We didn't say that we were part of it for three days until he posted something about that because we didn't want the story to be about anybody else. We just wanted this to come from them. So he posted on LinkedIn and I think it was crazy. That video has more impressions than the Deadpool and Wolverine trailer.

[Jason Carley]

Wow.

[John Deschner]

Bananas. But yeah, and then on Sunday, like the CEO was like, hey, I just would just like to thank our temporary spokesperson, Gwyneth Paltrow, and maximum effort.

[Ryan Lehrer]

I always feel like when you guys nail it like that, it's almost like a SNL sketch. It's so perfect because you have that celeb and it feels like you're almost like the SNL of commercials.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Okay, so I'm not sure that there was like an epiphany moment in that story, but it's a brilliant idea that.

[Jason Carley]

Sorry, I think you just got disqualified.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

No, I mean it's great. It's amazing. So stuff. And as I say, not everything has an epiphany moment in it. And an example of an epiphany moment. I was reading up on some stuff today. You guys all may be familiar with the Guinness campaign. Good things come to those who wait. That line actually didn't come from an agency at all. It came from a conversation that a planner was having with somebody drinking or wanting to drink a Guinness at the bar because it takes 180 seconds to properly pour a pint of Guinness. And so the planner was just talking about the Guinness and about drinking Guinness, what you like about Guinness. And the guy was like waiting for his pint to get poured and he just sort of said, you know, well, you know, good things come to those who wait. It was like, holy shit. Like, that's it. And I've had that happen a number of times. To me. Another great example is Marmite. If you know the Marmite campaign from Adam and Eve DDB in the uk. Brilliant work for such a long time. Where did you either love it or hate it as the basis platform of that whole brand? Where did that come from? It came from, actually a researcher who was debriefing the agency literally said, well, you know, you either love it or you hate it. Boom. And so those types of things are amazing. They don't always happen a lot, but they can happen in weird ways. So, Amanda, do you have an epiphany moment like that or something similar to that?

[Amanda Shapiro]

I think so.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

I love it.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Let's talk Snapple.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yes, let's do it.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Ryan knows Snapple. He can talk about the work after I talk about the strategy. So, Snapple, icon of Bodega New York culture. As a New Yorker, I feel very passionately about this brand and the Wendy's work.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The Wendy work. Back in the day.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yes, back in the day, we had such a responsibility to make this brand interesting, relevant, kind of modern for today's culture with a new, younger audience. The truth about Snapple, it's just a really good tasting drink and it's now in a category that has exploded with lots of other beverages that do a lot of other things that are good for you or have functions and things like that. So the truth, I think, about magic moments is that you have to make them happen sometimes. Like, Eurekas are great, but you have to kind of set the stage for them. So we were talking to our new consumers that we wanted to acquire, and we were asking them not what they thought about Snapchat, but what their life was like around the moments they might be drinking a Snapple, which is usually around their afternoon breaks. And we kept on hearing kind of a language pattern. I'm taking this break, but I should be. I should be productive. I should be checking emails. I should be going to the gym. I shouldn't be scrolling on social media. I shouldn't be playing Candy Crush. I should be drinking more water, drinking caffeine or not drinking caffeine. So then the brief to Ryan was we're shoulding all over ourselves. I'm so glad I got to say that we're shooting all over ourselves. And Snapple can be this really refreshing taste of freedom when it just tastes really good. The also really interesting thing that I think a lot of strategists feel when they kind of land something is that our confirmation bias, we see it everywhere and then we think we are brilliant.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

That's right.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Right. So suddenly it is like, oh my God, we're inundated with shoulds everywhere. It's all over my social. Right. Like, what is this influencer talking about their 5 to 9 after they're 9 to 5. And what about this 12 step makeup.

[John Deschner]

Routine or whatever 5am work?

[Amanda Shapiro]

The 5am work. Right. And like what is that Erewhon smoothie? And like what's in it? And like what's ashwagandha and whatever. So like there shoulds in life and the category. So that was the brief. I think that's kind of.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So what's your reaction to that when you get it?

[Ryan Lehrer]

I really liked it and I think it was.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And were you involved early or did you just see the brief or the country?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, I mean we did like strategy workshops in Texas with our clients who are just like so excited to try to uncover something for this iconic brand. And so we spent a lot of time and Texas like working with them and you know, because part of the KDP brand portfolio, Snapple's based in Texas and it was just, it was a lot of fun. And so we were all sort of trying to land this plane and this idea of kind of taking on functional beverages which have become sort of the trend du jour of, you know, the beverage space.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The poppy poppies.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yes, exactly.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, poppies. But it's not just prebiotic, probiotic. I mean there's just all sorts of biotics. But it's like, you know, but it's like. And what we were sort of talking about is when you think about your life nowadays, there's almost, there's just this such a push to be productive. And so in the morning you have to have your coffee and then when you have, you have to have another cup of coffee, so you gotta have your caffeine. And then when you work out, you have to have your pre workout when you, you know, when your stomach's a little upset, you've got your probiotic drink. And so basically these drinks almost become your sort of co pilot of your day to Push you to do something. And, like, there's just not a drink to just enjoy anymore. And, like, especially in a break. And you just want a break of your drink and your moment in your day to just enjoy something that tastes good. And we felt like that's the moment for Snapple. And it just felt like when you walk down the beverage aisle nowadays, there's just. Everyone's just inundating you and yelling at you about what they do for you. It's not. The original function of a drink was to taste good. And so that was sort of how we kind of aligned at that is this idea that the beverage aisle now is just very noisy with kind of brands bragging about what they do, like reading their resume.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And this spot captures this strategy.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yes. This is a reel of. So we launched the this really heavy in New York to kind of reclaim that icon status in New York winter heartland. So this was a big out of home push, big subway, and there's also some film in here.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Cool. Let's go ahead and play that Snapple spot.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Hey, that Snapple looks refreshing, but does it help your gut health? I got probiotics, Jimmy.

[Audience Member Lisa Ivey]

You stressing them out, Frank? I have adaptogens that can help with it.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Are you nauseous?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Cause fortified with botanicals, man.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Hey, what's that smell?

[Jill Bergeson]

Kombucha's leaking again.

[Jason Carley]

It's called fermentation.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Read a label.

[Ryan Lehrer]

You know what's refreshing? A drink that actually tastes good. Real tea. Real juice.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The Snapples are singing again. Love it. So, Jason, tell me about an example you might want to share about a kind of an unlocker. A moment for you.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah. When I was working on Bud Light, their strategy was like, cover your ears. It was essentially, people want it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

That was the strategy.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So that's the problem right there.

[Ryan Lehrer]

That's the strategy.

[Jason Carley]

I mean, it was called great lengths. And it was like the great lengths people go through for Bud Light. And the tenants were protection and pursuit of Bud Light. So, I mean, it's literally nothing, which makes for a really hard brief, especially like the second, third year you work on it. And so, I mean, this really isn't a deep story other than just a really big epiphany moment. You know, my partner and I are sitting there for, you know, the hundredth time, staring at a blank page, talking about like, well, you know, they've done farting horses, and they've done, you know, what hasn't been covered yet.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Yet.

[Jill Bergeson]

Where do you start?

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, where do you start? But that is why so many Ads back in late 2000s were people stealing it out of their neighbors fridges, people creating crazy contraptions to protect it. So, long story short, we're kind of just rattling through new ways into it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Is a planner involved in that process at that time or.

[Jason Carley]

No, I'm sure there was one. And then he left five years prior or something. No, I mean, there was one that good.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, it was like, mic drop.

[Jason Carley]

And he, like, went to work on McDonald's.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It was like, three years. Yeah.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah. So lightly involved. Yeah. You know, so for this one, I mean, it's very simple. My partner and I were just sitting in the office for, you know, a day in a row, and we started talking about things that hadn't been put in, you know, recently we hadn't seen. And I was like, oh, is there something with a tip jar? Can you do something with, like, you know, the bartender or the money in the tip jar? And we were like, I don't know. He's like, yeah, or like a swear jar. And, like, as soon as he said it, I was just kind of like. I was like, oh, yeah, they can, like, set one up. And then people just swear as much as possible. And, you know, and we both just started building on it from there. Just kind of like, all right, well, we gotta just think of all the most mundane things that happen in an office water cooler. Saying hi in the morning.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Morning.

[Jason Carley]

Inspirational speech from a boss copier. And we just started kind of, like, filling. This was one where I do remember. We just kind of started, like, filling a page of ideas of, like, vignettes, essentially. And, you know, it kind of. You know, it evolved from there. We kind of added some, changed some.

[Ryan Lehrer]

That is the fun thing about when you unlock and.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Lehrer]

And that feels it almost like, writes itself.

[Jason Carley]

It's literally. Yes, I think. I think. And almost every time you come up with something that you're like, this is fresh. This is unique. This is even something as simple as that. And, like, again, it's such a simple ad, which was part of the challenge of, like, kind of staying ahead of the audience and, like, finding, like, I said enough different ways to do the same joke over and over and over.

[Ryan Lehrer]

But I guess that would be the magic moment is, like, once that the magic is the faucet comes on.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And it just.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It was.

[Jason Carley]

It was literally the moment he said. The moment he said swear, Jack, we were just like, that's it. And we were just kind of done. And, you know, we wrote up 10 other ideas that day. But, like, I don't remember, you know, any of them.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Was it easy to sell it in?

[Jason Carley]

It was. Our bosses loved it. And so they were smart enough to know, like, we can use this and we can put it online. But they weren't, like, nearly as enthusiastic about it as, like, the six other things that got shot in that super bowl season. To the extent that at the pre pro, the client, you know, we went through. I really think it was, like, six other spots. We went through the six other spots, and then the director got to swear jar, and the client was like, oh, cool. The one that will air on tv. I'll see you guys later. And he left like, we're gonna go.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Meet the strategist who came.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, he's like, I'm gonna go get drinks with the strategist because he's my bud.

[Ryan Lehrer]

He's playing golf.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So really, there wasn't that level of enthusiasm for.

[Jason Carley]

Again, internally, there was, but almost to the extent that we shot it, edited it, and it sat on the shelf for a good six months because the client was just kind of like, yeah, like, you know, yeah, we'll put it out somewhere. We're just. We don't know. Like, we're trying to, you know, we. We're focused on the super bowl, and we're focused on, you know, the real stuff.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

But that was also what ran in. What ran on the super bowl that year.

[Jason Carley]

That year. I. I honestly don't remember.

[Ryan Lehrer]

This is, like, back in the day when Budweiser would shoot all these, and.

[Jason Carley]

Basically, they would literally shoot, like, eight spots, pick their favorite six, and put them on the Super Bowl. Yeah, they would shoot it and decide. Let the other ones air during the rest of the year.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah.

[Jason Carley]

But. Yeah, so it kind of sat on a shelf, and it wasn't until they were trying to launch a thing called Bud tv, which is total disaster, that they. They used that to be the bait. And it was, like, gatekept. And that was the only place you could go see it. Yeah.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Oh, my God.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

All right, so let's play the curse jar.

[Audience Member Lisa Ivey]

What's that?

[Voiceover/Actor in ads]

That's a swear jar. Every time someone swears, you put a quarter in it.

[John Deschner]

Who gets the money?

[Voiceover/Actor in ads]

I don't know. We'll use it to buy something for the office, like a case of Bud Light or something.

[John Deschner]

Awesome.

[Ryan Lehrer]

You, Bob?

[Fergus O'Carroll]

You, Jim?

[Jill Bergeson]

Eric, I have a bag in line three for you.

[Voiceover/Actor in ads]

Can I borrow your pen?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Can I borrow your.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Your pen?

[Jill Bergeson]

Will the owner of a white station wagon please go yourself?

[John Deschner]

We're going to go down there, and we're Going to some.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

We're going to some.

[John Deschner]

We're going to do whatever we have to because we're going to some.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

That's great.

[Jill Bergeson]

Very nice.

[John Deschner]

That is a great example, though. Like, you say you have. You have a product that's like, fine, right? But there's like 10,000 other things just like. And you have like a brand strategy coming from a giant conglomerate that's like, fine. They're like, everybody wants this. It's great. It's like American people love it. Yeah.

[Ryan Lehrer]

They're like.

[John Deschner]

You're like, nah. So then, like, the thing becomes a device. Like, you have to find, like, basically, like, all you have to go on is, like, you can be entertaining because, like, everything else is going to stay the same. So you get like, entertaining is your thing. You get to be. And then that's like the pathway to relevance.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you don't have a strategy with any kind of insight or any specific angle in it, it. It's just kind of the. I mean, the onus is all on the creative, you know, which is, you know, 10 times harder. That's why I've kind of all. And Jill and I have had this conversation a million times, but, like, I'd rather a clear strategy than. Than like a. A bad one, you know, like, even I'd rather. It's convenience for the hundredth time. But now we're looking at convenience with this product, you know, now, in this year with whatever's going on today in culture. Culture. Than something that's really convoluted and you can't even quite get your head around. But yeah, having a direction. I mean, you need it. Yeah.

[John Deschner]

Like, novelties are add, but meaning is useful.

[Jill Bergeson]

But you technically nailed that brief.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Fuck, yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Thank you, Jill. How about. Any thoughts you want to share on an example?

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah, so let's see. So my example would be when I was on the. The other side, the client side, and things are different over there, I learned, and it was a good experience. But when I worked on Twitch, one of the things that we wanted to do was really start to give it a brand platform. It was one of those things that basically everyone I asked even who was employed there, what is Twitch? Everyone had a different answer, and none of them were right or wrong or whatever. It's just everyone's different interpretation. So therefore, every piece of communication or social or anything that came out of our place, it just all sounded different and completely didn't build on anything. We're also at a point where we wanted to start expanding what we did, right. So a lot of people would just be like, so you guys, like, watch Gamers game? Like, it was always like, why? You know, I don't even understand it.

[John Deschner]

Totally inaccurate, right?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Right.

[Jill Bergeson]

It's not totally. And so, you know, this was a tough one because again, we talked to a lot of people internally. We talked to a lot of, you know, people who. A lot of streamers, a lot of people who like to watch Twitch and ask the same, you know, same question. We kind of tried to get out of a lot of different places too, of what is it? Why do you like it? Why do you keep coming back all these things? And again, it was really kind of different. Different and personal, I would say, for each person. So that research wasn't really helpful. Sometimes you get stuff back and it's like, I can read the tea leaves and there's something good here. So one day I was. I don't know where I was, but I was talking to a friend about. She was asking me about my daughter, who was kind of like in the tween zone at that time, and she's like, God, what's it like now when you, like, have kids over? Or how do you kind of, like, what do you do now? How has it changed since they're little? And I was like, you know, it's kind of like if you're at a playground and you just gotta make sure everything's fun and available for them and they have snacks and they've got their stuff and they're able to really do, you know, what they want to do and feel like they're on their own. Right. And so as I was talking about that, I think so, as you know, I was just telling my friend that story about, like, this is kind of different. You just kind of kind of roll the ball out and then get out of the way because you are no longer. You are not cool, you are not welcome. It is not about you. Like the old days when you could help kids play and do fun stuff and bring them snacks and all that stuff. And when I was talking to her about it, it really made me think about Twitch. This is really just a place that we allow people to hang out and hang together. And that's really the special part about it. You start to see when you follow different streamers, it's the conversations on the side and within, and it's the relationship that they start to have with the streamer that really makes it worthwhile. And so just thinking about the role of the brand as this playground, right, where people can come to connect. Kind of started to unlock something for me. And we were working with Partyland at the time, and they ended up coming back to us after we had a lot of conversations about that idea with a line that is together for whatever. And I think that's exactly it. That's what Twitch is. And it kind of started to open the aperture of, like. So that was a big. It was a big, I think, unlock for us about the role of who we are and how we can kind of help streamers and let them have fun, but also, you know, just get out of the way and make sure it's a good time for them. And then that together for whatever really kind of came from just, they're here to hang, and we want to invite people in to do that. And it also became a good platform. You can kind of kind of sub that in for Together for charity, Together for love, Together for. It really helped us expand what we were talking about.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, nice. That's nice. Let's talk about Fansville.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Cause they don't have a spot for Twitch, right?

[Jill Bergeson]

Nope.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Oh, okay. So let's talk about Fansville. We've had a session down in Dallas, and Derek Dabrowski was there. We were talking about. We were talking about Dr. Pepper. We also did a show a couple of weeks ago in our on the Spot series. We included Dr. Pepper. So it's like, in my head. So let's get it out first. Let's get it out.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Let's talk about it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So where did it all begin?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Oh, man, I have to go back. You know, we're now in the middle of our eighth season, which is very fun. And we talk about it like, you know, we're a little dorky. We talk about it's a fake TV show, right? So we talk about it in seasons, and they're not ads, they're episodes. And, you know, so.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, but don't jump ahead like that. Come back a little bit.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Okay.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

How do you get to the idea of this show, this fake show? Cause you had. There was Larry Culpepper, Right. You then had the task because that was a great campaign. It sort of fell apart because of things that were out of the agency's control. Then you had to sort of come up with a new platform. Where did that idea for doing something like that even come from?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, I mean, I think we learned a lot of lessons with Larry. We'd done Larry for about four seasons, and we had kind of like, pilot tested what we wanted to do with that media we had a lot of media in a very specific time during college football. And so the original Larry Culpepper brief was to talk about. It was a one spot to talk about the Dr. Pepper's sponsorship of the championship trophy. And we immediately went to Klein's, like, we cannot just show one spot during every college football game for six months. People will kill you. People on Twitter being like, stop this spot. You know, the wear out would have been enormous. And they agreed. And when we landed on this campaign, it ended up going from one spot to three spots to. Then it was so successful, we did another spot and then Walmart wanted a spot. And so it grew in that regard. But at the end of Larry Culpepper, it was very focused on this one character. And so when that campaign went away, as we were being briefed to kind of come up with something new, we'd learned so much about the episodic nature of how we wanted this campaign to roll out. And we wanted it to be contextual to different parts of the college football season. So there's the excitement of the launch. Everyone's excited. The off season's been so long. And so we always kind of try to capitalize on that. We know that during the season certain things might happen and there's gonna be the playoffs, and as the teams get selected, there's gonna be upsets. And so we kind of had known how to roll this out. And so it just started making sense for us to create a fictional TV show. But it wasn't just about doing that because that made sense for the media. It was about, listen, if you think about sports and you think about sports entertainment, and again, to John's point, and about trying to be entertaining. That's what we're trying to do at Fansville. We're trying to basically attach ourselves to a sport and be additive to the sport. We know people are gonna see these spots a lot, and we want to be additive. We want to be entertaining first and foremost. But the thing about why we ended up on a fake TV show is that throughout our lives, we've been sort of, you know, surrounded by sports movies, sports TV shows. And what do those all have in common? They're always about the team. They're always in the locker room. It's always about the ragtag group that wins the championship or the guy who should never have been on the team, or the team that had to come together. And it's always in the locker room. It's never really in the stands. That's always maybe a Tertiary part of the story, maybe the wife or something, but it's never focused on the family. And so we were just like, man, what if we turn the drama that's always in these sports movies and we turned it to the fans and we. Because if you think about it, it almost makes more sense because the fans care more than the players. Sometimes, like I watch a NFL game and I'm like, devastated that the team lost. And then you see the players afterwards, just like on the 50 yard line, hugging the other guys from the other team because maybe they're buddies and. And you're like, they're not even mad. So upset. I'm very upset right now. And they don't even care because, you know, they're millionaires and they're going to drive off in their Ferraris. But fans care. Fans are like, you know, like crying. And so you live and die with your team. And so that was how we. And once we had that unlock about. Because again, the original concept, the Abbott brothers, who are an awesome, sports loving, creative team, brought this idea. It was called field of Goals and it was actually more about a team. And we were like laughing about some of the spots they had, but it just still felt like this is about the team. We're not for this. And again, this is a strategic unlock that we had. And Mitch Politin, who was our strategist at the time and was here, at some point he might have walked away, but we kind of came up with this idea that Gatorade is for the field and for the players. But Dr. Pepper's role is in the stands because, you know, it's, you know, you're not gonna drink a bunch of Dr. Pepper and then go run, you know, 90 yards for a touchdown. Like you could try, but. And so that was the idea. And that's. Once we had that unlock, the storylines just came out. The idea that we could have this ensemble cast which was so different from the Larry campaign, where it was very focused on this one funny character. Well, now we have this cast. We've got the sheriff, we've got the, you know, the family, we've got the tailgaters, we've got the star crossed lovers that are fans of different teams. And not only are there fans of different teams, they also have like, different philosophies on how they play football. And like, you know, these fans had to be. And this is something Amanda and I talk about all the time, is like, sports fans are pretty insane. And they kind of get more insane every year.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

That's right.

[Ryan Lehrer]

But our Fansville fans always have to like one up them and it almost become. It's almost. I feel like it's almost an arms race now because I, like, feel like fans just keep getting crazier and crazier and now our fans have to even get more sort of irrational as well. But once we had that unlock about the drama being in the stands, it just, it untaps so many stories and enough stories that we're now eight years in and we do about 10, 15 pieces of content a year and we've still got more in the hopper, I think, knock on wood. I mean, we're hoping like 10 years in a movie.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

It is nice. I mean, it is pretty incredible. Let's play a spot for Fansville on a forbidden Fansville by Dr. Pepper Moan.

[Voiceover/Actor in ads]

We can't. But Julia, our rivals.

[John Deschner]

I can love you and still hate your overrated school.

[Voiceover/Actor in ads]

We have two different defensive philosophies. You're a base for a 3 cover.

[John Deschner]

Too, and I'm an aggressive 34 with press coverage. I get it.

[Ryan Lehrer]

But we both love Dr. Pepper.

[Jason Carley]

Oh, Ramon.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Touchdown.

[Jill Bergeson]

Yes.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Into your face, Dr. Pepper.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

The official drink of Fansville.

[Ryan Lehrer]

And one of the things too, I mean, it's. In the course of this eight years, the sport of college football has undergone this drastic change of conference realignment, Nil, where players can get paid rule changes. And so it's just been this enormous amount of material for us to draft off of, similar to how John was talking. Again, we're not able to do things that in like a day or two, switching, like the astronomer stuff, but we are able to like, draft on these things that are basically ripped from the headlines. We kind of joke that we're like Law and Order, you know, because, you know, stuff happens and like Nil gets approved. And we were the first brand to feature an Nil athlete in a national ad campaign. And, you know, the transfer portal becomes a big, you know, storyline in college football and we're able to. To create a spot and it feels then very contextual, feels very relevant. Even though we're maybe shooting all of our work in July, we're able to sort of parse out, be a little bit predictive on what the storylines are going to be. And we have a episode that just came out last week about coaches be on the hot seat and we've been able to put that out and just get so much play because there's all these coaches being fired left and right already. But again, you know, that's going to happen every time. And so you can. Even though you are sort of having to sort of concept these things in isolation or before the season, you kind of can predict what the storylines are going to be because we can't get super specific. You know, we're not allowed. We don't have those rights. But it allows us to play in that space and be a part of the conversation.

[Amanda Shapiro]

And I think it was a big strategic unlock for us and why I think we've been able to do this so many years. We've gone from kind of of reflecting fandom in kind of superstition and rituals to reflecting fandom as it relates to the changes of the game.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So before we take questions, I want to do a quick round robin here. Quick fire. I'd like each of you just to give us some of your insights. Hate that word, but give us some thoughts on, as strategists or as creatives, what do we need to be doing more of and less of? So more of this, Less of this. If we want to get to these sort of great unlock moments that make great work possible. And it could be that people are stuck. It could be that people are just trying to figure out where to point themselves or what they should be doing and not be doing. But I'm going to almost spin the table here and start with Amanda.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Okay.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

More of and less of.

[Amanda Shapiro]

More of, like, reading, scrolling, existing, talking, connecting. Less of focusing on the problem. Like, I think if you really try to, like, focus on the problem, like, you kind of have to look, like, adjacent to problems and look at the periphery. And I think, like, inspiration comes from, like, less interrogation of the thing and more, like, what surrounds it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

So it's both what surrounds it and what has nothing to do with it.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Like, and I think if the problem, the. The problem's always in your head, but the more you kind of, like, read or exist in the world or talk to people, you just, like, make connections. I think it's the difference between being, like, in a business and on a business. It's like, if you have, like, kind of a purview to, I don't know, a bigger picture, then, like, you can start making different connections.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

I'll go to Jill, then I'll go to Jason. Okay.

[Jill Bergeson]

I'd say more IRL stuff. Like, once a. You know, once a planner gets a brief in their head, it's like. It's like a lens goes down. Right. And I'm just assuming, like, that with creative, too, you start seeing the world with, like, oh, my God, do this. We can do that. And that. And so I think when people go out and do stuff, go to concerts, do whatever, see their friends, go to parties, like, they come back with a lot more than the scroll. And now I think then the. Like the ChatGPT or, you know, all the. All the things, because we're all on the same algorithm. Like, I'll see the same insights from different teams, and it's like, wow, we're reading the same stuff. So we just. You got to kind of throw it off a little bit and get out there.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Nice, Jason. Then I'll come to John.

[Jason Carley]

For me, it's. I think it's more of not needing the strategy to fit in a certain box or hit a certain really lofty altitude. I think sometimes. Sometimes that's fantastic. Like, it can. Like, one of the other thing that Jill and I worked on, the strategy was like, you know, we were a brand in last place, and it was like, pick a fight with number one, because then people will just assume you're number two. Which was a great strategy. That wasn't like what we were trying to say. That was like a how kind of strategy, not a what kind of strategy. And so. But I feel like it's just kind of knowing or intuitively kind of just deciding, like, they don't all have to be these big, big, lofty, insightful strategies. Sometimes a clear, simple strategy is right for that moment, and sometimes, sometimes something larger that depositions somebody or puts you in a new space is right, too. Less of the term strategy as filter is something I really dislike. It's become strategy as filter.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

What does that mean?

[Jason Carley]

I mean, I think it's a polite way of kind of when we're ultimately kind of like trying to beat the creative into the brief, rather than what these guys were talking about of like. Like finding a way to bridge the gap between the brief and maybe the idea that is ultimately right or something that people are going to react to or love.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Right. So of course we get criticized for that. Right. Because we become like, well, you're trying to make us make the case for an idea, but that's not what you're suggesting, right?

[Jason Carley]

No, not if something's like, all the way off strategy. But, yeah, I just. I've always loved the. I don't know if it was Jonathan Steele or one of those that's like, you write from a brief not to it and, like, having that little bit of, like that upward funnel of like, it might not be exactly what we're imagining, but it's not far enough off that it's worth disregarding.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

And it's better.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

It's interesting.

[Ryan Lehrer]

You want your brief to be showing, right?

[Jason Carley]

That too. Yeah.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

I don't know about that. I don't fully buy that statement, but I get your point. More of and less of.

[John Deschner]

Well, I think there's something we talk about a lot, which is too much time and too much money ruins everything. And again, some of this, a lot of. Obviously, a lot of what we do comes from the entertainment world. And I think you have only to look at, like, D.C. pre James Gunn to realize what way too much money and way too much time can do to an idea. So I think sometimes, like, just put, like, mashing yourself into some kind of what can feel like crazy constraints.

[Ryan Lehrer]

The Snyder fans are gonna come after you.

[John Deschner]

They're pretty yoked, too. It's a little bit heavy. So I think that. I think just like that. I think trying to make things bigger or always trying to have more time, more scale, more spectacle can really choke out a good idea. It also makes things super risky for everybody involved. If you're like, this is $10 million, you're like, oh, my God, we have to focus group test this. And I've. Yeah, I hate focus groups. They're the worst. It's like people who have that kind of time and really like to be heard. And then I think. I think the other thing. We were talking about this a bunch. We were talking about this a bunch last summer. And I think this is really important, especially in the States right now, is this, like, we were talking about, like, some of the things that we've done that have done well and things that we've done that have just, like, totally fizzled, you know, thankfully, we haven't, like, deeply offended anybody, but. But we put stuff out that, like, nobody sees or, like, you know, 10 people see it because we do so much. That's, like, earned media driven. There's a Yakov Smirnoff spot that is fucking gold that, like, four people have seen. And you should all go look it up. We got Yakov Smirnoff to change his name to Yakov Aviation. American gin for one day. Just turns out nobody cares about Yakov Smirnoff.

[Jason Carley]

That's amazing.

[John Deschner]

Except me.

[Jason Carley]

And Judy Tenouda probably watched it.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yes, you're right.

[Ryan Lehrer]

All the 80s stand up. The gimmicky ones.

[John Deschner]

Howie Mandel was, like, amazing.

[Jason Carley]

Jonathan was like, this is fire.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Is Gallagher on Ryan Reynolds Rolodex? Isn't he dead? Didn't he die? Am I wrong about that? Potentially.

[Jason Carley]

Okay, One of the.

[John Deschner]

No, but then I think the other thing we're talking. We're talking about is like, with just like, it is a. It is a dark and weird time. It's like very easy. It's very easy to step in and like, piss off half the people and. But I think if what you. If you really were experiencing joy, coming up with something and making it like. If it was just really like a joyful experience some that. That. That creates its own amplification effect. I think that's. So that's like the. The more of like less time, less money around each individual thing. We should all be wealthy, obviously, but. But then like on the other side, like just doing those things to actually, like, create real sort of of like joy. And I think again, you can see that when it gets made and gets.

[Amanda Shapiro]

Out in the world.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah, that's something we talk about a lot too, is actually that you. There's work. You can tell people had fun making it. And like, Fansville is one of those, like. It's just. You just feel it. Yeah, you do.

[John Deschner]

It's like gleeful. It's mischievous.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It's like when I watch Swear Jar or even when I'm watching the astronomer stuff, I can like, hear people laughing.

[Jason Carley]

We had takes fully ruined by the dp.

[John Deschner]

Literally.

[Jason Carley]

The DP would just. You'd suddenly just see the camera and we'd have.

[Ryan Lehrer]

And I'm like, I guarantee there's like another cut of that. That's justice. Yeah, that like, is totally different.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah. So more of. Unless of for you. You know, I have.

[Ryan Lehrer]

It's like there. It's kind of like a, A and B one. I would say first, it's more entertaining, less advertising. And I think, you know, even John would attest and even, you know, talking about that swear jar, that's just a funny thing to watch. You know, it's. It's entertaining. And I think in the way that we sort of filter that for like Fansville, it's like, yes, more entertaining, less advertising. It's act like a fan, not a brand. And I think that if brands acted like that and acted more like, you know, tried to just be additive to the space, I just think that people don't want to be like them, advertise to. They want to be entertained, you know. And so I think if you're going to interrupt someone's time, someone's day, someone's show, someone's game, it's like, let's at least have a little fun, you know.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Let'S go for some questions. From we have probably time just for one or two questions. I think we have a microphone somewhere. Anybody just raise your hand if you have a question that you. You would like to share. Go ahead. Thank you. Go ahead. What's your name?

[Jason Carley]

My name is Garrett.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Amazon. Gareth.

[Jason Carley]

Yes. So I think with Magic Moment, it's very. I wouldn't say easy, but like, I think they come from like when you're working on something new, but with the.

[John Deschner]

Push to like creative consistency and kind.

[Jason Carley]

Of repeating constructs and platforms. I'm curious on how you would approach finding those magic moments when you're kind of. Fansville could be a good example, but when you're trying to create something new.

[John Deschner]

Out of something very familiar.

[Amanda Shapiro]

I love that question so much. 2.0 strategies are my favorite to work on. I think they are the most interesting challenge and I think the hack to it is identifying what in culture has shifted. Did like there's like nothing in culture is static. So what is new? That proves out the same strategy, but in a really fresh way. And usually that's where kind of like that's exactly what happened with Fansville. The sport started shifting. So we looked at the culture of sport and how it changed and still landed the same strategy, but kind of unlocked new thinking.

[Ryan Lehrer]

Yeah. I think it helps too that Fansville is seasonal, you know, and so it goes dormant for about half the year and. And it's attached to something that people are very passionate about. But it's a really good question. I think Fansville has a little bit of an edge in that way, is that we aren't on air all year long and that sort of gives us a little bit of leeway. People, by the time we come back on, people are excited about college football and they see Fansville. It's almost like when you're excited about Christmas and you start seeing all the Christmas decorations in August now. I think in the store.

[Jason Carley]

That's right.

[Ryan Lehrer]

But you know, but what you try to do is just unlock new stories, new narratives. But I'll tell you, we have just as much fun on a Fansville set or in the edit. And the response to the Fansville work to us just feels super fresh and people are still very excited about it. It's become sort of part of the football landscape. And that's exciting too because you almost have a responsibility to the fans now of the sport of the campaign to one up it. And we always joke every year is going to be the best year Fansville.

[Amanda Shapiro]

And it is.

[Jason Carley]

Yeah.

[John Deschner]

I think too how you interpret consistency. I think Is important because the. And again if you have something that's working and it's great and this is what's magical about sport is there's always something great. You're playing in a really well understood world with a lot of love and energy built into it. But that idea I think of.

[Jill Bergeson]

How.

[John Deschner]

Like how consistent you're trying to be. Like I think even the construct of a campaign is mostly for media planners and internal marketing. People like consumers don't care, they're not waiting for it. So it's, I think, I think that idea of like. So whether you can think of consistency as like we want to create a consistent feeling, like there should be the same emotional note that we hit and if we do that we'll actually build sort of, you know, emotional brand moat around the brand. I think so just how you interpret consistency and actually, you know, CPG companies and tech companies and banks right now are doing like way too much of it. You know, they're just like, they're like well we found this thing so let's ride it right into the sun. But they also have like I feel attacked. So, but so that's what I think. I think being able to say like, you know, like I think sometimes finding to your point about a 2.0 strategy, like what's something that is unexpected but when we see it, it feels right. And if it, you know, if you get those two things you find that overlap, I think you may have found something that can still be consistent for the brand but isn't going to just be like this fizzy water equals happiness. Because it doesn't. So anyway.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Is there another question? Great. I think this guy up here in the middle in the bleach. If anybody else has a quick question, we'll come over here too. Next please. Go ahead.

[Jason Carley]

Hey, my name is Moche and yeah, I just wanted to get your guys perspective of on what makes a good strategist in your eyes. You know, from all the teams that you worked with, from all the walks of life you had what makes them stand out?

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Interesting.

[Jason Carley]

I think someone who's really curious. I feel like the best strategists are like fascinated by simple behaviors, human behaviors, trends. Like. Yeah, for me, curiosity.

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah. And I think the yes and for that is definitely they have to be curious. But then they. There's something we like to talk about is this blue collar strategy approach and you have to make it something that people can use because there's a lot of pontification or just kind of like wank around the thing. Sorry you're right. But it's true. And that is boring. And I think we need to make sure that it's something that's gonna spark for people. And that is a skill that you learn into. But it starts with curiosity.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Curiosity and somebody with taste. I think taste is really important if you have both of those things, taste, and really strong of, really a sense of curiosity that you want to understand something. So it becomes less about coming up with an unlock and more about coming to the table with understanding. Some of the best strategists I talk to, they always surprise me because that's what they're bringing. They're not wanking around with bullshit, and they're not just trying to parse it down to three little words. But when you talk to them for a short period of time, you're like.

[Jill Bergeson]

Your brain turns on. Yeah.

[Jason Carley]

I also find that they're good writers. The best strategists are really good writers. They can say the same thing 10 different ways, because every single different adjective in that brief might trigger a different thought or campaign. That's absolutely crucial. And so being able to write on something focused but, like, clearly and concisely a bunch of different ways. I love a brief like that.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Good point. Let's come over here for the next question.

[Audience Member Lisa Ivey]

Hey, y', all, thanks. This is a really great talk to listen to. My name's Lisa Ivey, and I just had a question about just magic. Right. A lot of it sometimes requires risk. Like, willing to, like, put your neck out there and, you know, do the unexpected thing. And how do you get your clients to make brave moves?

[Amanda Shapiro]

Right.

[Audience Member Lisa Ivey]

How do you get them to. To really wanna take those risks? I know a lot of it is about being breakthrough, but sometimes these CMOs got, like, six months on the line, and yet they have to be able to make these calculated risks. So how do you guys convince them that this is the right thing to do?

[Ryan Lehrer]

Easier said than done, right? To be brave. Everyone's like, oh, we're gonna be brave. But, yeah, it's hard. I mean, that's part of our job, is to be. To be convincing and to sell them on the idea that the most dangerous thing to do is to be safe. And in this day and age where the media landscape is so fractured and you have to do something that's going to stand out or it's just going to be ignored. And so I think it's hard, but you build compelling strategy, you build compelling decks that talk about why this is the idea you have to do.

[Jill Bergeson]

Yeah. And I think that's where the trifecta where understanding the business deeply with the account team and then understanding the data and the research and that tool from strategy and then really just kind of the magic of it all and making them feel something. It has to be combined and on repeat. It's like clearing the ice every single time to help them make the shot. Because it is like we're the ones that. That we can say, be brave all you want, but it's not us on the line, it's their names.

[John Deschner]

Remind them of how much they're gonna spend in media and that the creative and production is actually like 4% of that.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Yeah, that's a big point.

[John Deschner]

I mean, I do think it is. One of the things we try to do is actually de risk it. Like de risk any individual thing, which it's tough. If someone's bought a Super bowl ad, there's no de risking that. That's gonna be big, it's gonna be expensive, and if you screw it up, everyone's going to notice. But I do think trying to. When it doesn't have to be, if you can keep something, like, a little bit more tight in terms of time and money and be like, let's try this once. But we can try it once, we can put out. And I think that then if it's like, well, man, that worked. Our first ever super bowl ad was not even meant to be a Super bowl ad. And then it sort of. The CEO of this company saw it and was like, we're making a Super bowl ad. And then the next year they're like, we have to do another one and we got to do crazy stuff with Channing Tatum.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

But the risk, the risk. You gotta reframe risk. Risk is not getting noticed.

[Amanda Shapiro]

That's right.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Right. And I think what's brilliant in the last 12 months, 24 months, there's now no excuse to be producing shitty work. You know, most of what this industry produces, dull, it's wasteful, doesn't come from shops like this, but it does come from most places. And I think the business case is now being made by people that are helping you understand that people, so many of them who've gotten involved work has gotten involved with them in helping make the business case to a client that the risk is if you don't do great work, you're not going to get people's attention and you're going to waste all of this massive amount of money. So reframe it. The risk is doing dull work and too much of it is done well. I wanted to wrap it up there. Thank you to our panel for being a part of this conversation.

[John Deschner]

Like a chess match.

[Host/Moderator (possibly Fergus O'Carroll or another host)]

Thank you to everybody here at Deutsch for having us and for hosting us here. Thank you to our supporters, our sponsor and our tour supporters. We're going to launch London next month and then we're do it again. Pack your bags, Carly. It's great. So thank you to everybody. Thank you all for coming here and we'll see everybody on the next episode.