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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus Ocarol in Chicago. We were just recently in London. It was back in November 10, on November 10, which was we were there for the Effies for the UK gala, which was a terrific night and we've done a recording on that, which you can check back a couple of weeks ago. But the day prior to that we got together with a group of some of the best strategists and creatives in London for a conversation about the year. That was in 2024. Mother was kind enough to host us and it was an experiment of sorts because we did not want to have an audience. Normally our shows are in larger spaces with a couple of hundred people as audience and I wanted to try this as a no audience event. And so that's why you're not going to hear a lot of background noise. And there wasn't a lot of promotion of this in advance. So imagine as a large room at Mother. We had a round table, literally, and we had five people joining me around that table and we did not video record this, so you won't be able to watch it on our YouTube channel. So you'll have to imagine it as we go around this table and you hear various voices. But we were joined by Martin Beverly who is co founder and chief strategy officer for the new creative company called Ace of Hearts in London. He was previously Adamant Neves Chief Strategy Officer Mel Arrow is CEO of McCann London and she joins us. She was just promoted into that position this year and was previously Chief Strategy officer, which is what made her a perfect person to be around the table. Paula Bloodworth also joins as co founder of Alien Baby with Idris Elba. She and Idris Elba have worked together for the last couple of years and the actor has been doing some brilliant things under Paula's partnership. So it's been terrific. Paula previously was inside Wieden and Kennedy. She's in other places uncommon in London. She's been a guest on the show a number of times. Alex Grieve is global and London Chief Creative Officer for BBH and he joins us around the table also. And lastly, Chris Gallery is Chief Strategy Officer at Mother in London. Now we really just sort of teed up a couple of key questions for people to talk about which was number one. And since we were doing this on the eve of the Effies, we couldn't say who had won Effies and I knew who had won and what they had won. But it's a little different than it is Here in the us, in the uk they don't even know if they've won any Effie even though they're attending. So I was excited to know but not being able to share the fact that McCann, Mal Arrows agency McCann London was a massive winner the following night at the Effie with Neurofin, with Dettol, with Xbox. And so it was kind of interesting to know what was coming the next day for them and to hear some of Mel's comments about the importance of big agencies. Even though big agencies are sort of struggling with their overall reputation for creativity, yet the next day Mel and McCann won so big at the Effie's. Also winning big at the Effie's were Adam and Eve with their com work which is a brilliant body of work. If you haven't seen it, you can see it on our website. And Mother themselves were gonna win big with Uber that following night. So this was really a conversation to talk about 2024, to talk about the work that this group of people really enjoyed in 2024 and just basically to get a pulse on what was on their minds. I hope you'll enjoy was a great experiment. We're going to do these again. We're going to add them to our live tour. These more private round with a very minimal audience going forward, just special invited guests, maybe 10 or 20 people. So I hope they'll be equally as successful going forward. So enjoy my conversation. This took place at Mother in London with five terrific guests. I hope you'll enjoy it. We'll be right back. Our live tour is brought to you by the Effie's on Strategy Showcase is thrilled to be the official podcast partner of the Effie's. For over 55 years Effie has been the global authority on marketing effectiveness. They lead the way with the largest, most prestigious marketing Effectiveness awards across 130 markets worldwide with their coveted EFFIE Index ranking the most effective brands, marketers and agencies globally. But EFFIE is more than awards. They're dedicated to helping all marketers, from seasoned CMOs to those just getting started, understand what makes marketing effective by equipping them with insights, tools and inspiration they need to succeed more@effie.org Our tour is also brought to you by Tracksuit. Tracksuit's a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose Budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking without the big price T our in house research experts do the heavy lifting using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. More information@gotracksuit.com Our tour is also brought to you by Ipsos Creative Excellence, the experts in using research to inspire and empower creativity. Every marketer knows the best creative work starts with a strong brief. Yet the reality is many briefs that brands give their agencies miss the mark. In fact, Ipsos found that only 5% of brand marketers say the quality of their briefs is really good. That's why Ipsos created Creative Fuel. Creative Fuel is strategy research designed to help brands ensure the messages in their brief are something both their audiences and their agencies can get excited about. With Creative Fuel, marketers can build confidence and buy in around the kind of simple, bold, empathetic strategies that inspire the caliber of work we're discussing today. So if you want to start fueling your next campaign with strategy that really moves the needle, check out Ipsos Creative Excellence and their Creative Fuel solution. More info@ipsos.com that's Ipsos I P S O S.com now back to the show.
- [07:08]
B
So we're here to talk about the year that was here in the uk. I mean, there's been some changes here, there's been some great work that's come out of here, but I'm curious, maybe if I could, can I start out with Alex? What kind of a year has it been and what's excited you about the year?
- [07:26]
C
I think in all candor, it's been a challenging year. I think there are headwinds in the industry that make things difficult. A lot of those things are actually quite exciting, but at the same time they inject a sense of fear into the system. And I think anytime you have that sense of fear, creativity tends to tighten slightly. And so what I hope is that we move past that thing and the mindset shifts where the rise of all these new things that are emerging become seen more as tools and friendly things rather than dangerous, scary things. Things might relax a bit. It does feel like there's this constant cycle of challenges and global kind of events that we have to deal with. And a lot of that depends what kind of mindset you have now. I quite enjoy the challenge of those things because change is inevitable and leaning into it can be quite exciting. But not everyone feels like that.
- [08:33]
B
Chris, how about you?
- [08:34]
D
In the past year, looking at things that made me excited, I think the Oasis reunion was an amazing thing. It was just the sheer excitement of people that got tickets and went with all of their old friends and gangs of people to those concerts. Obviously, very big deal here in the uk, but all around the world there was people doing it. And I think that it was just huge. And the scale of what they did and the excitement that they created just reminded us that things can be big and exciting and not just niche and small for small cultures. So I think that was hugely exciting and how that was intergenerational and how that. And then weaving it back into how brands engage with that, that's where on very different end of the spectrum, that's where I see lots of excitement and different behaviors, is the just amazing opportunities for people that can do it well and be authentic to interact with culture properly. So, for example, something like how Adidas showed up with the Oasis tour, it wasn't just merch as a thing. They created a whole event around it and really quality merch that people wanted and queued up all around the world.
- [09:32]
C
I think it's a really good point and maybe merits further discussion. The power of getting big things right is extraordinary as a sense of optimism and something interesting that's happening in culture and society. I mean, I, as well as Oasis, I've got two daughters and we went to the Taylor Swift concert and just. That was an incredible kind of event. Just extraordinary power of her brand and just the different communities all going and being in that space together, it was just like filled with joy and love. It was a genuinely beautiful kind of experience. And it's not like Taylor Swift, I'm not like a mad fan, but it's like one of the best concerts I've ever been to. It's fucking amazing. It's like kind of like, I imagine like a big Texas church or something.
- [10:15]
E
Like that, you know, all of the things that have brought us together this year, whether it's Lily Allen's album, whether it's the Oasis reunion, whether it's the traitors, they all have an element of playing with the human condition and psyche and cutting to something truthful about what makes us us. I think, right.
- [10:34]
F
It's a vulnerability that I think people are attracted to. And the more. I mean, I'm with you. I love Lillian. So I think music in general, I mean, music is a struggling industry, right? They've got challenges in itself, but I was the same. It was sort of a beacon of hope with Oasis and Taylor Swift. I mean, my kid dances to it as well. And then even the Fred again stuff that he announced recently 10 cities, 10 tracks. Like, the power is going in with the artists and they're just creating, but at the same time they're showing vulnerability, which I think is probably the only key to authenticity, to your point, and people leaning in more than. And to learn from brand worlds. I'd say these artists aren't doing it with, like, loads of teams and massive processes and layers of bureaucracy. They're just. They're just leading with their vulnerability and ideas and putting stuff out there. And I think it's getting the traction and the audiences and they're changing.
- [11:26]
G
I mean, I do think, like the other guys have been saying, I love the moments in culture where everyone kind of comes together, because I think there are times when everything can feel a bit bleak and it feels like everyone's kind of in pockets or everyone's on their mobile phone all the time and we're not connecting as much. And that's the kind of rhetoric that you hear all of the time. But I think that means that there's a craving for us actually connecting and actually doing some of the stuff that we're talking about here, whether that's albums or live shows or Alex Greave being a swiftie. All of those things are kind of. They're just very human. And I think that's what brands should be doing at their best, is trying to be part of those moments or create them themselves.
- [12:08]
B
So, Chris, earlier you talked about. When we were talking earlier, you were talking about the sort of the national mood and how you play into that as a strategist and as an advisor to brands. Tell us a little bit about that, that mood and the impact that it's having.
- [12:22]
D
I guess you just have to be conscious all the time to not be tone deaf when you go into any context you're putting work into or your point of view into. So that affects all work forever, and particularly within a national zeitgeist that is a bit downbeat. You don't want to just play into that, but you can't be blindly optimistic either at the same time. So we talk about optimism, but how you bring that with some kind of truth as well is, I guess, important. I think probably Coinbase is a good example of that. For us, it could be read as something that work we did, that everything is fine. It was a musical kind of representation of what we hear people talking about on the radio in Britain all the time. It really is. You know, if you tune into Radio 5, any of those talk shows, any day, you hear about strikes and worries for bills and spin strikes and all that kind of stuff and that. So we're reflective of that, but with an optimism that there could be another way.
- [13:18]
B
Everything is just fine Everything is great.
- [13:24]
E
The streets can't get no cleaner Nor.
- [13:26]
B
The rat me any leaner no, life is just as great Everything is just.
- [13:33]
F
Fine these fish fingers are a steal.
- [13:35]
E
Price is up a smear just 100 quid a meal empty purse. But hey, could be worse if there.
- [13:41]
C
Was nothing in the fridge.
- [13:44]
B
Was it a good year for UK advertising? But seriously, I mean, when you look at the body of work, do you think it was one of the better years?
- [13:54]
G
I don't know. I think it's hard because I wouldn't instinctively think it's a vintage year. But then I also don't want to kind of subscribe to the sort of, oh, it's not as good as the old days thing because I don't know if you've ever seen the film Midnight in Paris. It's a Woody Allen film. I'm not like that artist, just the one Woody Allen film I've seen, but he. In that film they talk about golden age thinking where everyone wishes they lived 30 years before because it's where everyone said it was really good in those old. So I don't know, I mean, I still think there's lots of great work out there. I was gonna talk about KFC just cause I'm in mother and I thought, I want Chris to like. I love that work because it's weird and it's wonderful. And I recently ranted it certainly is weird, isn't it?
- [14:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:41]
G
But I recently ranted in a campaign article about why are there no people's awards? So there's creative awards where lots of creative types go and vote for work that they love. But there's very few people's awards where you actually ask the public what did they love? So we've created this survey to find out which the public love. And halfway through the year, I know KFC was in there and I was really pleased to see it because it's a weird and wonderful thing that the industry loves. But I think the public also see it and think that's a bit mad. But I kind of love it. It's this cult and then it runs all the way through into the other work. So I still think there's brilliant work out there and I think sometimes we've just got to be better at championing it a little bit than maybe we perhaps do.
- [15:23]
B
Yeah.
- [15:24]
C
It's also impossible to kind of judge those eras as well against one. It's like that thing of trying to compare footballers from the 70s to today. It's. I mean, when I started there was four disciplines, roughly, tv, print, poster, radio, and then what we called ambient or other. And people have been doing that for 30 years. And it's like. It's a specialization. If you make chairs for 30 years, you're going to get really good at making chairs. And now we've moved to a thing where, you know, we have to install the wiring and the plumbing and the heating and stuff like that, because you can do anything. So we're more generalists. So I think it's going to take time for that work to kind of catch up. And it's kind of impossible to compare a TV ad today from a TV ad from yesterday. But like Bevo said, I think the cream of the very best work at the top is still absolutely brilliant. It's just maybe that layer of cream is a bit thinner than it has been in the past. But I think you have to be. The optimism I have is that seeing that kind of level of work, it doesn't. We can all do it. We just need to do more of it and to persuade more clients to do it. And that's, you know, an amazing point you make about a lot of that is just investing the time as well in creativity, but also in the relationships with clients to get them to kind of do it. That's a hugely undervalued factor, I think.
- [16:55]
B
Why is it getting thinner at the top?
- [16:58]
C
I don't know. I think it's never been easier to make mediocre work and never been harder to make great work, because I think there is a process where through the journey and a lot of this is to do with relationships with clients. And what's the average tenure of a CMO is now 14 months or something. And then organizations are bigger and there's more levels. Things get the edges clipped off them. And listen, on the other side, within agencies, there are multiple layers of people as well that you have to go through. I mean, I'm a huge advocate of. Not that it's the same, but a kind of mantra. Small empowered teams get shit done and just organizing things as much as you can, where there's just a few empowered, brilliant people doing some stuff and a lot of it's just getting out the way and we're not doing that some more because we're involving more people, because we're probably charging for them on both sides and stuff like that.
- [18:00]
B
And it's so is it a year of transition or are we going through. Because my impression in going through, even prepping for our conversation, when I asked you guys to send me examples, including the two people that aren't here, a lot of it wasn't even advertising.
- [18:17]
C
Well, that's part of the thing about generalization and stuff like that.
- [18:20]
B
Yeah. I'm like, are we in essence saying that the best work, that much of the best work is being done by people who aren't even in this industry? That word admiring. And what does that mean for us around this table? I mean, I'm not saying that you guys are doing work that you're not proud of. I'm sure you're doing some of it. But it's strange that I didn't get the sense that I would have thought that maybe a couple of years ago it would have been this campaign, this campaign. This time it was this campaign on this thing, like your example with the New York City mayor, that conversation. Has something changed?
- [18:56]
D
I feel like there's always been like 15 years ago, people were giving the Obama campaign as a reference point. I mean, it's like there's always been, you know, as people get inspired by creative things, we're always looking to, I guess, something out in the world, whether it's the Lego Movie or the Obama thing, like things that break the roof, rules of how you engage with audiences. And I don't think that's different. I think there's lots of good work out there. I think the traditional means that we all see it are different. And look, frankly, it's really hard for people to get a press shot of some of the type of work that is really good these days. Everything isn't a film or isn't a simple to read post or a poster. There's really great activations happening that are one of my favorite things we've done here. On the other end of the spectrum of Claude is we partnered KFC and Gregg's to do a gravy sausage roll. It's just a great idea. It's not a great poster or a great film or a great thing. And I think there's loads of that happening all around in the UK and there's just different types of agencies doing it. The agency landscape's changed a lot. How you see that work in the press has changed a lot. And yeah, I'm really. I see loads of good things.
- [20:01]
F
I think, like, I agree with you that we've always looked at other industries for inspiration. That will always keep happening. Artists will Constantly come of, keep batting above their weight. I do feel like there's less but I'm kind of hoping that maybe it is a transition year that we can look to these things that are happening in culture, in, in fashion and music, in artists and go. Because so much of marketing is more about insurance than growth at the moment. And, and maybe we do need a bit of proof and maybe we can look to these other categories and industries and them doing well and having the business results and having you know, and go well look over here if you need a case study, if you need some proof, look at these industries and take a bigger swing.
- [20:42]
C
I do think selling those things a bit more isn't it? Because there's so many examples that we've probably all chosen. I'll just brand either through naivety or bravery do something different. I mean another example I gave and it probably wasn't done this year so I was probably wrong is like Fitzcarraldo Publishing the kind of books with the Eve Klein blue covers. You go into a bookshop and they just stand out and you go and have a look at their things. It's just. They just do everything different to what everyone else is doing. And so you go in and. And it's not even that new. All they're really doing is copying what Penguin did in the 30s with orange covers and just updating it for the modern era. But it's just those simple things of doing something different and then the product has to justify. Then it's up to them to do really good, interesting books that will people buy them. But you got people's attention, haven't you? And like you when you said I just. I don't understand why more brands and CMOs aren't doing it. Because it seems the evidence is all there. Yes, but instead of blaming them it's our thing to sell the message better to create better relationships and to. And to do that. It's on us as well. I think a lot of the negativity comes and we rant against the world and rail when it's within our gift and responsibility to try and change it because we know what the answer is. But if we can't sell it then we're not doing our jobs.
- [22:13]
B
Martin, I don't want to move ahead with that.
- [22:15]
G
Yeah, well, I was just going to pick up on something which was a little theme in a few previous conversations which is around partnership and long term. So it does feel like the industry's increasingly got short termist and it's more project based and the Danger with that is that you try to give a client what you think they want rather than what they need. Or you're desperately trying to hang on to a client that you need because revenues are declining and then you're not doing the right thing by them and you're not developing the long term relationship, which I think leads to the better work over time. And I think there's now lots of evidence out there for partnership and long termism, paying back and having that compound effect. And I was talking to Rick, one of my partners at Ace of Hearts, about this the other day in how you can create this sort of compound effect where it feels the same but different. And there was a brilliant talk I went to with Sarah Carter, Les Burnett and Andrew Tindall and they talked about disguised repetition, which I loved. So they were saying, like Monet, there's a style and it's always kind of the same, but people love it. Or Warhol or the Simpsons. It's the same but different. It's a bit like the book example, it's the same but different. So people go, oh, this feels really fresh, but it's kind of also familiar. And I think you can only really build that once you have this kind of relationship together and you start to understand the handwriting of what works. In my opinion, I think you're more likely to get to strong work if you have that partnership over time.
- [23:48]
B
So let's talk about work that you guys have really enjoyed or admired and just for the qualification is that you can't pick something that you yourself produced. Why don't we start off with Chris? Tell us a little bit about an example of something that you've really thought was reflective of great work this year.
- [24:10]
D
I picked the On Running softwinds campaign as a thing I love. I'm a sucker for simplicity of when there's a real line through the product, brand and execution of the line, you look at it and you get it straight away.
- [24:22]
B
Now, what is this? Tell us.
- [24:23]
D
The softwinds is a brand platform from On Running that promotes a gentler approach to running and exercise in general. So to be easy on yourself, not hard on yourself and to get more out of it because of that. So they launched it with Elmo, of course, the Sesame street character. And they did a Super bowl piece which was just an introduction, but then they did a piece where there's a group of runners running hard and he meets them and just does an Elmo, chat with them about maybe taking it a bit easier on themselves and having a better time.
- [24:54]
C
Elmo like soft.
- [24:55]
F
Could that win feeling good? Could that win Running for fun?
- [25:01]
E
Is that a win?
- [25:02]
F
Yeah.
- [25:02]
E
Don't be so hard on yourselves.
- [25:05]
D
So I just love, I love that brand and I love the purity of that as a platform. They carried it on.
- [25:10]
B
Why do you love that brand? What is it?
- [25:11]
D
Well, I think it just brought something new, just something. And how they've showed up and their aesthetics and what they've brought as a product has been fantastic. How they've kind of sprung up around the world, it's genuinely been, I think a good addition to the category. And then to show up and be big and to have a big point of view that's counter to the rest of the category. It's not. Winning isn't everything and it's not the hardness of that. It just feels like it's a fresher voice within that category. And then also I think they went quite big hitting on the execution for technically a smaller brand and went with left field. Going with Elmo as a kind of athletic spokesperson.
- [25:44]
B
Yeah, I never would have thought. I mean that was a bizarre thing for me. Yeah, I love the rationale is behind that.
- [25:49]
D
Well, I think it's as basic as that. He stands for softness and cuddliness but I like the bass level simplicity of that as a thing and that. Why not have a spokesperson that speaks to values of your brand? Like them. The bizarreness of that I always love as well. But they have taken that, I think. Also I like. There aren't a lot of new brand platforms going to celebrate for us. It's a lot of one off hits here. I like this thing, this activation or this stunt or this thing but like an actual pure brand idea that I think can run and run and run. And they have done a follow up campaign with an athlete that kind of speaks to philosophy in a different way.
- [26:25]
B
So it's soft winds is the platform Softwinds. Paul, I have for you an example of something you loved.
- [26:31]
F
I love the Burberry.
- [26:33]
B
I love that too.
- [26:34]
F
Yeah. Pretty much the whole year. And credit to Daniel and I'm talking about the Olivia Colman stuff but actually I was looking at the year and they just have hit after hit and. And you know, I was looking at Daniel Lee and what he's done to that brand and it's interesting.
- [26:48]
B
Who is Daniel?
- [26:49]
F
So he's the creative director, he's the fashion designer.
- [26:51]
A
Inside Burberry.
- [26:52]
F
Inside Burberry.
- [26:53]
C
Okay.
- [26:54]
F
And he was talking about what he wanted to bring to the brand. He said, I went to the archives and figured out what this brand is about. And I'm like, that's what we do. You just go back into the archives of the brand, figure out what is this really brand about. And it's like Britishness. And he talked about all the things that it brings, but while you've got Italian luxury and French luxury, it's all very serious. He's like, britishness is a sense of humor, and it's a great conversation. And it's like, then you can see that bleed through the work. Like, I don't know if you guys saw the. The night just rock up with Naomi Campbell. It's so surprising. And it's. It's a luxury brand. Putting a. A knight next to Naomi Campbell. And then you've got Olivia Coleman in a fish and chip shop. There you go.
- [27:39]
E
Next.
- [27:41]
B
Fish and chips, please.
- [27:42]
E
Just fish and chips.
- [27:43]
B
Yeah.
- [27:45]
C
Coddle haddock.
- [27:47]
F
Tod's a classic. Haddock is tastier, in my opinion.
- [27:51]
G
I'll give you one of each, and.
- [27:52]
F
Then you can compare.
- [27:53]
C
Okay.
- [27:54]
F
Oh, well, you'll be wanting a savoloy. Savoloy battered, of course.
- [27:59]
B
Okay.
- [28:00]
E
Mushy peas and mushy.
- [28:02]
F
I'll give you two. It's just delightful. And. And the Britishness, we. I'm not even British, but I'm married to one. And it's what you want to see. You know, it's the. The side and the conversations and the.
- [28:12]
B
Charming things, and it doesn't follow the formulas that we're told we have to follow in order to be effective.
- [28:19]
F
Yes.
- [28:19]
B
I mean, it almost looks like it's designed for a different media, a different medium than advertising. I mean, how do you think about it?
- [28:29]
E
Yeah.
- [28:29]
F
I actually saw some people saying it should be more branded.
- [28:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [28:33]
F
Absolutely not.
- [28:34]
B
I mean, it's terribly branded. Yeah.
- [28:36]
F
I love it.
- [28:37]
B
In the traditional sense of a single piece of communication should be brandable at every single, you know, segment within a spot. But it's as a body of work, it's well branded. But it's certainly. It's the case where it might be. May not be well branded in an individual film, I think is probably valid.
- [28:55]
F
Yeah.
- [28:56]
B
But I guess they know that.
- [28:57]
F
They do. And I think that's fashion is a confidence, and it's knowing, you know, the values of the brand. But you do see it there. And if, you know, Burberry, which I think's like a huge range of people, do know it, you can see the tart and then the touches, and it just feels like it's going back to its roots. So I found it Refreshing. They weren't jamming the brand down your throat, which is, you know, one do that in fashion and it was entertainment like I wanted to see more of them and I could see longer forms of them versus, yeah I suppose the codes of advertising. I think the whole. That's another highlight for me is the whole fashion industry in general is a lot of them aren't using agencies and their surprising us with experiences and fashion shows and films and social media like that to me is where the richness is.
- [29:45]
B
So Mal. What about a piece of work from this year that you've. That you've loved somebody else has done.
- [29:50]
E
Well, almost in direct contrast to Chris, I chose Nike. Scary Good.
- [29:55]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:56]
E
Which is the campaign about attacking players in football and making.
- [30:02]
B
Is that widened?
- [30:04]
E
It is, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:04]
C
Okay.
- [30:05]
E
London, I think. Yeah. So it's got the feeling of sort of like insomnia and madness built into it, which is, you know, all of the things that I've really gravitated to this year, like the ordinary periodic fable and things like that have a sort of darkness to it. And I don't know whether it's infused with the sort of geopolitics and mood of the world or whatever, but there's a darkness at the heart of this work and it's. Yeah. Exactly the opposite to. On Running is about Christmas Off.
- [30:37]
G
You like scary.
- [30:38]
E
Exactly. Attacking players in football and how.
- [30:42]
B
I actually really like how it's funny than scary.
- [30:44]
E
Yeah, there's a humor to it. Yeah, there's a humor to it. So it's got the sort of.
- [30:47]
F
Yeah.
- [30:48]
E
Feeling of late night TV and psychics and kind of legal infomercials and there's individual player films that are sort of mashed together into one kind of high level.
- [30:56]
B
Does everybody know this?
- [30:57]
D
Have you guys.
- [30:58]
E
Yeah. There's the cool Cole Palmer. Have you been skinned by Cole Palmer? It's really. It's funny, but it's kind of weird and dystopian and I quite like. Actually, I think this is probably like showing a bit of my personality. When I was 13, my dad went to New York on business and came back with this New York Yankees T shirt for me that basically shaped my entire personality. It said don't just play, play to win. And I've taken that very, very seriously for the rest of my career. So I really like that. There is a sort of new wave of particularly sports advertising that has taken a turn for the dark. So whether that's kind of Under Armour be the problem or Nike. Scary Good. It's about Competition and not being afraid to bring your all to the pitch and ruin someone's day. And I quite like that edge, actually.
- [31:50]
D
Have you or someone you love been skinned by Cole Palmer? Worid Cole's highlight re will be your legacy. Take the bull inning. That's embarrassing. Well, fair enough.
- [32:05]
A
To know.
- [32:07]
D
Here at reputational damage specialists, we pinpoint.
- [32:11]
B
The exact cause of your suffering.
- [32:12]
D
Oh, humiliating flip from Cole. Using our gold standard assessment process, we'll create a recovery plan to get you back on that pitch.
- [32:23]
B
How about for you, Alex, What's a highlight?
- [32:27]
C
Well, I'll talk about the main one, but just on the sports thing, one of the things I chose was the under armour be the problem and especially as this is a strategy biased podcast because I don't think the creative execution of that and if he was here, we could have a chat about it with Nils. Yeah, I don't like the creative execution of that at all. But I do think the strategic starting point of that, of heroing the destructive side of the game is a really interesting place to be.
- [32:54]
B
What do you mean by that?
- [32:55]
C
Well, most things I've seen around sport are essentially mainly extolling the beautiful creativity of Brazilian number 10s and this is about the destroyers of the games, the Ngolo Kantes, the Makaleles, those players who go in and fuck everything up for people. And I think that's a very attractive kind of mindset as a kind of.
- [33:18]
B
It's kind of like the Nike.
- [33:21]
C
And it's amazing that it's taken so long for that popular work.
- [33:25]
A
Right?
- [33:25]
C
Yeah. So I thought that was very interesting.
- [33:27]
B
One of the things that's common across probably everything that you guys have talked about tonight is the fact that breaking the rules is critical in marketing. It seems that most of the examples that you've talked to sort of have done that. They've gone against the ordinary, which makes sense. Why aren't more people doing that? I mean, I always struggle with that idea that so much advertising is terrible advertising and marketing is terrible marketing. Is it just something that you guys are good at and other people are going to have to just catch up with the idea that you need to sort of pivot, you need to be different, you need to be distinctive in a truly distinctive way. You need to tell stories differently. I mean, Martin, what's your thought on that?
- [34:14]
G
Well, I think you're right. Like all the best work is different in some way. I mean, that's BBH's positioning for many years is the power of difference. I remember reading about HHCL, which was a brilliant agency back in the 90s. And apparently what they used to do was they would get the planner to effectively create a mood board or a picture of the category. So for example, they would go, oh, all of the car ads, it's always a couple, they're always winding up the road, you see a low shot of the tyre, you see like the forest. And then they would do the opposite. And there is definitely something in doing that in an old school way, which is how does the category behave? And we will break those rules. Now, it can't work every time for every brand, but it's definitely an underutilized strategy. And sometimes I think we're maybe as an industry you get into, oh, this category behaves in this way and this is the kind of best practice. And so this is how it works. And you almost sleepwalk into doing what everyone else is doing. I think almost deliberately doing the opposite is always a good way to look at the problem.
- [35:22]
C
Building on that story quickly, because there's a nice story about the HHCL thing that I was reading recently about the architects, Zaha Hadid, and this is about how she uses AI in her practice. Say they get a commission to build a new, I don't know, library or something. What she does straight away is to get feed that into whatever AI engine and to spit out what it thinks a modernist library would be. Then she sticks it all up on the wall and says to her team, design anything but that on the wall. So she uses it as the enemy because that's the status quo. And what she wants to do is create difference, which is quite interesting. It's the kind of same thing that HHL did.
- [36:06]
D
I think this because I do feel like around the world there's people like looking at the tropes of the category and trying to break those and no one tries. I don't think people generally try and do the same thing. It's not, definitely not a lot of people I know in the industry. There's more systemic things that I think people should think about in this topic rather than are people doing their job right or not. I think in this industry there's less and less retained relationships of clients, so you have less chance. The best and bravest work doesn't always just happen when you've met someone yesterday and you're doing a project. It takes getting really close to source, like you working with Idris, for example, or getting closer to the talent or getting more into the business problem. And I think as an industry we have less of that. These days. So that affects whether you're able to get to an organization with something that is genuinely more different and brave. So it's not. I do think there's bigger things that play on that than just what are people. People are trying to be different.
- [37:00]
B
I mean, one of my favorite pieces of work for this past year was Claude's work, Anthropic's Claude work. Tell us a little bit about that. Tell us about the strategy behind it. I mean it's very clear what it's trying to do, but it's a beautiful piece of work.
- [37:13]
D
Yeah. Oh, thank you.
- [37:15]
B
Where did it start off for you guys?
- [37:17]
D
Well, that to my point just now, actually it starts from probably a deep relationship of people that have worked together for a number of years, of Felix has worked with Andrew, the lead clients from Anthropic for a long time in previous lives. There's a deep trust in a relationship in that thing. That is truly an important part of this because I think it is that. And the brief on that I guess does get to the core of the values of that company, which it is a group of people who left another AI company because they thought there would be a better way of doing things. And within that is a genuine hope for the future that I think sometimes in the AI conversation can get lost. And our responsibility was to try and give the brands get hold within that launchpad to talk about potential positive impacts of AI on human agency. Now within that then we're considering that that company and that brand is a lot of its customers are enterprise. So there is a mindset we're speaking to that is I guess more like the early Apple days of creative thinkers. There is an engineering mindset that we're trying to speak to that is for problem solvers so that all of those things combined to a place where we're looking at a problem solver mindset, where we're trying to speak to people that really have meaty things to solve. Maybe we're quite happy to say that our product isn't for people that want to do a holiday itinerary. And that's a brave decision to make earlier on in the process. We're actually looking for people that want to solve some meaty problems in their career or in their life or help progress science or help progress what people are trying to do in their enterprise.
- [38:46]
B
There's never been a better time, a.
- [38:49]
A
Better time to have a problem.
- [38:52]
B
To.
- [38:53]
C
Be stuck, to be overwhelmed, to be impatient.
- [39:00]
B
To be out of ideas or.
- [39:04]
C
Out of your depth, out of breath.
- [39:09]
D
There's never been a better time to.
- [39:10]
E
Have a medical condition.
- [39:12]
B
Just look at the research being done.
- [39:14]
D
All of those things combined to get to a platform that was in a world where, I guess the fear we all have with AI is it takes the human out of the equation and we need to do less. Actually, it's just an opportunity for us to solve more. And I think that in that moment was a great thing for us to say. And then it was also. That's not executed amazingly because you can say that in a way that is flat, but then you trust brilliant, creative people at craft who really are able to pour everything into that and their experience and expertise into that and produce something at the end of that that is very distinctive and visceral in how it shows up in the world. And sort of positioning is brought to life by amazing people who are crafting something amazing.
- [40:03]
B
Tomorrow night is the EFFIE Awards for the uk and there's some great work that's been in that. There's. You know, I think when I look at McCann and I look at your old stomping grounds and Adam and Eve and the calm work and Neurofan. Tell us about that work. That, to me, was a really interesting strategic way to go at that business problem.
- [40:26]
E
Yeah. I mean, the pharmaceutical industry is in a deeply factual, scientifically driven industry. And before we started working with Nurofen, all of their advertising was simply about works in eight minutes, tackles pain faster. It was very much about the kind of functional benefits of the product. But actually that brand was in decline. It wasn't working anymore because own brand painkillers were doing the job just as well. So we sort of. I mean, I'm not taking any credit for any of this. There's lots of brilliant strategists who worked on this platform, but took a leadership position within pain and pain is actually incredibly emotional. It's very human. It's very much a kind of felt thing. It's not a scientific and functional thing. It's unique to individuals. And there's one part of the population that experiences more pain than. Than any other and actually is the biggest buyer of painkillers in the supermarket, and that's women. So we champion Nurofen, taking on what we coined as the gender pain gap. So the difference between how female pain and male pain is perceived. So the platform is, see my pain and Neurofen have become this lobbyist and champion of closing the gender pain gap, and they've committed to it far beyond advertising. So lots of our kind of executions actually turn up in GP surgeries. So we have created a kind of pain pass, which is for women to help them explain their pain better when they go into a GP surgery. We've done exhibitions that have kind of brought to light the things that women have been told by their gps when they've said that they've had pain. Things like, maybe you're just stressed, maybe it's your period, things like that. And it's had phenomenal kind of effects. For Nurofen, they are now back as the leader in the pain category. This pain was like you were being tortured.
- [42:37]
F
Over 50 years of living with pain to just put up and, you.
- [42:42]
E
Know, carry on, which at the time I couldn't. My friends sort of got on with their lives and thought, natasha will be okay. I was told it was just wear and tear. That was it. Wear and tear.
- [42:55]
D
Why don't you go to bed then.
- [42:56]
E
If you're in pain? Well, maybe it's just stress.
- [42:59]
F
You start to believe when they say that there's nothing medically wrong.
- [43:03]
C
Yeah.
- [43:04]
E
Nothing wrong with you. It's like this energy of dismissal.
- [43:07]
B
Like, I'm curious. When you look at what's happened in 2025 and you look ahead to 2026, I want to just. I'll run around the table. I'd love each of you to talk about what you think we need to be doing less of and what we need to be doing more of in 2026. Let me start with Mel, then I'll go to Alex, then I'll go to Mark.
- [43:34]
E
I think related to what Chris was talking about, we compare lots of brilliant work that's happening with big emotive films, and that's never a sort of easy or simple comparison. I think there was an opportunity for a whole new generation of creatives to write very different kinds of stories for brands that often involve removing a bit of control and experimenting. We've got two projects in the pipeline where we know where they're going to start, but we don't know where they're going to end. And I think that's really exciting. I think removing some of the control from storytelling opens brand stories up to new places and spaces and audiences.
- [44:19]
B
And then. So that would be. Do more of that. Do more of that and then less of what?
- [44:24]
E
Less traditional thinking. I think there's a time and a place for TV ads and big emotive films and things like that, and, you know, out of home, having a renaissance and things, things like that. But I think there is a whole lot of scope for very different kinds of Storytelling. And I think we've only just scratched the surface of what that could be. And as I said, I think some of that is coaching brands to be braver and more experimental and even starting projects and not necessarily knowing how they're going to end, because they're going to be taken on by influencers and creators and communities, and we're going to see where they go.
- [44:59]
B
Alex, more of.
- [45:02]
C
I think the primary thing we need to do to back our taste. I think a lot of what we do is hard to quantify, but ultimately you are hiring the best people at advertising agencies because through their life history, the weird way they connect the dots, as Steve Jobs says, they have developed this extraordinary thing called taste. And I don't think we value that enough and I don't think we kind of sell it enough. So I'd say there's a thing there. So I think backing that and selling that is a thing that we could all do better.
- [45:41]
B
And then less of what?
- [45:43]
C
Less of what? I would say less time investing our energy into awards and more time just in competing against culture generally. I think the trouble that's happened in awards is that we've got this, and I like a bit of competition, but there's this small internal competition between agencies and holding companies that comes together in various international shows. And certainly all my best friends don't work in the industry. And when I've come back from Cannes and we meet in the pub and they say, tell us what's won, and no one has got any idea what I'm talking about or what it is. And I just think it's become quite a small, insular world. And I think what we have to do is to be larger and compare ourselves against, you know, we should be competing against traitors and Taylor Swift and stuff like that. I mean, I know that's kind of impossible in a way, but there needs to be that ambition just to be bigger and to be more relevant. And there's so much time spent worrying about awards which are good and necessary to a degree, but I think take too much time and energy and there's a bigger problem to be solved.
- [46:58]
B
So those would be creative awards versus effectiveness awards.
- [47:03]
C
I think mainly creative awards, if I'm honest. I'm not just saying that because I'm with strategists, but there seems to be more validity towards effectiveness awards. I mean, clients see much more interesting interested in them, for a start, than the other ones. And there's brilliant stuff at Cannes, but there's also just a whole load of nonsense that's very distracting.
- [47:22]
F
Some piggybacking, what you guys said. I really hate the LinkedIn scroll. If anything, less thought leadership.
- [47:31]
E
Please.
- [47:34]
B
Explain that a little bit.
- [47:35]
F
Well, I just go on there and I see a lot of people and I will not know names who haven't made anything, talking about things that they haven't had any skin in the game and haven't been in the rooms, hasn't been the man in the arena and I just. I just get fed up with it. And maybe it's because I come from a widened world. It's like it's about the work, it's about making, it's about doing. And I just wish the work would speak more and rather than us endless LinkedIn posts and posturing and, you know. So, yeah, less thought leadership, less people, smaller teams and more making, more doing, more experimenting, more trying. I mean, I don't think any of that's changed.
- [48:19]
B
Yeah. Martin, Leslie.
- [48:21]
G
I've got a few. Fergus, if that's just a vent. Yeah. So I definitely agree with the less industry focus and more public focus. I just think too much of our work is made for the industry and not enough of it is made with the public in mind. And I just think we used to talk on genre for many years about how we were Coldplay and proud, like we wanted to be the most popular ad that the nation kind of loved. So I just think that and getting out there and talking to real people in the real world and having that as the focus, not the industry. Second thing is, I think we need to do less of what I would call the coloring in around the edges. So at its worst, an advertising agency becomes expensive. Coloring in around the periphery.
- [49:09]
B
What does that mean?
- [49:10]
G
Well, it just becomes like, oh, we'll make your advertising look quite nice and on brand guidelines and it's working with the marketing team that aren't necessarily at the heart of the business. And I feel, and maybe this is that golden age thinking I was warning us about earlier, but I feel like creativity and creative agencies used to be at the top table. They used to advise the client at a higher level as to how an idea could change the entire organization. And I think there are pockets where creative companies are doing that really well. But I think we have to do much more of that and less of the colouring in around the edges. And then the last one, I'm going to sort of say it's jointly Paula and I, because we were talking about it just before we started, but less treating people like they're just resource that can be made more efficient and burnt out and more really looking after talent. And I just feel like the industry's not doing a great job at the moment of really looking after people. And if you have the best talent, you win. It's a competitive advantage. So if your company treats people really well and the best talent get to choose where they work ultimately, then I think you get a competitive advantage. And I think we're seeing a masterclass in how not to do it in a number of places at the moment. So I'd love to see more looking after our talent.
- [50:28]
C
I do think the model will change because it has to. Now you have the advantage that you're starting so you can create it yourself. But I think if agencies don't adapt, they're going to die. It's like all of these models, like the pitching model we were talking about, it's completely broken, it's going to have to change. It just doesn't work in any shape or form.
- [50:48]
E
But just to sort of rep anyone who is listening who works at a network agency. I'm not necessarily like missing network or anything like that, but I think there is a sort of dangerous narrative that the only good work can come out of independent shops and kind of small startups and anyone in a network, you're just sort of holding space or whatever. I think there's brilliant work that comes out of network agencies and has done for years in this market and I think we've just been talking about how sort of long term relationships get you kind of further upstream with clients and you have that kind of benefit of bravery. We've got over a decade's worth of relationship with Xbox and that work is now the best work that we've done in our whole relationship with that brand. Because all of that trust is coming to fruition and you sort of inherit that when you come to an agency that's established that Trust and MasterCard 30 years and L' Oreal 50 years or something ridiculous like that. So yeah, I just want to anyone who's listening, I think there's brilliant work that can come out of established network agencies. Maybe the headwinds are harder, maybe the situation is more difficult, but I think there's great work that comes out of network agencies.
- [52:05]
B
Fair point, true point.
- [52:06]
E
I think it's really important too because we're not going to attract the next generation of talent if we keep being so down on ourselves. I do think about would I join our industry now when. And you look at our industry press and it's all so doom and gloom and we seem to have a terrible time. I don't know if I would proactively run towards that if I was starting out.
- [52:27]
D
I honestly think when there's a review this year and we see if there was a giant, brilliant sizzle reel of this year from the uk, people would love things we haven't talked about. There's tons of stuff. Some of the Heinz work by Wiedens, there's the EA Just club launched just by Uncommon with the team Mzlatten fc. There's great work all over the place and we're just picking a few things. But if there's a sizzle of the year, people will be like, wow, this is cool stuff.
- [52:54]
E
I agree.
- [52:55]
A
So that was our conversation at Mother in London with these great folks. I really appreciate everybody participating in it. I would love to hear any comments that you have. Maybe you've got a perspective on what you heard. Maybe you have a different perspective on the UK market and what's happened in 2024. We'd love to hear from you. Our email address is hellonstrategyshowcase. Or of course you can connect with me on LinkedIn under my name, Fergus O' Carroll and leave me a DM there if you'd like. It would be terrific to hear from you. We'll be back in the new year with a bunch of new live shows we are going to be releasing in the next couple of days. Actually, our live show here in Chicago for our holiday AD special. So look for that. That was a great, great event. It is a great event here in Chicago every year and we're going to be adding another holiday event, a second holiday event in New York City next year. So we're going to have a double hit in December. So thanks for listening, we really appreciate you. Have a great holiday season and we'll see you back next year. 2026.