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- [00:01]
Fergus O'Carroll
Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O'Carroll in Chicago. Today's show is part of our live tour series sponsored by our wonderful friends at Tracksuit, Wark and the Effie's. Today's show was recorded in New York City at Wyden and Kennedy's offices on October 17, 2024. Our theme was the future of ideas. We just got back from a sold out live show at TBWA Chiat Day in Los Angeles. That episode should be out in the next few weeks. And next up is our Live from Chicago show. It's our holiday Ads special. We're going to share and discuss some of the best holiday ads from around the world, both ones from this year and also from the past. And it's going to be a lot of fun. We just feel we need some fun right now. And given that it's the holiday season, we didn't want to do something too serious. So we're going to have this holiday ad special. We're going to kind of decorate it up. We're going to have holiday food and drinks and there'll probably be cookies. So we're excited about that. Our host in Chicago is High Dive and the event is taking place at the Merchandise Mart in downtown Chicago, which is the soon to be new home for High Dive. It's going to be the office holiday party you wish your office was having. In fact, just make it your office party this year. We'd love to have you there, as we would all of the folks across the Chicago agency and marketing community. Tickets are available now on our website under the Live tour tab. Here's a clip from today's Live from New York episode. We've all experienced this where we feel that the best work gets killed, right? And so the question is, are ideas that might be classified as the future of ideas, are they just not getting generated or are they just getting killed?
- [02:06]
Marcus Gartrell
I think we're actually on a precipice of what the future, it's a weird sentence, the precipice of what the future of ideas are going to be. I think we had such a kind of specific North Star for what great ideas were even like five years ago. So I think in the context of are these ideas being killed? Are they not being generated? I think we're all kind of figuring out what they look like now. And I think within that becomes difficult conversations of agencies expressing what those ideas are to clients to understand what the idea is, to even approve it. Because I think we're kind of still getting out of the world of what the media buy was where this idea needs to live to even understand what that idea will look like. So what the idea will look like will be interesting. Because to Chris earlier point about like the Nike work from this Olympics, it felt very meaningful. It was traditionally a bunch of spots, but it felt like a modern idea. When you bring ideas that feel like that but don't look like those spots, it's harder for people to understand. I can approve this.
- [03:12]
Fergus O'Carroll
That's Marcus Gartrell. He is the co Chief Creative Officer of Wieden and Kennedy, New York. He's joined by Johnny Bauer, founder and CEO at Fundamental Company. Also Chris Beresford, Hill WorldW chief creative officer for BBDO and Laura Rowan, Chief Strategy Officer at Wyden and Kennedy, New York. Our topic was the future of Ideas. Now this is a big topic and you could surround it with specialists from many different types of industries and different parts of our own industry, but it's a tough one. I think there are no clear answers yet and it seems that right now we mostly know what it shouldn't be and are slowly finding our way to what's next. I don't think there's a big reveal coming. I think it's doing what we already do, but in a much smarter, much better, much more creative way in different and unique places. I think like everything in fashion or culture and society, everything old becomes new again. It gets sort of reshaped, it morphs and it reemerges with some tweaks. So maybe the answer is in the past and not in the future. And I know a lot of people don't want to hear hear that. But there really is a strong point of view in our industry that says that there's not a lot of original ideas, that ideas that were once original are tweaked, reshaped and they reemerge. And if we're students of history within our own industry, we begin to see those familiarities. But what once was. So as we look at the evolution of what we're having to face from a technology perspective, from an exhausted audience perspective, from the fragmentation of audience perspective, you can look back over the decades and see how different shifts at different times have dealt with this. And my sense is that's where we're going to be heading. Even with the introduction of AI, which we talk about in the episode, I think these changes are going to be informed by the past and less by some massive new original approach from the future. Anyway, the audio quality is a bit sketchy at times during the Recording. We've been taking the show on the road and recording the show on the road with different audio systems at each different location has created some unexpected kinks. So bear with us while we figure this thing out. I think we actually nailed it last week in our Live from LA show. But time will tell as we go through the edit. Anyway, here's the Future of Ideas live episode with this wonderful panel at Wieden and Kennedy, New York. Enjoy. Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O'Carroll in New York. What a thrill. What a thrill. We're here at Wieden and Kennedy. We're live with a great panel of people that I wish I could have been in my career, but I never actually turned out to be that. So it's brilliant to actually sit and talk to each of them. We have a discussion outline that we're going to go through, but we'll just, we'll mess around with it. It'll go, it goes. But like we did in London, we're going to start off by asking each of these guys what's an example of a great idea that they've seen recently and it can't be from their own agency, but we picked this theme, the future of Ideas because there's so much change happening, has happened and is going to happen in our industry. So we just thought it was a good topic to talk about. So I'm going to. Sorry, if I can start with Laura. Let's talk about an idea that you've loved recently. It can be anything.
- [07:10]
Laura Rowan
I secretly want to say Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift because I'm not convinced it wasn't staged.
- [07:15]
Fergus O'Carroll
Interesting.
- [07:16]
Chris Beresford
That's great because it's actually a beautiful.
- [07:18]
Laura Rowan
Comm strategy and I think it got a lot of viewership for the NFL. So I think that's amazing. But you know what? I am going to do a little bit of a different answer. Right. Because I think at Wieden we like to pride ourselves in saying we're not experts of advertising, we're kind of like student of humanity. And I genuinely, I think the brilliance behind the Kamala campaign is I'm here for it. No applause. Okay. I'm not trying to make it political, but look, I think there's some brilliance to the comm strategy of that. How the social media rolled out was pretty amazing.
- [07:50]
Fergus O'Carroll
How so anything specific you can share?
- [07:52]
Laura Rowan
Yeah, I think the way that she's basically judoing the notions of what her opponent has tried to co opted in terms of defining freedom as freedom from an establishment and Trying to create a new regime of policy and actually taking the word back. The very DNA of this country and imbuing it with optimism and unity and solidarity is working. And I think it's, you know, championing a lot of good vibes and momentum. And I personally just think I'm here for it. It's pretty brilliant.
- [08:20]
Fergus O'Carroll
I'll go to Johnny and then I'll go to Chris next. Johnny, how about you for an idea that you've really liked?
- [08:26]
Johnny Bauer
I was in London.
- [08:29]
Fergus O'Carroll
You could probably pull off that mic if you'd like to.
- [08:32]
Johnny Bauer
Ready? Ruining this. I was in London last week for a work trip and I got, like, one hour to go that wasn't. Is this good? That wasn't in meetings. And I went to the Tate Modern to see the Mike Kelly show. And he is, you know, someone that I've, you know, loved for a really long time and was reminded how incredible he is. And he has a really interesting commentary on how complex American culture is. And for.
- [09:07]
Fergus O'Carroll
He's an Englishman or.
- [09:08]
Johnny Bauer
No, he's American. It's his first show in, you know, in a big. He, you know, died of suicide, tragically. Amazing, but tortured soul. And he. And the. But the work always makes me understand the idea of nuance or that ideas aren't just one thing. Things are really complicated and nuanced. And he's always able, as part of what we've always, like, done as strategists, is need to understand, to a degree of what's happening with culture, where are things going. He always makes me feel like I'm not doing a good enough job. And he presents things in this kind of super subversive confronting, disruptive, like set of images or ideas or constructs or objects that I always just leave feeling.
- [09:58]
Fergus O'Carroll
What does he typically express as art, in what form?
- [10:01]
Johnny Bauer
It can take a lot of, you know, different forms, from painting to sculpture to performance, to, you know, like, he's. He's, you know, to blankets. He does a lot of work with blankets that he cuts out to look. Look like faces. But. And a lot of the work he does are, like, pretty tough critiques on, you know, American systems and a lot on the education system. And, you know, I have a different relationship with American society now. The last month I became an American citizen, and so I did not have to give up my Australian citizen, but I was told if we went to war, that I would have to fight for America against Australia. And so, yeah, it was just. It's just. It's amazing. If anyone is there, it's up for like six months.
- [10:44]
Fergus O'Carroll
How about for you, Chris? Anything come to mind?
- [10:47]
Chris Beresford
Those are two very good answers. And I swear I'm not trying to earn goodwill from the crowd that I happen to be in the midst of, but I'll maybe lamely bring it to advertising. And I think the Nike winning It's not for Everyone campaign was just a real relief for me as a practitioner, but also as a consumer. To see a brand like that come back to the mass market with a really provocative message that really resonated with athletes and whatever that spirit is in all of us. And that's really the last thing I remember seeing on the actual television. That stuck with me.
- [11:29]
Fergus O'Carroll
Interesting. Marcus, how about you?
- [11:32]
Marcus Gartrell
That's a great answer. And also, I wouldn't. Not because pandering, but when I saw it, I'd text the CDs that did it in Portland. I was so mad at them because it was so good. So an equal part of jealousy for me also. All great answers. It was weirdly, the Pop Tart bowl that happened at the end of last year. And it was such a weird relationship with me with the Pop Tart bowl because it felt so personal, but weirdly so shared so contextually. I was in Australia at the time, and I just opened up Twitter and saw people talking about the Pop Turbo. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Pop Turbo, but I don't remember it. Okay, this is why it's kind of interesting, because it wasn't super masked, but it was so weird. They had a mascot. The Pop Tart mascot was like, at this bowl game, and I had to look up today who the bowl game was between. It was between Kansas State and NC State. Irrelevant, meaningly. But the Pop Tart mascot was just going all in at the moment. He was like, on the field. He opened the game. I think at the end of the game, he climbed into a giant toaster and had a sign that said, like.
- [12:41]
Fergus O'Carroll
Oh, I do remember.
- [12:42]
Marcus Gartrell
Follow your dreams and it's all worth it. He got lowered into the toaster, and after the game, all of the players that won were breaking apart the Pop Tart to eat him. And like, so I was just on Twitter in Australia in this moment, and, like, watching the Internet explode at this Pop Tart thing. And my wife eventually woke up, who's Australian, And I was like, let me explain this idea to you. And that was like 30 years ago, for some reason, brand just started sponsoring bowl games. And like, every brand felt that was their way to, like, touch a passion point. And also like reach an audience with awareness. But this was the most subversive version of that to me, where like now they've gone all in on this mascot that is so insane. And it became a thing that was so weirdly clearly an ad, but also it didn't feel ad like it just got the attention of the Internet because it was so subversive in its oddness and its commitment to what it was. And like it knew its voice so well and it just became a massive thing. So again, it felt so singular because I'm trying to explain this to my wife while in Australia, who does not care about any of this. I don't think I talked to anybody about advertising less than her, but it was so resonant and it just felt so. Like it grabbed a moment and the attention that was paid to it was so impressive to me that I was a lot of way by it.
- [13:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
So to that idea, open it up to you guys. When you look at how the shapes of ideas and the forms of ideas have changed, what are you seeing happening? Because some of it is completely new for us, some of it is unexpected. What are you noticing about what's changing?
- [14:18]
Laura Rowan
I mean, we're all going to pile on, but I feel like the shape of the ideas change. Like, I think like the. The surface of where you can go has just completely exploded just in the last five years. Right. Like, I think where an idea can execute has almost become infinite from just the physical surface to the analog. I think what remains is the. The power of storytelling. It may feel like that's timeless, but I think where it can live and what defines it is exciting. But equally, I think it can be nebulous and ambiguous for. For some of our clients to understand, like, what is that and how does it live and why is that impactful? Like a pop tart going down a giant toaster.
- [14:55]
Marcus Gartrell
You know, I do think that what an idea is, is so amorphous in execution now because I think it was so much easier. We talk about this a lot. Where 40 years ago there were like 12 channels on your TV and now there's so many. I have 71 apps on my Apple TV to watch different things on. So the attention span of the audience is so much more wide spread. So figuring out how to connect with people is so much different than it was, I think, even 10 years ago. So at the core of it, there is still that emotional storytelling. There is still that like connection point that people can understand the shape of what that thing looks like and how they will connect with it. I think constantly changes. So it's a chase for how do we get this idea that we all kind of were raised to know in advertising, bring that to life in a way that's going to connect with someone, and how do we give people a lot of different ways of executing that idea, that they can find themselves in it, and some way to not look away in some way to share it and all that sort of stuff.
- [15:49]
Fergus O'Carroll
So, Johnny, for you at Fundamental co your work with Blackstone. I think most people in the industry, when you went to Blackstone were thinking a combination of wow and holy shit, meaning it was just like, what sort of magic can you create there? And was it going to be magic or were you going to hit a brick wall? But. But I got to expect that you were dealing with a whole different definition of what an idea needed to be.
- [16:19]
Johnny Bauer
Yes, I think that it's a similar kind of thought around what these guys were saying, but it's definitely. I mean, I think that the kinds of ideas that I'm interested in or that we pushed through Blackstone and now, you know, beyond Blackstone are ideas that are. That are more useful to more parts of the company and ideas that kind of don't necessarily get trapped in marketing, but can really help companies think about what kind of company they can become and what everyone within the organization's role is helping to become it. So ideas that then act as a filter to inform who we need to hire, what capabilities we need, what we of course then say in our. How we organize ourselves, what processes, what technology we have, and then, of course, how that manifests in telling the world what it is that our offering now reacts.
- [17:22]
Fergus O'Carroll
Is that a more interesting way to see work come to life than when you were like, droga? I mean, is that. Because I think a lot of us talk about wanting to do that, and I think when we're creating ideas and strategies, we see in our minds, I can imagine how this could impact the company deeply. Is there joy in actually seeing that, or is it just a whole different level of experience?
- [17:46]
Johnny Bauer
I mean, I get a lot of joy from that and I also get it in very unsexy places. So, like, you know, power grid companies, processing companies, you know. And it's not to say that I do not adore incredible advertising. I worked at Drogafi for 14 years. I still love it. I still get energized and enthused by amazing, you know, advertising. But I do find it, you know, really rewarding when everyone in the company understands and is clear about what their contribution to the idea needs to be and their KPIs around it and manifesting in, you know, in different forms even if they're not necessarily, you know, shiny.
- [18:28]
Fergus O'Carroll
When we were in London, Lucy Jameson out on Common, she talked about it as being able to work on the more unloved aspects of a brand the most the unloved aspects of the services of the brand. They were talking about their work, British Airways, that getting deeper into the company was really rewarding. But you know Chris, it's like hard to get that deep into a client relationship especially with the big legacy brands like bbdo. And how do you earn that seat? And is that something that you even want to do?
- [19:01]
Chris Beresford
You know, when you think about how your agency evaluates success and you think about creative awards, which I think are exciting and they are, you know, they are a great, dare I say, sport within our industry. I actually think getting in those legacy clients. But also there's the now gone CEO of ge, Jeff Immelt wrote a book called Hot Seat. And I have a weird thing where I read lots of airport business biographies. I think it's a little bit because maybe an accountant reads a book about Picasso but then I get to hang out with all these creative people and I read books about number crunchers. I don't know what it is but I find them soothing. And in Jeff's book, you know, he mentioned BBDO three times and he mentioned BBDO not for the campaigns we created, but he mentioned it in the context of we had a business problem, we could not recruit the next gen talent because they perceive BBDO to be old timey and manufacturing. And so we created with our agency bbdo a campaign about a guy named Owen who goes to work at GE and no one in his family understands why he's doing it because they think he's going to work on the, on the railroad.
- [20:23]
Fergus O'Carroll
With a hammer, right?
- [20:24]
Chris Beresford
Yep. Yeah, they give him his grandpa's hammer. But I think the thing that I like the most about that was the way, the way he talked about BBDO as a partner to solve a business problem. And so I think we've got to always take a step, not just take the service orders that come in. You know, this client needs a campaign about this product on this date. But take a step back and say what are we doing for their business? And I think when you can think about it on a macro level like that where a CEO retires and talks about five or six times Wyden Kennedy or Droga5 or any of these great agencies solved a business problem for them. I think that is a much more interesting story for us to tell ourselves.
- [21:04]
Fergus O'Carroll
We'll be right back. I'm delighted to have work as the sponsor of this series. WARC is the authority in marketing effectiveness. With warc, you gain the confidence to challenge the status quo, prove your business case and fuel the innovation needed to take your marketing effectiveness to the next level. For nearly 40 years, Wark has helped customers around the world make more confident marketing decisions by giving them access to proprietary research, an extensive library of case studies and best practices practices, and robust data and inspiration. Who do the world's leading brands, agencies and media owners turn to when they want to make sure their plans are going to work? The answer is WARC. You can learn more at work.com that is warc.com now back to the show. You know, when we look at the future of ideas, do we need different people? Do we need a different type of person, a different strategist, a different creator? Do we need different teams?
- [22:11]
Johnny Bauer
I mean, I think yes and no. I think the existing kind of core skill set that strategists have always had still apply in different contexts or against different asks. I think that you need to bring in different understanding to really get the business way early up front. And I also think that brand has to be, you know, on the client side. Brand has to be a CEO level thing if it's going to be altitude of the relationship. Yeah. So I think that brand is a company idea, not a marketing idea. But if you're only delivering it with the marketing folks, they're often second guessing what the CEO will want. But then the idea is developed in a way that's disconnected from the rest rest of the company. So they don't know how to use it or they don't feel they contributed to it. The CEO is obviously ahead of everyone and if they're pushing for a brand idea, then they're going to make sure that it's connected to all parts of the company. And so it's. So I think that there's definitely. We do kind of state that that's if you, if you want our kind of idea, it has to be that kind of engagement. And sometimes it's not right for people and that's okay. We've just done it long enough to know that if you are going through a CMO often they'll be second guessing the CEO through a ton of work. Then you'll get that things will unravel and no one's happy. So just from learning from our Collective experience. We try and avoid that. I also think that having different people as part of the team that have really run companies can be really, really helpful. So we're working with Spanx, a shapewear company that is becoming a different kind of company. I may or may not be wearing mine now. And there we have our executive creative directors. Jenna Lyons, who has run an apparel company before. And so it's less around what the advertising is saying or doing, but they had a thought around. We're thinking of hiring a CMO to sit above the head of design. And Jenna could say, Here are the 10 reasons why that's a terrible idea in an apparel company and how you could start to reorganize your capabilities to take this new, like what we're calling brand idea and pull it through all of the experience. Now, I don't think you need to have agenda lines to do this assignment, but having that perspective within the context of what you're creating to really give ideas to the company that show that you understand how an idea needs to be able to travel is really key. So different inputs and also different sets of responsibilities around who is overseeing this idea. If you really wanted to push through beyond just marketing and create something that's useful.
- [24:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
So why did you. I asked the same question of Lucy Jameson. I said, why did you need to create uncommon to do that kind of work? And the question is for you too. Why did you have to create or Fundamental co or go to Blackstone in order to do that? Because we've all wanted to do that. It just seemed for decades, we don't seem to be able to do it.
- [25:24]
Johnny Bauer
I don't know, man. Like, I've been trying, so it's like. But so I really, you know, and again, at Droga, you know, we were trying to have marketing ideas make a different contribution. And with Accenture and their amazing consulting chops and, and their technology tops downstream, how could you create that, like, connect? I've been trying to create this through line for a really long time and then. But so I targeted private equity because a company's just been sold. And so that's a moment of receptivity to real change. Because if it doesn't, if it stays the same kind of company, it's not going to be worth more and the investors won't be able to sell it. So I, I had a thesis that if you inserted this in that moment, there may be a different level of receptivity. While there's new ownership, chances are founder's gone away and there's Just a different crew that's resetting for the next chapter. So that was why I went there. And so then we've taken learnings and applied them to other Blackstones and some public companies. But that was how I thought I could give it another go. But I mean, I haven't got there and I'm trying to get there, but that's really, you know, what I'm trying to do.
- [26:38]
Fergus O'Carroll
Chris, we're great at building brands and I wonder whether part of the future of ideas is that we start to build our own brands. And I know people have talked about that a lot too, but is there opportunities for us to take what we do and to actually build businesses rather than build other people's businesses or to build brands rather than build other people's brands?
- [27:03]
Chris Beresford
Yes, for sure. You could build a brand and market it yourself. I think. I personally believe celebrity owned brands are. We're gonna have a few more years of that. I think celebrity owned brands have the personality and I think when you're Ryan Reynolds and you create aviation gin, you put yourself there, you put your snarky humor, you put your movie star good look, but three years later you can disappear from the ads and the tone and the cheeky headlines and the way the brand can show up. Like you could really. I think the easiest way to launch a brand now would be to have a celebrity affix their archetype or find synergy, launch it with them and then have them recede and then do another and then do another. I feel like that would be a very easy way to create brands. But maybe we'll start a celebrity brand. If anyone listening knows a celebrity, you know, find us@bbdo.com and I'll build your brand. I got a lot of ideas for celebrity brands.
- [28:05]
Fergus O'Carroll
We've all experienced this where we feel that the best work gets killed, right? And so the question is, are ideas that might be classified as the future of ideas, are they just not getting generated or are they just getting killed?
- [28:27]
Chris Beresford
Why couldn't you give me that one? You go first. You asked me about building brands and stuff afterwards. Okay, thank you.
- [28:35]
Fergus O'Carroll
Everybody can jump in on this.
- [28:36]
Marcus Gartrell
And my answer also involves Kevin Hart. No, I think they. I think we're actually on a precipice of what the future. It's a weird sentence, the precipice on what the future of ideas are going to be. I think we had such a kind of specific North Star for what great ideas were even like five years ago. So I think in the context of are these ideas Being killed? Are they not being generated? I think we're all kind of figuring out what they look like now. And I think within that becomes difficult conversations of agencies expressing what those ideas are to clients, to understand what that is, to even approve it, because I think we're kind of still getting out of the world of what the media buy was where this idea needs to live, to even understand what that idea will look like. So what the idea will look like will be interesting. Because to Chris's earlier point about, like, the Nike work from this Olympics, it felt very meaningful. It was traditionally a bunch of spots, but it felt like a modern idea. When you bring ideas that feel like that but don't look like those spots, it's harder for people to understand. I can approve this adult Happy Meal. I can approve this pop Tart. It's harder to understand what the ROI is on those sorts of ideas because they become more amorphous. But those things do connect with audiences in ways that we need to figure out how to do that, because it's true of every generation. I think it's harder and harder to reach the audience that we want to get to. And I think we don't necessarily know exactly in these dialogues with clients, what those ideas look like.
- [30:14]
Fergus O'Carroll
I love your point that you're on the precipice. So do you know what that idea. Because I think a lot of what we're talking about, you could say it's like incrementalism for where we are. So do you know, do you see something in your mind's eye where you're like, God damn, I wish I could sell that, but I just can't sell it or I can't develop it. Do you know what is beyond the precipice?
- [30:37]
Marcus Gartrell
No, but not because I don't think we know. I think it's because we're constantly getting feedback on what resonates in culture now. You know, I think it's a couple months ago we were constantly talking about, and this kind of goes to something we talk about a lot now. One of our strategists here has a point of view about how often we chase relevance in our industry. And he goes, but really what we want is resonance. And there's a difference between those two words. And a lot of them are kind of interweaved. But a lot of relevance to me is this summer when we all saw Brett pop off like crazy with Charlie xcx. We're all like, we need our Brett. And no one can explain what Brett really was. And Brett Was on billboards, and Brett was a thing for a month and a half. And by the time you tried to sell in a Brett to a client, we were like, oh, she's moved on to demure now. And we're like, oh, so brat's not the thing. So I think, like, what that idea is is constantly evolving because we just see what actually is resonant with audiences. Figuring out how that is executed, I think is interesting, But I think we've started to figure out what things audiences galvanize around, and that's not much different than what we galvanized around before. It's just the form of it is different. So. So it's trying to figure out what our goal is directly with our clients, who we're trying to reach, and finding out what resonates with those audiences to bring to life those sorts of ideas. And I think that does involve bringing in new people.
- [32:04]
Laura Rowan
I just want to add what you were saying, because it's really smart.
- [32:06]
Marcus Gartrell
Thank you.
- [32:07]
Laura Rowan
But I think. Funny.
- [32:08]
Chris Beresford
I agree.
- [32:09]
Laura Rowan
No, but I think this obsession with cultural relevance. So to answer your question, I think it's selling. I think ideas are abundant and they're flowing, and there's a lot selling.
- [32:18]
Fergus O'Carroll
Meaning you were able to sell them.
- [32:19]
Laura Rowan
Yeah. Selling the ideas, I think are much more difficult than generating the ideas, because I was right. I feel like the selling has become more difficult. But as a strategist, I think it's exciting to figure out how to make some close the gap of why this is important for your business or for your brand. I think that we are in an interesting time in culture where there is a real obsession for cultural relevance, and there's a lot of chasing of what is my demure mindfulness. At the same time, I think there's a real deep paralysis of, will I be canceled? Will I say the wrong thing? Stand for nothing? You know, fall for something. That whole thing, you know, if I don't put a line in the sand, and I. And I think it's creating this, like, really complicated environment to get ideas, because I think it puts a lot of pressure on us, I think, at the agency to try to go know your truth. Let's be honest, let's be authentic. Let's remember who we're actually talking to and who we're trying to connect to and to try to kind of remove all these, I guess, temptations that are all around us that. Where brands can fall a little bit. So I feel like we are at an interesting time in culture where there's that tension.
- [33:27]
Chris Beresford
I do think chasing cultural relevance is a losing proposition. I think you absolutely have to create cultural relevance, you know, within, just by coming up with ideas that really excite you and your teams that feel a little interesting, a little dangerous, you know, you want to see how they unfold. But I think to play in the land of outcomes and existing cultural relevance is, you know, you're always going to be late, you know, or you're always going to be derivative. So I still do believe when our industry makes an impact culturally, it's from the inside out, it's not chasing what's outside. But I will say when you ask, I mean, the thing about the original version of the question that got me was, are the good ideas still in the decks? And I think they are, but when I was starting out 20 years ago, the deck was nine pages long and now the deck is 90 pages long. And somewhere along the way, we've lost so much confidence in ourselves and in what we do that every single page that's not an idea is a fact. It's like a data point. You can't say, you know, dads are tired after a long day of work. You have to cite it, which is ridiculous. And then what's. Furthermore, I've never seen in the last 10 years anyone actually check a site of fact. So I don't even know. And I know we're liars in this industry, so that's a whole other thing. But you get to these 90 page decks and it's exhausting, you know, and it becomes so academic and there's so many twists and turns and you can't just show an idea and say, do we think this is interesting? Do you think this is good? It's, it's in no way visceral. And, and as I was kind of struggling through that, someone talked to me about the Airbnb pitch deck. Have you heard about this? Is anyone. Apparently it's like the best. The best Silicon Valley pitch deck was for their round two funding and they were selling a brand new proposition. The idea of like, you're going to rent out your basement to a stranger.
- [35:28]
Fergus O'Carroll
Am I a land?
- [35:28]
Chris Beresford
Am I a hotel? What do I have to do? The business was brand new and in nine pages they explained it and their plans and their revenue model and they raised their entire second round of funding. And if I can't sell a fucking social campaign in 90 pages, these guys raised millions for an idea that didn't even, you know, really didn't exist before. So I think we've got to like just the Ideas are still in there but the insecurity is just making the whole thing horrible soup. These meetings just go on and on. It's just more things for someone to kill or question. So yeah, the idea is still in there.
- [36:03]
Fergus O'Carroll
We're sent our way to that point for you with the people that you're dealing with with that higher altitude of relationship on a day to day basis. Do they want what Chris is talking about? Do they want us to strip out a lot of the what seems like unnecessary to focus on simple and just get to the point quick.
- [36:21]
Johnny Bauer
Yeah, I mean I think if advertising or something bigger simples.
- [36:25]
Fergus O'Carroll
Let me bring you that mic.
- [36:26]
Johnny Bauer
Usually better but I think what you're talking about is like an idea that was for the company.
- [36:31]
Chris Beresford
That's right.
- [36:32]
Johnny Bauer
Right. So and it was clear and it may not have needed that embellishment. So we're always like what's just the fastest path. People are so sick of all of it. Sometimes, you know, we've, you know, do the rigor to understand and torture test things.
- [36:46]
Chris Beresford
But Johnny and I are having different kind of meetings. I'm having the turn the mascot into an edible sacrifice at the bowl game meetings and Johnny is like here's how you're going to make.
- [36:56]
Johnny Bauer
No, it's certainly not easy and it requires different types of consensus building to get to that narrative because there are lots of different constituents. So you've got, you know, you've got the investment company but then you've also got the leadership team and they need a constant together around an idea too. So there is definitely a component of selling but we try and keep our debt short.
- [37:21]
Fergus O'Carroll
We'll be right back. We're thrilled to be supported by the effie's. For over 55 years effie has been the global authority on marketing effectiveness. They lead the way with the largest, most prestigious marketing effectiveness awards across 125 markets worldwide. And their coveted FE Index ranks the most effective brands, marketers and agencies globally. But EFFIE is more than awards. They're dedicated to helping all marketers, from seasoned CMOs to those just getting started, understand what makes marketing effective by equipping them with insights, tools and inspiration they need to succeed. Learn more@effie.org that's e f f I e.org this series is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps you answ. The question is what we're doing working. A not so secret fact is that companies pay 100,000 or more for brand tracking which is out of the question. For modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit has been built by marketers for marketers and makes brand tracking 10 times easier and 10 times more affordable. Their research experts do the heavy lifting by using best in class practices to craft the questions and get your survey live. Tracksuit surveys thousands of people each week from panels of millions around the world to give you full visibility of your brand health in 30 days. With insights updated for your brand daily. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure, understand and communicate the value of brand building. Check them out@gotracksuit.com that's gotracksuit.com now back to the show. So the flip side of this is do we need original ideas? Do companies need original ideas in order to achieve growth?
- [39:25]
Johnny Bauer
Yes, I think that ideas for companies need to be inimitable. Right? No one else should be able to put their name on an idea. I used to work for John Haggerty a long, long time ago and he used to say, Jonathan, interrogate a company until it confesses and what's the truth that only they can say about themselves and build around that. And I do think if you've got an idea that another company could connect to, then it's just what you do with that idea. How do you use that idea to create a moat around your idea that enables it not just to be true around your difference now, but to make that difference more true over time? So if this is our difference, how do we then become more different or stay different? And I do believe that every company has its own only idea.
- [40:18]
Laura Rowan
I think that's incredibly true. I think that the challenge is when you think about it through the lens of advertising campaigns. And I do think there's a little bit of what that saying of there's nothing new but the history you don't know. I think some of the things that we grapple with as creating calm. Right. Versus I think building companies and what Johnny's doing is like you are kind of looking about almost how to recontextualize very familiar themes. Right. When I think about the endurance and the power of Nike, I mean they are very tried and true human themes recontextualized for culture.
- [40:51]
Fergus O'Carroll
Right.
- [40:51]
Laura Rowan
Like Dove talking about a very powerful truth that women feel not beautiful and then owning real beauty.
- [40:58]
Johnny Bauer
So I think can we have our first like fight on the thing?
- [41:02]
Marcus Gartrell
Oh, no.
- [41:03]
Johnny Bauer
But it's more. But I do agree with you and I'm wearing Spanx too. I can get you discount. Yeah. So it's. But I do think that if a company is really clear on what it is fundamentally, then there would be a way that only they would tell that story. That is that people could see from a distance or recognize or make sense, or be processed and digested in a way that resonates faster.
- [41:28]
Fergus O'Carroll
But sometimes the uniqueness or the originality is in how you express and contextualize the idea. So you can actually own something similar by expressing it in a very unique way. So the uniqueness is coming from the communication, not from the core idea.
- [41:46]
Johnny Bauer
Yeah, but the brand, if it's really clearly defined, will then connect to how it is communicated. That is also inimitable. Right. So I do think even communication should be, you know, easily identifiable. And there is a big gap between, you know, a company's identity and their advertising identity. And so I try and bridge that. I think you're right that that gap.
- [42:11]
Laura Rowan
I mean you look at a brand like Oatly, right? Like there's, there's multiple Oat milks, I feel like. But like I think what Oatly is committed to is like the product, the design, the tone of voice, how they talk about everything, how they've taken on a category. Like, I mean everything is their, is the message, is their media.
- [42:28]
Johnny Bauer
Right.
- [42:28]
Laura Rowan
Like, I think that's a perfect example.
- [42:29]
Johnny Bauer
Of what you're saying.
- [42:29]
Fergus O'Carroll
And you can, you can look at, I mean even on the show, an awful lot of the, the campaigns on the show, if you think about it, they're. They've been done before.
- [42:38]
Marcus Gartrell
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:39]
Fergus O'Carroll
Just being done a little bit differently.
- [42:41]
Marcus Gartrell
Marcus.
- [42:42]
Johnny Bauer
Yeah, I agree.
- [42:42]
Marcus Gartrell
I think it's. I think both sides are right because I think that there needs to be something that's ownable about the idea to the brand that we are speaking for. I don't want to speak for Chris, but I do feel like there's a bit of the originality thing feels. Is there a brand new idea? I'm not sure if that's true, but I do think at one point there was someone said to me, you should state an idea like it's a memory which feels inherently connected to like something that's actually true and in the person that we didn't necessarily create, that didn't exist before. So I think there is some version of familiarity that needs to be stated in an ownable different way that creates these interesting ideas or recontextualizing something. So I think that sort of there are all these universal experience that could just be expressed very differently. And I think that's what makes something feel original, even if it's Something that feels familiar.
- [43:30]
Chris Beresford
What we do has to be relatable. Therefore, people must be able to relate to it. So there must be something that either speaks to human experience or ideas that we all understand. And you've got to put a twist on it and you've got to make it fresh and you've got to make it unexpected, but also, you know, years later, you will really love maybe something done in our industry that's really avant garde, but usually it doesn't quite land then. So I think familiarity is essential.
- [43:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
I remember Aaron Sadlak, who I think is still sitting behind me. Are you There he is. So Aaron and I worked together at an agency called Sarkissian Mason. He was creative director and I was a plan. And so there'd be groups of us and we would all sit around and ideas would be generated. And I always was like, that is a great idea, but the timing isn't right for that because that's so far ahead from where our audience is right now. And it's cool and it has great utility, but it's going to be hard to scale. It's two or three early. Does that connect with any of you in terms of. Sometimes we generate things that are awesome. They're just not ready, they're not baked yet, or the market's not ready for it.
- [44:47]
Chris Beresford
Yes, but I think that's just part. That's just the process. That's like partnering with your strategy partner, talking to your other creatives and saying, is this too far for them now? Can they go out and do this? Will it be too much of a left turn? But it's not. I mean, to me, at least, it's not super intellectual. You're just saying, like. Like, can they get away with this? Can you be this tomorrow? And if you can't, it's probably not the right idea.
- [45:10]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah.
- [45:10]
Marcus Gartrell
Yeah, agreed. I think there's a lot of ideas that do exist like that, that we've even been a part of that feels like when you first bring them up, it's a combination of the client might not be ready, the strategy might not be ready, the audience might not be ready, and there are sort of breadcrumbs you lead to get to the point where you can make those sorts of ideas. So it does happen, and I think it does take sort of a bit of patience and resilience to get to the point where you can bring those things to life and then enjoy the spoils of them. Because, yes, if you brought these up far too early, you know, the audience wouldn't give A damn about it and you've just kind of created something for yourself and not for them.
- [45:51]
Fergus O'Carroll
Let's turn the corner and talk about AI. What are the implications for AI on ideas and idea generation? What, what do you think, Laura? What are tough one.
- [46:06]
Marcus Gartrell
I'm glad she got it first.
- [46:08]
Laura Rowan
Look, here's what I would say and this probably is trite because everyone's talking about AI. I think first of all, anyone who's claiming they're an expert in AI is ridiculous. So just like that's just my warning. I, I think it's like anything, it's a tool.
- [46:22]
Fergus O'Carroll
Right.
- [46:22]
Laura Rowan
I think, think anyone who's also saying is a luddite, who's like, AI is a fad and it's going to replace everyone and I don't care. And some agencies are saying you can't use it is ridiculous. Like we need to understand it, master it, use it in its right, in its right way. I, I think there are benefits to AI that I have seen be very helpful. Like there's, there's usefulness to maybe needing. Like I need a really interesting comp that like actually is going to save me time that's going to help sell this idea. I need to put something, this idea into a video form with the right VO in 45 minutes and it happens. And it's going to be a really good sell tool to like bring this to Life. I've used ChatGPT because I wanted to see what would come out. I think it's knowledge that already exists. So if you're ever thinking that it's predictive of the future, I think that's where it goes awry. But I think gaming it and using it to maybe be more efficient in other areas of your life so you can be more creative over here and using it like any other tool to make you better, I think is a good thing that we should continue to explore.
- [47:24]
Fergus O'Carroll
I hear that response pretty common, but in my mind I'm going, oh wait, wait, there is something bigger that's going to happen. Johnny, do you have a sense of what might be.
- [47:39]
Johnny Bauer
Again, no crystal ball, but yeah, I think I agree on the expertise front. It's still an embryonic form and you know, we use AI as intentionally as we can to try and help us take a lot of the legwork to scale and make us faster and better and more efficient. And you know, it can translate, you know, data into decks really easily in a way that you can then overlay a ton of analysis to make a strategist job much, much Easier. I think it, you know, the truth is it can answer many of the questions that we're paid to answer and has done a job of democratizing mediocrity when it comes to strategy and creative like. And that is something that we can't ignore for our industry in all of its guises. So how does it enable us to understand. Understand more about the company faster to then put. To understand what moments we need to take leaps that only a human can do. But I do think it's incredible to. It's changed a lot of the way that we think about working and what looks like. And there's a lot of. There's less blank sheets of paper now, right. There are different start points. So then how do you take advantage of that and how do you, how do you push it further? And I think, you know, it's just also really interesting working with some companies whose sole purpose is to help other companies get ready to leverage AI and that kind of AI readiness because again, it can only be used as much as companies will allow them or are ready to use. It has been, has been fascinating. But I think, yeah, it's, it's, it's like we don't even know the beginning of where this is going.
- [49:30]
Marcus Gartrell
I think to Lara's point, I think there's a lot of value to it at the end of the process when it comes to like production and things like that. I think it's a lot of value to it also at the beginning of the process because to me the generative point is so interesting. It feels like an additional wing of the team. It doesn't really have any human connection points to pull from which I think is always going to be valuable from our industry is to have a human that brings a human perspective to connect with humans, but it is an extension of your brain in the way that like the same way you would concept with a partner and throw it thoughts that are in your mind and get it to return things back to you can create new iterative versions of ideas that I think are very valuable. And I think that like us being able to have a spectrum of reference points for it to pull from, to bring us new perspectives is super valuable. And I think that's just going to continue because I think if you don't have any interest in it, you'll be very left behind at some point because it's a tool. The same way if you're an art director that never learned Photoshop, you would not have a job for very long. But I don't know that it's ever. It could get to the place where it does replace a lot of the mediocrity that exists in the world. But we've joked a little bit about like, will there one day be an award at the feature where it's like the best ad made by humans because it's taken over and taken over all the advertising and to see ad on TV that goes, this ad was completely made by humans at the end would be meaningful. And people go, oh my God, that's impressive. The way we're now impressed when there's something created by AI. So it's a part. I think it should be a part of that process and a part of teams, but I don't think it will completely overtake them.
- [51:09]
Chris Beresford
I participated at CAN in a Google Lighthouse project where they let agencies with a client get early access to a beta and show like what they would do on the new Gemini. And so I won't say names, but it was a bunch of pretty good agencies and some real clients. And I watched the whole thing with bated breath to see how soon I'm going to be out of a job. And the thing that I was left with was I saw a pretty good idea and the AI made it like a lot of pretty good. And then I saw like a garbage idea and it was just like a lot of garbage. And then I saw a great idea and I was like, oh my God, you've unlocked the capability. So as far as like how it can be used as a creative tool, not like a creative assistant, but as a creative tool. It can't make bad. I don't believe it can make bad things into good. It just can make like AI will make bad agencies and clients more bad and it will make great agencies and clients greater. Like that's it. As it relates to creative output. Not like the data and all that other stuff. I don't understand that.
- [52:19]
Marcus Gartrell
Well, it's. Every technology is only as good as the human that uses it. So if you go on with bad intentions, you're going to get something bad out of it. You know, Twitter is not inherently bad.
- [52:27]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah. The next growing skill set I think for planners and for creatives is being really good at prompt prompts. Yeah, I suck at prompts. I've tried to create images and I'm like, it's so frustrated in mid journey trying to find a beach in California. And so that's a whole skill set that I think great planners and great creators are going to need as a maybe that redefines partly there needs to be so many great prompting skills on a team. Is a team going to be an art director and a creative and a strategist? I mean, what's going to be.
- [52:58]
Johnny Bauer
It's not that far an evolution from what a good strategist has always been. The ability to ask the right questions. And it's just a different form that that takes. But, yeah, we have competitions to see who can do better. There's a lot of work to be done.
- [53:14]
Fergus O'Carroll
So just a few final questions. One is opinions here. What does Wyden and Kennedy look like in 10 years? Same question will be for the other two.
- [53:30]
Marcus Gartrell
Really great. No, I think it's amalgamation of a lot of the things I think we heard earlier. Like, one of the things you asked Chris about, like, would you guys create a brand? I think that's an important part of what widening cane needs to be. Something that stuck with me a couple years ago was there was a poll of the top five jobs that kids wanted to be when they grew up up, and astronaut was no longer one of them. And, like, just the idea that, like, that level of dreaming left children's world. And the number one job was YouTube influencer was confronting. Like, not frightening, but confronting. Because inherently you go, well, these kids don't want to grow up to do the things that I thought they wanted to do before. Where does advertising fall in the gamut of that sort of thing? Right. So, like, like, we need to create a space that inherently becomes very interesting to young people for us to even survive as an industry. And I think within that context, a lot of what we talked about in this conversation and being on this precipice of what the future ideas looks like, we need to be creating things that inherently make kids look up to advertising the way that we did before. So our output needs to be just as meaningfully all the sort of truths that existed when Dan and Dave started this place 40 plus years ago, you know, and Dan said, you know, great advertising is a conversation between two people overheard by everyone. When that was said, it was a lot about, like, print ads and tv, what the shape of that thing looks like in the future to make a kid really proud of the place that Wyvern Kennedy is, is a part of what we really need to build in this future. So I think in 10 years, the outputs that we make will be completely different because of some of the relationships we have with our clients where we're not just saying, what Wyden McKinney does is make the ad of the thing you made. What's the real business problem, how can we bring our creativity to our clients to create products, create new things, name things, make all these different sorts of inputs that inherently become the version of an idea that some 20 year old says. It's so cool that Wyon and Kennedy made this. I need to come back to that place. And I think our reel won't be full of traditional spots. It'll be full of both the, these non traditional unfamiliar versions of ideas that people love and will be full of the people who make those sorts of ideas. So I don't think art directors and copywriters will look the way they look now because they'll be so interested in a different version of creativity than we were when we ripped magazine ads.
- [55:54]
Fergus O'Carroll
Just so everybody knows that, I'm going to ask the guys to each answer this, then I'm going to open up to the floor. We'll take a couple of questions before. So this would be my last question to the panel.
- [56:04]
Laura Rowan
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's exactly right. Like, I think to me it's to continue to double down on what we're trying to be here, which is truly a creative solutions company. Right. Like really seeing the breadth and depth of where creativity can go. And like, I get excited about thinking about Wynne and Kennedy IP and our shared IP with clients and what we're truly creating. And like the brand is the idea. Right. Like, I think that that is very powerful and I think there's multiple ways to execute that. We are building platforms for our brand to sit on and there should be no balance to what we're doing. And that's what excites me. And I think, yeah, like to Marcus's point, like opening up what is an art director? What is the corporate, what's the role of strategy and the expertise of strategists providing? I think that gets really interesting.
- [56:46]
Johnny Bauer
Yeah.
- [56:47]
Fergus O'Carroll
Chris, what about BBDO 10 years from now?
- [56:50]
Chris Beresford
Do you feel the question again was.
- [56:53]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah, what do you. What would, what will BBDO look like 10 years from now, given everything we've talked about to.
- [57:00]
Chris Beresford
I think BBDO 10 years from now will look happier because I think the industry, like we are really coming out of the weeds right now. We were out of the weeds when it was tv, print, radio. You reach everyone, you need to reach through that. You leave at 5:00. You know, you say, all right, good, it's going to be do the do. And then you could go and, and play golf or do whatever you did. And then you couldn't guarantee those audiences and Then you started getting insecure and saying, well, then we need to think about all the media channels. And we kind of lost touch with the audiences and we started chasing all the places you could put messages, not where you should put messages. And then, because that wasn't working, and all of a sudden the platform started taking some of the spend away and working directly with your clients. Then you start, you know, forcing innovation, and then you start selling those innovations as the solutions, even if they're not really the solutions, they're just the nervous anxiety solutions you're making. We're coming out of all that. It just comes back to, what is your, what is your business problem? What is your business opportunity? Let's talk about an audience, either a very obvious one, or let's discover one. And then where the fuck are they hanging out? And then talk to them. And in 10 years, we're going to be back to solving big business problems, doing that. And we're not going to think we need to hire 40 people to build our own generative AI lab just to feel like we're not irrelevant. So I think we will come back to owning still a great ad agency, still a great copywriter, strategist, art director, creative director, can tell a story for a brand that will make someone choose that brand for 50 years. And so that's like, we will get back to that.
- [58:49]
Johnny Bauer
Tony, a really hard question to answer. We've been open 10 months and we're asking to understand you're going to be bigger. What happens in 10 years? And I was really, like, processing the question while you guys were speaking. I think the thing that I want for it to be is like, open, you know, and still, still, still, still going in some form. But, you know, hopefully it's just, you know, you know, still just like a really, like, connected group of people that are unified by a willingness to try and have what we do, like, matter more. And, you know, the ad guy used to sit next to the CEO and then they like, kept getting pushed down the table and now they're like, not in the room. And we want to make brand matter. And there may be various guises and forms and permutations of the company that enables it to do that, but I think it's kind of more connected to that mission of creativity does matter and can be tangibly linked to value creation for companies. And so hopefully we're just delivering that in whatever form makes sense at the time. And 10 years.
- [60:03]
Fergus O'Carroll
So we are, we're over here on your right, guys, question.
- [60:07]
Chris Beresford
Oh, hey, friends. I'm Emily Portnoy, CSO at bbdo so I observed that there was a lot of talk tonight about what we should stop doing. We should definitely stop chasing a lot of things. We should stop chasing AI. We stop chasing this and that. You actually asked not to call you out but since you did invite me tonight, I'm going to call you out. You said, you know. Oh, you cut me off. Oh, there you go. What should we tell people? Sort of, you know, what's the advice for five, ten years from now for the companies? But we have, I don't know, 500 people in this room tonight. So you have been very clear about we should stop doing, we should stop chasing things, stop chasing to be relevant. Stop chasing things that make us more irrelevant. What should we all start doing? Because you have the industry here listening to you tonight, so would love a thought on what we should all start doing.
- [60:54]
Laura Rowan
I think we have to remember there's a little bit of like the magic of the gut in this business. Like and look, kudos to work and Effie like I believe as a strategist in the, in the science of effectiveness and I think there's a tremendous thing that we have to do to get things right, to drive businesses and to measure it. But I also think like anything there's an art and science of this, right? There's magic. And I think follow your gut, believe in your perspective, you have, have a point of view on things. You live this life, you observe it like be a person first. Right. And I said it earlier like we do not at Wyden say that we are experts in advertising because we make great ads. We are still studying humanity. And so I just encourage you to continue to hang on to like how does a human talk and think? Because for the young people getting in this industry it gets sucked out of you quickly like you will in no time being like, like how do we drive relevance with Gen Z? And so like try not to do that. Just that's what I would say. Start doing that. I didn't do that. Start doing that more.
- [61:55]
Marcus Gartrell
Yeah. And to double down and piggyback on that. I think that like use your creativity to solve actual business problems. It's easy for us to think about our creativity being an output instead of a bunch of inputs that let us be creative. So finding what your actual clients need actually makes for much more interesting versions of ideas. And that's kind of the future of advertising in my mind is what can we who have traditionally been raised in a specific way of advertising find as opportunities to Be creative on top of. And I think that's what actually resonates with people a lot more. Because centering the audience and being in a gut instinct of what they want to connect with, finding a client who believes they're trying to connect with Gen Z but being genuine about what their actual problems are allows you to create a space for both of those audiences to connect. And that feels like the most exciting thing to me is like there are so many new surfaces and new versions of what creativity can be and that's what makes the future a lot more exciting.
- [62:55]
Chris Beresford
Hi Em. You could have told me you had this question before, so I could have had a smart answer, but you didn't hook me up. Refuse to make this harder than it is. We connect with audiences for a living. Stop.
- [63:13]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah, I like that too. Question here in the center.
- [63:17]
Chris Beresford
Hi, my name is Yashas and I'm a creative director. My question is all for review, but especially Marcus and Chris because you spoke a little bit about this, about the future of creative teams and if I understood right, both of you had very different sort of, you know, answers to that one was Mark as you felt it was going to be very different. And Chris, you said we're going to go back to valuing what we have now in terms of formats.
- [63:46]
Marcus Gartrell
Would you be able to explain that a little bit more for both of you? I hope they weren't different.
- [63:52]
Chris Beresford
I was agreeing with him. I hope I wasn't contradicting myself.
- [63:55]
Marcus Gartrell
Now I think in my mind the difference isn't so much that it won't be an art director and a copywriter. Because even to the earlier. I'm going to tangent to all of our questions. The AI prompt thing, to your point, like we need to have more prompts. To me that's no different than if you hired an art director that never saw any movies. Like if you don't have film references to pull when you go to a shoot to have a point of view on what the actual film should look like. Like you're not going to be a very good art director. So inherently those skills are the same. I think those backgrounds can be different, the sort of generational experiences are different. I think that's what's going to change because I do think that like we're still traditionally solving the same problems, focusing on the same audiences, bringing our creative point of view to a problem for a business. It's just your background might be different and like your multi glottedness may be different. You know, the amount of people you're A creative director. I'm sure you've met a lot of 19 year olds that are creative directors. That didn't exist 20 years ago. We didn't meet creative directors that just got out of school, but because they've existed on TikTok, have audiences have all these sorts of things, they are inherently creative directors. And that is a very genuine experience that we never had that is interesting and valuable to the industry. And I think that's going to be. Be what we continue to evolve to. I don't know if that covered with. I think we're.
- [65:17]
Chris Beresford
You got me.
- [65:19]
Fergus O'Carroll
Okay, we have another question here in the center.
- [65:23]
Marcus Gartrell
John Dilley, head of comms. Johannes Leonardo. The part of the conversation you had around the future shape of ideas and what's keeping you, what keeps agencies from really landing or chasing that future, that current or future shape of ideas was really interesting. I guess I want to ask a more human question like, how do you guys in your careers avoid the trap of muscle memory? Because it's as a comms planner who sees all these shapes of ideas out there, leading the best comms team in the business. That's right. J.L. like, it's something that we run into every single day. So how do you, how do you, how do you just like break out of that shell and avoid doing the same thing? And if you have to, we will steal them mercilessly.
- [66:10]
Laura Rowan
I mean, first of all, hi, John. So good to see you. You are the best contouragist in my opinion. I think that's a great question. Right? It's funny, Marcus and I were in a conversation earlier today about like, there's a real like best practices and what's been happening to our industry. It's a real gravitational pull toward mediocrity. And let's let like obsession of the past that happens of like, what's the framework I can do? What's the analog to this problem? Like, sometimes there is an urgency, then speed to go like, oh, this problem's like this problem. And here's what we did. I think the way to avoid it is. And again, it sounds trite. And so it's like the more that you can get out of this kind of acting as a marketer, an expert in advertising and go, how do real humans talk about this? What are we having? And I feel like we are at our best when there's work on the wall and there's slides up and we're worried about the deck or the cell, but we're just going, let's just interrogate this and beat it up and challenge each other and like, really question how we're perceiving things and how those things are landing and really being selective about, like, each word matters and how we're articulating our thoughts. Because I think the more you can kind of like, like, it's funny, right? Because like, we talk a lot about modern marketing. There's so many surfaces, right? Like suddenly this chair is now new media and we can do something really poignant and say something really provocative. But I think this obsession a little bit with like, everything is media and executions are everywhere is making the industry, I think, a little bit lazy on what's the idea? And I think the more that we can force ourselves to say what is the actual fucking idea that we are saying, it gets us out of the muscle memory, I think, and forces us to go, what is this idea? How is it pure and unique? And then what is the best way to bring this out into the world?
- [68:01]
Fergus O'Carroll
Another question here at the back.
- [68:05]
Chris Beresford
Hey, guys, I'm Andrew.
- [68:07]
Marcus Gartrell
I'm a strategist at Droga5.
- [68:09]
Chris Beresford
In the post Johnny Bauer era and.
- [68:11]
Marcus Gartrell
More recently the post John Daly era.
- [68:14]
Chris Beresford
One of the key themes that kind.
- [68:16]
Marcus Gartrell
Of felt like it was coming up was fluidity.
- [68:18]
Chris Beresford
At an ideal level, you have an.
- [68:19]
Johnny Bauer
Idea that can stretch to an innovation.
- [68:21]
Chris Beresford
An ad, an execution tactic, whatever it is.
- [68:24]
Marcus Gartrell
I'm curious to get your perspective on where you guys see the role of.
- [68:28]
Fergus O'Carroll
Strategy ending in creative beginning.
- [68:32]
Chris Beresford
And if you feel like there's any.
- [68:33]
Marcus Gartrell
Blurring of the lines that will happen more so now than what we're seeing.
- [68:36]
Chris Beresford
Right now or not at all. I don't know if the super modern work would affect the relationship between creating. I think over the last few years you have this strategy has to be one click away from the creative idea or you will never get a today marketer into it. Maybe 10, 15 years ago, you could have these really vibey strategies that were a leap from the client brief, and then you could leap from the strategy that seems inconceivable today to have a creative interpretation of the client brief and then interpretation of that. I think today strategy and creative have to be completely dialed into the idea together. Then I think when you unleash it, whether you've got a great comms partner, whether you're winging it a little bit, I think that is kind of once you've got a great idea, it'll take whatever shape is out there, you know, whether it's influencer today. And then when influencer gets regulated, it'll be whatever it is. Tomorrow. But I think that that part is in some ways sort of, you know, that's what will always change, but the great idea. And I do think like the strategy and the creative have to be super close together. And I don't think it had to be like that in the past.
- [69:51]
Johnny Bauer
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that the best ideas are inclusive ideas that everyone can use and to get to the right ones, you know, we bring creative really upfront together with strategic ideas. If you're going to come up with a company idea, it has to because there are many potential paths for a company, but they may not be able to execute them based on a ton of different reasons. It could be timing, could be capabilities, could be bandwidth, could be what their objectives are. So working with as many different parts of the leadership throughout the company can really help vet not what is just a good idea, but what is a doable idea for the company to actually like absorb. So I think it's yes, creatives to understand the fertility of it in relation to more traditional creativity. Is this going to feel good in any kind of creative, but more so is this a company? Is this an idea. Sorry that this company is actually able to go with right now. And so we kind of present them in tears. You've said you've got this Objection. You said you've got this objective. Here then is the scorched earth version of what your company could become. Now, in order to live up to that idea, you have to make some pretty significant infrastructural changes. Are you prepared to do that? Is there the appetite? Is there the possibility, while over here may be more of a repositioning of what already exists and then how do you go execute that? Most are somewhere in between. Right. I think from our collective backgrounds in history, there is always like, you have to make the idea a bit more true for real before you start talking. But the inclusivity from all elements of the company, I think is going beyond just the creative folks too.
- [71:43]
Fergus O'Carroll
Last question over here on the right. Hi, my name is Wu Pei.
- [71:50]
Laura Rowan
I'm a student at the Fashion Institute of Technology.
- [71:52]
Johnny Bauer
I wanted to ask, I don't think.
- [71:54]
Laura Rowan
You guys do offer internships, but for.
- [71:57]
Fergus O'Carroll
New hires or if you work with the talent acquisition team, what makes a.
- [72:01]
Laura Rowan
Candidate stand out as they are entering the workforce?
- [72:04]
Johnny Bauer
For me it was our intern came from Munich this summer and she just put together an amazing video that helped me understand understand how she thinks and went. So I think that it is custom to this company. She looked at our client list and she proactively made this video of what she would do with the company. She wasn't grounded in the realities of what was plausible, so it didn't matter that it. But I got a very clear sense of who this person was and how she thinks and what the ambition was. And, you know, we flew her out the next week.
- [72:37]
Marcus Gartrell
We talk a lot about and about, like, having a point of view on the world. And that's, I think, the most interesting thing for us here. Like, if we find candidates that have an actual perspective on whatever it is that they are pointing that perspective at, it's inherently valuable. And it feels like something that we can bottle up to point at any sort of problem because every assignment that we have, it feels like again, when we talked about the brain world and the. The actual world that we all exist in every single day, bringing that perspective to our clients is what's going to make a more interesting output because it needs to exist in the world that we all exist in. So I think that, like, being classically trained is incredible. Having a perspective is more important than all of that. You could be classically trained, but just do things that, again, if they're not original or just feel familiar, it's not great. But if you have a perspective, whether that's a Twitter account, a TikTok account, whether you do fashion, whether you do anything, it's like, that's an interesting way to look at the world.
- [73:38]
Fergus O'Carroll
So as you can imagine, for a planner coming up, to think that you would eventually be sitting where I'm sitting, talking to great people like this, it's an amazing experience. This episode will be edited very slightly though. Probably just cut myself out in parts and will air as an episode in a couple of weeks. I want to thank once again our sponsors, Tracksuit, the Effys, and our great friends at WARC for making all of this possible. And Wyden and Kennedy, thank you all and good night.
- [74:14]
Johnny Bauer
Can I say one thing? Tracksuit is awesome. You should all use it. They're an amazing company.
- [74:20]
Fergus O'Carroll
I agree.
- [74:21]
Johnny Bauer
Really awesome.
- [74:22]
Fergus O'Carroll
I am slightly biased.
- [74:23]
Johnny Bauer
Put in a plug. I love that company.
- [74:24]
Fergus O'Carroll
Thanks a lot. Have a safe whatever it is you get home to. Bye now. What a fun night it was at Wieden. Be sure to check out our upcoming live show from Chicago on Thursday, December 5th. It's going to be a holiday ads special and it's going to be a ton of fun. Tickets are available now on our website under the live tour tab@onstrategyshowcase.com that's onstrategyshowcase.com and we'll see everyone back here on the next episode.