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- [00:00]
Fergus O'Carroll
Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O'Carroll in Chicago. Today's episode was recorded live at Rethink's offices in Toronto. A few weeks ago we had a great conversation with some really intelligent folks who work for independent agencies. We titled the conversation Rise of the Indies. And it's a conversation about indie culture, indie values, indie people, indie opportunity and looking at the agencies and what has really driven them and created opportunities for them to do the great work that they've been doing for some great global brands. Now, there's always a tension at the heart of indies when they start out and as they grow, it's the question about whether you are running away from something or whether you are running towards something. And I think when you hear the voices of these different CSOs that we had on our panel, you can get a really clear sense about how they feel about it and what motivates them. And I think with this new crop of indies, they've seen what has happened to some of those who have gone before them and I think they're making some really good course corrections to be able to make it successful long, long term. Now these are not small startup shops. You've got some medium sized shops in here. So this is really about companies that are already working with global brands on a global stage. So I'm excited about that. Our live tour continues April 16th in Sydney, Australia. We're going to be at the Special group. It is a Wednesday night. It is 6 to 8pm since we're traveling 22 hours on a flight to get down there, which I'm completely dreading, we're gonna be down there for two weeks. So we're not only gonna be recording live in Sydney on April 16, but we're gonna be in Auckland, New Zealand the following week which is April 23. It's Wednesday, April 23 and in Auckland we're gonna be recording live at Colenso Bbdo. You can get tickets for both shows this coming week. The week of the 11th or so of under the live tour tab on our homepage@onstrategyshowcase.com thank you again as I always do to our live tour supporters. They are Tracksuit, the affordable brand tracking solution for modern day brands. Warc W A R C and the Effies. Really thrilled that these brands have supported our tour. We've been to Europe, we've been through North America and now we're heading down to Australia and New Zealand. Be sure to support these brands in the same way in the same level that they're supporting our industry. So here is Heather Siegel, chief strategy officer for Zulu Alpha Kilo. Sean McDonald, who is partner and global chief strategy officer for Rethink. Tom Kenney is partner and chief strategy officer at Courage. And Jay Carney is chief strategy officer and founder of Broken Heart Love Affair. Enjoy. Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O'Carroll in Toronto. That might be the best actual cheer we've gotten in any city so far. So you guys kicked that ass. That was great. I want to welcome our guests tonight. Sean McDonald, global CSO and partner at Rethink. Heather Siegel, CSO at Zulu Alpha Kilo. Tom Kenny, CSO and partner at Courage. And Jay Cheney, partner and founder of Broken Heart Love Affair. Four great talents. We are really excited to have them with us tonight. The topic is the rise of the independents. I wanted to focus on this because this is something that's not only relevant to this great city, but to cities around the world. There's great indie shops almost in every. But there are some that are pretty damn remarkable and an awful lot of them are coming out of here. These guys are doing work that is not only noticed and appreciated in Canada, but is seen and noticed in major markets around the world. I think that's very evident by the brands that these guys are working on. The work that we're going to talk about tonight and the way we're going to talk about this is really obviously through the eyes of these CSOs. They're representing their agencies, but this show is about strategy. So we're going to look at it through the lens of being a strategist at one of these shops. I think what we may do just for people who are listening in. And we'll start with Heather. Tell us a little bit about your shop, how long it's been around, size, some clients, just to get us started.
- [04:58]
Heather Siegel
Yeah. Thanks so much. So work at Zulu Alpha Kilo. It's been around since 2008. It was founded by Zach. Zulu Alpha Kilo actually left an Indy on the verge of selling to do his own thing, to really make a mark. And I'm sure we'll talk a lot about purpose today, but at Zulu, our purpose is to fight.
- [05:18]
Fergus O'Carroll
Or not.
- [05:19]
Jay Carney
Or not.
- [05:20]
Heather Siegel
Get a strategist in the room. The purpose of Zulu Alpha Kilo is to fight sameness. You know, we think being boring is a really expensive proposition. And we are here to bring distinctiveness to creativity. And we've been doing a great job at it for many years. Campaign Ad Age, the Drum. Everyone has given us an agency of the year status at some point that we've built to three offices, so Toronto, Vancouver and New York. And we're over 180 zooligans, which is what we call ourselves.
- [05:52]
Fergus O'Carroll
So some of the clients include booking.com, subaru, Sephora, Campbell's, and you do have that office in New York. So is it part of global domination? Is that part of the end game?
- [06:06]
Heather Siegel
I think we just are there where creativity is needed.
- [06:12]
Fergus O'Carroll
So, Sean, tell us about Rethink.
- [06:14]
Sean McDonald
Yeah, sure. So Rethink was founded in 1999. We just celebrated our 25th anniversary and we talk about it in a few ways. In one way, it's a one word business model where we're constantly looking to challenge the status quo, to improve things. Not just to rethink everything, but to improve things. And if you work here, you feel that every day every single person here is looking to improve not just the work, but our relationships with each other, with our clients. And it's a very ambitious place. I mean, the founders founded it because they worked at ddb and it just didn't inspire them. And so they started an agency where they could do great work and have a good life. And we try and do that to this day. So we've got four offices founded in Vancouver, expanded to Toronto and Montreal, and then two years ago in New York. We're about 400 people overall. Yeah. And so we're a very passionate agency. We're very ambitious and unapologetically entrepreneurial.
- [07:08]
Fergus O'Carroll
So the one that I'm most familiar with is the Heinz work. And you guys have been on the show with that work, which is just brilliant work.
- [07:16]
Sean McDonald
Thank you.
- [07:17]
Fergus O'Carroll
I read today that you guys, when you started out, you guys offered a money back guarantee. Is that true or is that just.
- [07:24]
Sean McDonald
Listen, we did all kinds of things that we don't do anymore. I mean, you know, there's a few things that you see in every Rethink office. You'll see AstroTurf, you'll see Ping pong tables, and you'll see a drum kit. Now, the AstroTurf is because it was cheaper than carpeting. The ping pong tables are because it was cheaper than a boardroom table. But the drum kit was because that was how the very first job was paid for. They couldn't afford it. Money. Oh, really?
- [07:45]
Fergus O'Carroll
Wow.
- [07:46]
Sean McDonald
And so we were given a drum kit. And so now every office has that as sort of like a humble, you know, memory of that, of that first transaction.
- [07:52]
Fergus O'Carroll
So all of you guys Came out of what we might call, I mean, traditional shop is the wrong label for. Texi was not a traditional shop. But you come out of big shops. I mean, Tom, you came out of Ogilvy before. Tell us about Courage.
- [08:06]
Tom Kenney
So Courage is the youngest of the four agencies up on the stage today. We are coming up on two and a half years. We were founded by Joe Holtby and Deval Bott and we're also for the American listeners. We're part of the Grid Collective, which includes us, NFA and Mischief. And yeah, we started because we thought the industry could use more Courage. I joined the agency. So it's two and a half years old. I joined about two months in.
- [08:36]
Fergus O'Carroll
And so mischief is also mischief USA. Greg Hahn and Jeff McCrory, who was here tonight, they're also part of that collective.
- [08:45]
Tom Kenney
Exactly.
- [08:46]
Fergus O'Carroll
Now, I read earlier about you that you said that you said, I don't, I don't like strategy. Oh, yeah, this is not rehearsing.
- [08:58]
Tom Kenney
That's a bit misleading. I do love strategy. I don't like when things get bogged down in strategy. I'm a firm believer that, like, strategy has a best before date and if you don't have enough time, it's not going to be very good. But if you have too much time, it just leads to people sort of overthinking and overanalyzing. And I don't like it when things spend like six months in Strategy. So I think that's what I meant by that. I do love.
- [09:22]
Fergus O'Carroll
I think you're probably right.
- [09:24]
Sean McDonald
So six months for the strategy anymore, it's insane.
- [09:28]
Fergus O'Carroll
So, Jay, Jay, Broken Heart Love Affair. You came out of cassette back in the day. Tell us about the agency today.
- [09:37]
Jay Carney
Yeah, sure. So we started day one of the pandemic lockdown in Ontario. So, like, literally the day that they're announcing lockdown, Carlos is in the back and myself and Bev and Denise and Todd were signing a shareholders agreement and going, what the hell are we doing? We're going to be dead before we launch. But it actually helped us. So the whole premise behind Broken Elderfair at the time is we're going to bring together the most senior talent that we can get to give them direct access to the clients, to give our access, our clients direct access to those senior people. Shortly after that, because we didn't have enough going on, we launched Lifelong Crush. A lot of people from Lifelong Crush here tonight as well. So a second sister agency to Broken Heart Love Affair. Like, literally, I think three months after we launched Broken Heart Love Affair, So we have two agencies in Toronto, fit slightly different modes and models and have slightly different business plans, but both are doing really well. We're thinking about 100 people.
- [10:32]
Fergus O'Carroll
So you guys have this killer mantra on your website, which I loved. You talk about bringing back the love of brands and in essence, I think it's like you feel that advertising is broken, but it can be fixed.
- [10:46]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I mean, like the way we looked at it was one. I think there's an over investment and this was kind of the whole business case for a broken heart love affair. There's an over investment in kind of more transactional advertising back in those days. And so we wanted to bring the love back to the people that were in the ad industry to inspire them to do the work they're doing, the production industry, because they're so important to what we do and how we do it and then to the consumers and the clients. Right. And so make them enjoy the process of working with agencies, but also consumers actually enjoying the work.
- [11:19]
Fergus O'Carroll
So I watched a couple of your films today and the, the RVing film where that guy jumps off the cliff and he meets himself, that is just a beautiful emotional moment in film. Yeah, that was goddamn amazing. I mean, it really was. I mean, you guys do amazing films. Yes. And it's. Do you believe in longer format or are they just. Are there's cut downs of some of these pieces. I mean, for example, the Royal Ontario Museum.
- [11:44]
Jay Carney
Yeah.
- [11:44]
Fergus O'Carroll
That film with the gorilla is just stunning.
- [11:47]
Jay Carney
Yeah, it's gorgeous. Yeah. I think, you know, core to our philosophy is that, you know, embedding an emotional memory in people is critical to activating on in the future and driving success from a business perspective. So understanding what emotion we need to affect and how we're going to affect it and actually doing it. I think long form storytelling is probably the best. Right. You know, there's a whole kind of belief that short term, short or short form video is the best way to reach people right now. But it's not necessarily true. You look at, you know, people are kind of ingesting video at a pretty vociferous rate right now. And you know, long form is the best way as long as you can produce something of value that people actually want to see. So we really focus on creating something of value that people want and helping our clients through creating things that people actually want.
- [12:36]
Fergus O'Carroll
When we look at the history of Canadian advertising and you look at planning specifically, what is it that like, what have been some of the. What's some of the history of that in Canada?
- [12:48]
Sean McDonald
I think actually even though there are many strategists, strategy and planning in Canada is still exceedingly immature, still exceedingly new. And there's a few reasons for that. Just structurally in the way that the market works when you're a neighboring country, the United States, and you're a tenth the size, we're a spillover market for a lot of big brands. And so therefore there are strategists working in agencies where the strategy is baked and you are working on the executional details of that campaign. So I think it's important when you look at strategy, you understand there's a few functions to it. There are people that are playing a sales function, there's people that are playing a comms function, there's people that are playing a creative strategy function. But I would say the least of people are actually developing original brand strategies, brand positionings and instigating original creativity. There are lots and lots of people who don't yet get to participate in the full spectrum of it because their agencies aren't asked to do that. And so there are many incredible strategists. In fact, I mean this country is producing high caliber work. Recognize our Effies and Ken and one show and all those performances have gone up every single year. But we do need to look at ourselves and say that we are calling ourselves strategists doesn't mean that we are doing the full job of what a strategist is. Not for the fault of anybody here, just that the mandate isn't always there.
- [14:05]
Tom Kenney
I think that that is a little bit liberating in a way too. The fact that we're not always beholden to do that, foundational strategy means that we can focus on coming up with killer ideas against specific briefs. Because a lot of that foundational strategy, and don't get me wrong, like I love doing that stuff, but a lot of that is that sort of protracted 6 to 12 month strategy that you can get really bogged down on versus just like how do we come up with like something that is going to capture the culture right now?
- [14:33]
Sean McDonald
I totally agree with you. But it's also true that a lot, a lot of agencies aren't even asked to come up with the idea they're executing within an idea that's out there. So I totally agree with you. But if you look at it, you've got big network agencies where you're a node to a bigger system and you're executing a derivative of something that's been established elsewhere.
- [14:51]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I feel like an anomaly because I think we, that's all we do is basically build platforms like nonstop. That's kind of a core business. But I agree with you, there's not a lot of those opportunities, particularly in Canada. But what I think is interesting about Canada is we produce a lot of really great strategists that kind of go elsewhere. So we export a lot of them. And the US looks to Canada for a lot of the great strategists. I know all the headhunters come up here and everybody's trying to figure out why, why Canada? What is it about Canada that produces some of the best strategists in Canada, but also in the US And I think it's a great question to kind.
- [15:23]
Sean McDonald
Of think about point of view on that actually. And it just supports what you said before. Actually. I think if you look at what makes Canadian advertisers good and strategists as well as creatives account people, producers, what have you, to have a great opportunity in Canada has always been something that you just can't take for granted. It won't necessarily happen. The next brief might not be good. We don't get a big budget. And so the amount of thinking you have to do to convince a client who might work in a global brand or you might have a limited budget, you can't stop. And we want to be on the global stage. Everybody here wants to be on the global stage and many of them are. But you can only achieve that here at that level. Like if you look at the budget and scope of opportunity versus the award output, it would blow your mind. What we do in this country, everybody here, and so that requires an entrepreneurialism that I think is almost unrivaled. And I noticed this as we grew into New York. Canadians do not take opportunities for granted. And I think that makes us exceedingly motivated and we pursue every opportunity and it drives that three legged stool that Heather was, was talking about.
- [16:25]
Heather Siegel
And I think this is it. Like to me, what makes Canadian strategists great is the scrappiness. Because like for the American listeners, reference, like what you're talking about, we can usually expect about an 80:20 budget ratio. When you get such a small budget, you have to be so smart. 80, 20 meaning like for, like if the US got 80% of the budget, Canada might get 20. So we have such a small window to make an impact that it really has to count. So there's rigor, there's scrappiness. And I think to your point, we find these little crevices where we can make impact and So I think it creates a great sense of ingenuity in strategies to navigate around it. Like, I've worked on US accounts with big budgets and it's quite amazing what you can do. And I think what we've tried to do as we established the New York office is export that scrappiness. Like even when I worked on the super bowl commercial for Bucking.com it's very easy to defer to. We're going to put a celebrity in. That celebrity is going to become the campaign for the moment. But we're like, no, no, like this is our entry to building a brand for the year. How is the brand the star of it? Maybe how does the celebrity support it? But what is that key message that puts the brand at the center? And we did that with the idea of booking is half the fun. And we created a platform for the entire year and we've used that same put the brand at the center, make sure it's selling the product in an entertaining way for the super bowl, but create a platform for the year that can get exported globally. And it's pushed booking.com to the number one app in the US for, for travel.
- [18:13]
Fergus O'Carroll
So it's interesting to me that each of you came from big agencies. Were you running away from something or were you running to something?
- [18:26]
Sean McDonald
Running away as fast as possible, strangle agencies and just smother brands until they're dead and gone. And so I worked at one of those agencies that they did. So I worked at Taxi that WPP bought and you know, my colleague Aaron Starkman made a provocative statement. You tell me one agency that got bought and then got better. And so I was working at an agency where Taxi is probably one of the most formidable brands to come out of this country, extended to New York, had an incredible proposition. Style, energy. So many people in this industry grew and respond from that opportunity there. They did incredible work.
- [18:59]
Fergus O'Carroll
Huge impact.
- [19:00]
Sean McDonald
Yeah, yeah. And so they did incredible work.
- [19:03]
Fergus O'Carroll
But it was in essence a comm strategy shop. Right? No, didn't think of itself that way.
- [19:09]
Sean McDonald
No, sorry. Taxi.
- [19:10]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah.
- [19:11]
Sean McDonald
No, Taxi was a full on creative agency. Right. And they were known for work on, on many, most predominantly Viagra. Some incredible brands, a lot of Canadian brands, but they were winning a can. They were the first Canadian, I think, to really go out there. This is where Zach is from and you know, Tom and I have worked. But I think what really frustrated me and what frustrates me now with the Omnicom Group, you know, and like what happened to BBDO and like what is going On. And so you worked at a place essentially that just treats human capital disposably. And I don't blame the people that work there. But these aren't agencies that are intended to thrive and have a point of view. They're meant to extract revenue from companies and distribute to shareholders, and that's the extent of their purpose. People do incredible creative work there. But I think the agencies on this panel right now all have a disposition to attempt something. Heather expressed a point of view that Zulu has. Tom expressed one that Courage has. So did Jay. That broken heart love affair has. And Rethink has one, too. We believe one word changes everything, both the relationships at the industry and the work. And I think if you ask those big networks what their strategy is for their people and for their work, they will tell you to win the next pitch, and that's it.
- [20:23]
Jay Carney
I kind of agree. I think the big thing I've observed is. And one of the frustrations of working both at Omnicom and with Cassette was. And Cassette's still technically independent, but it's a pretty big agency, is to grow, particularly in Canada. I think you have to start to lose your POV and start to just do more and say yes to more things and start to pitch more things that you don't typically do. And we were a party to that quite a bit. And what I love about some of the independents that are doing really well in this country, especially the people on stage, is that everybody has a very firm POV and we may not 100% agree with each other in terms of what that POV. It doesn't really matter. I think the one thing I realized about some of the big holding company agencies is that they spend so much time trying to kind of grow that they kind of lose their POV and their position in the market and they don't have a specific kind of vision, really. And what I love about everybody on stage is that there's a vision. Right. Like, I see Rethink's work. I know it's Rethink. I see Courage. I know it's Courage. I see Zulu. I see. I know it's Zulu. And we've heard the same thing about our work, right? So I think there's an opportunity for some of the holding companies to get back to that for their people and be less interested in growing, you know, top line or bottom line, but get back to growing vision.
- [21:42]
Fergus O'Carroll
Go ahead.
- [21:42]
Tom Kenney
Yeah, I was going to say, like, I think for me, I was both running away from something and running to something. The thing I was running away from was. I discovered that despite being very senior within, you know, Ogilvy Canada on the, on the leadership team, I still had very little agency when it came to big decisions. And that could be staffing decisions that could be who we're pitching, all kinds of decisions that you would think at that level you would get to share a point of view on. And I found that was not always the case and that was very frustrating. The thing that I was running towards was talent. Like when I saw Joel and Duvall were starting their own agency, I knew them by the reputation and I knew that they would be aspiring to do great work. And I think that's what we're seeing across the country is a lot of talent is gravitating towards these independent agencies and you know, where the top talent go, the sort of intermediate and junior talent want to go as well. And I think that's why we're seeing so much great work coming out of these shops.
- [22:40]
Sean McDonald
Totally agree. It's funny, I heard a line a while ago because, you know, what I was running towards was very similar to what you were saying, Tom, But I heard the line like, the unfortunate reality for a lot of CSOs and strategists is that they have a lot of influence but no power. And so you can be on a management team, but formally, like a former creative or a former account person who's the CEO of the agency is going to say, cool, thanks for your feedback. I'm going to go make a choice. And it's an unfortunate truth. And when I came to rethink, what I was so happy about was that every office and the entire agency at large is run with the three legged stool that Heather referred to. So it's creative strategy and accounts equally though. Equal power, equal authority, equal everything. And that matters because in the specific example of Julian and the other heads of strategy across rethink is it is in the culture of the agency that is unacceptable to not work with each other. And that isn't just because I say so, because I can be a boss and make that true. It's because Mike Dubrick and our other colleagues across the agency believe in it and they bring it in and they foster it and the account team is part of it just because they see from the very top we have that respect and courtesy. And I think that can only happen in an independent structure. We don't have a CEO, we don't have one primary leader or primary executive. And so I think that opportunity is something I ran towards. Where you know, as a cso, I could have been relegated just to being a strategist with the most senior title. But I'd like to run a business and create a culture and establish a group where we can foster an incredible team.
- [24:11]
Fergus O'Carroll
We'll be right back. We're thrilled to be supported by the Fes. For over 55 years, Effie has been the global authority on marketing effectiveness. They lead the way with the largest, most prestigious marketing effectiveness award awards across 125 markets worldwide. And their coveted EFFIE Index ranks the most effective brands, marketers and agencies globally. But EFFIE is more than awards. They're dedicated to helping all marketers, from seasoned CMOs to those just getting started, understand what makes marketing effective by equipping them with insights, tools and inspiration they need to succeed. Learn more@effie.org that's E F F want Always on Brand Metrics that Deliver Value to Stakeholders this episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question. Is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterpr enterprise level brand tracking without the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting, using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Check it out@gotracksuit.com that's gotracksuit. Now back to the show. One of the things we learned when we were in London, Martin Beverly brought this up and he said that the reason that London is considered to be the home of planning was simply the fact that planners were on the ex. They were part of the founding principles of the great many of the great agencies. Yeah. So Tom, is that the way it is with these great strong indies like you guys, that planning has a seat at the table? So it is within the DNA and the flow of the culture that planning has a significant seat?
- [26:32]
Tom Kenney
Yeah, I mean, I think that's absolutely the case at Courage and it's probably the case across, you know, the folks on this panel. And I think one of the reasons why is when I look at the work that each of these four agencies are doing, a lot of the work is trying to actively be in conversation with culture. And I think that's a big part of the role that a strategist can play within an agency, and it makes the strategist become a very valuable player in creating that work. Like, when I think back to when I started in the industry, the planner typically had a very academic approach to how they came at the work. And for me, I certainly, and I've talked to Sean about this as well, I had a very real imposter syndrome because I felt like. Like that's not quite how I approach the work, with these sort of long, protracted briefs that almost feel like it's about showing off how much research you did versus actually helping come to some conclusion. It was more about the research and behavioral science than it was about understanding people and culture. And I think, you know, when I think of these four agencies, the work we try to do is very much in conversation with culture, which is why I think strategy is such an integral part of our agencies and the work that we do.
- [27:44]
Sean McDonald
It's funny, I was talking to the team about this topic earlier this afternoon and we were just talking about how Rethink doesn't have time sheets and we build clients on an output base. So basically, strategy is a product. And to Tom's point, we don't have to sit there and validate the value of the strategy through heft and time spent, because we're not charging you for time. And I think if you charge by the hour, you're essentially selling your time.
- [28:11]
Fergus O'Carroll
How are you charging if not by.
- [28:13]
Sean McDonald
Just for the output? So there's a. Just a set price for the output for the project, be it a campaign, whatever.
- [28:18]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah, nice.
- [28:19]
Sean McDonald
And frankly, you have to ask the account team, because I'm not entirely sure, but that's what I hear them saying all the time. And so. But if you think about it fundamentally, if it's about time, well, then you're inclined to heft. Look how much time I spent. Look at all the homework I did. Who cares? And I tell the team like that, what happens when people start when they come from somewhere else, be it they show Pascal or Julian or Elise in Vancouver, they'll show their work and I'll say, it's so great that you did all this work. What's the fucking strategy? And what are we doing? And hide all that and bring it up when it matters. Just tell them what to do and that's worth money.
- [28:55]
Fergus O'Carroll
So as part of. Go ahead, Heather.
- [28:56]
Heather Siegel
Oh, no, I was just going to say to us, when we think about strategy, at Zulu, at least, you know, we have two CSOs, because it's so important for us to make sure that we are leading the business conversations that unlock opportunity. And I think that's the other partnership. Like we talk about cultural capital and how we connect with humans. But I think part of the interesting thing also comes when you can get quite upstream in the conversations to unlock the right problems to solve. And so I think often, especially in Canada, to what you're talking about, Sean, like we, we have the pleasure, I think, like you, Jay, where we have an unfair share of big brand transformations, big positioning resets and all of that, which makes me excited. But it's also being able to talk to senior clients early on about what's actually keeping them up at night and trying to define the briefs that we're going to solve rather than receive the briefs. And I think when you have really strong strategic talent at the table, that's both business strategy and creative strategy together you can really get the juicy problems to solve to get that work that connects with humans to the line. But it takes an investment in strategy to make that happen.
- [30:08]
Sean McDonald
It's interesting because business strategy is not a focus of rethink. It's important we understand your business, we have a point of view on your business, but it also helps with clarity. In our team, we are very focused on creative strategy and the integrity and long term thinking around your brand. And I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just a point of view of focus where the team rallies around that as a strength. And I think I'm saying this because it's interesting to consider because we have made the choice that we have very smart people. The account team knows the business really well. But it's another example of something that we sort of choose not to do. Like our team is very, very focused and our job is to, you know, help be the intermediary between the consumer and the brand and to make sure that what you do matters at all and that somebody will remember it.
- [30:54]
Fergus O'Carroll
So do you guys compete against each other for business or are you competing more against. I mean, you've got to come head to head, I'm sure, all the time, I think.
- [31:04]
Jay Carney
So it's pretty much the four agencies on stage. We see each other like in every pitch.
- [31:09]
Tom Kenney
I feel like at Courage we're more up against Broken Heart and, and Zulu more frequently. Just because I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, you guys have more bases covered. So like, where is where?
- [31:18]
Sean McDonald
Yeah, we're not pitching that much in Toronto.
- [31:20]
Fergus O'Carroll
Why are you not pitching in Toronto or in Canada?
- [31:23]
Sean McDonald
The majority of our Growth is organic. And oftentimes we're getting phone calls to work with people. But also the only industry that we're not in is automotive. And hilariously, it's because Subaru told us that we can't do breakthrough work, which I will never stop laughing about for the rest of my life. But so, yeah, outside of that, it's kind of like it's a, it's a complex situation of conflicts. But at the same time, like, Rethink's primary motivation isn't growth. We just want to do good work. Like people have good jobs. You know, we're making money, we're doing good work. Like it's okay if we don't grow.
- [31:59]
Fergus O'Carroll
But you're not deliberately saying we're going to leave the pie in Canada for the others and we're going to focus outside of.
- [32:05]
Sean McDonald
No, we have a lot of pie. Like, you know, like, yeah, you have.
- [32:07]
Jay Carney
A lot of water.
- [32:08]
Sean McDonald
We have a lot of pie.
- [32:09]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yes. Yeah, good point.
- [32:11]
Sean McDonald
But, but I say that, I'm just saying that like our average client relationship is eight years. We have our first client of, of 25 years in a W. So I'm not saying that dismissively, I just mean like we have long term relationships and a lot of them are, for example, in cpg where they create a lot of organic growth. So you start with one brand. I mean, Kraft Heinz started with peanut butter and now we have dozens. And so it's just meant that like our growth opportunity is to leverage the momentum of Canada. You know, in the rest of the.
- [32:39]
Heather Siegel
World, when we are in pitches, like sometimes there's a mix of network and indie as clients are trying to assess what change they're seeking. And so it is interesting, what I've experienced in these discussions with potential clients is, is yearning for the bravery I think that sits in agencies that are here today, which is like this idea of, you talked about running away from something or running towards something. I think we're all running for something. And this idea of making an impact in a way that matters, in a way that gets noticed, and there are so many headwinds that our clients are facing right now that it's harder and harder every year between the business landscape, the media landscape, the budget to make an impact that I think that the purpose of indie agencies is quite magnetic to import that bravery and that difference that we're seeing, that appetite for more, all indie pitches or that mix to assess, like, can I join this group of people and start to make an impact on my businesses in a different way?
- [33:51]
Tom Kenney
Well, I think so. I was going to say, I think that the point Sean made a moment ago about, like, the specificity of our offering is another sort of big differentiator between us and the networks. Like, I remember when I was at Ogilvy, like, the second we would get a client in the door, all of a sudden we'd be like, hey, and what about consulting and what about media and what about technology and what about data and what about all the other things? Versus we are much more focused in the problems that we're coming in to solve creatively. And I think that is why we often end up on the same list. Because if you're looking for that, then you're probably wanting to talk to, you know, the four agencies on the panel right now.
- [34:28]
Jay Carney
When I put cybersecurity on a pitch slide.
- [34:31]
Tom Kenney
What's that?
- [34:31]
Jay Carney
When I put cyber security on a pitch slide, as one of the services we provide, I was like, I'm done with this. I can't do this.
- [34:38]
Sean McDonald
I mean, it's fun. Funny though, if you think about it. I mean, there's no two ways about it. The independent agencies of Canada are doing the best work, and it's not even close. And that's just not just my opinion. You can look at it from an award standpoint and like, just people's opinions, like, that's just how that is. And so then when you look at when a brand's looking at a pitch and when you throw in a mix of indies and networks, if you're looking at an indie, you're looking at a, you know, an agency with purpose, that has ambitions not just for your brand, but for itself, which should be additive. Right? And I think when they look at the networks, you're going to get a more rational offering. You're going to get what Tom just talked about. You're going to get a whole mix of things and they're going to say words like scale and integration and a bunch of, like, rational sales words, and they're going to sell you on that because they want to find as much revenue as they possibly can, because that's the goal. And I think independents can only do well and continue if they do good work. We don't have global networks just putting meat on our plate. We have to do it ourselves. And so I think that allows for the focus we want to be excellent. We have a point of view that we want to deliver on. And I think when a client's looking at and comparing it, I mean, a network's gonna drop price, like in a Heartbeat. Right. And so they're gonna go down that, you know, it's gonna be an hourly rate that sounds cheap. And it's just because they're driving the overall revenue of the business. And so I think what you also get is you get a different price item on the menu that you can put some pressure on the other agency. So, yeah, you get that mix.
- [35:58]
Heather Siegel
Yeah.
- [35:58]
Fergus O'Carroll
So, Tom, let's look at. Let's flip the coin. So one of the things I've noticed is that senior marketing people, client side, they're getting younger and they have different expectations than the people they have replaced. And that's creating a hunger amongst major brands for a different kind of a solution. So the question is, what are the common characteristics among clients who. Who come to Indy's like you?
- [36:29]
Tom Kenney
I mean, I think they're looking for a couple different things, but one of the things that feels as though it's been quite consistent in my experience, is the ability to kind of punch above your weight. I mean, as we've talked about quite a bit on the panel already, you know, here in Canada, we work with lots of big clients, but the reality is that we typically have smaller budgets. So they're looking for ideas that can make that same splash that their sort of neighbors to the south are making, but without comparable budget. So, I mean, that's certainly one of the things they're looking for. I think another thing that they're looking for that they're not getting with the networks is continuity of partnership. I think they're looking to sit across the table from somebody that's still going to be there five years from now and who's committed to, you know, their success and who's going to be a true collaborator versus just somebody who's doing a job. And, you know, they might not be there next week and their whole agency might not be there next week. So, I mean, those for me are two of the consistent themes that I've seen in terms of big brands looking to indies over the network shops.
- [37:35]
Fergus O'Carroll
What do you think, Jay?
- [37:36]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I think so. And I think too, like what we've proven, all the agencies on stage is that we're not going anywhere and we just keep on growing in power. And I think they're attracted to that. I mean, Sean talked about it, right? The organic growth that rethinks significant. There's a reason, there's a trust there. And so I think that inherent trust and the kind of the continual cycle of all these agencies doing incredible work and then also winning all awards and winning new Business just kind of creates this level of trust and so it's just easy to pick the indies. And there's always almost like this sense that there's something happening at these shops. I don't know what it is. And I've heard this before in pitches where it's like, I don't know why we're picking all indies, but we're picking all indies because you guys seem to know what you're doing. And so there's like an inherent trust. And I think a lot of marketers are faced with the fact that they're under resourced and they just need to know that they can rely. Kind of what Tom was saying before is, you know, rely on the fact that you're going to be there with me, you're not going anywhere and you're going to provide me the best guidance and you're going to get me the best kind of return to my dollar.
- [38:34]
Fergus O'Carroll
And you're going to give me the best ideas, right? I mean, shit, we're in the idea business. Heather. It's like I kind of feel that a lot of these big brands are looking around and seeing what is arguably and it's not just indies that are doing the best work, but damn, a lot of indies are doing a lot of great work. So you can't exclude them, even if they might not seem like they have the same scale, the footprint shit, they've got the people with the great ideas. And why don't I have that?
- [39:04]
Heather Siegel
Well, and I think this is true. It's like there's a fallacy that scale gives you success, right? And I think what scale and network gives you is safety. And I think there's danger. Yeah, exactly. I think there's danger in that. Because what, you know, we know this as strategists, right? Like, you know, you try to target everyone, you hit no 1, you try to build a brand that checks all of the boxes in pre testing and post testing, all that, and it ends up quite neutral. And I think what indie agencies have is experience and I think that that is really what you're buying when you're buying an indie agency. You're buying like, you know, people here that have been working 20 years in a number of places across a number of categories to bring a sense of expertise to make brave choices. And I think I can make an assumption that everyone here at the table is not shy at having the tough conversations with clients about when they're making the safe choice, when they're going with convention, when everything will be fine and acceptable, which doesn't take you anywhere today because of the media landscape, because of consumer attention spans, you know, et cetera, et cetera. All the cliches like you really do need to take bigger calculated swings. And agencies like ours aren't afraid to have the tough conversations that are saying, you're making a safe choice.
- [40:29]
Fergus O'Carroll
We'll be right back. I'm delighted to have WARC as the sponsor of this series. WARC is the authority in marketing effectiveness. With warc, you gain the confidence to challenge the status quo, prove your business case, and fuel the innovation needed to take your marketing effectiveness to the next level. For nearly 40 years, Warc has helped customers around the world make more confident marketing decisions by giving them access to proprietary research, an extensive library of case studies and best practices, and robust data and inspiration. Who do the world's leading brands, agencies and media owners turn to when they want to make sure their plans are going to work? The answer is work. You can learn more@warc.com that is w a r c.com now back to the show.
- [41:22]
Sean McDonald
You've all made me realize something else that I think doing great work is not the simple output of just a brilliant few people. A brilliant few people completely help. But if you don't have a relationship with a client that is respectful, mutually challenging, endeavoring in a similar direction if you can't get them to I say a comfortable yes, and I don't mean an arduous yes. I don't mean like a just do it, go, we got to do it now. Not that like we have a strategy that allows us to say yes more easily, that we have a relationship where I don't feel like I'm going to get taken advantage of because you just want to get a trophy when you have that relationship, it unlocks so much other work. And I think one of the things that I, you know, makes me so happy is that people are surprised when they come to rethink, both when they work here and when clients meet us, that I'm the most brash person at rethink. Everybody else is like pretty chill and polite and lovely. And it will surprise you because they are absolute killers, though, for the work. All of them are insatiably after it. And it's counterintuitive because we actually won a pitch recently and the client said to us afterwards, they came in there intimidated and after they met the team, they came out and they said, wow, that was a really personal, engaged experience. I'm bringing this up on the tails of what Heather just said because if you want to do great work, it is irrational to a business that charges on time because you can't predict how long it's going to take. And you have to give an irrational amount of fucks to make the good work within the constraints, time and budgets that we have here. And only an independent would be so irrational because they're driven by their vision, their care, their sense of purpose. To do that, a network will say, oh my God, like we're like 15 hours over budget and just sell the mid one and just, you know, call them and, you know, whatever. And I just think it's irrational. And there's an irrationality to independence that propels us. It's not just about getting the job done or charging for time. There's pride, confidence, momentum, all those things.
- [43:21]
Tom Kenney
Well, and to build on that point, Sean, like one of the nicest things about working at Courage, which is unlike anywhere else I've worked. I was previously only a network agency agencies, is that every single client that I work with chose to work with us, which is very unique. Everywhere else I worked, it was typically some form of global alignment. And the clients were like, oh, I guess these folks are the folks that have to work with. So the fact that.
- [43:48]
Fergus O'Carroll
And they were rotating through their roles.
- [43:50]
Tom Kenney
Every six months, like, oh, I guess I'm stuck with this guy versus everyone I work with now. Yes, they're stuck with me, but they chose to be stuck with me, which is actually quite nice. And it makes us feel more like true partners in trying to do something together.
- [44:05]
Fergus O'Carroll
So the big question and what seems to be, unfortunately the reality is that all of you are going to get bad sometime at some point you're going to be strong, but unfortunately that's. That's what happens. You get so big that you become bad.
- [44:25]
Sean McDonald
I don't agree with you, you know, not even a little bit.
- [44:27]
Fergus O'Carroll
No, no.
- [44:28]
Tom Kenney
Well, what the.
- [44:29]
Sean McDonald
With what?
- [44:29]
Fergus O'Carroll
I mean, but there's. I. I know, but. Well, there's Widen.
- [44:34]
Jay Carney
Is that what you said?
- [44:34]
Sean McDonald
No, I just said why? Like why?
- [44:36]
Fergus O'Carroll
Why? Well, why everything. You, you become an organization that needs to secure its base and continue to grow. So the business objective.
- [44:45]
Sean McDonald
I'm gonna be a real pain in the ass on this one.
- [44:46]
Fergus O'Carroll
Go ahead.
- [44:47]
Sean McDonald
I don't have to grow.
- [44:50]
Fergus O'Carroll
Tell me about that.
- [44:51]
Tom Kenney
Are you talking about Sean or Rethink right now?
- [44:55]
Sean McDonald
No, but like, if you're talking about Rethink, I'm just. I want to challenge the proposition. Listen, Rethink operates more like a family business than anything else. It's very existence is the Most important thing. Listen, I. I care so deeply and all the partners at Rethink care so deeply about the jobs that we offer people. It's something that I take exceedingly personally and I feel a huge amount of responsibility for. So as I say this, please don't consider this flippant with people's careers, but we've been growing steadily and improving steadily for 25 years. And the reason that I believe, and I wanted to challenge the proposition of your question is that it will only be that when we get distracted, it will only be that if we stop focusing on the right things, if we say yes to a client that's going to treat us like shit, our great talent is going to leave because their life is going to suck. If we do good work and we don't challenge each other on making it better, our work is going to suck and people are going to go elsewhere because somebody else is doing better work. But if we can stay focused and challenge ourselves and really face where we succeed and where we fail, which by the way, we spend a ton of time on, if we don't get distracted, we're never going to sell. If we stay focused and we don't lose our focus on that. There is no reason to believe what you just said. I believe that we can always get better and so long as we stay focused. And that is why we have spent so much time being very clear about how to make those choices. Who do you say no to how we work? Because we are fucking terrified of fucking it up.
- [46:20]
Fergus O'Carroll
Why? Why do you need to grow?
- [46:22]
Sean McDonald
I don't think we do. I like, you know, like, it's, it's nice. I'd like to grow in New York in the States, but like, you know, like, I don't know, we've got 400 people. Like, it's just, we don't need to, like, where, you know, like, it'd be nice to if, if we find a good client. But, you know, for example, like, I like, we're not out there, like, trying to work in automotive right now because it's an open category. We're going to wait till we find somebody with similar inclinations, similar ambitions who we are the right partner for and they are the right partner for us. And if we're, if we're steadfast and we're committed and we're patient, it will work out. If we're impatient, we'll fuck it up.
- [46:56]
Jay Carney
Does that mean the next organic opportunity that comes to your is going to hand it, Tom, or. Yeah, one of us just like, it's totally cool. Yeah, no, I don't know if I buy 100%. I love the people thing. I don't know that I buy that.
- [47:08]
Sean McDonald
Company only if it's a bad one.
- [47:09]
Heather Siegel
But I think this goes back to the conversation we had at the start about what created these agencies and being found on purpose. Like, we work with all of our clients. Like, you've got to keep true to your own strategy, and you've got to call each other out as leaders when that's failing. Like, I look at something like Zulu, like, one. One of our big things is challenging industry conventions. And we famously said in Canada, we're not doing spec work, and we will not compromise that because it takes people away from our active client partnerships to do work. You can imagine the number of times where a client said, okay, but for us, and we're like, no, it doesn't start the partnership off right.
- [47:50]
Fergus O'Carroll
I think it's fantastic. Forget about pitching.
- [47:53]
Heather Siegel
There's so many times where you could have said no in order to get that next pitch. And so I think, to Sean's point, it's like, we've got to hold true to the integrity of the agency. If we do hold true to the integrity of the agency, we will still keep succeeding. And I think that snowball effect that we just talked about, like, you're going to get your unfair share of talent, that's going to attract more, that's going to get more great work, and it's going to keep going. And as a leadership team, we just need to stay accountable to what our agency ethos is. And if we do that, there's no reason why we should decline.
- [48:23]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I agree with that. I think, like, you look at everybody on stage and it's like the one I said earlier. It's like, you know, I was joking with you a bit, Sean, but it's. There's an amazing kind of, like, steadfast focus on what we do and how we do it. Whether it's rethink or Zulu and Mike and Zach and what they've done in the past and then courage. I think everybody's sticking to their guns. And when we launched llc, we did it because we were being asked to do things we didn't want to do as a part of our business plan. And so we said, we start turning down that money because business growth is business growth. You want to grow businesses. It's how you keep people employed. It's how you kind of grow your power. That's why I was kind of joking about that. But, you know, launching LLC was a critical move because we wanted to make sure we didn't dilute what BHLE was there to do. But we also knew that clients needed something else from us. And so we kind of grew this other vision and allowed those leaders to take over and to grow that vision. So I think there's multiple ways to kind of approach it. You can grow big or you can grow in multitude. And I think, again, the whole, sorry, I don't know the name of the network, but the NFA Mischief Courage thing is an example of that as well.
- [49:30]
Sean McDonald
It's an interesting thought because, I mean, just to double down on what I was saying, I mean, we fired like, a $7 million client not that long ago just because it was, like, not fun and making people upset. And so, you know, that's a. That's a real choice. Like, that's a. That's a put your money where your mouth is choice. And I. And I. And I'm just saying that because there are different models, like, if you want to grow different businesses, if you want to have those networks, but just, like, for rethink, we are so pure in our intention that just growth is not the motivator. It's a byproduct of good relationships.
- [50:02]
Fergus O'Carroll
So we're going to go to questions from the audience, but I wanted to ask real quickly what everybody thinks of their question. What are you admiring outside of your own shops in terms of other campaigns or agencies? Who do you hold? Who do each of you guys hold in high esteem?
- [50:21]
Tom Kenney
Like in Canada or around the world?
- [50:23]
Fergus O'Carroll
No, anywhere where you think, shit, I love what they do, or I would love to be like, they are.
- [50:31]
Sean McDonald
I mean, Uncommon blows my fucking mind. I am so envious of them. The most evident example would be the work that they did for British Airways. The devout strategist in me loves the play with semiotics, but I am lucky enough to work with an incredible amount of creatives. But Rethink, at its most senior, is led by predominantly writers. And so when I look at Uncommon, it's a little more art director driven. And I see an agency that sort of plays in the notion of. One of my favorite intersections in advertising is design and strategy. And it's like, for me, the most satisfying output of our work is seeing that come together. And I think Uncommon, they just make me so jealous and so impressed time and again.
- [51:18]
Fergus O'Carroll
Jay, what do you think?
- [51:19]
Jay Carney
I'm a big fan of Mother. I think Mother has done a great job, not just in the ad industry, but also Mother Industries kind of expanding beyond and starting to develop IP and products and market it and put it there. Kind of their money where their mouth is, but they're also like a significant scale for an independent shop, which I kind of love. So to Sean's point, they just haven't lost their DNA. They've grown, they've expanded, they've kind of gone into new businesses and they've held true to who they are.
- [51:47]
Fergus O'Carroll
So, Tom, what's your answer to that question?
- [51:50]
Tom Kenney
Sure, yeah. I mean, it's a bit of an incestuous response, I know, but I do really love the work that our sister agency Mischief's doing and it's interesting. I kind of feel like they've taken the scrappiness of what we do here in Canada and just done it on a much larger scale. Not. Not that we don't do it on a larger scale. We do, but they're kind of. They're doing it at the super bowl, which I think is. Is very cool. They've done a lot of work that I think is really great.
- [52:12]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah, I agree.
- [52:13]
Sean McDonald
Nobody said publicist. That's weird.
- [52:18]
Fergus O'Carroll
So there's a big game apparently on in 15 minutes, so we're not going to go over told it was a big hockey game. Hey, everyone, my name is Azim.
- [52:27]
Jay Carney
It's been such a great discussion, so.
- [52:29]
Fergus O'Carroll
Thank you so much. I have a quick question. What do you feel like is the biggest challenge when you're trying to align a client on a new and a big strategic approach?
- [52:40]
Sean McDonald
If you go in with a huge amount of data and a million slides in your deck, it seems confident, but to me it looks wildly insecure. And so I think you have to go in and articulate clearly the choices you're asking the client to make and justify why you're asking to make them. And don't drown them in stuff because it feels scary and like tough, because then you're making the choice harder. It's just like advertising. You get a million messages, how do I make one choice? And so just go in there and saying, we're going to make sequentially these choices. There are these reasons and these implications, and it's as simple as that.
- [53:10]
Heather Siegel
I think the other thing this is, as you both talk about this, is relationship. And so it's really important to remember that this partnership is that we are both going to succeed together. And I think we used to be in this world where there was like, okay, agency, go away and then you come back in a big ta da and aren't we all brilliant and Buy us and it's like no, no, no. Work together from the start. The more I think that we can think about this as a co creation exercise, the more successful we can be with again like shared goals and objectives to succeed.
- [53:40]
Fergus O'Carroll
Another question over here on the left.
- [53:44]
Jay Carney
Hello panel. I love your thoughts and comments and all that.
- [53:50]
Sean McDonald
I really enjoyed this panel. Okay, so my question to you is kind of this tension around being an independent but being dependent on clients.
- [53:58]
Jay Carney
So you are independent of ownership.
- [54:01]
Fergus O'Carroll
Cool.
- [54:01]
Sean McDonald
And I love Tom's answer about like independence meaning agency to make your own decisions.
- [54:06]
Jay Carney
But there isn't murky waters.
- [54:08]
Sean McDonald
Being dependent, having the sword of Damocles hanging above your head in terms of like clients can take. We don't assign our own work. Us work is assigned to us. We are dependent on others, but we're independent. Would love to hear your guys thoughts on nerve and navigating those murky ones. You don't have to work with anybody.
- [54:24]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah, exactly.
- [54:26]
Sean McDonald
I'm not dependent on clients.
- [54:28]
Heather Siegel
I think again it's relationship like this is the luxury of being independent is you don't have to take the pitch, you don't have to keep the client relationship. And again at Zulu too, we have retired relationships when they're not mutually productive because we don't share the same goal. So success comes when you share a goal and so it doesn't feel like dependency, it feels like partnership.
- [54:51]
Jay Carney
Yeah, we were same thing Bhle we launched I think three months after launching, we fired one of our biggest clients with we have no money, like nobody's backing us. We did it on our own. We grew organically through time and there was a client wasn't treating our people well and we said it's not worth it. Right. And you can't make that decision at a holding company, unfortunately. And I'm not bashing holding companies, but you have to produce. And I think the other side is I think everybody on stage would agree. And I love Carlos, my partner in the back always uses word. But we stay home hungry. Like none of us. Like you don't feel easy having your own thing. You never feel comfortable. So you're always looking, you're always fighting, you're always kind of looking for the right connection, so to speak. And I think that's the big thing is like we're always out there. So there's always opportunity and we don't need to grow. To Sean's point.
- [55:39]
Sean McDonald
Well, just like why would you. You don't like dependence in any relationship is a lack of equity. Right. And it's not a healthy dynamic generally. Point. So if I'm dependent on a client, I'm going to be fearful then now my advice and my suggestions and the entire relationship is compromised. So I'd suggest I don't want to be dependent on the client. I want to be like in love with a client. I want it to be a great relationship. But the second I'm dependent, there's something toxic happening and it just needs to be diagnosed. And I think what's important. Your question though is that you have to actually tend to that moment. Then you have to talk about that sensation of we feel this lack of equity. We don't feel respected or we don't feel that we can influence you. It's feeling transactional. You're treating us like a vendor, not like a partner. But if you just take it, that means your motivation is the money and you don't give a shit about the relationship. And so I think, not to be flippant, but like, you don't have to be in a relationship like that. You can try and change it and it will lead to better work and better outcomes because you have integrity.
- [56:34]
Fergus O'Carroll
So we have another question back here in the. Back here by the elevators.
- [56:38]
Tom Kenney
What's up guys? First time, long time. I'm. I think one of the things that we see every few years is some big trend take over the industry and everyone rushes to adapt it, adapt to it or, you know, you see this.
- [56:53]
Sean McDonald
Often in just like the creative work.
- [56:54]
Tom Kenney
That comes out every year. I'm just curious what you guys think the next trends should be. Not what they're going to be, but what. What the industry is missing. Why, like what type of thing should come out and should people start focusing on that? They're not. And I care less about if it's an indie or if it's a bigger agency. Thought just something that's missing in the industry and where we should be going.
- [57:16]
Sean McDonald
I shouldn't do this, but I have to respond to Julian, my partner in crime here. I'm not going to say the thing that I think the world would want me to say. I think the best trend that the industry could do is make good jobs for people. Go out there and create jobs that have purpose, that make people get excited to do their work, where they can meet people, have a good time, feel valued, contributive, get excited by what they do, tell their friends about what it is. I think we talk about all the technology that makes good ads and everything else, but go out there and tend to people and create an Environment that makes for good work, that makes for prideful people that people that feel engaged. And it isn't just a job. Now, listen, it is a job, like we've got a life and everything else. But the trend I'd like to see is more people creating more jobs that people really like.
- [57:57]
Tom Kenney
I'd love to see us as an industry start recognizing more work that lots of people have seen. I think we've gotten into a bad habit of. And you know, I'm guilty of this for sure over the course of my career, but we've gotten to a bad habit of recognizing work that does super well on LinkedIn. But, you know, my, my wife or my parents definitely haven't seen or heard of. And I think I love it when, when I do something big that lots of people see. And I think we should do a better job of recognizing that type of work.
- [58:28]
Heather Siegel
Maybe mine's going to be cliche, but I think it's humanity. I think all of this obsession and the world is changing, right? Technology, data, all of this. But we confuse data and information for insight. And our job is human connection, our business is human connection. And so we can use all of these as tools and shortcuts, but by no means is that the product that is an assist. And I think the more we center ourselves on people and humanity, maybe this is just a lesson for the world, the better we'll be as an industry.
- [59:05]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I think that for me, it's like, I think we've spent a lot of time being responsive to culture. I think we have to start to realize the power we have in creating culture and in that power, the responsibility in terms of, of the stories we tell, who they're coming from, who's kind of featured in it, but also what the messages are and what we're trying to accomplish with it. Because I think a lot of us are just kind of creating fast food without thinking about the implications of what that fast food will do over time.
- [59:33]
Fergus O'Carroll
And another question here.
- [59:36]
Heather Siegel
Hi, thank you so much for great discussion. And you just have produced the work I personally admire. And I just wonder how do you manage to always stay true to the emotion, emotionality of the work? And not to rationalize that.
- [59:56]
Sean McDonald
I mean, in our, in our case, it's our job as an agency to help you express who you are as a brand and as a product, but in a way that will stay in somebody's memory so as they're predisposed to choose you. Right. And if I don't connect with you emotionally, whichever way that is which doesn't mean sentimentality. It can be humor. It can be I can agitate you. It can be whatever. I haven't done my job. Now, that's not everybody's point of view. Not everybody believes that some people just want to convey information and just put it out there. But I think if you look at the work that we do, we're looking to challenge a convention to stand out in the way that I think Heather's referred to a few times. So at the core of we're doing, we try to look at what's going to make us matter to somebody, what's going to get attention. The emotional range is huge. It might not be big emotions, but it has to feel like something. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter.
- [60:46]
Fergus O'Carroll
Yeah. Another question over here on the left. Hey, guys. So we heard a lot about how.
- [60:55]
Sean McDonald
Budgets are getting smaller, clients are getting.
- [60:58]
Heather Siegel
More difficult to work with, and that's.
- [61:00]
Sean McDonald
Leading to a drain in talent away.
- [61:02]
Heather Siegel
From advertising and into other creative industries.
- [61:06]
Sean McDonald
Do you have a point of view.
- [61:08]
Heather Siegel
On how we stop that from happening.
- [61:10]
Sean McDonald
In advertising and make it sexy again?
- [61:13]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I don't know. I have a kind of maybe a contrarian thought to this. Maybe it's okay that it's getting smaller. Maybe it got too big for a while. And I think that what remains will be people that care about being there and build kind of a build that produces great work. So I would say the people that stick around and push forward and fight through that pain, probably the ones that should be here and will create a really healthy industry for us. And maybe it's okay that it's not that big.
- [61:42]
Heather Siegel
I think, though all of us probably don't consider it, I'll say, quote, unquote, advertising. I think we look at a toolbox for communication. And so if we're beholden to video, as is the only way at it, then of course we're going to drain. Right. We're here in service to an idea that connects, an idea that can push someone forward to create behavior change. Where that happens, that's for our creativity to solve. And so we have to be agnostic about how it lives, or we will not just lose the client, but lose the connection to consumer.
- [62:15]
Sean McDonald
We were asked a question earlier about that predisposition or the. The sense of what it felt different about an independent being in a network. The second that I joined Rethink, which was my first experience in independent, I went from being a strategist to an entrepreneur. I wasn't just a strategist. I was running a business and that's why I said before, I think if you're going to keep people in the industry, create a good job, like, understand that people want to come to a place that cares about itself, that has integrity, that wants to do good work, that actually cares about the people that can talk about its flaws and deal with it. I know this sounds so general, but I do not think that people are spending enough time tending to the jobs that people have so that they will enjoy being in them. And if they're disproportionately more enjoyable here, they will stay. If they're disproportionately more enjoyable somewhere else, they will go. And I think. I don't think that is given enough consideration.
- [63:05]
Tom Kenney
Yeah, I think one of the reasons why we've seen the rise of independent agencies is because of our commitment to culture and fostering a good culture. And it's hard to foster a good culture when you're in a massive campus and you feel as though you're stacked upon 12 different other agencies. Whereas, you know, you just look around this space, you can tell that this is an agency that cares about, you know, the type of place people are coming to every day and what kind of, you know, environment and vibe it has.
- [63:32]
Jay Carney
Yeah, I think I want to throw one last thing, and I think, you know, there's. There's opportunity to create, and one thing you can see on the stage is there's opportunity just to build a new business and have it be successful. And what I would say to anybody in the audience that, you know, feels frustrated or feels like they want to give up, it's like, yeah, you can go to another agency or you can create your own shop. And I want to give full credit to Zach, you know, a Zulu who said to me one day, he's like, I was complaining about something in the industry, and he said, well, why don't you create your own shop? And I was like, you're kind of right. Like, and that stuck in my head forever. And I told him, you know, that started all this, like, he. His, like, just response to me was, what started, you know, what eventually became bhla, along with, you know, some conversations with Carlos. And it's like, you know, I think the barrier to entry is very low. It takes some guts, it takes some work, and it takes some connections, and it, you know, takes a perspective, but you can do it. It's no problem. So there's nothing special about it.
- [64:30]
Fergus O'Carroll
One last question here.
- [64:32]
Sean McDonald
You're not going to get Carlos out of here, are you?
- [64:35]
Jay Carney
Shout out To Mike. Huge, huge fan of the independents. Congrats to all of you out there. I hope I get this right.
- [64:44]
Sean McDonald
I've had a couple of years already.
- [64:47]
Jay Carney
We all came from networks. We all learned our craft on networks, met a lot of great people in networks. I look around this room and there's a lot of people that are probably really talented that I can see that.
- [64:58]
Sean McDonald
I know some that I don't know.
- [64:59]
Jay Carney
That you're probably even more talented than people that I know. What advice do you guys give to network shops to turn it around a little bit and at the same time create an industry that's a little bit more healthier for everybody in terms of growth, where everyone has a choice to have a great place to work and create great things, where clients have a choice to go and also and create great things.
- [65:25]
Heather Siegel
I think for those that are going to work with the system is find the moments to constructively challenge. And it might not be on the whole, it might be on the part, but those small wins can earn trust to make bigger, braver choices that follow. And I think a lot of the conversation today has been like, safety versus risk and making those choices and being okay to say no to things and being okay to take a swing because we feel that it's the right thing to do based on our experience.
- [65:54]
Fergus O'Carroll
So that is it. There is a huge hockey game on that everybody needs to run. And hockey in Canada.
- [66:00]
Jay Carney
There's probably five.
- [66:01]
Fergus O'Carroll
Hockey in Canada, Right? Listen, thank you so much for being here. We crowded the room out. We sold out tonight. And we really appreciate the full support of Toronto. It was amazing. And I hope we. I know we'll come back here again and I hope you guys will continue to listen to the show. And it's an honor to be amongst such great talent as we have here on the stage and many others that I know are here in the audience that didn't actually get to be on stage this evening. So thank you all and thanks, you guys for doing everything.