B (3:30)

Thanks, Fergus. Happy to be here.

A (3:32)

And to you too. And we have Kate Rashehy, who is Chief Strategy Officer of GSDNM in Austin, Texas. A favorite of the show. She was in our Dallas event live on stage. Good to have you back, Kate.

C (3:44)

Great to be here. Although very different to talk about brands from the UK versus brands from Texas.

A (3:50)

That's right. We did focus on Texas while we were in Texas and appropriately so. Matthew Herbert is back. Happy New Year, Matthew. He is the co founder of Tracksuit. Are you in London today, Matthew, or where are you?

D (4:00)

You?

E (4:00)

I'm in a very cold, wet, gray London. Happy New Year.

A (4:04)

You are. And also coming from London and substituting for Vanessa Chin this month is Andrew Tindall, SVP of partnerships for System One. Welcome back, Andrew.

F (4:18)

Hi, Fergus. I'm very glad to be joining what I affectionately call the sexiest voice in pop marketing podcasting.

A (4:27)

Really? Are you talking about Matthew again? He's got it going on with Nixon. Well, it's great to have you here. I've got a couple of brands that we're going to be talking about, as I mentioned, Burberry and Johnnie Walker. Now, I wanted to show you guys my phenomenal box of Johnnie Walker blue. For those of you watching on YouTube, you can see this. This was given to me by the great people at Diageo when they came on the show. And it was Chris Goddard who at the time was Global VP for Johnnie Walker. And Camilla Harrison is the CEO of Anomaly. And we talked about Johnnie Walker and I think I want to start with. I'm gonna start with Burberry, though. But we talked about Johnny Walker. I've loved that brand and I've loved that work for so long. And we'll jump into it when we get there. But the story is a great example of so many Things that are important in marketing. And I have some questions about it, and I'm sure you guys do, and we'll get to that in the second half of this episode. But first of all, let's talk about our first brand. It is Burberry. And of course, Andrew is here because Burberry and his experience with Johnnie Walker. And, Brendan, you want to ask that question you wanted to ask before we started?

B (5:47)

Yeah. Just curious. How deep is your experience with Johnnie Walker? Does it involve consumption or mostly just. Are you a student of the brand?

F (5:57)

No, mostly consumption. But one of my jobs was helping manage Johnny Walker in the UK for Diageo.

B (6:05)

Right on.

F (6:06)

So I. I should have emailed someone and asked legally what I shouldn't say during this. I'm just. I'm just gonna be cautious. Yeah.

B (6:14)

It is noteworthy that Fergus showed us that bottle, but it seems unopened.

A (6:20)

This one is unopened.

E (6:21)

Yeah.

F (6:21)

I worked in alcohol FMCG marketing for, like, eight years. I think bottles are for opening, Fergus, and for drinking.

A (6:31)

So here's the thing.

F (6:32)

No such thing as a furniture bottle.

A (6:34)

See, dude, this is not the only bottle I have.

E (6:37)

Here it is.

A (6:38)

The other bottle is opened. And I gotta tell you a little secret. I cannot stand the smell of Scotch. So when I have people over, I give them this blue label, because this is the shit of Johnnie Walker. The best of the best, I believe. And so this is like, I don't know, 250 to $300 a bottle or something like that. But I can't. I don't know, man. I grew up in Ireland, as most people know, and I think I grew up around too many uncles who drank Scotch when they came to visit us. And it stunk so bad, man. So I kind of. I'm a bourbon drinker. I cannot drink Scotch or touch Scotch. So when people come over, I do share this prized possession. So big ups to for Diageo for sending me two bottles over the span of this show. They've been on a coup. So not that we expect Burberry to actually send me any coats or fashion items.

E (7:34)

I feel like quite. Quite good in a Burberry coat there, Fergus.

A (7:37)

It could look pretty good. A little rain slick or something like that.

C (7:40)

Yeah. I feel like y' all are experts in consumption of Johnnie Walker. I am an expert in consumption of Burberry.

A (7:47)

You are. Okay, okay. Good, good, good. I'm excited about that, this new work. Let's talk a little bit. Since you jumped in there, Kate, let's talk a little bit about this brand we're going to be talking mostly about the recent work from Olivia Colman that's been running throughout most of 2025. Great body of work, but I wanted to start off by talking about what we think the business problem is, that that work is trying to solve. So tell us a little bit about how you think about the brand and then tell us about what you think the business problem is and then we'll go around the table.

C (8:21)

Yeah. Part of what is interesting to me for Burberry specifically is that you rewind back to 22, 23. The luxury category was actually doing pretty decently coming out of the pandemic, and Burberry was not. So in 2024, they needed a major turnaround. Sales were down, they had to lay off. Gosh, it was 1500, 2000 employees across the globe. The CEO was ousted and the new CEO who's come in, there's a lot of coverage out there about what he's really tried to help the team do, which is focus number one on a core group of products, the coats and trenches being part of that. And then also getting back to the classic check that is iconic to Burberry, but also ensuring every communication communicates timeless British luxury. So making sure that that positioning is clear, carving out a distinctive path for Burberry. And that's what I think this work does really well, both of those things. It focuses on the iconic trench to make sure people know the signature product Burberry is known for. And secondly, I mean, it is quintessential, quintessentially British.

A (9:30)

And why do you think it actually.

C (9:31)

The features and Olivia Colman herself.

A (9:34)

Why do you think the brand didn't recover while others did?

F (9:38)

Any British person, only from the uk, admittedly, you know, is aware of the fact that. I don't know if this is a. I'm just going to say it, you know, CHAV started wearing Burberry, didn't they? And it started to lose its cultural cache, started to perceived as less premium. That was the core brand problem behind their business issue. Matt, do you have actual date? Do you track the brand association chav for Burberry over the past 10 years or.

A (10:08)

What is chav? What are you referring to when you say chav?

E (10:12)

I'll let you take this one.

F (10:16)

It is people that hang out in. It is true. I think it's an acronym. I think it's trouble dudes, you know, that kind of hang out on the. On the streets, bother people, that kind of stuff. Shout, shout at people. Matt, do you know any of the definition of that or can you please bring some data to it?

E (10:37)

My understanding of CHEV starts with council.

F (10:39)

Housing and so is it an actual acronym? Maybe we have to get it. I don't know the full ones.

E (10:45)

I don't know the full acronym, but. Andrew, thanks for the softball there.

F (10:50)

Yeah.

E (10:50)

We are tracking attributes and perceptions around Burberry and what comes through the strongest that we see is heritage, is tradition, is quality, is that Britishness? But then there's this segment of khaki and chav. Literally the words chav come through. And so I was looking at those attributes and that's a very British term. But it's coming, but it's coming in. And so it's, you know, from Andrew.

A (11:17)

Did the brand drive themselves into that market because they saw a way into pop culture?

F (11:21)

Or do you.

A (11:22)

Or did it happen organically?

F (11:24)

The negative thing, it's almost like, you know how Abercrombie eventually started paying, paying that guy to stop wearing their clothes because it was like damaging for the brand image. They got the wrong consumer segment starting to wear that flows and that premiumness was kind of eroded.

E (11:44)

This might be a super big tangent and someone feel free to fact check me on this, but I was speaking to some of the works in hedge funds and they were looking at the buy now, pay later group of businesses ever since COVID And one of the stats that stuck with me is they were looking at this and they said the highest proportion of people who are buying Rolexes are 18 to 24 year olds on less than 30 grand a year.

F (12:11)

Right.

E (12:11)

And so that's where I think your buy now, pay later, your disposable incomes, the status plus also maybe the, you know, the dupe. The dupe and the fakes and the amount of just, you see people in Burberry and Gucci and Prada and the amount of people now walking around in luxury gear or Ermes bags. You walk down Canal street in New York. Right. It's crazy. And so I think that's probably had quite a big, a big impact on, on the category. And you know, from the category in terms of, of designer luxury in the uk, we are seeing the category soften, we're seeing brand health metrics soften across all the brands. So it's not just a Burberry problem, but there are some good, there are some good stories there for Burberry over the last 12 months, which we can, we can get into.

A (12:57)

So that's got to be a consistent challenge for luxury brands that are trying to push themselves into popular culture that they risk tripping up on themselves or they risk adopters of an aspect of the brand getting the entire brand in trouble. And that's a huge thing that, that becomes the reason why the brand has become so soft in terms of sales and in terms of its positioning.

E (13:22)

Well, I think that's a challenge, that's a challenge for the category with the amount of fakes and dupes out there. And you know, that's what can a business do or what can Burberry do or Prada or Hermes do to counter the counterfeit, you know, culture and mass production of product? And I think that's something that, yeah, that's a, it's going to be an ongoing challenge coming into this year.

B (13:45)

Matt, do you see Burberry underperforming that downward trend or are they just pacing the category? Are they doing worse or are they kind of just the same as everyone else?

E (13:58)

They are holding more stable than the rest of the brands. I mean Hermes and Prada are outperforming, I think, you know, call those two out. Preference for Burberry in the UK is at 15%.

F (14:12)

Right.

E (14:12)

And that's in the fourth position of some of the designer brands that we're, that we're looking at where there is and I think this comes amongst general.

A (14:18)

Population or what of people who are.

E (14:21)

Purchasing designer luxury fashion items. So a more narrow, a more narrow perspective of active consumers. What I thought was quite interesting, and maybe I'll softball this back to Andrew is that when we look at the drivers of consideration between awareness and consideration, what is the driver of that? One of them that comes through at 2.4 times more likely is a brand I feel positively about.

A (14:44)

Right.

E (14:44)

So there's an emotional piece in here. Burberry has seen an 11% increase between 45 and 54 year olds in the last three months compared to the three months before that. And so generating word of voice, talking about like do I actually feel positively towards Burberry? We are starting to see that come through and that's probably a challenge that I look at Burberry and especially with the Olivia Colman workers, are they doubling down on their core audience.

A (15:11)

Or is.

E (15:12)

There a new audience that going after? And I think the work that's coming out is in that middle age group. And I speak about customer segments and age demographics very carefully but as a broad brush they're doubling down and it's really resonating.

C (15:28)

Looking at that work, my first question was who is this for? And it's a global piece of work. So first I Asked like, is this really going to resonate with Americans? There's that it's a famous quote about, you know, what is it? Hold on. I wrote it down. England and America are two countries separated by the same language. Whether you attribute it to Oscar Wilde or Bernard Shaw or Winston Churchill. This commercial in particular made me think that as an American, I didn't fully grasp it. And I spent a lot of time in London for work. And part of it was like, you know, maybe that's on. On purpose and it makes you want to know, because I wanted to know a little bit more lean in. Or is it for the Brit that 15% or maybe the 85% who hasn't considered the brand but is in market for luxury? Good, because it says something about the culture of England and the everydayness that exists in the world. So that was my biggest question, is, who is this for? And my biggest takeaway was because the branding is so minimal, it feels like if you know, you know, it's for somebody who already will recognize the signpost of the trench will pick up on the very kind of implicit cues because you don't get to the logo till the very end. And even then you don't see the word Burberry. That has to be for people who are already initiated into the cult.

F (16:57)

This point, do we explain the ad? Have we played the ad on the podcast at this point?

A (17:02)

We have not played it yet, Andrew. Hang on. So it was interesting. I know you want to talk about ads.

F (17:08)

I've not even seen that.

A (17:09)

This is not an on ad showcase. It's on strategy.

F (17:15)

It's the advertising focus.

A (17:16)

I know he wants to get to the meat of it, but, you know, it's interesting to me, when we had a show a couple of weeks ago where we talked about the British Airways work, and there was a great point brought up by one of the strategists and Dan Eng CEO, at least Chief Strategy Officer Johannes Leonardo in New York. He said that because he was talking to your exact same point, Kate. And his point was that English culture is universal culture. That, you know, when you look at the amount of people that are listening to or watching Britbox or watching Downton Abbey, there's this sort of it translates internationally so that work. And when you look at a universally recognized actress like Olivia Colman, you begin to see how that culture begins to spread in a very positive way. I think it used to be American culture. Now I think in a great way, I think it's English culture that is an amazing currency internationally. So I Think it works on both continents. Does that make sense?

C (18:20)

Yeah, I do think it works. It's more for me, at least. While I didn't fully grasp it, I kind of wish I did. The nuance, not the overall kind of picture. And maybe that is the aspiration they're reaching for.

A (18:34)

And what's the nuance when you say nuance?

C (18:37)

If you haven't been to London and you haven't ordered fish and chips, the idea of choosing between cod and haddock might be completely lost on you.

A (18:45)

Yeah, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. And I find that the most intriguing part because I'm learning something. So it's like the dots are connected to a new thing I begin to discover about culture. Okay, so let's. To Andrew's request, let's actually play a couple of the spots. The first one we're gonna hear a clip from is her in a chip shop, which is a French fry shop or fast food place. Very English and Irish too. Also another one she plays. So she plays different characters in different locations or environments around the country. One which would be much more blue collar. Another one which is a lot more premium. So she's sitting in different worlds in different spots, playing different characters. So the first one is serving the chips that we talk about in the chip shop. Second is she plays a tour guide in a museum. You'll hear a clip from that. And then the third one, I don't know how to describe her. She's sort of the female version of a country squire almost. She's driving through the countryside in her Land Rover and comes across a flock of sheep blocking the road. And so I'll play clips from that now and then we'll come back and talk with Andrew.

D (19:57)

There you go.

F (19:58)

Next, fish and chips, please.

D (20:00)

Just fish and chips.

F (20:01)

Yeah.

D (20:04)

Coddle haddock monster. Classic had. It is tastier, in my opinion. I'll give you one of each and then you can compare.

F (20:12)

Okay.

D (20:13)

Oh, well, you'll be wanting a savoloy Savoy battered, of course.

F (20:17)

Okay.

D (20:18)

Mushy peas and mushy. I'll give you two. Famous moment of his life was when he. He removed his cloak and laid it over a puddle so that a particularly important person of the time could walk across it without getting her feet wet. What a gentleman. Yeah, but terrible teeth. I mean, really bad. Everyone did then, though. Or wooden teeth.

F (20:38)

Hardly. Better. Ew.

D (20:40)

I know, quite. Now imagine, if you will, a puddle. I'm going to play the role of the very important lady who's going to remove their coat and lay it over the puddle for me. You, madam?

F (20:49)

No.

D (20:50)

Okay, I'm having you on. Right, next stop is the Earl of Sandwich. Chop chop. Yeah, it is strange. And you know what else is strange? Living in the middle of nowhere.

F (20:59)

I would think you'd be able to.

D (21:00)

Get some sleep out there. Yeah, I've tried everything. Medication, white noise, apps. Just very tired. I just can't sleep. I think I'm gonna have to go back to counting sheep. Is everything all right, darling? Oh.

F (21:26)

I've posted about most of these on. On my LinkedIn. I'm a big Olivia Coleman fan and this actually inspired a lot of debate, this campaign between me and my boyfriend, who, you know, he's very luxury and I like wearing jeans and go to the club. None of the ads really get above one star in our test. Wow. So they really struggle to inspire an emotion. Our star rating is the emotional response to advertise.

A (21:55)

And that's a 1 to 5.9 rating.

F (21:58)

Yes. Yeah. The category average is about 2. Just fashion, digital and journalists. It really struggles to get above 2. And any of this campaign with a broad audience and more interestingly, because emotions just have to. Half of that's all.

A (22:14)

So you bring up a good point there. So if you say amongst the broad audience is. You're not targeting amongst. You're not able to segment out the people who might be the target audience, the people you referred to earlier.

F (22:26)

And I was about to go and do that and I stopped myself because that's not the point. So I was about to go because I was preparing for this. I'm very diligent in Fergus. I was preparing for weights for this podcast. I was thinking, should I segment and test with verbally bias or even fashion, you know, luxury fashion buyers? No, because category leaders must grow their brand through new penetration of new customers. You shouldn't be advertising to past buyers and category leaders. Erin Modbus has shown that 75% of share growth from category leaders actually comes from expanding the category, not stealing share. So we should also not be worried about those that claim their fashion. Luxury fashion.

A (23:09)

But isn't that. Isn't that the buyer they're trying to reclaim though? This, this is the business problem is they've lost favor within the category of people who would or might have bought them.

F (23:18)

Everybody's still surely a category leader in this market, right?

E (23:22)

At an awareness level, absolutely. But then it's, you know, then it's. It's dropping off.

F (23:28)

They can't just focus on re recruiting, stealing customers and getting past customers. That's not how brands Grow. Like what we talk about there, Fergus. You're not a proponent of loyalty, are you, Fergus?

A (23:41)

I'm very loyal to my wife and my children.

F (23:44)

Do they have a loyalty problem? Is that the strategy here? No, that can't be true.

A (23:48)

No, I don't mean a commitment. Yeah, no, let's not go there. But my thing is. But if I was to talk about your partner and you, you being a representative of the potential market, your boyfriend being a representation of in market, what do you think he would think or how do you think he might score on a scale of 1 to 5.9?

F (24:08)

I think he would score 5 on our star rating. He would be intensely, positively happy. And that brings us on to our second key metric, distinctiveness. We measure fluency. None of the ads we tested got higher than 20% brand recognition.

A (24:23)

But let me ask you this, because this is my thing. What about campaign effects, though? Because nobody just sees an ad and we can't judge a whole campaign based upon a single execution. What about social impact? What about the whole campaign effect in ad testing?

F (24:40)

I agree. So I'm on the fence about this. I think only a marketer would believe that a customer would care so much that they're stitching together one or two seconds of attention spread across bush stops. Social. I mean, sometimes at Christmas, people try to do like three part stories. Can you imagine? Like in the planner's head, I can imagine them going, okay, so great. They've really enjoyed part one, then they're waiting for part two. They remember part one, but then part three comes in and the whole thing. Oh, it's beautiful.

A (25:14)

Well, dude, Dude. Kevin the carrot. Kevin. What about Kevin the Carrot?

F (25:18)

Yeah, Kevin the Carrot. One of the most distinctive ads ever that gets 100% brand recognition after a few seconds because they've invested and used distinctive brand assets. Like, I think there's. What's great about this Burberry campaign, and we touched on it, is. And there's this new. We're launching a new book with Fe Sistema in a few weeks, and we're going to be talking about in it the creative dividend. And there's four ways you can really be more creative in your category. More emotional, more distinctive, more entertaining or showmanship, and more consistent. I think the Burberry stuff is weirdly consistent. The tone and the tone and the product use is very consistent. It's incredibly entertaining to build on that.

C (25:59)

What I think is interesting from a campaign effect to your question, Fergus, is they have a positioning of timeless British luxury that is stitching together many communications from the welcome sign up baggage claim at Heathrow to one of these communications and I do think they hit the bullseye on all of those in a way that feels both more modern while still being classic to the brand and its heritage and DNA without over anchoring in the heritage like it feels. Like I said, there's an everydayness to these video components of the campaign that make it feel very contemporary and accessible which I think is important to grow with new people and someone who may not be a dedicated luxury buyer saying like maybe I want that and maybe that is enough to help these, these video pieces feel a little bit bigger. I agree. No one's trying to stitch it all together, but they all give the same vibe and have a distinctiveness in that way which I do think is working. Even though the branding has some room room to improve.

A (27:05)

We'll be right back. Want Always on Brand Metrics that Deliver Value to Stakeholders this episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question. Is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking without the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heav heavy lifting, using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Check it out@gotracksuit.com that's gotracksuit.com are celebrities the secret sauce to add effectiveness? What about music or brand characters? You can predict and improve advertising's commercial impact with System1's test yout ad Platform. Test yout Add is the creative effectiveness platform that measures consumers emotional responses, predicting the sales and growth impacts of advertising. You can test creative for linear and connected tv, digital, outdoor, audio and print channels from early concepts through to finished film plus access. System One's Test yout Ad Premium platform with more than 150,000 ads in the database, you get the most accurate view of your category with results and rankings updated daily. So create with confidence. To learn more, visit systemonegroup.com that's system1group.com now back to the show. All right, let's move on to Johnnie Walker and there's a connective tissue between these brands challenges and I think it's this idea of keeping up with popular culture, inserting yourself into popular culture in a way that tears you away from being rooted in traditional luxury or in, I think in the case of sort of legacy or what's the term that they use, Legacy whiskey drinkers. In the case of Johnnie Walker. So let's talk about this one. I'm going to just play a couple of spots just to kick it off with and we'll play with this and edit. But for me, my recognition to Johnnie Walker started with the Robert Carlisle spot in 2009. Now for me, that's when it kind of got on my radar because it was such, to me, a brilliant creative idea. It was performed so perfectly, it worked so well. It rooted itself in its heritage and legacy as a Scotch whiskey brand. It had talkability, at least within the industry. It was a fucking six minute film though. And that was in 2009.

G (30:12)

Here's a true story about a young lad named John, Just a local farm boy. But there was something special about the lad. A glint in his eye, a fire in his belly, a spring in his step. And one day he went for a walk. Now, this walk began when his father died. The year was 1819 and he was just 14 years old. They're even counselling. Well, these were the days when young boys were sent into the fields, the mills, the mines.

F (30:39)

Tough times.

G (30:40)

But young John was smart enough to be lucky. His father's farm, where he was born and raised was sold and the proceeds used to open a grocer's big responsibility for the wee land, his own shop in Kilmarnock with his name in the door. John Walker. Hop Johnny as the world now knows it.

A (30:59)

Now that was not the beginning though, of this entire keep walking platform. It started with Harvey Keitel In 1999, when Harvey Keitel was talking about his experience as an actor on stage. And we'll drop all of this work on our website, you guys can see it. But the man who Walked around the world. Brendan, do you remember that spot and that film? And what do you think again, back to this issue of the business problem that's trying to be solved with work like this. What do you think the problems are that needs to be fixed or they're trying to fix with marketing?

B (31:37)

You know, I think like broadly, I would imagine, like when I thought about this spot and reflected on it, I think there's, there's some pretty obvious problems, right? Like one overall decline in alcohol consumption with younger generations with the need to attract, you know, younger whiskey buyers specifically, and new to category buyers for the brand for me, the problem seemed to be like, how to make a legacy Scotch brand, which in it sounds like Scotch feels old. Like Scotch feels old. It feels like an old man drink. Right. It feels like, you know, maybe a guy from Ireland with an O apostrophe would drink. And just as a thought. As a thought. You know, in.

A (32:18)

In sort of, you know, and in certain circles it's referred to as Scotch, and in other circles it's referred to as whiskey. And whiskey has a much call a cooler level of associations with it.

C (32:26)

Totally. And then at GSD and M, we work on the Corona business, so we are always tracking what's happening and in beer and spirits. And the biggest trend in spirits is the move to canned cocktails and tequila in particular. So I agree, you think about Scotch and I mean, my association, little older than Gen Z, who they might be trying to win with, of legal drinking age, is like, I think Ron Burgundy, Scotchy, Scotch, old man, like, you know, a certain connotation. So I think it has that up against it. While you've got people going for cute little cans and tequila, like lighter spirits.

F (33:02)

Overall, the issue is the category has all fallen for the same strategy that Brendan was just sharing around. Scotch and whiskey is dusty. So what are we going to do? We're going to go for progress. So you see that in Glen Fiddick now and where it's about the stags, about progress. Jack Daniels, the Make It Count is about moving things forward. And quite like sport advertising as well, that turned into this kind of like progress soup. And everyone starts to have a really close positioning, which is unfortunate.

A (33:41)

Why are they doing that, do you feel?

F (33:43)

Well, everyone's copying Johnny Walker.

A (33:45)

Well, isn't everybody just trying to find a foot in popular culture? And is that the problem? They're all dipping in the same cultural pot.

C (33:54)

I wonder if it's about popular culture or if it's. Over the last decade, how many briefs we've written that were about aspiration. And aspiration is progress, which I feel is how a lot of brands can start to end up in that space, eroding something that Johnnie Walker has owned for decades. What do you think, Andrew?

F (34:12)

Yes, completely. It's just. Yeah. But I. I will stick to the fact that Johnny Walker did this first. This is an iconic campaign that has built billions of pounds of category value. Like, and it's. And it's carried Diageo through the centuries. Everyone else works in this brand should be considered a legend. Where it's got to now is quite different. So, like, if you look at the Robert Carlyle stuff. It's about progress, collective fabric storytelling. And it's Scottish. Like, it wasn't afraid to be Scottish. And I don't think Scottish. A lot of whiskies are now, like, pretending to not be Scotch and go for whiskey. And they're a global spirit brand instead of whiskey, which I don't think necessarily means that you're going to have to charge more. I think you can do things in a very premium way and still be Scottish. Like the Glenn Murray work with Harrison Ford or Ben Moranji. Sorry, yeah. Glenn Moranji, I assume so. There's too many Glenns in this category. With Harrison Ford, that's like, Scottish as hell. That's premium. And Harrison Ford's in a kilt with his stuff out.

A (35:22)

And just so people know, you cannot be called a Scotch unless your product's from Scotland. It's the same with champagne, the same with cognac. That's why not everybody can be Scotch, but everybody can be whiskey.

F (35:34)

Last time I was working the brand was that brilliant campaign. I don't know. We called it Anthems. Internally, it was the. Where the fan wrote a song of walking in it.

A (35:45)

Yes, yes. These boots were made for walking.

D (35:49)

Take a walk on the wild side.

A (35:55)

She told me to walk.

F (35:57)

That's right.

A (36:00)

She told me to. Walk all over you.

D (36:15)

Come on.

F (36:17)

That was emotional. Well branded. Total of cultural clout.

A (36:22)

The way that they talk about it is that Keep Walking was about collective progress in society, and they're now facing this towards being progress at an individual level. So you're having personal stories. So when they take the walking out of Keep Walking, it's replaced with Keep dreaming, keep playing, keep searching. There's any number of different areas, in other words, to point yourself. So it's getting into more individual, personal stories. Stories. And obviously, when you're trying to freshen a brand and keep this platform alive, you begin, I think, as a strategist, to start to look at. Okay, how else can we point it? And I suppose the question becomes whether that is progressing the brand or whether the earlier work was stronger. Andrew, do you have a sense of. I mean, for example, let's play the new work now. And people can hear this spot and you can see it on our website. Keep dreaming, keep wondering, keep searching.

D (37:29)

Keep.

A (37:30)

Playing, keep creating, keep guessing, keep beginning, keep failing, keep breathing, keep fighting, trusting.

E (37:45)

Pushing, risking, keep provoking, keeping daring, keep raising, keep walking.

F (37:53)

You know, these guys are nailing the distinctive side of things, and it is consistent. Like, they've consistently executed the slogan the campaign, the idea, the assets over time. What we're seeing is just that emotional appeal is dropping off a little bit. I think someone said the word vignette, you know, lots of fast cuts across the stuff. What I yearn for is just someone on the brand to pick one story that captures what keep walking means globally in 2026 and tell that person's story, which will be really right brained, capture broad attention. And that's also how you dispel category rejecters because if you show a kind of storytelling and entertainment and be right brain, like it draws everyone's attention. So I just really want to see what keep walking means for one beautiful story versus kind of like a vignette like this.

A (38:50)

Like the campaign they ran a couple of years ago. I think the one that you were referring to where they used various celebrities and quotes from various celebrities about. Under the. Under the theme of keep walking. And it was basically quotes from these people that were about making. Continuing to make progress in the face of. Of resistance. Why would they change that?

B (39:13)

When I think about what I would write for a creative brief for this, obviously it's easy to be 2020 hindsight backseat driver. But one of the things I would certainly have recognized is the cultural moment around the world, kind of not just the category moment, but the broader cultural moment kind of demands a little bit of resilience. It demands a little bit of commitment and kind of personal strength because it's. It doesn't feel like the structures that kind of supported a lot of us are as strong as they used to be. I think where they went with this creative brief, I think directionally makes a lot of sense. Right. I don't know necessarily if I would have wanted to go away from more personal stories. I tend to agree with Andrew that I think that would have gotten a lot more global strength out of it in terms of impact. But I think from a strategy perspective, I think the shift to emphasizing resilience makes a lot. Makes a lot of sense here.

A (40:10)

Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

F (40:11)

It stands in direct contrast to what Glenmoranje has done when they've moved their five years of marketing spend forward. As Capex hired Harrison Ford, shot one campaign, and they're going to use that campaign for the next five years. And it's a brand campaign with a celeb, but it's like they've gone big, big on it and they're going to use that for five years globally, whereas you can. Well, it's a fact. Johnny Walker releasing a new campaign A new ad, if I could finish one.

B (40:41)

One part of the thought before we go on is sort of like I think the question is are they fighting for brand distinction or do they have to fight for category relevance? And to me one of the biggest questions that I have going back to the start of this part of the conversation is like, like if whiskey and alcohol is in a challenged position then as leaders don't they have to play to the category and make the category more appealing? And I'm not sure that the stre. Like the, the marketing strategy here focuses on like strengthening the category as much as it is strengthening the brand.

A (41:14)

I want to bring Matthew in and, and what does it look like as, as a brand, Matthew and in the numbers and how do you, how, how has it been changing over the last 12 months or so?

B (41:22)

How.

E (41:24)

I am just thoroughly enjoying this because I'm going to put myself into a, a potentially new category buyer over Christmas when I'm sitting there with my father in law and I'm just trying to, trying to enjoy whiskey, I just, I just, I can't stand it. I'm just trying to, and I'm built, I'm building it up. So I'm going to bring, I'll bring objective and then I'll some objective data in here and then I'll bring Johnny Walker and then I'll, and I'll bring a personal perspective. So from an objective, if you visit.

F (41:53)

A distillery, Scotland, you will fall in love with scotch and you'll drink it for the rest of your life.

E (41:58)

I'm here, I'm ripe for the taking, I'm ripe for the taking here. So if I look from an objective perspective that we've been tracking in the whiskey category in the US with Tracksuit the last in the whiskey category over the last 12 months the category has declined 10 percentage points with those between 21 and 34. So I think the category issue and the job to be done, the business issue, the category issue is the categories in decline, particularly in decline in the 21 to 34 year olds, which is where Johnnie Walker's been going after. Okay, so there's a job to be building the category. Then we have a look to say, all right, well if we've got awareness, consideration, preference to usage, what are the attributes that are driving those? And like the majority of categories out there is for people like me, relevance is a brand I trust and is a premium brand. And I think it's to Brendan's point, the premium brands and the Scotch and the Scottish heritage is probably something to, to, you know, lean into, keep, keep.

A (42:54)

I agree. And I mean I would love to see more Robert, Robert Carlile like ideas that are epic man, that can be, that can be used for, for over a long period of time.

C (43:06)

Especially when you think about the Gen Z being the audience they want to win with. Part of what I loved about the Robert Carlisle work. It's 2009, I'm a year out of college and all I've learned in ad school our 30s and 60s and to see this epic five and a half minute ad that could only be because of YouTube and its nascency and the kind of upswing of YouTube as a primary entertainment channel. I hunger to see an individual story where I actually can dig into what the identity I'm supposed to be aspiring for here is. But an interesting use of channel that could help tell that story in a way that the Robert Carlisle piece did so well.

A (43:47)

Okay, let's go around the table as we close out and I want to get your summary thoughts on both of these, on the sort of what is your overall impression of both or advice you might give to both of these brands, one being Burberry, the second being Johnnie Walker. You can say it from the context of do more of this and do less of this or make up your own construct. I'll start with Brendan, then I'll go to Kate, then I'll go to Andrew and then I'll finish with Matt. So Brendan, the pressure is on.

F (44:15)

I know.

B (44:16)

I feel it, it, gosh, with Burberry I'm not really much of a make the logo bigger guy, but like make the logo bigger.

A (44:25)

Just like let us know who you.

B (44:26)

Are and like, you know, let, let us in on it. That's it. I, I think it's fun, it's whimsical, it's campy. I, I love, I love the work. I love the, you know, I love the talent. It's, it's good. Just, just make the logo bigger for Johnny Walker. I think I, I think I would focus to Andrew's point on a specific story. Like, like balance out the sort of resilience angle with the kind of context and character that will resonate with, with your younger audience and just zero in on that. That would be my push. But I think that you know, the cultural insight that I think drove it around, you know, resilience and dedication. Keep that, just humanize it more.

A (45:03)

Where are we going to go, Andrew? Next please.

F (45:06)

So you know, mentioned earlier, end of Jan new book coming out of FE and System One. There's four ways you can be more creative, and that is emotion, distinctiveness, being entertaining. So showmanship and right brand consistency. Burberry is really nailing the consistency and showmanship, but we need some more distinctiveness in there. Like it's. We need to crank up distinctive brand assets. Not gonna say it's meant a logo bigger, but that's a great creative brief. How do we integrate our brand into this without ruining the rest of it? That's what you brief a creative team to do. It's a great brief with Johnny Walker. I think it's really distinctive. It's really consistent. It's got enough emotion. How do we crank up that entertainment and right brain so we can actually attract and hold that broad attention again?

A (45:54)

Yeah. Kate.

C (45:56)

No new notes on Burberry. I agree. Distinctive vibe. Own it for Johnnie Walker.

A (46:03)

Go in a different creative direction or you like the creative direction?

C (46:05)

I like the creative direction. It's entertaining. What Brandon said. It's whimsical. What Andrew said. I wish there was more product or that you knew is Burberry from the start. So they get credit for the really fun everydayness and contemporary vibe they're bringing to a heritage brand. When I look at Johnnie Walker, I've been thinking a lot about my favorite. Now that we've explored other spirits advertising, the Belvedere one. I mean, Daniel Craig, Jess, I love the dance move, but if you think about some of the best, right where Guinness and the surfer or Southern Comfort and the gentleman, the shirtless and a Speedo walking down the beach, they've always chosen a human truth bigger than the liquid or the occasion. And Johnnie Walker has that at its core. So I think the challenge isn't finding a new message. Keep this, keep this, keep this, keep this. It's really about making that truth feel perhaps more like physically and emotionally present or really timely in a world that is tired of being told what to aspire for, especially as you have other brands leaning into progress and aspiration and reach for what's next. Johnnie Walker could have a much more interesting lens on that.

F (47:16)

Matt.

E (47:19)

For Burberry, I feel like the assets and the distinctiveness is there for me as someone who knows and is familiar with Burberry. But to the point, if the objective is to bring new consumers into the category for Burberry, then and maybe just show Burberry and start tying that together a little more from a Johnnie Walker perspective. As a new entrant into the category, give me one story. Give it to me consistently. Let me remember it. And I'm going to be leaning your way. What I would be interested around is the Johnnie Walker element. And where else and how else are they showing up? You've got the campaign, you've got the creative, you've got channel mix. But how and where in the world are they showing up to connect with this, you know, this younger audience? That's something that I'd be quite interested in seeing the. The extra elements of the strategy and the activation.

C (48:16)

Yeah.

A (48:17)

They've been doing. Go ahead, Kate.

C (48:18)

I was gonna say. And that's where the. Sabrina Carpenter.

F (48:21)

Yeah, exactly.

A (48:21)

I was just gonna bring that up.

C (48:22)

Music execution to me, I was leaned in. It's very, you know, they're looking at these places where people have deep passion and where there is progress. And I thought that that execution spoke to me specifically in a way that the general advertising didn't. And that's why you do activation. Right dimensionalize for people who might want a deeper story.

F (48:41)

That's reminded me of one thing. Has anyone seen the Guinness ad where they go to think it's the Congo? And there's this collection of guys that. Yeah, the St. Pierre. That is an absolutely incredible example of what we're talking about, where Guinness made of Martin went and found one story and committed to telling it. And that is one of my favorite ads I've ever seen. And it's absolutely incredible. What we're talking about there is Diageo's been and done it with different brands before, and we just need a little bit of that magic, don't we?

A (49:16)

Yeah. And we've done a couple episodes on Guinness. For those who want to hear more about that campaign and the other creative executions within it, you can see it all on the website. Thank you, guys. It is Matthew Herbert, co founder of Tracksuit in London. Thank you for being here, Matthew. Andrew Tin SVP global partnerships with System One. He is in London. Brendan Volpe is chief strategy Officer for Universal McCann, um, in New York City. And Kate Rushehy is chief strategy officer for gsdm. Go Austin, Texas. We're gonna come to Austin, Texas, later this year, Kate, to do a show. So we'll talk more as we get a little bit closer to that.

C (49:56)

Come on down, y'.

F (49:57)

All.

A (49:59)

Thank you everybody. And we'll see everyone on the next episode.