On the Spot: Vrbo & Duluth Trading Co. Planners talking about brands they’ve never worked on

Summary

OnStrategy Showcase: Episode Summary – "On the Spot Ep1: Where Planners Talk About Brands They Never Worked On"

Release Date: March 23, 2025
Host: Fergus O’Carroll
Guests: Vanessa Chin (System One), Michaela Hopkins (Tracksuit), Johnny Korpas (BBDO New York)

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of "Spot On," hosted by Fergus O’Carroll, OnStrategy Showcase explores unconventional perspectives by inviting planners to discuss brands they haven't directly worked on. This fresh approach aims to generate candid insights and creative discourse without the biases of firsthand involvement.

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VRBO Campaign Analysis

Brand Positioning and Strategy

Fergus initiates the discussion by highlighting VRBO's unique positioning in the vacation rental market. Unlike Airbnb, VRBO has consistently emphasized the whole home proposition—a strategy that sets it apart but also raises questions about category building versus brand differentiation.

Fergus O’Carroll [06:00]:
"Airbnb has about 80% of its reservations as whole home bookings. Is VRBO's focus on this niche a smart strategy to differentiate in a near-parity category?"

Johnny Korpas [07:53]:
"In cluttered categories, emphasizing even a small point of difference can create significant impact. VRBO's focus on whole homes, combined with unique tonal elements and talent choices, effectively punches above its weight."

Market Awareness and Challenges

Michaela Hopkins delves into VRBO's market presence, revealing impressive awareness metrics but highlighting a stark preference gap compared to Airbnb.

Michaela Hopkins [09:22]:
"VRBO's awareness sits at 60% of the accommodation category, with 150 million people aware. In contrast, Airbnb commands 85% awareness. This disparity limits VRBO's effectiveness in its chosen swim lane."

Johnny acknowledges VRBO's strong regional presence and brand loyalty but questions the long-term sustainability of their focused strategy amidst Airbnb's dominance.

Johnny Korpas [07:53]:
"VRBO is fighting to maintain its identity against a category giant. Their strategy leverages the unique whole home angle, but sustaining this requires continuous innovation and clear brand differentiation."

Creative Execution and Emotional Resonance

Vanessa Chin commends VRBO's emotional storytelling, particularly how their campaigns tap into deep family values and safety.

Vanessa Chin [12:54]:
"VRBO's work taps into emotional tensions, focusing on family safety and privacy. This approach creates a powerful narrative that distinguishes them from Airbnb's more casual and trend-focused campaigns."

Fergus showcases VRBO's "Nick Saban" campaign, which humorously portrays the strictness of the renowned football coach as a host, emphasizing the brand's humor and unique character.

Fergus O’Carroll [18:42]:
"VRBO's Nick Saban spot hilariously illustrates the challenges of sharing a home, elevating humor significantly by leveraging Saban's authoritative persona."

Johnny praises the campaign's cultural resonance and strategic alignment with college football, enhancing brand visibility and emotional connection.

Johnny Korpas [23:32]:
"The Nick Saban spot resonates deeply within the college football fanbase, leveraging his persona to create a memorable and engaging narrative that strengthens VRBO's brand association."

Testing and Brand Attribution

Vanessa highlights the effectiveness of VRBO's campaigns in evoking positive emotions, although brand attribution remains a challenge due to the evolving campaign strategies.

Vanessa Chin [26:45]:
"While VRBO's emotional storytelling scores above category averages, consistent brand attribution is lacking. It's crucial to maintain distinctive brand elements to enhance recognition and preference over time."

Johnny emphasizes the importance of integrating successful campaign elements into a broader brand ecosystem to leverage earned media and sustained engagement.

Johnny Korpas [29:47]:
"VRBO must commit to their successful campaign elements, integrating them into a cohesive brand strategy to capitalize on earned media and build long-term brand equity."

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Duluth Trading Company Campaign Analysis

Brand Identity and Market Positioning

Transitioning to Duluth Trading Company, Fergus sets the stage by contrasting them with major competitors like Carhartt and Wrangler. Duluth has carved out a distinct niche by maintaining a strong focus on their core audience—trade professionals—while injecting humor into their branding.

Fergus O’Carroll [30:00]:
"Duluth Trading competes against giants like Carhartt by staying true to their workwear roots, leveraging humor and distinctive branding to connect deeply with their target audience."

Johnny likens Duluth's creative approach to “the Red Bull of workwear,” praising their unique animated style and consistent humor that resonates with their consumers.

Johnny Korpas [31:53]:
"Duluth's animated campaigns are both memorable and effective, capturing their brand's humor and distinctiveness in a way that's rarely seen in the workwear category."

Creative Execution and Distinctive Assets

Michaela Hopkins and Vanessa Chin discuss the strengths of Duluth's creative assets, highlighting their consistent use of illustration and humor to build a relatable and memorable brand image.

Michaela Hopkins [33:13]:
"Duluth's back-of-the-napkin illustration style and humorous tone create a strong, relatable identity that resonates with their core audience of tradespeople."

Vanessa Chin [34:01]:
"Duluth's consistent visual and auditory cues enhance brand recognition and emotional engagement, placing their campaigns in the top tier of effectiveness within the sports and leisure category."

Product Naming and Brand Consistency

Fergus admires Duluth's approach to product naming, noting how it seamlessly integrates with their overall brand identity and humor.

Fergus O’Carroll [38:18]:
"Names like 'Buck Naked Underwear' and 'Funkno Underwear' exemplify how Duluth carries their brand's humor and distinctiveness down to the product level."

Johnny underscores the importance of authentic humor and brand alignment in product nomenclature.

Johnny Korpas [38:53]:
"Duluth's product names embody their brand's personality, reinforcing their identity through every touchpoint and enhancing consumer connection."

Expansion Challenges and Gender Appeal

The conversation shifts to Duluth's challenges in expanding their appeal to women without diluting their established masculine brand identity. Fergus highlights recent attempts to pivot, which have met with mixed results.

Fergus O’Carroll [43:25]:
"Duluth is exploring live-action campaigns to target women's wear, but there's concern over maintaining brand consistency and universal appeal without losing their distinct edge."

Vanessa advises maintaining consistency in core brand elements while exploring new creative avenues to appeal to a broader audience.

Vanessa Chin [45:10]:
"Duluth should stick to their proven humorous and distinctive style while strategically adapting elements to resonate with female audiences, ensuring brand integrity remains intact."

Johnny encourages commitment to the original creative approach, suggesting that initial setbacks should not derail the overall strategy but rather inspire further refinement.

Johnny Korpas [46:18]:
"Duluth must stay committed to their distinct creative approach, finding ways to adapt without losing the authenticity that makes their brand resonate so strongly with their audience."

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Final Insights and Conclusions

Fergus O’Carroll wraps up the discussions by reflecting on the delicate balance VRBO and Duluth must maintain between category building and brand differentiation. He emphasizes the importance of sustained commitment to creative strategies that have proven effective while remaining open to refinement and adaptation.

Final Thoughts from Guests:

• Johnny Korpas: Advocates for VRBO to build upon its successful campaigns and urges Duluth to maintain their distinctive humor while exploring new market segments.

• Vanessa Chin: Encourages both brands to leverage their unique creative assets consistently and strategically to enhance brand recognition and emotional connection.

• Michaela Hopkins: Highlights the necessity for both VRBO and Duluth to deepen their brand engagement and explore creative expansions without compromising their core identity.

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Key Takeaways

• VRBO's Whole Home Strategy: A focused approach that differentiates VRBO from Airbnb but requires ongoing commitment to brand differentiation and emotional storytelling to sustain market presence.

• Duluth Trading's Distinctive Humor: Effective use of humor and unique visual assets has solidified Duluth's position in the workwear market, with challenges arising in expanding appeal without diluting brand identity.

• Creative Consistency: Both brands benefit from maintaining consistent creative elements that reinforce their identity while strategically adapting to reach broader audiences.

• Commitment to Strategy: Long-term success for both VRBO and Duluth hinges on their ability to stay committed to their proven strategies while remaining adaptable to market shifts and consumer feedback.

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This summary encapsulates the in-depth discussions and strategic insights shared by Fergus O’Carroll and his guests on the first episode of "Spot On." For marketers and strategists, the episode offers valuable lessons on brand differentiation, creative execution, and the challenges of expanding brand appeal.

Transcript

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O'Carroll in Chicago. I've got a couple of big announcements today. The biggest one is that I am thrilled to announce that OnStrategy Showcase is now the official podcast partner of the Effie's Worldwide. Yeah, it's pretty amazing and this is a great moment for our show. We've built something special here and partnering with the most prestigious international effectiveness brand is amazing to us. This partnership will ensure that together we'll continue to amplify great work coming from great brands and talented people. We'll be recording content and making appearances at FE Award Galas and producing frequent episodes and specials throughout the year that showcase the best of FE Award winning campaigns and thought leadership. We'll share content across each other's platforms. We'll soon launch a section on our website dedicated to EFFIE Award winning case and content. Thanks to FE Worldwide CEO Tracy Alford and CMO Juliet Hagarth for their belief in our show and it is wonderful to be connected with all of these people. More to come over time. Our second announcement is that our live shows in Sydney and Auckland are set. Sydney is Wednesday evening, April 16, hosted by Ogilvy at their amazing WPP campus. Joining me will be Milla McPhee, CSO at Droga, Rupert Price, CSO at DDB Group, Stephen DeWolf, Chief Creative Officer at BMF, Fran Clayton, CSO at Ogilvy and Tom Martin, Partner and Chief Creative Officer at Special Group. Then a week later we'll be in Auckland and that is Wednesday evening, April 23rd and we're going to be hosted by Colenso BBDO. That night we'll have Rob Campbell, CSO Lisa De Vet, CSO at Dentsu, Rory Gallery, CSO at Special Group and Stevie Weber, she is CSO at Droga5. Tickets for both shows are now available on our website under the Live tour [e-mail] I hope to see you there. Hopefully we'll have two amazingly full houses for each of those shows and the third announcement is the start of something new. Today we are welcoming you to the first monthly episode of what we're calling Spot On. Each month I'm going to invite one or two strategists to join our panel of misfits. We'll share and talk about campaigns we admire. In this episode, we're going to be talking about VRBO and Duluth Trading Company. Now, sometimes our opinions will be spot on, hence the name of the show. Other times, not so much. And I Get that we're not always going to be perfect. Our opinions. But importantly, this isn't about criticizing work. It's about what we like about it and what we feel is powerful or challenging about the strategy. Unlike other regular episodes, none of the panelists have worked on the campaigns, so we're kind of basically clueless. So joining me today for this first episode from System One is SVP of Marketing Vanessa Chin from Tracksuit head of Marketing, Michaela Hopkins. And our wonderful guest strategist this month is Johnny Korpas, head of CommStrategy at BBDO in New York. Let's hope this all works out well. And thanks to System 1 and Tracksuit for making this new series possible. Enjoy. So we have two campaigns we're going to talk about today, and I'll share in a few minutes why we're doing each of these campaigns. I selected these two campaigns this time around. That may change in the future with different episodes. Different guests can pick campaigns and we'll talk through them. But first, let's welcome Vanessa from System 1. Great to have you here.

[Vanessa Chin]

Thanks so much. Glad to be here.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Johnny Korpas is our guest strategist for this episode. Jonny, thanks for being here.

[Johnny Korpas]

Good morning. Bright and early for me.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yes. 7am on the west coast. And Mikayla is here from Tracksuit. Good to have you back or good to have you here.

[Michaela Hopkins]

Thank you, Fergus. Nice to be here.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So, as we're going to do, we're going to rotate a different planner in for each of these episodes. So that'll a fun thing to do and a fun thing to experiment with. Johnny, what do you think of this idea of doing sort of campaigns and just sort of riffing and having fun without going deep?

[Johnny Korpas]

I love it. I think this is the thing that planners naturally do anyway. Like in our own little pods, we see campaigns, we say, what did you think about that? Or maybe they tried to do that. So I love that we're bringing that informal kind of riffing that the planners naturally do. But I love your point earlier around. This isn't about critiquing and really delving into it because I think that's the part of our industry which I tend to stray away from. You know, on, on LinkedIn when people start to tear down campaigns that they didn't work on and they don't know the realities and the variables of what the clients brought. So I love how we're doing this as a way to almost just give a peek into what people in the industry think of work and discuss it. In a really fun way. So I'm super excited to try it.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Why don't we start off with our first. Our first campaign. So I'll talk a little bit about vrbo, and I have admired this verbo work for a long time. Some of the work was done at Wieden and Kennedy, and some of the work we're going to talk about today because it was, I think, primarily Anomaly. Right, Johnny, because you came from Anomaly before you went to bbdo, and you didn't work directly on this, right?

[Johnny Korpas]

No, no, I didn't work directly on this, but this happened while I was in the building. So I know enough to be able to give some insights, but definitely not insider trading, if that's the thing that happened to planners on this podcast.

[Vanessa Chin]

Oh, good. That means I can look you in the eye during this entire overview.

[Johnny Korpas]

Exactly.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So here's what we know about vrbo, and you guys can jump in. Here's what I know about vrbo. It's owned by Expedia. Its main competition is Airbnb and other hotel chains. But what's increasingly interesting to me about VRBO is it has this whole home proposition, and it's had it since its founding. I remember an amazingly funny and provocative spot. And it was basically centered around this guy who comes into a home, and because it was a shared home, he goes into the shower and there's a bar of soap there covered in hair. And so it was like reflecting upon how gross it can be if you're sharing a home with somebody else. And they did a whole series of spots around that. I always remember that it used to be that Airbnb, when they kicked it all off, started it off as being shared home. So you would rent a room in somebody's house. So for vrbo, I don't know, they're kind of a challenger brand. I was debating whether they would even be considered that, Johnny. But they're definitely a far smaller player than Airbnb. But what's interesting about the whole home proposition, focusing simply on that, is the fact that Airbnb has about 80% of its reservations are whole home reservations. So that for me, I was like, is that a smart strategy to focus on something that is almost a category, Norm? Johnny?

[Johnny Korpas]

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think you could look at that and you say, oh, they're almost at parity. There's only a tiny bit of differentiation. But I think sometimes in really cluttered categories, you've got to go at that 20% that you have and try and find the drama, the differentiation, the distinction in that. I mean, if you think about other categories, you know, the auto category or beverages, you know, which beer tastes better than the other beer or which soda tastes better with food, but they still find an interesting way to make that claim and bring the other parts of the brand into it. So I think it's like in a world where things are almost at parity and you're being outspent, I don't, I don't mind that they've leaned into the small advantage that they have, albeit it might be very, very small. But I think they found a way to bring it to life in other ways. Not just as a pure play like RTB compared to the other person's rtb. I think it also comes into the tonality, the talent, all these different things that we'll go into, but as a strategy. I think sometimes it's very hard when we work on categories where there's not much differentiation. And as one of my old bosses used to say, you know, you got to find the drama. You just got to find the drama, the point of difference and really emphasize that. And so while to us it might not seem like, like a big point of difference, I think if it is a small point of difference, it's worth focusing on.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So, Michaela, how did these brands look when you look at Airbnb versus, like VRBO versus Hilton, etc. Yeah, where did they look?

[Michaela Hopkins]

Yeah, I mean, I think even just to take a step back and to jump on Johnny's point there, like, I think they're attempt to carve out a very clear position around whole homes makes strategic sense, logically. But I do think it makes them a little bit commercially vulnerable. And I mean that by vulnerable, if it is not supported by serious brand investment. And it's super interesting actually looking in the category in our tracksuite dashboard. So when you look at the category of accommodation, VRBO's awareness sits at 150 million people, which is 60% of the category. So 60% of the category are aware of VRBox. That is a full 50 million behind Airbnb's category ownership, which is about 85% or one hundred and sixty five million people. So simply put, like, most people are thinking about Airbnb, which does limit the effectiveness of their swim lane play, in my opinion.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

And so I'm surprised that VRBO is that large.

[Michaela Hopkins]

You are?

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah. In terms of. So remind me again of what that number was.

[Michaela Hopkins]

Vrbo versus essentially it's 60 awareness versus 86. I think it's Interesting. When you look at it in comparison to the wider category. You've got Marriott, you've got booking.com, everybody else is playing in that upper third and much closer to Airbnb. Like, I'm based in New York now, but down in Australasia, booking.com is everywhere. Whereas Vrbo, we just don't see the same.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah, we see booking.com here for travel, but not necessarily specifically for whole home, et cetera, and for shared homes.

[Johnny Korpas]

I think for us, we think people are brand loyal in this category, like, oh, I'm a die hard Airbnb person. But I think it also depends on by region or where you're at. Like, there are some cities in the US where if you look at both, you probably have a different property spread or you have a bigger concentration of vrbo. So I think what they're really trying to do is fight the fight so that people still know who they are. So, like Mikayla said, they're still in the fight. You know, they're not trailing so far behind, but they're finding a way to double down, I think, on the one thing that still keeps them different. And I think they do that. And we'll get into the work with the way that they emphasize the whole home thing and how they compete with Airbnb. Because I think at the time when this work came out, Airbnb was very much focusing on. Do you remember that campaign where you could book iconic homes that were in film and television and culture? So I think they were really leaning into the pop culture trendiness, like this buzz around it. Whereas I think this angle of whole homes was very much more targeted at families, targeted at. It's. It's a safer stay. It's one that's reliable. It's one that you know exactly what you're getting. And I think that kind of combination with the whole home message actually pairs really nicely well together again in the world of you just got to make do with what you've got and try and find a way to stand out. And I think we'll get into it. I feel like the VRBO work does a really good job of punching above its weight, even though when you strip it down and look at it super logically, you're like, oh, yeah, they're basically offering the exact same product. I think that's true of so many categories. So as a planner looking at this, I think this is part of our job, is to find the interesting thing to point creatives at, to then find a way to make it different. So I think they're doing a good job. I mean, I was surprised with Michaela's figures that they were even that close considering the gulf in spend and the gulf just in latent awareness. So I mean, I think, I think they're doing what they can and they're doing a good job.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Any thoughts, Vanessa?

[Vanessa Chin]

Yeah, Johnny, you're spot on in terms of what this work does. The thing that struck me the most is how protective the viewers are of the families of the stories that were told. You know, why are the children not allowed inside or you know, why are the hosts being so mean? All of those components you really, this work really is tapping into that emotional tension and building that, you know, in comparison VRBO to Airbnb, what Airbnb does is building that tension not as seriously about safety, about how frustrating and annoying hotels are. So that's like a nagging, like hotels are naggingly annoying. What VRBO is tapping into is much deeper in terms of safety of the family and protecting these children. I mean that's, that's powerful. So that's really what the verbo work is bringing to the table.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

We'll be right back. Are celebrities the secret sauce to add effectiveness? What about music or brand characters? You can predict and improve advertising's commercial impact with System1's test yout ad Platform. Test yout Ad is the creative effectiveness platform that measures consumers emotional responses predicting the sales and growth impacts of advertising. You can test creative for linear and connected tv, digital, outdoor, audio and print channels from early concepts through to finished film plus Access System One's Test yout Ad Premium platform. With more than 150,000 ads in the database, you get the most accurate view of your category with results and rankings updated daily so create with confidence. To learn more, visit system1group.com that's system1group.com want always on brand metrics that deliver value to stakeholders. This episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Check it [e-mail]. that's gotracksuit.com. now back to the show. So here's my thing. I would think that if anybody from Ehrenberg Bass was on this call right now, they'd say the danger for VRBO is that they're building the category for a whole home, but most of that business is gonna go to Airbnb because they're the biggest dog on the block. Any thoughts on that? Cause that's a warning that a lot of people have across different categories is if all you're doing is building the category rather than building your brand, you end up driving more business to the big gorilla, which in this case would be Airbnb for whole home.

[Michaela Hopkins]

I think it's a fair call out. I feel like Airbnb, though, is also, you know, has a massive role to play in actually building this category. I think what's interesting is that when you actually go beyond just the straight awareness and mental availability and you look further down that funnel, yes, VRBO has built strong awareness in a pretty, pretty competitive category, but I think where they, whether vulnerable is actually the brand play and the preference piece. We can see that VRBO's preference sits at about 4%. Obviously, preference is the hardest metric to move, but you look at Airbnbs and It sits around 17% of the category. And so once somebody uses an Airbnb, they're much more likely to prefer that. And that sits in a very different space to vrbo, which, yeah, whether they've actually locked in that distinctiveness with their brand is maybe the question that we can get into as we look at the work.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

What do you think, Jonny?

[Johnny Korpas]

Yeah, I mean, on the Ehrenberg Bass of it all, I mean, Airbnb is the category leader. So in theory, they're the ones who are building the category. And I think it is smart in a way, because if you think back, I mean, all of us probably have a friend who had a horror Airbnb story. It was a really big thing that they had to address in Reddit. And all of this stuff that there was this. Even though they were the category leader, there was this underlying thing of shit, what's going to happen to me in mine? And even if they did do whole homes, there were different stor came out about things that happened even though you weren't sharing a room. So I think they, they, they definitively tried to say, hey, if Airbnb is going to be a little bit more fun, a little bit more culture leaning or, you know, a little Bit more playing in that space. The good and the bad, the younger consumers, the younger people at Airbnb. Let's be a bit more of that stabilizing force. To Vanessa's point, you know, let's focus on the family. Let's focus on a really premium experience. Let's focus on making it more about that so that people do have a different proposition to buy into, even though at face value. Yes. It's like, I'm going to Palm Springs and I need a house for the weekend. You still have, there's still something to clutch onto where in choosing vrbo, I think you do have a picture of what that means based on the communications they've had. So for me, again, I think they're doing what they can to compete in such a tough category. Whether it's a long lasting strategy, I think that's what we can debate, and whether it's enduring and differentiated enough. But I think it's like, you know.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

But they've been doing it for 20 years. I mean, they're committed. I want to play some of the spots for the listeners. The first one I loved recently, it's the Nick Saban work that's been running through college football. For those who don't know, Nick Saban is a former and famous college football coach here. Very strict, very rules based. And so what they've done, VRBO produced a spot featuring Nick Saban as if he's the host. And the whole, the whole edge on it is like, what's Nick Saban now doing now that he's no longer coaching? And what you're hearing here is him sharing with a couple who's coming to rent the home. What the rules of the home are that they will share with him. Is there a pool check in?

[Rupert Price]

Time is 3.

[Johnny Korpas]

It's 2:55.

[Rupert Price]

I know.

[Johnny Korpas]

Is this what he's doing now?

[Rupert Price]

Have a seat. As your host, I have some rules. First, no showers longer than five minutes. This isn't a spa. There's no streaming, only cable television.

[Vanessa Chin]

Any games for the kids?

[Rupert Price]

No games, no fun. The kids aren't even allowed in the house. That's the rule. There's a great barbecue outside, but don't touch that. How'd you guys get inside? 2 flush maximum per bathroom visit.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yes.

[Vanessa Chin]

Scotch.

[Rupert Price]

You guys got about 10 minutes because this is daddy time in the tub.

[Michaela Hopkins]

Meanwhile, at Averbo, when other vacation rentals make you share your turf with a host, try one you have all to yourself.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

The second spot I want to play is a little bit different. It's less focused on an individual and more about the proposition of whole home, just you and your people. Here's that spot.

[Vanessa Chin]

The thing that's different about a VRBO vacation home. You always have the whole place to yourself. No stranger at the dinner table making things awkward or in another room taking up space. It's just you and your people. Because why would you ever share your vacation home with someone you wouldn't share your vacation with? When you look at the way that the work's tested, and not every spot tests the same when it comes to vrbo, but what you're seeing is this negative tension that's built and, you know, which is really actually great for the most powerful, emotionally intense work, which is what we look for in really great campaigns. And so when we look at giving guidance for creating television spots, we do agree it's okay to have negative emotions. So it's okay to feel disgust or fear or angry or mad at Nick Saban about the work. But you really do need to spend enough time leaving positive associations and clarity about what your brand is all about. And that's really where VRBO should look. To focus, to strengthen as they look, to gain share.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So it's the percentage of that spot that is related to the positive.

[Vanessa Chin]

Correct? Correct. You need to give at least a good, ideally about 5 to 10 seconds of positivity of positive emotions about the solution. And in the work, there are a variety of things that you'll see pop up. For those that really enjoyed the work, love the storytelling of the family. The. The locations are absolutely stunning, beautiful and clean, and, you know, you're getting to that. So we tested, you know, all the work against general, you know, general population. A sample of 150 people. You'd like to see the majority of people having those positive emotions about. About the brand. Vrbo in this case, I mean, I.

[Michaela Hopkins]

Think that you're only. Only your people is such a smart reframing of the entire proposition. And it's not specifically focused on the safety or the privacy or the space. I think it definitely leans into that emotional resonance. But it did. It did have, for me, a sort of safe predictability. It felt good. It had a nostalgic element to it, which I think was really good from the storytelling perspective. And it does make them sort of. It was more about, like, less the destination and more about who you're worth, which does make them slightly distinct from Airbnb, sometimes more wonderlust, solo traveler angle. But was it unforgettable? I'm not a hundred percent.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah, that's a tough one. Johnny, Johnny, what do you think?

[Johnny Korpas]

Hey, no, no, I love it. And to be honest, I only really learned about Nick Saban because one of the people on my team was like a die hard Alabama fan. And so I think there's like this real inside, if, you know, you know, element to understanding the spot, really getting his personality and really like the multiplier effect of using a talent the way they're widely known in culture and then doubling down on that. And so I think perhaps Mikaela, I think as like an outsider to this market, you know, and an outsider to college football. Admittedly, like I was as well, I was like, oh, so he's known as this. It's like, yeah, he is notorious for his rule and all of this stuff. And then once I started to hear a little bit more, more about that, I was like, oh, wow, this is a really compelling way to portray him. And typically before this, because he was an active coach, he wasn't big in the media, he didn't do a lot of tv. Like, I think it was a. For me, the execution was pronounced more in how they used the talent and why they used the talent. And obviously looking under the hood, I was within the building. But VRBO had a big college football sponsorship that they had that they were trying to really build association with that category. And when you think about it, know, lots of people travel to lots of different places to watch games. So it's like inherently tied to the behavior of the category. But previously they had just done, you know, what people do when they do a big sponsorship, they just put like out of home ads in stadiums and do popups and stuff like that. And so the magic for me here, and maybe I'm a little bit biased because I know a little bit of what went into it, what went into it was the tapping into the insane fan base. And, and if you look on YouTube, you look at all of the comments, you look at everything, every college football person thought this was a home run. Even though they, if you loved Saban, if you hated Saban, a lot of people don't like Alabama because people don't like the winning team usually.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

But you don't even have to know Saban for that to be a great spot. I mean, it is sort of a great way of representing what it might be like to share a home with somebody, somebody's personal home. And you know, rules have always been a part of that. So it doesn't have to be that, you know, Nick Saban, but it sure as hell helps because it elevates the humor so much more.

[Vanessa Chin]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Michaela Hopkins]

I think that's like a really fair insight into your point as well, Johnny. Like, I didn't think the other AD sort of drove that fame driving creativity, but this one as absolutely an outsider who doesn't know or didn't know who he was. Like, the humor that was injected into the creative, I thought was really strong. I thought the other ones had the other pieces of work that we've been looking at all around the creating memories of only the people that you actually want around you. Like that is a big human truth and a really smart brand move. I just wasn't sure that those really had this distinctiveness. But I thought the one with Nick was funny and it's. Yeah, I think a lot of people have related to it, even if you didn't know who he was.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see. Vanessa, we've got to know how these things scored through system one. Can you tell us how these spots scored?

[Vanessa Chin]

Sure. The spots that featured the more emotional storytelling of the family, those were pacing above the category average. So when you think about travel and holiday, the category average score is about 2.8. And these scored above that, which is what you want to see. But something that I noticed in the entire category, frankly, was there really wasn't a brand that had strong brand attribution. So, you know, a good is maybe an 85 out of 100. That 85% of the respondents by the end of the work knew who the brand was for. And some of this work, the Nick Saban work, was under that, but almost all of the work. And I think that has to do with. I know we've talked a little bit about this, but this category keeps changing its mind on how it wants to approach the campaign. So even within this small set of work that we're talking about with vrbo, really, you know, more, more somber safety, emotional storytelling with the families versus this humor that Nick Saban is bringing. And that's a distinct change for your campaign approach. And you really do need to give your audience an opportunity to catch up. And that doesn't mean that if, you know, a spot doesn't score strongly at the first go. But that just means that if you, you know, to the point that Johnny was making, if you have all of these football fans going crazy about this campaign online, how are you going to make. Make some strategic decisions so that every time they see the work, they know it's for verbo. So whether or not it's you know, visual components, audio components, the way that who they choose as the characters in the storytelling, how are you going to start making some of those consistent decisions so that there's. That you can gain that familiarity for the campaign and for the brand, and then you can build on that?

[Johnny Korpas]

I think that's like the. The provocation for me is, you know, sometimes when we do these testing, it's like very isolated. And so it should, because it's a test. But I think it does disregard the role that that one asset plays in a bigger ecosystem of work. So if it was just a witspot test, better than which, and you make a blanket decision, I think we could do that. But if you think about it. Oh, in the scheme of owning college football, in the scheme of driving this huge famed and earned PR capability, the lacks of which you could never outspend Airbnb. So you need to get your outsized advantage through and earned. That played on the Pat McAfee show, and they interviewed Coach Saban. And so I think it's hard. I think that's the dilemma we get into a little bit with planning and testing and measurement is if we purely went on testing a TV ad, that wouldn't have passed to your point, Vanessa, because it wasn't above the category norms. But I think what we found in culture is it's completely smashed all the other types of metrics. And now it's about. To your point, how do we find ways to make it a little bit more distinct to verbo, either through video or audio cues, which I totally agree with.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Okay, awesome. Let's go to the second campaign, which I find hilarious. They were a guest on the show a couple of weeks ago. Duluth Trading Company. Now Duluth Trading Company. They sell workwear clothing to men, mostly to men. And they own all of their own channels. They have retail brick and mortar stores, they have their own online store, et cetera. They're not licensed out to anybody else. They don't appear in any other channels, so they own the whole thing. They're a near $1 billion business. So this is not a small challenger brand by any means. And what I love about them is they compete against Carhartt, they compete against brands like Wrangler and some smaller brands. And Carhartt and Wrangler are major brands, and they play in very different worlds. When you look at Carhartt, Carhartt has done a great job taking workwear and moving it into, like, fashion and popular culture in the same way that Timberland has with its boots. They've really built a brand that is able to flex into different spaces. Now with Duluth, Duluth has stayed in the workwear space and they have built this near billion dollar piece of business by focusing deeply in their audience and on their audience. Now, keeping in mind that these guys started, they were started by three carpenters many decades ago. So they're in the trades deeply and they've done an amazing job of building a connection, an emotional connection with that audience. Their proposition is seriously great products without the seriousness. So humor and masculinity are big characteristics of this brand. And we'll play some of the spots a little bit later. These have such a unique style and a unique look, Johnny, that. What was. Were you familiar with Duluth before this and what did you think of them?

[Johnny Korpas]

I was familiar with them, but admittedly I'd only seen a couple of them. I didn't realize, oh, it's like a brand that competes with Carhartt. I didn't realize the category that they fully played in. But I do remember the spots. I mean, when I watched it, I was like, this is like the Red Bull of workwear. You know, how red animated style. But it's so distinct. The humor is consistent. You can apply it in lots of different ways. I was like. Like, I've never found an analog for the. For the Red Bull thing. And I was like, oh, this is brilliant work. I think in terms of capturing the tone of voice, the humor for their audience, I think it's spot on. I think the graphic style is really memorable and I'm curious to see how it tests. And I know they're trying to. I mean, just visually it looked like they were using a lot of the colors and the distinctiveness and the palette of the brand, which I'm sure tested well. But overall, I think it just came across as a brand who knew who they were, who knew who their consumers were, and found an interesting creative and admittedly probably relatively low production lift version of doing that. Even though the animation style and finding an amazing animator is super rare, and I'm sure they work with someone very, very talented, it's not like a live action thing that they've got to go and shoot. And I think the animated nature of it actually adds to the charm of the humor. I don't know if you found that as well, Mikayla.

[Michaela Hopkins]

A hundred percent, Johnny. Like, I think their distinct identity and sort of that back of the napkin style is so different, so distinct. I was very, very impressed with the entirety of this brand. Like, especially when you think about Koha or Carhartt who's obviously gone to this mass appeal, broad, sort of reaching audience that definitely resonates across both job types, generations. Like, I feel like it's almost a badge of honor to wear Carhartt now. And I think they've done a really good job of that. So just tightening and targeting almost a construction owner rather than the construction worker is a really smart play from Duluth. And yeah, I felt, I felt good. I felt connected. Even as somebody who's probably not their primary audience, I thought their work was really strong.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

What do you think, Vanessa?

[Vanessa Chin]

Yeah, I mean, as a distinctive asset geek, I love all of the choices. I mean, the consistency, you know, with the, with the visual approach and even the sound effects effects. I mean, I felt like as I kept watching it and watching, just really, really smart, you know, audible cues throughout the work that really gave it this, you know, that extra, like that extra emotional intensity that you look for in the work. And certainly with Carhartt, I mean, Carhartt really has the target effect behind it. You know, once it's sold at Target and it's available to everybody and it's got these really funky colors, you can see how, how the, the category is moving. But with this particular work, I know we'll probably, you know, dive into maybe more scores later, but this is in the top, this work is in the top 25% of the entire sports and leisure category. So that's going up against Nike. Right. And this, this work is up there in the top 25% of the best work. I loved hearing in your podcast about that. They're from Madison, Wisconsin, the agency that's creating the work. So I love that from a Midwestern stand point. But yeah, the consistency is really working for them. What would make, you know, this work even stronger is maybe if I didn't test it against a general population and tested it against, you know, the specific target audience of, you know, male versus female. Some of the responses that we get from the work is that it is a little aggressive. So I'm a female and I'm not relating to this work because it, you know, it's talking about men's underwear and men's private parts and things like that. So. But yeah, it's really, really strong work.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Awesome. Yeah, I loved it too. The agency in Madison, Wisconsin is Planet Propaganda. They've been doing that network for, I think, 15 to 16 years. And what I loved on the show when they came on was I always love hearing about these sorts of restraints or constraints. They actually came up with that illustration idea because they had to produce an ad 20 years ago and the problem was bandwidth. They wanted to do a direct response ad and because they couldn't afford to do live action and there wasn't the bandwidth to run something with a higher pixelation or a higher resolution, they ended up sketching this out and simply did it that way and ran it and then it just became iconic. And they also were originally a catalog marketer and they used to actually do illustrations of their products in full color. So I love stories and backdrops like that. Let's talk a little bit about the work. I think as you guys mentioned, from a distinctive brand assets point of view, all of the different levels, you've got an amazing voiceover, you've got this really unique illustrated style, and you've got this body type that they play to which works so well for that working class American because their target audience is the trades, the plumbers, the electricians, et cetera. It's also, you know, farmers. And they have, at least they claim that they have a great sense of humor and they look at this as being something that they can completely relate to. So this is very much that sort of a blue collar look and feel that you see throughout it. So here's a couple of spots from the campaign.

[Fran Clayton]

What average underwear feels like what Duluth trading Buck Naked underwear feels like. Duluth trading Buck Naked underwear feels like wearing nothing at all. No pinch, no stink, no sweat. Get a pair [e-mail] crouching in average jeans. Crouching in Duluth trading Ballroom jeans. Duluth trading Ballroom jeans. The crotch gusset gives you room to crouch without singing soprano. Get a pair [e-mail] okay, so I.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Look at that and I've loved it for a number of reasons. As I mentioned before we ran the spots. The other one is I love what they've done with their product strategy. Their naming is fantastic. So here's an example of some of the names of some of the products. Buck naked underwear, Funkno underwear, Ballroom Jeans. Johnny. It's just sort of, it's. It's almost the perfect example of how you can take branding and the attributes of branding and carry an identity and carry it all the way from the work right down to retail.

[Johnny Korpas]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, at. At Anomaly there was a saying, you know, everything is media and it's that, you know, anything can become a way to communicate your brand and what you stand for. And I think that's an incredible example where even the naming of your product embodies who you are as a brand and the Tonality and the sense of humor. And I think, you know, so brands do this, but the way that they've done it, leaning into humor, I think, is really unique. And. And humor these days is a really hard thing to nail. I think that's why a lot of brands, you know, try and play with it. They don't get it right. Being. Being funny is hard, but I think they were able to do it because they were so authentic. They weren't trying to be funny. They were just reflecting the realities of this category. You know, the product innovation that was needed. And to your point, Fergus, they just knew their consumer really, really well. And so I, I, again, the distinctive brand asset thing even trickles down to product nomenclature. That, to me, is just so smart. And I think, to your story earlier. I think it does. It's interesting how limitation leads to liberation. The fact that they had all of these constraints led to that. And I often think when I see amazing illustrated work or animated styles like that, I'm like, why don't more people do that? Why. Why isn't that a thing that we commonly explore? And it's another one of my hot takes. I'm like, is that just dictated by the art director that's on that particular account is interested in animation or has seen some great animating? Because I look at work like that, and I look at Red Bull and I look at other examples, and I go, given how well it tests, given how much easier it is to make, and given all of these amazing things we're talking about it, I. I'm like, why don't more brands do it? So again, as a planner, I don't know, because that, to me, is more of a craft and execution and creative choice. But I do wonder why more brands don't try and take up that style. Because it seems really effective. Vanessa?

[Vanessa Chin]

Yeah, I worked on Kellogg's for a few years, and I had the pleasure of working on Pop Tarts, and that's very similar. And at a time when the cereal category was suffering with Pop Tarts, with that animation style, we were able to push the humor as far as it would go. And absolutely my favorite internal creative reviews that I've ever had in my entire career, the ability that you have to flex it, you know, if you need to be. You know, you can flex different kinds of humor, but you have this liberty, like this work does, to really push the humor to a place that makes people uncomfortable. And what that results in is a reduction of neutrality. Neutrality. You know, offending a certain subset of people isn't the worst thing that you can do. The worst thing that you can do is make everyone feel nothing. And what this work does is it really collapses the amount of people that are feeling neutral or nothing about the work. And that was my experience on Pop Tarts and definitely what we're seeing in the Duluth work.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

God, I wonder how well Red Bull would test. Have you any. Any. I know I'm putting you on the spot. Finesse, really?

[Vanessa Chin]

Why?

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Well, tell us what you know.

[Vanessa Chin]

Really, it just. It comes to the consistency that really is the game. The familiarity that you have you. When you see the work, you immediately know it's Red Bull. We know that it's a good idea. It's a, you know, it's a famous campaign. And there's something emotionally, you know, with your right brain that like lights on fire when you see a campaign that's well loved and consistent and they. And then it's like that 80, 20 rule, 80 familiar, 20% new. You see that 20% of that new story and it's really entertaining and people just absolutely love it. And it's like off the charts with all of our testing time and time again.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Interesting. Michaela, what do you think?

[Michaela Hopkins]

Yeah, I actually have a question for you, Vanessa, particularly around the illustration perspective. It is so distinct. It makes total sense. From your experience, how did you see the ability to scale efficiently using that style of creative as opposed to at navigating stereotypical talent?

[Fergus O'Carroll]

What do you mean by scale, Mikaela.

[Michaela Hopkins]

In terms of being able to push something out and reach mass awareness and drive something across so many different channels and have that consistency over time as opposed to working to talent in your traditional format?

[Vanessa Chin]

You know, certain creative approaches lend themselves easier. So you may have a production approach that's all about like 3D modeling, and frankly, that is expensive and time consuming. There are other illustration styles, like Red Bull, like Duluth, you know, like Pop Tarts, that you can churn out an endless amount of ideas. And whether or not, you know, obviously we saw, you know, Pop Tarts take over football, you know, in the last. In the last year. If you have great brand characters, simple illustration styles, you can frankly use it for anything.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So here's the. Here's the issue. And we actually brought this up just in the last two minutes of the episode when we had the Luthonic. I didn't know it going in, and the CMO brought it up. And it's one of the reasons he was hired, because he's relatively new with the brand, is the ability to extend this into women's wear because it is such a masculine brand. It is so rooted in this sort of interpretation of masculinity and this sort of rawness and irreverence and humor to appeal that seems to appeal to men. Would it have universal appeal? And so he's been brought in to try that. Now they've tried a couple of different executions in this same style, but by their own admission, Vanessa, it hasn't worked well. And they are now pivoting to some live action work for the women's line, which is fascinating to me because you got nearly 20 years of equity in that campaign. It's got all those distinctive assets and you might have to pivot. They seem to feel that they have to pivot. What are your thoughts on that, Vanessa? Because I know you guys also had a chance to sort of test that the one execution they did within this existing style that was targeting women to.

[Vanessa Chin]

Echo Johnny's hot take, I would say stick with it. So the work that we tested again against the general audience, males and females, it tested the same. It tested the same. People really appreciated the humor. The branding recognition was consistent. If anything, in the verbatims, you saw more positive adoption for the work because they did obviously tone down the jokes and they strategically, strategically brought in an animal to be checking out the woman, you know, the woman's butt instead of another man, which probably would have sent it, you know, interesting that they made those strategic decisions and in the end the work performed as strongly as the other work. Different verbatims, but in different responses of what exactly they liked about it, but just as strong.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

What do you think, Johnny? I mean, when you have such a challenge like that, that could be. That could cause you to have to tone down the entire campaign rather than having toned down executions that target are differently tonality changing for women's wear.

[Johnny Korpas]

Yeah, I think it all comes down to commitment. Right. Like, do you let a couple of perhaps explorations or executions that didn't quite land completely make you pivot your strategy? I think that's the reality of short termism and the pressures that clients and agencies are on that the minute something seems like it's not working as well as the original, the knee jerk reaction is to, oh, we've got to completely upend it. But I think to Vanessa's point, I would stay committed to it and say, hey, what else could we do? Is there any more audio things that we could add or how could we maybe do some different type of consumer research to figure out a style that would land? Because I think Walking away from it again would be such a, a, such a big deal. And I think sometimes you got to get it wrong to get it right and it's okay to get it wrong. A couple of times I, I say that it's not my money, but, you know, you just got to stay committed and find a way to, to make it work because you've got 20 years of all this positive stuff. I mean, Vanessa, you said it's in the top 25% of, of testing in the sports category. Like arguably one of the most like iconic and, and competitive and, and, and loved categories. So book. I mean, yeah, I, I, I would keep sticking with it. I, I know it, it can be tough when things aren't working out or the results are coming through, but I think that that's where you show your commitment to the type of work you want to make and the type of creativity that you want to be known for.

[Michaela Hopkins]

I agree, John. Like, I completely echo that entire sentiment. I think like, how to appeal to women without losing a distinct edge is obviously the question on their minds. But like, my personal belief is that women are funny as fuck. They don't need a watered down version of Duluth and they still want that credibility, they still want that functionality, the comfort delivered with the same sense of humor that Duluth is known for. Like, I think the TLDR is keep the humor funny. Works for both genders.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Yeah, I just don't, I just don't see. Because they have produced, and I have huge respect for them, they have produced some live action spots targeting women and I just don't think both of those things can coexist. I think you have to pick the dog you're going to bet on. I just can't see it. There's a couple of produced spots out there. We'll put them on our website on this episode's page so you guys can have a look at it. So the big challenge then in wrapping up here, the big challenge for them is making this pivot and being able to see if they can significantly grow the business by talking to and offering a great product line towards women and then going back to vrbo. And I'd love to get your guys sort of summary thoughts on each of these. I mean, for me, for vrbo, I'm still sort of unsure about whether VRBO is building the category versus building its own brand. Maybe they're incredibly happy with being able to have levels of growth that they can see because they're a smaller player. So levels of growth doesn't require them to Take over a category, they can build a really strong business just off of a smaller percentage of the overall market. Maybe that's. That's where they're happy. They've definitely got a unique look. Love the Saban work. Would love to see that humor played out in new ways going forward. Jonny, any final lasting comments on either one of the two cases from today?

[Johnny Korpas]

Yeah, I think with the VRBO thing, sort of what we just talked about with Duluth, it's like, hey, you struck gold, and there was something there that really resonated. What's part two? How do we stay committed to this partnership with college football and world building? We talk in planning a lot about world, and sometimes you release something and then you go, wow, that went really well. Let's build around it. So I think, to your point, Fergus, I'd love for them to build around that, because perhaps their point of distinction is less about whole homes, but more about how they deliver that message in a really unique, funny, differentiated way. So that's what I'm excited to see what's next from vrbo. And I think the worst that could be is it's a one and done, and they walk away from that style next year. So we'll see. And then for Duluth. Yeah, I. I'm so curious now. Now I want to see what some of those live action pieces are, because to me, we've just spoken about what VRBO needs to do. Duluth is doing that they found their style that's working, and then all of a sudden, they're in the opposite, you know, bucket going, should we walk back from that, given it's not working for this one product, this one category. So I'd look at to see what both are doing in the future. I think they're both coming from a different point of view, and I've just loved chopping it up with all of you about this in a really casual way. And I think this is the type of discussion that I think is really healthy for our industry. It's like we're just trying to find the positives and we're trying to unpick and unpack, but in a way where we're trying to analyze the work without this fine tooth comb. Because the reality is, making great work is so fucking hard. The meetings, the amount of people in the room, the amount of people that say no, that I think you can stand far back in LinkedIn and just tear shit down really easily. But I think what we're doing is really good. Trying to pressure test the good stuff, which feels like the type of stuff that planners naturally do anyway.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

So, Vanessa, how about you? Any closing thoughts, advice?

[Vanessa Chin]

Sure. For vrbo, I would say they have an opportunity to really dig into this concept of being premium over Airbnb, where VRBO needs to double down is what makes their campaigns distinctive. So, you know, they found something really interesting in this football partnership. They're getting a lot of traction there. How can they extend that to, you know, the kind of humor? Stick to it. What are those visual distinctive assets? How can you get this campaign to the point where everyone sees it and knows it's for vrbo and stick with that over time? So that would be my thoughts on VRBO for Duluth. Like Johnny said, they struck gold with this distinctive look and feel. I've seen it work, you know, with Red Bull, with Pop Tarts. You can see. See this humor, Like Mikayla said, work for both audiences. Keep going with the jokes, more internal reviews, come up with more ideas, get them out there, try them. Try a lot of different ideas, but stick with the core components of the campaign that we know has worked over time.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

Mikayla?

[Michaela Hopkins]

Yeah, nicely said, Vanessa. I think for me, and I know I had a bit of a spicy take on vrbo's positioning. Like, it's a smart positioning play, owning that specific need rather than trying to fight that genius battle. But. But that positioning without that commitment and that distinctiveness is such an uphill battle. We see it in the data. It's hard to push people through the funnel, and they definitely do still have some work around converting from top to bottom. And then I think with Duluth very much in the same boat as everybody else, like, they don't need to change who they are. I think they just need to bring more people into their story. Like, their work has such that real human element to it, particularly for people who want to work with their hands and feel really proud about it, all underlaid with such distinct humor. Like, I'd hate for them to lose that.

[Fergus O'Carroll]

God, I would love to hear from somebody at Anomaly around where they sort of are, from the client, about where they stand after the Sabin work. Was it as successful for them as it might appear to have been? Because I look at what Dr. Pepper has done with college ball, too, and they have built over a long period of time, they have been involved in college sports, and it seems to be the only place where I ever see Dr. Pepper. It's that whole campaign that they've been doing which has been amazingly funny. And so it'll be interesting to see if that's where Anomaly and the brand begin to continue to extend upon what they've learned from Sabin and how that works in the mix of everything else. So thank you all. This has been a ton of fun for our first episode of Spoton. I don't know if we're spot on, but we had a good time talking about it. It's great to have our guest. It's Michaela Hopkins, head of marketing for Track Suit. She's in New York. It's Vanessa Chin, SVP marketing at System One here in Chicago. And it's Johnny Corpus, head of comm strategy at BBDO New York, our guest strategist for today. Amazing first start, guys. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Thank you for your time. And we will see everyone on the next episode.